The Scarlet T

[transcendMental]

Did people read "The Scarlet Letter" (Nathaniel Hawthorne) in school? I read it ages ago, and the gist as I recall is that the letter was a Scarlet A that had to be worn publicly as a punishment by a woman who was found to have committed adultery -- the novel was set somewhere in Colonial times, I believe.

Times have changed, but the ritual of branding ourselves with a letter as a punishment seems alive and well.

I hate being a transsexual, and feel no pride about being one. I do not particularly even identify as a transsexual, except by definition. I have identified as a woman for many years, and I do feel proud of that identity. But if I enter the chat room calling myself female, I am considered a liar by many. So I punish myself (or let others punish me) for having a penis by wearing the Scarlet T (yes, I know on this site that the T marking my gender is more pink than scarlet, but the thought is the same).

When I enter the room bearing my letter, I am not viewed as female -- I am viewed (and treated) as trans. I can divide people's reactions into four categories: creeps, the curious, other trans persons, and the rest. Creeps make assumptions about me, figuring I'm a she-male, and generally ask for pictures. The curious group are full of questions, some insightful and interesting, others less so. I love and appreciate curiosity, and I want to raise people's awareness of this issue, so these are some of my favorite people. Similarly, it is always interesting to talk with other trans people, and ask some of my own questions, to compare and contrast experiences, outlooks, etc. The rest generally ignore me, some in a friendly way, and others in a more pointed way (ever been pointedly ignored?).

I have, by contrast, chatted in rooms while presenting as female. The difference is amazing. My lifelong shyness disappears, people respond to me, and for the only time in my life I feel genuinely like a real person, like the woman I am and the woman I was meant to be. I come alive, and for a short time, my gender dysphoria is gone. But this, apparently, is deceitful and disrespectful to those I chat with. I have as much of a hard time understanding this as non-trans people seem to have understanding transsexualism. I feel as if I am being completely genuine with people when I present as female, and I feel like a miserable shy gender dysphoric freak when I present as trans.

To me, it seems to boil down to the same question that arose in one of Marie's recent threads: if I am viewed as a body, then I am trans; but if I am viewed as a person, then I am a woman.

It is interesting that it seems to work the other way around, too: if I am viewed as trans, then I am treated as a body (arousing to some, a curiosity to others, and provoking discomfort in most); if I am viewed as a woman, then I am treated as a person.

I just get so depressed sometimes chatting while bearing the Scarlet T. I would love to be able to share and interact comfortably with the great people here, but I feel trapped between acknowledging my physical reality and acknowledging my identity. If I am going to continue to wear this letter, I need to understand better why it is necessary, and how people respond when they see it.

Your thoughts please, please, please!

[Skater Boy]

Is this the one that features the quote:

"No man, for any considerable period, can wear one face to himself, and another to the multitude, without finally getting bewildered as to which may be true."

If it is, I haven't read it, but I'm familiar with the quote, and it made me think about the "self" that I present to the outside world. In connection with my sexuality, that is.

[Skater Boy]

I just get so depressed sometimes chatting while bearing the Scarlet T. I would love to be able to share and interact comfortably with the great people here, but I feel trapped between acknowledging my physical reality and acknowledging my identity. If I am going to continue to wear this letter, I need to understand better why it is necessary, and how people respond when they see it.

Your thoughts please, please, please!

If its any consolation, I think we're ALL wearing some sort of letter. For most of us here its a scarlet "B" (for Bisexual). A reality that we probably cannot escape, no matter how hard we try.

BUT, try not to think of it like that. Your way of thinking reminds me of how the Nazis used to put triangles of various colors on their prisoners to denote the reason for captivation.

The truth is, that there ARE people out there who can see us for the person we are inside, even if we ourselves are struggling against the physical realities that seem to imprison us.

:2cents:

[MarieDelta]

Just to stick my two cents in here...

We've talked before about how women and men are different (or not) and the difference in the sexes.

My question is how is the T designation different from designating someone for being handicapped or different in another way?

How is that different from say designating someone who is say paraplegic or colorblind or for having blue eyes?

I suppose it matters most if you are planning to meet with and / or date someone from this site.

How does it matter though in say chat? Or in the forum when we are posting?

I can't see that it does. Anyone else?

[Skater Boy]

Just to stick my two cents in here...

We've talked before about how women and men are different (or not) and the difference in the sexes.

My question is how is the T designation different from designating someone for being handicapped or different in another way?

How is that different from say designating someone who is say paraplegic or colorblind or for having blue eyes?

I suppose it matters most if you are planning to meet with and / or date someone from this site.

How does it matter though in say chat? Or in the forum when we are posting?

I can't see that it does. Anyone else?

These issues are partly "in the mind" Marie. thats not to say that society doesn't hold any stigma against particular groups. But half of the battle is within yourself. I think there are probably many people who have a complex of some sort about one or more of their personal characteristics- myself included. But the more at ease you are with yourself, the more others will be likewise. I'm not belittling TG issues though... speaking as a bisexual I know that its not always easy being part of ANY minority group.

:2cents:

[MarieDelta]

Not saying they aren't but, you haven't answered my question either.

this isn't about 'society at large' it is about this place.

And I know that there are (and have been people here) who have lied and told people they were natal women when in fact they were nothing of the kind.

I know people who were hurt by this and I feel sorry that they were. to be hurt by anothers lies is very painful.

I guess I have all kinds of questions.

It isn't about "transpeople" we didn't design the system.
(btw notice how there is only one variety of trans person no seperate designations for FTMs and MTFs?).

I want to know why you think this is about how we feel about ourselves?

I know that some women (and men) prefer to have nothing todo with trans people for whatever reason. Others are so focussed on us that they seem almost obsessive.

It seems like it really put us out there to have to identify ourselves.

You don't see seperate icons for people who like spanking or bondage or??

anyway, Cheers!

Marie

[Skater Boy]

I want to know why you think this is about how we feel about ourselves?

I know that some women (and men) prefer to have nothing todo with trans people for whatever reason. Others are so focussed on us that they seem almost obsessive.



You don't see seperate icons for people who like spanking or bondage or??

anyway, Cheers!

Marie

Well, IMHO its only HALF about how we view ourselves. The other half is obviously external.

As for the passionate appreciation or disapproval of Transpeople (in a romantic context), well... thats just life... for example, some men/women find partners of a particular race or body type attractive or unattractive. "Why" is something thats hard to answer.

I agree that you don't see seperate icons for spanking or bondage, but perhaps we should? the more detail we give, the closer we come to identifying the person as an INDIVIDUAL rather than relying on the broader catagories. I guess the aim is to communicate (to potentially interested parties) what type of catagory a person falls into. The most obvious division in society is that of physiological sex, and gender, so needless to say, its the first thing that many of us state. That doesn't mean that we will necessarily JUDGE the person (consciously or otherwise) by their catagory, but its often useful to some people to know certain basics before proceeding into any form of relationship. Perhaps Trans-issues are different to spanking or bondage because Trans-issues are gender related, and do not necessarily imply any form of sexual preference. For example, one can be a Trans-woman and like men, or a Trans-woman and like women, or even a Trans-woman and like spanking and bondage.

I guess the division comes between issues of sexuality and issues of physiological sex/gender. Whether it is justified is another matter.


IMHO you would be well within your rights to have chosen just to use the "female" icon when you signed up to this site. If that is the gender you identify with, then who am I (or anyone else, for that matter) to say otherwise. But to some people, the physiological facts are very important.

Just my :2cents: Marie. I think we both know that you know a lot more about these issues than I do!

[MarieDelta]

I know it's your two cents Skater Boy, and I respect and appreciate it, I really do.

I really enjoy reading your posts, but I think you know that.

I'm just stiring things up as per usual, trying to see where folks stand on things and kinda playing a different type of "get to know you" game. I hope that makes sense.

Seems to me that the more we talk about these issues the more i get to know people here and I like that.

Marie

[transcendMental]

Skater and Marie, thanks so much for your thoughts here. Skater, you are a master of diplomacy and careful and balanced thought, and I truly hope that I have the opportunity to meet you in chat at some point! I know well that this is a difficult topic for people to think and express themselves about, and I welcome everybody's thoughts here.

Marie, I understand why you raised it, but I think it clouds the picture to raise adding more standard info to your profile (bdsm, etc.). People DO care about gender, especially on a site where sexuality is necessarily such a central issue. And I actually do appreciate that T is included as an option here. But this still not make my choice of letter (F or T) more clear. My problem is that I cannot tell which is actually more accurate, and as I said in the original post, the accuracy of either letter seems to hinge on whether you view me as a body or as a person.

Skater, I am not sure which issues you are suggesting are "in the mind" at least in part. I know that the medical trend these days is toward accepting that the problem itself is medical in nature rather than psychological: my brain is structured as a woman's brain. No strategy based on "it's in your mind, so just get over it" (including hypnosis, aversion therapy, enforced masculinity, etc.) has ever been found effective in treating transsexuals. That being said, of course, as Marie suggests in her signature, confidence can make all the difference. But for many transsexuals, the medical issue (the physical disconnect between brain and body and the self-image problems this creates) is exactly what undermines confidence.

[In real life, I am quite high-functioning, and have faked the confidence for years. It has only been recently that this has worn so thin and left me feeling so weary that I have felt the need for therapy and medical help.]

If I have completely missed your point about "in the mind" Skater, please let me know what you meant.

But now, everyone else: Skater and Marie have each suggested that they see no reason why I should not present here as female if that is what I feel inside. (And naturally, I would never agree to meet anyone in real life, unless they knew my sex well ahead of time!)

Are there other or dissenting views on this question? If everyone agrees with Marie and Skater, then I am needlessly vexing myself with this T business. Can this be true?

[dafydd]

I'm not sure if spanking or bondage is on the same level as gender, therefore wouldn't advocate using symbols in the same vein. Surely these first two are kinks and fetishes, whereas gender is something innate.
I would just use the female sign in chat, why not? if you're going to meet anyone you could always PM then, but for the purposes of chat if it makes you uncomfortable using T then just use the female sign. For some people gay and straight, people who are Trans upset their very rigid notions of gender, which have been programmed into us for so long. Hope you come to some resolution on this issue.

d

[transcendMental]

David, thanks for your support as well.

This makes 3 who have no problem with a T person presenting as F, and no dissenting opinions.

I would love to think this means there are no dissenting opinions. But I find it interesting that so many thoughtful (and opinionated) people have not weighed in with an opinion.

I urge people to ask themselves if they are not contributing to this thread because (a) they agree with everyone who has spoken so far; (b) they don't want to disagree publicly; (c) they see this topic as irrelevant to their lives (it is NOT); or (d) they are uncomfortable with the whole topic and wish it would go away (it won't).

Naturally, there are other reasons, I'm sure, but many are just (b), (c), or (d) in costume.

[Skater Boy]

Transcend... I was VERY careful and thought for quite a while before I made my posts, simply because I didn't want to put my foot in it. The truth is, that Trans issues are something that I, and many other Bisexuals are quite ignorant about. And as the old adage goes: "Silence is the safest policy when you are unsure of yourself". I'm sure our fellow Transpeople have the support of the vast majority of the members on this site. But this is a very complex issue... perhaps beyond some people's comprehension, if not technically, then because of the feelings and experiences that may be involved. If you don't get the response you were hoping for, please bear this in mind. that said, I do hope that more opinions will be forthcoming, and that you won't be disappointed by our collective level of commitment to your concerns.

SB

[MarieDelta]

I want to try something if I may...

A Story

I was on Second Life (a month or so ago)(its another chat engine) and chatting away to this young lesbian from brazil. Her language was a bit strange , but I put it down to distance and different cultures. I am a fan of many different cultures so.. that was all cool.

We were intimate, and I thought it was great. So we set a second date to meet.

It wasn't untill the second date that I found out she wasn't female or even trans. He was just some kid from Brazil that wanted to be a woman in secondlife, because none of the hot chicks would go for him when he was a boy.

I am still sorting my feelings from that. But be assured that I felt lied to.
I was open about who and what I was and felt that this person abused my trust.


I suppose what bothers me most is that he was just doing it to get some action. If he had said that he was trans or something I suppose I could have accepted that.

I guess what I am saying is be careful about your motives for doing something.

[Skater Boy]

I guess what I am saying is be careful about your motives for doing something.

You're right... deception can be unpleasant sometimes. And one should examine one's motives carefully before doing it to someone.

I guess whether we like it or not, there are some "realities" that we just cannot deny successfully. At least not in the long term.

But as long as we all maintain some degree of integrity, hopefully no-one will get hurt.

[transcendMental]

I suppose what bothers me most is that he was just doing it to get some action. If he had said that he was trans or something I suppose I could have accepted that.

I guess what I am saying is be careful about your motives for doing something.

I really appreciate this discussion, and yes Skater Boy, I am well aware that this is extremely difficult material. I did not mean to try to rush people in forming their opinions; but I did want to encourage them to continue to examine and formulate their opinions. But I would also like to help them feel comfortable expressing them here, especiall dissenting opinions. :)

Marie, I am so sorry you had that experience, and I couldn't agree more. If a person does not truly identify as a woman, then their motives for presenting that way are clearly suspect.

Clearly, each of us must keep a close watch on our own motives in any aspect of chat (whether we're L, G, B, T, I, Q, or S(traight)).

I believe that as Skater Boy points out, it is all about integrity and treating others with respect. It seems that there is some division of opinion about the meaning of this, however?

There can also be a division of opinion on the meaning of deception. If I identify as female, but not as trans (and certainly not as male), then am I being more deceptive (a) presenting as female; (b) presenting as trans; or (c) when I present as male in real life?

It seems to me that part of being trans is that there is no way to be completely truthful with anybody (online or in real life) about who you are. When people perceive me as male or trans, they miss out on a huge part of who I am, because of how I have presented myself. That feels deceptive to me, and has led me to pursue transition. But post-transition, I will face the same dilemma. I will look, sound, and act as a female, but will have male chromosomes, and some miscellaneous male bits (I believe they leave the prostate alone, for instance). Does my presentation in real life then constitute deception? Am I obligated at that point to wear the T on my blouse?

(I do not ask this confrontationally, btw, but seriously, and out of curiosity.)

tm