And if you thought 'Jap' was bad.......!

[biwords]

So yesterday I paid my third visit to SpaExcess, reputedly Toronto’s best bathhouse (haven’t been to any of the others yet). And as before, playing VERY safe, to the point where one potential partner walked away, shaking his head in amusement. Anyway, during a lull in the music that otherwise filters through the place 24/7, I could hear what was evidently a post-coital conversation going on in the next room. The primary speaker was an older guy who sounded uncannily like John Wayne, and what he was saying can be summed up as follows (I should mention that a lot of Asian men frequent the bathhouse and that the number seemed particularly high that day…):

“Ahhh, everywhere you go, it’s ch-nks and n-ggers and [unintelligible]. We fuckin’ bring ‘em over here so they can take jobs away from Canadian boys. Fuck that. Any fuckin’ ch—k looks at me the wrong way, I’ll smash ‘im. I used to fuckin’ shoot ‘em in Korea for seventy-five cents a day. Fuck, I don’t care – I’ll do it again. Stand the ch-nks and n-ggers right up against the wall, fuck ‘em. Just look at ‘em all, y’know? Well, fuck that!....”

And so on and so forth. And I thought, first, how funny it is that I still meet people who think that victims of discrimination will be careful to avoid discriminating against others. I’ve never found this to be the case. And secondly, that if this guy was, say, 18 in 1953, he’s 72 now; and still getting some in bathhouses; have to admire that sort of vitality, anyway! And finally, that it would have been interesting to speak with him about what it was like to be gay in the 1950’s – on that topic, at least, he might have had something worthwhile to say. A few more years and his generation will be gone, and a lot of information with them – someone should be doing an oral history (no puns, please)…

[Skater Boy]

Paul, people with attitudes like this generally do not deserve the space on the internet that they are given when threads like this are created.

However, I can appreciate the issues involved... namely that just because one experiences prejudice first-hand, does not mean that one will learn from the experience and avoid falling into the same trap.

It would seem that hate breeds hate.

Thank you for reminding me once again to ensure that I govern my emotions appropriately.

[biwords]

Maybe he was one of the Shadow People? :)

[pogostiks]

One other example to show how people who are discriminated against are quite likely to be just as intolerant of others:

This last summer in Toronto at Spadina and Bloor there were two or three Native Americans (Indians) standing in front of a bunch of newspaper boxes, including one for NOW, an alternative newspaper. To be blunt, they looked like rummies, and they were more or less there to see if they could convince people to give them some change. Anyway, I sort of had to reach behind one of them in order to get the paper, and I said "Excuse me, please". He replied: "That newspaper's for faggots!" I was so astonished that I said "What?" and he repeated it. As I started to walk away with my paper, another came up and said "That's a faggot newspaper!"... I turned and yelled back "So what!" and I was really furious. In the first place, it is NOT a gay paper particularly, even if it includes Dan Savage's column. . Second of all, who are THEY to be putting anyone down - unemployed rummies that they are.

Which all goes to show that the more you are treated badly by society, the more likely you are to go and find someone else to put down as a way for you to feel superior to SOMEONE.

It's all very sad... but there it is.

[TaylorMade]

I'm just gonna snerk at the ironies presented before me...

<snerk>


*Taylor*

[bigirl_inwv]

I think that people...in general...are self centered. Someone says something that offends them...OH THE SHOCK!! But when they say something that offends other people...that's a different story.

I haven't been online much lately, not that many people knew who I was to start with. But its for this exact reason that I stopped coming here. I came for a safe haven of sorts...and what I got was something totally different.

As soon as I said that my husband and I were swingers...He hated bi men...I wasn't really bi...I just wanted to fulfill my husbands threesome fantasies. (We've never had a threesome, BTW.)

So...the people here have all experienced discrimination in one way or another...but many people didn't think twice about putting me down for swinging.

If only people could focus on the things that bring us together...instead of tearing us apart.

[darkeyes]

I'm just gonna snerk at the ironies presented before me...

<snerk>


*Taylor*

Yas not..Taylor..me ashamed of ya.. tee hee:tong:

[Skater Boy]

I dunno... I've never expressed hateful or murderous views about ANYONE, that I can remember. Straight, Gay, Religious, "Swinger", or otherwise...

[Doggie_Wood]

I think that people...in general...are self centered..........
I haven't been online much lately, not that many people knew who I was to start with..........

As to the first statement; That's the big I little U syndrome ..... I see it all the time.

As to the second; Been wondring where ya been hun ...... missed ya!


As soon as I said that my husband and I were swingers...He hated bi men...I wasn't really bi...I just wanted to fulfill my husbands threesome fantasies.
(We've never had a threesome, BTW.)

If only people could focus on the things that bring us together...instead of tearing us apart.

I would be glad to assist in fullfilling any of those fantsies .... while at the same time fullfilling a first time threesome for you both hon :bigrin:


Glad yer back sweetie
:doggie:

[the mage]

Stupid people are unable to live outside their own little sad reality and there for resent and dislike anyone not like them.

Sadly they are still allowed to breed.

[transcendMental]

Stupid people are unable to live outside their own little sad reality and there for resent and dislike anyone not like them.


Which all goes to show that the more you are treated badly by society, the more likely you are to go and find someone else to put down as a way for you to feel superior to SOMEONE.

These two quotes really sum it up for me. Each person I've dealt with who has voiced a problem with my particular brand of diversity or method for dealing with my issues has evidenced a very narrow worldview (little sad reality), and a need to feel superior (it gives them a reason to crap on my particular successes that they may feel jealous of). And this goes on in every spectrum: race, gender, nationality, religion, sexuality, age, political views, etc.

As a species, we seem unable to accept that all ways of being and all opinions have both strengths and weaknesses, and that even someone incredibly different from you (including the most bigoted person) has reasons for being that way that you could learn something from, even if you NEVER agree with their opinions.

[Azrael]

Stupid people are unable to live outside their own little sad reality and there for resent and dislike anyone not like them.

Sadly they are still allowed to breed.

Who's to decide who gets to? You? :cutelaugh

[darkeyes]

Stupid people are unable to live outside their own little sad reality and there for resent and dislike anyone not like them.

Sadly they are still allowed to breed.Aaaah the wise mage puts is foot in it gain... jus cos peeps think diff don make em necessarily stupid...

[Skater Boy]

Aaaah the wise mage puts is foot in it gain... jus cos peeps think diff don make em necessarily stupid...

"ignorant", "inconsiderate", possibly even... "bitter"... those might be better words, imho.

[darkeyes]

Now that me can agree wiv skater... an worse...

[DiamondDog]

Who's to decide who gets to? You? :cutelaugh

Eugenics at its finest! ;)

[coyotedude]

With all due respect, I don't buy the argument that racism occurs in minority communities because the downtrodden need to feel superior to someone else. Perhaps the need to feel higher in the pecking order plays a role, but not necessarily a primary one.

We humans may have an innate need to differentiate our group from other groups. But individual and communal biases against a particular community are learned behavior.

White babies don't instinctively hate African American babies. Arab Muslim and Jewish babies don't instinctively hate each other. Straight babies don't instinctively hate gay babies. They learn to prejudge each other - from their parents, their grandparents, their friends, their culture.

And racist or homophobic or other biases aren't necessarily about hate. Rather, these biases are based on false assumptions and ignorance that may or may not lead to fear and hatred.

People assume they are not racist because they don't hate African Americans, for example. They may even have African Americans as friends. Yet of course blacks aren't smart enough to be quarterbacks in the NFL, right? And this black guy at work must have gotten his job only because of affirmative action - he could never be as good as the white guy who also applied, right? And why can't we use the word "nigger"? After all, all black gangsta rappers use the "n-word" in every other sentence and black kids (all of whom listen to gangsta rap) are okay with it, right?

(Of course, we're too polite to make any of these comments to our African American friends.)

You don't have to hate Native Americans to believe them to be all dirty drunks. You don't have to hate Arabs to believe them all to be mindless fanatics bent on sacrificing their own children as suicide bombers. You don't have to hate gay men to believe them all to be pedophiles.

Yet ironically, one actual drunk Indian or one actual mindless Arab fanatic or one actual gay pedophile must prove the stereotype, right? 3 dead Maori children in New Zealand must prove that all Maori are child abusers. One racist white American man must prove that all white American men are racists.

Members of minority communities can and do learn prejudices from the majority culture. My grandfather, who was Native American, was a perfect example of this. I remember seeing him catch shit from good outstanding white folks for being Indian. Yet he didn't like African Americans; he hated the "japs" after fighting the Japanese in Burma in WWII (where do you think I learned about the word?); and he blew a gasket when my mom dated a Mexican guy.

But he didn't have those biases because he himself had been discriminated against. He was racist because he'd learned those lessons, many of them from an early age. And he never questioned them.

Thankfully, lessons learned can be unlearned. Biases may be institutionalized within cultures, but each of us has the choice to educate ourselves and question what we've been spoon-fed over the years. But it takes courage, because it can be hard to question those core assumptions that shape our view of the world around us.

And I'm running out of steam - for which most of you reading this are likely thankful.

Peace

[Long Duck Dong]

We humans may have an innate need to differentiate our group from other groups. But individual and communal biases against a particular community are learned behavior.

White babies don't instinctively hate African American babies. Arab Muslim and Jewish babies don't instinctively hate each other. Straight babies don't instinctively hate gay babies. They learn to prejudge each other - from their parents, their grandparents, their friends, their culture.

And racist or homophobic or other biases aren't necessarily about hate. Rather, these biases are based on false assumptions and ignorance that may or may not lead to fear and hatred.


Peace

I love those statements..... so much they are so true......

[coyotedude]

Thanks, LDD, that's reassuring. I felt like I was rambling so bad..... at least something I said maybe made sense somewhere! (Maybe....)