Racial Slur

[GreenEyedLady(GEL)]

For anyone that was in the room tonight and saw me say the word "jap" I wanted to apologize, I thought I had by saying I didnt realize i was saying something nasty. I only shortened the word, because my spelling sucks. Unfortunately I ended up sparking an argument. If this had ALL happened in person there wouldn't have been an aruement in the first place. Michael - we were miscommunicating in the worse way. Your just going to have to take my word for it. You and I have never had any problems and for this to be an issue between us isn't right. I used the word jap when referring to when of my best childhood friends who I love. I am sorry it got out of hand. I really am. I love you guys , you know that.
LynnAnne

[Long Duck Dong]

I was not in the chat tonight, so I don't know what unfolded... but a few times in the forum, I have ended up being hammered over words that others felt that I was not allowed to use, cos it offended them... however the terms I used were not expressed or meant is any way, to be offensive

I don't find the word, jap offensive.....it all depends on how the word is used....
and often the words are expressed in a manner that is totally different to the way that people choose to percieve them

its a bit like the term * nigger *, to many people its a offensive and derogatory term....if I said it in bisexual.com, I would be called racist, if I used it on the street, I would be asking for a beating... and if I used it on stage or in a recording studio.... people would still buy my cd.......

as I have often said.... offense is often not expressed by people that are talking... its perceived by the people that are listening

[darkeyes]

We all, all of us sometimes let slip words which may sound offensive and yes even racist. I loathe racists and racism an the language of racism, yet I too am occasionally guilty of usuing words which can be construed as a racist term. When young, the accepted terminology among most working class brits for going 2 a chinese restaurant was "fancy a chinky". Now I dont excuse myself but sometimes I let that phrase slip even now. I have quite a few chinese and half chinese m8s, and jeez I have even let it slip when in their company and believe me have felt both foolish and extremely guilty. Another is "lets go for an eytie" when deciding on eating Italian. Jeez I have never used that one, though I have friends who have and do, yet I know for a fact that they dont have a racist bone in their body.

Many who are not racist sometimes use a racist term because not so long ago it wasnt considered such and was just part of the language. Of course it isnt any more. It wasnt then either but we didnt think of that. Now we have to be more circumspect in our use of words and quite rightly so.

I have no doubt Lynne didnt mean the term in a racist way and accept her explanation, but it shows how even among the closest of friends without thinking we can create problems for ourselves by unthinkingly using words which we really ought not to.

I do understand especially Ran's sensitivity to the use of the word "Jap", cringe when I hear it used here and hope that somehow the two of you can kissie and make up. My old man gets really sensitive when he is called a "Jock", and mum when she is called one of the many names some Scots people call the English, few of which are complimentary.. Life is 2 short, 2 full of joy 2 allow a word 2 come between us. Sort it my darlings. Please. Love you both too much to have you at each others throat.(except in the nicest possible way:bigrin:):female:

Finally.... 2 (TWO) days 2 go!!!!!!:bigrin:

[dafydd]

its a bit like the term * nigger *, to many people its a offensive and derogatory term....if I said it in bisexual.com, I would be called racist, if I used it on the street, I would be asking for a beating... and if I used it on stage or in a recording studio.... people would still buy my cd.......

as I have often said.... offense is often not expressed by people that are talking... its perceived by the people that are listening


not if you are white they wouldn't.
d

[Sapphrodite]

I dont think there is any reason for someone to use slurs or racist remarks, in any fashion, including media and artistic expression such as music, as in my opinion it only further perpetuates the words we are trying to banish from our social conscience. This does not include historical references in media/entertainment and documentaries that are portraying this as they were in times when this language was used - this serves the purpose of showing our generation and those to come the follies of segregation, discrimination and racism.

However I was in chat at the time, and GEL made a single reference to a friend's ethnicity as "half Jap half Hawaiian". I doubt that there was any intention to make racially disparaging remarks agains someone she considers a "friend", far less others in chat, as the comment was not made in reference to anyone in the room. It was obvious (to me anyway) that it was a shortened word vs spelling it out in full during chat, possibly due to spelling or whatever. Although this could have been initially perceived as 'racist', anyone who read the comment in context and knows GEL (even a little bit) would know that she would not intentionally use language or slang that could be viewed as racist or offensive.

Along the same train of thought, no one gets offended at the barrage of other remarks that could be viewed as offensive in chat, like referring to people as rednecks, sluts, or making dumb blonde references. No one leaves chat when others use sexual slang such as calling someone a pussy or cocksucker, etc. I have even been in chat when people have referred to other nationalities as limeys, sheep-fuckers, and other slang terms which could be offensive as well, but no one gets upset - in fact, it's usually part of a friendly ribbing and everyone's laughing about it. But we all get angry if some idiot comes in calling us all homos and dykes, not being being gay is negative, but because of the context it's being used in: if it is intended to be a negative remark, then more often than not, it is.

Considering how many other things we make into short-forms in the chatroom, here's hoping we dont all get our backs up over a misunderstanding that seems to be a geniune error and not intended to be offensive. It's all about context, and I'm sure it's a lesson well-learned on GEL's part. :flag3:

[biwords]

I agree with Sapphy that context is everything, and in fact I'd go further and say that one is to consider not only the context of the particular remark, but also the context provided by the speaker's history of behaviours and attitudes concerning race. In other words, racism is so serious a charge that I reserve it for the plainest cases. I admit I'm also suspicious of people (and this is not aimed at Michael, since I wasn't in the chatroom at the time and don't know what was said) who work themselves up into storms of indignation over the use of a word like 'Jap', which, if it is a slur at all, is only barely so.

[Michael623]

I agree with Sapphy that context is everything, and in fact I'd go further and say that one is to consider not only the context of the particular remark, but also the context provided by the speaker's history of behaviours and attitudes concerning race. In other words, racism is so serious a charge that I reserve it for the plainest cases. I admit I'm also suspicious of people (and this is not aimed at Michael, since I wasn't in the chatroom at the time and don't know what was said) who work themselves up into storms of indignation over the use of a word like 'Jap', which, if it is a slur at all, is only barely so.

Maybe you guys should ask someone who is a "Jap" if it's barely a slur. Who are you to decide what is offensive to a person and what isn't? And don't worry biwords I don't give a crap if you are suspicious of me, I am far more than that of you.

[biwords]

Michael, Michael, Michael......I thought I'd made it entirely clear that I was NOT speaking of you but of people I've seen.

Also, I believe there's a rule here about flaming the idea but not the person. Here you've said you're 'far more than suspicious' about me, and not so long ago you said as much in the chat room. If you have a beef, I suggest you raise it with me in correspondence so that we can resolve it. Or raise it publicly if you'd rather; but dark, unsubstantiated hints aren't fair and don't do you credit.

[Michael623]

Michael, Michael, Michael......I thought I'd made it entirely clear that I was NOT speaking of you but of people I've seen.

Also, I believe there's a rule here about flaming the idea but not the person. Here you've said you're 'far more than suspicious' about me, and not so long ago you said as much in the chat room. If you have a beef, I suggest you raise it with me in correspondence so that we can resolve it. Or raise it publicly if you'd rather; but dark, unsubstantiated hints aren't fair and don't do you credit.

I have raised it directly with you and in the forum in which you started it. I doubt anyone that goes to chat often doesn't know my "beef" with you. Don't scold me biwords.

[biwords]

Who are you to decide what is offensive to a person and what isn't?

The short answer is: if you can have an opinion on whether a term is offensive, so can I. But your comment raises an interesting point. Is the test 'what someone finds offensive' or 'what is objectively offensive'? There are problems with both approaches. With the first we have the problem that there is almost nothing that SOMEONE won't find offensive. With the second, we're begging the question, because who decides what's 'objective'? As a Jew (albeit a completely nonreligious one), I can tell you that I'll laugh at some plainly anti-Semitic jokes and not at others...I go by my gut, as I expect most people do.

[biwords]

I have raised it directly with you and in the forum in which you started it. I doubt anyone that goes to chat often doesn't know my "beef" with you. Don't scold me biwords.

I stand by 'hints' -- I've had no clear, substantiated statement from you. You seemed to have some (to my mind, lunatic) notion that I was trying to drive a wedge between yourself and Arana.

In any case, if everyone else in chat knows, and Michael won't say, would someone else please enlighten me in a PM or otherwise? I can't fix something I don't understand.

[pogostiks]

"JAP"
Did they mean as in "Jewish American Princess"???
(Just trying to lighten things up a bit)

The whole problem here is defining "racist".
Some things are understood by everyone to be racist....others less so.

Context obviously has a lot to do with how the word was MEANT to be taken... as does intonation if the conversation is oral.

Recently I was talking to a cousin about someone and described him as being "nut brown". My cousin went bonkers, telling me that this was totally racist and that I shouldn't use such terminology. I told her that it was just a descriptive term... I could also have said "black as coal" or "peaches and cream"..., but my cousin insisted that I change my vocabulary.

I refuse. Those who know me know very well that I am not racist, that I have been on the streets protesting against racism at various times, that I have friends of every colour...WHO I AM is also part of CONTEXT. If the context doesn't seem racist, the suspect comment or phrase or word probably wasn't meant to be so. From what I gather about the origins of this thread, there was no hidden meaning in the usage of the word Jap and so I personally think that anyone taking umbrage is exaggerating a bit. I'll ask a Japanese friend of mine and see what she says.... I suspect that in the context of saying "Half Jap and half Hawaiian" she will probably just shrug and say it is not a problem for her.

[Michael623]

Wow, that's it. Let's vote on it. Maybe we can have Drew use it as a survey. Then all you Japanese who might be offended by it can just get over it and let people use that word. Geeez, what other choice do they have?

[pogostiks]

"Voting on it"..ha ha ... your sarcasm is duly noted.

To change the angle... Many people "get upset'" when people say "girl" instead of "woman". The speech police go ape screaming "She's not a "girl", she's a 48 year old WOMAN!!!!!!!!!" This, despite the fact tha 80% of the female population use the term "girl" all the time (and even worse, say "Hi guys" when talking to a group of girls...
Language quickly loses its precision as things get more and more muddled.

Sigh... pretty soon it will be impossible to say ANYTHING without SOMEONE taking "offense".

Political correctness has its limits, and to be blunt, it is way too limiting.

A short person I know once said he was "horizontally challenged"...

I shot back that I am "vertically challenged"...I can't seem to get laid!

I have been waiting for years to meet someone with a retarded child who tells me her son is "differently-abled" so that I can reply "Oh, you mean he's a genius?" and watch her struggle to explain that no...

Being SO CAREFUL not to offend anyone eventually becomes a drain on conversation and clarity. That's why I said earlier that CONTEXT and INTENTION are far more important than the word or phrase itself.

Time to lighten up, people. Actions speak a whole lot louder than words.

[Skater Boy]

Its often not the word itself that is offensive, but rather the intent behind it. However, I think it is generally up to the addressee (and the general social climate) to determine whether it is derogatory.

[biwords]

Its often not the word itself that is offensive, but rather the intent behind it. However, I think it is generally up to the addressee (and the general social climate) to determine whether it is derogatory.

The problem is that the 'general social climate' is difficult to measure nowadays, since few people will say what they really think without casting a fearful backwards glance. The problem with letting the addressee decide the question is twofold; first, some addressees are unreasonable, and second, some have an agenda in appearing as offended as possible.

[darkeyes]

Often we may not mean a word to be offensive. And yes occasionally we are too sensitive. But if a person percieves a word to be offensive it is offensive to them. Hence we should if we can tread gently and carefully in our choice of words especially when describing people. I for one dont mind being called a tart or a slut by my friends, because its what we all call each other. In the old fashioned sense, some of us are and some arent. But I hate the double standard of men calling me such and looking down their noses at me as being a piece of dirt especially when half the time they are trying to get into my knickers. They of course are sowing wild oats and are Jack the lads and so since its what men do its accepted and they are just that little bit better than me. Women do not have this luxury and are judged much more harshly.The perpetuation of this by many prudish and quite a number of hypocritically secretive women doesnt help.

Words can be hurtful. No matter how much we put on a brave face and we should choose them with care. Whether its racial sexual or anything else words may not break bones, but they can make us feel less than we are. I have fought this all my life and shall continue to do so. I dont think Pogosticks post helps matters for it seems to me he excuses himself from this responsibility.

We all say hurtful things. After all we are human and have all the failings and emotions of our kind. However we have to try and understand that the world is not as it was not so long back when people could say what they like without considering the feelings of people who were different. The world has moved on and in our multicultural world we have to take care in our choice of language.

[darkeyes]

The problem is that the 'general social climate' is difficult to measure nowadays, since few people will say what they really think without casting a fearful backwards glance. The problem with letting the addressee decide the question is twofold; first, some addressees are unreasonable, and second, some have an agenda in appearing as offended as possible.

And many are genuinely hurt.

[Skater Boy]

The problem is that the 'general social climate' is difficult to measure nowadays, since few people will say what they really think without casting a fearful backwards glance. The problem with letting the addressee decide the question is twofold; first, some addressees are unreasonable, and second, some have an agenda in appearing as offended as possible.


Hmm, I guess maybe all this was part of the reason why "politically correct" terminology was invented. It seems a shame to be forced to use nothing but politically correct terms. but if they avoid causing offense, and avoid one falling into the traps you mentioned, then I guess it serves its purpose. At least within some conversations.

[deletetacount123]

Words do hurt.

A lot of people seem to think deaf people are stupid and are ALL mute.

Ive had a few at work who glance at my sign and go "You're not deaf... deaf people DON'T talk". There are several people who would think Im just being stupid and rude cause Im "ignoring them" so they would say something like "EXCUSE ME!! are you (bad word here) deaf or something?"
Ugh :( I did say "Yes I am... read the sign" (point at the clearly visible sign)

Oh well.... as a deaf person I face hurt comments every day... especially in town where deaf people are unheard of. blah.

I believe Lynne didn't mean to do that.. I know I tend to shorten words if Im nto sure of the spelling. Shes the nicest girl I know :)

Plus wasn't "Jap" a sudden change?? I seem to remember people using it then all of a sudden it was considered bad and we couldn't spell it that way anymore.

Tasha

[Skater Boy]

Plus wasn't "Jap" a sudden change?? I seem to remember people using it then all of a sudden it was considered bad and we couldn't spell it that way anymore.


Mmm, I think its because it was used by some in a negative context concerning the War with Japan. Admittedly, it doesn't seem very offensive to me, but then I'm not Japanese. And even abbreviations of a person's true nationality can sometimes seem offensive, regardless of intent.

[biwords]

Darkeyes and Skater Boy: I agree, some people are genuinely hurt. And there's nothing wrong in avoiding language that may hurt, as a point of good manners, provided one doesn't go to extremes. (I'm 5'6" and am happier being called 'short' than patronized by 'vertically challenged':)). What I have a problem with is the increasing habit of assuming that a person who uses such language is racist or sexist or whatever. In fact words like 'racist' and 'sexist' are now thrown about so casually and vaguely that I generally avoid using them.

[MarieDelta]

FWIW:

Words do have the ability to hurt and heal.

LynnAnne, as can be seen from her post wasn't intending to hurt anyone. It may have appeared otherwise at the time, I don't know I wasn't there.

If people don't know /understand that the particular word that they are using is the wrong term ("She-male" anyone?) then I generally give them a second chance. Because we are all humans, and if I made that mistake I certainly would hope that someone would tell me that the language I'm using was hurtful and or offensive.

If they do know but make a mistake , then it generally depends on the person involved. Because intent does matter. If one of you calls me "queer" it is a whole different deal than if a homophobe does it.

I don't know, probably shouldn't stick my nose into this, but I don't like to see people get hurt. And in this age of electronic comunication the potential for damage is so increased, sometimes we misunderstand the other's intention (as I believe was the case here.)


Marie

[dafydd]

If someone was offended, the comment was offensive.
If someone felt offended because they thought it was a racist comment, it was a racist comment.
Everybody gets so terrified of accusing someone of being racist. People are racist all the time, they might not mean to be, but by some small insensitivity they can be. Doesn't make you an axe murderer or a serial killer, just means you need to be pulled up on it every now and again.
If someone found the word "jap" racially offensive, it was racially offensive.
End of.

I have sat in a room with my boss where she categorically denied that repeatedly calling me Gay Dave was offensive.
The conversation went something like this.
D: "Don't call me that. That's offensive."
My boss: "No it isn't"
D: "Yes I find that offensive"
My boss: "No you don't."
D: "Yes I do."
My boss: "Well you can't because it's not offensive."
I swear.
You get the idea.

Why are people trying to writhe out of taking responsibility for their words? OP excepted.

d

[dafydd]

Mmm, I think its because it was used by some in a negative context concerning the War with Japan. Admittedly, it doesn't seem very offensive to me, but then I'm not Japanese. And even abbreviations of a person's true nationality can sometimes seem offensive, regardless of intent.

SB,

I know loads of straight guys who aren't homophobic but don't find the word "faggot" offensive.
Doesn't mean it's not offensive.
Conversely, you don't have to be Japanese to find the word "Jap" offensive. What was the context in which it was used?
You've always got to er on the side of caution. It takes a second to hold back a word, but longer to deal with the consequences of offense, as we are seeing.
:tong:

D

[GreenEyedLady(GEL)]

If someone was offended, the comment was offensive.
If someone felt offended because they thought it was a racist comment, it was a racist comment.
Everybody gets so terrified of accusing someone of being racist. People are racist all the time, they might not mean to be, but by some small insensitivity they can be. Doesn't make you an axe murderer or a serial killer, just means you need to be pulled up on it every now and again.
If someone found the word "jap" racially offensive, it was racially offensive.
End of.

I have sat in a room with my boss where she categorically denied that repeatedly calling me Gay Dave was offensive.
The conversation went something like this.
D: "Don't call me that. That's offensive."
My boss: "No it isn't"
D: "Yes I find that offensive"
My boss: "No you don't."
D: "Yes I do."
My boss: "Well you can't because it's not offensive."
I swear.
You get the idea.

Why are people trying to writhe out of taking responsibility for their words? OP excepted.

d

First off , you weren't there. You dont even know what your talking about. Don't add in if you havnt a clue what your saying.

[Skater Boy]

D, I undertsand what you're saying, but where do you draw the line? Some people are just naturally more over-sensitive about certain issues than others. And can perhaps see hostility (or malicious intent) where there simply is none. I agree that one should try and be sensitive to ther people's feelings. And any blatantly derogatory terms should obviously never be used. But if a person is offended by something which most would consider innocent and possibly just plain truth, do you then condemn the person who made the statement?

I sympathize with your work scenario. calling someone "Gay Dave" could definitely be considered offensive, discriminatory, and potentially homophobic. I might've been tempted to make an official complaint, if I were you.

But some cases aren't as clear cut as that, and the truth is that as much responsibility lies with the adressee not to be over-sensitive, as does with the addresser to be sensitive.

:2cents:

[biwords]

If someone was offended, the comment was offensive.


Hmmn. So if this comment of yours offends me, it's an offensive comment?
What if I fancy myself a good singer (in fact, I can't carry a tune in a bucket) and someone hearing me sing tells me 'keep your day job' or even 'Paul, I don't think that your gifts include singing'. If I'm offended by such a comment, is it an offensive comment?

You might say that those comments aren't about race, but the same principle holds. If you give the addressee the pirvilege of determining what is 'offensive', sooner or later all kinds of things will be deemed offensive which no reasonable person could regard as such.

Much better, IMHO, to say 'it's offensive if it was intended to offend OR if people acting reasonably would see it as likely to offend'. Of course, this requires some sort of general social consensus about what's reasonable. Unfortunately, as this thread shows, such a consensus no longer exists. (My personal recommendation: "reasonable" describes what most North Americans would have regarded as reasonable in 1965" -- i.e., before all the present craziness).

And I can just imagine what some will say to that! :)

[biwords]

D, I undertsand what you're saying, but where do you draw the line? Some people are just naturally more over-sensitive about certain issues than others...the truth is that as much responsibility lies with the adressee not to be over-sensitive, as does with the addresser to be sensitive.

That's another problem with the approach suggested by dafydd -- taken literally, it effectively abolishes even the possibility of 'oversensitivity': 'if I'm offended, the comment is offensive', and who are you to tell me I'm OVERsensitive?

[biwords]

It also has to be acknowledged that, as many people have discovered, raising allegations of racism, sexism and so on can pay off big. A policy of "if the hearer is offended the comment is offensive" can only serve to encourage this kind of racket.

[dafydd]

Hmmn. So if this comment of yours offends me, it's an offensive comment?
What if I fancy myself a good singer (in fact, I can't carry a tune in a bucket) and someone hearing me sing tells me 'keep your day job' or even 'Paul, I don't think that your gifts include singing'. If I'm offended by such a comment, is it an offensive comment?

You might say that those comments aren't about race, but the same principle holds. If you give the addressee the pirvilege of determining what is 'offensive', sooner or later all kinds of things will be deemed offensive which no reasonable person could regard as such.

Much better, IMHO, to say 'it's offensive if it was intended to offend OR if people acting reasonably would see it as likely to offend'. Of course, this requires some sort of general social consensus about what's reasonable. Unfortunately, as this thread shows, such a consensus no longer exists. (My personal recommendation: "reasonable" describes what most North Americans would have regarded as reasonable in 1965" -- i.e., before all the present craziness).

And I can just imagine what some will say to that! :)

Yes in the context of racism, sexism or homophobia, if the comment was deemed to be offensive than absolutely yes. And UK law would agree, at least that's what the police would say in the UK in dealing with any hate crime. If the *victim* perceived the incident was homophobic/racist etc. then it was.
No in the context of your singing. That's just an opinion.
What I object to is people saying "oh no...that's not racist.. no no that's not offensive to you...no it isn't".
Who are you to say?

1965 was a long time ago. And many things have changed since.
And of course I can contribute to this discussion. It was posted on the main forum. What nonsense to suggest I can't.

D

[darkeyes]

Darkeyes and Skater Boy: I agree, some people are genuinely hurt. And there's nothing wrong in avoiding language that may hurt, as a point of good manners, provided one doesn't go to extremes. (I'm 5'6" and am happier being called 'short' than patronized by 'vertically challenged':)). What I have a problem with is the increasing habit of assuming that a person who uses such language is racist or sexist or whatever. In fact words like 'racist' and 'sexist' are now thrown about so casually and vaguely that I generally avoid using them.

Wordsie.. it is a fact that not all those who use sexist or racist terms are in fact racist or sexist. I thought I had said as much but maybe not sufficiently clearly. Many people use them because of historical practice and out of a certain niaivity. Times have changed and what was once acceptable is no longer. Terms such as "wog" and "nig nog" once commonly used here to describe people from the old colonies or "wop" to describe Italians and "deigo" and "frogs" though still in use to some extent are frowned upon and so they should be. They are demeaning and insulting and we should make the concious effort of never using them. Similarly "whore" "tart" slut" and other words are demeaning to women, no matter whether they are in the Oxford english dictionary or not. "Poofter" "Top of the roof" "nancy boy" to gays. there are instances where use of some of these words are acceptable, within the community it is aimed at itself for instance, although it can be argued that such practice does that community no favours, and encourages those from outside to continue to use such epithets.

Unlike you, I do not avoid using the words racist or sexist, for I know when something is meant in such a manner. If it is said with sexist or racist intent, then the speaker is sexist or racist. And believe me, it often happens, and I react accordingly. It is usually an easy thing to recognise. I am not wishy washy about such things because I recognise the sensitivities not just of minorities but of people in general, and know how a cutting and insulting remark can hurt. Its not a matter of political correctness, but as you yourself have indicated, a matter of manners, It is also a demonstration of how much we care about other people.

[Skater Boy]

Yes in the context of racism, sexism or homophobia, if the comment was deemed to be offensive than absolutely yes. And UK law would agree, at least that's what the police would say in the UK in dealing with any hate crime. If the *victim* perceived the incident was homophobic/racist etc. then it was.

No in the context of your singing. That's just an opinion.
What I object to is people saying "oh no...that's not racist.. no no that's not offensive to you...no it isn't".
Who are you to say?

1965 was a long time ago. And many things have changed since.
And of course I can contribute to this discussion. It was posted on the main forum. What nonsense to suggest I can't.

D

D, is that really where UK law stands? Then if I "claim" to be racially or sexually offended by some seemingly random comment that someone has made, then I can take it to the courts, and they will rule in my favour just out of principle? It doesn't seem wise.

As for the singing part... why is it limited ONLY to race, gender and sexuality? An honest question... I can't really see why these three things deserve a difference in the law than do any others. Apart, perhaps, from their minority status and controversiality.

[EDIT: perhaps the above is related to the "physiological realities" that often cause divisions?]

Agreed that 1965 was a long time ago... I don't even think the concepts of homosexuality or bisexuality were considered "acceptable" or even legal in those days.

Interesting topic.

[darkeyes]

That is not how English or Scots law acts at all Skater. There still remains the onus of proof that an act or speech was intended as racist, homophobic or sexist. The laws of the UK arent that free and easy and quite rightly so. Dafydd has it wrong. It may be that the onus of proof should be less than it is or made even more difficult. That is a matter of debate. But certainly perception means a great deal and so it should. But for the law simply to take the word of a claimant is just plain silly and a recipe for legal chaos. I dont say this as a conservative adherant of the judicial process quite the opposite. For if it was as Daffyd clamed, then it would be those least able to defend themselves who would be at the wrong end of the legal boot.

[Ally Kat]

I was there when this "incident" happened. I've known GEL here for a very long time, and I am 110% sure that she meant no offense at all in what she said, I believe the explanation that she gave at the beginning of this thread completely , no reservations at all...granted she was probably not right to shorten the word in question, people make mistakes. Michael jumped all over her, never let her try to make amends, explain. Even arana was trying to get him to drop it.
Political correctness...what a load of hogwash.. we have become such a society of victims, no one can say anything about anyone with out considering all the ramifications of what they say and even then someone somewhere will nitpick out some thing that will be offensive to them...I take that back, you can;t say anything about anyone, but a southern white person...
Well I'm sure I pissed off my share of people for this week now.

[dafydd]

That is not how English or Scots law acts at all Skater. There still remains the onus of proof that an act or speech was intended as racist, homophobic or sexist. The laws of the UK arent that free and easy and quite rightly so. Dafydd has it wrong. It may be that the onus of proof should be less than it is or made even more difficult. That is a matter of debate. But certainly perception means a great deal and so it should. But for the law simply to take the word of a claimant is just plain silly and a recipe for legal chaos. I dont say this as a conservative adherant of the judicial process quite the opposite. For if it was as Daffyd clamed, then it would be those least able to defend themselves who would be at the wrong end of the legal boot.

I'm sorry but in the UK police will count an incident as a hate crime if the victim believes the attacker was motivated by race or homophobia. This is the law darkeyes.

http://www.crimeinfo.org.uk/servlet/factsheetservlet?command=viewfactsheet&factsheetid=60&category=factsheets

"Any incident in which it appears to the reporting or investigating officer that the complaint involves an element of racial motivation; OR any incident which includes an allegation of racial motivation made by any person."

[dafydd]

D, is that really where UK law stands? Then if I "claim" to be racially or sexually offended by some seemingly random comment that someone has made, then I can take it to the courts, and they will rule in my favour just out of principle? It doesn't seem wise.

As for the singing part... why is it limited ONLY to race, gender and sexuality? An honest question... I can't really see why these three things deserve a difference in the law than do any others. Apart, perhaps, from their minority status and controversiality.

[EDIT: perhaps the above is related to the "physiological realities" that often cause divisions?]

Agreed that 1965 was a long time ago... I don't even think the concepts of homosexuality or bisexuality were considered "acceptable" or even legal in those days.

Interesting topic.

In general hate crimes are generally confined to religious, 'racist' and homophobic crimes, although there are 6 strands to the Commission for Equality and Human Rights (CEHR) in the UK.
Race
Sexuality
Age
Gender
Disability
Religion
The CEHR is the independent advocate for equality and human rights in Britain. The CEHR aims to reduce inequality, eliminate discrimination, strengthen good relations between people, and promote and protect human rights.

http://www.cehr.org.uk/

d

[dafydd]

D, is that really where UK law stands? Then if I "claim" to be racially or sexually offended by some seemingly random comment that someone has made, then I can take it to the courts, and they will rule in my favour just out of principle? It doesn't seem wise.

You can take it to the courts, if you can find a lawyer to take your case on, if there is any substance to it.
A court will not nec. rule in your favour. They might disagree with you.

D

[darkeyes]

Traeting something as a race crime Dafydd isnt the same as prosecuting and sentencing someone based on claim. The onus of proof is still required to obtain a conviction. Anything other is a gross abuse of human rights.

[darkeyes]

Ally hun..may disagree wiv bout half of wotya sed, but that don piss me off..take more'n that to stop me blowin on ya fluffies:bigrin::female:

[Skater Boy]

Traeting something as a race crime Dafydd isnt the same as prosecuting and sentencing someone based on claim. The onus of proof is still required to obtain a conviction. Anything other is a gross abuse of human rights.

I think the term "motive" (as in "racially motivated") is key here. If an invidual feels that racism might be an issue, then the POLICE must take this concern seriously (according to Dafydd). However, the COURTS must proove, beyond all reasonable doubt, that the defendant's true motive was that of racism, if a conviction is to be made (according to Fran).

Btw, I think the vast majority of people who posted in this thread have little doubt that GEL had no racist intentions in mind when she typed this word. The whole things seems to be an unfortunate misunderstanding. However, it does serve as a reminder to be careful what we type, in future.

[biwords]

I think the vast majority of people who posted in this thread have little doubt that GEL had no racist intentions in mind when she typed this word. The whole things seems to be an unfortunate misunderstanding. However, it does serve as a reminder to be careful what we type, in future.

But not too careful, I hope.

Other problems with daffyd's approach:

A, who is white, calls B, who is Japanese, a 'Jap'.
C, who is white, calls D, who is Japanese, a 'Jap'.
B says he is offended. D says that he is not offended.
So A and C will be treated differently for the isame act. The result is, as darkeyes suggested, "legal chaos".

Another problem:

Some Jews equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, or at any rate maintain that many anti-Zionist statements are in fact motivated by anti-Semitism. Under daffyd's approach, then, an anti-Zionist remark should be treated as anti-Semitic remark if the hearer regards it as such. Most people would see this as odd, to say the least. Of course, the speaker would try to show how an anti-Zionist remark is not necessarily anti-Semitic, but that's irrelevant if you've already decided that it's the hearer's view, and the hearer's view only, that counts.

[Sarasvati]

Darkeyes

How long did it take you to realise terms such as "chinky" and "eyetie" were offensive? Your casual use of such terms suggests that you don't really care about racism, you just want to be liked by your friends.

I have to say this too but your hip hop patois could easily be seen as racist. It's clearly an act, lacking any authenticity, and as such, translates as mockery.

I'm sure you can find many criticisms of me but I'm pleased to think racism wouldn't be one of them.

[biwords]

Don't rise to the bait there, Fran. You don't have to prove to anyone that you're not indifferent to racism.

[darkeyes]

You cheeky sod. Its about time you read properly what I write. I do NOT do things to please my friends.. at least not in the manner you suggest. I have long known ever since I was little that "chinky" and "eytie" are less than desirable terms. In my teens I learned them to be racist. If you read anything properly you will see I have accepted I am not a perfect human being, but the number of times I have slipped and fell back into the language of my childhood has been rare. Wtf u think your are with your holier than thou attitude God only knows. I have a sense of humour and thats why I act and write as I do.

Whatever you think of my "patios" is of no consequence to me for you know nothing of why I do it or why it even exists. Maybe you believe it to be a mockery but that is your decision and I dont give a bugger. I am a relatively light hearted individual with a serious, some would say opinionated streak. But I am no racist and have fought it ever since I was old enough to know what it means. Even before subconciously I never treated any person other than as I found them as human beings.

How dare you attack me as insincere and populist when the reality is you know nothing of me. Im trying for the life of me to think why you have chosen to do so but really its doesnt matter. In the end it is how decently we act as human beings to each other which matters. Not with the patronising and pompous arrogance which you have displayed. I have never accused you of racism and I am glad that you are not.

I like to laugh at life as well as treat it with seriousness when its warranted and act accordingly. If thats being inauthentic then I am guilty as charged. If acting when I see an injustice or discrimination is inauthentic then I am guilty as charged. If being able to laugh at the world is inauthentic, I am certainly guilty as charged.

[biwords]

Good Lord, pogostix, I just realized who you are!!

[Sarasvati]

Based on your posts to this thread, darkeyes, I decided to challenge you.

Of course you are quite entitled to come back at me, as I expected you would. And I am quite sure many readers of this thread will see things your way - and be keen to stamp on me.

But I can see no way out with a choice of terms such as "Chinky" or "Eyetie". They are blatantly derogatory and above all, ignorant. What exactly is the funny side of such words? It does matter. It is right of me to challenge you.

I am far from "holier than thou", I revel in a certain amount of sinfulness, although I agree with another of your challenges to me, that I can be pompous and arrogant.

In fact I welcome challenges to myself. Often they can expose flaws that I was previously blind to.

Perhaps that is a difference between us.

[Michael623]

I was there when this "incident" happened. I've known GEL here for a very long time, and I am 110% sure that she meant no offense at all in what she said, I believe the explanation that she gave at the beginning of this thread completely , no reservations at all...granted she was probably not right to shorten the word in question, people make mistakes. Michael jumped all over her, never let her try to make amends, explain. Even arana was trying to get him to drop it.
Political correctness...what a load of hogwash.. we have become such a society of victims, no one can say anything about anyone with out considering all the ramifications of what they say and even then someone somewhere will nitpick out some thing that will be offensive to them...I take that back, you can;t say anything about anyone, but a southern white person...
Well I'm sure I pissed off my share of people for this week now.

I would like to say this in my defense, for whatever it's worth. GEL told me to fuck off and deal with it. Didn't want to tell that part, Ally. Now who is the victim, poor GEL?

[Ally Kat]

after you never gave her a chance to answer your accusation



and I've said all I'm gonna say on this subject...and ignoring this thread

[Michael623]

Twice i went "Jap?" Neither time did GEL offer any explanation other than to tell me to fuck off and deal with it. You need to tell the entire story Ally or stay out of it.

[arana]

after you never gave her a chance to answer your accusation
and I've said all I'm gonna say on this subject...and ignoring this thread

I told myself I wasn't going to get involved in this stupidity but....

When you're telling someone they are using a word that is considered rude and that persons next sentence is "Deal with it", it doesn't make them seem very sympathetic to the fact that they may have just insulted or hurt someone elses feelings. Granted the discussion was moving fast and I have talk to GEL since then and accept that she was talking about something different when she said that....your comment saying hers was ok, Ally, simply because she was being "jumped on" makes me wonder if maybe it actually was intended in the way it was taken. Maybe you know more about what GEL really meant then I. That "Deal with it" was far more insulting then then the word jap ever was during that conversation. Michael may get caught up in arguing for things he believes in but at least he does care.

[GreenEyedLady(GEL)]

I told myself I wasn't going to get involved in this stupidity but....

When you're telling someone they are using a word that is considered rude and that persons next sentence is "Deal with it", it doesn't make them seem very sympathetic to the fact that they may have just insulted or hurt someone elses feelings. Granted the discussion was moving fast and I have talk to GEL since then and accept that she was talking about something different when she said that....your comment saying hers was ok, Ally, simply because she was being "jumped on" makes me wonder if maybe it actually was intended in the way it was taken. Maybe you know more about what GEL really meant then I. That "Deal with it" was far more insulting then then the word jap ever was during that conversation. Michael may get caught up in arguing for things he believes in but at least he does care.

What part of " miscommunication " didnt you understand ???????
When I said deal with it is WASNT fucking saying deal with me using a horrible ethnic slur !!!!!! I said I was misunderstanding where michael was coming from !!!! Why in the fuck would I tell michael to deal with me saying such an awful word ????????????? Now you've done pissed me off !! Don't jump down my throat anymore , Ive had enough ! You two piss me off so fucking bad you know it ? Get a life. OK ?

[Skater Boy]

OK guys, I think this one is probably best ended here. its getting uncivilized. Lets not turn this into another flame thread.

[Dai1961]

WOW,,, words can cut, and hurt. Don't think they can't. Dave is right, its the old beauty is in the eye of the beholder,,, and well, so is ugliness. He did not have to be there to be able to read and understand that Michael was offended, therefore what was said was offensive. That said, was not an apology given? Words have power,,, but only if we give them power. I try not to be offended by people who throw ugly words around, due to ignorance (or an honest mistake). I am offended by those who know better, are being hateful, or have just been asked not to and continue to do so!!!


That would just be fucking rude!

Dai

[arana]

What part of " miscommunication " didnt you understand ???????
When I said deal with it is WASNT fucking saying deal with me using a horrible ethnic slur !!!!!! I said I was misunderstanding where michael was coming from !!!! Why in the fuck would I tell michael to deal with me saying such an awful word ????????????? Now you've done pissed me off !! Don't jump down my throat anymore , Ive had enough ! You two piss me off so fucking bad you know it ? Get a life. OK ?

and what part of I talked to GEL and accepted that it was a miscommincation did YOU NOT UNDERSTAND???? Maybe you should start paying closer attention instead of flying off the handle. Enough people have been doing that as it is. I told you last night in front of all of chat that michael was upset and trying to defend me and instead of seeing that Oceans had to explain that to you later on. But you are condenmning him for getting upset and not seeing everything you said.

I do not nor have I ever had any problems with you so I don't understand why you are taking something that was offensive to me and making this YOUR soap box for being so wronged. I told you last night you didn't need to make this thread and you said "Arana this is not about you, it's for anyone I may have offended in chat" .... well so far my name has come up more than once and this is not even close to being something apologetic, it's just continuous mudslinging and friends fighting over stupid crap and I've had enough of it.

[Skater Boy]

Is it just me, or is this stuff best kept within private messages? :eek:

[mistymockingbird]

OK guys, I think this one is probably best ended here. its getting uncivilized. Lets not turn this into another flame thread.


Agreed. Let us partake of some puppet wisdom and abandon the flaming.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3Jt3RSBABE

[AdamKadmon43]

........GEL

WOW...

I'll bet you had no idea that your perfectly innocent (but apparently politically incorrect) use of a three letter word could have wound up generating so much controversy.

But I am glad that it did.... It has gotten very interesting and it gives me a great deal of insight into various participants in this forum.

Adam

[dafydd]

Traeting something as a race crime Dafydd isnt the same as prosecuting and sentencing someone based on claim. The onus of proof is still required to obtain a conviction. Anything other is a gross abuse of human rights.

When a crime is treated as a hate crime there are certain procedures that have to be followed. I did not state that it had anything to do with obtaining a conviction.

D

[dafydd]

But not too careful, I hope.

Other problems with daffyd's approach:

A, who is white, calls B, who is Japanese, a 'Jap'.
C, who is white, calls D, who is Japanese, a 'Jap'.
B says he is offended. D says that he is not offended.
So A and C will be treated differently for the isame act. The result is, as darkeyes suggested, "legal chaos".


Please, this is not *my* approach. This is the way it is done in the UK when police are investigating hate crime incidents.
I cannot state that plainly enough.
D

[Long Duck Dong]

this is part of the damage of PC speech..... its not the risk of offending a person... its the fall out over what may be said by anybody

it is so easy to call any word offensive.... but the harder aspect is to prove that any word is spoken with the intent of offending a person

I remember getting into trouble for using the term coloured people, instead of people of colour.....one person tore into me for being offensive to them and not respecting them....but the trouble was, I was not referring to them, their race, or their culture.....in fact nothing I had written, had anything to do with any aspect of them at all

but the term was still offensive......

so the interesting aspect now, is that a term used in a public forum, is personally offensive, to people half way around the way, that open a thread, read the comments and then take the comment personally

that is the reason why i have pretty much stopped posting in the forum..... its not cos something I say, may be unintentionally offensive..... its that any I say, can be deemed as offensive

[darkeyes]

Based on your posts to this thread, darkeyes, I decided to challenge you.

Of course you are quite entitled to come back at me, as I expected you would. And I am quite sure many readers of this thread will see things your way - and be keen to stamp on me.

But I can see no way out with a choice of terms such as "Chinky" or "Eyetie". They are blatantly derogatory and above all, ignorant. What exactly is the funny side of such words? It does matter. It is right of me to challenge you.

I am far from "holier than thou", I revel in a certain amount of sinfulness, although I agree with another of your challenges to me, that I can be pompous and arrogant.

In fact I welcome challenges to myself. Often they can expose flaws that I was previously blind to.

Perhaps that is a difference between us.I expressed regret that I have ever used the term "chinky" as if you read my post thoruoghly you would know. Also I said I have never used the expression "eytie", though do know some who have and do. You may challenge me all you like, at least anything I say and believe. That is your privilege and I dont mond and in fact relish it, for I like nothing better than a barney about an issue of substance. Actually about anything really but thats another matter! But you have made certain accusations about me as a person, which I consider personal and do not like one bit!

Firstly, the inference that "franspeak" can be considered racist. Franspeak is a corruption Txtspeak, used by me and my friends and many others to one degree or other for all I know, when Instant Messaging each other on the PC. If "Franspeak" is to be considered racist, is txtspeak, a tool used buy millions on their mobby to save time and money? I think not. I use it in chat and often in post because I do have a sense of humour and it is an extension of my personality. Yes I am often too flippant, sometimes too cutting, but by no stretch of the imagination can I be considered racist.

We all need challenging sometimes, or we do get to be arrogant, and I dont mind if there is justification for the challenge. I have been challenged before for my use of "patois" and thats fine. Some people like it some dont. It is many things hun, but its not racist.

[darkeyes]

I dont mind the fact that this thread had expanded into something far more broad than the original post. It is actually healthy, but I am watching people I love beginning to get right ratty and tetchy with each other. Can we chill babes all? Take a breath and take stock and ask ourselves what is being achieved?

[CuddlyKate]

Sarasvati, darkeyes can defend herself well enough and in any case she asked me to keep out of it but I can't. There are some things which you may like to know about her since after all I live with her and know her better than anyone else.

First of all nothing she does or says can ever be construed as racist. I have never heard her use the word chinky for all all her admission. Nor has she ever used the expression eytie. Just out of interest you may wish to know she has often come to the defence of asian and black people some risk to her own safety. Just as she has done for any she considers is being unjustly picked on. She is actively an anti racist and her socialist beliefs would allow her to be nothing else. She sees people as people not as people of race. One of her stock phrases is that "we are all Jock Thomsons bairns", a commonly used expression up here to say that we are all the same under the skin. Her favourite poet is Robert Burns, the poet of the common man, and one of her favourite songs of his is " A man's a man for a' that". It is her theme for humanity. Read it.

Certainly "Franspeak" can be a trial to the uninitiated. How it can be construed as racist escapes me, since it is not based on any patois as you think, merely on her sense of fun and as a way of her communicating with her friends. It is as she says a corruption of Textspeak which I use on my mobile but not generally in chat or instant messaging.

She can be silly, and often is. She can be infuriating. She can be very biting. She is in short hugely maddening. But she loves her friends and will go to the ends of the earth to avoid hurting them and loves nothing better than pleasing them and making them laugh. To contradict your impression however, she will not hold back when a truth must be told, nor will she do something simply to please and impress. I know this better than any, because she can be very difficult at times. Yet I would rather have her in my life than not, as would all who know her, for all she makes us tear out our hair sometimes.

[Sarasvati]

Darkeyes

Reading your comments I accept my challenge to you is defeated and I apologise for misrepresenting you.

I find racism repulsive and the scent of it fires up my spirit and sometimes I stumble in the wrong direction as a result. You are clearly the wrong target of my fire. I apologise.

I have been on a jury in which the defendent was a black man and been in the minority thinking him not guilty. I fought long and hard to kick out any racism from among my fellow jurors to ensure he was tried for the crime not for being black.

Many years ago I was invited to dinner by a close friend and a comment was made inducing laughter from the group, "What is worse, being black or gay?"

I had no choice. I had to get up and leave - otherwise I was condoning the comment. For me, it was a stuffy, arrogant, ignorant comment. Many of the greatest people on our planet are black or gay.

It's necessary with such things to stand up, even against your friends.

[biwords]

Please, this is not *my* approach. This is the way it is done in the UK when police are investigating hate crime incidents.
I cannot state that plainly enough.
D

OK. I called it 'your' approach only because you'd initially written (without reference to the UK law): "If someone was offended, the comment was offensive. If someone felt offended because they thought it was a racist comment, it was a racist comment...If someone found the word "jap" racially offensive, it was racially offensive. End of".

[blew bi me]

Lighten up people! It seems we spend so much time trying to be politically correct that we can't even speak our minds anymore.

As for the word "Jap", I do prefer to use the more politically correct phrase: "the wonderful people that brought us Pearl Harbor."

[Long Duck Dong]

lol makes you wonder what they call the wonderful people that introduced them to the nuke


I was talking to a friend tonight and they said that the worst insult they have ever been called, was * politically correct and sexuality, racial and cultural sensitive *
that got my attention immeditately and I said, why is that a insult.....???
he said, cos it implies that I crawl up everybodies ass to make them happy while they couldn't give a shit about me, and i'm not that fucking stupid...

that got me thinking....and in a way its right...... while we are busy defending the rights of others.... most of them don't even know we exist....or care

[Skater Boy]

Many years ago I was invited to dinner by a close friend and a comment was made inducing laughter from the group, "What is worse, being black or gay?"


To add the punchline to that one:

Its better to be black than gay because when you're black you don't have to think of a way to tell your parents! :bigrin:

Oh dear, I've done it now... :eek:

[midtnbi8669]

All this over the word "JAP"??? Good God people....some folks need to grow and extra layer of skin and get over it.

Since I am a member of the only ethnic group you can actually make slurs against and its acceptable (White Male), I guess I'm more used to it. I've been called "Cracker", "Whitey", "Master", etc... and you know what? I don't give a shit.

I could care less what people say about me or any other group for that matter. Now why is that? Because I simply consider the source and go on about my business. Evidently I have better things to do than worry about what others say, in jest or seriously. I believe that the people who get the most offended are the people with the least respect for themselves anyway.

Why make your own life miserable worrying about what other people say and think when you have no control over it anyway? Instead of making a federal case of a perceived insult, how about simply saying "Fuck You", walk away and forget about it?

Political correctness is out of control in this country and trying to limit another's RIGHT to say stupid shit is definately not the answer. By ignoring the slurs as well as the people who make them, it negates the comment as
well as the person who makes it. By blowing it off and NOT giving them the response they are looking for will put a quicker end to racism and intolerance than anything else. If its no fun for them anymore, guess what?
They will find something else to do.

From now until the end of time, there will be people who hate. These are little minded people who make no difference in in the grand scheme of things anyway, so why give them credence by paying any attention to them whatsoever???

I fully expect to be bashed by those here that don't agree with what I have just said, but you know what? I don't give a shit about those comments either! :bigrin:

[Azrael]

Alright. I was going to leave this alone, but I feel I have some perspective to offer on the matter. First of all, I don't think this is a big deal. Certain colloquialisms are burned into our lexicon, like it or not. I work in a kitchen, an incredibly loose constantly 'playing pranks calling names and giving each other shit' type of environment. My kitchen manager is black. The kitchen was free of racial humor til he opened the proverbial pandora's box. We fuck with him constantly, and he rols with it and messes right back with us. It should be noted, unlike any other place I've worked, we're pretty much all good friends of several years. It's a huge dysfunctional family of sorts. One day my KM got all pissy with me, and I got pissy right back. Here's why. He makes all sorts of fried chicken and watermelon and purple koolaid jokes and shit. One day I was like "get that fried chicken, BOY'. He wasn't too happy about this. He says "Stop calling me boy". I say, 'Fine, stop calling ME a fag". (my partner amy gave me this 'stay the fuck calm" look, which I heeded. He takes me outside and gives me "the talk". "Do you have some type of problem with me?" he says. I flatly state, "No, but I'm still a little irked about you calling me a fag a few weeks ago. If I had a serious problem with you, I'd tell you right to your face.".
He's like "when did I call you a fag?" I say "a few weeks ago. and then I told you if you call me a fag again you're going to make me very angry. and you went FAG! and walked away". All of a sudden it dawned on him and he goes "Oh."
So that day we settle it like men and basically reach a mutual, I won't piss in your cheerios if u do the same for me. We don't really talk for the rest of the day because both of our egos are still flaring a little, I smoke some dope and go back to cooking.
Next day he's a little pissy in the morning. I feel bad, not that I was really a dick to him the day before, I was as calm and strictly business as possible about it, just asserted myself.
I go up to him while he's setting up saute and say "listen, man, I don't want you to think I got any bad blood, I respect you."
Here's where things get interesting. I expected him to be like "yeah right"
He actually put his foot in his mouth and apologized and said, "I know none of us actually mean anything with all the racial humor here, I just don't want EVRRYONE (i.e. non kitchen people) to think they can talk to me like that."
I'm like "fair enough".
He then says "Listen, I had no idea you were that offended by it, I really didn't know about your sexual preferences, but I want you to know I respect you."
I'm like "we cool?"
he's like "hell ya"
A hearty handshake, and that was the story of coming out at work.
Point is, inflection or intended effect of such words, regardless of what they are of mean is not always easy to interpret. He didn't realize he was insulting me because he was just messing with another guy like guys do, and like cooks do. Same goes with me and my remarks. We call it 'the game' in the kitchen.
Only rule is if your skin's too thin, don't play the game. Gotta be able to laugh at yourself. I get loose as hell with the humor of all types of work, but we have to remember to reel it in and exercise a little *gasp* restraint.
Just my :2cents:

Oh, that 'flashing your genitals and kicking people in the ass?' game? We do that :bigrin:
We take it a step further and picture message our junk. At one point I had testicle shots of ALL the night cooks in my phone :P

[Skater Boy]

The key words in this thread are:

Intent
Over-sensitivity
Sensitivity
Respect
Mutual Understanding

The addresser has a responsibility to be SENSITIVE to the addressee's feelings and RESPECT his/her boundries. The addresee has the responsibility to not be OVER-SENSITIVE about the addresser's words and to RESPECT his/her freedom of expression. Both the addresser and the addressee should consider the INTENT behind the words before using them or making any conclusions. And both have the obligation to ensure that a MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING is reached between them concerning what the addresser says, and how the addressee interprets it.

:2cents:

[darkeyes]

Darkeyes

Reading your comments I accept my challenge to you is defeated and I apologise for misrepresenting you.

I find racism repulsive and the scent of it fires up my spirit and sometimes I stumble in the wrong direction as a result. You are clearly the wrong target of my fire. I apologise.

I have been on a jury in which the defendent was a black man and been in the minority thinking him not guilty. I fought long and hard to kick out any racism from among my fellow jurors to ensure he was tried for the crime not for being black.

Many years ago I was invited to dinner by a close friend and a comment was made inducing laughter from the group, "What is worse, being black or gay?"

I had no choice. I had to get up and leave - otherwise I was condoning the comment. For me, it was a stuffy, arrogant, ignorant comment. Many of the greatest people on our planet are black or gay.

It's necessary with such things to stand up, even against your friends.
No need 2 apologise babes.. jus disappointed ya don wanna carry on a row. Tee hee.

Seriously you and I have 1 thing in common at least.. the loathing and hatred of racism. Think we cud b gr8 m8s given half a chance. Now we got it sorted...lets huh?:)

[darkeyes]

Me thinks its reely funny how sensitive white peeps r bout bein called names..an how touchy they get bout not bein able 2 call otha races names. Makes ya wonder wot all the fuss is about now the boot is at least in part on the otha foot!

[Azrael]

Me thinks its reely funny how sensitive white peeps r bout bein called names..an how touchy they get bout not bein able 2 call otha races names. Makes ya wonder wot all the fuss is about now the boot is at least in part on the otha foot!

I don't mind being called a cracker (I live in Florida).
Or whitey (I am white)
Or master (hey, if u wanna call me that I won't stop you)
Point is, my black friends and I have a playful understanding about this. If one of us goes too far, we take it in good stride and talk it out.
I even let certain people call me a fag. But most haven't earned that.
It all depends on what sort of sense of humor you have and how well you can take a joke.
It's like when one black guy calls another black guy a nigger.
I call myself a queer, because I'm not straight, and I am a little strange. but it fits. But some random person doing it to give me or one of my friends shit, I'm like "Fuck you, that is OUR word".
It all depends on context. And the people involved.
Moral of the story, try not to be a douche :bigrin:

[Azrael]

Oh, and the next person who talks shit to Arana can consider themselves in my crosshairs. I DON'T CARE WHO. In the 21 months registered and 9 as a guest I've been on here I've never seen her do anything but try to brighten people's days, help out the noobs, and make people smile. Messing with 'ran is messing with ME.
Come get you some, if you have an appetite for insanity :mad:

[dafydd]

Lighten up people! It seems we spend so much time trying to be politically correct that we can't even speak our minds anymore.

As for the word "Jap", I do prefer to use the more politically correct phrase: "the wonderful people that brought us Pearl Harbor."


Well that's just really smart. Thanks for that:(

d

[dafydd]

All this over the word "JAP"??? Good God people....some folks need to grow and extra layer of skin and get over it.


Don't agree sorry.
If someone says, "look, I don't like that term, please don't use it", then people should respect that.
I'm don't agree with all this anti-'PC' brigade, who think people are being over sensitive. It's not about being over-sensitive, it's about being more aware nowadays than we have ever been, that people can be prejudice or offensive without knowing it, and we all need a gentle nudge now and again to remember ourselves. That's all.

d

[Skater Boy]

Well that's just really smart. Thanks for that:(

d

Hehe, I think his tongue was firmly in his cheek when he made that Post, Dave. Although I may be wrong.

The way I see it, it takes (at least) 2 people to communicate, so its a 2-way street. If everyone has a sensible level of respect for their partner (and themself) in each "transaction", then these problems are less likely to occur.

[dafydd]

Hehe, I think his tongue was firmly in his cheek when he made that Post, Dave. Although I may be wrong.

The way I see it, it takes (at least) 2 people to communicate, so its a 2-way street. If everyone has a sensible level of respect for their partner (and themself) in each "transaction", then these problems are less likely to occur.

Thanks for your measured responses SB. It's always good to have a mediator.
:flag1:
d

[Long Duck Dong]

Don't agree sorry.
If someone says, "look, I don't like that term, please don't use it", then people should respect that.
I'm don't agree with all this anti-'PC' brigade, who think people are being over sensitive. It's not about being over-sensitive, it's about being more aware nowadays than we have ever been, that people can be prejudice or offensive without knowing it, and we all need a gentle nudge now and again to remember ourselves. That's all.

d

ok, I am a nz'er ( actually i was born in scotland but reside in nz )

the term * sheep shagger has been applied to me on a number of occasions...
in a totally humourous way, and thats the way I took it.....and replied with a equally non PC term of my own

now, I have had people kick up a stink because they feel the term is offensive to nz'ers..... people that do not live in nz..... where as I do.......

so who have the right to decide what term may be used......

the pc crew that feel the term is offensive to me as a nz'er, even tho I am not offended at all........

or me, who sees the remark as what it is, a smart ass remark.....and not a offensive at all

I am willing to bet that I am gonna get told that my opinion doesn't matter cos the term * sheep shagger / fucker, is offensive other nz'ers

my answer to that remark, if it does come up.......is that nz haver 4.1 million people in it.... I have never seen 40 of them in the chatoom......I have seen 4..... and none of them said the term was offensive......

[dafydd]

ok, I am a nz'er ( actually i was born in scotland but reside in nz )

the term * sheep shagger has been applied to me on a number of occasions...
in a totally humourous way, and thats the way I took it.....and replied with a equally non PC term of my own

now, I have had people kick up a stink because they feel the term is offensive to nz'ers..... people that do not live in nz..... where as I do.......

so who have the right to decide what term may be used......

the pc crew that feel the term is offensive to me as a nz'er, even tho I am not offended at all........

or me, who sees the remark as what it is, a smart ass remark.....and not a offensive at all

I am willing to bet that I am gonna get told that my opinion doesn't matter cos the term * sheep shagger / fucker, is offensive other nz'ers

my answer to that remark, if it does come up.......is that nz haver 4.1 million people in it.... I have never seen 40 of them in the chatoom......I have seen 4..... and none of them said the term was offensive......

Well don't forget you're talking to a Welshman. We also have our difficult history with that phrase.
And yes I wouldn't use it, or condone its use.

d

[darkeyes]

ok, I am a nz'er ( actually i was born in scotland but reside in nz )

......

Knew ther wos a reason me liked ya Duckie.. tee hee..

[coyotedude]

Was planning to stay out of this one, but PC bashing is a huge pet peeve of mine. (The other big one is tailgating, in case you were interested.)

(1) Words have power. Like it or not, words can hurt, even when we don't intend them to.

(2) People who are sensitive to derogatory words usually have a reason for their sensitivity. Not always, perhaps, but more than the rest of us care to admit.

(3) In my part of the United States, the term "jap" is a very ugly, very hurtful word with a very painful history. Whether it is so in other parts of the country or the world, I don't know.

(4) I believe that GEL did not intend to use the word in a derogatory or hurtful way. I was not in the chat room at the time, but I accept her explanation that she was just trying to avoid typing anything longer. She did apologize for inadvertently causing any pain. Like me, she's only human. (God knows I've made worse mistakes than this!)

(5) "Political correctness" is a myth perpetuated by those who don't want to take responsibility for how they use words. And "political incorrectness" is an excuse to use any word you want for any reason while muzzling my right to call you an asshole for your choice.

Sorry, that doesn't work for me. If you have the right to use any word -- which you most certainly do -- then so do I. Even if it's the word "asshole" in reference to you.

(6) Every person posting to this thread has prejudices and biases. Every single one of us -- whether we want to admit it or not. (I know I don't want to admit my biases. But deep down, I know I have them, too.)

I'm not saying we can't joke around and have fun. Of course we can and do!

All I'm really saying is that my mama taught me I should be respectful to other people.

Weren't you taught the same thing?

Peace

[Skater Boy]

(6) "Political correctness" is a myth perpetuated by those who don't want to take responsibility for how they use words. You have the right to use absolutely any word you want for any reason. And I have the right to call you an asshole for your choice. That's not "political correctness." That's just me exercising the same right as you.

(8) As this thread so amply demonstrates, common sense is sadly not common.

I'm not saying we can't joke around and have fun. Of course! All I'm really saying is that my mama taught me I should be respectful to other people.

Didn't your parents/guardians/loved ones teach you the same thing?

Peace

"Political correctness is a myth perpetuated by those who don't want to take responsibility for how they use words" ...erm, is it? IMHO political correctness is just an invention created to avoid offending others. And isn't that the point of your post?

We might not need "political correctness" if everyone had a healthy sense of self-respect, and respect for others. But in the cases when the afore-mentioned things are are not in their ideal states, this political correctness serves as a tool which works in the interests of civility.

:2cents:

[coyotedude]

One other thought:

People sometimes rail about the list of words we can or cannot use as a part of so-called political correctness.

To me, that's the cheaters' way out at best, and a bullshit excuse at worst. You don't need to check your speech against some list of words that changes from day to day, location to location, and context to context.

All I expect is that you actually think a little bit when speaking. After all, there is a reason you and I have that mushy gray crap inside our skulls. Maybe if we all used our brains just a little more, there'd be a lot less shit in the world.

But then, I'm probably asking too much, aren't I?

Peace

[coyotedude]

"Political correctness is a myth perpetuated by those who don't want to take responsibility for how they use words" ...erm, is it? IMHO political correctness is just an invention created to avoid offending others. And isn't that the point of your post?

We might not need "political correctness" if everyone had a healthy sense of self-respect, and respect for others. But in the cases when the afore-mentioned things are are not in their ideal states, this political correctness serves as a tool which works in the interests of civility.

:2cents:

Interesting observation, SB. I don't know that I agree, however, but it is an interesting point, nonetheless!

To me (as you noted), it all boils down to respect. But respect goes beyond what's considered "PC". Respect is not just a bunch of words that you are allowed or not allowed to use. Rather, it's how you approach people in everyday life.

I don't avoid the word "nigger", for example, just because it's on someone's list of bad words. I avoid the word because it's hurtful. It's not respectful. It hurts people.

Why do people have a problem with that simple concept?

You know, we can't live life without offending someone at some point. It's just not possible. But part of being respectful means acknowledging when you've screwed up, right?

Is that "political correctness" -- or is that just the right thing to do?

Here's another thought I've often had about political correctness (which I suppose contradicts my assertion #6 above):

In the USA, at any rate, it is actually more politically correct to bash "political correctness" than it is to be "politically correct".

Peace

[Skater Boy]

I think I agree with what you're saying, Coyote. But not everyone in the world is as honestly "respectful" of others as we would like. True enough, its much better to be sincerely respectful, than to merely "follow the rules" of political correctness out of social obligation. I think in this case, being "PC" is a preventative rather than a cure. Its not the true answer to our social troubles, but rather an invention that helps ease the underlying tensions and prevent them from spilling over. Perhaps one day, society as a whole will be mature enough not to rely on using politically correct terms.

Fingers crossed...

[Dreamcast]

I don't consider 'Jap' a racial slur...its just short for 'Japanese'! >_<

[darkeyes]

I don't consider 'Jap' a racial slur...its just short for 'Japanese'! >_<

Just how much of this thread havya taken in??? Not 2 much it seems 2 me....

[coyotedude]

Hi, SB. Sorry I didn't get a chance to elaborate in my prior post - Mrs. Coyote and the kids came home and I had to go make lunch. (Food is an important part of any coyote's day, don't you know!)

I think I see where you're coming from, and it makes sense to a point. I think that if you define political correctness as, say, the expectations that society has for acceptable or reasonable speech and behavior, then certainly I would agree that -- in a general sense -- political correctness is a simple fact of life in any society. But when we're talking about how people commonly define "political correctness", there's a catch.

Let me illustrate this way. When I write:

politically correct
political correctness
PC

do those words have a positive or negative connotation for you? What would you expect the answer to be from any 10 people you meet on the street? My expectation is that 9 out of 10 would tell you these words have a negative connotation.

Similarly, review all the posts to this particular thread. In general, are the words "political correctness", "politically correct", or "PC" used in positive or a negative sense? My conclusion is that the terms are used negatively, not positively.

My assertion is that "political correctness" has nearly always been considered a derogatory term. It is the butt of countless jokes and the cause of whining from countless people in our society. In other words, in the general sense of the term, it is politically correct in our society (and others as well) to bash "political correctness". To support "political correctness" is to be politically incorrect.

This is why I call "political correctness" a myth. At best, it is badly misnamed.

Ironically, what I think offends most people about "political correctness" is not necessarily the goals of tolerance, acceptance, and respect. I believe that people are offended when those goals are pursued in an intolerant and hypocritical fashion. I can understand and appreciate that concern.

Yet tell me: who has the most to gain from bashing "political correctness" and the goals of tolerance, acceptance, and respect? To be brutally blunt, the only ones who truly gain are assholes who don't want to be held accountable for the harm done by the words they use and the meanings behind those words.

This is not meant to say that all people who bash "political correctness" are assholes. It does mean that -- in my opinion -- too many people buy into the myth. They focus so much on the myth that they lose sight of the larger goal -- the goal of respect for all human beings.

Here's the true irony. As bisexuals, we are politically incorrect. Most straights and even many gays don't like us and don't accept us. When do you think there will be an openly bisexual president in the US? Yet so-called "political correctness" maintains that we should respect all people regardless of sexual orientation. Go figure.

I think I'm gonna change my signature. A wise man once said that "Text, without context, is pretext." I think that applies to this discussion as well as any....

Peace

[coyotedude]

I don't consider 'Jap' a racial slur...its just short for 'Japanese'! >_<

Oh, buddy, you really have no clue, do you? Guess I can't hold that against you, but let me offer you a little piece of advice:

Don't ever use the word "jap" with someone of Japanese descent unless you want to get the crap kicked out of you!

Seriously, though: during WWII the word "jap" was used exclusively as a derogatory term against the Japanese. I suppose that's somewhat understandable; we were at war with Japan, after all. Yet it was undeniably an ugly word, and it was meant to be so; it was applied to the hated enemy who bombed Pearl Harbor and who threatened our way of life. And it was also applied to loyal, patriotic Americans who just happened to be of Japanese descent.

On the West Coast, Japanese Americans were herded into concentration camps regardless of their political opinions, solely on the basis of their birth heritage. To be fair, our concentration camps were much nicer than those of the Nazis -- but that's not saying much, now, is it? Thousands of Japanese Americans fought bravely and died for their country, but they were still "japs" to their countrymen. And those in the camps lost everything -- homes, livelihoods, everything.

But don't take my word for it. Talk to the old timers who lived through the war. Look up the old news articles and read them for yourself. Do the research online.

Then come tell me that "jap" is not a derogatory term.

Peace

[Sapphrodite]

Now take a deep breath all, and relax... maybe part of the story is missing and it's leading to more confusion. I was on the phone with her shortly thereafter and she was crying and very upset because she didnt know what she had done wrong. GEL was not aware that "Jap" as a word had any negative connotation: she honestly just thought that it was an acceptable way to short-spell Japanese and didnt even know it was a negative slur.

Now I'm guessing a few of you have watched South Park: remember when the boys didnt want them to change the city's flag depicting a lynch mob because it was part of the town history? Everyone was outraged because they thought the boys were raised as racist. Well the boys only saw a man was getting hung, not 'white men hanging a black man'. GEL only saw a short-form, not a slur, and therefore felt like she was drop-tackled not understanding what the hell happened, and therefore was defensive to being called racist in chat.

Though it might be hard to believe, there are whole new generations of people who havent had much racial comment used as a part of our vocablary: I grew up in a culturally diverse school where no one used these kinds of words; I rarely watch violent or war movies, so I dont have those words in my day-to-day life, and maybe it's the mandatory Canadian programming but I dont get exposed to that kinda stuff on my comedy or HBO channels. We're two generations away from Pearl Harbour, and though we can look back on it with reverence, most of us only have history books to reflect on, and I'm pretty sure they dont use derrogatory terms.

Did anyone considered that GEL mistook Michael's reiteration of the word as meaning he didnt know what she meant by her short form?? I wish I had saved that chat so there wouldnt have been so much confusion. All she wanted was to not look stupid in front of you all for bad spelling, and now she's getting beat about for being racist. Having had the fortune of meeting GEL and many her friends in person, I am willing to take her apology at face-value, feeling certain that the next time she wants to shorten a word, that she'll get out her dictionary instead.... :three:

~ Sapphy ~

[Skater Boy]

Ironically, what I think offends most people about "political correctness" is not necessarily the goals of tolerance, acceptance, and respect. I believe that people are offended when those goals are pursued in an intolerant and hypocritical fashion. I can understand and appreciate that concern.

Yet tell me: who has the most to gain from bashing "political correctness" and the goals of tolerance, acceptance, and respect? To be brutally blunt, the only ones who truly gain are assholes who don't want to be held accountable for the harm done by the words they use and the meanings behind those words.

Yes... that is the bottom line, IMHO. The way I see it, we can either have agreed "guidelines" on how to be inoffensive and diplomatic to others, or we can leave it down to the individual and chance. Guidelines are by no means required, and should certainly not be imposed in an intolerant and hypocritical fashion. If we leave it down to the individual and chance, there will always be individuals who cause offense to others out of ignorance (or worse). But if we create "guidelines" we are imposing something on people that they may not want. Its a no-win situation. But IMHO anything that minimizes the offending of other people can only be a good thing, provided that it is generally agreed upon by everyone concerned. Thus, political correctness is not a necessity in EVERY situation, and for every person. But in certain circumstances where one is unsure of one's footing, it would certainly be wise use it.

This is not meant to say that all people who bash "political correctness" are assholes. It does mean that -- in my opinion -- too many people buy into the myth. They focus so much on the myth that they lose sight of the larger goal -- the goal of respect for all human beings.

Erm... buying into a "myth" of respect and civility is better than the opposite, or perhaps even doing nothing at all. But agreed... "respect for all human beings" is the ultimate goal. If we could/can find a way of achieving that, then society would probably be perfect. A Utopia... and "Politically Correctness" would be an obsolete concept.

Nice for me to consider both sides of the argument, though... thanks Coyote!

[Skater Boy]

Now take a deep breath all, and relax... maybe part of the story is missing and it's leading to more confusion. I was on the phone with her shortly thereafter and she was crying and very upset because she didnt know what she had done wrong. GEL was not aware that "Jap" as a word had any negative connotation: she honestly just thought that it was an acceptable way to short-spell Japanese and didnt even know it was a negative slur.

Personally, there is little doubt in my mind that GEL had any hostile or negative intentions when she used the word. From what I can see, we are all just using it as an opportunity to discuss the issues surrounding offensive language.

However, I do hope that GEL (and the rest of us) are now aware of just how easily our words can be construed as offensive to others.

[coyotedude]

Sapphy, sweetie, I don't doubt that GEL (whose also a sweetie, BTW) had no clue about the term. If she had known, I sincerely doubt she would have used it!

I wonder if we on the West Coast are a little more aware because of our history and our relations with the other Pacific nations. (What do you think, other West Coasters?) The war with Japan and the Japanese internment had a huge impact on this region. My dad's mom lost her first husband at Pearl Harbor; my mom's dad and step-dad both fought the Japanese (one in Burma/Myanmar, the other in Alaska). My mother-in-law was 7 when the war broke out and still has some vivid memories of life on the home front. And I grew up within minutes of one of the main gathering points for the Japanese internment.

The internment is part of our history here -- a shameful part, to be sure. For those interested in learning more, here's a link from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese-American_internment

Also if you're ever in the Seattle region, I encourage you to visit the Washington State History Museum in Tacoma (about 35 miles south of Seattle) for an exhibit on the Japanese internment. There may be even better ones at the Wing Luke Museum and some others in Seattle, too -- just not sure....

I believe there are efforts underway to convert some of the old camps to national parks. Don't know where those efforts stand, however.

Peace

[coyotedude]

Point taken, skater dude!

Damn, why ya gotta be across the other pond?

Peace

[pogostiks]

So what it comes down to then is that "racist" is purely subjective.

I asked my Japanese friend and her first reply was "Yes, "Jap" is offensive... it was used against us during the war".

I then reminded her that the REAL negative term (during the war) was either "Nips" or "Gooks"... I then told her the context from this thread, - where, if I'm not mistaken, someone said something to the effect of "My friend is half-Jap, half-Hawaiian"

At that point my Japanese friend said that the context made it obvious that there was no hurt intended and that in that context she would not be offended. She also admitted that she herself has often written the word "Jap" as a shorter and quicker way for "Japanese".

I therefore state that it is not really the word "Jap" that is offensive but rather CONTEXT and INTENT.

You can say "He's a Jew"... and it can be totally non-offensive, or it can be an enormous insult. It all depends on the intonation and context.

Example: If someone says (and I've heard people say this) " I was jewed out of my money by that son-of-a-bitch!"
Well, is there ANYONE who would not term that anti-Semitic?

But, what if, in the same context, the person had said "I was gyped out of my money by that son-of-a-bitch! ."...would that be acceptable?

How many people today realize that the origin of the word "gyped" is Gypsy, and that the word is completely racist in origin? I would bet that most of the people here have used that term at some point in time without even realizing the racist origins. Does that make them racist? (My Japanese friend had no idea that the word "gyped" came from Gypsy...) If it were said to or about a Gypsy, then I think it would be offensive. Otherwise, it seems that the word has entered the language and become such common usage that insisting that it is racist is perhaps exaggerating. Today, if someone say that he has been "gyped", he is no longer making the link to the origin of teh word, and it could be argued that the word has lost its racist connotation.

One last example.
I teach English in Paris. One day I heard a student say (I'm translating directly from French now) "That's not very Catholic."

What was meant by this was that something was rather suspect, not to be entirely trusted. As a Jew I was immediately offended, and I told my student that it was unacceptable to say that something "isn't very Catholic".
My student asked me how we might say this same idea in English... and then I laughed, because I realized that in English we might quite possible say
"That's not Kosher!"

The point I'm trying to make here is that saying that someone or something "is not very Catholic" is obviously, from a historical perspective, a terrible insult to all who are NOT Catholic. But then my Jewish students told me that THEY use the expression all the time. It has become so common a phrase that until I pointed it out to them they had not even bothered to think of the implications of such a sentence.

So does that mean that because I, as a foreigner, am offended by a phrase which is considered by everyone in France to be normal, that suddenly the entire French nation should banish the phrase from the language? I don't think so. The phrase has lost its historical edge, and my "sensitivity" to the word is more from the fact that French is not my mother tongue and that I am a foreigner rather than because the phrase is still, in today's context, insulting.

[biwords]

The way I see it, we can either have agreed "guidelines" on how to be inoffensive and diplomatic to others, or we can leave it down to the individual and chance.

The problem is that the guidelines aren't agreed on, they're legislated (formally or informally) by some and imposed on others, on pain of various penalties including, for example, job loss. Agreed guidelines are precisely what we need, but to be agreed on, they have to develop in an evolutionary way, as customs. Since the mid-1960's we've opted for the revolutionary rather than the evolutionary path, and that's why there's so much resistance to it, as there is to any revolution.

[biwords]

How many people today realize that the origin of the word "gyped" is Gypsy...?

And "gypsy" supposedly derives from "Egyptian", as it was wrongly assumed that the gypsies (or to use the politically correct term, Roms) were of Egyptian origin.

[Dreamcast]

Just how much of this thread havya taken in??? Not 2 much it seems 2 me....

Mmm it appears I am being told what to do by a forum junkie...hmmm...what would we say on eBaum's world...oh ya...

GTFO A-HOLE!

[raistkit]

TROLL ALERT

dreamcast: grow up and get a life, or if you prefer go back to eBaum's world.


darkeyes: i know you don't need my help, but you've got my support, i think this silly little boy needs a lesson in manners .

kit

[Dreamcast]

dreamcast: grow up and get a life, or if you prefer go back to eBaum's world.

This (http://youtube.com/watch?v=q54ALPxEYfQ) ones just for you!

Listen at 1:08. AND LISTEN REAL GOOD!

Its a good sawng too :P

[Long Duck Dong]

I laugh at all the stink kicked up over a simple word......* jap *.... well its mildy offensive to some people

so can the PC crew wannabes's please justify the following cases

in nz, 3 children has died from child abuse in the last 4 months in year.....
the same culture and race are responsible for those deaths.... and nz's epidemically high rates of child abuse

now if the race or culture is addressed as the main group involved in child abuse cases and singled out in a few areas the person will get called racist and culturally insensitive and possibly lose their jobs

so it appears that its more important to be PC than concerned about the lives of children

case two.....

in nz, 60% of all kids games that involve exercise such as running, exercise, and general horse play... are on the short list to be banned as a form of child abuse

the PC brigade that is fighting peoples rights to speak out against the epidemic child abuse cos it may offend the race / culture responsible, now want exercise banned as a form of abuse child......

case three

the LGBT is slowly gaining recognization in nz as a group that deserves equal treatment.....

now the interesting aspect is that the PC brigade wants to limit all LGBT advertising as its offensive to some religions and cultures....and wants cultures and religions to have the right to express their views, which are clearly homophobic

case four... in nz, there are two main cultures, the maori and the non maori....
the maori was to be addressed as the native race of nz... ( they are not the native race of nz.... and that has been proven )
as the * native * race of nz, they want rights afforded to them which others are not allowed.....

the PC brigade wish to have the rights of the maori acknowledged.... in that they may call themselves new zealander's on official forms....as its PC to respect their culture
a non maori is only allowed to use the terms, NZ european....which also applies to any person that is born in nz
any other race or culture, that is born in nz, is not allowed to call themselves a NZ african, or nz asian, or nz indian etc etc

why ??? cos its offensive to some groups of nz'ers, as the PC brigade say.....

now I would love to see the PC crew tell me how that works......


meanwhile, I will continue to use non PC terms in the forum..... as my intention is not to offend anybody.... but with so many people in the forum... there is more than enuf differing opinions, to say that anything I post, is offensive....and because I can't please everybody, I will just go out of my way, to respect those that respect me......

and sheep shagger / fucker, is something that anybody may feel free to call me, I do not find it offensive

[dafydd]

The way I see it, we can either have agreed "guidelines" on how to be inoffensive and diplomatic to others, or we can leave it down to the individual and chance.

The problem is that the guidelines aren't agreed on, they're legislated (formally or informally) by some and imposed on others, on pain of various penalties including, for example, job loss. Agreed guidelines are precisely what we need, but to be agreed on, they have to develop in an evolutionary way, as customs. Since the mid-1960's we've opted for the revolutionary rather than the evolutionary path, and that's why there's so much resistance to it, as there is to any revolution.

That revolution has provided LGBT people like yourself a legal backbone in the UK. That revolution has led to the creation of the Sexual Orientations Regulations 2003 and the Goods and Services Act 2007 which now make it illegal to discriminate in work or refuse services for LGBT people. It also enabled to take my extremley homophobic boss to a tribunal. I'm glad it's there. You should be too.

D

[darkeyes]

Resistance 2 ne revolution is resistance by those that hav lots 2 lose .. me agrees wiv daffie.. prob is the revolution aint been movin fast enuff...

[darkeyes]

Mmm it appears I am being told what to do by a forum junkie...hmmm...what would we say on eBaum's world...oh ya...

GTFO A-HOLE!

Dus ya know the diff tween a question an an order Dreamcastoff?? Sumhow don think its me thats the arsehole!!!!:female:

[Long Duck Dong]

lol darkeyes, I agree with *daffie * as well

its good to use PC stuff used constructively.... in the workplace etc
thats good to see, its positive and can help in many areas

but the moment its pushed into chatrooms and forums, is when the shit hits the fan

thats when I object to PC stuff...

with a multi demonational, multi cultural, multi racial type community chat and forum.... there is a vast difference in communications.....and one form I love, is franspeak

I love franspeak.....its cool, unique and yeah it can be hard to read at times ( i am not good at txt stuff ).....and I hope that it remains part of this forum
but I am wondering how long it is, before people start saying thats its not PC and its offensive......

if we ever lost franspeak, we lose a unique part of the forum and a aspect of a unique person, that makes the forum, fun to read

I hope that the pc crew realise the true impact of forcing people to conform to a single standard in the forum and chatroom

[biwords]

That revolution has provided LGBT people like yourself a legal backbone in the UK. That revolution has led to the creation of the Sexual Orientations Regulations 2003 and the Goods and Services Act 2007 which now make it illegal to discriminate in work or refuse services for LGBT people. It also enabled to take my extremley homophobic boss to a tribunal. I'm glad it's there. You should be too.

D

Revolutions are complex things, and it's hard to look at any of them closely without mixed feelings, unless one is an ideologue. (Not pointing fingers there, just stating my belief).

[Skater Boy]

Gawd people... "Political Correctness" is just a form of "organized diplomacy". There are no regulations whatsoever dictating how, when, and why it is to be used. So if you decide your own personal diplomacy skills are better than the supposedly agreed PC terms, then please do use them.

As for Biwords' suggestion, perhaps the various communities within society should get together and agree for themselves which terms are offensive, and which aren't. That way, Political Correctness may actually be a democratically agreed thing.

[AdamKadmon43]

True story.

There is a restaurant in Louisville, Colorado called the Blue Parrot. Said Restaurant was opened in 1919 by a family of Italian immigrants and is still to this day owned and operated by their (Italian) descendents. For the past 50 YEARS, there has been a very popular item on the menu called a "WOP BURGER". No one in all that time had ever found the burger to be offensive until recently when a visitor from New York traveling through the area stopped at the restaurant. He became quite incensed and irate at what he considered to be an insult to his (partly) Italian heritage, and launched a campaign to have the offensive burger removed from the menu. Because the restaurant's contract with the local school district was being jeopardized by the issue, they were eventually forced to do so.

I am not suggesting that is is proper for anyone (including Italians) to call Italians "wops". Just pointing out the absurdity of the current notions of political correctness. Why is it that, in the arena of racial and ethnic sensitivity, as all other aspects of human life, we must go from one ridiculous extreme to the other ???

As far as the "Jap" business is concerned, I am not real sure that I understand why it would be any more offensive to call a Japanese person a Jap than it would be to, say for example, call a Scottish person a Scot.

I know, I know..... here come the lectures about "intent", and "context", etc., etc.

Thank you for allowing my humble thoughts on the matter to be presented.

Adam

[darkeyes]

Awwww Duckie..yas luffly... ta.. will keep it goin jus for u.. tee hee

PC.. Franspeak Dictionary definition.. care an consideration for the sensitivities of others... thinkin fore ya open ya big gob (not always a strong point of mine Duckie soz!! Me 2 emotional for that!! But me tries...).. avoidin hurtin peeps feelins by thotlessness.. not humiliatin peeps wenyas found ther weaknesses.. not humiliatin peeps period!! Gettin stuck inta peeps wen they don follow the rules of PC a la Fran.:tong:

[Skater Boy]

I am not real sure that I understand why it would be any more offensive to call a Japanese person a Jap than it would be to, say for example, call a Scottish person a Scot.

Dude, its probably for that very reason that Political Correctness was invented.

:2cents:

[dafydd]

I think people are missing the point. For me, it's not about being 'politically correct'. If I said something that offended someone on this forum, I would not want that. If somebody in a chat room, said to me "actually, what you've said offended me" i would want to examine my use of language.
Some people on this forum are too hung up about appearing to concede to any notion of 'political correctness' and have a "screw you attitude, I don't care if you're offended, I won't moderate the way I say things. This is political correctness gone mad and i won't bow to it...etc".
Remember we're not talking about censoring what people say - we want to engender debate here. What we're talking about is the *way* people say it.
It's not about being 'politically correct', it's about being considered. There's no excuse to rant and rave in an offensive way when you're typing. And even if you didn't mean it to be offensive as is the case with the OP, if someone flags your language by saying "hey guys. I don't like that." you should be sensitive to this. No one is trying to take away your civil liberties to say what you want, but please we're all adults here, it's about finding a common language in which we can effectively communicate without offense.
I swear infront of my friends but I would never swear in front of my parents, because it would upset them. There are some thoughts we would share with our lovers that we would never share with our colleagues, lest it would offend them. Similarly if we know some people are upset by the use of the word "Jap" on this forum, why continue to use it? why?
I know people might think I'm banging on now but I'm glad this debate was opened up. I find it very interesting and am grateful for everyone's contributions.

d

[AdamKadmon43]

...... and sheep shagger / fucker, is something that anybody may feel free to call me, I do not find it offensive
The only problem with being a sheep fucker is that you have to stop what you are doing and walk all the way around to the front to kiss them.

:tongue:

Adam

[coyotedude]

LDD, your so-called "examples" are a great illustration of the phrase:

Text, without context, is pretext.

In other words, you're taking situations out of context to try and prove your point. That doesn't work for me.

Guess what? A race and culture weren't responsible for those 3 child deaths. Human beings were. Imperfect, flawed human beings -- just like you. (Hopefully you would never beat children. I don't think you would. But I don't know you.)

Guess what? People of European descent beat the crap out of their children, too. If you're not seeing it, then you're blind. Willfully so.

Guess what? The Maori beat you to New Zealand. They were there before you. That's doesn't make them better than you. Doesn't make them worse, either.

Guess what? Maori ain't perfect. Neither are you.

I'm not a New Zealander and I don't really know the context of some of your discussion. I'd be very interested, however, to see breakdowns of economic data between Maori and non-Maori -- who's got the money and who doesn't does have an impact on society and culture, like it or not.

I'd also like to learn more about the historic relationship between Maori and non-Maori in New Zealand. If it's the same as other places where Europeans colonized, then I would expect that the Maori got the shit kicked out of them at first and only now are starting to recover from that. If that's the case (and I honestly don't know), I would find it disingenuous that the descendants of the shit-kickers now blame those who got kicked for being injured in the first place.

But hey, that's just me. As I said earlier: you have the right to use any word you want. And I have the right to call you an asshole for it. Isn't that fair?

Peace

[coyotedude]

Adam, buddy, didn't you even read anything I wrote?

Jap was a nasty word by design. In WWII it meant "the hated enemy who bombed Pearl Harbor". The slant-eyed rice-eating Jap was a monster. Not something I'd want to be called.

Do some research, people! It's all there, if you're willing to look.

Peace

[coyotedude]

lol darkeyes, I agree with *daffie * as well

its good to use PC stuff used constructively.... in the workplace etc
thats good to see, its positive and can help in many areas

but the moment its pushed into chatrooms and forums, is when the shit hits the fan

thats when I object to PC stuff...

with a multi demonational, multi cultural, multi racial type community chat and forum.... there is a vast difference in communications.....and one form I love, is franspeak

I love franspeak.....its cool, unique and yeah it can be hard to read at times ( i am not good at txt stuff ).....and I hope that it remains part of this forum
but I am wondering how long it is, before people start saying thats its not PC and its offensive......

if we ever lost franspeak, we lose a unique part of the forum and a aspect of a unique person, that makes the forum, fun to read

I hope that the pc crew realise the true impact of forcing people to conform to a single standard in the forum and chatroom

LDD, you're deliberately misconstruing the question.

It has nothing to do with conforming to some idiotic list of words or form of speech. And if you actually read some of these posts, you'd see that.

It has to do with respect for other human beings. That's all. That's it.

What is wrong with respecting other people? Don't you deserve respect as a human being? Don't other people deserve the same respect as you?

I may call "bullshit" on you when I think you're wrong -- and would expect you to do the same when you think I am wrong. But I still respect you as a human being.

Peace

[darkeyes]

Awww Duckie..ya r luffly... yas ok..Franspeak s ere 2 stay.. an sod wot ne otha bugga sez!! (Is use of word bugga buggerist?? an sod.. soddist?? An r they the same thing?? God me dus talk such tripe sumtimes... tee hee.. oops tripist. lol)

Dude's rite of course..manners an respect for peeps is how we shud all live... me has me own definition of PC cos me mite not b perfect but dus try an not hurt peeps wiv me big mouth.

Edinburgh Franspeak Dictionary: Political Correctness - the avoidance of hurtin peeps wiv ya gob; the consideration of peeps sensitivites an actin accordingly; Not humiliatin by word or deed; the acceptance that we r all Jock Tamsons bairns irrespective of colour hence acceptance that we are the Human Race, not races; Peeps r peeps, an we shud all treat em as such by how we find em not on wer they cum from.

[coyotedude]

Awww Duckie..ya r luffly... yas ok..Franspeak s ere 2 stay.. an sod wot ne otha bugga sez!! (Is use of word bugga buggerist?? an sod.. soddist?? An r they the same thing?? God me dus talk such tripe sumtimes... tee hee.. oops tripist. lol)

Dude's rite of course..manners an respect for peeps is how we shud all live... me has me own definition of PC cos me mite not b perfect but dus try an not hurt peeps wiv me big mouth.

Edinburgh Franspeak Dictionary: Political Correctness - the avoidance of hurtin peeps wiv ya gob; the consideration of peeps sensitivites an actin accordingly; Not humiliatin by word or deed; the acceptance that we r all Jock Tamsons bairns irrespective of colour hence acceptance that we are the Human Race, not races; Peeps r peeps, an we shud all treat em as such by how we find em not on wer they cum from.

quickly looks up the meaning of "sod" and "bugga".... gives up... is hopelessly lost....

[darkeyes]

Well.. sod is etha a lump of muck n grass..or 1 who is inta sodomy..or in fact jus a silly sod..as in a silly so an so. Bugga..is txtspeak or franspeak for bugger wich means sod cept the lumpa muck bit... or bugger as in swear word 2 describe sum 1 who has jus got onya tits!

That clear dude babes??? tee hee. Readin through alla that..not sure me knows wot me talkin bout etha...:tong:

[coyotedude]

Well.. sod is etha a lump of muck n grass..or 1 who is inta sodomy..or in fact jus a silly sod..as in a silly so an so. Bugga..is txtspeak or franspeak for bugger wich means sod cept the lumpa muck bit... or bugger as in swear word 2 describe sum 1 who has jus got onya tits!

That clear dude babes??? tee hee. Readin through alla that..not sure me knows wot me talkin bout etha...:tong:

LMAO.... sure, fran, that's all nice and clear.... as mud! :eek::eek::eek:

Sigh...

[darkeyes]

LMAO.... sure, fran, that's all nice and clear.... as mud! :eek::eek::eek:

Sigh...
Gud..dus like 2 help clear peeps minds... tee hee:bigrin:

[AdamKadmon43]

Adam, buddy, didn't you even read anything I wrote?

Jap was a nasty word by design. In WWII it meant "the hated enemy who bombed Pearl Harbor". The slant-eyed rice-eating Jap was a monster. Not something I'd want to be called.

Do some research, people! It's all there, if you're willing to look.

Peace

Sorry... have not the slightest idea as to what any of that meant.

[AdamKadmon43]

Awwww Duckie..yas luffly... ta.. will keep it goin jus for u.. tee hee


You wanna know something Darkeyes ... Sometimes Franspeak makes a good deal more sense than much of the other stuff in here ever does.

Thank you for being you, and thank you for putting up with me....

Adam

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

There are SO many forms and ways of racial discrimination, and discrimination, period.
Growing up on a tiny Cherokee Reservation, I was called a myriad of things by the "White" kids in school. I was called "Half breed, Flat Nose(Even tho it isnt flat..lol) and the biggie, "Prairie Nigger"
Now, I was taught to hold my temper and tolerance level, but once in a great while if my little sis (Who had Down's Syndrome) got picked on or was mistreated, then people got to see my bad side.
I am pretty tolerant now in my old age, but predijudice and ignorance tests my patience level greatly.
I know we are all guilty of using a 'slang' terminology here and there, but hopefully it isnt used in a malicious manner. I know in my Lifestyle, being called a Slut is a badge of Honor, but call me that on the street, ya might wind up kissing the pavement. It would actually depend on my mood, tho. I might just reply "Thank you!" lol

I guess what people have to do nowdays is just be careful in your terminology, and try to not rile a few feathers. :}
Cat.