Scooter Libby

[GreenEyedLady(GEL)]

:soapbox President Bush commuted Scooter Libby's 2 year prison sentence saying it was a bit harsh ? Since when does the President of the United States decide whether or not someone goes to prison ? He respects the Federal courts decision to convict, but wipes it away. Doesn't matter that the courts found one of his aides guilty. As far as Im concerned Bush is just as guilty of obstruction of justice and wish they'd freakin impeach his ass. What a disgrace. Total ludicris. :banghead:

[GreenEyedLady(GEL)]

Further More - that entire cabinet ( pres , vice pres ) has a total disreguard for the law, and the people of the united states of america !

[12voltman59]

According to the US Constitution--I don't know the exact place that does give him that power--is able to grant pardons for Federal crimes --the power is absolute and he has to give no reason--and it can be for any offense including and up to, Capital Murder----

I don't agree with Bush's pardon of Libby, but he was fully within his power to do so....

[absolutely_true]

:soapbox President Bush commuted Scooter Libby's 2 year prison sentence saying it was a bit harsh ?

Harsh?!?!? The original punishment for the type of crime he commited was death. He outed an active CIA agent during a time of war. And George W. Bush himself was the one who came up with that punishment in the first place!

Gawd, somebody please tell me why this man is still president?!?!?!?

[blew bi me]

GEL sounds like one of those pissed off Democrats that would push for impeachment if Bush forgot to shake his dick after taking a leak. The truth is that all presidents issues pardons, usually on the day they are leaving office. Take a look at all the criminals Clinton pardoned, a murderer among them. Its a privilege we, the people gave to them and unless we take it back, they have the right to do it. Further, if GEL or anyone else for that matter were to investigate Libby, he was not the person responsible for this action, just the one that was tried and found guilty. The person that released the info about the CIA agent was not tried but admitted during the Libby trial that he was responsible. This is not to say he isn't guilty of anything, just not the charge he was brought up on. Personally, I'm glad I don't have to know all the things done behind closed doors to keep us safe, regardless of which party is in office at the time. My support is for the government of the US and in all their infinite wisdom, regardless of whether it plays well in the liberal press or not. Keep the fucking Islam extremeist where they belong and off our soil. (Please note I said "extemeist" and not those sane Islamist that hate terror as much as the rest of us.)

[12voltman59]

Actually---Libby was not charged with having anything to do with the disclosure of the information--he was charged with perjury and obstruction of justice---and that is what he was also tried and convicted on.

As far as the situation with Libby--the fact of the matter is this----someone did--for whatever reason--disclose the identity of a CIA operative-Valerie Plame in this case and in the disclosure of Plame, right or wrong---the front organization she "worked for" got exposed and according to an interview that I saw with someone who worked at the same level as Plame in the CIA--that exposure made the use of that CIA front organization no longer possible and it in some cases, according to the man who was interviewed-----did lead to the deaths of some "foreign nationals" who the CIA worked with in some bad places at worst--- and at best--that front organization could no longer be used because it had been exposed....

It does get me--if Clinton had done something similar--he would have surely and rightly (dumb ass thing he got impeached for getting his weeny sucked) would have gotten impeached and sent to prison--as should any president who had this happen in his administration when the source of said leak comes from your administraton for purely political purposes------but no--not with this one---it just gets made out to be "no big deal"

FOX News went to great lengths to make Plame out to be not much more than a secretary--it is also kind of something that if she were just that--how in the hell did she send an ambasssador over to a possibly hostile country to find out if they had sold nuclear materials to Iraq???

According to that same former CIA spy that I saw the interview with--Plame was actually a very high level CIA "operative" --- she basically ran an entire overseas CIA operation in some very sensitive and crucial areas of the world--

But, it does seem the spin from the Bush Administration, and conservative media like FOX, Rush, et al--did win the day.

Just more proof--the more you say a lie--it can then become "truth"

[mike9753]

I understand that the President was within his power to commute Libby's sentence. However, for me, after all the inappropriate behavior at the Justice Department with the firing of Federal Prosecutors, with the Cheney's behavior in placing himself above the law in refusing to obey the law when it comes to secrets, etc. it is just another example of how this current administration thinks it can do anything and get away with it. I think Bush is so isolated from the world that he does not even understand the implications to the American people of his actions.

I travel a lot overseas and have many friends in Europe, the Middle East and in Asia. Bush is seen as a comical character, who has enormous power and is essentially a bully, who thinks he can do anything without dealing with the consequences. He is not respected, he is not seen as the Leader of the Free World. Many of my friends feel sorry for Americans who must put up with an incompetent President. Never has America's reputation been so low - and I think this rests on the door step of the Bush/Cheney White House.

When I traveled I used to feel proud to say I was an American. Now I have to be careful. I am still proud of my heritage, but I am not proud of the current leadership. I think it is dangerous to be too visible as an American businessman today. That is not all Bush's fault, but I believe he has enormously exacerbated a very bad situation.

- Mike :soapbox:

[chulainn2]

:soapbox President Bush commuted Scooter Libby's 2 year prison sentence saying it was a bit harsh ? Since when does the President of the United States decide whether or not someone goes to prison
Have you already forgotten Bill Clinton?
Let me refresh your memory,


WASHINGTON, D.C. - President Clinton today granted pardons to 59 people and three commutations of sentence. Attached is a list of those persons.
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/pardons6.htm

just to mention a s few of the offenses in which these people were convicted
conspiracy to commit bank fraud
recieving a stolen vehicle
possession of destructive device
conspiracy to contribute cocaine
forgery of savings bonds
rackarteering


There was no crime comitted by Libby. The libs just want to whip somebody and the screacher Hillary of all people should shut her trap! Remeber the missing files that suddenly popped up in the white house at the very last minute, remember white water, that woman is a crook. And having her screaching about above the law would be like having Ted Kennedy giving drivers ed courses.

[ghytifrdnr]

They're ALL crooks, and the comment below illustrates the mindset that makes it possible for them to get away with it.



Personally, I'm glad I don't have to know all the things done behind closed doors to keep us safe, regardless of which party is in office at the time. My support is for the government of the US and in all their infinite wisdom, regardless of whether it plays well in the liberal press or not.

To anticipate the response, let me repeat what I read in a different place.
"A patriot is a person who loves their land and people and will do whatever is necessary to protect them. A nationalist is a person who loves their government and will do whatever it tells him." :2cents:

[12voltman59]

I understand that the President was within his power to commute Libby's sentence. However, for me, after all the inappropriate behavior at the Justice Department with the firing of Federal Prosecutors, with the Cheney's behavior in placing himself above the law in refusing to obey the law when it comes to secrets, etc. it is just another example of how this current administration thinks it can do anything and get away with it. I think Bush is so isolated from the world that he does not even understand the implications to the American people of his actions.

I travel a lot overseas and have many friends in Europe, the Middle East and in Asia. Bush is seen as a comical character, who has enormous power and is essentially a bully, who thinks he can do anything without dealing with the consequences. He is not respected, he is not seen as the Leader of the Free World. Many of my friends feel sorry for Americans who must put up with an incompetent President. Never has America's reputation been so low - and I think this rests on the door step of the Bush/Cheney White House.

When I traveled I used to feel proud to say I was an American. Now I have to be careful. I am still proud of my heritage, but I am not proud of the current leadership. I think it is dangerous to be too visible as an American businessman today. That is not all Bush's fault, but I believe he has enormously exacerbated a very bad situation.

- Mike :soapbox:

I agree with ya Mike pretty much across the board--the thing with Bush--from my perspective--I think he knows exactly what he is doing and doesn;t give a rat's ass about the consequences of whatever he does--the thing that is important to him---he was able to use the powers of his office to enrich himself and his cronies--"crony captialism" as writer Joe Conason put it in his book about Bush: "Big Lies"

Bush got his and got it for his buddies and the rest of us-we got dry fucked with Uncle Sam's big cock without any lube--we can eat shit and die as far as he is concerned----

[BiDanielle]

:soapbox President Bush commuted Scooter Libby's 2 year prison sentence saying it was a bit harsh ? Since when does the President of the United States decide whether or not someone goes to prison ? He respects the Federal courts decision to convict, but wipes it away. Doesn't matter that the courts found one of his aides guilty. As far as Im concerned Bush is just as guilty of obstruction of justice and wish they'd freakin impeach his ass. What a disgrace. Total ludicris. :banghead:

GEL,

The answer to your question is: since September 17, 1789. :three:

[anne27]

[QUOTE=blew bi me]... My support is for the government of the US and in all their infinite wisdom...QUOTE]


Oh please, tell me when this current government ran by Dofus has had ANY wisdom, let alone 'infinate'. :rolleyes:

[Tommy2020]

Art Buchwald once said and I quote: "If you attack the establishment long enough and hard enough, they will make you a member of it.".

And another interesting quote is from P.J. O'Rourke and it goes: "The mystery of government is not how Washington works but how to stop it.".

Tommy2020

[Herbwoman39]

Democrats...Republicans...they're all the same. They're ALL out for whatever they can squeeze out of the rest of us. It's all about power. They have it and they'll do whatever they have to to keep it.

The democrats whined and wheedled and manipulated to get back into power and what are they doing with it? Abso-fucking-lutly ZILCH!

The republicans manipulated, browbeat and strong-armed their way into what they wanted with little to no regard tothe rest of us. That new medical bill for instance, is a wonderful example of bending over generations of people.

Personally I'd be thrilled to get rid of them all and start from scratch with some different form of government because this one sure as hell isn't working.

As a side note, it is traditional that when a new President enters office that all the federal prosecutors hand in their letters of resignation voluntarily. That's just the way it is. It just took him a while to get around to accepting those resignations.

[GreenEyedLady(GEL)]

I completely understand what the Pres's capabilities and powers are, however that man was convicted by his peers. If he was innocent why not grant the full pardon ? He didn't get it because he's not innocent. Somewhere hidden is the truth, people are getting their asses covered by Bush , and Im sure Bush is only covering his own as well.

[biwords]

"A patriot is a person who loves their land and people and will do whatever is necessary to protect them. A nationalist is a person who loves their government and will do whatever it tells him." :2cents:

Well, I don't know about that...in the US today the word "nationalist" has been appropriated by Pat Buchanan and his followers, and he certainly has no love for the U.S. government. For that matter (and no comparison with Buchanan is intended here), the Nazis were a radical nationalist movement opposed in the 1920's to the government then in power.

More to the point, the word 'nationalism' denotes a political creed, while 'patriotism' denotes a sentiment. There are different and competing doctrines of nationalism; there's no 'doctrine' of patriotism.

[bohemian69]

Defend America - Defeat Bush!!!!!!!!
Impeach the Motherfucker already!!!! :) :2cents:

[GreenEyedLady(GEL)]

AMEN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dans94]

I'm sure the conservatives on here don't watch South Park but there was an episode where the town decided to bury their heads in the sand so the Radical Islamist's wouldn't kill them for watching an episode of The Family Guy. I just love satire!!!! It goes right to the heart of the pro-Bush nationalists....and any other group that wields their power foolishly.

[biwords]

I'm sure the conservatives on here don't watch South Park but there was an episode where the town decided to bury their heads in the sand so the Radical Islamist's wouldn't kill them for watching an episode of The Family Guy. I just love satire!!!! It goes right to the heart of the pro-Bush nationalists....and any other group that wields their power foolishly.

Um, what was the point of the satire?

[dans94]

Um, what was the point of the satire?

Pretty simple, really. If you don't get your head out of your ass and look at 'things' with an open mind, you're doomed to be dominated by the idiots.

To further clarify: Look at everything that is happening around you and with you with clarity.

Jeez, it all of a sudden lost it's humor for me.

[canuckotter]

Every day, I'm more and more appalled at what your government does and what the so-called conservatives let them get away with. It's horrifying just how screwed up and twisted America's becoming... You've lost any pretense of having any sort of moral high ground... Terrifying.

[biwords]

Pretty simple, really. If you don't get your head out of your ass and look at 'things' with an open mind, you're doomed to be dominated by the idiots.

To further clarify: Look at everything that is happening around you and with you with clarity.

Jeez, it all of a sudden lost it's humor for me.

Gee, and here I thought it was: when the potential problems posed by the existence of a growing Islamic population within the US are mentioned, the uber-liberals stick their heads in the sand.... :)

[chulainn2]

Every day, I'm more and more appalled at what your government does and what the so-called conservatives let them get away with. It's horrifying just how screwed up and twisted America's becoming... You've lost any pretense of having any sort of moral high ground... Terrifying.


Unfortunately Geo W. is not a conservative. Hes a democrat in a republican's clothing. He like the dems has become a limp wrist.

[DiamondDog]

Every day, I'm more and more appalled at what your government does and what the so-called conservatives let them get away with. It's horrifying just how screwed up and twisted America's becoming... You've lost any pretense of having any sort of moral high ground... Terrifying.


Unfortunately Geo W. is not a conservative. Hes a democrat in a republican's clothing. He like the dems has become a limp wrist.

The same could be said for Bill and Hillary Clinton and how the rest of the "democrats" are actually conservative.

[FalconAngel]

After all this time, people are still surprised that Emperor Bush is still doing the things that only a corrupt politician and oathbreaker would do.

If you really are tired of this petty dictator then there is a place to go;

http://www.impeachbush.org/site/PageServer?pagename=homepage

Also there is; www.VoteToImpeach.org

[biwords]

Unfortunately Geo W. is not a conservative. Hes a democrat in a republican's clothing.

Exactly right. Eisenhower was considered a liberal Republican, but he oversaw "Operation Wetback" -- a far cry from Bush's proposed amnesty policy. And Dubya's make-the-world-safe-for-democracy foreign policy derives from Woodrow Wilson -- a Democrat whose domestic claim to fame, incidentally, was introducing racial segregation to the US civil service.

[Doggie_Wood]

According to the US Constitution--I don't know the exact place that does give him that power--is able to grant pardons for Federal crimes --the power is absolute and he has to give no reason--and it can be for any offense including and up to, Capital Murder----

I don't agree with Bush's pardon of Libby, but he was fully within his power to do so....

I agree volty - and the idiocy of the pardons given is not limited to Bush.
Clinton pardoning a relative (I think it was a brother) for cocaine convictions.
And I am sure the predesessory list goes way back.

:doggie:

[Doggie_Wood]

Defend America - Defeat Bush!!!!!!!!
Impeach the Motherfucker already!!!! :) :2cents:

I'm glad we're not back in the 1800s - you would be the driving force of a lynch mob - I will defend AMERICA, and that includes defending my Commander-in-Cheif, The President of The United States. I may not agree with everything that he has done or is currently attempting to do. But until he actually violates the laws of our country (and is found GUILTY by a jury of peers), peeps like you and Cyndi Shithead need only wait until Nov. 2008. Then ellect some real dumbass like Kerry or Mrs Billary to the office.
So far, I see only one viable candidate, The Senator/Actor. Although he is not the orator that Reagan was, his values and beleifs are thus far unchallanged nor are they matched by any other candidate. :2cents:
:doggie:

[tallkerri]

God i love reading vitriol...Rep..Dem...who cares...you live in one of the few remaining countries in the world that allow bi/gay/whatever lifestyles...revel in it, and leave the politics to the pols...everyone has an axe to grind, but pleeeeeeease, keep it off of here, this is supposed to be a fun site for us, not a forum for discourse....now lets all get naked and have sum fun!!!... :2cents:

[FalconAngel]

I'm glad we're not back in the 1800s - you would be the driving force of a lynch mob - I will defend AMERICA, and that includes defending my Commander-in-Cheif, The President of The United States. I may not agree with everything that he has done or is currently attempting to do. But until he actually violates the laws of our country (and is found GUILTY by a jury of peers), peeps like you and Cyndi Shithead need only wait until Nov. 2008. Then ellect some real dumbass like Kerry or Mrs Billary to the office.
So far, I see only one viable candidate, The Senator/Actor. Although he is not the orator that Reagan was, his values and beleifs are thus far unchallanged nor are they matched by any other candidate. :2cents:
:doggie:


He has violated the law. Many times over. Just go to the links that we previously posted here and they tell you how many times and in what ways he has done so. More than enough for impeachment.
The problem is getting our congress to behave more like patriotic Americans and less like political minions.

[wolfcamp]

:soapbox President Bush commuted Scooter Libby's 2 year prison sentence saying it was a bit harsh ? Since when does the President of the United States decide whether or not someone goes to prison ? He respects the Federal courts decision to convict, but wipes it away. Doesn't matter that the courts found one of his aides guilty. As far as Im concerned Bush is just as guilty of obstruction of justice and wish they'd freakin impeach his ass. What a disgrace. Total ludicris. :banghead:


At first I wondered why Bush didn't just pardon Libby, but the whole thing makes sense if you think about it. Bush felt that he owed Libby big-time for taking the fall and keeping people higher up from going down. Bush is huge on loyalty. He kept Libby out of jail which was really the worst of the sentence. Some anonymous donor will pay Libby's fine, and I'm sure Libby will be compensated handsomely in some clandestine manner. Libby is left with probation and a felony conviction. Probation is no problem because he's not really a habitual criminal. He'll just do lunch every day with his cronies and wait out the probation period. The felony is really no problem either. So what if he can't vote or own a gun? No big deal. On the other hand, he will use his newly acquired fame to write books or become a high-paid speaker, making several million dollars in the process and following in the path of Howard Dean and G. Gordon Liddy, and, yes, Bill Clinton, although Clinton wasn't actually convicted of anything. Maybe he'll head up a conservative think tank. It's not like he has to go out and apply for a job like the rest of us.

Bush felt he had to repay Libby's loyalty and also keep him from becoming disenchanted and really spilling the beans. Who doesn't believe that Libby was reassured that he wouldn't serve time if he kept his mouth shut? Sure Bush and his party will take a political hit, but it will be minor flak from a commutation, rather than a full broadside from a pardon. Besides that, Bush has nothing to lose. His ratings couldn't be any worse, and he's on his way out.

There's no need to waste the taxpayers' money with impeachment. Bush is a lame duck, (to wit, the Immigration Bill). He's basically history at this point.

[wolfcamp]

I will defend AMERICA, and that includes defending my Commander-in-Cheif, The President of The United States. I may not agree with everything that he has done or is currently attempting to do. But until he actually violates the laws of our country

I'm so glad you feel that way about Clinton. Oh, WAIT! Were you talking about BUSH????
:eek:

Sorry Dogwood, I just couldn't stop myself. :rolleyes: ;)

[biwords]

At first I wondered why Bush didn't just pardon Libby, but the whole thing makes sense if you think about it. Bush felt that he owed Libby big-time for taking the fall and keeping people higher up from going down. Bush is huge on loyalty. He kept Libby out of jail which was really the worst of the sentence. Some anonymous donor will pay Libby's fine, and I'm sure Libby will be compensated handsomely in some clandestine manner. Libby is left with probation and a felony conviction. Probation is no problem because he's not really a habitual criminal. He'll just do lunch every day with his cronies and wait out the probation period. The felony is really no problem either. So what if he can't vote or own a gun? No big deal. On the other hand, he will use his newly acquired fame to write books or become a high-paid speaker, making several million dollars in the process and following in the path of Howard Dean and G. Gordon Liddy, and, yes, Bill Clinton, although Clinton wasn't actually convicted of anything. Maybe he'll head up a conservative think tank. It's not like he has to go out and apply for a job like the rest of us.

Bush felt he had to repay Libby's loyalty and also keep him from becoming disenchanted and really spilling the beans. Who doesn't believe that Libby was reassured that he wouldn't serve time if he kept his mouth shut? Sure Bush and his party will take a political hit, but it will be minor flak from a commutation, rather than a full broadside from a pardon. Besides that, Bush has nothing to lose. His ratings couldn't be any worse, and he's on his way out.

There's no need to waste the taxpayers' money with impeachment. Bush is a lame duck, (to wit, the Immigration Bill). He's basically history at this point.

Totally astute. Excited to hear about your return to school, wolf -- your teachers'll be fortunate to have you.

[scubaman]

:soapbox President Bush commuted Scooter Libby's 2 year prison sentence saying it was a bit harsh ? Since when does the President of the United States decide whether or not someone goes to prison
Have you already forgotten Bill Clinton?
Let me refresh your memory,


WASHINGTON, D.C. - President Clinton today granted pardons to 59 people and three commutations of sentence. Attached is a list of those persons.
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/pardons6.htm

just to mention a s few of the offenses in which these people were convicted
conspiracy to commit bank fraud
recieving a stolen vehicle
possession of destructive device
conspiracy to contribute cocaine
forgery of savings bonds
rackarteering


There was no crime comitted by Libby. The libs just want to whip somebody and the screacher Hillary of all people should shut her trap! Remeber the missing files that suddenly popped up in the white house at the very last minute, remember white water, that woman is a crook. And having her screaching about above the law would be like having Ted Kennedy giving drivers ed courses.

In addition to files missing, and adding to the white water scandal, how many people connected with the Clintons ended up murdered during that time period??????

Also, this administration is not perfect, I agree. It is the MO of politicians! The Democrates have the majority now so they have the bigger voice. Remember Bill on national TV lying to the American people???? This is todays politics - not just the Bush administration.

[scubaman]

Defend America - Defeat Bush!!!!!!!!
Impeach the Motherfucker already!!!! :) :2cents:

Hummm, Defend America. I think he is. How many attacks have we had on our soil since 9-11? Defend America, do you think Clinton did???? The planning processes started during his presidency, and did nothing. Bush was received the climax of that planning early in his presidency. Agree with the war or not, we have not had an attack on our soil since. Great Britton is now cleaning up the mess from recent attacks, and they are now arresting people, Spain has had attacks, and the list continues. Today is the 4th of July and we need to thank our military and there families for their sacrifices!

[darkeyes]

:soapbox President Bush commuted Scooter Libby's 2 year prison sentence saying it was a bit harsh ? Since when does the President of the United States decide whether or not someone goes to prison ? He respects the Federal courts decision to convict, but wipes it away. Doesn't matter that the courts found one of his aides guilty. As far as Im concerned Bush is just as guilty of obstruction of justice and wish they'd freakin impeach his ass. What a disgrace. Total ludicris. :banghead:
Since Libby wos 1 of his m8s an doin wot Bushie wanted GEL. Interestin fact...Bush has pardoned far fewer people an commuted far fewer sentences then any President as far as I can tell in the last century. Accordin to the BBC he has cummuted the sentences of 13 people and pardoned 4. His dad is next in line with something approaching 100 commutations an pardons. All other Presidents of the last century the numbers run inta 100's, even republican Presidents like Eisenhower an the Holy of Holies, ole Reagan himself! Gerry Ford in his short time (quite apart from quashing the impeachment of Richard Nixon) pardoned an commuted the sentences of more people than the 2 Bushes put together...

Interesting. Bt then wot else do ya expect of a man of such high moral an religious principle!

[biwords]

Interesting info indeed, Fran -- thanks. You don't have a soft spot somewhere for Dubya, do you? :)

[azirish]

Well, everyone must have quickly forgotten the numerous pardons Bill Jeff gave at the end of his term!...I'm not a fan of any politician...just keep things in the same vain as other past Presidental pardons. For the record it was Richard Artimage who "outed" the supposed undercover CIA opperative, not Scooter Libby.

[darkeyes]

Silly me..didn even kbow who Dubya wos Wordsie...dus now...so wotya reckon???? :tong:

[hudson9]

Well, of course every president pardons people as they leave office. Yup, Clinton did it too. Care to compare Clinton's list with Bush 1? or Reagan? You will find criminals and scumbags on ALL of them -- rich ones, who could afford to "make their case" to the pres. in question and his advisors.

However, if you read the Federalist papers, you will find that James Madison was particularly worried about the possibility of a president pardoning one of his own staff or subordinates. In Madison's eyes, such a pardon would be an impeachable offence.

On the issue of the Federal prosecutors, someone said:
"...it is traditional that when a new President enters office that all the federal prosecutors hand in their letters of resignation voluntarily. That's just the way it is. It just took him a while to get around to accepting those resignations."

These WERE Bush's appointments, NOT hold-overs. They had all received positive job performance assessments. However, they had all also either prosecuted prominent Republicans, or refused to prosecute (on grounds of lack of evidence) Democrats. In other words, their professional judgements of where a crime had been committed, conflicted with the political agenda of the Bush/Cheney White House. God help us all when prosecutions are decided on the basis of politics.

You may like the prosecutions pursued by Alberto Gonzolez. But would you be as happy with prosecutions based on the political beliefs of Ramsey Clarke? -- Clarke was Attorney General once upon a time. Would Blew Bi Me be just as happy to let Ramsey Clarke do whatever he wanted, and not want to know about it...? Because if none of us are paying attention, things can easily swing to either extreem, of the left or right. The "know nothing" attitude is a bigger threat to safety and rights of us regular people than the extreemists on either end -- because that is what makes it possible for the extreemists to acquire the power that they then wield to their own advantage -- as we are seeing today.

[Azrael]

You all know how I feel about it. I ain't touchin' this with a ten foot pole.

[welickit]

Looks like we all agree so lets give them a fair trial then hang them. Maybe we could schedule the hanging for Presidents Day. That seems fitting. They could all "Tie the knot" together.

[Doggie_Wood]

Well, everyone must have quickly forgotten the numerous pardons Bill Jeff gave at the end of his term!...I'm not a fan of any politician...just keep things in the same vain as other past Presidental pardons. For the record it was Richard Artimage who "outed" the supposed undercover CIA opperative, not Scooter Libby.

You are correct azirish. And according to the law, it is a Federal Offense to disclose the name of a CIA member who is "engaged in covert :cool: operations" and "in the field". At the time she was "outed", neither of the aforementioned pertained to her. She was assigned to a desk. So technically, no crime had been comitted.
Libby was a scapegoat. Pure and simple. The prosecutor was after Libby for :eek: political gain. :2cents:

:doggie:

[Doggie_Wood]

Looks like we all agree so lets give them a fair trial then hang them. Maybe we could schedule the hanging for Presidents Day. That seems fitting. They could all "Tie the knot" together.

Be sure to make room for :eek: Bill and Hillary.

:doggie:

[Doggie_Wood]

Hummm, Defend America. I think he is. How many attacks have we had on our soil since 9-11? Defend America, do you think Clinton did???? The planning processes started during his presidency, and did nothing. Bush was received the climax of that planning early in his presidency. Agree with the war or not, we have not had an attack on our soil since. Great Britton is now cleaning up the mess from recent attacks, and they are now arresting people, Spain has had attacks, and the list continues. Today is the 4th of July and we need to thank our military and there families for their sacrifices!

Thank You - And don't forget, some more recently than others, the number of terrorists plans have been thwarted under GWB's watch. And surely we haven't heard of them all. Just the ones the liberal media wants us to know about or the ones that FOX has aired. :2cents:
:doggie:

[midtnbi8669]

This sure has been an interesting thread... I think it all boils down to the fact that "WE" are the "government". NOT the politicians, regardless of their party affiliation, that fuck the people that elect them at every turn.

If we don't like the way things are, its up to each one of us to change them.

I wonder how many people that have commented here actually VOTE? How many call or write or email their elected officials? How many have been to their senator or congressman office to meet them and state their positions on the many issues that affect every American? If you look at the numbers, most American's don't do any of this. When only 26% of the population voted in the last Presidential election, what the hell do we expect? A president that gives a fuck about what the people think? I don't think so...

Unless "We The People" get fucking pissed off and vote lousy assholes out of office, we will get what we deserve.

I'm a Conservative Independent and hate most all these money grubbing, power hungry bastards that have taken over this country. I believe that most of us feel the same way. I also believe there is no such thing as a total Liberal or a total Conservative in our country. Not that I have ever met anyway. So that means that we have to vote for the people that most closely resemble our individual points of view. If then they don't perform to our expectations, then we have to vote them out and someone else in until these politicians get the message that we aren't going to tolerate their bullshit any longer.

If we do this enmasse, then we can change our country. But if all we do is piss and moan and NOT get involved, then you can simply expect it to get worse. Is that possible? Just wait and see!

OH! and by the way...if you don't vote, YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN!!!!

[biwords]

OH! and by the way...if you don't vote, YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN!!!!

I never did understand that argument. Given that my vote has, effectively, a zero chance of determining the election result, not voting represents a rational choice. "Ah, but what if everyone thought that way?" replies the you-must-vote advocate. Well, but they don't, so that's irrelevant.

[rissababynta]

I never did understand that argument. Given that my vote has, effectively, a zero chance of determining the election result, not voting represents a rational choice. "Ah, but what if everyone thought that way?" replies the you-must-vote advocate. Well, but they don't, so that's irrelevant.


i agree. another reason why i never get excited about voting is that i always feel that i have a shitty choice to make. do i choose this guy that i don't want to see in office? or do i choose that guy....that i don't want to see in office? i usually feel that either way, i'm not gonna win, so why bother.

i also think that as long as you have an opinion, and you live in this country where you are allowed to speak your mind...you have every right to complain. whether you vote or not.

[REALBICPL]

What a farce!!! Shows that there is no regard for the Judicial system by the Executive Branch. Libby has some info on Bush without a doubt. This is a buddy buddy and Hush hush favor.... :(

[scubaman]

i agree. another reason why i never get excited about voting is that i always feel that i have a shitty choice to make. do i choose this guy that i don't want to see in office? or do i choose that guy....that i don't want to see in office? i usually feel that either way, i'm not gonna win, so why bother.

i also think that as long as you have an opinion, and you live in this country where you are allowed to speak your mind...you have every right to complain. whether you vote or not.



Because you are exercising your right as an American to go to the pole and cast your ballot. Yes, your vote is just one out of how many, with your vote you have voiced your opinion on who should hold office. It is more than lip service which you are doing by bitching about who is in office and did not vote! Just imagine what would happen is a majority of the peope did not vote? If I knew you did not vote and was bitching I would not think too much of your sincerity regarding the government which is in place. I vote and take it seriously and if I have a beef I do write my congress persons. Albeit, I am just one small voice, however, an important voice! BTW, it is has been said if you do write your congress reps, they do check your voting history and will give more credence to those who do vote! :2cents:

[hudson9]

You are correct azirish. And according to the law, it is a Federal Offense to disclose the name of a CIA member who is "engaged in covert :cool: operations" and "in the field". At the time she was "outed", neither of the aforementioned pertained to her. She was assigned to a desk. So technically, no crime had been comitted.
Libby was a scapegoat. Pure and simple. The prosecutor was after Libby for :eek: political gain. :2cents:

:doggie:

Except, you're wrong. The fact that she was assigned to a desk does not mean that she was not under cover. The fact that she was currently in the U.S., does not mean she was not a field agent. She was, in fact, under cover, her cover being as an executive of a (CIA front) company, which did business overseas (and which provided cover for other agents who were posted overseas). "Outing" Ms. Plame resulted in the "outing" of the CIA front company, as well as foreign assets working for the U.S. through that company.

As far as Libby being a scapegoat -- he may well be. This is not the first time anybody in this administration has resisted the impulse to do the right thing and stand up and take responsibility for something they've done, but let the hatchet fall somewhere else.

However, he was found guilty of exactly the same thing Clinton was impeached for -- lying under oath. Or is your position that it is less serious an offense to lie to Federal investigators looking at possible national security violations, than to a civil attorney about whether you got a blow job?

Oh, and the prosecutor who was out for "political gain" -- was a Republican. So, that political gain would work how, exactly?

[jamiehue]

See what happens when one relies on Fox news for Info.Valerie is hot scooter is not!

[canuckotter]

In addition to files missing, and adding to the white water scandal, how many people connected with the Clintons ended up murdered during that time period??????

Of all the ridiculous horseshit that gets paraded around in the name of "politics" these days, the Clinton Death List has to be the most absurd. I do have to admit that it does serve one (and only one) useful purpose: being such absolute nonsense, references to it do help immediately identify conservatives too desperately partisan to bother thinking for two seconds straight or to ever question anything that a "conservative" figure tells them.

Here's a little secret for you Americans: The Democrats aren't liberals, and the Republicans aren't conservatives. Nor are the Democrats conservative or the Republicans liberal. If you want to vote conservative or liberal or libertarian or whatever, that's your perogative, but for the love of Christ at least have the brains to look at what the people you're voting for actually stand for, not what they say they stand for. Hell, how many "conservatives" these days can even identify what being conservative is supposed to be about?

[scubaman]

[QUOTE=canuckotter]Of all the ridiculous horseshit that gets paraded around in the name of "politics" these days, the Clinton Death List has to be the most absurd.

Canuckotter - you are most correct, the Clinton Death List in one of the most absurd! And you are correct this horseshit gets paraded around in the name of "politics." Although implied, I was not referring to the "Clinton Death List," but stating there are a couple of those involved with Clinton as being unsolved and suspicious. If there was such a list, I would think a couple of females who might be on that list. Politics has changed in the last several years. They honestly don't break any promises as they don't make any. They are too busy opening closets and bringing out skeltons of their opponents. Bush giving Libby a stay on this jail time at the end of the day is very minor compared to the other pardons which has occured in the past. It was meant to eliminate his jail sentence, and to keep him on parole and monitored by the system. Impeach Bush? Not worthy of that, in my humble opinion.

[Doggie_Wood]

I'm so glad you feel that way about Clinton. Oh, WAIT! Were you talking about BUSH????
:eek:

Sorry Dogwood, I just couldn't stop myself. :rolleyes: ;)


Bush - Clinton - WTF is the difference - Oh Wait!! Bush squashed the Talliban - Clinton fired a missle up a camel's ass. :eek:
:doggiee:

[dans94]

I never did understand that argument. Given that my vote has, effectively, a zero chance of determining the election result, not voting represents a rational choice. "Ah, but what if everyone thought that way?" replies the you-must-vote advocate. Well, but they don't, so that's irrelevant.

Actually, even if no-one voted, the Electoral College would elect the president....as they do now. As far as president goes, our votes don't count.

[Bicuriousity]

Greeneyed lady, did you miss the 80 or so people Clinton impeached. This has been going on for a long time.

I have noticed alot of political threads, in many ways it is foolish to worry about things you have no control of.

[wolfcamp]

Greeneyed lady, did you miss the 80 or so people Clinton impeached. This has been going on for a long time.

Don't you mean "pardoned"?


I have noticed alot of political threads, in many ways it is foolish to worry about things you have no control of.

I enjoy the political threads, and I don't think it's foolish at all to discuss and listen to everyone's views, as long as it's kept respectful. That's the problem. Sometimes these discussions become heated and people resort to yelling and name calling. However, discussion creates awareness and knowledge about the issues. Of course, it helps to have LOGICAL arguments. Name calling, innuendo, and false arguments are not good ways to get your point across. I have definite opinions about most of the issues, but I'm still willing to listen to rational arguments.

Just because something is legal doesn't always make it right, and I think GEL is completely justified to be appalled by the Scooter Libby situation. Comparing this injustice to other injustices is just a diversion and doesn't make the situation less unjust. Maybe GW had every legal right to do what he did, but a lot of people will see that as an abuse of power and a symptom of the ills of his party, and their votes will be influenced accordingly in the next election.

Eventually this topic will fade away, and we'll get back to the business at hand, like considering what kind of underwear everyone is wearing. :)

Maybe it's just easier for me to discuss politics than to discuss my attraction to men. :rolleyes: :bigrin:

WC

[scubaman]

WC - Well put. You are correct, Gel is entitled to her opinions, that is what makes this country great. We can basically say what we feel. These type of threads are interesting as long as it entails no yelling and name calling! Great post! Thanks

[hudson9]

Bush - Clinton - WTF is the difference - Oh Wait!! Bush squashed the Talliban - Clinton fired a missle up a camel's ass. :eek:
:doggiee:

Actually, during the Clinton administration, a plot to bomb LAX airport was intercepted and foiled.

During the transition to Bush, Sandy Berger (Clinton advisor) told Condi Rice that Bin Laden and Al Qaida would be their greatest threat.

Richard Clarke (a hold-over from the Clinton administration) tried repeatedly for 9 months to get meetings with the Bush White House to discuss terrorism, Bin-Laden, and Al Qaida.

Bush, on vacation, received a PDB titled "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Within the U.S." (that was the title, he didn't even have to actually read it to know what it contained), and responded by -- doing nothing.

Then, after being told "Mr. President, we are under attack" he sat and did nothing for over 9 minutes. (There's the mark of a man of action.)

And, as you may know from news reports over the course of the last year... the Taliban is back in effective control of at least half of Afganistan. (Afganistan, where the hijackers and Al Qaida were actually based, not Iraq, which had no contact and nothing to do with Bin Laden, Al Qaida, or the Taliban.)

You can say there's no difference between Clinton and Bush if you want. That doesn't change the fact that the Bush administration is, at best, clueless if not downright incompetent.