Boys will be boys? [Archive]

Skater Boy

Jun 6, 2007, 2:51 PM

Here's the question: How do you deal with extreme homophobia?

Basically I study in a workshop environment (think woodwork, tools, dirty aprons and messy hands). Now the guys that study with me are are pretty much as straight as they get (as far as I can tell). For them, homophobia is a way of life... its "fag" this, "poof" that, "queer" this, "bender" that pretty much non-stop. I mean, I'm not sure some of them even THINK about what they are saying... its just comes to them as second nature.

Now, if I'm being completely honest, this sort of thing gets to me. Its not really directed at me (because I don't think they know yet ;) ), but it still gets to me... it just wears me down.

I could tell them the truth (for all I know they may suspect as much), but I'm just wondering if that will make things worse, because they'll treat me "differently", and feel that the can't be themselves around me.

Anyway, I suppose I can live with a bit of homophobia... after all, I pretty much grew up in a straight environment, and most of my friends have been/are straight, and some of them had similar attitudes.

But obviously there's the more extreme cases to think about:

One of the guys on my course is known to have witnessed a physical assualt on a gay man (merely for the fact that he was gay). And is reported to have given the man "a kicking" afterwards, when he was still down on the ground.

Now, I know that a wise man once said: "We despise most in others, that which we fear in ourselves". And in some cases that is true.

But it doesn't really make my situation any easier, does it? I mean would you come out to bunch of guys like the ones I'm referring to? I'd like to be able to win them over, but I'm not really convinced that its possible for me.

Hehe, I guess I'm not sure its in my best interests to tell them the complete truth. I suppose the good thing is that I only have a month or so left to work with them, then we can go our seperate ways...

Any thoughts?

mike9753

Jun 6, 2007, 3:35 PM

Dear Skater:

I have found that if I react to "man's inhumanity to man" in a way that is non-judgmental to those who are judgmental - in other words, telling them that they can believe and act any way they want, but that I would appreciate them not sharing their discriminatory, derogatory, nasty characterizations in my presence. I am careful to do this on a one-to-one basis - not in a group. If there is a discussion following my statement/request I will tell them that I think those attitudes breed hatred and we could all do with a lot less hatred in today's world.

It does not always work, but more often than not it stimulates a little thoughtful introspection for those capable of insight.

If we say nothing in the face of hatred, we agree by default that it's OK, when it is despicable.

However, having said that, you have to chose your own words - words that slide off your tongue easily. Don't make a big deal of it, and it is not necessary to reveal to them your personal orientation, but don't stay quiet either.

Another thought comes to mind as well. Be careful that they are not baiting you - waiting for you to commit to an opinion. That is why I make my thoughts known in a one-to-one situation - it's less likely to develop into something bigger and uglier.

Hope that helps,
Mike

Herbwoman39

Jun 6, 2007, 3:36 PM

Since you seem to be required to be there, my advice would be to keep your head down and be as inconspicuous as possible. From the sounds of it, by revealing your bisexuality, you may be placing yourself in physical jeopardy.

My sons use "gay" in regular discussion and I've learned to tune it out.

Normally I would advocate for openness, but it sounds like that would be far too dangerous for you.

Toad82

Jun 6, 2007, 4:53 PM

I went though the same thing and I did come out one at a time. I myself felt a hell of lot better, but at the same time I became "The Freak" to the people I worked with. With that said I would do it again because I felt I wasn't hiding any more. I did lose friends, but I also gained some as well. I believe it to be better to know where I stand than to not.

I came out to the people I worked with because of the two new laws that were passed in Oregon. I was tired of the men I worked with always talking about the faggots on the front page of the newspaper. It worked, they stopped talking about it. On the other hand people I had been friends with for years stopped talking to me and others started to talk about me behind my back. It was the most loneliest time of my life. I didn't think that when I looked around that I would have no friends left, although thats what happened. It did get better and most stopped caring.

If you do try to win them over, protect yourself and be careful.

RJ

Skater Boy

Jun 6, 2007, 5:06 PM

Thanks amigos! The message seems to be to do whatever you feel comfortable doing, but to proceed with caution.

I already lost a few of my other friends when I came out to some of them. Actually, I didn't even have to come out... I just said: I was in touch with my feminine side, when they asked me about something I was wearing and "Bingo!" they didn't call me again. Still, I always say that its better to have just a few GOOD friends than lots of BAD ones.

I'll have a think about what to do regarding my workshop situation. But I have a feeling its best left alone for the moment. One positive thing that happened was that one of the guys there expressed his "appreciation" for Angelina Jolie! Now I don't think he "knows" about her, but it did make me smile for a second. Anyway, its easy for you ladies... I think most straight guys like a bit of girl-on-girl action...

JohnnyV

Jun 7, 2007, 1:13 AM

It seems like what's happening does bother you, and eventually you might blow up out of frustration if you don't say something about it. If you react in the moment to their provocations, then it might get messy and you might say something you'll regret.

I think you should rehearse something to say to them, individually. Don't do it in a group because then they'll all team up on you, and they might get defensive and make you the problem. Just think of a straightforward, non-inflammatory, calm way to say that you think it's not right to use words that describe gay people as insults. You don't have to say you're bi. Maybe say that for you it's just that you want to respect all people. If you want, say that you don't know if there are gay people who might be in earshot, and for their sake you want to be a little toned down.

Even the most homophobic people can be persuaded, in the right conditions, to show some decorum.

J

jedinudist

Jun 7, 2007, 1:41 AM

Skaterboy-

When I came out - I did it in a big way. I let it be known on my art gallery sites, in my Nudist group, etc. Shortly afterwards, I was interviewed by the Washington Blade along with several other Bisexual's. They ran my face shot on the front page.

Googling my name used to bring up about 10 hits that lead to me. Now it brings up literally over 20 pages of links that lead to me. So, I am OUT of the closet.

That being said, there are times when your own personal safety require that you keep your mouth shut and your head down. You have to be the judge.

I don't go around trumpeting my orientation, but I usually do not hide it. I have been told by my gay friends who were shocked to learn I am Bi that I do not register on "gaydar". I have been in situations where revealing my orientation would have placed me in danger and even immediate peril.

My feelings on this is that it's nobodies business unless there is a legitimate reason for it to be. And there is rarely a legitimate reason.

Based on what you have said, I do not think that there is anything to be ashamed of at all in keeping your orientation private. In fact, it sounds like the safest option. Even if you tell only one of these guys, it is highly likely it will quickly become common knowledge and then you have the whole mob to deal with.

Do you really want someone who kicked a man who had been already beaten to the ground for being gay to know that you are Bi?

GalacticiaActual

Jun 7, 2007, 10:23 AM

It's a no-brainer for me... Keep your mouth shut because nothing good could possibly come from it.

diamond_tether

Jun 7, 2007, 12:01 PM

I (the male half of the couple) was raised in the martial arts world of the early 90s. While a lot more progressive than say, the 70s, homophobia was still a big deal. Especially because the people I was around who had negative things to say were fighters. It's generally not wise to provoke people who know how to fight.

Personally, I'd say you're in a similar situation. What worked best for me was avoidance. Not lying, nor anything else of the sort, just creative illustrations of my points of view. When talking about females I'd chime in when and where I felt like it, and just stayed out of the conversations dealing with homophobic stuff. If asked out right I'd simply remind them that I'd talked about females, which meant I was comfortable enough with my sexuality not to worry about what 'gay guys' are doing. It worked until I was in a position in life where I no longer had to play that game.

Use your best judgement. Provoking people you know will hurt you isn't wise. Especially if you're surrounded by people who are openly talking about violence toward homosexuals (kicking a man while he's down is abhorrent to me). No one should have to lie to save themselves, but adaptation is a human quality. Just learn what you need to do in your situation. And, if it becomes too much and one day you snap - so be it, just be ready to deal with the reprecussions.

Skater Boy

Jun 7, 2007, 2:16 PM

[QUOTE=diamond_tether]Personally, I'd say you're in a similar situation. What worked best for me was avoidance. Not lying, nor anything else of the sort, just creative illustrations of my points of view. When talking about females I'd chime in when and where I felt like it, and just stayed out of the conversations dealing with homophobic stuff. If asked out right I'd simply remind them that I'd talked about females, which meant I was comfortable enough with my sexuality not to worry about what 'gay guys' are doing. QUOTE]

Thanks man, thats pretty much what I have been doing so far! I think I can manage it for another month or so, but there is talk about a further year, so I'm not sure whether to stick around for that long.

I can handle a bit of homophobia... like I said, I grew up in a very heterosexual environment. And the guy who kicks people when they're down doesn't scare me too much... I know he's a weak man really, and the college has rules in place to prevent him from getting to me (physically) at whilst I'm there.

I'd be happy just to play the game, but its the "dishonesty" that bugs me the most, because I feel like I'm lying. The homophobic comments... well, like the title says... "boys will be boys" and ignorant ones at that.

Skater Boy

Jun 21, 2007, 2:29 PM

lol, well, today on the way home another guy from my class asked me:

"So, are you into girls then?"

And I said:

"Yeah. But..." and quickly (yet discreetly) guided the conversation elsewhere.

Well, I guess I didn't LIE, which is something, at least. But I was quite economical with the truth, lol.

Hey, maybe I'll change my user-name to "Judas"... http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/devil25.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

welickit

Jun 21, 2007, 2:52 PM

If I were in the same situation I would be silent for the duration of the class. I would also find new friends with similar interests and orientation. Your woodworking sounds fun, the wife and I both turn exotic hardwoods on our lathes and enjoy it so very much.
What ever you decide to do we both wish you luck.

TaylorMade

Jun 21, 2007, 3:22 PM

dafydd

Jun 21, 2007, 4:22 PM

I work in education, which is as homophobic as you can get. I am out.
My first response is to say: get some balls and be honest for fucks sake. Must people are underestimated and if the guys respect you you could be a positive role model.
My second response is, I totally understand you hesitating not to come out. It's a very difficult decision with many consequences.
But as an out man, i have to say my final conclusion is, if you do not challenge homophobia you are a collaborator in homophobia. I've seen too much the damage homophobia has done to young peoples lives and I believe that any bi/gay person has the repsonsibility to challange it (although it isn't easy), but get some balls....

d :bipride:

Skater Boy

Jun 21, 2007, 4:31 PM

I believe that any bi/gay person has the repsonsibility to challange it (although it isn't easy), but get some balls....

d :bipride:

Yeah, I do see what you mean. Tbh it kinda bugs me that I DON'T stand up for myself in these issues. A positive role model, well... I'm not sure about that... these guys view homosexuality as "a negative thing". In fact, when criticizing something, they will often use homosexuality as a derogatory adjective. I'm not just talking about the trend for youngsters to say "that's GAY!" when belittling something... I'm talking about a deeper and more sincere dislike.

But yes... there's one guy on the forum who quoted another member in saying:

"I'd rather be HATED for what I AM, than LOVED for what I'm NOT".

I think this was actually said by Dolomite (?) but it doesn't change the message. Worth bearing in mind...

biwords

Jun 21, 2007, 4:42 PM

...my final conclusion is, if you do not challenge homophobia you are a collaborator in homophobia.

I find statements like that one -- essentially, "you're with us or you're against us" -- highly manipulative. If you want to go public, go public, but don't feel that you're obliged to do so. You're not.

TaylorMade

Jun 21, 2007, 4:53 PM

I find statements like that one -- essentially, "you're with us or you're against us" -- highly manipulative. If you want to go public, go public, but don't feel that you're obliged to do so. You're not.

I tend to agree. Each of us are in different situations, and cannot afford to do that. The requirement you put forth is off putting to many who want to explore their sexuality, and is no less intolerant than what we're trying to get rid of.

There is no one way to be queer. "If you don't want to, you don't have to", tends to be the creed I live by.

and I'm betting I'm not the only one.

*Taylor*

elian

Jun 21, 2007, 7:43 PM

Yeah, I do see what you mean. Tbh it kinda bugs me that I DON'T stand up for myself in these issues. A positive role model, well... I'm not sure about that... these guys view homosexuality as "a negative thing". In fact, when criticizing something, they will often use homosexuality as a derogatory adjective. I'm not just talking about the trend for youngsters to say "that's GAY!" when belittling something... I'm talking about a deeper and more sincere dislike.

But yes... there's one guy on the forum who quoted another member in saying:

"I'd rather be HATED for what I AM, than LOVED for what I'm NOT".

I think this was actually said by Dolomite (?) but it doesn't change the message. Worth bearing in mind...

Ya know - it's great to be valiant about things dafydd - and the fact that you as a person in the educational system might serve as a role model for others is commendable.

However, if these guys are REALLY full of hate, rage and/or anger and they have a target to focus on when Skater decides to out himself there may not be good consequences.

If it's a place you HAVE to be Skater you might just want to keep a low profile, it sucks - we've all been there .. my orientation still feels like the last "lie" I have in my soul but there are good reasons not to be public about it to all people at all times.

The younger generation seems more open to gender roles, but there are still lots of folks in the world who are bigots.

Unless one of these guys is like your BEST friend and you talk to him individually...err..or you have a tremendous amount of respect or status in the group..

I think it's likely that the "best" thing that will happen in the short term is probably the guys will curb their language around Skater - but that's not going to curb their ATTITUDE..they will only feel awkward about it..and continue to "swear" behind his back.

In the long term, like months or years SOME of them may come to see you as a normal person and maybe change their belief - if they are comfortable with who THEY are (sounds like they're not mature enough for THAT yet).

If they've been brainwashed by religion or parents there's not much you will be able to say AT ALL that will have any impact.

I'm curious why the one guy asked you if you like girls.

My 1.5 cents anyway..like anyone wants to listen.

rayosytruenos

Jun 21, 2007, 8:33 PM

lol, well, today on the way home another guy from my class asked me:

"So, are you into girls then?"

And I said:

"Yeah. But..."

Hmmmm, as Elian said:

I'm curious why the one guy asked you if you like girls.Did he look like interested in you? :bigrin:

DiamondDog

Jun 21, 2007, 8:35 PM

The title of this thread reminds me of when I told a hot leather bear I chat with about how a friend of mine used to work in the ER and how a man came in and had a pencil stuck inside his penis as he was trying to use it as a homemade urethral sound.

My leatherbear friend told me LOL "Boys will be boys!".

I told that story about the guy in the ER with the pencil in his dick to a homo buddhist friend of mine and he told me "Boys will be stupid idiots!"

SkaterBoy-what are the laws in your country about homophobia in the workplace?

I'm not sure what it's like in the UK/Canada but in the US employers/employees can get into trouble if they have a work environment that is racisct, homophobic, sexist, sexual harassment, etc.

If you do decide to say something about your homophobic work environment, don't confront the people directly but go to someone higher up who you know and who likes you as a person and who respects you.

Or you could always write an anonymous letter/email complaining about homophobia and give it to a person higher up.

Also if you think that the people who you work with ARE violent thugs (like the guy that beat up a gay man who you wrote about) DO NOT confront them directly!

elian

Jun 21, 2007, 9:17 PM

Hmmmm, as Elian said:
Did he look like interested in you? :bigrin:

It's possible he might be interested in you..or sense something different. If you've had a decent relationship with him in the past and he's taking the time to pull you aside and ask this one might be a little more understanding

In this case you need to judge whether if you reveal anything to him if he would be likely to use it against you if he was pressured.

-or-

It may have just been that he's straight, and a way for him to bridge the topic if HE is confused by girls and wanted to see if you are just as confused.

Personal relationships can be confusing (notice I didn't say "dating").

In the end you will need to use your own best judgment.

Herbwoman39

Jun 21, 2007, 10:42 PM

But as an out man, i have to say my final conclusion is, if you do not challenge homophobia you are a collaborator in homophobia. I've seen too much the damage homophobia has done to young peoples lives and I believe that any bi/gay person has the repsonsibility to challange it (although it isn't easy),

I'm all for being out, loud and proud but for some people it simply isn't safe. Let me remind you of Mathew Sheppard. He's not the only one. Thousands of LGBT men and women are threatened beaten or worse on a regular basis in this country.

If it isn't safe to be out in the area you live in, then your first responsibility is to keep yourself safe.

FerSureMaybe

Jun 21, 2007, 11:00 PM

Off topic here, but I haven't even heard some of those names for "fags" before. Weird.

I think it's really pounded into their minds as they're growing up. I also notice that boys that are raised w/o a huge male influence tend to be less homophobic, not always, but often. But, I really do think that boys are kind of taught it from a young age, that you have to be all manly, that you can't cry, or be too feminine. But that's just my thoughts.

And other times, I think that there's a lot more gays and bisexuals floating around out there, and they call on that "homophobic" behavoir to counter their own thoughts that they can't accept, thoughts about other men. But yet again, just my thoughts.

12voltman59

Jun 22, 2007, 2:23 AM

It does always get me--that with so many hyper hetero men--they seem awfully hung up on things of a "gay" nature--they constantly make their little comments as you noted nearly all the time---why hell--in the days when I very much identified myself as "straight"--I never had a single thought of homosexuality--I saw no need to make comments on "something being so gay" or "to hell with those queers" or whatever!!!

It does bring to mind the old saying: "thou protests too mucheth" the way these guys seem so obsessed with gayness--and they are the ones who do "manly things in a manly way!!!" and always seem to date plenty of women and the like---

But--thanks to my finally getting "in touch" with this side of myself, as it were, I really think-that just like those preachers who rally against homosexuality--I am willing to bet that these hyper macho/hetero/testosterone laden guys who are so obessed about homosexual stuff must have dreams that they are getting gang banged by train of guys with great big huge cocks and THEY LOVE IT in their dreams and they get thoughts they may actually want to step over to that side of the street--so they have to put a show of being 100 percent straight so no one catches on that what they really want is a cock in their bum and mouth at the same time!!! LOL

Just my :2cents:

elian

Jun 22, 2007, 6:10 AM

I get the impression that these are young teenage boys? In that case they ARE probably still trying to find their own identities - and full of hormones too - and the LAST thing that they want is to be singled out.

That doesn't mean that they are all gay or straight or bi or whatever, but it does mean that perhaps they are on the uncomfortable journey where you take a look at what you know about the world - and then take a look at what the world supposedly "expects" out of you and you have some trouble fitting in.

I took a discussion course at the UU church based on the book "The Gender Knot" - and we talked about being labeled - and what we found out is that there wasn't a single person in the room that LIKED being put in a "male" or "female" box..but it's what society expects - because up until now living was hard so the rules were put in place to promote the continuation of the "village".

Whether or not people are "emotionally satisfied" is a relatively new concept in the way the human world works. If you go back three generations or so - it was more about putting food on the table so you could survive then whether or not you felt bad if a cold breeze blew up your skirt.

I think to some degree we are growing past those old rules now - into what I'm not quite sure - but I know it's making a lot of people uncomfortable.

Skater Boy

Jun 22, 2007, 10:04 AM

It's possible he might be interested in you..or sense something different. If you've had a decent relationship with him in the past and he's taking the time to pull you aside and ask this one might be a little more understanding

In this case you need to judge whether if you reveal anything to him if he would be likely to use it against you if he was pressured.

-or-

It may have just been that he's straight, and a way for him to bridge the topic if HE is confused by girls and wanted to see if you are just as confused.

Personal relationships can be confusing (notice I didn't say "dating").

In the end you will need to use your own best judgment.

Nooooo! this guy is DEFINITELY not "interested in me" in a homosexual way. He may be curious about me in a "platonic way", perhaps. But I think thats as far as it goes. The reason this guy asked me is because out of all of the people in the class, I am closest to him. In fact, he is perhaps the ONLY guy there that I am articularly friendly with. He is fairly young (say 19 years old or so), but quite mature for his age. Whilst he does have some homophobic values too, I would say that he is pretty good at being diplomatic, and I think in a way, he kinda feels sorry for me. Perhaps the thing that made him directly ask the question is because, he is always telling me about his love life... in a normal, blokey sorta way... not unpleasant details or anything, just which girl he's going out with and how the relationship is going, etc, etc. I suspect that he picked up on the fact that I am fairly quiet around these issues about MY OWN activities, and eventually gave in to his natural curiosity about what my situation is.

As for the other guys... well, like I said, they're probably just ignorant boys (even though some over them are slightly older than that). There ARE rules about discrimination (homophobia included) in this sort of education environment. But Tbh, I don't think complaining to the powers that be (as per DD's suggestion) would do much good. If anything, it would just make them change thier LANGUAGE as Elian said, and perhaps even raise their levels of resentment towards me.

No... as it stands, I am "fairly" safe, and free from physical danger. I am able to interact with the other guys on a basic level, so any suspicions they have remain just unconfirmed suspicions. Only a few more weeks of the course to go... might aswell just get on with it, and wait and see what happens next year.

PS: I don't HAVE TO be there, but at the same time I DO. Its a full time education course, which is done by choice by all students. So yes, I could drop out, but hey, then I wouldn't learn what I wanted (and payed to) learn. And IMO unless you're planning on being an air-hostess or a fashion designer you're gonna come across homophobia on some level in pretty much all other areas...

elian

Jun 27, 2007, 5:07 PM

I would stick with it then, only a few more weeks and you've have you coursework done. With a degree/diploma/certification you would have more opportunities to go to a place you can feel better about it.

Just so you know, guys may stop talking about "faggots" but they never stop talking about girls - at least not here in the US.

Do you know how awkward it feels to have to pretend to drool on the floor when the "Hooter's Girls" walk by?

I am attracted to SOME women, but not every one that walks by with the single qualification of a big rack. It usually has a lot more to do with personality, demeanor, etc. I grew up around women so I've only ever really wanted to reach out and seriously grope a few of them.

Same thing with guys - but het. guys - like you say - they seem to have to make it a point to comment on EVERY lady that walks by - as if they didn't someone might think they were "weird" or something.

It has a lot more to do with maturity level too - apparently in your current situation there is none..hopefully when you apprentice or whatever you will find some folks a bit more mature.

..oh..now I'm getting horny .. drat..all the cute HVAC techs that come to the house are always married <grumble grumble>

Skater Boy

Jun 28, 2007, 12:35 PM

LOL, Thanks Elian... I understand what you're saying.

In an interesting "twist" to the situation, the guy who asked me (whether I was into girls) invited me to a barbeque recently. I couldn't think of a decent excuse not to go, so I tagged along.

It was a typical "hetero event"... lots of beer-drinking, steak cooking and casual chat about "hetero things".

I think I got through the night pretty well... I handled myself ok, and didn't give anyone cause to question my position within the group. Thats something that I'm becoming increasingly good at... I believe its called "SA" (Straight Acting).

There was a slight element of risk/danger involved, but not serious enough to warrant major concern. Again, I think my main problem with it all was the dishonesty. But I guess as long as those I choose to tell know who I really am, then it doesn't matter so much about a few casual acquaintances.

hudson9

Jun 28, 2007, 4:17 PM

There is a difference between "coming out" and objecting to homophobic/hateful speech or attitudes. If we let hateful speech or acts go unanswered, we are complicit in them. That doesn't mean one has to be confrontational. Sometimes a simple "I don't agree with that" is sufficient.

To take a lesson from recent history in the U.S. -- the Civil Rights movement only got strong when 2 things finally happened:

1 - Black people were no longer afraid to say "this isn't right"
2 - White people were no longer afraid to say "this isn't right"

JoyJoyHollywood

Jun 28, 2007, 4:46 PM

Anyway, its easy for you ladies... I think most straight guys like a bit of girl-on-girl action...[/QUOTE]

My advise is simply not too. I've noticed that in a work environment a bit of personal seperation is good to maintain a level of respect that you need to move ahead and also keep some authority.

And as for it being easier for a girl.....I can't agree with that. Where I live I am surrounded by A LOT of people who were raised in an environmnet that continually disregards the welfare and safety of women and also their basic human rights. They will not see my sexuality as a simple matter of my tast. There is a rather large chance that they will see it as an admission of promiscuity and lack of morality. Which could quite possibly put me in the very disagreeable position of a good ol' fashion gang rape or down home murder. Which also sometimes happens to young men around here too when a group of (expletive) think that they have the moral authority and the right to correct homosexual behavior by endulging in their very sick, represed and diseased brand of punishment.

dafydd

Jun 28, 2007, 5:26 PM

I'm all for being out, loud and proud but for some people it simply isn't safe. Let me remind you of Mathew Sheppard. He's not the only one. Thousands of LGBT men and women are threatened beaten or worse on a regular basis in this country.

If it isn't safe to be out in the area you live in, then your first responsibility is to keep yourself safe.

I understand, but I would take a punch for the right to have cock anyday. I really would. And I would be beaten and trodden on, and abused and assaulted *and* most importantly I would fight the fuckers back and give as good as I got. I am sick of this victim mentality. And if you don't feel you can do it physically, do it legally. Skater Boy, in the UK there are the Sexual Orientations 2003 which prohibit discrimination or harrassment on the grounds of sexual orientation in the workplace. Go to your boss, and if s/he doesn't agree involve your union. Hell, I have a tribunal coming up next month.

I totally understand peoples' reservations with challenging homophobia, it is a complex issue, but we have all got to get to a point where we are not afraid anymore. This is not a 'with us or against us' comment as so succinctly pointed out before. That's just flippant. This is a call to arms.

D

AstroGlide

Jun 28, 2007, 5:35 PM

Years ago during my travels as a professional bass fisherman, I had the occasion to stop in a roadside diner for an early dinner near the Texas state line in Louisiana. There were several pickups parked there along with a few cars so I felt pretty good about stopping with my boat.
As I got seated in a booth, I noticed that there was an obvious aregument going on in the back with several guys engaging in a sharp conversation with a single guy who was apparently trying to keep up with his own.
One of the guys hollered, "you f**kin faggot" and slammed the single guy across the mouth with his fist.
This was in the days before cell phones and I sat there and figured that surely someone would come and rescue the single guy. Or at least help him off the floor.
The waitress came and calmly took my order and I asked her what was going on. She told me that the single guy had, according to the gang, tried to look at one of their privates while in the men's room and it had started then.
Needless to say, the single guy was having trouble getting off the floor because everytime he tried to get up, he was either kicked or punched again until he just laid there and didn't move.
I started to get up and at least try and help the single guy out but the waitress put her hand on my chest and told me, "no one, but no one, helps queers down here."As they drug the single guy out of the diner, the leader looked directly at me and told me, " I saw you get up, you want some?"At about this time, the waitress intervened and told the 'leader' that I was not part of this and to leave me alone. That was fine with me. I excused myself and without waiting for my food, I left just as they were dragging the single guy out to the back of the diner. I drove until I found a phone in a gas station and reported this to the local law enforcement. The attendant started giggling when I explained some of the details I had overheard and told me that the sheriff didn't like'em either.. I drove all the way back to Houston and never once stopped thinking about how much some people hate, I really mean, hate, anyone that is remotely different than someone else and will take offense at the drop of a hat even at a different opinion.
I think that is some of the reason that so many are in the closet and refuse to come out. They just remember how it was, is, and will always be regardless of the safeguards the government has put into place regarding discrimination and hate crimes.
Just my two cents....
Astro

Skater Boy

Jun 28, 2007, 6:00 PM

There is a rather large chance that they will see it as an admission of promiscuity and lack of morality. Which could quite possibly put me in the very disagreeable position of a good ol' fashion gang rape or down home murder. Which also sometimes happens to young men around here too when a group of (expletive) think that they have the moral authority and the right to correct homosexual behavior by endulging in their very sick, represed and diseased brand of punishment.

Ya, I know some places have it worse than others... I did see the film "Boys Don't Cry" with Hilary Swank, but I tried to dismiss most of it as a work of fiction. I just know that if 2 girls decided to "get it on" round here, most guys would not complain much, especially if they got to watch.

But the truth of the matter is that EVERYONE here is right... YES there are some SERIOUSLY old-school attitudes to homosexuality out there. But Daffyd and the others are right that these NEED to be challenged somehow. I guess the way I see it, there's "aggressive" action (eg. militantism... think Malcolm X) and "peaceful" action (think Martin Luther King). And much as I hate to say it, I think change often occurs most pragmatically when a combination of the two are used. I also think a certain "unity" is essential... if straight people are prepared to gang-up on sexual minorities, then the minorities need to get together and defend themselves... some might say "by any means necessary", and others would disagree.

Anyway, I can see its ending up as "Us Vs. Them" again, so I'll leave it there. But Machiavelli DID say that it was "safer to be feared than loved", and whilst I'd always opt for love if given the choice, I guess sometimes a bit of fear is a big part of "respect".

:2cents:

dafydd

Jun 28, 2007, 6:10 PM

But Daffyd and the others are right that these NEED to be challenged somehow. I guess the way I see it, there's "aggressive" action (eg. militantism... think Malcolm X) and "peaceful" action (think Martin Luther King). And much as I hate to say it, I think change often occurs most pragmatically when a combination of the two are used. I also think a certain "unity" is essential... if straight people are prepared to gang-up on sexual minorities, then the minorities need to get together and defend themselves... some might say "by any means necessary", and others would disagree.

:2cents:

ATEOTD- you have got to come to terms Skater Boy. What is more important? Your job...or being who you truly are? Both ideas are totally valid. Which is more important to you? Can you get another job elsewhere?
Can your colleagues learn to accept you? Can you change things? Can you live yourself in denial?

d

Skater Boy

Jun 28, 2007, 6:38 PM

Can your colleagues learn to accept you? Can you change things? Can you live yourself in denial?

Dave, I hear what you're saying. I asked a few people a question recently, and that question was this:

Is it better to be HATED for what you ARE, than LOVED for what you're NOT.

In other words, should one be honest and disliked, or dishonest and liked.

The answers ppl gave me varied greatly, and these were all from self-confessed Bisexuals. Some even decided against answering the question altogether.

The majority of ppl answered the question on a simplistic level and said they'd rather be hated and honest than loved and dishonest. perhaps to maintain a sense of integrity.

However, a few people said they would rather progress in life, even if that meant being dishonest.

personally, my opinion is divided. I believe that I should be honest with those who I care for or whose opinion I value... ie. my true friends.

For my "enemies" I tell them whatever I see fit.... the aim is to achieve my objectives at all costs. If that means "mirroring" their values whilst around them, and fooling them into thinking that I am "one of them", then so be it. I can handle lying to them if I feel its in MY best interests.

Casual acquaintances... well, I test the waters, and if I think its suitable for swimming, I dive in.

Please don't confuse my strategy with "selling out" or being dishonest merely out of cowardice. To say that I'm NEVER honest about my sexuality is simply not true.

The threat of physical danger is often a real one. But guess what, I can handle myself in a fight. However, I would feel more confident about challenging homophobia in potentially dangerous situations if I had the un-wavering support of the rest of the community. if that means physically fighting (although obviously only as a last resort) then IMO that is what needs to be done.

BUT, my view is that when you're in a position that means you're at a strategic DISADVANTAGE, then you should opt for a NON-DIRECT form of action against your opponent. Sun Tzu says: "The wise warrior never fights a battle he knows he can't win", and in this situation you have to look at the alternatives. there are various alternatives, so I won't go into them right now.

Anyway, I just wanted to illustrate that "macho bravado" approach has its moments, but is NOT ALWAYS the wisest route to achieving whatever it is you set out to achieve.

dafydd

Jun 28, 2007, 7:24 PM

Please don't confuse my strategy with "selling out" or being dishonest merely out of cowardice. To say that I'm NEVER honest about my sexuality is simply not true.

The threat of physical danger is often a real one. <snip>

BUT, my view is that when you're in a position that means you're at a strategic DISADVANTAGE, then you should opt for a NON-DIRECT form of action against your opponent. Sun Tzu says: "The wise warrior never fights a battle he knows he can't win", and in this situation you have to look at the alternatives. there are various alternatives, so I won't go into them right now.

I understand, but if you're decision is motivated out of cowardice (no matter how you try and justify yourself) then it is the wrong decision. How do you know that one of your "homophobic" colleagues is not himself struggling with homosexuality. Perhaps you could be a role model, who knows unless you stand up? I ask the question again....what is more important? your job or you being who you are?

dx with love, and not wanting to provoke, because ur a cool guy

d

Skater Boy

Jun 28, 2007, 8:01 PM

Daffyd, thanks for having the balls to say this stuff because 99% of the people here are in the "just keep quiet" camp, even if it IS just out of cowardice! Tbh, IF ALL Bi/Gay people had your fighting spirit, I would probably be more forthcoming about my sexuality. You seem like the kinda guy who can be depended on in such a situation, and IMO that counts for a lot... I'm honestly pleased to have made your acquaintance on this website.

What is more important, my job or my sexuality? Hmm, I dunno... Money is pretty damn important to me!!! Not saying my current education course will make me a millionaire, but a good career is a valuable thing. And if given the choice between money and sex, I would choose money BECAUSE money can buy you sex, but sex cannot always get you money. If you have money, the opportunity to indulge your sexual desires will often present itself in due course. Whereas there are not many hot chicks hanging out at the Job Centre.

To be stuck working at McDonalds (abeit openly bisexual) would not be my idea of fun... especially since you've got a bunch of other straight folk flippin' burgers next to you wondering why you're "a bit camp" and most likely a bossy straight manager expecting you to mop the toilets.

Don't get me wrong, I don't wanna be an air-hostess, hairdresser or fashion designer. But life at the VERY bottom is tough... especially when you belong to a minority group. I doubt the folk at McD's would be as tolerant and enlightened as the ppl on this forum. And besides which... I don't like the uniform! ;) :bigrin:

I guess I value my sexuality fairly highly. but I just don't feel the need to make others accept it... as long as I myself have accepted it, then thats the main thing.

I do take your point about cowardice though... I think its important (even if not exposing my true self) not to be silent and allow others to get away with saying/doing things they shouldn't... I think maybe that would be the best place to start for me.

Thanks again for all your advice!

JoyJoyHollywood

Jun 28, 2007, 9:05 PM

Listen, I've got to say something here-why do I have to tell someone who I barely know besides a passing involvement anything personal about myself? Why? What do I care if they know or don't know?

I don't really know the people I work with. And you know what? They don't care. They come in for a few hours, they do what they have to.....and then they leave. They don't think about me when they are at home scratching themselves and watching t.v.. They think about their own lives-not mine.

Why can't I just tell the people that I care about instead of everyone I know? I'll tell my manager, who also happens to be my mentor, but I don't see why the secretaries in my department have to know. So they think that I'm straight because I slapped a few male toushies around the Administation.

Do I really want to tell a woman who is so moralistic about life that she would rather die during her next pregnancy than take birth control that I like to fondle naked women? Who cares? She is better off-if she says anything about me my department will come down on her like a ton of bricks and I'm better off because I don't have to deal with a worker who is so distracted by the inner hen having it's proverbial hissy fit that she can't even manage to do what I have to get her to do?

What good does having a problem with my department have to do with anything? Why should I tell a bunch of (expletive) who are going to make my life hell by harassing me about it? Why should I create disharmony in my work?

Why can't I just rail them when they say something offensive instead? Why can't I just make their lives hell for a bit of time while allowing myself freedom from harassment? Why should I make my life hell to make their life hell, when instead I can make their lives hell while sitting back and enjoying the show?

Why should we just volunteer our personal lives to anyone who at five o'clock becomes a virtual stranger?

Listen, I know it sucks to have to sit back and grin and bear it when someone says something so offensive to you that you can feel the hair at the back of your neck curling up, I know how it feels better than most, but hey, you like Niccolo Machiavelli? Then listen to what he would tell you-never give up your position of power, the upper hand because of a temporary situation. Wait. Play it smart. Don't hurt yourself in order to curb another.

Your smart. You could say things to these guys that would leave their scrotum floating somewhere in the back of there throats. Blister their ears blue if they do something offensive or go to your manager and get them to rail them for you. But you don't have to tell anyone anything about yourself in any situation besides arrest if you don't feel comfortable doing so. That's a right that you were born with.

You want change? You want to make a difference? Then do it cutie. Sic em' boy. Yell, scream, stomp your feet, raise your fist-but you don't have to tell them a single thing about yourself. That's the beauty of the relative democracies that we live in. We can create change, we can affect this world, we can do the right thing-an ability many people aren't allowed on this planet. And we don't have to endanger our lives or our safety when we do it. You don't owe the world the reason why you care-the fact that you even do in the first place is enough.

Skater Boy

Jun 29, 2007, 2:00 PM

LOL, you're pretty funny JJH! And smart! I like the way you're too polite to swear and use "(expletive)" instead, haha. yeah, you should really create yourself a profile ad and maybe add some photos.

Thanks for sharing your views, I pretty much agree with everything you've said.

dafydd

Jun 29, 2007, 7:59 PM

I guess I value my sexuality fairly highly. but I just don't feel the need to make others accept it... as long as I myself have accepted it, then thats the main thing.

Think again. If you were black and suffered from racism, you would have no qualms in calling for acceptance. Homophobia is supported by, in part, by self-hating. You have no every right to call for their acceptance.
The legislation section on this website provides a brief outline of the major UK equality legislation. Links to the full statutory instruments and various sources of guidance are provided.

There are currently 6 strands to the framework of UK equality legislation:

1. Sex
2. Race
3. Disability
4. Sexual Orientation **
5. Religion & Belief
6. Age

This framework of discrimination legislation is part of a move towards a consistent approach to discrimination law.
You have every right not to feel harrasses for your sexuality.

d

:2cents:

rissababynta

Jun 29, 2007, 8:33 PM

Skater Boy

Jun 29, 2007, 8:36 PM

AAAAAAAAAAAARGHHH!!! :eek:

I'm stuck between two arguments... JoyJoy has summed up one side of it fairly well. And Dafydd is making some very relevant points on the other.

The truth is, I don't know which side to pick... my gut instinct goes the Machiavellian approach. But Dave is possibly right that cowardice (thats quite a strong-sounding word... maybe "caution" is better) is probably playing at least SOME part in our motives.

I certainly don't feel the need to explain myself to everyone I meet. But at the same time, some of the greatest advances in civil rights have come from people being brave enough to take a stand against bigotry and prejudice on many levels.

I'll need to think about this one...

dafydd

Jun 29, 2007, 8:42 PM

i have never heard of a straight person feeling the need to tell everyone they know that they are straight just because someone happens to be talking about it. i guess it should go the same way for gays and bisexuals.

Yeah and that's because we live in a heterosexist world. Heterosexism is the assumption that we are all straight until proven otherwise. If we are not proactive and visible, nothing changes. You think the Black movement would have kickstarted if Rosa Parks hadn't sat down on that bus one day?
Nobody jokingly slags of heterosexuals in the context of a day at work, but we as bis/gays are dying of a thousand paper cuts every day. If you don't say something, or stand up, then you can't complain. Show, don't tell. Challenging stereotypes and affecting social change starts with being yourself, and that means confronting any prejudice head on.

d

Skater Boy

Jun 29, 2007, 9:05 PM

If we are not proactive and visible, nothing changes. You think the Black movement would have kickstarted if Rosa Parks hadn't sat down on that bus one day?
Nobody jokingly slags of heterosexuals in the context of a day at work, but we as bis/gays are dying of a thousand paper cuts every day. If you don't say something, or stand up, then you can't complain. Show, don't tell. Challenging stereotypes and affecting social change starts with being yourself, and that means confronting any prejudice head on.

Yep its sad but true. I guess the question FOR ME is what the best way of "representing" is. Is it to stand up for Gay/Bi rights (including objecting when those rights are violated on a daily and casual basis). or is it to achieve my objectives and thereby become a "successful" member of the bisexual community.

Tbh, I think its a toss up between my own interests and those of the Gay/Bi community as a whole.

I guess I consider myself "an individual" first, and "a bisexual" second, so if I were to make a snap-decision, I'd have to be selfish and choose my own interests... I guess life's too short not to live for yourself.

But that said, I do have love for my peeps too... so like I said, I'll have to have think about what the best course of action is.

Lorcan

Jun 30, 2007, 12:09 AM

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.

Those aren't my words. But I believe them.

JoyJoyHollywood

Jun 30, 2007, 2:50 AM

Think again. If you were black and suffered from racism, you would have no qualms in calling for acceptance. Homophobia is supported by, in part, by self-hating. You have no every right to call for their acceptance.
The legislation section on this website provides a brief outline of the major UK equality legislation. Links to the full statutory instruments and various sources of guidance are provided.

There are currently 6 strands to the framework of UK equality legislation:

1. Sex
2. Race
3. Disability
4. Sexual Orientation **
5. Religion & Belief
6. Age

This framework of discrimination legislation is part of a move towards a consistent approach to discrimination law.
You have every right not to feel harrasses for your sexuality.

d

:2cents:

There are people like me, with the experiances I have or not, who have found a way (by luck, by opportunity or choice) to live "normal" 9 to 5, who can make a living in that sense that they can support their own and themselves while still having the freedom of never mentioning or expressing themselves and the face of their sexuality and their pesonal natures-and still be getting a paycheck in the mail every week...I can say this about them and I... they can effect change in their own social group and their own nation. And we don't have to demand they endanger themselves by mentioning their own sexualities. They do not have to do it to make the world a better place at expense of their income, so why do we demand it of them? For sacrifice? (Expletive) soldier, a body won't do you no good, a living person will!

We can effect change. I say this only because I've seen it. And, I've been able to do it. Without exposing myself to persecution. Yes, I have. How? I used the position of my authority to educate those who could not deny me (because of my authority) the truth about what it means to be human. And it did make an impact.

I say this. It is very easy to take the money that we use to eat, to find shelter, even safety, wrong. When you, after a few years of failing, can finally be able to provide for yourself and your own, you begin to realize the precarious position that you inhabit. If you fail, if you (expletive) up, then you aren't the only one to suffer. You take many down on your overly passionate path to embetter the world without caution. You take those who depend on you down with you.

And the really ridiculous part is... we can effect major change without exposing our position. A few words of censure. A few minutes spending time making an ignorant (word for a mule)-hole's life hell and that will make them stop for a second and re-think what they consider to be logic...than how can we ignore this path?

Because it feels good for a second of open fighting?

So, in face of what people have to loose to fight openly, exposing their positions, how can we ask anyone to do so?

Especially when an easier, more effective path is open to them?

Because it feels good to engange in open battle?

I say to that...ha. In open battle, you're too afraid that you won't live to see the next day that you will remember any goodness of the fight that you may be able to win. That is what passionate battle, the battle of the very young or free's fight really is. A battle without loss

And that is why the rest of us may prefer to engage in battle when we know we can win, or when we know it does not matter if we loose.

(Expletive) doesn't our sexuality mean that we really love every one equally? That we can see things in a way no one alse can? Isn't that our unique gift, to ourselves and others? Differences don't reach us the way it does others? That we are in fact such in a unique position of humanity that we can tell when we love something (a member of our same or different sex, of our family, even a friend) and decide not be driven by absoluteness, to make a choice based on our hearts, not our moral preconceptions? Doesn't our sexuality in fact go beyond what we are able or willing to lay and touch the way we see and inhabit the world? Are we, in fact, not just a group driven by our sexuality, but on the power of our existence? An existence that fundamentally may not be driven by it's sexuality, but possibly by it's perception of the world at large? Are we so distracted one part of our natures, that we ignore the possibilities of all of it? A nature that can literally love everyone? That we can understand?

How can any of us, considering those with lives so very different than ours, demand that they do what may come to a select few of us naturally? To risk it all. We (I have noticed even in this short time) continually ask each other in this forum for nothing else than acceptance. How can we demand something of each other without any forethought of how they live? How can we demand something without any thought to what to what it would mean to the person that is next to us, so much the same, but so very different? How can we demand acceptance without accepting?

dafydd

Jun 30, 2007, 5:18 AM

Because it feels good for a second of open fighting?

It doesn't feel good to fight. I was shaking inside when I hauled up my boss for calling me a mincer, but I would feel even worse if I didn't say anything.

I am not advocating raising your fists to a bunch of homophobic thugs in a dark alley, but most of the time it is the same fear that stops people from saying anything in everyday situations e.g. a comment in the coffee shop, a hand gesture in the staffroom etc. Most of the time people who challenge homophobic find the reaction isn't as bad as they think. In a workplace it's not about life and death to challenge homophobia. Let's be realistic. Skater Boy wasn't talking about challenging members of the neighbour hood gang (not nec. a good idea), he was talking about his colleagues.

d
:bipride:

elian

Jun 30, 2007, 10:14 AM

Oh you are right about the self-hating part dafy - my entire life has been hell - I literally am a survivor .. But now, years later I've got nothing to worry about - shelter, food, enough money to take care of an emergency - so why do I have to sit here and probe and search, and wonder just how happy I might be in situation A vs. situation B? I must be a coward -a person who is more mentally balanced would probably have invested time in a wife and kids by now - but no - I'm afraid, and selfish.

I should be outside living my life - it's a beautiful day - and yet here I am like a moth drawn to a flame..I hate myself for spending 12 hours a day on the computer (I work IT tech support).

It's funny God says to me "Go out and live - you are my son" (which I still can't quite come to terms with because a lot of the things I do sure FEEL feminine in the eyes of society) - but he's very adamant about that.

Here I sit trying to prove to myself that I am worthy to be here. And when another guy comes up to me in chat and says "Hi, ASL?" - somehow I feel like a slut.

This isn't being human, I keep telling myself not to worry about labels - now - if I could only convince myself that it REALLY doesn't matter.

I'm logging off now - I need to go for a walk.