Human Nature-Generally

[parkwings]

Generally when two people get together intimately(especially if one is a woman) don't y'all think that one or both parties would like the relationship to continue,progress, assuming the first few encounters were positive?

I think it's rare for people to plan for a relationship to end, or to be 'open' if it seems to be going well initially.

Therefore, if a woman starts dating a bisexual man, she is almost gauranteed emotional turmoil, if the man cannot honestly commit to stop seeing men.

And from the bisexual man's point of view, would he be comfortable being monogamous with this one woman, and NO men indefinitely?

I think Long Duck Dong had some good points in his post "bisexuality or bullshit" and his post on "Celibacy". Asking someone to be accepting of bisexuality, when you are not willing to commit to them only, is a form of emotional abuse, in most cases. That's my opinion. ;)

[DiamondDog]

Speaking from my own viewpoint and experiences while I do have sexual attraction towards women I don't have relationships with them since I don't want to, and I'm more into dating and having relationships with men since romantically I get a lot more out of men than women.

I can fall in love with women but I find that most move too fast and want too deep of a relationship when you're just having sex together or dating/getting to know each other as friends.

If I were in a relationship with a woman I would have to have an open relationship and keep it open forever (or as long as we had a relationship together) or else I'd cheat or just flat out leave her out of nowhere for a serious romantic relationship with a male lover.

Also if I were in a long term relationship with a woman there would be a period probably as long as half a year where I simply wouldn't want sex with a woman at all, I wouldn't want to see a woman naked either as it would disgust me. Even if my wife/girlfriend threw herself at me I'd be disgusted and I wouldn't be able to get it up or have sex at all, and I'd probably either become celibate or just cheat with men/have male lovers.

I'm fine with being in a closed/exclusive/monogamous romantic relationship with a man, and actually that's what I'd prefer.

[Sarasvati]

Yet why make sexuality the testing ground of commitment/fidelity and the symbol of it? Can people seriously answer this question?

Many of those who rail against "cheating" seem to me to be carrying out a certain self deceipt.

People shift their views on morality to suit their actions. Sometimes it's necessary to stand up and accept you don't want to follow Jesus in everything, sometimes you want a bit of Shiva and Shakti too.

[Skater Boy]

Many of those who rail against "cheating" seem to me to be carrying out a certain self deceipt.

People shift their views on morality to suit their actions. Sometimes it's necessary to stand up and accept you don't want to follow Jesus in everything, sometimes you want a bit of Shiva and Shakti too.

Is this related to "Moralism" or something? To me its not really about self-deceit... its about respect for your partner, and being a decent person. Sure, I could go cheating left right and centre, but I choose not to. Why? Because I usually CARE about the person I am dating. But ofcourse, if the person you're dating isn't worth that respect, then cheating may be an option.

:2cents:

There's a certain amount of sacrifice involved in a monogamous relationship. You either play by the rules, or the relationship hits the rocks. If you're lucky enough to have a partner willing to have an open-relationship then thats the other option. But if not, you have to decide just how important that person is to you.

[Annika L]

Jesus was not a monogamous married man.

People seem to see binaries in the strangest places! It's not like the two choices are (a) monogamy or (b) a fully open relationship.

There are all kinds of arrangements. Some that occur off the top of my head include polyfidelity (sexual open-ness within a group who commit to keeping all sexual contact within that group), arrangements where you can have 3-somes as long as they include your partner, and arrangements where you can each have sex with others as long as you BOTH agree on who and/or when.

There are as many possibilities as there are people who are willing to talk with one another about what they want and what they can accept in one another.

[parkwings]

Annika, you ideas sound good.....on paper.

If you ask your current partner to add a third to your relationship, how do you think she'll feel, really? Put the shoe on the other foot and think, what if she wanted another woman, man, ts, etc? Would you be happy to hear that?

Do you think it would be actually do-able to create a poly-fidelity group that you could trust? Maybe, but it's be HUGE emotional work I suspect.

Do you think entering into any of said agreements would add to your life? Or would they add stress and heartache? Maybe not for you, but for your partner?

What about the new 3rd, are they cheating on thier partner? Do they have std's? HIV? What about getting pregnant, this is a man(i heard they contain spermy's) then when it ends, more horsesh*t....isn't it pandora's box, in most cases?

I have'nt heard of a lot of succesfull poly relationships that last very long, even on this website.

A gay friend of mine told me that of all the other gay couples he's known over the years that agreed to 'open' relationships or adding a 3rd, whatever u call it, guess how many of them are still together today??

Have u guessed yet?....0 of them are still together. He and his partner are happily still together, but thiers is a closed relationship.

reality is very different than paper

[Annika L]

Annika, you ideas sound good.....on paper.

If you ask your current partner to add a third to your relationship, how do you think she'll feel, really? Put the shoe on the other foot and think, what if she wanted another woman, man, ts, etc? Would you be happy to hear that?

Do you think it would be actually do-able to create a poly-fidelity group that you could trust? Maybe, but it's be HUGE emotional work I suspect.

Do you think entering into any of said agreements would add to your life? Or would they add stress and heartache? Maybe not for you, but for your partner?

What about the new 3rd, are they cheating on thier partner? Do they have std's? HIV? What about getting pregnant, this is a man(i heard they contain spermy's) then when it ends, more horsesh*t....isn't it pandora's box, in most cases?

I have'nt heard of a lot of succesfull poly relationships that last very long, even on this website.

A gay friend of mine told me that of all the other gay couples he's known over the years that agreed to 'open' relationships or adding a 3rd, whatever u call it, guess how many of them are still together today??

Have u guessed yet?....0 of them are still together. He and his partner are happily still together, but thiers is a closed relationship.

reality is very different than paper


WHEN I have spoken with my partner about these issues, it has led to wonderful discussions about just the trust and safety issues that you mention. These are necessary prerequisites to establishing any arrangement. She has needs and interests too, and we are keeping one another informed.

Your quote about it being "HUGE emotional work" to create an alternate arrangement makes me smile. Do you risk hurting your partner because you want to avoid work? ANY good relationship requires HUGE emotional work...this is no different.

And yes, I suspect entering into such a relationship WOULD add stress and heartache for both my partner and me...but it would also have the potential to add great joy and expand both of our hearts and lives. And I would not enter into any arrangement that works only for me, but not for her.

Your questions about the new third are the questions you ALWAYS have to answer when you enter into a relationship with *anyone*. What I am advocating is that you *not* be the person your partner needs to worry about cheating, being HIV positive, etc.

Finally every relationship is a Pandora's box of possible hurt, heartache, physical danger, etc.

Having said all of this, I am also fully aware that many/most polyamorous and polyfidelitous (hmmm? is that right?) relationships don't work out. But if you explore your sexuality without your partner's consent, your relationship is in a comparable amount of danger.

I am only speaking out against the assumption that the number of possibilities is small (be monogamous or be completely open). There are other things to try...and you are less likely to hurt the one you love by talking to them about what you want than you are by taking matters into your own hands behind their back. But if you embark on such a path...do be prepared for hard work.

[allbimyself]

Do you risk hurting your partner because you want to avoid work? ANY good relationship requires HUGE emotional work...this is no different.
Bravo, Annika! Well said!

[parkwings]

And I would not enter into any arrangement that works only for me, but not for her.
She has needs and interests too, and we are keeping one another informed.




Which one of you initially broached the topic of possibly adding a 3rd or exploring? If it was you that initiated it, what was her reaction? Was she pleased right away?

If she was'nt, then are'nt you now really just negotiating to get permission to play outside the original relationship, even if it is with her knowledge and/or participation?

I guess my point is that there is usually one instigator within the couple.

After much communication, discussion, understanding, sure the other party may relent and agree, but if the instigator never brought the topic up in the first place, this so called 'mutually satisfying' experience would've never even been thought of.

Bottom line: Is the instigator being selfish and dragging the partner along... or not? :2cents:

[HighEnergy]

Being the straight woman w/ a former partner who was bi, I think I was more accepting of his sexuality than he was. When his former partner was supposed to come to town, I encouraged him to have "quality" time with him. When he would be in one of his "moods", I encouraged him to find a friend. I told him that I would be ok with that as long as he was open and honest with me and not sneaking around. He never took me up on it, saying those days were over for him, although he still had the attraction and the desire from time to time. I guess the bottom line was discussing it openly and honestly. I wouldn't have been happy to find him sneaking around, or with another woman, but I didn't expect him to not honor both sides of his sexuality.

[Lorcan]

I think it's rare for people to plan for a relationship to end, or to be 'open' if it seems to be going well initially.

That's two different things. To plan for it to end...NO. But to be 'open'... yes. We were 'open' from the beginning. We met and fell in love knowing we were that way. We've been together 13 years.

Now what "openness" means has changed thruout the years. If something is not working you've got to change the rules. So far it seems to be difficult to get a third to stick around for any length of time, but we're still together.

But this was a query about general human nature, wasn't it? I think i'm in the wrong place; i'll shut up now. :rolleyes:

[DiamondDog]

Having said all of this, I am also fully aware that many/most polyamorous and polyfidelitous (hmmm? is that right?) relationships don't work out. But if you explore your sexuality without your partner's consent, your relationship is in a comparable amount of danger.

I am only speaking out against the assumption that the number of possibilities is small (be monogamous or be completely open). There are other things to try...and you are less likely to hurt the one you love by talking to them about what you want than you are by taking matters into your own hands behind their back. But if you embark on such a path...do be prepared for hard work.

yeah anyone who thinks that an open relationship is somehow easier than, or just as easy as a closed/exclusive relationship is sadly mistaken.

I know people who've had open relationships with their spouse that have lasted a decade or more but they had very strict rules/set up boundaries that simply aren't crossed/broken at all (such as no falling in love with anyone else at all.) and they keep the relationship open in that it's predominantly monogamous and they only have sex with others maybe a few times a year, if that, and they obviously don't fall in love with other people at all, since they have each other.

But I don't know of ANYONE of any gender/orientation who has been in a 3 way open relationship where it lasted for a decade or more.

[the mage]

Planned one night stand do happen.
Lots of people, both sexes, do it.

I'd agree that the vast majority want more.
I for one do want more. I dislike the annon thing.

I also know that the first time you play with someone, assuming its at all good, is never the best sex.

My relationship is "open" and as mentioned there are strict rules.
I do not break them. We have been more than 9 years now and I love and lust for her constantly for the very reason that I have no secrets from her.

Adding a full time 3rd in a household is very hard indeed. I know no one who has kept it going for more that a couple of years, even in the strictly regimented arena of D/s S/m play it seldom lasts.

[Annika L]

Which one of you initially broached the topic of possibly adding a 3rd or exploring? If it was you that initiated it, what was her reaction? Was she pleased right away?

If she was'nt, then are'nt you now really just negotiating to get permission to play outside the original relationship, even if it is with her knowledge and/or participation?

I guess my point is that there is usually one instigator within the couple.

After much communication, discussion, understanding, sure the other party may relent and agree, but if the instigator never brought the topic up in the first place, this so called 'mutually satisfying' experience would've never even been thought of.

Bottom line: Is the instigator being selfish and dragging the partner along... or not? :2cents:

It sounds to me like you are assuming that everyone approaches relationships the way you do.

I actually don't remember anymore which of us mentioned it first...this has been and remains an organic process for us (as most processes are for us). It doesn't seem to be an "agenda" that either of us is pressing hard to turn into a reality at the expense of the other. We both identify as bi, and we've never had conflict over the idea...it doesn't bother either of us that we're both also attracted to men...it would only bother us if either decided to pursue that interest unilaterally, or in a way that made the other uncomfortable.

And no, neither of us has any desire whatsoever to "play" outside the relationship. For better or worse, we both require close emotional connections for physical intimacy...for what it's worth, personally, I think this continues to work in our favor.

I don't feel that expressing your needs and desires and fantasies to your partner is ever selfish -- but "dragging" or pressuring another person into participation or approval certainly IS selfish (as is fooling around behind their back).

So in answer to your question about whether it is the case that there is always one instigator, I would say that if one person instigates, then there is one instigator. But in our case, there was no "instigation"...just sharing of thoughts and feelings that has led to a kind of evolution. And just like evolution...I have no idea what the ultimate outcome will be, if there is such a thing. This, however, highlights the importance of talking early and often: if you wait until you are absolutely desperate, then you are likely to make bad choices.

(All of this being said, I must admit that from conversations I've had with others, it would seem that not acting proactively, delaying a potentially uncomfortable conversation until a point of desperation, lying, cheating, etc. all seem to be part of "Human Nature-Generally" to a much greater extent than the approach my partner and I tend to follow. I do find this sad and distressing, but such is life.)

[parkwings]

And no, neither of us has any desire whatsoever to "play" outside the relationship. For better or worse, we both require close emotional connections for physical intimacy...for what it's worth, personally, I think this continues to work in our favor.


Well Annika, if this is the case, It seems that you and your partner are confining your other desires to the realm of fantasy, which would seem a lot simpler than reality. :)

[Annika L]

I don't see the connection you are making. I never said that we wouldn't end up moving beyond our current dyad...just that at present, we are not actively seeking another person, but rather figuring out how we feel.

I was not actively seeking another person when I met my partner, but that certainly materialized into something very real!

[parkwings]

And no, neither of us has any desire whatsoever to "play" outside the relationship.

I never said that we wouldn't end up moving beyond our current dyad...just that at present, we are not actively seeking another person, but rather figuring out how we feel.


seems a bit contradictory to me, but maybe it's just me, no offense intended. Seems muddy to me..are you open to others joining you and your partner or not.(maybe not now, but later)

[Annika L]

seems a bit contradictory to me, but maybe it's just me, no offense intended. Seems muddy to me..are you open to others joining you and your partner or not.(maybe not now, but later)

Oh parky, your skepticism is getting tiring. I do not require you to understand my relationship with my partner. I only put forth that people have relationships that are vastly different from yours...and that mine, after 20 years, is still very solid.

Are we open to "others joining us"? Oh gods, no! Are we open to expanding our circle of intimacy to include one or more others? Could be. Are we looking for such a person? No. Might we stumble across one? Sure. Under what circumstances could this happen, and what would it take? Mind your own business, lol.

[parkwings]

Annika, I know my opinion does'nt mean anything to you, but you proved a point to me...that you really can't give a clear answer, and your own statements contradict themselves.

Read them yourself and see.

And no, neither of us has any desire whatsoever to "play" outside the relationship.

Then you say this:

Are we open to expanding our circle of intimacy to include one or more others? Could be.


I don't care what you do, and I'm sure you don't care what I do, but if you think your answers are clear, you're mistaken.

Let me answer my question to you, for you: it seems you both are open to others joining your relationship , IF it fits....see how easy that was...it's called being forthright!