to youse guys out dere in da USof A?

[the mage]

A question to my American friends....

Admittedly brought on by (shame..) Oprah and M. Moore...

Have you actually read your medical insurance contract??

Are you really as covered as you think?

I'm a proud Canadian all the way and have had to use the health system quite a lot here. Despite many complaints you hear I've always had confidence in knowing that timely care is in fact available with no profit motive in place.

The all for one, one for all, concept of the system for something as basic who determines whether or not you get to live seems eminently fair.

Agree?? or No??

[flexuality]

Being a Canadian married to an American, we have had numerous conversations about the medical systems in the 2 countries.

The first thing that comes to mind is that Canadians tend to greatly misunderstand the American medical system. I was one of those.

Americans tend to misunderstand the Canadian medical system as well, but not to qiote the extent that we misunderstand theirs.

I was brought up being told that the American medical system was horrible and people died if they didn't have coverage, and if they got sick they would lose everything, especially if it was something serious requiring long term care, and that elderly people were just plain out of luck cuz most of them were on social assistance and couldn't afford insurance...etc...etc....

I just naturally assumed that the Canadian system was far better.

What I have learned is that it's not like that at all.

Personally, I think that it's been a lot of propaganda on the part of Canadians to keep the medical system up here government run.

20 or 30 years ago, the Canadian medical system worked...now it doesn't work so well....and the more the population increases, the worse it gets.

The question in Canada has become "are you really as covered as you think?" And more and more the answer is becoming "NO."

With a goverment run medical plan, when the answer is NO, then there is no option, and we pay for medical insurance just like the Americans do....except in the US, there is choice....up here there is none.

As far as "The all for one, one for all, concept of the system for something as basic who determines whether or not you get to live seems eminently fair." goes.....Americans don't go around just letting people die if they don't have insurance.

[Solomon]

there's no one insurance contract in the U.S. that i'm aware of.... except perhaps through a social help program

and it is U.S. law that hospitals aren't allowed to refuse treatment based on ability to pay.... although they usually do their best to encourage payment prior to treatment

[JohnnyV]

I don't understand the Canadian system very well. I am inclined to think that it gets overly romanticized by people in the United States, but still, universal health care is something I wish America had.

In the United States, it is exceedingly difficult to generalize about health care because it totally depends on how good your insurance is. I have been in HMOs that were awful, including one that refused to pay for a simple test to see if I had testicular cancer; the doctors at the clinic were convinced that because I was bisexual, I must be having too much sex and that's why my testicles hurt so badly! I switched carriers on January 1, 1998, to a better carrier, which would pay for the combination of ultrasound, blood test, and scan. On January 6, I found out that I had a highly malignant tumor and it had to be removed immediately or would metastasize. So basically within one week I went from one health plan which would have killed me, to another health plan that saved me from a severely malignant tumor.

When people in the United States talk about the status of our health system, they almost always adapt their opinion to their personal situation. If their employer gives them a great plan and they are fairly healthy anyway, they will rave about American medicine and skewer the proponents of universal health care as Communists and French extremists.

If, however, they are one of the sizable minority who don't have health care, or they are stuck with a shitty plan that leaves them constantly dishing out big bucks for lousy treatment -- and most importantly, if they have health problems and are therefore struggling to make sense of an expensive and byzantine bureaucracy (as I faced when I had cancer) -- they will generally be critical of American medicine and will advocate some kind of change, ranging from universal health care to stronger incentives for employers, to a "patient bill of rights", to caps on drug retail costs. The nuances tend to vary with the severity of the person's situation.

I've never spoken to a young, healthy person with a great health plan and heard him or her say, "American health care is awful." Of course they wouldn't say such a thing; there is no occasion to.

I've never spoken to a sick person or anyone needing severe treatment, who has found it hard or impossible to pay for everything, and heard him or her say, "oh, it's great in America. I don' think we need to change a thing."

So to summarize, we can't generalize much about American care, other than to say that some people find it awesome and for others, it sucks.

Love,
J

[The Cheshire Cat]

"Americans don't go around letting people die if they can help it" Oh, yes, they do. This is why so many without insurance go to emergency-they have to take you. But, for the follow ups after emergency-if you can't pay...You are screwed. I have been living this nightmare for the last few years. Not for me, but for a loved one.

[sammie19]

My girl friends cousin is a Doctor in Canada. He also for a while worked in the US system so he knows a little about both, and of course he did his training over here.

Did you know that health bills are the largest single reason that people go bankrupt in the United States, or that 16% of all Americans have no health insurance, and that they come bottom of the league when it comes to provison of health care in the western world. They have the highest infant mortality rates, the highest rates for premature death in the 20-30 age group and that life expectancy is 7 years behind the top industrialised nations who have Universal Health care (although just ahead of the UK interestingly).

The US has a fabulous emergency care system which any country should envy. It is what happens after which is where problems lie, especially if your insurance runs out, or you are unable to afford any. Here people die, and that is an indictment of the system. People die because of inadequacies in our system too, but not because they cant afford health care, but because health trusts prioritise who and why people are treated, and because of pressure of resources.

Neither system is perfect but it is better for the health of a nation to have a universal health care system than one which has the currency of the realm as its motivating influence.

The US spends 15% of its wealth on health and yet it is only 37th in its ranking of health care sytems around the world. Contrast this to the UK which at less than 7% is ranked in the top 10 still.

State provided universal health care has its faults and always will have. The US has many things in its health care system which is superb, but it is not the panacea which many (manly insurance covered) americans believe it to be.

[12voltman59]

i don' know what the answer to our health care coverage problem is--it is certainly a screwed up system.

We have those who so love "the free market" and all of that crap--we don't really have a free market for much of anything, the truth be told--we hate welfare for the little guy, but our corporations are "on the public tit" to an extent that dwarfs the system for the individual.

I do think it is highly incompatible to have health care be in the hands of those whose main mission is to "make a profit" such as public corporations, that by law are required to "maximize return for shareholders' and such. Providing health care coverage to me, seems incongruent with making a profit--and the insurance companies are a bit crazy-they will pay out if you have a heart attack but won't pay for a very good medical program--designed by doctors and provided by a network of hospitals around the country--that is very effective in helping people lose weight and to establish healthy eating and physical fitness behaviors---it is good preventive medicine--but only a handful of insurance companies will pay for the program in the whole country---it only costs a few thousand for the program--a cost that would bel less if more people did it---and that is far less than paying to bring someone into a Cornary Care Unit after they had a heart attack or stroke.


My father in his business--has long provided the best level of insurance coverage for his employees that is affrodable, even when by dong so--he could have bankrupted the business---

Most years he has not had too many claims, but did have a bad year in 2006 due to some folks having some health problems--that made his rates go up-but they do that anyhow, irrespective of how many claims filed by his employees.

My father did note that in the last year--the CEO of his insurance provider had a very good year indeed--pulling down a compensation package worth around $100 million---

My dad figures that much of his rate increase had to go to pay for that guy's nice payment and his kingly lifestyle---

I guess its more important that the CEO gets to buy a Gulfstream G-5 business jet, Bell Jet Ranger hellicopter, a half dozen million dollar mansions around the world and the like than it is to provide good health care to the public.

Here is another way the insurance companies are scamming us--I have family members, friends and neighbors who are doctors--each one of them say that if the insurance companies paid them on time--it would be great but they don't--they play the system for all its worth and string out paying the docs.

I have one neighbor who is a psychatrist-she said one major insurer alone in our area runs about $200,000 behind in paying her what they owe her----the rest do the same thing----

So--could having the government taking care of things be much worse?-I dobut it-----

The system right now--is as we called things that were a mess in the service--one major cluster fuck!!!!

[Azrael]

I'm still in dire financial straits from a Spider Bite a few years ago. Then I had another bill because they screwed up and sent me home on a really weak antibiotic.
It's really luck I get county funded Mental health and get my Seroquel through a program with Astrazeneca.

[Solomon]

just some note worthy differences from up here, the government's also looking for a profit in providing health insurance, they just do it through mandatory premiums and enormous taxes to provide pretty much what's provided in the basic plans in the states, ie... we'll pay for the heart attack, but forget the prescrips, physical rehab, ambulance, or pacemaker

for anything extra on insurance plans up here it's like down in the states... good job = good extras like Short Term Disability, ambulance, prescrips, etc...

i've definately heard Buffet talking about CEO's recently as well, and as i recall he said "It's kind of like the honor system, the shareholders have the honor and the CEO's have the system" lol! I know through the news that the old CEO of Home Depot made friggen killing! $200+ million as a SEVERANCE package!!!! they paid the guy $200+ million to get lost!!! it's absolutely unbelievable..... i agree the right CEO for a business an all, but a fortune to walk away from your job??

i agree in that an ideal solution just escapes me... on the one hand preventative health lifestyle and all is really the best way to go, on the other hand no insurances are going to cough up the dough-ray-me for vitamins, and gym expenses

but the insurances will do everything in their power to turn a profit (yes, even in Canada also) and paying doctor's not on time is one of those tactics..... and they'll turn every trick in the book to avoid paying if they don't hafta, up here also.... our extra insurance told us that only some of the reciepts got lost in the mail, even though we sent it all in one envelope! They finally did pay after we harrassed'em enough lol!

and the doctor's up here are very short-changed, they could make alot more money down in the states.... they're extremely capped on what they can charge, and they pretty much depend on the MSP for a paycheck that depends alot on the volume they see, not how good they are

it's very little wonder that the U.S. Dem's are for a National Health Insurance..... they're doing nothing but looking for a piece of the pie IMHO

[Tommy2020]

I never wanted to see socialized health care in the United States.

Sammie19's comments are right on and convey the doubts/concerns of everyone that I know about the continuing health care crisis here in the land of milk and honey.... (?)

Without going into too much personal detail, I will say that I have had some serious dealings with the health care system on more than one occasion.

I have a close friend, that when he went onto Medicare, his personal doctor's attitude toward him changed from one of personal interest to him seeing the PA more and more and not the doctor he has had for greater than 15 years. And then, finding out that his personal doctor doesn't accept Medicare assignment (due to the inequity he was told) and he has had to scramble for aonther doctor that accepts Medicare assignment. Now, my friend doesn't have a lot of money and the costs of separate insurance to cover what Medicare doesn't cover has been expensive. His health has declined somewhat and he feels like death is immenent from what he describes as 'second best' doctor involvement.

I personally blame the current Bush administration for the mess that we are in now. The Part D gap can cost the consumer upwards and into the thousands of dollars per year depending on the medications he/she takes.

Yes, there are assistance programs for help in paying for medications. I have read the forms that were sent to my friend. They are demeaning, way overly personal, and depressing to read.

And another organization that some of you may not be aware of is the Medical Information Bureau. Look it up on the internet. This organization exists to provide personal health information on individuals for anyone that is willing to pay the price. This organization reeks of wanton destruction for anyone that needs, NEEDS, employment or insurance but that has had previous health issues. They are kind of like, health information brokers for profit. They remind me of maggots fighting over scraps of excrement in the bottom of an outdoor toilet.

Trying to shorten this missive as much as possible, I hope, for everyone's sake and possible suvival out of this hole we are in, that some health care guru can work a plan that will create a workable solution to this current mess and actually help the masses without adequate or any insurance at all. Hopefully, they won't be some damned politician looking to curry votes.

I am sure that some people won't agree with this and that is fine.

Tommy2020 :soapbox:

[Kittengirl]

Or maybe we just have absolutely no interest in Canada period. Period. Period. Or any other country, really.

And for all of you that enjoy trashing the US, you can gladly kiss my red white and blue American sweet ass. And if you bruise it from kissing it too much, don't you worry - I have PLENTY of medical insurance to get it taken care of.

Now go off and smoke one of your Dunhills...

:rotate:

[Azrael]

Respectfully, blind nationalism is for twits.
This was a reasonable discussion.....

[JohnnyV]

i agree in that an ideal solution just escapes me... on the one hand preventative health lifestyle and all is really the best way to go, on the other hand no insurances are going to cough up the dough-ray-me for vitamins, and gym expenses



I recently read an excellent analysis of America's obesity problem that really speaks to what you're talking about, Solomon.

Ironically, the lower income groups in the US who do not have health insurance and are not seeing doctors regularly, are the same people who have the most severe obesity problems. Unlike everywhere else in the world, in America, the poorer you go, the fatter you get.

Now, it is very easy to get judgmental about poor fat people. I've heard people say, "well, the correlation is because laziness breeds both poverty and obesity." I've also heard people say, "why should we as a country devote our taxes to triple bypass surgeries for fat tub-o'-lards who have been stuffing their faces with Kentucky Fried and watching Nascar races in their bloated asses for years?"

The article below, though, from April 22, 2007, New York Times, really shows all the complex sides of the story:

You Are What You Grow
By MICHAEL POLLAN
A few years ago, an obesity researcher at the University of Washington named Adam Drewnowski ventured into the supermarket to solve a mystery. He wanted to figure out why it is that the most reliable predictor of obesity in America today is a person's wealth. For most of history, after all, the poor have typically suffered from a shortage of calories, not a surfeit. So how is it that today the people with the least amount of money to spend on food are the ones most likely to be overweight?

Drewnowski gave himself a hypothetical dollar to spend, using it to purchase as many calories as he possibly could. He discovered that he could buy the most calories per dollar in the middle aisles of the supermarket, among the towering canyons of processed food and soft drink. (In the typical American supermarket, the fresh foods — dairy, meat, fish and produce — line the perimeter walls, while the imperishable packaged goods dominate the center.) Drewnowski found that a dollar could buy 1,200 calories of cookies or potato chips but only 250 calories of carrots. Looking for something to wash down those chips, he discovered that his dollar bought 875 calories of soda but only 170 calories of orange juice.

As a rule, processed foods are more "energy dense" than fresh foods: they contain less water and fiber but more added fat and sugar, which makes them both less filling and more fattening. These particular calories also happen to be the least healthful ones in the marketplace, which is why we call the foods that contain them "junk." Drewnowski concluded that the rules of the food game in America are organized in such a way that if you are eating on a budget, the most rational economic strategy is to eat badly — and get fat.

This perverse state of affairs is not, as you might think, the inevitable result of the free market. Compared with a bunch of carrots, a package of Twinkies, to take one iconic processed foodlike substance as an example, is a highly complicated, high-tech piece of manufacture, involving no fewer than 39 ingredients, many themselves elaborately manufactured, as well as the packaging and a hefty marketing budget. So how can the supermarket possibly sell a pair of these synthetic cream-filled pseudocakes for less than a bunch of roots?

For the answer, you need look no farther than the farm bill. This resolutely unglamorous and head-hurtingly complicated piece of legislation, which comes around roughly every five years and is about to do so again, sets the rules for the American food system — indeed, to a considerable extent, for the world's food system. Among other things, it determines which crops will be subsidized and which will not, and in the case of the carrot and the Twinkie, the farm bill as currently written offers a lot more support to the cake than to the root. Like most processed foods, the Twinkie is basically a clever arrangement of carbohydrates and fats teased out of corn, soybeans and wheat — three of the five commodity crops that the farm bill supports, to the tune of some $25 billion a year. (Rice and cotton are the others.) For the last several decades — indeed, for about as long as the American waistline has been ballooning — U.S. agricultural policy has been designed in such a way as to promote the overproduction of these five commodities, especially corn and soy.

That's because the current farm bill helps commodity farmers by cutting them a check based on how many bushels they can grow, rather than, say, by supporting prices and limiting production, as farm bills once did. The result? A food system awash in added sugars (derived from corn) and added fats (derived mainly from soy), as well as dirt-cheap meat and milk (derived from both). By comparison, the farm bill does almost nothing to support farmers growing fresh produce. A result of these policy choices is on stark display in your supermarket, where the real price of fruits and vegetables between 1985 and 2000 increased by nearly 40 percent while the real price of soft drinks (a k a liquid corn) declined by 23 percent. The reason the least healthful calories in the supermarket are the cheapest is that those are the ones the farm bill encourages farmers to grow.

A public-health researcher from Mars might legitimately wonder why a nation faced with what its surgeon general has called "an epidemic" of obesity would at the same time be in the business of subsidizing the production of high-fructose corn syrup. But such is the perversity of the farm bill: the nation's agricultural policies operate at cross-purposes with its public-health objectives. And the subsidies are only part of the problem. The farm bill helps determine what sort of food your children will have for lunch in school tomorrow. The school-lunch program began at a time when the public-health problem of America's children was undernourishment, so feeding surplus agricultural commodities to kids seemed like a win-win strategy. Today the problem is overnutrition, but a school lunch lady trying to prepare healthful fresh food is apt to get dinged by U.S.D.A. inspectors for failing to serve enough calories; if she dishes up a lunch that includes chicken nuggets and Tater Tots, however, the inspector smiles and the reimbursements flow. The farm bill essentially treats our children as a human Disposall for all the unhealthful calories that the farm bill has encouraged American farmers to overproduce.

To speak of the farm bill's influence on the American food system does not begin to describe its full impact — on the environment, on global poverty, even on immigration. By making it possible for American farmers to sell their crops abroad for considerably less than it costs to grow them, the farm bill helps determine the price of corn in Mexico and the price of cotton in Nigeria and therefore whether farmers in those places will survive or be forced off the land, to migrate to the cities — or to the United States. The flow of immigrants north from Mexico since Nafta is inextricably linked to the flow of American corn in the opposite direction, a flood of subsidized grain that the Mexican government estimates has thrown two million Mexican farmers and other agricultural workers off the land since the mid-90s. (More recently, the ethanol boom has led to a spike in corn prices that has left that country reeling from soaring tortilla prices; linking its corn economy to ours has been an unalloyed disaster for Mexico's eaters as well as its farmers.) You can't fully comprehend the pressures driving immigration without comprehending what U.S. agricultural policy is doing to rural agriculture in Mexico.

And though we don't ordinarily think of the farm bill in these terms, few pieces of legislation have as profound an impact on the American landscape and environment. Americans may tell themselves they don't have a national land-use policy, that the market by and large decides what happens on private property in America, but that's not exactly true. The smorgasbord of incentives and disincentives built into the farm bill helps decide what happens on nearly half of the private land in America: whether it will be farmed or left wild, whether it will be managed to maximize productivity (and therefore doused with chemicals) or to promote environmental stewardship. The health of the American soil, the purity of its water, the biodiversity and the very look of its landscape owe in no small part to impenetrable titles, programs and formulae buried deep in the farm bill.

Given all this, you would think the farm-bill debate would engage the nation's political passions every five years, but that hasn't been the case. If the quintennial antidrama of the "farm bill debate" holds true to form this year, a handful of farm-state legislators will thrash out the mind-numbing details behind closed doors, with virtually nobody else, either in Congress or in the media, paying much attention. Why? Because most of us assume that, true to its name, the farm bill is about "farming," an increasingly quaint activity that involves no one we know and in which few of us think we have a stake. This leaves our own representatives free to ignore the farm bill, to treat it as a parochial piece of legislation affecting a handful of their Midwestern colleagues. Since we aren't paying attention, they pay no political price for trading, or even selling, their farm-bill votes. The fact that the bill is deeply encrusted with incomprehensible jargon and prehensile programs dating back to the 1930s makes it almost impossible for the average legislator to understand the bill should he or she try to, much less the average citizen. It's doubtful this is an accident.

But there are signs this year will be different. The public-health community has come to recognize it can't hope to address obesity and diabetes without addressing the farm bill. The environmental community recognizes that as long as we have a farm bill that promotes chemical and feedlot agriculture, clean water will remain a pipe dream. The development community has woken up to the fact that global poverty can't be fought without confronting the ways the farm bill depresses world crop prices. They got a boost from a 2004 ruling by the World Trade Organization that U.S. cotton subsidies are illegal; most observers think that challenges to similar subsidies for corn, soy, wheat or rice would also prevail.

And then there are the eaters, people like you and me, increasingly concerned, if not restive, about the quality of the food on offer in America. A grass-roots social movement is gathering around food issues today, and while it is still somewhat inchoate, the manifestations are everywhere: in local efforts to get vending machines out of the schools and to improve school lunch; in local campaigns to fight feedlots and to force food companies to better the lives of animals in agriculture; in the spectacular growth of the market for organic food and the revival of local food systems. In great and growing numbers, people are voting with their forks for a different sort of food system. But as powerful as the food consumer is — it was that consumer, after all, who built a $15 billion organic-food industry and more than doubled the number of farmer's markets in the last few years — voting with our forks can advance reform only so far. It can't, for example, change the fact that the system is rigged to make the most unhealthful calories in the marketplace the only ones the poor can afford. To change that, people will have to vote with their votes as well — which is to say, they will have to wade into the muddy political waters of agricultural policy.

Doing so starts with the recognition that the "farm bill" is a misnomer; in truth, it is a food bill and so needs to be rewritten with the interests of eaters placed first. Yes, there are eaters who think it in their interest that food just be as cheap as possible, no matter how poor the quality. But there are many more who recognize the real cost of artificially cheap food — to their health, to the land, to the animals, to the public purse. At a minimum, these eaters want a bill that aligns agricultural policy with our public-health and environmental values, one with incentives to produce food cleanly, sustainably and humanely. Eaters want a bill that makes the most healthful calories in the supermarket competitive with the least healthful ones. Eaters want a bill that feeds schoolchildren fresh food from local farms rather than processed surplus commodities from far away. Enlightened eaters also recognize their dependence on farmers, which is why they would support a bill that guarantees the people who raise our food not subsidies but fair prices. Why? Because they prefer to live in a country that can still produce its own food and doesn't hurt the world's farmers by dumping its surplus crops on their markets.

The devil is in the details, no doubt. Simply eliminating support for farmers won't solve these problems; overproduction has afflicted agriculture since long before modern subsidies. It will take some imaginative policy making to figure out how to encourage farmers to focus on taking care of the land rather than all-out production, on growing real food for eaters rather than industrial raw materials for food processors and on rebuilding local food economies, which the current farm bill hobbles. But the guiding principle behind an eater's farm bill could not be more straightforward: it's one that changes the rules of the game so as to promote the quality of our food (and farming) over and above its quantity.

Such changes are radical only by the standards of past farm bills, which have faithfully reflected the priorities of the agribusiness interests that wrote them. One of these years, the eaters of America are going to demand a place at the table, and we will have the political debate over food policy we need and deserve. This could prove to be that year: the year when the farm bill became a food bill, and the eaters at last had their say.

Michael Pollan, a contributing writer, is the Knight professor of journalism at the University of California, Berkeley. His most recent book is "The Omnivore's Dilemma."
----------------

Love,
J

[darkeyes]

Or maybe we just have absolutely no interest in Canada period. Period. Period. Or any other country, really.

And for all of you that enjoy trashing the US, you can gladly kiss my red white and blue American sweet ass. And if you bruise it from kissing it too much, don't you worry - I have PLENTY of medical insurance to get it taken care of.

Now go off and smoke one of your Dunhills...

:rotate:
Good for you. Glad your sorted. Pity about the 45 million or so of your fellow Americans who dont isnt it???

[darkeyes]

just some note worthy differences from up here, the government's also looking for a profit in providing health insurance, they just do it through mandatory premiums and enormous taxes to provide pretty much what's provided in the basic plans in the states, ie... we'll pay for the heart attack, but forget the prescrips, physical rehab, ambulance, or pacemaker

for anything extra on insurance plans up here it's like down in the states... good job = good extras like Short Term Disability, ambulance, prescrips, etc...

i've definately heard Buffet talking about CEO's recently as well, and as i recall he said "It's kind of like the honor system, the shareholders have the honor and the CEO's have the system" lol! I know through the news that the old CEO of Home Depot made friggen killing! $200+ million as a SEVERANCE package!!!! they paid the guy $200+ million to get lost!!! it's absolutely unbelievable..... i agree the right CEO for a business an all, but a fortune to walk away from your job??

i agree in that an ideal solution just escapes me... on the one hand preventative health lifestyle and all is really the best way to go, on the other hand no insurances are going to cough up the dough-ray-me for vitamins, and gym expenses

but the insurances will do everything in their power to turn a profit (yes, even in Canada also) and paying doctor's not on time is one of those tactics..... and they'll turn every trick in the book to avoid paying if they don't hafta, up here also.... our extra insurance told us that only some of the reciepts got lost in the mail, even though we sent it all in one envelope! They finally did pay after we harrassed'em enough lol!

and the doctor's up here are very short-changed, they could make alot more money down in the states.... they're extremely capped on what they can charge, and they pretty much depend on the MSP for a paycheck that depends alot on the volume they see, not how good they are

it's very little wonder that the U.S. Dem's are for a National Health Insurance..... they're doing nothing but looking for a piece of the pie IMHOSol dear, sometimes you are so funny. In one breath you make a pretty decent case for an American National Health service, and in the next bemoan the fact that in Canada medical practitioners have to work for their paycheck and cant rip off the taxpayer quite as well as Insurance comapnies and their bosses rip of their customers.

And Democrats are going to get their cut of the cake of a state run health service how??? Political parties here dont get a cut of the action here save when they award contracts to their sponsors and mates just as they do in any other line of government business. More a Tory thing than Labour historically, just as its more a Republican thing than Democrat over your way.

Buut that doesnt make a state run health service free at point of entry and decent health care that provides wrong..it simply makes us want to make sure it is got right, in taxpayer and consumers interests. It has to have the checks and balances to make sure it is the best service that taxation can provide, and to make sure that no one makes a killing illegally and/or immorally at your expense.

It isnt perfect for it can never be. But it is a damn sight more perfect than the manner in which the USA "provides" its health care.

It is a fact, that preventative medicine, and other measures taken as preventative are less profitable financially to the drug companies and the insurances companies and other insitutions which are in the private health business. Why else is the USA light years behind more progressive European countries and other nations who have decent State run health services.

Kittengirl's rather silly and foolish outburst about wanting to knock the US at every turn misses an important point. Is it not concievable that when those of us who are not American see an injustice in that country, we care?? We care for our fellow human beings and want to see their lot improved?? Its not being anti american to do that. It is being just as humanitarian as being concerned about famine in Africa, or being concerned with poverty in our own backyard.

[the mage]

Or maybe we just have absolutely no interest in Canada period. Period. Period. Or any other country, really.

And for all of you that enjoy trashing the US, you can gladly kiss my red white and blue American sweet ass. And if you bruise it from kissing it too much, don't you worry - I have PLENTY of medical insurance to get it taken care of.

Now go off and smoke one of your Dunhills...

:rotate:


...................This just make you the classic "ugly amerikan" the world loves to despise...

You didnt even read enough to see that my pro Canadian stance does not make me anti American.

I AM anti "Profit at all cost" as this sociopathic behavior is an obscenity that needs to be addressed.

Please read with care comments made regarding salary levels of corporate executives.....thank you..nuff said...

[Solomon]

Sol dear, sometimes you are so funny. In one breath you make a pretty decent case for an American National Health service, and in the next bemoan the fact that in Canada medical practitioners have to work for their paycheck and cant rip off the taxpayer quite as well as Insurance comapnies and their bosses rip of their customers.

And Democrats are going to get their cut of the cake of a state run health service how??? Political parties here dont get a cut of the action here save when they award contracts to their sponsors and mates just as they do in any other line of government business. More a Tory thing than Labour historically, just as its more a Republican thing than Democrat over your way.

Buut that doesnt make a state run health service free at point of entry and decent health care that provides wrong..it simply makes us want to make sure it is got right, in taxpayer and consumers interests. It has to have the checks and balances to make sure it is the best service that taxation can provide, and to make sure that no one makes a killing illegally and/or immorally at your expense.

It isnt perfect for it can never be. But it is a damn sight more perfect than the manner in which the USA "provides" its health care.

It is a fact, that preventative medicine, and other measures taken as preventative are less profitable financially to the drug companies and the insurances companies and other insitutions which are in the private health business. Why else is the USA light years behind more progressive European countries and other nations who have decent State run health services.

Kittengirl's rather silly and foolish outburst about wanting to knock the US at every turn misses an important point. Is it not concievable that when those of us who are not American see an injustice in that country, we care?? We care for our fellow human beings and want to see their lot improved?? Its not being anti american to do that. It is being just as humanitarian as being concerned about famine in Africa, or being concerned with poverty in our own backyard.

fran, you're looking at this in an apples to oranges comparison. The U.K. has a population of about 60 million in total, with England having about 54 million, and the ratios of medical staffing to population is more than likely much different. Although it would be interesting if you have information on England's numbers in respect to medical personnel.

North America has a population of about 330 + million and the staff's are not the same and the staffing of hospitals, clinics, and doctor's offices are being severly stressed and overworked already in both Canada and the U.S.

The alarming thing about that is there's no relief in sight for this sector in all of N.A., in fact, it's projected to get worse and worse unless something drastic happens soon

and the bottom line of it is supply vs. demand, it's no different with a government run health insurance... all the doctor's up here in Canada get fed up with the caps on their salary and go down to the states where they're pretty much gauranteed all the customers they want and the only caps are in negotiating with insurance companies....

which in turn screws up the medical personnel to population ratios both ways, of course in the U.S. it's not likely to get that much better considering the drastic difference in population size... literally Canada could trade all the medical personnel to the states and it wouldn't do that much for the ratio in the states, but Canada would be hurtin for certain

and seeing as how the insurance companies down in the states varies drastically, they can manipulate how they see the clientelle somewhat in accordance with the insurance co's that pay the best

but you're right on the nose when i seem to flip flop with trying to wrap my head around the issue because it is very complicated, and there's pro's and con's between both system's and all..... it's not much different than a three ring circus :tong:

[Solomon]

I recently read an excellent analysis of America's obesity problem that really speaks to what you're talking about, Solomon.

Ironically, the lower income groups in the US who do not have health insurance and are not seeing doctors regularly, are the same people who have the most severe obesity problems. Unlike everywhere else in the world, in America, the poorer you go, the fatter you get.

Now, it is very easy to get judgmental about poor fat people. I've heard people say, "well, the correlation is because laziness breeds both poverty and obesity." I've also heard people say, "why should we as a country devote our taxes to triple bypass surgeries for fat tub-o'-lards who have been stuffing their faces with Kentucky Fried and watching Nascar races in their bloated asses for years?"

The article below, though, from April 22, 2007, New York Times, really shows all the complex sides of the story:
----------------

Love,
J

That was a great article! It gets even better too when considering the other factor's that are also involved, such as the length of time it takes food to get to the store after it's been taken from the stalk, the longer it takes to be eaten the more nutrition it loses due to time decay and being supplied nutrients via the stalk/ tree..... know the apple a day thing? we store apples in the wharehouse for months all the time! a tomatoe loses like 25-50% nutrition within 30 mins of being picked off the stalk, and in the wharehouse we recieve tomatoes sometimes that have been on the road for a week or more

just how much of a stake the pharmaceuticals have in making us dependant on their medications, if there's a choice between a drug that costs $100 that can cure a disease, and also a drug that costs $1 but only eliminates the symptoms of the disease (say oh..... cancer?), but you need to take the drug that costs $1 for the rest of your life.... which one is a better deal to sell when you're only in it for the money as the investors are? not to mention the influence on the medical industry to influence the way that food's manufactured and all.... wouldn't want people being too healthy now do we?

not to mention industry in itself... which now realizes that people tend to only stay at jobs a maximum of 3-5 years.... so now the employer's are no longer concerned with maintaining an employee's health for the long term, the mantra is now just get back to work as soon as possible....

then there's consumer habits themselves... according to business statics it takes an enormous amount of advertising/ promotion for any single product to have people try it, whereas it takes very little effort at all to maintain the consumers that a product has

and there's more..... but i gotta get to bed sometime lol!

and thanks for that article! i'll be remembering to look more closely at the agriculture bill information when it comes up :cool:

[darkeyes]

fran, you're looking at this in an apples to oranges comparison. The U.K. has a population of about 60 million in total, with England having about 54 million, and the ratios of medical staffing to population is more than likely much different. Although it would be interesting if you have information on England's numbers in respect to medical personnel.

North America has a population of about 330 + million and the staff's are not the same and the staffing of hospitals, clinics, and doctor's offices are being severly stressed and overworked already in both Canada and the U.S.

The alarming thing about that is there's no relief in sight for this sector in all of N.A., in fact, it's projected to get worse and worse unless something drastic happens soon

and the bottom line of it is supply vs. demand, it's no different with a government run health insurance... all the doctor's up here in Canada get fed up with the caps on their salary and go down to the states where they're pretty much gauranteed all the customers they want and the only caps are in negotiating with insurance companies....

which in turn screws up the medical personnel to population ratios both ways, of course in the U.S. it's not likely to get that much better considering the drastic difference in population size... literally Canada could trade all the medical personnel to the states and it wouldn't do that much for the ratio in the states, but Canada would be hurtin for certain

and seeing as how the insurance companies down in the states varies drastically, they can manipulate how they see the clientelle somewhat in accordance with the insurance co's that pay the best

but you're right on the nose when i seem to flip flop with trying to wrap my head around the issue because it is very complicated, and there's pro's and con's between both system's and all..... it's not much different than a three ring circus :tong:
In principle the population of our countries shouldnt matter Sol. We both come from sophisticated societies. Sure there are different problems because of logistics population spread and all the parphernalia which goes into operating a huge service. But human beings are quite bright, and they can resolve these problems.

We have immense pressures on our health service too Sol. All isnt a garden of roses here in our health service. It is however much better than were it not to exist and we were to rely on the kind of system which exists in the US. It is more cost effective, more efficient and if our medical people dont quite get the vast pay packets of American doctors is that such a bad thing?? No one can say medical practitioners and consultants in the UK are poor. Its a different story possibly on nursing and ancillary workers, where pay is nowhere near good enough.

In the end, the health service here does a frantastic job for the people of the UK, for all the fact its always in the news for something which isnt good enough or for some other mess someone is making. We fall ill, we are treated and we get better (or not) all for no cost save possibly that which we may have to pay for our prescriptions..may..for many different reasons millions are exempt for charges on grounds of income or the illness concerned. In Wales they dont have any at all. Before long I wouldnt be surprised if the new Nationalist government in Scotland does the same and abolishes them. Scotland already has the highest per capita spending on the heath service of any part of the UK. And for all that in other countries there exist health services far superior to our own. They also have huge stresses but no 1 in any of these countries, and certainly no 1 here seriously proposes to return to what existed before those health services were set up. We are trying to find ways to not only retain but improve them in the interests of the people of those countries.

Wherever nations with principally private health care exists, there is a reduction in the effectiveness of that health care to the general population. There is greed and wastage and a reduction in the levels of preventative medicine, and huge swathes of the population suffer as a result. The principle of State run and financed health care is generally accepted as the best way of providing a high quality service to the people of any nation. Except of course in the USA, where it smacks of socialism or communism to the powers that be. Politics aside, we should look at the realities, look at what goes on around us, and to hell with petty political nit picking and move ahead to provide the best level of care for all of the people, rich and poor that the resources of a nation can provide.

It is not that it comes out of taxation which should be the concern but that the people get the level of care they deserve provided by the people who are meant to be their protectors and providers of the general welfare... the state.

[flexuality]

"In principle the population of our countries shouldnt matter..."

Maybe it shouldn't matter....but it does.

For the US to suddenly change to a National Health Care system would be suicidal, firstly because of the population size.

I'm not convinced that either type of system is better than the other...but what I have seen over my lifetime of a governement run health care system is gradual decay that is picking up speed.

Our healthcare system used to be like yours fran....everything was covered, waits were minimal, most prescriptions were paid for (and those that weren't we had extended health to cover that), things like physiotherapy were covered....doctors were actually in good moods.

Gradually things have been taken away.....physiotherapy was one of the first to go....and any other type of medical therapy....

Then prescriptions...that's an interesting one.....it used to be that if your doctor prescribed a medication that it was paid for...then it changed to the govt only paid for some medications, but extended health would cover the rest of it....then it changed again to the govt only will cover what they call "necessary" medication, and extended health takes up the slack (BTW, extended health is PRIVATE insurance)....it's interesting what the government has deemed as "necessary medication".....then they took another step and said that only generic medication was covered if generic was available...then the next step, they now dictate to the private extended health care what drug costs they are allowed to cover.

I go into have a prescription filled, and I watch time and time again an elderly person in front of me getting 12 different meds filled and be practically in tears when they not only discover that half of their medication is no longer covered, but they don't even have the OPTION of getting insurance to cover the other half cuz even if they COULD get the insurance, the govt has dictated that private insurance is not allowed to cover those costs.

The cost of medical coverage has gone up...the services covered have gone down and keep getting "trimmed." They have actually made it illegal in BC to even SEE a doctor privately....and if you do not have the govt medical coverage, most doctors will not see you.

It is typical to wait an hour or more in a waiting room to see a General Practitioner, where it used to be 10 mintes or so. Doctors now double and triple book patients because they are capped on what they get paid per visit....most of them will only allow one complaint per visit and will ask you to rebook if you want to bring up more than one issue.

It's not a greed thing....it's the fact that their salary is capped and the cost of the medical insurances that they HAVE TO HAVE are not capped. None of the costs are capped. The govt does not provide their office space or pay the receptionist or buy any of their equipment. It's not about how much they get paid....it's about how much they KEEP.

I'm not sympathizing with doctors....what I am doing is seeing a system that is too controlling and is becoming worse.

You say:

"It is not that it comes out of taxation which should be the concern but that the people get the level of care they deserve provided by the people who are meant to be their protectors and providers of the general welfare... the state."

And I ask:

If this government medical system is so good, then why are the costs to us rising, the taxes increasing, the govt medical coverage premiums increasing drastically and the services that are covered declining? If we should just pay for it with our taxes, then shouldn't the services still be there?

Why am I paying more to the government and getting less?

[darkeyes]

First off flex no matter how large or small or complex nation is any switch will be done over time, well thought out and planned to eliminate as many teething problems as possible and to pevent the choos you fear.. Of course like any change there will be teething troubles, and no doubt lots of them, but the fact that there will be problems however daunting doesnt mean it should never be done. Saying something is difficult and therefore suicidal is in effct saying do nothing..and that is unnacceptable.

We are talking about a principle and no matter how yo argue you the states first priority is an obligation to defend and protect its people, and part of that obligation by definition is to defend and protect its people from want, from poverty and from ill health, and passing the buck to the private sector is not an option, nor is it moral. I can imagine the jumping up and down if the tools of destruction were privatised for instance, and your military was run by seperate corporations. Navy PLC, Navy ArmamentsPLC, Air Force Supply PLC, Army Tanks PLC, Marine shit paper PLC and so on. It would make a nightmare of logistics and planning, and for that reason it just would never happen. On the other hand a national health service could be operated by allowing just such planning to occur, and make health provision more even across the board irrespective of location, provide for better long term health planning, create proper economies of scale, and in time ensure the health of ALL americans was improved, as well as revive them of the immense stress of paying health bills and stopping of treatments when their health insurances run out.

Forget the trivia of problems like prescriptions, important yes to all who need them, but in the sheme of things whatever system operates that is but one minor problem which will be ironed out one way or other. Problems will exist and will have to be planned for and hopefully elimanated prior to change and will be in time as they crop up. Just as how medical practitioners are paid, what they have to pay will be sorted out, as will that for all medical staff. In the end it doesnt matter a bugger, because what it most important is the health of a nation's people..ALL of its people, and quite simply leaving health care in the hands of the private sector gives neither the accountability to the people, provides the health care all the people need or allow for proper preventative care, it being far more profitable to treat us when we are sick than to stop us being ill.

Any system is only as good as the resources which are put into it, the planning which allows it to operate, and the people who run it. On health it is no good moaning and scrimping, and leaving it to grow haphazardly. All must be paid for somehow, and taxation is the best way, making governemnt accountable for the good health of a nation..thats why its there.. its part of its remit. Its time government in the US properly live up to that obligation to ALL of its people. All I ask is this..in the great scheme of world health provision.. which nations have the best overall health? Those with a private haphazard mess, based on corporate greed, or those with proper state funded health care? Which nations best defend and protect the health of their peoples? What I do know is that the US for all its wonderful technological innovation, all its genius, all its wealth, is a long long long way down the list.

So stop nit picking..the proof of the pudding is in the eating... just make sure the pudding is good to eat and not a stodgy unhealthy unpalatable mess.

[Solomon]

the tools of destruction at one point were privatized to a large extent.... remember the armies of the South and of the War for Independance? and all the wars up until there became WMD's?

the people who would profit from a state-run or federal-run insurance plan would be of course the ones who control the profits..... ie the politicians
and there would be a profit to it, i can see it in Canada where the budget has actually netted a profit of several billion. they are the ones who still control what is to be paid out and not, as well as charging higher taxes, premiums and etc....

and what government are you talking about that's responsible for sheltering people from want, poverty and ill-health?

want is an emotion.... poverty is a state of mind..... and ill-health, granted is a definate issue that's clouded in complexities, however for the main it still remains a choice

so what you're arguing for, seems to be is a government that should be a tyranny to strip us of our rights to think, feel, and believe as we choose, even farther than they are

what is the better question? what country has better health care? or what country has better foundations with which to realize dreams?

[vittoria]

i've been wanting to move to canada (quebec actually ) for 20 years, so trust me
i know how screwy the structure is here..
complete bs...
corporate agendas and crap

[sammie19]

the tools of destruction at one point were privatized to a large extent.... remember the armies of the South and of the War for Independance? and all the wars up until there became WMD's?

the people who would profit from a state-run or federal-run insurance plan would be of course the ones who control the profits..... ie the politicians
and there would be a profit to it, i can see it in Canada where the budget has actually netted a profit of several billion. they are the ones who still control what is to be paid out and not, as well as charging higher taxes, premiums and etc....

and what government are you talking about that's responsible for sheltering people from want, poverty and ill-health?

want is an emotion.... poverty is a state of mind..... and ill-health, granted is a definate issue that's clouded in complexities, however for the main it still remains a choice

so what you're arguing for, seems to be is a government that should be a tyranny to strip us of our rights to think, feel, and believe as we choose, even farther than they are

what is the better question? what country has better health care? or what country has better foundations with which to realize dreams?Oxford English Dictionary: Want - lack absence deficiency need of sustenance poverty.

Poverty a state of mind? Tell that to the millions around the world who have absolutely nothing.

Health choice? Tell that to the millions around the world who are improverished and have no choice.

I find your statements unbelievable. Tyranny of government? It is tyranny of government that refuses to act positively on the needs of its people. I have watched your posts get more and more glib, facetious, and often uncaring and usually desperate and sometimes nasty. You are fool and in some ways a dangerous one. There is little so dangerous as an illiterate, ignorant and selfish man, and it is they who are so easily led by literate, nasty and selfish people who know should know better into bringing our world into disaster.

So when Solomon, you decide to quote a word definition. Get it right. When you decide to pick an argument pick one in which your opinion such as it is is not morally bankrupt and full of hypocrisy. If you are unable to understand your own language, and be sufficiently aware of what words mean, how can you be expected to understand the wider picture of complex economic and social issues. I am no expert in any of the fields of economics politics and world affairs, but I have an instinct for what is right. And I am slowly learning.

Charlie Chaplin used to learn a new word a day. I suggest you follow his example if anyone is to take any notice of your hysterical rants.

[darkeyes]

Wee suggestion for next time Sam...no pullin of the punches huh babes?? Ya wanna convince im not kill im...

Wot havya dun Sol 2 upset Sam???? Me gets ere an she drags me 2 the pc an points out wotta clot ya r... now ya got er 2 scrap wiv 2 ya havta b on a loser babes... she not quite so soft as me ya may hav noticed...... may notta quite put it in er words but she has essentially the rite of it... tho do take issue wiv the nasty bit... ya don wanna go upsettin the Craigie clan cos they strong an very argumentative women..even me wary of the cows!!! Upset Sam ya upset er lady, an god even me heads for hills then....

Now its weekend..no argumentative posts..jus won hav time!!! An me not savin ya bacon from this lotta cows no matta how much me luffs ya! :tong:

[the mage]

Well, a few comments in closing..
Our system here is far from perfect. Location is everything.
example..in BC the govt has indeed gone nuts with massive cuts and regs.
but BC is being overrun by immigrants, the entire place is straining. A house in Vancouver costs twice that of Toronto and 10 times anywhere else in Canada.

For gawd sake do not go to Quebec expecting good health care.
An appt to see your family doc, if you're the 50% who can get one, takes months. Rural old people are bathed once each 2 weeks if they can afford the service. there is no other service in rural Que for the old. And its ALL french.
I lived there for years and still have family there.
It took 9 hours wait to get a broken arm set in rural Que cause the doc was sleeping. Only 1 doc.....
A nurse can make 10,000 bucks a year more by working across the border in Ontario.

Here in Toronto I have excellent service. If I need a specialist I wait about 2 weeks for an appt. MY family doc can be seen same day. MRI is a 1 week wait, in an emerg right away... X ray same day, life saving drugs are covered but things like Viagara are not.

The profit being made here is not by the provincial govt which in all cases runs the health system, it is at the federal level due entirely to the hated GST of 6% on every fucking thing we buy. That tax was put in by the conservative pro business govt of a few years ago and not being passed down, it is being handed back to the like of ford and Gm to bribe them to keep factories open....

[Solomon]

Oxford English Dictionary: Want - lack absence deficiency need of sustenance poverty.

Poverty a state of mind? Tell that to the millions around the world who have absolutely nothing.

Health choice? Tell that to the millions around the world who are improverished and have no choice.

I find your statements unbelievable. Tyranny of government? It is tyranny of government that refuses to act positively on the needs of its people. I have watched your posts get more and more glib, facetious, and often uncaring and usually desperate and sometimes nasty. You are fool and in some ways a dangerous one. There is little so dangerous as an illiterate, ignorant and selfish man, and it is they who are so easily led by literate, nasty and selfish people who know should know better into bringing our world into disaster.

So when Solomon, you decide to quote a word definition. Get it right. When you decide to pick an argument pick one in which your opinion such as it is is not morally bankrupt and full of hypocrisy. If you are unable to understand your own language, and be sufficiently aware of what words mean, how can you be expected to understand the wider picture of complex economic and social issues. I am no expert in any of the fields of economics politics and world affairs, but I have an instinct for what is right. And I am slowly learning.

Charlie Chaplin used to learn a new word a day. I suggest you follow his example if anyone is to take any notice of your hysterical rants.

great.... you don't need to read anything i say, and i'll certainly return the favor

or perhaps you would teach everyone from your extensive experience of the world the way that the systems work and enlighten us all so that we all can have riches beyond our wildest imaginations and we can forget about ideas like poverty, war, oppression, and ill-health to name a few?

and i know i'm a fool.... why else would i constantly challenge myself to understand meanings vs simply learning by rote?

[Solomon]

Wee suggestion for next time Sam...no pullin of the punches huh babes?? Ya wanna convince im not kill im...

Wot havya dun Sol 2 upset Sam???? Me gets ere an she drags me 2 the pc an points out wotta clot ya r... now ya got er 2 scrap wiv 2 ya havta b on a loser babes... she not quite so soft as me ya may hav noticed...... may notta quite put it in er words but she has essentially the rite of it... tho do take issue wiv the nasty bit... ya don wanna go upsettin the Craigie clan cos they strong an very argumentative women..even me wary of the cows!!! Upset Sam ya upset er lady, an god even me heads for hills then....

Now its weekend..no argumentative posts..jus won hav time!!! An me not savin ya bacon from this lotta cows no matta how much me luffs ya! :tong:

am i supposed to worry about a clan that's thousands of miles away from me and can't handle themselves with some measure of emotional restraint?

i don't like disagreement all the time..... but i am willing to offer the universal principle that applies as i understand it to see if it truly does hold water universally, and i have my faults in handling that emotionally at times too.... at least i choose to get through it instead of avoiding it because it might be 'uncomfortable'

frankly, i've had people get in my face that were a hell of alot worse than a clan..... so to say that i'm unimpressed by the rantings of someone who apparently is quick to judge, slow to think, not willing to learn, and expects the world to flatter her would be putting it mild

[macman885]

My head is about to explode.

Every program the USA government has started it has fucked up. And people still want them to run the health care system. Wake up!

Give the poor and low paid a subsidy so they can purchase private health care and keep the gov't the hell out of it.

And...it is not the gov't responsibility to take care of everyone. I'll take care of myself, thank you very much.

[Solomon]

the biggest thing i think that cracks me up is when people think i'm dangerous...... ME?!?! LOL!! nobody listens to me..... nor are they likely to in the near future either, and i'm supposed to get myself in a knot over that??

i make posts primarily for me..... and i wish i was as ignorant and illiterate as you seem to think... then i wouldn't hafta put up with being called ignorant and illiterate, i'd just go about my life not even thinking to do more than work at a job, or vote, or get my panties in a bunch over Paris Hilton, or whatever

however, i am selfish...... and at least i can admit it vs. trying to put some facade of caring into the government subsidies, and charities of the world, all the while crying to everyone about what a good person i am

[darkeyes]

am i supposed to worry about a clan that's thousands of miles away from me and can't handle themselves with some measure of emotional restraint?

i don't like disagreement all the time..... but i am willing to offer the universal principle that applies as i understand it to see if it truly does hold water universally, and i have my faults in handling that emotionally at times too.... at least i choose to get through it instead of avoiding it because it might be 'uncomfortable'

frankly, i've had people get in my face that were a hell of alot worse than a clan..... so to say that i'm unimpressed by the rantings of someone who apparently is quick to judge, slow to think, not willing to learn, and expects the world to flatter her would be putting it mild
OOO Sol baby...hav u misjudged er!

Seems ya gorrup outa bed on rong side this mornin..ya humour has run off 2 Tesco's wivoutya! Sugggest ya nip down an stop it gettin ya inta trubble!:tong:

[JohnnyV]

Just to clarify a little, I don't think most proponents of health care reform want to force everyone in the US to subscribe to a government health plan. They just want there to be some kind of national plan that everyone is entitled to, as a minimum. People with generous employers or high enough incomes to get private insurance, would get private insurance and all the great treatment that goes with it. People who are not so fortunate, would be able to sign up with the public health plan, much the way, for instance, people who can't afford private schools send their kids to public school.

Inequality will always be a problem, but most people, as far as I know, are more concerned with easing the stress on the uninsured people at the bottom of the spectrum. Many of them are working, but in low-paid jobs, and can't afford to insure themselves but also don't qualify for welfare and Medicaid.

J


My head is about to explode.

Every program the USA government has started it has fucked up. And people still want them to run the health care system. Wake up!

Give the poor and low paid a subsidy so they can purchase private health care and keep the gov't the hell out of it.

And...it is not the gov't responsibility to take care of everyone. I'll take care of myself, thank you very much.

[Solomon]

OOO Sol baby...hav u misjudged er!

Seems ya gorrup outa bed on rong side this mornin..ya humour has run off 2 Tesco's wivoutya! Sugggest ya nip down an stop it gettin ya inta trubble!:tong:

lol i think i'm not the only one misjudging things here... and my sense of humor hasn't gone anywhere.... i appreciate the name calling because it means there's nothing intelligent left to say :tong:

[darkeyes]

Just to clarify a little, I don't think most proponents of health care reform want to force everyone in the US to subscribe to a government health plan. They just want there to be some kind of national plan that everyone is entitled to, as a minimum. People with generous employers or high enough incomes to get private insurance, would get private insurance and all the great treatment that goes with it. People who are not so fortunate, would be able to sign up with the public health plan, much the way, for instance, people who can't afford private schools send their kids to public school.

Inequality will always be a problem, but most people, as far as I know, are more concerned with easing the stress on the uninsured people at the bottom of the spectrum. Many of them are working, but in low-paid jobs, and can't afford to insure themselves but also don't qualify for welfare and Medicaid.

JAn that Johnny babe is rancid! Not wot universal health care means at all... an stuff the private schools idea 2... 1ce again we argue for privilege an discrimination..jeez... will yas neva learn???

[darkeyes]

lol i think i'm not the only one misjudging things here... and my sense of humor hasn't gone anywhere.... i appreciate the name calling because it means there's nothing intelligent left to say :tong:
No Yas not Sol babes.. JohnnyV talks through his arse an all... :bigrin:

[flexuality]

I find your statements unbelievable. Tyranny of government? It is tyranny of government that refuses to act positively on the needs of its people. I have watched your posts get more and more glib, facetious, and often uncaring and usually desperate and sometimes nasty. You are fool and in some ways a dangerous one. There is little so dangerous as an illiterate, ignorant and selfish man, and it is they who are so easily led by literate, nasty and selfish people who know should know better into bringing our world into disaster.

So when Solomon, you decide to quote a word definition. Get it right. When you decide to pick an argument pick one in which your opinion such as it is is not morally bankrupt and full of hypocrisy. If you are unable to understand your own language, and be sufficiently aware of what words mean, how can you be expected to understand the wider picture of complex economic and social issues. I am no expert in any of the fields of economics politics and world affairs, but I have an instinct for what is right. And I am slowly learning.

Charlie Chaplin used to learn a new word a day. I suggest you follow his example if anyone is to take any notice of your hysterical rants.

I would suggest that the first thing you do is take a good look in the mirror. Did you not do exactly what you are accusing others of doing?

[Azrael]

All I can say is read my damn sig :cool:

[flexuality]

nit-picking fran? lol!

Is it nit picking because you don't have an answer? Or the only answer you have for it is "will be ironed out one way or other"?

That's one of the major downfalls of arguments such as yours....they are wonderfully worded and full of big words and politically correct terms....but they are also full of "should."

This is the way the world "should" be.....the problem is, it's not that way and you offer no means for it to become that way other than it "should."

It's like declaring that the sky "should" be orange, and then presenting all the eloquently stated reasons as to why it "should" be orange, but offering no solution.

It's like sitting down to a game of poker, being dealt five cards and then ranting about what I "should" have been dealt. I could come up with a million "reasons" to back up my statement, but the fact still remains that I hold the cards I do, and I can either play them or not.

You start with the assumption that everyone would like your "goverment runs everything and takes care of it's people" idea and that people will be happy with simply having a good job, good pay, health taken care of, etc.

I, for one, do not want that. I don''t think I am the only one that does not want a life handed out to me, predetermined by the government with no chance or hope for more.

This is not freedom you advocate....it is a cage.

At one time in my life I would have supported your vision, would have agreed with it whole-heartedly...but it is an illusion, a cage....a trap.

There is no way on this earth you could ever get everyone to agree on anything, let alone a handed out life. There will always be those who oppose it....then what are you gonna do? Enforce it? Dictate it to them? Eliminate them?

You argue agaisnt Nazism....yet the realization of your vision would be dangerously close to Nazism. You can put all the humane ideals into place that you want, but you can never take human nature out of human beings.

A fur lined cage is still a cage.

[JohnnyV]

No Yas not Sol babes.. JohnnyV talks through his arse an all... :bigrin:


Darkeyes,

I don't know which orifice you talk through, but all I can say is, your ghetto Scottish pidgin routine got really old a long time ago.

J

[flexuality]

Saying something is difficult and therefore suicidal is in effct saying do nothing..and that is unnacceptable.
I did not say it was suicidal because it was difficult, nor have I ever said "do nothing."



We are talking about a principle and no matter how yo argue you the states first priority is an obligation to defend and protect its people, and part of that obligation by definition is to defend and protect its people from want, from poverty and from ill health, and passing the buck to the private sector is not an option, nor is it moral.
Yes, we are talking about a principle....teaching a man to fish, not giving him a fish.


Forget the trivia of problems like prescriptions, important yes to all who need them, but in the sheme of things whatever system operates that is but one minor problem which will be ironed out one way or other. Problems will exist and will have to be planned for and hopefully elimanated prior to change and will be in time as they crop up. Just as how medical practitioners are paid, what they have to pay will be sorted out, as will that for all medical staff. In the end it doesnt matter a bugger, because what it most important is the health of a nation's people.
This is the very "trivia" that does affect people. It's so easy to just say it will be sorted out....good luck.



.ALL of its people, and quite simply leaving health care in the hands of the private sector gives neither the accountability to the people, provides the health care all the people need or allow for proper preventative care, it being far more profitable to treat us when we are sick than to stop us being ill.
Yes, it does seem at this point to be more profitable to treat us when we're sick than to stop us from being ill...that is true. But National Health care holds the same view....people forget that the government wants to make money too, so any kind of National health care does not eliminate this problem. I have lived my entire life under government provided health care and I can assure you that they do not take an interest in preventative medicine.



Any system is only as good as the resources which are put into it, the planning which allows it to operate, and the people who run it. On health it is no good moaning and scrimping, and leaving it to grow haphazardly. All must be paid for somehow, and taxation is the best way, making governemnt accountable for the good health of a nation..thats why its there.. its part of its remit. Its time government in the US properly live up to that obligation to ALL of its people.

got u head in the clouds agin? lol! Is the government suddenly gonna stop and say "Fran's right?"

[darkeyes]

I did not say it was suicidal because it was difficult, nor have I ever said "do nothing."


Yes, we are talking about a principle....teaching a man to fish, not giving him a fish.

This is the very "trivia" that does affect people. It's so easy to just say it will be sorted out....good luck.


Yes, it does seem at this point to be more profitable to treat us when we're sick than to stop us from being ill...that is true. But National Health care holds the same view....people forget that the government wants to make money too, so any kind of National health care does not eliminate this problem. I have lived my entire life under government provided health care and I can assure you that they do not take an interest in preventative medicine.


got u head in the clouds agin? lol! Is the government suddenly gonna stop and say "Fran's right?"
Argue all ya like Flex...but Fran is rite.. an deep down ya know it....

[darkeyes]

Darkeyes,

I don't know which orifice you talk through, but all I can say is, your ghetto Scottish pidgin routine got really old a long time ago.

J
Mayb..but still makes me morally in the rite an u still talkin though ya arse....

[Solomon]

An that Johnny babe is rancid! Not wot universal health care means at all... an stuff the private schools idea 2... 1ce again we argue for privilege an discrimination..jeez... will yas neva learn???

and i suppose that you're above learning fran? Mr. Amygdala does create that illusion very well doesn't he?

making a country into a country where there's no incentive for the wealthy to stay.... they'll just go to a country that's friendly to their money, where there is accomodation and priveledges

and so do their businesses that provide the jobs that people need to survive
you've said it yourself, rich people aren't that concerned with the common people, nor are they likely to wake up one morning and decide to give it all away because they feel for the common people

of course the cycle would start all over again with new wealth and new power.... but what about the people in the meantime?

i don't pretend that i'm a man of the people.... but i do try to be one for the people (i love that line The Gladiator!)

[flexuality]

Argue all ya like Flex...but Fran is rite.. an deep down ya know it....
Argue all ya like Fran.....if being "right" is all that's important to ya, knock yaself out......an deep down ya know it......

[Solomon]

All I can say is read my damn sig :cool:

Azrael, that is so true..... it's amazing how often we see our own problems in others and use others to voice the problem and then two years down the road i've often done the Homer Simpson "DO'H!!"

and.... it's been said and acknowledged more times i think than sex that our biggest enemy is the six inches between our ears

[Solomon]

and Johnny V

I can certainly see where a National health insurance policy might have a chance, if it was an all or nothing choice... ie when you're unemployed, then for a time it might make sense to have the national policy, then when you get a job with a better policy that it'd be very easy to switch....

Now that seems very reasonable to me, unless there are issues with that approach that I can't see.

[darkeyes]

Argue all ya like Fran.....if being "right" is all that's important to ya, knock yaself out......an deep down ya know it......
Bein rite aint all thats important 2 me Flex... but it is hugely important.. an doin me bit 2 drag down power wealth an privilege, and tryin 2 better the lot in me own small way of those who hav nowt, an make world a fairer place is summat me cudn live wiv meself if me didn do it.... way I am..way me stay... an deep down me knows that deep as me soul...

[holybane]

I'll be honest, I have no healthcare. I've been lucky enough to have not contracted anything deadly or broken any bones in recent years but I fear my time of "health" is running out. Right now I'm having a problem with the skin on my left hand, but I can't get a professional opinion without paying through the nose, so I deal with it.

I'd be happy with any amount of coverage right now, but I do think universal healthcare would be better for people like me who can't afford it on our meager salaries.

Just my pennies,
-Roger

[darkeyes]

An me learns every day Sol... learns jus wotta shitty world this can be an yet jus wot a frantabulous 1 it is at same time... learns that ther r bastards who fuk up an wanna keep things for themselves an that ther r amazin peeps who will go 2 end of world for the benefit not jus of their fellow human beins, but for the smallest livin creature..who will do all they can an sacrifice thesmeslves to benefit an improve the planet... learns that unless we do summat PDQ we will have no planet 2 live on, cos it will b uninhabitable, learns that unless we do summat PDQ ther gonna b such a shortage of water that we headin for Armageddon, learns it aint 2 late an we can save ourselves. but has 2 get off our arses PDQ if we gonna manage it... learns a lot every day Sol..an nun of it involves savin the arses of selfish rich bastards who wan all the wealth resources an power in the world to themselves, except 2 try an make em see that they do immense harm 2 us all, an learns it don matta a jot how much dosh an power ya hav...wen this world ends... ya can take it wiv ya, but ya can 2 eff all wiv it!!!

Its for the people Sol hun me believes wot me dus.. its my common humanity that makes me know thatya cant hav a world based on huge discrepencies between rich an poor wer a few hav it all an the rest 2 all intents an purposes eff all. An if the world is fair an decent, all of the world, wer the rich gonna run 2??? Me more faith than u Sol in me fellow human beins..cos me believes that they can an will pull togetha to make our world a betta place if they can see its a betta place in first instance to try an keep makin it betta still for them an their children an for all who r yet 2 cum...

But we betta do summat bout it PDQ or we in deep shit!!! Thats wy deep down, me knows I am rite!

[the mage]

A small point about basic care being provided nationally at a government level.
The workers on the street here, that is the ambulance fire and cops are all strong union jobs. They are paid decent wages to risk their life.
I'm amazed that in the US there are ambulance and emergency workers doing it for little more than minimum wage, while your doctors get really wealthy.
That is the type of imbalance I object to.

[Vuarra]

The only way healthcare will become fair is if we get rid of money.

That's not going to happen, as people need to be judged with regards to their status in society.

All of us, Canadians, Americans, Scottish, and all others, are getting what we deserve. If we don't like that, then that's up to *us* to change, not changing everyone else to our point of view.

[darkeyes]

The only way healthcare will become fair is if we get rid of money.

That's not going to happen, as people need to be judged with regards to their status in society.

All of us, Canadians, Americans, Scottish, and all others, are getting what we deserve. If we don't like that, then that's up to *us* to change, not changing everyone else to our point of view.
Nope Vu.. we mite be gettin wotta loada arseholes think we deserve..thats not quite same thing babes.. thats wy me believes wot me believes....

[flexuality]

A small point about basic care being provided nationally at a government level.
The workers on the street here, that is the ambulance fire and cops are all strong union jobs. They are paid decent wages to risk their life.
I'm amazed that in the US there are ambulance and emergency workers doing it for little more than minimum wage, while your doctors get really wealthy.
That is the type of imbalance I object to.
The imbalance is not in the money or the wages...it's in the thinking. The ambulance and emergency workers have every opportunity to be doctors if the want to, or anything else....there is no denial of this. Nobody forced them to become emergency workers...they choose it.

Why should a doctor or anyone else with wealth be held financially responsible for the choices others make?

[flexuality]

All of us, Canadians, Americans, Scottish, and all others, are getting what we deserve. If we don't like that, then that's up to *us* to change, not changing everyone else to our point of view.

I agree....we do get what we deserve and we're right where we choose to be....whether we admit that or not.

I can't change anyone else....I can only change me.

Most of the time I just want to exchange ideas and views and discuss. Sometimes I want to change others views, usually cuz I care...but in the long run, it's all vanity.

Even Mother Theresa didn't do what she did for "other people"....she did it because of the way it made her feel to do it.

We are all selfish....one of mankind's biggest folly is denying that and believing that it's wrong.

[darkeyes]

The imbalance is not in the money or the wages...it's in the thinking. The ambulance and emergency workers have every opportunity to be doctors if the want to, or anything else....there is no denial of this. Nobody forced them to become emergency workers...they choose it.

Why should a doctor or anyone else with wealth be held financially responsible for the choices others make?
so we hav millions of doctors an no emergency workers?? We all hav natural abilities an not every 1 has ability 2 be a doctor, an not even an emergency worker...

No 1 sayin they shud b held financially responsible for the decisions of others Flex..but they should be financially responsible 2 themselves....

[darkeyes]

I agree....we do get what we deserve and we're right where we choose to be....whether we admit that or not.

I can't change anyone else....I can only change me.

Most of the time I just want to exchange ideas and views and discuss. Sometimes I want to change others views, usually cuz I care...but in the long run, it's all vanity.

Even Mother Theresa didn't do what she did for "other people"....she did it because of the way it made her feel to do it.

We are all selfish....one of mankind's biggest folly is denying that and believing that it's wrong.One of mans biggest follies is denyin they selfish an doin sod all 2 change it flex... thats the tragedy of our world an wy it in such a poop mess... we r all selfish will give ya that.. just that thers selfishness an fukkin abuse..

[Solomon]

as i've said before fran.... i really can't argue with the way things SHOULD be..... you're entitled to your opinion, and i'm entitled to fight against anyone who would work to force me to adopt your opinion as a lifestyle, because that person sees me as an enemy

and make no mistake, the world you dream of will only come about as a result of world war..... do you have the resources for that? you being a 'pacifist', would you condem billions to die for it?

if you would.... you better be ready to look'em in the eye when you do
whether you admit it or not, being willing to ask people to die for your cause (or not) will tell you whether it's a dream, or just a pipe dream

[Solomon]

oh..... and in order to convince people to die for you, you're going to have to become a leader.... so by default, there we are back to an elite class and you would be it

good luck!

[darkeyes]

U so wrong as eva in how me sees things.... not my intention for peeps 2 die for my or ne otha cause, nor dus me see u as me enemy..seems mayb u do me tho..an thats ok....if thats how ya truly sees me.. want my world 2 be brought inta bein peacefully for only in peace can it eva work...brutal revolution begats a brutal system..am a pacifist..an only person who will raise a gun or ne otha weapon won b me..will b otha side... ur side apparently, or at least the side that u hav chosen.. an don wanna force ne 1 to adopt a lifestyle..only be part of a system an way of life which allows all of humanity as a whole dignity an a betta life an live in peace an prosperity... prefer it be done by debate an argument..by persuasion..not at end of a gun... an if ther is a world war it'll be caused not by me or peeps like me but ya rich an powerful elites vyin for ther own position an 2 protect ther power an privilege...

U jus a common man an me jus a lil workin class girl Sol..they cudn care bout us... only for wot we can do for them without havin 2 give 2 much back.. wivout givin ne thin bak if they cud. U hav a choice...stick wivya own or back up the elite who r ya true enemy .... think yas already made ya choice an they rubbin ther hands wiv glee while callin ya a sucker behind ya bak an am sorry for it... think thats wot Sam wos sayin wen she called u an peeps like ya dangerous...

[chulainn2]

[SIZE=3]OK what the fuck is a 'youse guys'???

[wanderingrichard]

my gawds, it sounds like somfin outta an old brooklyn gangster movie from the 40's " youse guys"

regardless, yes i do know what my med.insurance contract says etc. have recently updated my coverage and they always send me a copy of it when the updates are completed and posted.

pro and con regarding gov't/ state vs. private / public administered medical coverage will always be a topic of discussion. both have their merits. but as we all know both could be much improved.

some of the old tales about how people died because they don't have or didnt have coverage are most likely true. i'm fortunate enough to have to only learn about it as a history lesson, because by the time i was old enough to understand what was going on around me, most states in the US had enacted laws forbidding denial of service based on ability to pay. fact is most hospitals already had been working on this before the legislators wised up and passed those laws.

socialized medicine?? good luck. canada isnt the only country with that type of program that is seriously going south. friends from UK Germany and france also tell me these things.
this day and age, you pays your money, you takes your chances. :2cents:

[Solomon]

you are right in that i've chosen a side.... i've chosen the side that feeds my family, and allows me the dignity of figuring out a system so that we can and do live a measure of priveledge...

if that makes me a sucker or fool or any other name to be conjured up, by your standards or anyone else's, then so be it.... in a conflict between ego and money, i'll take the money thanks

you have misjudged in one thing though... i'm no longer just a common man, and flex is no longer a wee working class girl and we can never go back to thinking in common ways.... not a day passes that we don't become part of this 'elite' group more and more..... she just as much if not more than me

i do however also wish that everyone would just get along, and that money would be no object for anyone, and that everyone would just be ok with that.... but you know as well as i that it's a fool's dream, because people are just that... people, and most seem to insist on things staying the way it is, even though we all love to complain alot.... but it's noise without steel, filled with give me, give me, give me, just don't expect me to give more to allow to you to give me more!

hell, the unions are based on things staying the way they are! they insist on contracts to enforce the slavery! make the common people comfortable! and it's in that comfort that the slavery's found

i could go on and on..... but it doesn't matter, 'cuz it doesn't matter how wealthy or elite anyone becomes, even the Buffets, the Gates's, and the Rockefeller's, and the Carnegies, and ect.. etc.. even if all of the elite got together and did exactly what you propose and make everyone even across the board..... it would be back exactly the way it is in a matter of years, and the unions would still shout give us more for less!

oh and fran? you are aware that you are working for the 'elite' class, and that in doing nothing to excel beyond that, you agree with'em by default

[Solomon]

oh and for the youse guys thing..... that's the french accent i believe

viva la France! France was pivotal in the American Revolution, i think that deserves and demands some respect

[flexuality]

so we hav millions of doctors an no emergency workers?? We all hav natural abilities an not every 1 has ability 2 be a doctor, an not even an emergency worker...

No 1 sayin they shud b held financially responsible for the decisions of others Flex..but they should be financially responsible 2 themselves....

That's my point Fran....we wouldn't have millions of doctors and no emergency workers....just like it is now. Most people are not willing to put in the years of training to become a doctor even though they do have the opportunity to do so....therefore if they're not willing to do that (and there's nothing wrong with not being willing to do that) then they really have no 'right' to complain about the choices they made.

And what do you know of a wealthy person's finances to say that they are not financially responsible?

[flexuality]

One of mans biggest follies is denyin they selfish an doin sod all 2 change it flex... thats the tragedy of our world an wy it in such a poop mess... we r all selfish will give ya that.. just that thers selfishness an fukkin abuse..

Again Fran, that is my point. There is nothing wrong with being selfish.

Is it selfish if one is traveling by air with a child and something happens where the oxygen masks come down and the parent puts on their mask first? How can I help someone else if I don't first help me?

Yes, there is abuse in this world, but that is not the same as selfishness. All actions stem from selfishness, not just abusive ones.

No one on this earth would want your good deeds, Fran, if they were not selfish. Where would that leave you? Everyone is looking for "what's in it for me?" and there's nothing wrong with that! It is what makes us able to interact with others. It is what makes us able to help others. Have you ever tried to help someone who wants nothing?

[flexuality]

An me learns every day Sol... learns jus wotta shitty world this can be an yet jus wot a frantabulous 1 it is at same time... learns that ther r bastards who fuk up an wanna keep things for themselves an that ther r amazin peeps who will go 2 end of world for the benefit not jus of their fellow human beins, but for the smallest livin creature..who will do all they can an sacrifice thesmeslves to benefit an improve the planet... learns that unless we do summat PDQ we will have no planet 2 live on, cos it will b uninhabitable, learns that unless we do summat PDQ ther gonna b such a shortage of water that we headin for Armageddon, learns it aint 2 late an we can save ourselves. but has 2 get off our arses PDQ if we gonna manage it... learns a lot every day Sol..an nun of it involves savin the arses of selfish rich bastards who wan all the wealth resources an power in the world to themselves, except 2 try an make em see that they do immense harm 2 us all, an learns it don matta a jot how much dosh an power ya hav...wen this world ends... ya can take it wiv ya, but ya can 2 eff all wiv it!!!

Its for the people Sol hun me believes wot me dus.. its my common humanity that makes me know thatya cant hav a world based on huge discrepencies between rich an poor wer a few hav it all an the rest 2 all intents an purposes eff all. An if the world is fair an decent, all of the world, wer the rich gonna run 2??? Me more faith than u Sol in me fellow human beins..cos me believes that they can an will pull togetha to make our world a betta place if they can see its a betta place in first instance to try an keep makin it betta still for them an their children an for all who r yet 2 cum...

But we betta do summat bout it PDQ or we in deep shit!!! Thats wy deep down, me knows I am rite!

uummm....Fran? Armageddon?? No planet to live on?? Shortage of water?? The rich all wanna keep things for themselves??

Where you gettin your information from?

[darkeyes]

you are right in that i've chosen a side.... i've chosen the side that feeds my family, and allows me the dignity of figuring out a system so that we can and do live a measure of privilege...

if that makes me a sucker or fool or any other name to be conjured up, by your standards or anyone else's, then so be it.... in a conflict between ego and money, i'll take the money thanks

you have misjudged in one thing though... i'm no longer just a common man, and flex is no longer a wee working class girl and we can never go back to thinking in common ways.... not a day passes that we don't become part of this 'elite' group more and more..... she just as much if not more than me

i do however also wish that everyone would just get along, and that money would be no object for anyone, and that everyone would just be ok with that.... but you know as well as i that it's a fool's dream, because people are just that... people, and most seem to insist on things staying the way it is, even though we all love to complain alot.... but it's noise without steel, filled with give me, give me, give me, just don't expect me to give more to allow to you to give me more!

hell, the unions are based on things staying the way they are! they insist on contracts to enforce the slavery! make the common people comfortable! and it's in that comfort that the slavery's found

i could go on and on..... but it doesn't matter, 'cuz it doesn't matter how wealthy or elite anyone becomes, even the Buffets, the Gates's, and the Rockefeller's, and the Carnegies, and ect.. etc.. even if all of the elite got together and did exactly what you propose and make everyone even across the board..... it would be back exactly the way it is in a matter of years, and the unions would still shout give us more for less!

oh and fran? you are aware that you are working for the 'elite' class, and that in doing nothing to excel beyond that, you agree with'em by default
You quite simply have no understanding do you? There are many different ways to fight for and feed your family other than sell your soul for 30 pieces of silver which is what with every word you utter you appear to have done. Far better to make the world a better place for all if we can than to take the kings shilling and crush the aspirations of the masses for the benefit of the few. If you can live with that Sol, so be it.. I cetainly could not.

You have no understanding of what Trade unions do or why they do them.. they do not insist of contracts toe enforce slavery on workers, they exist to promote and protect the rights of worker, as a collective unit to defend the rights of workers in the workplace.The rights of human beings wherever unions exits woud be far worse off had they never existed. For their remit goes far beyond just those people who are their members but into the wider scheme of things throughout society because their members are part of society and so it is not just their right but their obligation. And make the common people comfortable? My God, were it only so. They may allow the common people some comfort to stop them feeling isolated and that they have somewhere to go when the bosses fuck with their lives. You say comfortable as if it is a sin for the common people to be comfortable. And I honestly believe now that you probably do.

Ok so you are not the common man, thats your choice and I wish you luck. Youve chosen to stand where you do for whatever reason. I remain a working class girl, and stand where I do because the class war is hale and hearty sadly, not because of what people like me say and think contrary to what many would have you believe,but because massive injustice still exists in our world because the elite will not allow it to be otherwise.


As it happens Sol I agree with you to some degree about working for the ruling elite, even though I work in the public sector, for that is how our society is structured and simply to keep a roof over my head its difficult to do otherwise. But I do aspire to greater things than working for these arseholes in any way. I do not just sit back and accept things. That is not my way. I do not accept my kismet but try to influence it. So do not think I do nothing to excel beyond that Sol. You would be quite wrong.

[darkeyes]

We can all be selfish on behalf of those we care for most.. we call it love, and I would argue that it is not selfishness in any case. Its what human beings often are very good at. Sometimes we do things which on the face of it are selfish and yet are quite simply nothing of the kind. The taking of that oxygen mask can be just such a time.

But in general Flex, selfishness is wrong and should never be encouraged and certainly never admired. Selfishness, of which we are all guilty at times, is the cause of most of our worlds man made ills. You may wish to promote it as a virtue. I am afraid its not something I find either edifying or worthy of any merit.

[darkeyes]

uummm....Fran? Armageddon?? No planet to live on?? Shortage of water?? The rich all wanna keep things for themselves??

Where you gettin your information from?
Get your head of the sand Sol. The information is everywhere to be found. Though I suppose you dont even accept climate change as reality, man made or othewise. That already there is a shortage of drinking water in many parts of the world, and that it is getting worse, and that shortage of drinking water er will make the Iraq war seem like a sunday school picnic unless we act and act now. Waken up man! If you dont care about what happens in your lifetime think of your kids.

[TheThreeOfUs]

A question to my American friends....

Admittedly brought on by (shame..) Oprah and M. Moore...

Have you actually read your medical insurance contract??

Are you really as covered as you think?

I'm a proud Canadian all the way and have had to use the health system quite a lot here. Despite many complaints you hear I've always had confidence in knowing that timely care is in fact available with no profit motive in place.

The all for one, one for all, concept of the system for something as basic who determines whether or not you get to live seems eminently fair.

Agree?? or No??
I agree but my blue cross/blue shield covered every penny of expense when I had cancer for the surgery and all treatments and blood that was flown in from different states, even for all testing for 6 yrs after the original diagnosis. I was quite pleased with them. AND Im cancer free for 7 yrs now!

[Solomon]

i don't understand anything? that's kinda funny considering i've worked with one long enough that i should have some clue... let's see

employees don't have the right to negotiate their own wages
employees don't have the right to surpass people based on ability to do a job
employees don't have any control over any negotiation proceedings
employees don't have any recourse legally unless they go through the union
employees don't have the right to take vacations when they want them
employees don't have the right to extend their breaks or lunches
employees don't have the right to defend themselves to employers without the union (or else they can be fired without legal recourse, or employment insurance)
employees don't have the right to say no to mandatory overtime
employees don't have the right to be sick without the good graces of a doctor
employees don't have the right to adjust their own working hours
employees don't have the right to extend their vacations
employees don't have the right to not pay for insurance
employees don't have the right to negotiate with upper management for anything without the union
employees don't have the right to go to the labor board without going through the union first
and there's probably alot i'm missing in there

hhhmmmm you're right i don't have a clue or any understanding as to these rights you're trying to shove down me throat that employees have that the unions are fighting for.....

and who's trading who's soul? i think it's the person that works for forty years at a job so he can get a watch for building somebody else's dream, but don't take my word for it... seeing as how i don't have a clue

if that makes me some sort of evil then oh well, guess i'm evil

[flexuality]

Look Fran....

I'm getting weary of this.....

I can't seem to have any input into any issues on this forum in regards to money, religion or politics without you bashing me into the ground and telling me what it is you determine that I think, feel and believe, and how wrong I am for saying anything other than what YOU think is right.

You have judged me to be some evil person who would sell her soul with no caring for what happens in my lifetime to me or my kids, simply because I believe in making more out of my life than what it is.

I feel bad for you that you were hurt so much by someone with wealth....you have posted as much in these forums, so it's no secret.

But I am tired of you taking it out on me and Sol. We do not promote or partake in the bizarre view you have of wealthy people...and I feel sad for you that that is your only exposure to wealth, because those are NOT the only kind of wealthy people out there.

To assume that Sol and I are some sort of oppressers of the masses not worthy of any merit because we believe in giving people and hand UP, not a hand OUT, just because of some bad experience in your life, is so very short sighted on your part.

I started out in this thread simply talking about my first hand experiences with a government run health care, and how it has gone seriously down hill over the years, just offering a perspective......and I am attacked again for presenting my view, that just happens to be different than yours.

'Course, more fool me for continuing to engage in this rhetoric....but as a friend, I guess I thought that if we kind of "hashed it out" we would start to at least see each other's perspectives and the emotions would calm down, and perhaps we could agree to disagree........but that's not happening.

It seems to have hit a nerve with you.....and I am tired of being your target practice. I don't blame you...I could have pulled out of this at any point....it doesn't seem that you have that ability though, that somehow "the last word" is victory to you....

You can bash me til the cows come home, you can throw all your fancy words at me that you want, you can believe lies, you can create some imaginary justification for all or this.....but you will NEVER take my dignity.

[darkeyes]

i don't understand anything? that's kinda funny considering i've worked with one long enough that i should have some clue... let's see

employees don't have the right to negotiate their own wages
employees don't have the right to surpass people based on ability to do a job
employees don't have any control over any negotiation proceedings
employees don't have any recourse legally unless they go through the union
employees don't have the right to take vacations when they want them
employees don't have the right to extend their breaks or lunches
employees don't have the right to defend themselves to employers without the union (or else they can be fired without legal recourse, or employment insurance)
employees don't have the right to say no to mandatory overtime
employees don't have the right to be sick without the good graces of a doctor
employees don't have the right to adjust their own working hours
employees don't have the right to extend their vacations
employees don't have the right to not pay for insurance
employees don't have the right to negotiate with upper management for anything without the union
employees don't have the right to go to the labor board without going through the union first
and there's probably alot i'm missing in there

hhhmmmm you're right i don't have a clue or any understanding as to these rights you're trying to shove down me throat that employees have that the unions are fighting for.....

and who's trading who's soul? i think it's the person that works for forty years at a job so he can get a watch for building somebody else's dream, but don't take my word for it... seeing as how i don't have a clue

if that makes me some sort of evil then oh well, guess i'm evilIt may be that Unions work differently in the US from here Sol. I know that is true in at least some areas. but lets take your statements as you raise them

Not in general they do not have the right to negotiate their own wages, not because they do not wish to, but because they have decided it best to surrender that right to their trade union, because by collective bargaining this increases their bargaining chip. Not just on pay but in a whole gambit of working conditions and practices.

Trade unions in the UK are believers in meritocracy, not advancement by seniority or favouritism or any other undignified practice. The best person for the job, promotion and advancement by ability. It is when management try to break and abuse this system that unions step in at the request of their members, and sometimes because of blatant disregard by management.

Members have control over their union through the democratic process and it is they who decide the policy of the union, either through annual confereneces or through their elected representatives who are democratically held to account for any decision they make.

In the UK members may act with or without their trade union on any legal matter pertaining to their working conditions, including the right to take their trade union to law should it break its side of the bargain.

No one has the right to take holidays when they want them Sol, management would never stand for it for one thing, but in the UK trade unions have negotiated that they may be taken at any time as far as possible of the members choosing not withstanding the requirements of the job, and in cosideration of other workers and should not be unreasonably withheld.

Members extending their lunches is not something any union here would ever try and stop. Nor curtailing them, expect insofaras it never endangers the rights to a lunch break, and possibly insisting on a minimum period for such breaks..never a maximum period.

Members may represent themselves if they wish on any dispute, and often do. They cannot be sacked for doing so and have all the statory protections in law which exist to prevent this, many of which have been as a result of union input and lobbying.

In fact we do have the right to be off sick without a doctors note for a period of time. There is a statutory right to this. I am sure companies would love us all just to take off whatever time we claim to eb sick without doing so, and in fact such a note is certainly in our interests if we are to keep our jobs.

Within certain peramaters we have the right to adjust our hours and many people do. Restrictions to this are either statutory or by management dictat, not through any union activity or insistence.

And in fact we can extend our vacation under certain circustances if we have the leave to take, but again any restrictions to this is not of the unions doing.

And any worker may represent her or himself at any industrial tribunal with or without the assistance or blessing of their trade union.

Many of your statements I have heard from union members and people who are not members here too. They are based often on myth and misinformation. I wouldnt be surprised if what u r peddling is also myth and misinformation to a large degree about Canada and the US, whether by accident or design I cannot say.

We can keep this argument going forever Sol. Thats ok with me....

Now let me get back 2 my trade union negotiated right to a tea break even if it is coffee and a muffin!

[darkeyes]

Sorry Sol. Missed this one. No Trade union supports compulsory overtime and where it exists are, and have been trying to have this abolished. Compulsory overtime is more often used by non union employers though not exclusively.

[darkeyes]

Look Fran....

I'm getting weary of this.....

I can't seem to have any input into any issues on this forum in regards to money, religion or politics without you bashing me into the ground and telling me what it is you determine that I think, feel and believe, and how wrong I am for saying anything other than what YOU think is right.

You have judged me to be some evil person who would sell her soul with no caring for what happens in my lifetime to me or my kids, simply because I believe in making more out of my life than what it is.

I feel bad for you that you were hurt so much by someone with wealth....you have posted as much in these forums, so it's no secret.

But I am tired of you taking it out on me and Sol. We do not promote or partake in the bizarre view you have of wealthy people...and I feel sad for you that that is your only exposure to wealth, because those are NOT the only kind of wealthy people out there.

To assume that Sol and I are some sort of oppressers of the masses not worthy of any merit because we believe in giving people and hand UP, not a hand OUT, just because of some bad experience in your life, is so very short sighted on your part.

I started out in this thread simply talking about my first hand experiences with a government run health care, and how it has gone seriously down hill over the years, just offering a perspective......and I am attacked again for presenting my view, that just happens to be different than yours.

'Course, more fool me for continuing to engage in this rhetoric....but as a friend, I guess I thought that if we kind of "hashed it out" we would start to at least see each other's perspectives and the emotions would calm down, and perhaps we could agree to disagree........but that's not happening.

It seems to have hit a nerve with you.....and I am tired of being your target practice. I don't blame you...I could have pulled out of this at any point....it doesn't seem that you have that ability though, that somehow "the last word" is victory to you....

You can bash me til the cows come home, you can throw all your fancy words at me that you want, you can believe lies, you can create some imaginary justification for all or this.....but you will NEVER take my dignity.
I am attacking neither you or Sol, Flex, merely the ideas which you expound. If I had been attacking you and Sol as individuals my tone and content would have vastly different from that which I have used. Yes I have kept it going and shall do so if I wish to and its has value..but equally so have you two.. Its not that the last word is victory, it is simply my right in defence of my beliefs just as it is yours.

In fact I have been prepared to shut up long ago, but I am unablke to do so while I keep getting myths and misinformation being peddled about things in which I am a passionate a believer.

I agree we disagree. I have deliberately not fully answered your post however much I wish to. But for now I leave it...

[darkeyes]

Forgive me but I must respond one last time just to correct something you said Flex, because I am unable to let this pass. I was not hurt by someone who had wealth Flex. Bored certainly and hated the lifestyle and felt guilty and useless and a parasite. But Bri did not hurt me.. on the contrary. I broke his heart. If you read my posts in forums about my marriage and its end more carefully you would not have even raised the issue.

[CuddlyKate]

I am sorry but I cannot sit back an watch as Frances gets all the blame for the insecurities and troll like vaccuousness of others. Frances can be very thoughtless and selfish about herself and her personal life, but is meticulously compassionate about the injustice she sees in the world. As someone who knows her better than anyone else her marriage had nothing whatever to do with her opinions and her socialism except by experience to reinforce them. I do not agree with her on many issues and have a much more pragmatic approach to the world at large, but her idealism and her belief is based upon what she sees and what every day she experiences and learns.

Frances is argumentative, emotional and passionate, bloody minded if you prefer, often too much so for her own good, and sometimes for her own safety. On this and on other issues her idealism is to be commended. She does not see it as either silly or as unworkable as do many others and I love and give her credit for her belief in the eventual good sense of humanity and in the triumph of her vision of how the world should be. I do not share all of her ideals or her vision or even her optimism, but do share her compassion.

She wishes to be the enemy of no-one, but the enemy of any idea which preaches what she refers to as fascism of the soul.

It is not Frances alone who has kept this going but others who I know she has a great affection for and if they are so thin skinned and insecure as to take offence at a debate of ideas and ideology then she is better of without them. I find it deplorable that people who claim to be the friend of another, start an argument, press all the right buttons to keep that argument going and then put all the blame onto the other party to end the argument. Having read this thread regularly from its inception she is not guiltless, but by no stretch of the imagination are the trolls who claimed to be her friends either. I do not believe that for all her faults either of you are worthy of her.

[sammie19]

Kate, like you I have been engrossed in this little spat from early on. We both know Fran doesnt consider it a little spat and it gnaws away at her. But you are right in what you say. My only surprise is that so far she hasnt let fly with all guns blazing and her self control has been astonishing to say the least. You know that better than I do. I'm afraid my solitary contribution before now was a good bit less controlled but I believe justified even if like you she and I don't see eye to eye on so many things. Come to think of it, who does. lol. However on the subject of universal care, on this you couldn't put a blade of grass between us on the principle.

Kisses for Shiv and the bump. Much luv.

[darkeyes]

Will u 2 ole wimmen butt out... know yas tryin 2 help but if me needs ya help me shout huh??? luff yas both...an for Christs sake Sam keep that cuzzin of urs away from the pc 2.... all me needs is er shuvvin er ore in.... WW3 reely start then! Cant afford 2 lose ne more m8s.

Hows ya tum Kate?? Swell?? tee hee...Hows ya tummy Sam?? Got ridda 'bug' yet???? :bigrin:

[Solomon]

ok, this is bullshit

at no time did flex put the entire blame on fran

and if we wanted to be a troll, then we wouldn't have bothered to even attempt a friendship in the first place, let alone post actual honest opinions, ideas, and arguments that for the most part we thought were actually either encouraging or helping others including fran

you don't like what we say, then that's one thing, and it's fine to argue it

but as the rules say..... flame the idea if you must, but NOT the person

not to mention that this is a thread about a North American issue, so i'm totally confused as to why people from the UK seem to think that they have all the answers that North Americans should be practicing

[Vuarra]

Though I suppose you dont even accept climate change as reality, man made or othewise.


Fran, I don't support climate change as a sole result of human's existance; but I do support a better utilization of the planet's resources. Even though I support the same ends and the same means, does that mean I'm the enemy of nature because my intents are different?

Indeed, neither the USA model of healthcare, nor the Canadian one -- and I would suppose quite a few of the developed nations are similar -- are perfect. Trust me, I've been in a "grass is always greener" conversation last week, and it turns out that no one is happy with what they have, and they are trying to better themselves. Problem is, one person's better is another person's worse.

Can we please just agree to disagree, recognize that everyone is different yet the same, and get back to the sex talk?

[arana]

Wow, I could have swore this thread was about insurance. Having worked as a medical biller and had dealings with both U.S. AND Canada insurance companies (Both have their pros and cons), then later a victim of an insurance company I can only say this...insurance companies are only out for their best interest. Never feel 100% confident of what you have because odds are when you need it you're going to be in for a rude awakening. Be it health, home, automotive, anything. You are being sold so called "Peace of Mind" for when a tragedy or illness happens...and yes they will take a piece of your mind fighting them to get what you are due. Always read the fine print and know what you're getting...don't rely on what a representitive tells you is in the contract. You may have insurance that covers everything but there may also be a cap on how much they will cover and if you have a major illness or accident and need lots of treatments your insurance money could run out on you before you're better. As for home owners take note of what happened to people through the New Orleans floods and how screwed many of them got when they thought their insurance was going to cover things only to be fed a bunch of twisted excuses as to why they weren't covered. They got DP'd by the government AND insurance.
.........altho we need them, I am not a fan of insurance :devil: companies at all. :soapbox:

[darkeyes]

ok, this is bullshit

at no time did flex put the entire blame on fran

and if we wanted to be a troll, then we wouldn't have bothered to even attempt a friendship in the first place, let alone post actual honest opinions, ideas, and arguments that for the most part we thought were actually either encouraging or helping others including fran

you don't like what we say, then that's one thing, and it's fine to argue it

but as the rules say..... flame the idea if you must, but NOT the person

not to mention that this is a thread about a North American issue, so i'm totally confused as to why people from the UK seem to think that they have all the answers that North Americans should be practicingI have never accused you of being a troll and wont either. I dont agee with what you say, or Flex either and if its fine to argue about it why all the uppity and taking away of the football? I have as far as I have been able tried to as you say flame the idea, as indeed have you. Who has been most persuasive I leave to others to judge.

I will say this however. You may believe it to be a north american issue, but it is far more than that, for there exist people in other nations who would gladly make us more like the US, and it is to the credit of the vast majority of europeans and people from other societies where state run universal health care exists that they have been unable to raise their heads too far above the parapets. You may think we have no right to comment and argue upon what you believe is a purely north american issue, but I have at least as much right to do so on what I consider a humanitarian issue as your country, and mine for that matter has in invading another land based on lies and disinformation, or North americans remarking upon any other humanitarian issue in any other part of the globe. Your nation has imposed itself on the world in a way no other has ever been able to, and so much of what america does affects the entire planet however strange that may seem to you. I make no apologies for being concerned about much of this and for feeling I have the right to comment opon the affairs of the so called land of the free.

Socialism Sol is an international creed, aimed at uniting all of humanity in peace and tranquility and making our world a better place in which to live. Contrary to what you have suggested it is not a creed to stifle incentive, to make us all the same grey and boring people and to make everyone poor. You may hate it, loathe it, detest it. Thats fine, its an opinion. I happen to have a quite different opinion, and mine at least is based on some thing other than hatred and contempt for my fellow man. I do not consider that anything you have said at any time during any of this or in any other debate has been intended as helping me or anyone else. Nothing you have said has given me that impression. You're whole ethos has been and is on helping yourself. Helping others is an altruistic motive. You deny altruism exists, so what else am I to think?

I will say no more on this subject. Not because I can't but because it is a waste of breath. I do not like losing friends but it has always been a risk to be taken when opening up such a debate and getting so involved and such deep and complex issues where principle is involved do have a habit of getting in the way when friends take such differing views. Its life. Its happened to me before before and will happen again. I do not back off lightly, and in fact it is in some ways against my better judgement but I do so before I do say something I would truly regret, and out of respect for a friendship we once so recently had.

You will forgive me I hope if I do not extend this to any other thread which I feel requires comment.

[darkeyes]

Fran, I don't support climate change as a sole result of human's existance; but I do support a better utilization of the planet's resources. Even though I support the same ends and the same means, does that mean I'm the enemy of nature because my intents are different?

Indeed, neither the USA model of healthcare, nor the Canadian one -- and I would suppose quite a few of the developed nations are similar -- are perfect. Trust me, I've been in a "grass is always greener" conversation last week, and it turns out that no one is happy with what they have, and they are trying to better themselves. Problem is, one person's better is another person's worse.

Can we please just agree to disagree, recognize that everyone is different yet the same, and get back to the sex talk?
Vu have sed me peace... sex talk is back on...for now.... :bigrin:

[Azrael]

Some of the most overlooked victims of insurance companies are the mentally ill.
If you're in some kind of mental health crisis i.e. bipolar rapid cycling or flipping out from schizophrenia, you're pretty much screwed trying to get a referral to a psychiatrist. I was on the phone with my GP and the Aetna HMO for a solid month screaming for help until things got so bad I was involuntarily committed. I was denied referral on the grounds that constant panic attacks, manic flip outs and hallucinations were not a "life threatening condition". Unless your actually suicidal, you get stonewalled. The really messed up paradox is that once people reach that point, they don't seek help.
And pharmaceutical companies, well, you're at their mercy, too.
Case in point:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eli_Lilly_Controversy
http://zyprexakills.ath.cx/

Arrgh. Aetna fuckers :banghead:
Yeah, I know it's a tad off topic, but this is a major facet of the scam that is insurance. Plus it makes my Celtic blood boil and I needed to exorcise this.

[flexuality]

I have never accused you of being a troll and wont either. I dont agee with what you say, or Flex either and if its fine to argue about it why all the uppity and taking away of the football? I have as far as I have been able tried to as you say flame the idea, as indeed have you. Who has been most persuasive I leave to others to judge.

I will say this however. You may believe it to be a north american issue, but it is far more than that, for there exist people in other nations who would gladly make us more like the US, and it is to the credit of the vast majority of europeans and people from other societies where state run universal health care exists that they have been unable to raise their heads too far above the parapets. You may think we have no right to comment and argue upon what you believe is a purely north american issue, but I have at least as much right to do so on what I consider a humanitarian issue as your country, and mine for that matter has in invading another land based on lies and disinformation, or North americans remarking upon any other humanitarian issue in any other part of the globe. Your nation has imposed itself on the world in a way no other has ever been able to, and so much of what america does affects the entire planet however strange that may seem to you. I make no apologies for being concerned about much of this and for feeling I have the right to comment opon the affairs of the so called land of the free.

Socialism Sol is an international creed, aimed at uniting all of humanity in peace and tranquility and making our world a better place in which to live. Contrary to what you have suggested it is not a creed to stifle incentive, to make us all the same grey and boring people and to make everyone poor. You may hate it, loathe it, detest it. Thats fine, its an opinion. I happen to have a quite different opinion, and mine at least is based on some thing other than hatred and contempt for my fellow man. I do not consider that anything you have said at any time during any of this or in any other debate has been intended as helping me or anyone else. Nothing you have said has given me that impression. You're whole ethos has been and is on helping yourself. Helping others is an altruistic motive. You deny altruism exists, so what else am I to think?

I will say no more on this subject. Not because I can't but because it is a waste of breath. I do not like losing friends but it has always been a risk to be taken when opening up such a debate and getting so involved and such deep and complex issues where principle is involved do have a habit of getting in the way when friends take such differing views. Its life. Its happened to me before before and will happen again. I do not back off lightly, and in fact it is in some ways against my better judgement but I do so before I do say something I would truly regret, and out of respect for a friendship we once so recently had.

You will forgive me I hope if I do not extend this to any other thread which I feel requires comment.
??????????????

[Michael623]

Wow, I could have swore this thread was about insurance. Having worked as a medical biller and had dealings with both U.S. AND Canada insurance companies (Both have their pros and cons), then later a victim of an insurance company I can only say this...insurance companies are only out for their best interest. Never feel 100% confident of what you have because odds are when you need it you're going to be in for a rude awakening. Be it health, home, automotive, anything. You are being sold so called "Peace of Mind" for when a tragedy or illness happens...and yes they will take a piece of your mind fighting them to get what you are due. Always read the fine print and know what you're getting...don't rely on what a representitive tells you is in the contract. You may have insurance that covers everything but there may also be a cap on how much they will cover and if you have a major illness or accident and need lots of treatments your insurance money could run out on you before you're better. As for home owners take note of what happened to people through the New Orleans floods and how screwed many of them got when they thought their insurance was going to cover things only to be fed a bunch of twisted excuses as to why they weren't covered. They got DP'd by the government AND insurance.
.........altho we need them, I am not a fan of insurance :devil: companies at all. :soapbox:


Very well said, Arana. Insurance companies are the only companies where it is legal to discriminate. That, in my opinion, pretty much says it all!

[biwords]

That said, we had a $25,000 flood at home last year and our insurance company (Pilot) was a model of integrity and efficiency, so....I'll never balk at paying a premium again! And no, I've no interest in the company, except as a policyholder.

[flexuality]

I am sorry but I cannot sit back an watch as Frances gets all the blame for the insecurities and troll like vaccuousness of others. Frances can be very thoughtless and selfish about herself and her personal life, but is meticulously compassionate about the injustice she sees in the world. As someone who knows her better than anyone else her marriage had nothing whatever to do with her opinions and her socialism except by experience to reinforce them. I do not agree with her on many issues and have a much more pragmatic approach to the world at large, but her idealism and her belief is based upon what she sees and what every day she experiences and learns.

Frances is argumentative, emotional and passionate, bloody minded if you prefer, often too much so for her own good, and sometimes for her own safety. On this and on other issues her idealism is to be commended. She does not see it as either silly or as unworkable as do many others and I love and give her credit for her belief in the eventual good sense of humanity and in the triumph of her vision of how the world should be. I do not share all of her ideals or her vision or even her optimism, but do share her compassion.

She wishes to be the enemy of no-one, but the enemy of any idea which preaches what she refers to as fascism of the soul.

It is not Frances alone who has kept this going but others who I know she has a great affection for and if they are so thin skinned and insecure as to take offence at a debate of ideas and ideology then she is better of without them. I find it deplorable that people who claim to be the friend of another, start an argument, press all the right buttons to keep that argument going and then put all the blame onto the other party to end the argument. Having read this thread regularly from its inception she is not guiltless, but by no stretch of the imagination are the trolls who claimed to be her friends either. I do not believe that for all her faults either of you are worthy of her.
Worthy or not, unless you are fran it was never your decision to make.

[flexuality]

Kate, like you I have been engrossed in this little spat from early on. We both know Fran doesnt consider it a little spat and it gnaws away at her. But you are right in what you say. My only surprise is that so far she hasnt let fly with all guns blazing and her self control has been astonishing to say the least. You know that better than I do. I'm afraid my solitary contribution before now was a good bit less controlled but I believe justified even if like you she and I don't see eye to eye on so many things. Come to think of it, who does. lol. However on the subject of universal care, on this you couldn't put a blade of grass between us on the principle.

Kisses for Shiv and the bump. Much luv.
This was never your decision either.

[flexuality]

I have never accused you of being a troll and wont either.

You didn't have to. Your minions did it for you.



I will say no more on this subject. Not because I can't but because it is a waste of breath. I do not like losing friends but it has always been a risk to be taken when opening up such a debate and getting so involved and such deep and complex issues where principle is involved do have a habit of getting in the way when friends take such differing views. Its life. Its happened to me before before and will happen again. I do not back off lightly, and in fact it is in some ways against my better judgement but I do so before I do say something I would truly regret, and out of respect for a friendship we once so recently had.

You will forgive me I hope if I do not extend this to any other thread which I feel requires comment.

I feel sad for you...I really do.

[Solomon]

As flex alluded to, we've decided that we're going to be the foolish snobs that we're accused of being, because we're sick and tired of hanging around with employees that are focused on survival right now. There's nothing wrong with it, it's just not us.

We've got a plane to catch for Amsterdam, keep up the great work ya'll!

[darkeyes]

You didn't have to. Your minions did it for you.


I feel sad for you...I really do.

Flex think of me as you will.. they are certainly not my minions and NEVER do I wish 2 hear a word of criticism of Sam and certainly not Kate - ever. I said I would say no more on the subject and I shall hold to that, but when you attack friends of mine who I love dearly you go over the score. That I will not stand for. If you knew them then you would know they are not my minions. They can and do think for themselves.. that is hardly the attitude of a minion.

I do not wish a confrontation now on the merits or otherwise of people I love, but on that..if thats your wish I will give you an argument..and this time I shall not hold my peace, but as good friends do shall go to the ends of the earth in their defence. Attacking Sam is one thing which I shall not accept, but when you attack Kate, however timidly that I find unforgivable. You show both an ignorance of my history and a lack of common sense, and no 1 attacks or criticises my friends with impunity without getting a rocket up their backside and I warn u now to back off.

[darkeyes]

...and I add here and now..when it comes to Sam I will have the last word...but when it comes to Kate.. the last word isnt enough...... bad move.. be warned....

[biwords]

Or maybe we just have absolutely no interest in Canada period. Period. Period. Or any other country, really.

I am tempted to reply, Good! Then stop invading them.

However, that would be shallow. And the truth is, I admire the US far too much to judge it by faux-patriotic outbursts like yours.

[Azrael]

I am tempted to reply, Good! Then stop invading them.

However, that would be shallow. And the truth is, I admire the US far too much to judge it by faux-patriotic outbursts like yours.
Sir, I assure you we're not all like this armchair quarterback.

[biwords]

Heck, I know that, Az! and for every 'kiss my red-white-and-blue-ass American', there's a Canadian whose self-esteem apparently depends on cultivating an unearned sense of superiority towards Americans.

Regarding the flex-and-Sol vs. Fran/Sam/Kate spat, it's painful for us onlookers to see good folks taking chunks out of each other. All the parties want what's best for people. One party thinks that can be best achieved by encouraging individual initiative and self-reliance, the other by an international system that takes care of everyone's needs. Both views have strengths and weaknesses. But this is (merely) an argument about means, not ends.

For myself, I am the sworn enemy of power, wealth and privilege, and will continue as such until I acquire any.

[darkeyes]

Heck, I know that, Az! and for every 'kiss my red-white-and-blue-ass American', there's a Canadian whose self-esteem apparently depends on cultivating an unearned sense of superiority towards Americans.

Regarding the flex-and-Sol vs. Fran/Sam/Kate spat, it's painful for us onlookers to see good folks taking chunks out of each other. All the parties want what's best for people. One party thinks that can be best achieved by encouraging individual initiative and self-reliance, the other by an international system that takes care of everyone's needs. Both views have strengths and weaknesses. But this is (merely) an argument about means, not ends.

For myself, I am the sworn enemy of power, wealth and privilege, and will continue as such until I acquire any.Kate and Sam are out of this Wordsie....they sed ther peace an me has told em 2 stay out..this is now down 2 me.... an it no longer bout ne health system or ne otha political issue.........

[Kittengirl]

I am tempted to reply, Good! Then stop invading them.

However, that would be shallow. And the truth is, I admire the US far too much to judge it by faux-patriotic outbursts like yours.


LOL - we only like to invade countries that provide something of value - like oil.

So don't you worry - since Canada provides nothing of importance or value to the world (except a border point for the Muslimites to enter our lovely country, which is of value to them, I suppose), you are quite safe from our advances... lmao

Funny to me how people in different countries are always taking whacks at the US. It's like high school and the nobodies hating the head cheerleader and the football quarterback. Don't you ever get tired of hating us because you want to BE us? Try cleaning up your own governments and your own policies before you go looking at us. But oh, *gasp* no one wants to turn it inwards, do they? ;)

[biwords]

LOL - we only like to invade countries that provide something of value - like oil.

So don't you worry - since Canada provides nothing of importance or value to the world (except a border point for the Muslimites to enter our lovely country, which is of value to them, I suppose), you are quite safe from our advances... lmao

Funny to me how people in different countries are always taking whacks at the US. It's like high school and the nobodies hating the head cheerleader and the football quarterback. Don't you ever get tired of hating us because you want to BE us? Try cleaning up your own governments and your own policies before you go looking at us. But oh, *gasp* no one wants to turn it inwards, do they? ;)

Sigh.......Canada is in fact a major oil producer, but since you've already said you aren't interested in anything outside the US, you couldn't have been expected to know that. Also, I made quite clear in my posting above that I'm prepared to 'turn it inwards'.

[darkeyes]

LOL - we only like to invade countries that provide something of value - like oil.

So don't you worry - since Canada provides nothing of importance or value to the world (except a border point for the Muslimites to enter our lovely country, which is of value to them, I suppose), you are quite safe from our advances... lmao

Funny to me how people in different countries are always taking whacks at the US. It's like high school and the nobodies hating the head cheerleader and the football quarterback. Don't you ever get tired of hating us because you want to BE us? Try cleaning up your own governments and your own policies before you go looking at us. But oh, *gasp* no one wants to turn it inwards, do they? ;)
Dont hate cha ..ne thin but..jus don like bullies..not u butya gov...didn like it wen me reads the history of me own country rulin the roost an throwin its weight about...so don expect me 2 like it wen ur lot or ne 1 else duz eitha!

[Doggie_Wood]

...................This just make you the classic "ugly amerikan" the world loves to despise...

You didnt even read enough to see that my pro Canadian stance does not make me anti American.

I AM anti "Profit at all cost" as this sociopathic behavior is an obscenity that needs to be addressed.

Please read with care comments made regarding salary levels of corporate executives.....thank you..nuff said...

Although I am against "profit gouging" - America IS the land of democracy and capitalism. It is our basis of life as a free society. And i beg you to remember that it has always been the USA who has always been the most generous country throughout the entire world with food, money, support (aid) and who also distributes technology for advancements.

Although all "isms" of governmental establishments are doomed to fail eventually, capitalism does lend itself to the most individual freedoms.
Yet freedom is not truely free. As in all forms of societies, certain sacrifices are required to maintain a sembalance of civility within that society

Now - if we could all agree to sumise a society based on just the finer possitive aspects in a cummulative array of socialism, capitalism and communism, I beleive that this would be the closest to an Eutopian society that could exsist.

Or could it exsist? Naw!! Too many individuals in the mix. So I will just stick to the Red, White and Blue. If you don't like us "Amerikans" - Go FUCK OFF!!

:doggie:

[arana]

Wow, for such a friendly lot of people, this thread sure has become very hostile. Hate only breeds more hate.

[the mage]

The turn of this thread is the inevitable outcome of human discussion when it gets turned to rich v/s poor.
Who has the "right" to consume in vast quantities of (?) and who does not.
We can't help the sick sense of entitlement bred into us, its our culture, which was created by profit takers.

The true issue is indeed NOT complex, it is simple and I can break it down for you all.
Our capitalist system and its culture of consumption was created and conceived and designed to grow continuously. It is an open ended system. Status quo is never good enough. Growth is a constant need or the system collapses.

The catch is that planet earth is a CLOSED system. We cannot continue to operate as in the past, we have sucked the closed system of energy supply dry. That is going to necessitate a systemic change in the core of our financial world. What was at one time a local issue where the company town closes and dies with in industrial change or (sic) the mine closes, is now GLOBAL in scale. Water shortages and storms (not covered by your insurance) are already altering the economy. That will accelerate.

-------------------------------------------------------
Yet, I would say to you that any one of you who owns many possessions is not one iota happier than a poverty stricken man who is in love.

[Kittengirl]

Sigh.......Canada is in fact a major oil producer, but since you've already said you aren't interested in anything outside the US, you couldn't have been expected to know that. Also, I made quite clear in my posting above that I'm prepared to 'turn it inwards'.

Actually, according to the world rankings, US is #3 in the world of oil production, whereas Canada falls at #7. So, if that is your idea of a great contribution, try again...

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/topworldtables1_2.html

Oh, and we already have maple trees and hockey in the US.

NEXT?!

*sigh*. It really is so tedious when all of these lesser countries continue to take shots at America. The jealousy is sooo palpable. But we love it - because we ARE Americans, and we know we rule the world! woo hoo! :)

[Azrael]

*sigh*. It really is so tedious when all of these lesser countries continue to take shots at America. The jealousy is sooo palpable. But we love it - because we ARE Americans, and we know we rule the world! woo hoo! :)
I do hate to interrupt what has turned into an international pissing contest, but I am disgusted beyond words. America was founded on principles that you obviously don't care a whit about. Rule of law, anyone?
I chalk you up to another mental casualty of US global hegemony and groupthink. You would have made a fine brownshirt had you lived back then. They loved sheeple who didn't question anything :disgust:

That being said, DEFUND THE WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh, we also have the highest population of incarcerated people in the world. You know what that means, WE'RE NUMBER ONE! :rolleyes:

Go back to waving your bloodstained flag and watching Bill O'reilly.

[biwords]

Actually, according to the world rankings, US is #3 in the world of oil production, whereas Canada falls at #7. So, if that is your idea of a great contribution, try again...

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/topworldtables1_2.html

Oh, and we already have maple trees and hockey in the US.

NEXT?!

*sigh*. It really is so tedious when all of these lesser countries continue to take shots at America. The jealousy is sooo palpable. But we love it - because we ARE Americans, and we know we rule the world! woo hoo! :)

Sweetie, if America had been built by minds like yours, it would trail Bangladesh. I didn't say that Canada produced more oil than the US, you had said that Canada produced nothing that Americans wanted. In fact, next to China, Canada is the US's largest trading partner. You appear to know as little about your own country as any other. Some 'patriot'!

[darkeyes]

Actually, according to the world rankings, US is #3 in the world of oil production, whereas Canada falls at #7. So, if that is your idea of a great contribution, try again...

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/topworldtables1_2.html

Oh, and we already have maple trees and hockey in the US.

NEXT?!

*sigh*. It really is so tedious when all of these lesser countries continue to take shots at America. The jealousy is sooo palpable. But we love it - because we ARE Americans, and we know we rule the world! woo hoo! :)
Sigh... the arrogance of fools .... thank eff not every American is such as this daft little girl, for it is by such idiotic drivel and lack of restraint which makes the world have pot shots at the US. Lip zippin time babes!!! Jingoism is not attractive hun....

[arana]

Actually, according to the world rankings, US is #3 in the world of oil production, whereas Canada falls at #7. So, if that is your idea of a great contribution, try again...

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/topworldtables1_2.html

Oh, and we already have maple trees and hockey in the US.

NEXT?!

*sigh*. It really is so tedious when all of these lesser countries continue to take shots at America. The jealousy is sooo palpable. But we love it - because we ARE Americans, and we know we rule the world! woo hoo! :)
There is a difference between being proud of your country and being arrogant and closed minded. If you really think they are such lesser countries, why don't you show them the way with some class and graciousness?

[sammie19]

When I was at school my Modern Studies teacher explained to us that great power does endow greatness upon a people, nor does a lack of it deprive a people of it. Much luv.

[Kittengirl]

Sweetie, if America had been built by minds like yours, it would trail Bangladesh. I didn't say that Canada produced more oil than the US, you had said that Canada produced nothing that Americans wanted. In fact, next to China, Canada is the US's largest trading partner. You appear to know as little about your own country as any other. Some 'patriot'!


Um - you said that Canada was a MAJOR OIL PRODUCER. I suppose by Canadian standards, you would be, as you like to inflate what little, if any, contributions you feel you have - like maple syrup or Pam Anderson. But to the rest of the world - NOT. Trading partner? Thought we were talking oil - but OK, feel free to say what you like to make your paltry point. Because at the end of the day, I am still an American, and you are not. And we both know you wish you were... :)

And to you AZRAEL - let me guess, you are CLEARLY an illegal immigrant or someone who snuck over from Haiti or Cuba, right? Oh perhaps it's another paranoid delusion (you were not seriously involuntarily commited, were you? Wow, if you were you have some nerve calling ME a mental casualty of ANYTHING - lol...) Because I am pretty damn certain you are not white, and not a REAL American (or perhaps just skipping meds and nuts). No real American would talk the way you do about our great country... which was great, until we started letting every illegal in to ruin it.

See, our healthcare system was fine until the plethora of illegals and welfare recipients started depleting it and ruining it for those of us who do have jobs, who do have taxes, and can afford insurance.

[Azrael]

I am of Irish Catholic and German extraction, 4th generation and 3rd, respectively. You have demonstrated not only appalling xenophobia, but a complete ignorance of history. This country was founded by white aristocratic slave owning males who didn't want to pay their taxes. It was bulit on the blood and labor of immigrants. There are no native Americans, not even the indians who crossed the land bridge. We are all boat people. That includes you. Oh, and by the way, stupid people are crazy. I'm eccentric :bigrin:

[holybane]

By the gods, I thought we were talking about healthcare. While I find social status based on your work and the work of your ancestors grand and all, people who die when they're 22 from cancer because they can't afford treatments or healthcare (often times because of such a debilitating illness), they just don't see it along those lines. Healthcare can be universal or affordable, as long as those who need it, can have it. :)

Corruption is everywhere, but a little less where it counts can make a big difference.

:2cents: :bigrin:

[arana]

OMG I can't believe some of the words coming out of people! :eek: Not American because you're not white??? A majority of people overseas giving their lives for this country are not white and they proudly defend it.

As for not needing Canada, I don't think anyone would be on this site if it weren't for Canada since this IS a Canadian based website. Geez!

[FalconAngel]

For those of us here in South Florida, We have a very stilted view of Canadians (mostly French Canadians as they are the most arrogant of the seasonal residents we get here), and that view is not good.

Not to say that Canadians are bad...quite the contrary, many of us know that these are the dregs and not the majority of our northern brethren.

Also, as many of you who are over 40 remember a little record back in the early 70's about America, made by a Canadian broadcaster (wish I could find a copy of it). In it, he stated one very important fact; That Americans have gone out of our way to help our neighbors around the world (even our Cold War enemies), but when bad things happened to us, not one of those countries even offered help, except Canada, who has helped us out and been a better neighbor than Mexico.
At least we have reciprocity laws with Canada. Try to get a fleeing felon out of Mexico..........Fat chance.

Fact of the matter is that no matter where you are from, there is good and bad. I have met a lot of good people from all over the world and, unfortunately, also met a lot of bad people from all over the world.
Even here in the US, I have met a number of people who disguise their prejudice as patriotism. That is a load of crap. A real Patriot doesn't use their love of their country as a disguise for prejudice. They love their country and look out for it's welfare without regard to race issues, gender issues or sexuality issues. A Patriot looks at what is best for all of the people in their country as a whole.

I am a Patriot. I love my country and can respect the contributions of our allies and Neighbors, but, as a patriot, I will not kiss anyone's ass to protect their feelings. I will be honest about things and admit that we are not perfect, stand up for the the things that are right and fight against that which is wrong.
I believe that, as imperfect as our country is, our system is the best chance to protect freedom in the world. It does not make us the world police, nor does it make us the world's savior. It does give us the serious responsibility to stand as a beacon of liberty; an example of the best of what humanity can accomplish in this world. Unfortunately, our current leadership has forgotten that. And as long as our patriotic citizens are vigilant, it will change for the better.

Now can we stop this pissing contest and just own up to the fact that all of the countries represented by our membership have their good points and bad points.

[darkeyes]

OMG I can't believe some of the words coming out of people! :eek: Not American because you're not white??? A majority of people overseas giving their lives for this country are not white and they proudly defend it.

As for not needing Canada, I don't think anyone would be on this site if it weren't for Canada since this IS a Canadian based website. Geez!Humanity is interedependent on each other Ran... no matter where we come or the colour of our skin, we need each other. It is just a pity so much of the world has forgotten that and if it hadnt then maybe, just maybe we wouldnt be in the sorry mess we are in today.

[darkeyes]

For those of us here in South Florida, We have a very stilted view of Canadians (mostly French Canadians as they are the most arrogant of the seasonal residents we get here), and that view is not good.

Not to say that Canadians are bad...quite the contrary, many of us know that these are the dregs and not the majority of our northern brethren.

Also, as many of you who are over 40 remember a little record back in the early 70's about America, made by a Canadian broadcaster (wish I could find a copy of it). In it, he stated one very important fact; That Americans have gone out of our way to help our neighbors around the world (even our Cold War enemies), but when bad things happened to us, not one of those countries even offered help, except Canada, who has helped us out and been a better neighbor than Mexico.
At least we have reciprocity laws with Canada. Try to get a fleeing felon out of Mexico..........Fat chance.

Fact of the matter is that no matter where you are from, there is good and bad. I have met a lot of good people from all over the world and, unfortunately, also met a lot of bad people from all over the world.
Even here in the US, I have met a number of people who disguise their prejudice as patriotism. That is a load of crap. A real Patriot doesn't use their love of their country as a disguise for prejudice. They love their country and look out for it's welfare without regard to race issues, gender issues or sexuality issues. A Patriot looks at what is best for all of the people in their country as a whole.

I am a Patriot. I love my country and can respect the contributions of our allies and Neighbors, but, as a patriot, I will not kiss anyone's ass to protect their feelings. I will be honest about things and admit that we are not perfect, stand up for the the things that are right and fight against that which is wrong.
I believe that, as imperfect as our country is, our system is the best chance to protect freedom in the world. It does not make us the world police, nor does it make us the world's savior. It does give us the serious responsibility to stand as a beacon of liberty; an example of the best of what humanity can accomplish in this world. Unfortunately, our current leadership has forgotten that. And as long as our patriotic citizens are vigilant, it will change for the better.

Now can we stop this pissing contest and just own up to the fact that all of the countries represented by our membership have their good points and bad points.Hun you raise some really sound points and then kind of mess it up with your knowledge of history and and by wrapping yourself up in the the flag. Its a problem with most of humanity and so it is a criticism but not a huge one. Merely a gentle and loving warning that its how some in every country like it to be and to keep questioning.

Patriotism so often distorts our view of the world and even our own country and certainly those in the world who are different. Dr Johnson said that patriotism is the refuge of the scoundrel and is a view I tend to share though not uncritically. It is but one reason if I am a patriot of any kind my patriotism is a belief in and love of my fellow human beings, and love my country as I certainly do, am neither blinded to its faults or do I accept my country's right to insist that I rally round the flag simply because people think I should. When things are morally wrong and unjustified then patriotism cannot alter this fact however much people may like it to be. You question things and that is terrific and long may it be so. If patriotism exists then it is the true patriot who will question his or her nations doings and attempt to put them right. It is just a pity so many take what their media and government tells them at face value.

[raistkit]

wow this is getting out of hand. thought the issue was healthcare. speaking of medical procedures. does anyone else think our kitten needs to be declawed? :2cents:

kit

[sammie19]

Hun you raise some really sound points and then kind of mess it up with your knowledge of history and and by wrapping yourself up in the the flag. Its a problem with most of humanity and so it is a criticism but not a huge one. Merely a gentle and loving warning that its how some in every country like it to be and to keep questioning.

Patriotism so often distorts our view of the world and even our own country and certainly those in the world who are different. Dr Johnson said that patriotism is the refuge of the scoundrel and is a view I tend to share though not uncritically. It is but one reason if I am a patriot of any kind my patriotism is a belief in and love of my fellow human beings, and love my country as I certainly do, am neither blinded to its faults or do I accept my country's right to insist that I rally round the flag simply because people think I should. When things are morally wrong and unjustified then patriotism cannot alter this fact however much people may like it to be. You question things and that is terrific and long may it be so. If patriotism exists then it is the true patriot who will question his or her nations doings and attempt to put them right. It is just a pity so many take what their media and government tells them at face value.Ahem. I hate to ruin your illusion of yourself hun, but I have heard about you at Scotland football games and saw you in the pub when we played France.

[darkeyes]

Football don count Sam... a ne ways wotya talkin bout..me acts the prefect lady at football matches..... :tong:

[biwords]

In your earlier post you noted that Canada was #7 among the world's oil producers. So "major oil producer" is perfectly accurate. I didn't say we were Saudi Arabia. And no, the subject wasn't oil, the subject was your ill-informed remark that the US derives nothing of importance from Canada. It was therefore relevant to point out that Canada is (with the exception of China, and that only recently) the US's largest trading partner.

Got it?

Now, that said, there's no point protracting debates with trolls, and trolls who distinguish between "whites" and "real Americans" are particularly unpleasant. Why don't you take up the last point with the many non-whites serving in the Marines, say? or are they not patriotic enough for you?

[fishfry29]

I kinna thought the thread was about comparing the Canadian health care system with that of the USA. It seems the concervatives complain about having a Government run system, yet think dealing with the beaurocacy of private insurance companies a blessing. Change companies? Find one that will insure you with pre-existing conditions, or even one with rates that a average person can afford. Fewer and fewer American businesses can afford health care for their employees, and so many employees are now paying the major part of the premiums. We in the USA have a system where the poorer can get care. (after the red tape is finished) the wealthy dont care, as they can afford it, and the working stiff in the middle pays all the bills. I dont know of any concervative who complaines about Govt. interferance refusing Medicare when they are elegable. I pay almost $900 a month for health insurance, healthcare is a right of all citizins, not a privlidge just for those that can afford it.

[Doggie_Wood]

For those of us here in South Florida, We have a very stilted view of Canadians (mostly French Canadians as they are the most arrogant of the seasonal residents we get here), and that view is not good.

Not to say that Canadians are bad...quite the contrary, many of us know that these are the dregs and not the majority of our northern brethren..

I have found that to be true of the French Canadians I have met in Eastern Canada. Not all, but a good many Fr Cans are arrogant. They don't like the French and want nothing to do with them - or each other. Go figure.


Also, as many of you who are over 40 remember a little record back in the early 70's about America, made by a Canadian broadcaster (wish I could find a copy of it). In it, he stated one very important fact; That Americans have gone out of our way to help our neighbors around the world (even our Cold War enemies), but when bad things happened to us, not one of those countries even offered help, except Canada, who has helped us out and been a better neighbor than Mexico.
At least we have reciprocity laws with Canada. Try to get a fleeing felon out of Mexico..........Fat chance..

With this I most whole heartedly agree brother. Canada has been a good neighbor ..... but their Border Guards hav no sence of homor at all!


Fact of the matter is that no matter where you are from, there is good and bad. ............................. A real Patriot doesn't use their love of their country as a disguise for prejudice. They love their country and look out for it's welfare without regard to race issues, gender issues or sexuality issues. A Patriot looks at what is best for all of the people in their country as a whole..

Hooooo! Haaaa!


I am a Patriot. I love my country and can respect the contributions of our allies and Neighbors, but, as a patriot, I will not kiss anyone's ass to protect their feelings. I will be honest about things and admit that we are not perfect, stand up for the the things that are right and fight against that which is wrong.
I believe that, as imperfect as our country is, our system is the best chance to protect freedom in the world. It does not make us the world police, nor does it make us the world's savior. It does give us the serious responsibility to stand as a beacon of liberty; an example of the best of what humanity can accomplish in this world. Unfortunately, our current leadership has forgotten that. And as long as our patriotic citizens are vigilant, it will change for the better..

I salute you for such a well said volly


Now can we stop this pissing contest and just own up to the fact that all of the countries represented by our membership have their good points and bad points.

Amen

[darkeyes]

I have found that to be true of the French Canadians I have met in Eastern Canada. Not all, but a good many Fr Cans are arrogant. They don't like the French and want nothing to do with them - or each other. Go figure.



With this I most whole heartedly agree brother. Canada has been a good neighbor ..... but their Border Guards hav no sence of homor at all!



Hooooo! Haaaa!



I salute you for such a well said volly



AmenHave only ever met 1 french Canadian so I cant say, except it may be true. She was ratha yummie an me misread er signals completely cos she sed no!!! I ask ya!

Regardin their border guards..they mus recruit em from same place the UK gets ther peeps..jeez wotta miserable humourlesss lot they r... an if they smiles ther faces wud crack!!! An courtesy aint summat they wer eva taught!!!

[biwords]

French Canadians are another breed entirely. As they never tire of reminding us.

[Kittengirl]

In your earlier post you noted that Canada was #7 among the world's oil producers. So "major oil producer" is perfectly accurate. I didn't say we were Saudi Arabia. And no, the subject wasn't oil, the subject was your ill-informed remark that the US derives nothing of importance from Canada. It was therefore relevant to point out that Canada is (with the exception of China, and that only recently) the US's largest trading partner.

Got it?

Now, that said, there's no point protracting debates with trolls, and trolls who distinguish between "whites" and "real Americans" are particularly unpleasant. Why don't you take up the last point with the many non-whites serving in the Marines, say? or are they not patriotic enough for you?


Wow - you are still trying SO hard to compete with the great US of A. Really grasping at any ol little straw to try and play with the big boys. It's so funny - just ADMIT you want to be one of us. You're like the nerd who keeps taking shots at the Quarterback - you hate him, because you secretly want to BE him. I get that - jealousy is what motivates most attacks on the US...

And my comment was that Canada produces nothing of value TO THE WORLD. (Try reading for comprehension). You tried to say you were a MAJOR OIL PRODUCER (not!!!). And you have yet to prove that you do... :)

[Azrael]

Wow - you are still trying SO hard to compete with the great US of A. Really grasping at any ol little straw to try and play with the big boys. It's so funny - just ADMIT you want to be one of us. You're like the nerd who keeps taking shots at the Quarterback - you hate him, because you secretly want to BE him. I get that - jealousy is what motivates most attacks on the US...

And my comment was that Canada produces nothing of value TO THE WORLD. (Try reading for comprehension). You tried to say you were a MAJOR OIL PRODUCER (not!!!). And you have yet to prove that you do... :)
No, what's at issue here is you and your appalling racism. Way to beat around the bush. Funny how Americans can rant forever and still say NOTHING.

[biwords]

Wow - you are still trying SO hard to compete with the great US of A. Really grasping at any ol little straw to try and play with the big boys. It's so funny - just ADMIT you want to be one of us. You're like the nerd who keeps taking shots at the Quarterback - you hate him, because you secretly want to BE him. I get that - jealousy is what motivates most attacks on the US...

And my comment was that Canada produces nothing of value TO THE WORLD. (Try reading for comprehension). You tried to say you were a MAJOR OIL PRODUCER (not!!!). And you have yet to prove that you do... :)

Not trying to compete at all, pseudo-patriot. And I have nothing against the US, quite the contrary. Yes, #7 in the world entitles Canada to the rank of major oil producer, unless you want to get into meaningless arguments about what 'major' means.

You are a truly lousy ambassador for your country -- the Ugly American personified.

[darkeyes]

Californian Kittengirls produce nothing of note except the giving of a good laugh 2 a little Scots tart and her m8s around the world.... I suppose that can be considered valuable in itself...:tong: :bigrin:

[the mage]

Ah do beleve ur goat is bein got.

[Azrael]

Ah do beleve ur goat is bein got.
True enough. I'm done.

[Kittengirl]

Not trying to compete at all, pseudo-patriot. And I have nothing against the US, quite the contrary. Yes, #7 in the world entitles Canada to the rank of major oil producer, unless you want to get into meaningless arguments about what 'major' means.

You are a truly lousy ambassador for your country -- the Ugly American personified.

MUAH!!! Kisses, honey! Keep hating all you want! Because we all know you are just soooo jealous you're not an American. I can't say I blame you. (And #7 means you rank FAR below the US, and that's all that matters...)

Question for ya though. Now with hockey over, what do you all do for fun, except sit around and take shots at the ONE country you wish you were a citizen of? :) LMAO!!!!

And I'm not trying to be an Ambassadress, hon. I am trying to make sure the likes of you never visit. It's like looking behind the solid door - you REALLY have no idea how wonderful it is on the other side, you can only imagine, which is why you continue to hate.... :)

Pardon me - I have to go fix the flag out front. :) That is, right after I pay my illegal Mexicans to clean my home, fill up my Hummer with hi-test, fully ignore all world events as they relate to all of the other lesser countries and then hit a Minuteman Militia Meeting. :)

And for the REST of you, join the Bione in Canada and continue to hate the US and everything about us, as you also wish you were part of THE greatest country in the world. We actually really LOVE stirring you up, as it is sooo easy to do! Continue to hate, continue to to talk about us - you just make us famous, peeps. :)

[biwords]

True enough. I'm done.

Moi aussi.

[Doggie_Wood]

MUAH!!! Kisses, honey! Keep hating all you want! Because we all know you are just soooo jealous you're not an American. I can't say I blame you. (And #7 means you rank FAR below the US, and that's all that matters...)

Question for ya though. Now with hockey over, what do you all do for fun, except sit around and take shots at the ONE country you wish you were a citizen of? :) LMAO!!!!

And I'm not trying to be an Ambassadress, hon. I am trying to make sure the likes of you never visit. It's like looking behind the solid door - you REALLY have no idea how wonderful it is on the other side, you can only imagine, which is why you continue to hate.... :)

Pardon me - I have to go fix the flag out front. :) That is, right after I pay my illegal Mexicans to clean my home, fill up my Hummer with hi-test, fully ignore all world events as they relate to all of the other lesser countries and then hit a Minuteman Militia Meeting. :)

And for the REST of you, join the Bione in Canada and continue to hate the US and everything about us, as you also wish you were part of THE greatest country in the world. We actually really LOVE stirring you up, as it is sooo easy to do! Continue to hate, continue to to talk about us - you just make us famous, peeps. :)

I am truely gratefull that most Americans aren't like you. It's the likes of you that give America a bad rep and why peeps of other countries get a bad taste in there mouths. :eek: Girl, you been breathin the smog too long. You need to come up for some clean air to get you head on straight. :2cents:
:doggie: Born and raised in The Republic of Texas, USA. You can't get any more Red, White, and Blue as that hon!

[Kittengirl]

I am truely gratefull that most Americans aren't like you. It's the likes of you that give America a bad rep and why peeps of other countries get a bad taste in there mouths. :eek: Girl, you been breathin the smog too long. You need to come up for some clean air to get you head on straight. :2cents:
:doggie: Born and raised in The Republic of Texas, USA. You can't get any more Red, White, and Blue as that hon!


Let me guess - you're an illegal, right?

[darkeyes]

Let me guess - you're an illegal, right?
If u standard of legals b better off wiv the illegals...... an werya been?? Daddy not letya out 2 play??? Sensible man... :bigrin: