To sin or not to sin

[darkeyes]

Last nite Kate and I went out to dinner. The poor cow really needed a nice night out and so I took her to her favourite restaurant on other side of town. While there an old guy tootled over and it turned out he was her old parish minister. I didnt know him from Adam ( not you Adam.. gerroff!). He sat down for only a few minutes but he was quite a nice old coot, for a holy Jo... he had heard about us and didnt seem to get irked about it and certainly didnt give us the heavy religous anti lessie rant. He just gently tapped Kate's hand and reminded her of what he said when Kate had first began to explore her sexuality.. then he tootled off...

Nebby 2 the end I asked WTF he had said (and we are talking when she was still at school). Kate explained she had approached him as a family friend as well as parish Minister to discuss just what was going on in her head, as she had met and was attracted to an other woman and needed to find out what was happening to her. She wasnt even 16 then but her feelings were doing her nut in and scared her somewhat. She said that his advice was that thinking and wishing is no sin, the doing is what condemns us in the eyes of the Lord. My gob hit the table at that and I just coudnt believe anyone could say that, and yet I know that is the position of most churches in this country. I think it was actually hearing it articulated that startled me.

We chatted about it for a while and I dragged out of her something that I hadnt expected... that her childhood religious upbringing, her early beliefs still confuse her a litle and affect how she sees herself and our relationship. She questions to herself often as a religious people do and yet she has lost her belief in God. She doesnt have my certainties about the non existence of God, and is stiil trying to fully come to terms with a life without him her or it...
Dont get me wrong, I knew much of this for we do talk, a lot about many things...and everything.. or so I thought...but I just hadnt realised how much confusion remained in her head and how much that childhood religion still affected her thinking.

It didnt ruin the evening, in fact in its way added to it because we talked in ways we have never really before... for the first time she articulated that she is sometimes intimidated by my certainties... and holds back because of it. (you wouldnt think so when the Naggy Knickers comes out in her) I found out a few things about my luffly Kate that I didnt know... and loved her the more for it. She is deep down more vulnerable than me I have always known it, just as I am not the hard nosed bitch I make myself out to be, at least not entirely, and yet she does have a strength she doesnt know she has...

Ive not begun this thread for advice or for any other reason that when it comes to relationships..talkin, relating our uncertainties, telling all and responding is the only way that in matters love we have any hope of muddling through... the "Lord" works in myserious ways indeed...:)

[Bethyboop]

Amazing how one little sentence or tiny little occurrence can change how you look at someone, nothing huge or earth shattering, but you can never go back to the previous outlook, for better or for worse, again.

[darkeyes]

Bethyboop!!! Brill babes..me likes it!!!! Now least we don get confused wen the purrin Fran orgasmic maker aint on line!!!:tong:

Anyas dead rite... littlest things change so much... in this instance aint gonna change wot we r 2 each otha but dus make us look at each otha wiv a new found deepa undastanding wich don think we eva wer near 2...:)

[Sarasvati]

That was very interesting...

Thank you very much for that Miss darkeyes.

I don't really know what to say.

Has anyone brought some homemade jam along?

Aah Mavis. How are you?

[darkeyes]

Then why say anything... since it obviously is of no interest to you at all. Occasionally, some people need their bits removed, shoved up their arse and pulled out of their throat with very nasty white hot tongs...

[gb11vt18]

Wow darkeyes that is very interesting I mean I still grow up under a stong religious presence over me but I found that religion was not for me. It is great that you had a deep chat. That is the most important part in creating a lasting relationship. I don't think the minister will do much just a reaction from seeing him brought out these feelings that were deep inside and had been hidden, we all have these and when you are able to access them and understand them, that is when you can connect with the other person. Good luck darkeyes.

[Sarasvati]

Oh it's nice to see we can have fun together hard-to-see one. Such sport you have with me. I must avoid you when you are wrestling to open an umbrella in front of me.

Mavis, this jam of yours - I thinks it's a bit off - bit like my own bits - bit off that is - almost.

[Bluebiyou]

Ah, the preacher was just trying to do his job in the nicest way he can. There's hope for Christian religion; come a long way since the inquisition...

[Germanicus]

Oh it's nice to see we can have fun together hard-to-see one. Such sport you have with me. I must avoid you when you are wrestling to open an umbrella in front of me.

Mavis, this jam of yours - I thinks it's a bit off - bit like my own bits - bit off that is - almost.

Nurse! He's out of his bed again

[darkeyes]

Nurse! He's out of his bed again

Don u worry germanicus, sweets.. wiv is bits havin been ripped off, pushed up is rump an hauled outa is throat wiv white hot tongs e aint gonna botha 2 many peeps!!

[Germanicus]

Don u worry germanicus, sweets.. wiv is bits havin been ripped off, pushed up is rump an hauled outa is throat wiv white hot tongs e aint gonna botha 2 many peeps!!

Nurse! The screens!

Nah, I'm not worried about someone who thinks he's a reptile. Since they're all cold blooded I'd just shove him in the freezer.

[darkeyes]

Nurse! The screens!

Nah, I'm not worried about someone who thinks he's a reptile. Since they're all cold blooded I'd just shove him in the freezer.

Wotya mean thinks he is....??? Gonna b winter soon.. won need im in the freezer for long....:tong:

[GreenEyedLady(GEL)]

" She said that his advice was that thinking and wishing is no sin, the doing is what condemns us in the eyes of the Lord. My gob hit the table at that and I just coudnt believe anyone could say that, and yet I know that is the position of most churches in this country. I think it was actually hearing it articulated that startled me.

We chatted about it for a while and I dragged out of her something that I hadnt expected... that her childhood religious upbringing, her early beliefs still confuse her a litle and affect how she sees herself and our relationship. She questions to herself often as a religious people do and yet she has lost her belief in God. She doesnt have my certainties about the non existence of God, and is stiil trying to fully come to terms with a life without him her or it...
Dont get me wrong, I knew much of this for we do talk, a lot about many things...and everything.. or so I thought...but I just hadnt realised how much confusion remained in her head and how much that childhood religion still affected her thinking. "

First, I find it hard that she has lost her belief in God Fran. I'm not not saying she hasn't, because how could I really know for certain, but It doesn't sound like she has to me. ( Going to bombard her with questions next time I see her too :) ) Many many times I've actually heard myself thinking, what if the bible really is just only a great novel , and that I can live my life without fear of being cast into a lake of fire for living a sinful life. I know many of you think it's a crock and its your right to believe so ( like Fran I am not offering this up for debate ) Point is, many people struggle as I do about God. For 2000 years people have a been struggling about God, and there isn't a single person here that can prove , without a doubt, that God does not exist. Just as I cannot prove he does. Those of us that have faith in the bible believe he does. We were given some instructions many many many moons ago, some live by it , some don't. Myself I play with fire everyday of my life, eventually either I'm going to get burned, or I going to disappear from here, not to be heard from because I've changed my ways. I understand why Kate is unsure, I understand perfectly. :2cents:

[darkeyes]

Maybe deep down she hasnt Gel... we have talked this last night and today, really for the first time in such depth. She is though pretty adamant that her logic precludes the existence of a God, which is what she has always said. That superstitious belief is no substitute for the common sense approach that we are but accidents of nature... However, where we do differ is that where I am certain of it within my own mind and heart.. she retains the question in hers.. "surely not, but what if....??"

I was never raised religious.... never had that baggage put round my neck. My upbringing was one of logic over superstition, and I have never had any reason to alter my belief one iota. Everything I believe in is in front of my eyes.. birth, life and living, then sure as day becomes night, death and oblivion. Kate is different, and that which is believed as a child is often truly difficult to remove completely throughout an entire lifetime... she does not believe in the God of her childhood, of that I am pretty sure, yet questions whether He (yea.. He.. jeez!!!) may in fact just surprise her after she is gone. So where I am the true athiest, she is the true agnostic...

I know when and why she stopped believing, and have since the earliest days of our relationship. Its not for me to relate that, suffice to say it was enough to make anyone stop believing in the God she had been brought up with. She had a choice in her mind. Believe in a vengeful shitty God or not believe in one at all. The God of good had been completely eliminated from her thoughts. In fact initially the former was where she went, but as time progressed, she simply lost faith in any kind of God, good, bad or indifferent. She saw much goodness in her life as well as a lot of bad. Around her she began to accept that this was her one stab at life and that she was going to make the best of it. And that is what she has done, with a few blips along the way.

I am not interested in whether she believes in a God or not. She is her own person, and its not for me to tell her that any such belief system is bollox (though I have done and do... hmmmm...what does that say about me??). But seriously she is who she is, and as she struggles through her life questioning everything she does and believes in, just like the rest of us (though not in my case when it comes to a God), its my place to listen, try and understand and help her through as best I can, just as I know she will, and does when it comes to me.... I am interested in Kate as the person I have fallen in love with, am in love with, and will always be in love with.

No two people believe in the same things in their entirety. Kate and I do not when it comes to religion as it is, though neither believes in a God, and I actually do not think she does, she is much less certain of it than me.. but if she ever does regain that belief, or belief in any God or Gods, then who am I to criticise and decry her for it?? Sure it will make for fun arguments, but in the end, she is my partner in life, and have to respect whatever she believes whether or not I agree with it. Thats what partners do.

So I can actually accept and agree with much of what you say hun, certainly the general premise, stopping short of her actually believing. It may be that she does subconciously, but I dont think so. Its of no consequence to me. I love her and will accept her as she is, whatever she truly believes, conciously or otherwise.

[GreenEyedLady(GEL)]

(((((((((((fran))))))))))))))
So well written my friend. I do addore you so much.

[AdamKadmon43]

...... While there an old guy tootled over and it turned out he was her old parish minister. I didnt know him from Adam ( not you Adam.. gerroff!).

I do not know exactly how to tell you this, but I have been often known to travel to foreign lands and toodle about disguised as someone's old parish minister, and pretend to be a nice old coot, and then .......... never mind.

But on a more serious note, even thought we disagree on just about nearly everything, I sometimes think that I know why I love you so much. You are thoughtful and sensitive and (sort of) understanding (sometimes), and I think that your are (more or less) a good person.

Please do not interpret that to mean that we shall not continue to rattle our sabers at each other from time to time...... And stay the hell away from me with them white hot tongs.

:)

Adam

[HighEnergy]

There are other ways to believe. Try "If Grace is True" and "If God is Love." Both are books written by a couple of ministers saying that God accepts us as we are, and extends His grace to us and heaven without concern for sin. Not everything has to be hellfire and damnation.

[AdamKadmon43]

There are other ways to believe. Try "If Grace is True" and "If God is Love." Both are books written by a couple of ministers saying that God accepts us as we are, and extends His grace to us and heaven without concern for sin. Not everything has to be hellfire and damnation.

I have not yet read those books, but I have reason to believe That is simply not true !!!

I had a nice long conversation with god last night and he informed me in no uncertain terms that he thoroughly intends to fry my fuckin' ass and has no intentions of extending any "grace" to me. I tried to be reasonable and explain to him that I was simply being what he created me to be, but he would have no part of it..... Things went from bad to worse and eventually, he said "You just wait, you miserable little son of a bitch, I am going to fix you"... and then he hung up on me. I took that to mean that I am about to get more than my fair share of hellfire and damnation.

I sometimes think that god can get quite unreasonable. But I suppose that, when you are the boss, you can do what ever the hell you want to do.

[CuddlyKate]

There are other ways to believe. Try "If Grace is True" and "If God is Love." Both are books written by a couple of ministers saying that God accepts us as we are, and extends His grace to us and heaven without concern for sin. Not everything has to be hellfire and damnation.

I know of this High Energy and if He existed then it is how I would wish Him to be.

Why I lost my faith I do not intend to go into. Its enough to say that it happened. I struggle everyday with that loss, for when young it was so much a part of my life and its loss was deeply felt and created problems for me which last to this day. Frances has outlined much of it, though I wish she hadnt. Its all very personal and is a gaping hole in my life that apparently cant be filled. That it has consequences is certainly the case for even now there remains the guilt of feeling as I do and being in a relationship with one of my own sex, whatever the depth of my feelings for her.

I live in a society which has been shaped by Christian morality and attitudes and have never found it easy like Frances to be laissez fair quite as she has, and cock a snoot at that society. That she can and does is one of a million reasons I feel as I do and gives me the confidence to walk through my life with her.

The death of my mother, the realisation by my eldest child just who her sister is, and the way she lovingly accepted it, and the birth of a second perfect daughter havent made me regain my belief, but they have perhaps made me question my agnosticism. In the case of my mother at least a deep seated desire to somehow believe that we will be together again, and in the case of my children, that the miracle of them are not simply wonders of nature. Then I look to the wider world and see death destruction rape and the wreckage of lives and remember why my faith was lost.

I dont know any of the answers and question every day. I do not have certainties. All I do is try and get through my life in the best way I can by acting as my consciense tells me, and without giving pain to those around me. Whether God exists or not, surely that is a decent and honest way to live?

[kitten]

Yes, it is Kate.

We haven't met but I know that you are a strong person and up to the task of handling the challenges put before you just by what you have written.

It is within you to be strong and to continue as you are and to have a beautiful life full of love and care with your family and friends.

and hugs to fran, too, my luff.

[Michael623]

You might also read "Discover The Power Within" by Eric Butterworth. It's the teaching of Jesus but not based on sin or the belief you have to accept him as you savior to make it to heaven. No guilt attached to your divinity.

[onewhocares]

I guess I am going to take a different spin on things here. I think that in today's hectic world we never take the time to sit and really have meaningful conversations with our mates. Perhaps it is delving into the world around us, our pasts, our hopes and dreams for the future...no matter the topic, you just take precious time to talk and spend time with each other. I know that for hubby and I, that time for us is few and far in between. But when we do find the time, we come out stronger and more inlightend with each other. Wish others would place such importance on sharing ones viewpoints with their mates.

Belle

[HighEnergy]

I understand the struggle of faith. I'm on the verge of losing mine at times, but somehow I keep holding on. It is a shame what the Christian Right has done to this world, causing hurt and shame in so many folks. As I am looking around the world for a potential mate, even I am scared to date them!

Michael, thank you for the suggestion of another book. I shall look it up.

And Kate, enjoy your time with your beautiful child and lovely partner, and know that you were created just as you were supposed to be and live without guilt. That would be the perfect gift back to God.

[darkeyes]

I guess I am going to take a different spin on things here. I think that in today's hectic world we never take the time to sit and really have meaningful conversations with our mates. Perhaps it is delving into the world around us, our pasts, our hopes and dreams for the future...no matter the topic, you just take precious time to talk and spend time with each other. I know that for hubby and I, that time for us is few and far in between. But when we do find the time, we come out stronger and more inlightend with each other. Wish others would place such importance on sharing ones viewpoints with their mates.

Belle

The 1 thing we do and do well is talk... about anything and everything.. hopes dreams..who we r wot we r.. me even lissens... she much betta at that than me but we r 2 diff peeps so yad expect it... ona the reasons we hardly eva hav telly on is 2 make time for talkin ..an otha stuff (an me not jus referrin 2 sex).. this site an chattin on messenger r a bitta a bug bear at times... me much more inta it than Kate, an it has been known 2 cause the odd lil tiff... Am tryin 2 cut down for various reasons... Uni, Lou, Shiv wen she's ere, an cos Kate needs me attentions sumtimes..... we do havta make time for each otha... forget the religie/non religie thingie.. its jus 1 thing in our lives... ther so much more... they r me family an wile me luffs the arse off u lot an yas given me so much in last few years..thats wer me priority lies....

[izzfan]

Darkeyes, I really feel sorry for your partner. Religious upbringings have casued so much self-hatred and sorrow amongst anyone who is even vaguely 'different' for as long as anyone can remember. Personally, I think there should be an age limit on religion but that's just my opinion.

As for the whole homosexuality/bisexuality and religion question I have to say that most of the biblical references about this are either ambiguous, mistranslated, taken out of context or merely the opinions of St.Paul (by all accounts a very boring and puritanical person - if you read any of his letters he's always forbidding and condemning stuff). As for the whole concept of 'sin', I personally find it hard to believe that anything that causes no harm to anyone (eg: a loving homosexual/bisexual relationship) is considered wrong on the arbitrary say-so of a book written millenia ago [the words 'cultural context' spring hastily to mind].

I'm not saying that religious belief is a bad thing, it provides hope and meaning to many people's lives but organised religion often has a political agenda to it and this often causes great suffering.

Sorry if this post is too political.

Izzfan :flag3:

[darkeyes]

Don feel soz for Kate Izzie... last thing she needs.. she is a big girl now... an sure she dus hav issues but she happy..she nice.. an she has me.... we all hav things wich bug us, sum pretty deep rooted an fundamental... she don need feelin sorry for.. hell me don feel sorry for er... me ere 2 help er through ne shit in er life..an she ere 2 get me through likewise... she a grown mature woman not an invalid...

[MarieDelta]

they r me family an wile me luffs the arse off u lot an yas given me so much in last few years..thats wer me priority lies....

As it should be. We are just here for but a little while , let us love each other.

Not going to go into a debate on religion here, but I have often struggled with religion and beliefs and my mind often returns to this quote I found recently:


wanting to be a girl
never came up in CCD or sunday mass
and it’s not covered in the ten commandments
but from everything the nuns and priests taught me about you
i know that you do not approve
and when i turn to your holy words
to look for anything that might shed some light
onto whatever this is that i’m going through
i keep returning to the same story
the one about abraham
and how you commanded him to sacrifice his son to you
stopping the blade only seconds before
he actually went through with it
and forgive me father
for i can’t help but think
that that was a fucked up thing to do

and maybe i'm like abraham
and this is just another one of your tests
maybe you put girl thoughts
into the heads of twelve year old boys
just to see how they'll react
maybe i'm an experiment
and you're up in heaven looking down on me
taking notes as i tear myself apart in self-hatred
tossing and turning in bed
as if acting out my inevitable burning in hell


That's from "Sleeping Sickness" (http://www.juliaserano.com/drawblood.html#sleeping)


It's hard sometimes to reconcile what we've been taught is the truth with the truth we have to live.

I have prayed many times that this either be taken away or I be changed, neither has happened. Yet, in my darkest hours, I still turn to that creative force (I never believed that God had a gender despite what I was taught in sunday school.)

Am I sure that God exists? No. But, if he does, then he created me this way, and who am I to deny his creation? I also can't think that a loving God that I would want to serve would torment people with desires and loves that they weren't allowed to express. That would be a bit like worshiping a sadistic child, and I don't believe God is like that. Any God that I would want to worship would be above and beyond such things.

I know this is rambling, but these are my scattered thoughts.

I am glad that you and Kate were able to have such a discussion, because that is what relationships are founded on. Understanding and desire to understand.

[hillwalker54]

Thank you for sharing DE :-)

Yes, Belief's be they Religous or other when instilled in us at a young age can really cause a lot of conflict as we grow up. My W's upbringing certainly did. And as is so often the case we find out later than before. Good communication Like DE and K bonds them stronger and makes for a loving relationship :-)

[darkeyes]

Thank you for sharing DE :-)

Yes, Belief's be they Religous or other when instilled in us at a young age can really cause a lot of conflict as we grow up. My W's upbringing certainly did. And as is so often the case we find out later than before. Good communication Like DE and K bonds them stronger and makes for a loving relationship :-)

Wivout it jeez...we wud b in a rite ole mess!!!

[bi-robin-wash]

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have neighbors who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16). Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

(Lest anyone take offense, let me state for the record that I do believe in God...along with the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, elves, UFOs, leprechauns, honest politicians, and hundreds of othes things for which there is not one shred of evidence for either their existence or their non-existence.)

[darkeyes]

tee hee robin...u stuck this in sumwer before didntcha??? gives me a gud ole giggle... dunno wya ya stuk it in ere tho... not as if ya gonna get a bollokin outa me cos of it... luffya!!:bigrin:

[coyotedude]

Some pretty deep thoughts here.... Don't really have much to contribute, but I do want to make one small point.

You don't have to reject spirituality to be bi or gay or lesbian; you don't have to reject spirituality if you are trans.

If you choose a life without spirituality, of course, that is entirely your choice, and who am I to judge you? (Although I will be annoyed if you don't extend the same courtesy to me, of course.) We all have our reasons for making our own life choices.

It hurts deeply when we are rejected by those whom we once trusted, simply for being who we are. It's confusing as hell to realize that our deepest assumptions about ourselves and the world around us -- fed to us over the years by those we love and respect -- aren't quite true.

But that doesn't mean we have to go without spirituality if we don't want to. It doesn't mean we can't have a relationship with God or the gods or spirit or whatever you want to call it if we don't want to.

It simply means we have to search a little harder for the truth.

Just my :2cents:

Peace

[Bethyboop]

Maybe deep down she hasnt Gel... we have talked this last night and today, really for the first time in such depth. She is though pretty adamant that her logic precludes the existence of a God, which is what she has always said. That superstitious belief is no substitute for the common sense approach that we are but accidents of nature... However, where we do differ is that where I am certain of it within my own mind and heart.. she retains the question in hers.. "surely not, but what if....??"

I was never raised religious.... never had that baggage put round my neck. My upbringing was one of logic over superstition, and I have never had any reason to alter my belief one iota. Everything I believe in is in front of my eyes.. birth, life and living, then sure as day becomes night, death and oblivion. Kate is different, and that which is believed as a child is often truly difficult to remove completely throughout an entire lifetime... she does not believe in the God of her childhood, of that I am pretty sure, yet questions whether He (yea.. He.. jeez!!!) may in fact just surprise her after she is gone. So where I am the true athiest, she is the true agnostic...

I know when and why she stopped believing, and have since the earliest days of our relationship. Its not for me to relate that, suffice to say it was enough to make anyone stop believing in the God she had been brought up with. She had a choice in her mind. Believe in a vengeful shitty God or not believe in one at all. The God of good had been completely eliminated from her thoughts. In fact initially the former was where she went, but as time progressed, she simply lost faith in any kind of God, good, bad or indifferent. She saw much goodness in her life as well as a lot of bad. Around her she began to accept that this was her one stab at life and that she was going to make the best of it. And that is what she has done, with a few blips along the way.

I am not interested in whether she believes in a God or not. She is her own person, and its not for me to tell her that any such belief system is bollox (though I have done and do... hmmmm...what does that say about me??). But seriously she is who she is, and as she struggles through her life questioning everything she does and believes in, just like the rest of us (though not in my case when it comes to a God), its my place to listen, try and understand and help her through as best I can, just as I know she will, and does when it comes to me.... I am interested in Kate as the person I have fallen in love with, am in love with, and will always be in love with.

No two people believe in the same things in their entirety. Kate and I do not when it comes to religion as it is, though neither believes in a God, and I actually do not think she does, she is much less certain of it than me.. but if she ever does regain that belief, or belief in any God or Gods, then who am I to criticise and decry her for it?? Sure it will make for fun arguments, but in the end, she is my partner in life, and have to respect whatever she believes whether or not I agree with it. Thats what partners do.

So I can actually accept and agree with much of what you say hun, certainly the general premise, stopping short of her actually believing. It may be that she does subconciously, but I dont think so. Its of no consequence to me. I love her and will accept her as she is, whatever she truly believes, conciously or otherwise.

wow she does Scottie AND Spock!

[Bethyboop]

Dear Dr. Laura:


(Lest anyone take offense, let me state for the record that I do believe in God...along with the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, elves, UFOs, leprechauns, honest politicians, and hundreds of othes things for which there is not one shred of evidence for either their existence or their non-existence.)

and I believed you till the one little thing in bold above came up

[darkeyes]

wow she does Scottie AND Spock!

Now thats a gud sunday giggle Bethy..tee hee.. bloody scrummie lil smart arse!!! Ally..snog er gob shut!!!:bigrin::tong:

[biwords]

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have neighbors who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16). Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

(Lest anyone take offense, let me state for the record that I do believe in God...along with the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, elves, UFOs, leprechauns, honest politicians, and hundreds of othes things for which there is not one shred of evidence for either their existence or their non-existence.)

Funny! but it misses the target, since:

1. For Christians, the Old Law was suspended by the Resurrection (I'm sure there are other members here who can put this more precisely, but that's the gist).

2. For Jews, too, many of the laws were suspended when the Temple was destroyed by the Romans, and won't come back into effect until the Messiah rebuilds it. (Neat 'out', eh?)

So Dr. Laura can't actually be charged with hypocrisy for not stoning her in-laws or whatever.

[darkeyes]

Funny! but it misses the target, since:

1. For Christians, the Old Law was suspended by the Resurrection (I'm sure there are other members here who can put this more precisely, but that's the gist).

2. For Jews, too, many of the laws were suspended when the Temple was destroyed by the Romans, and won't come back into effect until the Messiah rebuilds it. (Neat 'out', eh?)

So Dr. Laura can't actually be charged with hypocrisy for not stoning her in-laws or whatever.

O Wordsie..don b so bloody picky an pedantic! Its a giggle... an from wot me membas don stop halfa the religie arsholes from throwin that sorta stuff at us ne way! Chill .. giggle..hav sex... get sozzed :tong:an enjoy!

[biwords]

I DID say it was funny, Fran. However, I'll be happy to take your suggestions :)

[MarieDelta]

Chill .. giggle..hav sex... get sozzed :tong:an enjoy!

Rinse and repeat :)

[someotherguy]

Religion is sometimes used for mind control. The idea is your own thoughts punish you for doing certain things. They get you to believe something is bad, and that you are bad for doing it. If you believe in that, then you suffer guilt as the result. You might just as well pick up a rock and bash yourself in the head with it, in the name of God. It is lunacy but hey, whatever floats your boat.