Q: The Riddle of Gender

[MarieDelta]

Here's a question for you all, something I've been puzzling over in my transition.

Would you define a TS woman , a TS man, an Intersexed person, A Man and a Woman as different sexes? Different genders?

Furthermore how do you define "Man" and "Woman"?


Please don't mistake me I'm not trying to say that any one way is right I'm just looking for different opinions.

[Skater Boy]

Would you define a TS woman , a TS man, an Intersexed person, A Man and a Woman as different sexes? Different genders?

Furthermore how do you define "Man" and "Woman"?

Not sure about the TS thing. But "man" and "woman" are often defined physiologically (ie. posessing genitalia associated with one sex). But this is just a literal explanation of one's outward physical make-up.

However, there is also the psychological aspect. One can identify with a male or female persona. This method is used less, but IMO it has just as much relevance.

I would say that an inter-sexed person might have a catagory of their own physiologically. Although psychologically, they may identify with one gender in particular.

To me a person is whichever gender they identify themselves with (at least on some level)... so a MTF would essentially be a F, even if though they may posses male genetalia. But I guess the physiological features may be used by others.

It is/was common, amongst some Gay men to call eachother "she". I'm not sure if this use relates to the psychological persona of certain gay men. But I thought was interesting, since some gay men may play feminine roles.

Anyway, I'm no expert... :2cents:

[Lisa (va)]

Here's a question for you all, something I've been puzzling over in my transition.

Would you define a TS woman , a TS man, an Intersexed person, A Man and a Woman as different sexes? Different genders?

Furthermore how do you define "Man" and "Woman"?


Please don't mistake me I'm not trying to say that any one way is right I'm just looking for different opinions.

There is always the clinical definitions to rely upon. But does it really matter what the body possesses (or not). I would say I would refer to them as they wish to be referred to;or if they had no preference as fellow human beings.

Lisa

hugs n kisses

[MarieDelta]

this from Arlene Ishtar Lev (http://www.choicesconsulting.com/areas/transgender/)


Sex: Sex is the physiological makeup of a human being, referred to as their biological or natal sex. Sex is usually thought of in a bipolar way, dividing the world into males and females. In reality, sex is a complex relationship of genetic, hormonal, morphological, biochemical and anatomical determinates that impact the physiology of the body and the sexual differentiation of the brain. Although everyone is assigned a sex at birth, approximately 2% of the population are intersex and do not easily fit into a dimorphic division of two sexes that are "opposite."

Gender: Gender is a social construct that divides people into "natural" categories of men and women that are thought to derive from their physiological male and female bodies. Gender attributes vary from culture to culture, and are arbitrarily imposed, denying individuality. Most people's gender identity is the same as their sex but people who exhibit opposite gender roles are often labeled as deviant. A person's self concept of their gender (regardless of their biological sex) is called their gender identity.

Agree or disagree?

[Skater Boy]

this from Arlene Ishtar Lev (http://www.choicesconsulting.com/areas/transgender/)

Agree or disagree?

I would agree. :2cents:

[Herbwoman39]

It is my personal opinion that gender is more psychological than physical. We have all seen masculine females and feminine males, not just in manner but in physiological structure. I believe that our mental perception of our own gender identity makes far more of an impact in our lives than what genatalia our bodies have.

I do agree with the above definitions of sex and gender but there is always more than what appears on the surface.

[Annika L]

Marie, I believe that both sex and gender are spectrums, rather than binary. (Frankly, I don't believe that anything in this world is binary.)

For both sex and gender, "male" and "female" define two extremes...and at least for gender, nobody (or almost nobody) attains them (well, for gender they are so poorly defined to begin with that I suppose nobody *could* attain them). So everybody basically falls somewhere on the spectrum for both.

Further, most people fall closer to the same extreme for both sex and gender(transsexuals being the exception, who fall closer to one extreme for sex, and closer to the other extreme for gender).

Intersexed people fall somewhere in the middle of the sex spectrum. Common wisdom (hah!) says that most of us fall close to an extreme on the sex spectrum, but realistically, we probably all fall closer to the middle than we suspect (and how would we know, since we all tend to assume we're basically built like everybody else?).

It would appear that all of us are all over the gender spectrum (more evidence in my mind that we may be more spread out along the sex spectrum than we think).

We could certainly put names to, say, the centers of these spectra, and say they denote a 3rd sex or 3rd gender, but I don't see the point, since there would still be many other sexes and genders along these spectra.

So rather than looking to define other sexes and other genders, I simply try to find myself on both spectra. For me that keeps life simple: it's not a matter of 2 sexes, or 3, or 4...just one spectrum. Same for gender. (Although for many many people, this makes their heads spin, LOL).

Ok, enough babbling from me. I am not an expert either...I just think too much, according to everyone who knows me, including myself.

But I am curious to hear if any of this makes sense to others.

[Danielle B]

I'm oversimplifying this, but I believe that sex is between the legs, and gender is between the ears. And no, there are no binaries as far as I'm concerned- there are lots of places on the spectrum on which to rest for both sex and gender :)

[coyotedude]

For me, Marie, this is a real challenging question - thank you for asking it.

I don't know whether I agree or disagree with the quote; I do have an unsettled feeling that it may be more accurate than not, however. I do find this quote challenging some deep-seated assumptions within myself about gender. (That's a good thing.)

So I think, Marie, that you in your journey are probably better equipped to discover answers than me stuck in my little box!

Peace

[MarieDelta]

Thanks everyone for responding.

IMHO: Gender is (mostly) a social construct, we as people have beliefs - "Men" are such and such, women are like "this". My gender differs from my physical sex (My gender is Femme(Woman) and My sex is male.) This doesn't make my life easy in this binary culture of ours, but I do OK.

Most people don't stop to think about how sex and gender are interrelated. It simply is the way it is. It's only when there is a conflict that you start to think about it.

The conflict between my gender and my sex started when I was about five years old. However I had an older brother and was raised in a very conservatively catholic home. There was no stepping outside the bounds of the boy box for me, unless it was done in secret. I didn't even realize that there was such a thing as 'transgender' until I was 30 yo. Even though I had been crossdressing in private since I was 5. I was caught by my mother once, she told me to go see the priest about my "problem" - I went to the priest but never told him about my gender identity (and after all these years later I find that he was one of those pedophile priest that you hear about.)

Shortly after I had my realization I had another one - I was in fact attracted to men and women. I had always know that I was attracted to both but never verbalized it to anyone (even myself). It's funny how well you can compartmentalize these things.

Anyway that pretty much sums up my story.

I do see transgender folks as a seperate gender, and that isn't a bad thing we are all unique in our own way. In my little universe there are perhaps five genders (with shading between them).

Thanks again for your responses guys, always interesting to hear other peoples views.

:color:

[Annika L]

Your belief that gender is entirely socially constructed raises an interesting question, Marie. Bear with me and I'll try to articulate it.

If gender is entirely socially constructed, and you are transgendered because your gender does not match your sex, then you are transgendered because your sex does not match a socially constructed set of conventions. This would seem to indicate (to me, anyway) that if society had evolved differently...in the "right" way for you...you would not be transgendered (and presumably would not require the step of gender transition).

Does that seem correct? Or am I missing something? (Is the argument even clear, or am I babbling, lol?)

[MarieDelta]

Your belief that gender is entirely socially constructed raises an interesting question, Marie. Bear with me and I'll try to articulate it.


I wouldn't say entirely. (Re: the Davide Reimer case if anyone is familar with that?) I would say that there is a sizable component that is socially constructed.







If gender is entirely socially constructed, and you are transgendered because your gender does not match your sex, then you are transgendered because your sex does not match a socially constructed set of conventions. This would seem to indicate (to me, anyway) that if society had evolved differently...in the "right" way for you...you would not be transgendered (and presumably would not require the step of gender transition).


Granted all those things -maybe I wouldn't need to transition.

But I'm not sure that any of those things would be able to "fix" someone late in the game. And I'm not sure exactly what causes someone's sex and gender to mismatch. Some theories are that prenatal homones affect the foetus in utero, is it true? not sure. There are a variety of thoeries about gender.





Does that seem correct? Or am I missing something? (Is the argument even clear, or am I babbling, lol?)

You do quite well dear, this isn't exactly easy stuff to learn.

It's all a mystery, that's why I asked for peoples opinions.

Take care,

M

[Sarasvati]

To Annika L,

I am more mystified in this riddle having read some of your comments.

May I start by asking you to clarify what exactly you mean by gender and what exactly you mean by sex and what, in your view, the differences are?

[Annika L]

Actually Sarasvati, yes, I do think we may all be conflating two ideas: gender and gender identity.

(In everything credible I've ever encountered, sex is determined by what's between your legs...which, as evidenced by intersexed persons, is less concrete than people used to like to think...and gender is even less well-defined.)

My sister teaches gender communication, and backs Marie up on the notion that gender is socially constructed: what society expects from men and women in terms of behavior, dress, etc. Given this, I am not even certain that it is technically correct to say that we HAVE a gender...they just are. And they are not male and female, but rather masculine and feminine.

Gender identity, on the other hand, seems to be one's sense of their sex and/or how well they fit society's gender expectations. It's the "and/or" there that confuses me, since sex and society's expectations are clearly two different things.

So another question for Marie: as a transwoman, do you feel that you have a male body, but are *feminine* (according to today's societal norms) or that you have a male body, but a sense that you are actually somehow *female*?

From what I've read, it would seem that what people call "gender dysphoria" (the sense of being in the wrong body) would more accurately be called "sex dysphoria". Any help?

[Danielle B]

Actually Sarasvati, yes, I do think we may all be conflating two ideas: gender and gender identity.

(In everything credible I've ever encountered, sex is determined by what's between your legs...which, as evidenced by intersexed persons, is less concrete than people used to like to think...and gender is even less well-defined.)

My sister teaches gender communication, and backs Marie up on the notion that gender is socially constructed: what society expects from men and women in terms of behavior, dress, etc. Given this, I am not even certain that it is technically correct to say that we HAVE a gender...they just are. And they are not male and female, but rather masculine and feminine.

Gender identity, on the other hand, seems to be one's sense of their sex and/or how well they fit society's gender expectations. It's the "and/or" there that confuses me, since sex and society's expectations are clearly two different things.

So another question for Marie: as a transwoman, do you feel that you have a male body, but are *feminine* (according to today's societal norms) or that you have a male body, but a sense that you are actually somehow *female*?

From what I've read, it would seem that what people call "gender dysphoria" (the sense of being in the wrong body) would more accurately be called "sex dysphoria". Any help?

Gender is a definitely a social construct- there have been societies where our gender roles are basically inverted- the women are the "dominant" gender and have all the rights and privileges that men do in our culture, and men took on feminine roles.

I won't answer for Marie, but I'll throw my :2cents: in. I don't consider myself dysphoric in any sense, because I feel that term implies that something is wrong with me. Nothing is wrong with me- it's society that's dysphoric because of its inability and unwillingness to tolerate anything outside of strictly defined norms. I simply have a challenge- I was given a male body and a female brain, and I was given the challenge of making them match in a way that is comfortable for me for a reason (presumably because I can handle it and it will make me grow as a person?). I hope that answers your question :)

[Danielle B]

Thanks everyone for responding.

IMHO: Gender is (mostly) a social construct, we as people have beliefs - "Men" are such and such, women are like "this". My gender differs from my physical sex (My gender is Femme(Woman) and My sex is male.) This doesn't make my life easy in this binary culture of ours, but I do OK.

Most people don't stop to think about how sex and gender are interrelated. It simply is the way it is. It's only when there is a conflict that you start to think about it.

The conflict between my gender and my sex started when I was about five years old. However I had an older brother and was raised in a very conservatively catholic home. There was no stepping outside the bounds of the boy box for me, unless it was done in secret. I didn't even realize that there was such a thing as 'transgender' until I was 30 yo. Even though I had been crossdressing in private since I was 5. I was caught by my mother once, she told me to go see the priest about my "problem" - I went to the priest but never told him about my gender identity (and after all these years later I find that he was one of those pedophile priest that you hear about.)

Shortly after I had my realization I had another one - I was in fact attracted to men and women. I had always know that I was attracted to both but never verbalized it to anyone (even myself). It's funny how well you can compartmentalize these things.

Anyway that pretty much sums up my story.

I do see transgender folks as a seperate gender, and that isn't a bad thing we are all unique in our own way. In my little universe there are perhaps five genders (with shading between them).

Thanks again for your responses guys, always interesting to hear other peoples views.

:color:

I could have written most of this post myself, too. I knew there was a mismatch of sorts from when I was about 6 or 7, but couldn't name what that mismatch (or didn't have the courage to name it) until just fairly recently. And it is amazing how easy it was to compartmentalize my sexual orientation, too- for that matter, to compartmentalize just about everything that didn't fit into my obsession of ignoring my TG issues.

You ask great questions, Marie, and the feedback from everyone is tremendous :)

[MarieDelta]

So another question for Marie: as a transwoman, do you feel that you have a male body, but are *feminine* (according to today's societal norms) or that you have a male body, but a sense that you are actually somehow *female*?

From what I've read, it would seem that what people call "gender dysphoria" (the sense of being in the wrong body) would more accurately be called "sex dysphoria". Any help?

That is a really good question. I'm still dealing with alot of these issues in my day to day life.

At the moment I would say that dysphoria breaks itself ito two categories.

Social- Where you would be fine as long as society accepts your gender as you wish.

Physical- where you must make your body match your minds conception.

Some people fit into one category and some in both. Personally I've had tinges of both, it canj be really disturbing to me to look down and see "it" sometimes. maye when I fully transition this won't be as bad, right now I can't say.

Does that answer your question?

[transcendMental]

Wow, that IS an interesting way to put it!

I think that if I never had contact with another human being or with society again, I would still feel that I should be female. My body simply does not feel right, and never has.

So in answer to Annika's question, no matter how society evolved, I feel I would still be a transsexual, and still need to transition. Does that mean that transsexualism should not be defined as a conflict between sex and gender, but rather as a conflict between internal and external sense of sex?

How do other transsexuals on the site feel about this? Are my feelings here unique?

[MarieDelta]

I think that if I never had contact with another human being or with society again, I would still feel that I should be female. My body simply does not feel right, and never has.


Why would you want to transition if there are no other people around?

What would give "man" and "woman" meaning?

[transcendMental]

Marie,

Being a man or woman is more than just the social aspect of it. As I said:


My body simply does not feel right, and never has.



I should have been born in a female body, and developed as a woman, physically as well as socially. My emotions are currently guided/affected by the wrong hormones, I have bits that should not be there, and I am lacking other bits that should be. It took me years to figure out just how much and in how many ways this impacts me, but now that I am there, I must say that until this is corrected, I will feel wrong.

If I would have to live indefinitely in solitary confinement (no contact with society or other people), I think it would be even more important that I felt ok with who and what I was. It would make attempting to escape such a confinement feel worthwhile (lacking transition, I might be happier remaining in solitary than escaping).

It sounds like this is not a shared experience/feeling. But does this answer your question?

[MarieDelta]

I have often wondered how I would feel in the absence of a society.

I'm not sure how I would feel, if you know what I mean?

Right now, I just want to be me. But what does that mean anyway?

I've been a year on hormones, and I do feel much better, though and this is the real kicker, no one can tell me why the hormones make me feel better than before.

So, I'm not saying yes or no, I'm saying I don't understand.

Yes, I have felt this way for a long time.

Yes, I do feel better when treated as a woman.

but, why?

[transcendMental]

My understanding is that we (M2F transsexuals) have brains that are structurally and chemically similar to womens' brains rather than to mens' brains. I have read some studies that have clearly shown this difference, although there is still some debate/controversy in the medical community, due to small sample sizes.

But if we do effectively have womens' brains, then it makes perfect sense to me that they would respond better to female hormones than to male hormones. This could also explain why we feel better being treated as women, except that there is more of a behavioral component involved there as well. But both behavior and emotions ultimately spring from chemistry and biology, so if your brain is like a woman's brain, then especially as your chemistry comes to more closely follow a woman's chemistry, I can believe that being treated as a woman feels more and more right.

[wolfcamp]

I have always been a little confused about this topic. When I was a young boy, my friends and I talked about hermaphrodites. I don't think that term is used any more, and maybe the concept is only a myth anyway. A hermaphrodite, in our minds, had sex organs of both a man and a woman; in other words, a penis and a hole. We gossiped about certain celebrities who were rumored to be hermes. I have read about parents who gave their babies surgery to "correct" this problem, and then the child was later angry that they didn't have the opportunity to choose their own gender for themselves, so maybe the myth is true after all.

Now I mostly hear the term transexual, which I understand means a person who starts out as one sex or gender but is trying to transition, either psychologically and/or physically to the other. I am getting the idea that this is a catch all term for a number of gender based situations.

In the above posts I saw the term intersexed. Is that the PC term now for hermaphrodite, a person who has physical attributes of both sexes, or does it mean something entirely different? In a previous thread someone used the term shemale and drew flames from every direction. I probably would have made the same mistake because I never associated that term with the porn industry until I read that thread. It was a label that fit a slot in my way of thinking, and now that slot has no label. Maybe I should get rid of the slot too, but that doesn't get rid of the questions or my observations about the situation.

There are so many variations to this theme, it's hard to have a label for each one. The labels mean different things to different people. It's all very confusing. When I was young I had a recurring dream about making love to a beautiful woman, but as she took off her clothes I found that she had a cock and balls. This dream scared me because I thought I wasn't normal. As I got older I realized that there is no normal, and the dream eventually went away.

WC

[MarieDelta]

Oh !

Check this out! The Fa’afafine of Samoa -

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/video/index.html?bcpid=192889067&bctid=1003415012&fs=www9.nationalgeographic.com

It's their third gender. Worth watching :)

I don't agree that third gender people are beter than anyone btw...

Just don't want to anyone to get the wrong idea.

[MarieDelta]

I have always been a little confused about this topic. When I was a young boy, my friends and I talked about hermaphrodites. I don't think that term is used any more, and maybe the concept is only a myth anyway. A hermaphrodite, in our minds, had sex organs of both a man and a woman; in other words, a penis and a hole. We gossiped about certain celebrities who were rumored to be hermes. I have read about parents who gave their babies surgery to "correct" this problem, and then the child was later angry that they didn't have the opportunity to choose their own gender for themselves, so maybe the myth is true after all.

Now I mostly hear the term transexual, which I understand means a person who starts out as one sex or gender but is trying to transition, either psychologically and/or physically to the other. I am getting the idea that this is a catch all term for a number of gender based situations.

In the above posts I saw the term intersexed. Is that the PC term now for hermaphrodite, a person who has physical attributes of both sexes, or does it mean something entirely different? In a previous thread someone used the term shemale and drew flames from every direction. I probably would have made the same mistake because I never associated that term with the porn industry until I read that thread. It was a label that fit a slot in my way of thinking, and now that slot has no label. Maybe I should get rid of the slot too, but that doesn't get rid of the questions or my observations about the situation.

There are so many variations to this theme, it's hard to have a label for each one. The labels mean different things to different people. It's all very confusing. When I was young I had a recurring dream about making love to a beautiful woman, but as she took off her clothes I found that she had a cock and balls. This dream scared me because I thought I wasn't normal. As I got older I realized that there is no normal, and the dream eventually went away.

WC

There are traswomen who do Identify with shemale, and who would rather keep their natal genitalia.

Hermaphrodite changed to intersex because hermaphrodite imples fully formed genitals of both male and female. Not all intersexed are born this way, in some the sex cannot easily be determined at birth.

So no, it isn't about being politically correct, its about being correct.

Please don't take this as a flame, just gentle(I hope ) instruction.


m

[wolfcamp]

Please don't take this as a flame, just gentle(I hope ) instruction.


m

No offense taken. It's funny that as I read through these posts, I find the old Kinks song Lola going through my head.

[MarieDelta]

"Dude Looks Like a Lady" - Aerosmith?

[transcendMental]

I have always been a little confused about this topic. When I was a young boy, my friends and I talked about hermaphrodites. I don't think that term is used any more, and maybe the concept is only a myth anyway. A hermaphrodite, in our minds, had sex organs of both a man and a woman; in other words, a penis and a hole. We gossiped about certain celebrities who were rumored to be hermes. I have read about parents who gave their babies surgery to "correct" this problem, and then the child was later angry that they didn't have the opportunity to choose their own gender for themselves, so maybe the myth is true after all.

Now I mostly hear the term transexual, which I understand means a person who starts out as one sex or gender but is trying to transition, either psychologically and/or physically to the other. I am getting the idea that this is a catch all term for a number of gender based situations.

In the above posts I saw the term intersexed. Is that the PC term now for hermaphrodite, a person who has physical attributes of both sexes, or does it mean something entirely different? In a previous thread someone used the term shemale and drew flames from every direction. I probably would have made the same mistake because I never associated that term with the porn industry until I read that thread. It was a label that fit a slot in my way of thinking, and now that slot has no label. Maybe I should get rid of the slot too, but that doesn't get rid of the questions or my observations about the situation.

There are so many variations to this theme, it's hard to have a label for each one. The labels mean different things to different people. It's all very confusing. When I was young I had a recurring dream about making love to a beautiful woman, but as she took off her clothes I found that she had a cock and balls. This dream scared me because I thought I wasn't normal. As I got older I realized that there is no normal, and the dream eventually went away.
WC

So many questions here! Here is my go at answering them. Please keep in mind that I am not an expert -- I have just been doing a lot of reading on the subject. (Hopefully, I can avoid rousing anybody's anger!)

(1) As Marie says, hermaphrodites are intersexed, but not all intersexed people are hermaphrodites. In the broadest sense, a person is considered intersexed if there is any "abnormality" or ambiguity regarding their genitalia. For years, intersexed children have been operated on early in order to "correct" them, according to society's norms. This has resulted in many being "corrected" to a sex that is uncomfortable to them (especially as most were made female, since it is easier to build a neo-vagina than a functional penis).

(2) Transsexual generally refers to someone whose physical sex does not match their gender identity (e.g., a male who feels strongly and persistently like a woman). If their sense of disconnect with their body is strong enough, they frequently seek to transition socially to the gender they are most comfortable with. In the most extreme cases, they pursue sex reassignment surgery, so that their sex can match their new gender role as well, and so that their body feels completely congruous with their psyche.

(3) The "she-male" thing is tricky, and I can see why a discussion about this might have raised some tempers. Any male, transsexual or not, who takes feminizing hormones will grow breasts over time (some have better results than others). For some people this is actually a fetish (they really get off on the idea of having breasts) -- my sense is that these people are not generally transsexuals, but I'm sure that some transsexuals experience this as a fetish as well. *Some* of these people (again, my sense is that most of these are not really transsexuals, and identify as men) have as a goal becoming a man with breasts or a "chick with a dick", and want to actively identify with the notion of being a "she-male". What causes the heat is that any transitioning transsexual must go through this phase of having breasts and a penis before having surgery. Some slow down, run out of money, are scared of surgery, etc. (LOTS of reasons), or just plain realize that they feel enough better on hormones that they don't need the costly non-insurance-covered surgery, that they live in this state for many years. The last thing these transwomen want is to be associated with people with a sexual fetish, or with people whose bodies are in the same state as theirs, but who have chosen this path for more cosmetic reasons. It has taken years for transsexualism to be viewed as a medical condition rather than as a fetish or a psychological disorder, and being lumped together with self-identified "she-males" constitutes a huge social step backwards for us.

(4) A generic term for people with gender conflicts is genderqueer -- this encompasses cross-dressers, transsexuals, she-males, (I believe) intersexed persons, and several other categories.