Crossing the line

[Bi-ten]

Greetings all,

I raise this post after a friend asked me a question 'if a married person was to have cybersex with someone else, would that be cheating?' I immediately said to her 'of course it would!' but then thought this might be an interesting topic to take to another level :rolleyes:

Cybersex aside, I think most of us have experienced a friendly flirt with that hot nieghbour or co-worker. A touch, word or gesture that brings a small flush and warm feeling. My question is when do we cross the line? What cataclismic event moves us from the slow cooker into the proverbial fire?

When do you think we are actually cheating? :eek:

[Damon]

I have a simple answer for this.. Although maybe it is only simple to my logic.

The moment the thought of your partner comes to mind as this (Quote) "touch, word or gesture that brings a small flush and warm feeling"..

or to be more precise,

The moment that thought conflicts with your natural train of thought in the moment..

For example while you drive a car there is a natural train of thought.. whereby your mind operates within the boundaries of the rules of the road in conjunction with your driving preferences. As soon as you see something that conflicts these boundaries you become momentarily "Very alert" and it is at this moment when you take the action of braking or changing lanes or.. whatever

When the brief thought of your partner creates that brief "spark" of conflict.. thats when you know this is the line and you have a momentary-alertness decision to make. It is my understanding & experience that going with the flow of the moment is the easy option. Deciding that you're not going to cross the line you are subconsciously (and probably partially consciously) aware of is what takes strength & determination.

In conclusion it is my belief that cheating is not solely a physical action, but more a mental one..

I hope this gives a few ideas..

Damon

[JohnnyV]

Cheating is physical. And I like to go back to the basics to remind myself why "cheating" has a bad connotation in the first place. Cheating is bad because it creates hurt feelings and throw mistrust into a committed relationship. Phone sex or cybering poses no risk to the relationship unless you're spending so much time doing it that you neglect your spouse's sexual needs. When you phone or cyber, you don't know the other person so that other person can't show up at your house and creat a scene; it poses no danger to the marriage. Also, you can't get any STDs from cybering or phone sex, so you don't have to worry about bringing something home.

J

[SweetAmy]

Cybersex...its hard to define it as cheating but seeing that your talking to a man/woman and trying to "get off online" I guess I would call it cheating its the thought of you trying to seek "sex" or "love" outside of your relationship with your partner at home. Thats why cybersex is a big turn off for me. Anyone that trys it with me or hints around the bush about trying to cyber with me goes to my blocked list...this goes for yahoo chats as well.

Thats MO,

Amy :flag3:

[Lisa (va)]

Cheating, nah. For me at least I do not see it quite that way. First off, my husband is aware I visit chat rooms; I would not do or say anything I could not tell him (assuming he asks, which he doesn't). I hope that I am not the only one who takes a lil bit from here and makes my hubby the beneficiary. I believe that chatting about sex and / or cybering is about as much cheating as fantasizing while one masterbates. Then again it's a personal thing, for those that see it as cheating I can respect that as your personal choice.

Lisa

hug n kisses

[codybear3]

Cheating, nah. For me at least I do not see it quite that way. First off, my husband is aware I visit chat rooms; I would not do or say anything I could not tell him (assuming he asks, which he doesn't). I hope that I am not the only one who takes a lil bit from here and makes my hubby the beneficiary. I believe that chatting about sex and / or cybering is about as much cheating as fantasizing while one masterbates. Then again it's a personal thing, for those that see it as cheating I can respect that as your personal choice.

Lisa

hug n kisses

Ditto...But since I am in a fairly open relationship, does this mean I am cheating on one or the other, depending on who I am with? Because my lover knows I have sex with my wife, am I cheating on him? Or is it not considered cheating because they know? Cyber-is included in this. Although I am not into cybering, I have and will participate if or when asked.. :2cents: :paw:

[chook]

cybersex = enhanced masturbation, thats if you can type and jack or jill at the same time but cheating, in my opinion.............no, there is no phsycal contact no swapping of body juices just two over active minds. But of course if you want to meet your fellow masturbator and carry it out in real life...........well thats another story. My :2cents:



Cheers Chook :bigrin:

[Michael623]

Wow what an interesting topic. I think that there can be different degrees of cheating depending what you and your partner have committed to in vows or through other communications. And who decides what cheating is, you or your partner. If you have a relationship where it is open then very little could be considered cheating. My wife sees my thoughts of sex with anyone else as cheating. I don't, I see it as normal. Have I crossed the line. What purpose does it serve to tell her I masturbate thinking of someone other than her. And it is ok with her if I think of sex with a man but I am cheating if it is a woman. Most here at bichat seem to think that cyber sex is not cheating. Does it boil down to asking yourself what you would do if it were your mate instead of you. Isn't that the situation in most relationships. Do unto others. If you have a relationship with a person even in the cyber world and you are at chat and you are in a sexual situation can't you ask yourself what is my commitment to my partner and would I want them doing what I am. Or do we justify in our own minds what it takes to do what we desire sexually.

[arana]

Very good question Bi-ten....and I can see you will get a wide variety of answers. I think that your lines have lines within them and that it's not quite so cut and dry. When you come to the site strictly to get off and/or you're the typical a/s/l , "hi how horny are you" type then it's just another form of porn. Once you develope a continueing sexual relationship with someone that includes emotions and feelings along with cyber then it becomes something more and you have crossed the line into cheating. You know more intimate details of a person's desires and needs. Things a lover would know. I don't think that just because it's the same sex makes it different either. When you allow that thought then you are also conforming to the same stereotype that it's ok when 2 women do it but not 2 men. You still have an emotional bond that you wouldn't have if it were merely a friendship. I'm sure this won't be among the popular feedback.

Hugs,
arana :tong:

[mike9753]

Isn't cheating the result of breeaking the contract, or expectations of your spouse or lover? If your spouse of lover had a experience, cyber or otherwise with another person, how would you feel? Betrayed or accepting?
Mike

[Michael623]

I think if the typical asl lets fuck cyber sex is just a form of porn then no wonder I don't cyber. Why engage someone in sexual talk. No emotions, no lets get to know each other and what about after when so many of us continue to have contact with each other at chat. How do you treat that person? Is there a bond, do you keep having sex, laugh it off, what? It is very cold to me. What's your criteria for having cyber sex with someone, a warm body, a lets spend a couple of times talking to each other before. How can you say it's not sex. Gawd please tell me it hasn't come to that.

[Damon]

I think maybe you are loosing sight of the "Actual Question Asked". Most of the replies seem to hovering around cybering but as the original poster specified..



CYBERSEX ASIDE, I think most of us have experienced a friendly flirt with that hot nieghbour or co-worker. A touch, word or gesture that brings a small flush and warm feeling. My question is when do we cross the line? What cataclismic event moves us from the slow cooker into the proverbial fire?


Bi-ten is talking about face to face experiences. He clearly stated "Cybersex aside" and it troubles me to see some of the responses given to the question.

So NOW what do you all think about it CYBERSEX ASIDE..?

Damon

[Michael623]

Sorry I didn't get that from his statement at all. Lets ask bi-ten

[Mistya]

Bi-ten,

We are responding since we love the dynamics within this topic. In our opinion, this is a topic open to interpretation and subject to how others have established boundaries within their relationship.

"What cataclismic event moves us from the slow cooker into the proverbial fire?"

I know what keeps our flirtation in check: the amount of love, trust and respect within our relationship keeps us grounded. Neither of us has crossed the lines or boundaries of our relationship since we know how devastating 'cheating' would be to each other. Not even sex is worth the loss of what we have.

"When do you think we are actually cheating?"

Cheating, in our opinion or is defined as the exact moment you have chosen to break your word.

Hope you all don't mind this :2cents: worth but this is just an opinion.

Best regards :flag1:

[arana]

Greetings all,

I raise this post after a friend asked me a question 'if a married person was to have cybersex with someone else, would that be cheating?' I immediately said to her 'of course it would!' but then thought this might be an interesting topic to take to another level :rolleyes:

Cybersex aside, I think most of us have experienced a friendly flirt with that hot nieghbour or co-worker. A touch, word or gesture that brings a small flush and warm feeling. My question is when do we cross the line? What cataclismic event moves us from the slow cooker into the proverbial fire?

When do you think we are actually cheating? :eek:

Techinically Bi-ten tricked us with the slight of hand question. Started with cybersex then threw in cybersex aside......but inevidibly he did ask, when is it crossing the line so I would assume in any instance....not just one or the other. I still think that once feelings, emotions and desire within either crop up you are on the threshold of cheating....when you actually engage in sex with another you have crossed that line. I still think cybersex is different, more porn entertainment than actually cheating until you've developed a bond or relationship with the person you are with.

[perplexxed]

I don't feel that cybersex is cheating because it isn't anything physical. If you are married and your partner knows that you are bi or bi-curious, and supports your feelings; then i don't see how it could be cheating. However, if your partner doesn't know that you are bi or bi-curious and you are haveing online sex, then not only are you not being honest with your partner, your not being totally honest with yourself either! Communication is the key to any relationship, if it isn't there, then there is a problem.
Perplexxed.

[JohnnyV]

Perplexxed,

You said exactly what I meant to say.

J

[Bi-ten]

Well now,

This has turned into a fun topic, and no Arana... there is nothing up my sleeve lol:)

For sure it looks like we are in the realm of uncertainty, is sex on line really sex , how about on the phone, or in your mind? We can talk about sex with and without emotion...emotion with or without sex! When is a trust broken, when does a flirt become an affair? Is it good or bad...and who says so?

There are so many layers of truth we cannot put our finger on a convincing answer.

More fuel for the fire!

[arana]

Oh Baaaaad Bi-ten, you're just stirring the pot now! lol

[MissMoo]

Interresting question.

Here's my take:

Cybering is like watching a porn movie. It's not cheating, as long as it's not done at the EXPENSE of being with your partner, just like it should be with porn movies.

However - if a RELATIONSHIP starts with the "cyberee" it's not just cybersex anymore, its an emotional envolvement, and THAT actually IS cheating.

I hope it made sense, those were my two :2cents: ;)

~moo

[Michael623]

How is sitting at a computer in a private type written conversation with another individual each describing sexual acts to the other with the purpose of sexual fulfillment not sex. Call it verbal porn if you want but to me it's having sex with another person.

[MissMoo]

Alright, how would you call masturbating in front of a porn movie or pictures? Isn't that sex, by your definition? Is that also cheating..?

[mike9753]

What about the basic question - What is cybersex? Is it:

1. Looking at porn online?
2. Masturbating to porn, online?
3. Conversing with another in a chat room or via email for the purpose of exciting each other to orgasm while online (one hand typing)?
4. Conversing with another in a chat room or via email for the purpose of exciting each other to orgasm when you go offline?
5. All of the above?

My take continues to be based on the expectations established with your partner or spouse. Cybersex not withstanding. If you break the contract, you are cheating. If you engage in any activity with another, that you would normally only do with a person who you are in a relationship with, then you are cheating. Calling it cybersex and then saying it's OK - it's not cheating is an excuse for getting some on the side.:2cents:

Mike

[her hubby]

Cheating is a betrayal of trust. Boundaries (lines) are determined by the people within the relationship, some people are accepting of having an open marriage, some may not. Maybe if I lived my life within the realm of the internet, i might consider that I am cheating my wife out of something, but we have a (honest) relationship that works for the two of us. We don't force our values on others, and accept others at face value.

Bob

[Lorcan]

Cheating is a betrayal of trust.
Bob


Yes. Cheating is a betrayal of trust. Therefore, computer sex is only cheating if you one of your partners would consider it cheating. :2cents:

[JohnnyV]

Hi,

I hate to quote Aristotle but something he said has a bearing on this: there are differences in KIND, and differences in DEGREE.

I think cybersex and r/t differ in kind: one is not cheating and the other is cheating.

Others may say, "no way José" and insist that both are cheating. But even they would have to say that they are NOT equal. The differ tremendously in degree. One kind of cheating (real time) is much much more serious than the other kind. It is the difference between driving 40 in a 30 mph zone, and driving a stolen car across the Canadian border to smuggle illegal weapons to a terror cell.

Cheating in real life means taking huge risks. It involves exposing your real identity to another person, spending your marriage's collective money on a hotel room, opening yourself to physical harm or stalking or theft (let's say you don't know the person), creating a scandal (let's say you do), or -- and I hate to beat a dead horse -- taking the chances of getting an STD and bringing it home. You can do oral to avoid HIV and chlamydia, but that won't stop Herpes, syphilis, or gonnorhea. You can do anal/vaginal with a condom, but condoms can break, and even if they don't, there's moscullum contagiosium, public lice, Herpes, genital warts, or a fungal infection. If the condom slips your mind, then welcome to the word of trichomonas, HIV, syphilis, gonnorhea, chlamydia, this new one called LTV, and who knows what else. And then of course you have to worry about catching the flu, a cold, a weird bacterial infection, or the garden variety skin rash like tinea corporis, no matter what you do. All STDs have delayed symptoms of at least a few days, some as long as 6 weeks, giving you plenty of time to come home and unwittingly infect your significant other. Cheating in real life endangers your social standing, physical well-being, and health. It is MUCH worse.

Nobody's perfect. If you're going to cheat, PLEASE do it over the phone or the web, with people who don't know you. I'm not into guilt so I would not equate all forms of betrayal for moral reasons. I think it's better to be practical.

J :bibounce:

[MissMoo]

Good and true point, but the question wasn't "whats cheating" it was whether YOU concider cybersex as cheating ;)

Naturally, the question is asked why your partner would even SEARCH for cybersex, and whether he/she is not fulfilled by you if he does - but thats a whole different question.

I agree with the term of what is cheating, but do =you= think cybering is cheating? you didn't answer that one ;)

[wellred]

“A guy walks into a bar….”

And so with anticipation, we await the punch-line, thinking that perhaps we have heard it before. Bi-ten’s cleverly crafted post, like many of his others, keeps us hooked to the questions, while we slyly suspect that there may be an infinite number of answers. I have wanted to walk away from this posting, yet it has kept replaying in my mind, forcing me to question the essence of this query and its impact on whom and how I am. I have noticed the many of our readers seem also to be repeatedly drawn to this thread.

I believe that Infinity spreads her wings over each of us in our personal choices related to self-image, commitments, and relationships. I do not believe that a cookie-cutter, one response fits all, solution exists. For that I am grateful; life would be very boring! I may believe another person’s action may not be in her/his best interest or in the best interest of others, but it matters not what I believe. Each has a life course to follow.

For me, infidelity arises at the crossroads of Love and Judgment. Love, as I see it, is expressed sensationally through sex. Whether the love is self-fulfillment (for example, masturbation) or a communication exchanged between lovers, sex is a fulfilling act, originating within our minds and often demonstrative with our bodies.

The rub comes (stop giggling, Arana) because we carry a pervasive belief that a scarcity of love exists. We tend to believe that love cannot be boundless. Therefore, we must be protective of the love we give and how it is expressed. If I give my love to you and we have sex as an expression of how wonderful we feel about ourselves and each other; then I cannot possibly have any desire for others. For if I do, then I must be holding back all that is rightly yours.

This belief sometimes transfers to sex as being substituted for love. To feel better about ourselves, because we feel a dearth of love, we may pursue its surrogate, sex. Sometimes the concept, I believe, becomes reversed and we may desperately chase sex (cyber or not, with strangers or not) instead of love. If we truly believed that love was infinite, then we may be more readily fulfilled.

At this intersection, Judgment holds court. Based on whatever set of life circumstances and personality traits we carry, we make decisions about how we live. Some of those rules of life determine how we express our sexuality. This site expresses only a small fraction of those decisions compared to the much wider world of heterosexual and homosexual choices. Yet the variety of opinions and conduct displayed on this site alone seems endless.

Perhaps, it would be easy to be judgmental – pointing fingers and deciding cyber-sex is or is not cheating, labeling a level of flirting as excessive and hence is cheating, deciding that if no physical contact is involved then definitely it must fall into a cheating category or not. However, there are many ways beyond sex that may be labeled as cheating: keeping financial secrets, obsession with a job or a hobby, reading romance novels, addiction to sports, etc.

Judgment of our actions (or even our thoughts) is only as valid as we allow. Many people have codes with very clear boundaries. Others, because of personal circumstances, have found themselves compromising – and perhaps, even compromising their own set of principles. We create boundaries (rules) to create the illusion of safety, protecting for our relationships and our mind-set. What if these boundaries were less rigid and more elastic to changes that occur throughout the course of our travels?

If I am giving you what you need and you feel fulfilled, you may bask in the warmth of fidelity. If I give to yet another, does that threaten your confidence in the continuous flow of my love toward you? If I give love to you or another with personal sacrifice, who decides if I have I allowed myself to be victimized or ultimately rewarded?

So dear Bi-ten and the previous respondents, as you see, your posts have relentlessly invited me to explore the core of my sexual expression. Thank you! I am hopeful that my thoughts bring further contemplation and expression of life choices.

With Love and Light,
Red

[Damon]

Well said Red..

A kiss for you mwah*

Damon

[arana]

Thank you Wellred for reeling me back in. (BTW, I didn't giggle, maybe a little chuckle, but that's all) I remember setting many boundaries when I first came to this site. It was to be playful, friendly and fun, nothing more. Basic live porn at the most. Then I made friends here, gave more of myself then I'd planned. Still, not cheating, as I then revealed to my husband I was bi curious and opened up to him about chat and the people I chatted with. The site actually turned out to bring me out of my shell and make me more open with him. When you're being open with someone, telling them what you do, etc. I don't see it as cheating nor disrespecting their love.
Once you give your heart and share intimate details of love and passion with someone other than your mate, and I don't mean flirting or sex, but your soul, then you are cheating, in both cyber and the real world. You've developed a bond with someone as if they were your significant other.
This has been a very interesting thread. Thank you Bi-ten for giving us this forum of expression on this subject.

[Lorcan]

Good and true point, but the question wasn't "whats cheating" it was whether YOU concider cybersex as cheating ;)

Naturally, the question is asked why your partner would even SEARCH for cybersex, and whether he/she is not fulfilled by you if he does - but thats a whole different question.

I agree with the term of what is cheating, but do =you= think cybering is cheating? you didn't answer that one ;)


Oh oh oh I SEE! :rolleyes: Well, I don't think it's cheating. It just another way to get off. As long as he saves some for me. :bigrin:

[Bi-ten]

Dearest Wellred, Arana, and all who care to question their boundaries...you are most welcome!

It has been my great pleasure to plant this devilish seed and watch it grow into something much more worthwhile.

All I can say is thank God there is no black and white answer to this. For so many years I have tried to fit into the world of comfortable boundaries, only to have it expel me like so much bad take out;) Now I am determined to live a life of meaning...and that meaning is determined by me.

I myself have experienced cheating on many different levels...physical, mental, mechanical (OK stop laughing)...some were worthwhile and fulfilling, others destructive and humbling. All in all I would say that each added to the sum of what I am, because I have learned something.

Does that mean it was wrong? I don't know! All I can truely say that the level of guilt and pain experienced belonged mostly to me. I was the judge and jury...and I have paid some harsh penalties and reaped some rewards.

I do believe one thing, that love and our capacity to show love is indeed infinite...although as humans we have this irritating need to place rules and restrictions of that which is pure. Don't get me wrong, I am the biggest offender...but I'm learning.

Keep up the dialogue, you are all awesome!

[BiBiologist]

Thanks Bi-ten, and great posts by Wellred and JohnnyV!

I really wanted to add a point here that no one has brought up, and I think I'll start a new thread with it--the needs of a bisexual. Crossing the line for most people here has meant some form of dishonesty, of failing to follow the conventional rules established for married heterosexuals. No one actually said that, but that, we are told is "what our society is based on". Let me pose another potboiler: What if we as bisexuals have needs that can't be met under those conventional rules, making us much more vulnerable to mental and emotional problems than a healthy heterosexual? If we have a relationship with a same-sex partner, our spouse is deemed by straight society as wholely justified in condemning and divorcing us, just as would be true if a straight person in a marriage had an affair with an opposite-sex partner. So we abide by the rules of the greater heterosexual society, which, I believe, becomes a sacrifice for the bisexual member. Possibly, this is a sacrifice that leads to physical and mental illness. We are being condemned for trying to meet our needs to be as fulfilled as a straight person is by their one, monogamous partner. We are all trying to live within a social system that wasn't built for us, that wasn't built for humans with a different biological makeup. Within that social system, we are taught that sex without love is wrong, sex outside of marriage is wrong, so in a sense breaking of those rules is cheating against society. So if we go by those rules, then anything a bisexual does to fulfill themselves is wrong, and being fair for everyone else's sake becomes unfair to ourselves. Is this what we are doomed to?

[arana]

So are you saying that because we're bisexual that we can not maintain a healthy one on one relationship with a spouse without going crazy?

[kcunderwhere]

So are you saying that because we're bisexual that we can not maintain a healthy one on one relationship with a spouse without going crazy?

Sort of... :tongue:

No, I think what he is saying is that as bisexuals, we are different (unique :bigrin: )from straight or gay couples in that we have sexual desires that cannot be fulfilled by one gender. Not that we are any hornier or cannot maintain a monogomous relationship, but that we often have to deny those "bisexual" feelings because of rules made for heterosexual couples. And this denial can lead to emotional problems, stress, etc.

Of course, it is much more complicated than that...separating the ideas of love/intimacy from physical sex, accepting differences, principles of honesty and commitment, etc.

[BiBiologist]

Correctomundo, kcunderwhere, thanks! I never said anything about going crazy, arana. I said it makes us "much more vulnerable to mental and emotional problems". I am putting out a concept here that may seem a little too progressive for some people, but I'm coming at it from a biological perspective. That's the way I was trained, and I'm going with my strength. It is already known that others in society who are in the minority and forced to conform to majority conventions undergo more stress. If there is a stigma of stupidity, laziness, evil, etc., attached to your particular minority situation, that adds another level of stress. I'm not saying we can't maintain a one-on-one relationship--I've done that for over 22 years! I'm saying it's harder, and for some maybe just too hard to maintain without some sort of consequences. I think compromise should go both ways to maintain a marriage between a hetero and a bisexual. If a cyber relationship (yes, loving as well as sexual, or it would do me no good) helps to fulfill bisexual needs without causing scandal, venereal disease, etc. then it seems like a good compromise to me.

[wellred]

If there is a stigma of stupidity, laziness, evil, etc., attached to your particular minority situation, that adds another level of stress... I think compromise should go both ways to maintain a marriage between a hetero and a bisexual.

These are impressive perspectives, BB. We, as responsive human beings, seem to fear what we do not understand. So it is easier to distance ourselves from those aspects of life if we attribute negative characteristics to the "foriegner". For me this rings very true. Since childhood, I have tried to shun, without success, the arrows of being different from mainstream.

I agree that this added layer of negativity could contribute to some people having increased suceptability to emotional, cognitive, and physical ailments. However, it seems to me, there is also great potential to have a heightened sensitivity to the world around us, to carry empathy for the oppression of others, to express nearly boundless love and understanding for others. These are gifts that we may hone and offer the world.

Compromise between couples is inevitable. No matter how similar we may appear to each other, we cannot assume that we know the wants and needs of another -- unless we wish to flirt with peril. (My wife taught me that, lol.)
The greater the differences between the two (or three, or four, or etc.) in a relationship, the more compromise is required.


:2cents: - Red

[Michael623]

Hi Red,
How do you love someone and watch as they make love to another person or even hear them tell you about it. Am I in need of professional help, lol. I could imagine myself including another person in a night of love making but only if there was a controllable detachment to that 3rd person. I might in the heat of passion (enormous hardon, lol) watch as my lover was with someone else but what about the nest day or the day after. Are we all gong against the grain here?

Mike

[BiBiologist]

Yes, I agree we can be more emisaries and mediaries in the "war between the sexes" than combatants. I'm a lover, not a fighter!

[BiBiologist]

Yeah, we are all going against the grain, but I dispute the grain. I was responding to Red, and I'm taliking cyber compromise, but if physical affair is accepted by the partner, then that's up to you.

[wellred]

Hi Red,
How do you love someone and watch as they make love to another person or even hear them tell you about it...
Mike

Intently, Mike, intently, lol. Your fantasy is stimulating. Admittedly I am not sure what I wrote to prompt your interesting question. But I understand your point of view.

I seem to have contributed to a diversion of the original queston posed by Bi-ten in this thread. Perhaps, it is time to start another thread.

Nevertheless, "crossing the line" seems to have many varied responses from this collective community. And I agree that we, by nature, are going across the grain. I get chafed occasionally, lol.

Hugs,
Red

[Bi-ten]

Yeah, we are all going against the grain, but I dispute the grain. I was responding to Red, and I'm taliking cyber compromise, but if physical affair is accepted by the partner, then that's up to you.

Hello my Biological counterpart!

Ah the grain of it all;) I would second the motion that we must always question our norms, beliefs, and boundaries. If human beings were never to question the norms where would we be? The earth would surely be flat, witches would be burned at the stake, and Donald Trump would have a different haircut lol.

You raised another very interesting point to this discussion that I hope will not be overlooked. 'If a physical affair is accepted by the partner, then that's up to you'.

Am I to conclude that if I am given de facto permission (through the acceptance of my spouse) than all transgressions of societal norms are forgiveable? Interesting!!! I then pose the question...what if I give myself the same permissions? Does that mean I am not a cheater? What if society gave me permission?

Thanks for your perspective:)

[ThrillMe]

Let me put this somewhat generally:

If beauty is in the eye of the beholder, then the act of cheating is also in the eye of the beholder.

There are some men and women who consider masturbation by their partner to be a form of cheating (yes, they're out there - don't just say "well, that's pretty lame of them", or "they need to open up" - it's a simple fact).

Obviously then, cyber *is* a form of cheating to that person.

Moving further up the scale, I knew a couple who believed that oral sex was not considered cheating.

Another couple I knew lived by the words "as long as the only thing they bring home is experience, I don't care".

Therefore, it is truly up to the couple, and the individuals inside the couple to make the limits in the relationship that they can personally live with.

There is no right or wrong answer, just an agreed-to norm.

[m.in.heels&hose]

ok, now after reading all that has been posted here, im not sure what i think of "cybering" anynmore (lol) but my honest opinion is i dont really think cybering is cheating like chook siad if you go out and meet this person in real life than thats another story, but as far as cyber sexing goes, (my opinion here) is that its a form of mutual masturbation.
and like arana said that if you get more involved with a person (online) then it tends to get more "iffy"

thank you for my rantings and ramblings! :2cents:
m.in.heels&hose :tong:

[BiBiologist]

Quoting Bi-Ten:

Hello my Biological counterpart!

Ah the grain of it all ;) I would second the motion that we must always question our norms, beliefs, and boundaries. If human beings were never to question the norms where would we be? The earth would surely be flat, witches would be burned at the stake, and Donald Trump would have a different haircut lol.


Thanks Bi-Ten,

Giordano Bruno said, just before being burned at the stake for teaching that the earth revolves around the sun (and other heresies), "Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people." The idea that bi's are biologically different and need different conventions (different definitions of "cheating") will probably get me burned before it gets studied!

[moongirl]

I've loved reading this discussion - my take - if I formed a cyber-sexual friendship with someone without my husband knowing, yes it would be cheating in that I'd be hiding something. I've done this with him knowing and agreeing - not necessarily comfortable but there's another thing - so I don't see it as cheating although I am still a little secretive - I'd never do my net-girlfriend thing with him around!!! And I wouldn't want him reading it although I share some of what we talk about with him. For me it's being aware where my energy is - if a whole lot of energy starts going to that other person online and I'm neglecting my man, then I would need to look at that. But the truth is, I've still felt compromised, stuck in this weird place between wanting to hold onto the good stuff in my marriage and connect with a woman - I think a cyber-sexual friendship is a realistic compromise sometimes. And hell, it's about a little fun and nurturing of our bi-sides as well!!

Moongirl.

[mike9753]

OK, I have read alot of replies here and there are some very good points made. I guess what continues to stick in my mind are the following concepts:

1. Trust and honesty (between people) - if a person shares something intimate with another outside the primary relationship, even with prior permission, what happens?

i.e. Person A is in a primary relatonship with Person B.
Person A shares something intimate (cyber experience) with Person C.
If A shares the contents of that with B, doesn't he/she violate C's trust?
If A does not share it with B, then won't their trust suffer? And if repeated, will that trust be irrepairably damaged?

2. Trust and honesty (internally) - if you as a person, keep secrets regarding intimacies you share outside of your primary relationship, arn't you also demeaning/damaging yourself? Besides the fact that sometimes it gets very confusing - what you shared and what you kept private?

I hear and believe that we should push the envelope in order to grow and explore new boundries. But I also believe that these issues, trust and honesty, are universal. We all want to be treated honestly by trust worthy people. If our relationships are not characterized by these elements, then they are not really relationships, are they? I don't think that humans will change our view of how important these elements are to us over time.

Aren't we just looking for excuses to fool around outside our primary relationships because we are thinking with our glands not with our hearts?
:2cents: :2cents: :2cents:

Mike

[JohnnyV]

Mike,

Quoting you: "Aren't we just looking for excuses to fool around outside our primary relationships because we are thinking with our glands not with our hearts?"

Honestly, even if we are thinking with our glands and not our hearts, it's really not that big of a deal.

Everyone, relax. Upon deeper reflection, thousands of things we do in a week could be revealed as a transgression of someone's trust. My father called me a few times and I didn't pick up because I was busy. I made a mean face at the woman at the DMV when her back was turned, because I was frustrated. I popped the finger to a jaywalker in front of my car. I had unkind thoughts about one of my former co-workers and called her a "smarmy two-faced cookie-baking suburban Ann Coulter-like little bitch" in my journal.

In every case listed above, yes, I betrayed someone or acted in a way that wasn't entirely nice. If the people involved knew what I was doing, they might feel "cheated." But I'm not going to stress about it. Trying to remove every trace of infidelilty from your "heart", be it physical or moral or spiritual or biological or intellectual, would force you not to live your life. It would be like living in a sterile bubble in order to avoid catching the ebola virus.

Last week, I was away on business and I prowled gay.com to find a partner for phone sex. He called me in my hotel room and we jerked off while we fantasized about me fucking him without a condom in front of a mirror. He even spanked himself so I could hear it over the phone. It was loads of phone and I spewed a pint of cum.

Was this cheating? Yes! Was it wrong? Yes! If my wife knew about it, wouldn't it upset her? Yes! But she will not know about it. And I can deal with this tiny bit of unfairness without going crazy. So it's all kosher in the end. Cybersex is the equivalent of cutting one of those tags of a mattress, or hiding the fact that you got a parking ticket from your spouse. It's no big deal.

Relax!

J

[mike9753]

JohnnyV:

I don't agree, but if it works for you then that's up to you. It does not work for me.

That's the good thing about this forum, we can agree to disagree and share our views.

Mike

[csrakate]

OK…I've tried very hard not to become involved in this issue. As a person who runs from controversy, I hesitated to put myself into the ongoing debate because that would mean that I would also open myself up to rebuttals and quite frankly, I am still too new to all of this to speak with any authority. But since I feel compelled to speak on behalf of the hetero segment of the hetero/bi couples, I guess it is time to toss my two cents worth into the mix.

First of all, let me begin by saying that whatever a committed couple agrees to in regards to their relationship is their business and their business alone. As long as both parties are in full agreement and as long as no one is getting hurt, then more power to them. And no, I don't think cyber sex is necessarily cheating. If you had asked me over a decade ago I would have responded differently...the way that I did when I discovered that my husband was having a cyber sex relationship. At the time I felt violated...I felt as though he took our level of intimacy and trashed it in front of another person all in the quest for a sexual experience. But what I didn't realize at the time was that he was merely experiencing a sexual release...one that I couldn't satisfy for him and that it in no way meant that he no longer wanted or needed me. I have learned from being here that cyber sexual play is merely that - play. It is no different than a fantasy or a porn movie that brings you pleasure. And kept within certain boundaries...boundaries that require that you don't step outside of the "intimacy zone", it is merely a sexual enhancement. As they say down here in the South..."It don't matter where you get your appetite...just as long as you come home for supper."

But I guess the part I am having the most difficulty with is the suggestion that the bisexual is “trapped” in a relationship that does not allow them the ability to experience same sex encounters within the norms of society. You must understand that I am trying to learn as much as I can about bisexuality so that I can better understand my husband and myself so forgive me if I come off as sounding naive. But I just don't understand the issue surrounding the ability to remain monogamous in a relationship. Does being bisexual give one license to have sex outside of a marriage and/or relationship? Is it a permission slip for promiscuity? If you make the decision to commit yourself to an individual, you have made a decision to be with that person and that person alone. I mean, what if I found blond, blue-eyed men of Norwegian descent especially attractive? Did I fall in love with a blond, blue-eyed man of Norwegian descent? No…actually I fell in love with a man of German descent but blue-eyed nonetheless. Does that mean that I have the right to jump on the first blonde, blue-eyed Norwegian that crosses my path? And if I did jump him, should I expect society to forgive my transgression just because not being able to have sex with this man caused me pain and suffering? I think not.

I really hope that we can dispel the myth that people who are either gay or bisexual are merely sexual animals who are looking for the next easy lay. Instead, why can’t they be portrayed as individuals who merely don’t choose to limit themselves in their choices for love and companionship? Do we really need to make excuses for the bisexual community so that they can feel better about pursuing sexual relationships outside of their marriage? Like I said, if the couple is in full agreement and as long as no one is being hurt or betrayed, then no problem. I just don’t believe that we need to suspend the rules just because a few individuals have chosen to live a life that they obviously can’t accept.

And of course...this is just my opinion...as the wife of a bisexual man who upon telling me that he was bisexual, also told me that his sexual feelings had nothing to do with his ability to love me nor his ability to remain faithful to me. And after 25 years of marriage, I think I can speak for the spouses. We just want you to be honest with yourselves before you claim to be honest with us. If the lifestyle doesn't fit...then don't commit.

Kate

[moongirl]

LIked reading your post Kate, don't feel shy to write, you made some good points and on the few occasions I've posted I've felt a little shy also - like who am I to say anything??

The point I wanted to respond was, what about when you realise you are bi after a number of years into a relationship and then want to be able to explore that? I've been married nearly 20 years, have been aware of attraction to women for around 15, acted on it a year ago (with consent but lots of tears) and still feel a need to connect with other similar souls. Is this it for the rest of my life? ONe taste and then it's just a memory? At the same time I really value my relationship with my man and there are lots of positives in it, obviously. I guess this is part of the complication of it all - I was v. straight in my identity when I married.

moongirl.

[csrakate]

LIked reading your post Kate, don't feel shy to write, you made some good points and on the few occasions I've posted I've felt a little shy also - like who am I to say anything??

The point I wanted to respond was, what about when you realise you are bi after a number of years into a relationship and then want to be able to explore that? I've been married nearly 20 years, have been aware of attraction to women for around 15, acted on it a year ago (with consent but lots of tears) and still feel a need to connect with other similar souls. Is this it for the rest of my life? ONe taste and then it's just a memory? At the same time I really value my relationship with my man and there are lots of positives in it, obviously. I guess this is part of the complication of it all - I was v. straight in my identity when I married.

moongirl.


Moongirl,
Thanks for your kind words. This may be the one and only time anyone has ever encouraged ME not to be too shy to speak my mind...I ought to frame this and show it to my husband!!! I'm sure he would say that shyness has never stopped me before! LOL!!

I can certainly understand how your situation puts you in a very difficult position. But this is where you must make the decision as to what YOU need to do for not only yourself, but for your spouse as well. I guess the point I am trying to make is one for the spouses...try to understand what their perception might be when THEY are faced with a bi spouse they may or may not have been aware of. To learn after 20+ years that your wife may want to start sleeping with women will be difficult for your spouse...no different than you would feel if he were to come to you and say , "Honey, you've been such a great wife, I think I'm gonna bring home another one just like you!" (which of course would make things much easier for you in the event you two might hit it off...LOL...sorry...just had to say it)

Whatever you decide to do, it is obvious that the answer to your dilemma is far from a clear black and white answer...and one that I truly wish would be easier to discern for your sake. I guess I have to go on record with the others and say that there truly seems to be a variety of answers to a very complex situation and I welcome to hear from other, more experienced individuals. Like I said, I am here to learn and I am here with an open mind. It is not too late to teach this old dog some new tricks so come on, enlighten me...educate me...expand my mind. I may only be one person, but at least one person with an open mind is better than nothing!!! LOL!

Kate :tong:

[mike9753]

I think, as Kate said, that each person has to make up their own mind about how to condict themselves. I try to help people come to an informed decision by thinking through all the consequences of their proposed actions.

When it comes to sex and fulfillment these are very difficult questions to weigh. Perhaps I should tell you about my situation as an example.

I am in a long term relationship - a marriage. My wife is wonderful. If I went outside the marriage and had cyber sex or physical sex with someone - man or woman, FOR ME it would be a disaster. I would be unable to keep it from y wife - I am a very open person and I would not be able to keep this from her. She trusts me completely and I never want to let her down. And if I were to tell her, she would be devastated. I am not sure our marriage would survive. And in truth, if I went outside our marriage and betrayed her and broke our trust, perhaps w do not have the marriage I thought we did.

So I weigh the things that are important to me. I am very attracted to the thought of having M2M sex. I am very attracted to the thought of having a MMF sexual encounter. The label, "Bisexual" feels very comfortable when I apply it to myself. I have even shared this thought with my wife. I know that if I were to find a partner or a couple that it would provide some satisfaction for a short time. But it would endanger or destroy the elements in my life that I derive the greatest satisfaction from - my relationship with my wife.

I see myself as an adult, who has to make difficult choices. Just as when I go to a sumptuous buffet, I do not eat everything that is displayed. If I let my sense of taste rule my behavior, I would weigh 5,000 lbs. If I purchased the items I'd like, a Porsche Boxster would bankrupt me. I believe adults make these types of trade-offs all teh time and people who are happy with themselves struggle with, but make the right decisions that give them long term happiness. So I realize that sex outside my marriage would ruin my long term happiness and hurt the person in this world that I love the most. I feel I am missing out on something, but I am an adult and I do not have to indulge in every activity or temptation that exists in my world.

So that is my line that I do not cross, even tho I am often tempted to do so. And those are the reasons why I do not cross that line. But again, to each his own.

Mike

[kcunderwhere]

Very well put, Kate...you have obviously given this a lot of thought, and are willing to try and understand your husband.

Your second paragraph (regarding cybersex, porn, etc.) was very enlightened and quite surprising - and you hit the nail on the head in explaining sexual desires outside of hetero relationships. But then came your next couple of paragraphs...

Here is your wonderful quote -


"(your husband's cybersex is) a sexual release...one that I couldn't satisfy for him and that it in no way meant that he no longer wanted or needed me"

So, after reading your next paragraph, your hang-up (actually, societies hang-up) is the physical interaction - not even necessarily the bisexuality issue. However, your statement above remains exactly the same for physical interactions as well.

You equated a bisexual husband having sex with another man to a wife (in this case - you) having sex with a "blond, blue-eyed Norwegian" man...and that is a false comparison and faulty logic. As a man, your husband should be able to satisfy almost any sexual need you have for a man. Therefore, you should not seek companionship with another man other than your husband. However, as stated in your quote, you cannot satisfy his sexual needs for a man. Completely different.

Nobody here is recommending having "hidden" physical relationships outside of a monogamous relationship. In fact, I think everyone agrees doing anything "suspicious" behind your spouses back is wrong. Nobody is even remotely suggesting promiscuity. Nobody is propagating the "myth" that gays and bisexuals are "merely sex animals". Nobody is saying that bisexuals cannot be monogamous. Nobody is talking about throwing out all rules and having a total, hedonistic, polyamorus, promiscuous lifestyle. It is just that sometimes cybersex (or porn, or whatever) is not enough. Let’s face it - if you are a fisherman, watching fishing on TV is not the same as actually fishing.

It is not an "excuse" (bisexuality is not something that needs to be "excused"), nor is it a license to "cheat". Sexual needs are among the most powerful in nature...they are very difficult to just "ignore". People talk about a bisexual desire like it is the same as wanting a nicer car - just some insignificant whim. Unfortunately, it is a true, deep, sometimes obsessive desire. A typical heterosexual couple can fulfill those needs with each other exclusively. Even if someone has a "wandering eye", they can go home and get whatever they need (sexually) from their spouse. A bisexual, however, cannot get all of those powerful needs fulfilled by one partner. It sucks, but it is true.

I have to laugh at the hypocritical position people often take when a woman or man has an illicit affair because their spouse is "fridged". It is still "cheating", but many people admit it is not so bad - because it is only "sex" and they could not get those needs filled at home. Sometimes, people even feel sorry for a wife/husband in a sex-less marriage. Heck - not consummating a marriage is grounds for divorce! So, even mainstream society admits that sexual desires are incredibly strong and need to be fulfilled. However, when it comes to bisexuality in a relationship...we are expected to just ignore it.

I am not advocating "cheating" here - just trying to present some facts (as I see them, anyway... ;) )

[csrakate]

Mike,
Whether or not you are in the majority, your statements are an affirmation to me that it is indeed possible for monogamy to co-exist with bisexuality. It is always good for me to hear it from my husband, but to hear your declarations that you would in no way compromise your marriage to pursue a sexual fantasy are like a breath of fresh air...and they also help me to push aside the smirks I receive when some hear of my marital situation.

You know, whenever I tell my story, whenever I get to the part about my husband pledging to remain faithful, I am often asked, "are you sure?"...as if it isn't possible. While I choose to trust my husband and have no reason to doubt him at all, hearing such statements eat away at me over time, and when I am feeling particularly low...a little low on self confidence and self esteem, I re-visit those statements and I am amazed how quickly, after 25 years of marriage, I can still return to those early days of our marriage when I was filled with self doubt and fear. Of course, these feelings soon subside, as soon as I take a couple of Midol and consume a pound of chocolate...but it kills me that I feel it necessary to defend my husband's fidelity as if I were a figment of my imagination. This man has spent every moment of his very rare free time with me or with our kids...he even gave up golf because it took too much time away from the family (and for you golfers out there, you know that is a true test of love!!) so why must I doubt this merely because he is bisexual?

But then again, this is a whole different thread...and not relevant to the issue at hand...I just wanted to take this opportunity to let you know that I, for one, appreciate your candor about your marriage.

Kate

[mike9753]

However, when it comes to bisexuality in a relationship...we are expected to just ignore it.

kcunderwhere:
I am not 100% sure of your point, but your last sentance was important to me.

I don't think people's bisexual urges should be ignored. I believe they are valid, real and powerful AND very difficult not to satisfy. For some people, leaving a marriage to persue a bisexual life style is what they have to do. But I would speculate that for most, if their marriage is good and they are deeply in love with their spouse, they'll have to make a choice and not act on these powerful influences.

They may very well share it with their spouse, but, they will decide not to act on it.

Mike

[mike9753]

Thanks Kate for your kind words.

But I think that what you are going thru is at the heart of this issue. People believe that Bisexuals are more likely to wander, or "cross the line" than others. So their actions are suspect. And I don't know for sure, but maybe that is a true statement. I like oto thinki it's not true - certainly from what you have said, it's not true for your husband and it's not true for me, but we may not represent the majority.

But one thing is very true about human behavior. People tend to live up to the expectations of others. If you assume that a spouse is going to stray, then you increase the likihood that it will happen. If you assume that your spouse will be true to your marriage and be monogomous, then you increase the likelihood that he/she will. It's not guarantee, but it's often enough to tip the balance.

Mike

[csrakate]

Mike,
Thanks for your response. And you are so correct in this statement:

"People believe that Bisexuals are more likely to wander than others. So their actions are suspect."

This is precisely the reason that I was so adament in my first post about the need to stop perpetuating the myth that bisexuals are "out of control sex fiends" and start portraying them as people who are open to sex and/or relationships without regard to gender. Society needs to realize that they are very capable of making a choice to remain in a relationship or if not, they are purely free spirits who enjoy a variety of partners, not unlike their hetero counterparts. Why does sexual preference have to make such a big difference in how they are perceived?

I realize that I am seeking a perfect world, a world that doesn't categorize people based on "societal norms". And yes, there are exceptions to every rule and that is to be expected. But it is unfair to assume that all bisexuals are the same....ruled purely by sex drive and preference.

I also concur with your statement that bisexual urges are very real and to ignore them can be extremely difficult. And those who have left marriages in order to pursue the lifestyle should be applauded for their honesty, and while it may have been a painful decision to make, it is an honest decision that will more than likely be beneficial to all involved in the long run. And for those that choose to remain in the marriage, just remember that honesty and openess with your spouse is an absolute must for you to co-exist without one or both of you experiencing feelings of guilt or shame. What you and your spouse choose to do is your decision, but I just urge you to involve the spouse. Like I said...you CAN teach an old dog new tricks...you CAN heighten awareness with education...and you CAN find a mutually satisfying compromise...but you must allow your spouse the benefit of making that choice with you.

Kate

[kcunderwhere]

OK...let's try again.

How about this - Can anyone give an example of a situation similar to a frustrated bisexual in a monogomous relationship? I.E. - someone not allowed to fulfill a legal, safe, powerful desire that cannot be filled at home because of negative societal pressures?

Again, I am not advocating cheating, promiscuity, etc. - just want to try to put this in perspective.

Please, no more "if you love your spouse you will abstain", "if you try hard enough", "it is a personal decision" or similar responses - nobody is debating those things.

[mike9753]

Can anyone give an example of a situation similar to a frustrated bisexual in a monogomous relationship? I.E. - someone not allowed to fulfill a legal, safe, powerful desire that cannot be filled at home because of negative societal pressures?

How about a person in a heterosexual relationship with a spouse who for medical reasons has become dis-interested in sex or has to abstain due to this medical condition.

Does that situation give the other, sexual spouse permission to go outside?

Mike

[csrakate]

I guess I just don't get it. Please help me to understand. And no, I can't think of many other situations that fit the description of that of a frustrated bisexual in a monogamous relationship. But I guess I also don't understand just what it is you are seeking. Just why is it that you are not "allowed to fulfill a legal, safe, powerful desire that cannot be filled at home because of negative societal pressures"? Could it possibly be because you made that choice, the conscious decision to enter into a monogamous relationship? It all boils down to a matter of personal choice and the consequences of those choices. If you can't live with the consequences of a monogamous relationship then why on earth would you choose to live in one? And the sad truth is that society also doesn’t allow us to have our cake and eat it too. Bisexuals receive the scorn of the heterosexuals because they can’t understand the sexual attraction to the same sex. They receive the wrath of the Gay community because they won’t “declare” a preference one way or another. And to top it all off, they can’t exercise their right to seek out a physical relationship to satisfy their bisexual urges because society frowns on “cheating”. But does society HAVE to know everything that goes on in our personal lives?

What if you and your spouse just decided that you could handle this situation in your own personal manner? Are you required to get society’s permission to do so? Not at all! You should be able to do whatever you wish within the confines of your relationship…you just don’t need to publicize it, declare it, or fly in the face of the “norm”. We all are aware of the couples who find compromises...open marriages...shared relationships and if that works for them, wonderful!!

Before I close I want to add that I didn't mean to inflict my personal opinion on this thread so vehemently. But that's all it is...my personal opinion and what works for ME...I certainly don't expect that it works for others and I definitely respect the rights of others to live their lives in whatever form or fashion they desire.

Kate

[mike9753]

OK...let's try again.

Again, I am not advocating cheating, promiscuity, etc. - just want to try to put this in perspective.

Please, no more "if you love your spouse you will abstain", "if you try hard enough", "it is a personal decision" or similar responses - nobody is debating those things.

kcunderwhere:
I am really lost about what it is you are trying to say. It sounds as if you are taking both sides of the debate.

I get the feeling that you believe that society's norms are at fault here.

You say, "So, even mainstream society admits that sexual desires are incredibly strong and need to be fulfilled. However, when it comes to bisexuality in a relationship...we are expected to just ignore it."

I am unsure what you would like bisexual people to do, if you are not advocating that they go outside the monogomous relationship and cheat.

You also say, "Please, no more "if you love your spouse you will abstain", "if you try hard enough", "it is a personal decision" or similar responses - nobody is debating those things."

So what is your point? I am sorry to be so thick, but I don't get it. Maybe clearer heads can help.

Mike

[BiBiologist]

kcunderware,
I was very impressed with your post #54, you pointed out a lot of things I think Kate was seeing somewhere else about bisexuals and not on this forum. I was 100% sure of your point, and I thought you did a great job of expressing it. Kate, your last post was very helpful in clarifying what you were trying to say, and I think everyone here is making sense in their own way. It sounds like some of my posts about the biological needs of bisexuality being different from heterosexuals might be at the heart of some of this discussion, so I want to make a couple clarifying statements too.

1. I think there does need to be more acceptance and understanding of bisexuals in society, to reduce the sense even to ourselves that we are looked down upon and are at our core "just wrong". Keeping it all hidden not from the spouse but from society heightens the sense that we are sneaking around and doing wrong things. Just look at the news--a well-known person reported to be having an affair with a same-sex partner, even with their spouse's knowledge, will ruin that person's life, and society judges the spouse as looking ridiculous as well. Just as Gays have gradually earned more acceptance for their lifestyles in greater society, I think bi's need to too.

2. I believe we are biologically different from heterosexuals and gays, basically as the little research that has been done seems to show, and that these are not clear divisions but a continuum influenced by multiple genes. So what I have been saying is, yes we can stay within the bounds of a monogamous relationship, but with much greater difficulty, and possibly damaging chronic stress that is not experienced by heteros or gays in monogamous relationships.

3. This I am not presenting as an "excuse" for promiscuity. Oh, Heavens! If the people I grew up with, that know what a straight-laced person I was raised to be knew of my bisexuality, they would fall down laughing. Promiscuity is engaged in across the sexual spectrum, I think based on individual personality, ideals and culture more than a biological need.

4. Understanding bisexuality is first and foremost difficult for the bisexual. Simplistically, it's kind of like when you first suspect you can't see well, but you don't know what 20/20 vision is supposed to look like. But unlike just getting glasses, their are no corrective lenses for sexuality, so we may stumble blindly, find an opposite sex partner that we love, and get married, just like everybody else. The reason bisexuals stay in marriages is because they love their spouses, and because society pushes us toward married heterosexual relationships, especially to raise children, ESPECIALLY in America! It ain't so easy to just say, "If you can't live with the consequences of a monogamous relationship then why on earth would you choose to live in one?" Their are often bigger consequences for leaving a monogamous relationship.

5. It really is different to keep one side unfulfilled, and yes, we have choices, but any choice a bisexual makes is a compromise. Staying in a monogamous relationship, say a heterosexual marriage with no relations with a same-sex partner is continually frustrating to the bisexual but satisfying to the hetero spouse. Divorcing hurts everybody, but can allow the bisexual freedom to explore both sexes, which in turn is considered selfish and promiscuous and frowned upon by society, causing additional stress. An open marriage where the bisexual is allowed to have an outside relationship strains the bonds of marriage, is a sacrifice for the hetero spouse, and an emotional juggling act for the bisexual. And everybody agrees that crossing the line, "cheating", being dishonest in our relationships is the most wrong and hurtful thing to do.

So, we are not going to solve this until society is ready to be more accepting, and more studies get funded to help us determine what we are all about, and maybe comes up some "corrective lenses".

[kcunderwhere]

Mike - nobody is thick-headed...it just me giving a glimps inside my muddled head...sorry if I scared anyone! :tong:

As for your response to my question about similar situations:

How about a person in a heterosexual relationship with a spouse who for medical reasons has become dis-interested in sex or has to abstain due to this medical condition.

Does that situation give the other, sexual spouse permission to go outside?

Mike

Your example is dealing with heterosexual sex...which does not equate to the bisexual problem. A bisexual husband is not seeking sex with another woman, because (theoretically) his wife fills all sexual needs for a woman. He is seeking sex with a man which cannot be obtained at home.

Now, that being said, there are many examples of a wife/husband being unable to perform sexually and giving the spouse permission to safely engage in extramarrital relations - but with the full knowledge of both people.

Kate - I love your responses and your input in this matter! Even if we don't see everything the same, you are definitely making me think!

Many of your (and other) responses deal with "monogomous relationships". Again, it comes down to perceptions of sex...if you believe sex is only an expression of love, then "monogomous" means not having sex with anyone else. If you believe there can be different types of "sex" not intricately tied into love, then "monogomous" could mean not "loving" anyone else, with the "sex" issue being separate.

Confused? :bigrin: Here is the next leap - tying the two ideas together. Now, I don't have any interest to be with another woman besides my wife. She can fulfill all my sexual needs for a woman. If you can fill a particular need within your relationship, then going outside that relationship to fill that need could become a questionable thing. However, she cannot fulfill my needs for sexual interaction with a man.

So, to summarize so far:

1) For me, being monogomous means I love nobody but my wife and I do not seek to fulfill any important needs outside of my relationship that my wife can provide.

2) Sexual desires are very strong, and I happen to have sexual desires for men as well as women. My wife can take care of all my needs for a woman, but cannot fill my sexual needs for a man.

It seems many people talk about this issue as if it is a very casual thing, like these desires are akin to wanting a new pair of shoes...people say "you already have a pair of shoes", or they think it is just some fleeting fancy. Well, I don't have a "pair of shoes" at home, and I don't think anyone would debate the incredible power of sexual desire - nations have been built and destroyed by these desires.

Again, I am not advocating "cheating". I will not cheat on my wife. Sorry if it sounds like I am playing both sides, Mike (although that is kind of the point of this website :tong: ) Like Kate said, though - the ideal would be if my wife and I could come to an understanding about this, and I could find a release for my pent-up sexual frustrations. I agree, screw societies rules if we are happy and not hurting anybody. However, I don't think it is going to happen.

I applaud Kate on her understanding of her husband...and I hope "virtual" sex with guys is enough for him. Unfortunately, I know from my exprerience that it is ultimately unfulfilling. But, it is the sacrifice we have to currently make.

I guess, Mike, my ultimate point is wanting people to realize what a very unique situation this is - that was why I asked the question in my previous post. It might take some equally unique understanding to solve the "problem". Sometimes, the "rules" don't apply to every situation. Hopefully, this understanding will eventually lead to a better life for everyone.

I hope this clarifies things a bit...the floor is open for questions... :bigrin:

[kcunderwhere]

BiBiologist - wow, great post! Of course, being on my side might make me a bit biased in my opinion... :bigrin:

I wish I could think so clearly...

[csrakate]

kcunderwhere,
First I want to say that I didn't see your post #54 and I hate that I continued to post without seeing it. It was very informative and you helped me see through the haze of my sometimes very emotional responses. (A major character flaw...I often type before I think and that became quite apparent when I went back and read my posts again!) I appreciate your input and as I said, I am trying to learn, to keep an open mind and to gain a greater understanding. I am aware that my thinking and my views are flawed and that is one reason that I come here, to have the verbal intercourse necessary to see other sides of the picture. Thank you for your patience in your attempts to re-direct my thinking.

Bi-Biologist,
The same I said to kcunderwhere applies to you as well. Thank you for shedding light on other aspects of bisexuality that I never would have considered. Every day I realize that I have come a long way, but I also realize that I have very far to go before I fully understand. I also realize that it is possible that I may never reach that point. But I am willing to listen, to give each and every statement a great deal of thought and then to digest as much as possible within the confines of my "societal norm" dictated mind.

I am appreciative that neither one of you has judged me as a lost cause nor have either of you "talked down" to me. Both of you seem quite aware of my situation and I thank you for taking the time to share your wisdom and experience with me. I will try to continue to receive such information with an open mind and who knows...maybe one day I WILL get it!!

Thanks again,
Kate :tong:

[mike9753]

BiBiologist:

You make very good points. As I read thru your post, the following question came up for me:

Why do bi-sexuals exist? Could it be a species adaptability issue? Will having a percentage of the human population on this planet heterosexual, another percentage homosexual and now what seems to be a growing percentage bisexual, further species survival in an environment that is becoming increasingly more competitive for resources?

I know what you may say, that these sorts of demographic trends take eons to develop. But I have always been struck with questions of how human sexuality helps or hinders our ability to survive. For instance, insects multiply at enormous rates. Yet they are not the dominant species. Rats proliferate very successfully, yet they are not the dominant species. Humans do not propagate as quickly or as efficiently - gestation takes 9 months, after courtship and we are the dominant species. So now we have an evolving gender issue. More people who are hmosexual are declaring their status and demanding the same rights as heterosexual couples. It is more difficult for gay couples to have children - not impossible but difficult. Bisexual people's reproductive abilities need to be studied. The whole status of being a bisexual couple is clearly undefined. What does it mean to the individuals involved? What does it mean in terms of reproduction?

In keeping with the question posed by this thread, what new lines are being developed as a result of the existance of bisexuality in todays world?

Just a few random thoughts.

Mike

[csrakate]

kcunderwhere,
Now I have seen post #64 and I literally have tears in my eyes from your kind words and your understanding! Thanks again...The picture is getting clearer. It may not change a whole lot for the time being, but it does leave the door open for the future. Hell, it's taken me 25 years for me to get this far...I guess I better get busy for the next 25!!

Thanks again,
Kate

[kcunderwhere]

Kate :angel: -knock if off! You're going to get me tearing up, too!! :grouphug:

[BiBiologist]

Yes, gosh, this has all been swell, you guys! Seriously, this is a neat bunch of people doing the best we can with such a difficult topic.

Mike, as I keep saying I'm going to start a new thread but I haven't got my stuff together yet. For now I will just say that there are plenty of diverse genetic make-ups that persist even though they may not be beneficial, like dyslexia, diabetes, schizophrenia, etc. If it doesn't kill you or make you unable to reproduce, a gene will persist in the population. There might be advantages to all these things, in some future situation that we haven't foreseen, or they might just be pesky vestiges of some past mutation that just keep coming along for the ride. Sickle-celled anemia, for instance, is obviously bad, but if you have just one rather than both genes for the Sickle-celled condition, you have a natural immunity to malaria. The world is complicated, but so interesting to try to figure out!

[Fresia]

Excellent thread.
Bump it up!