Taking back America?

[The Cheshire Cat]

Thomas Jefferson believed we (Americans) would have to have a revolution at least every 50 to 80 years to hold the goverment in check. Well..it's way past time and im all for another revolution! Barring musket's though, it would have to be political. I found this site- http://www.unity08.com/. I know there are people on here (to the right and left) interested in politics and would like to know your thoughts, opnions about the site. Thank You :)

[innaminka]

Revolutions don't have to be guns and barricades a la Les Miserables.

I believe America had as close to a revolution as possible without guns in the late 60's - early 70's.
A whole generation rebelled against an injust war and against unfair domestic social policies.

I think maybe most democracies have these upheavals - it cleanses the national spirit without any real violence.

[FalconAngel]

Unfortunately, the way that things are going, armed revolt may be the only option that the government leaves us.
Not that I am for that. Quite the contrary, but history shows the way things tend to happen and we are heading in that direction unless enough real, Constitution-loving, patriotic Americans step up and get rid of the corruption (or at least as much of it as possible) and return this country to smaller, less intrusive government.

[biwords]

The site tends to reinforce the view that the people are wise and good, but unfortunately governed by bad and corrupt leaders. I tend to the opposite view, that a democracy tends to get the leaders it deserves, or more precisely, that politicians rule badly because they must please a divided, greedy and not-very-far-sighted electorate. Moreover, there's nothing in the US's post-Civil-War history to suggest that third-party movements, or anything like them, will ever get near the seats of power.

[spartca]

I agree biwords. I see our current foreign policy as just a collective projection of how we treat each other in the microcosm of everyday life.

It used to be that personal freedoms were limited when they interfered with other's freedoms: "The right to swing your arm ends at my nose." Now it seems might makes right, grab what you can, corruption is the way of life here in the USA, nevermind who gets hurt in our clawing and scratching our ways to the top.

Not that this is much different anywhere else, but at least in other places they don't subscribe to a collective delusion of a level playing field and pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps. Has no one else in this country read Max Weber's "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Spirit_of_Capitalism

Basically we are at the point Weber predicted - imprisoned in an "iron cage" of rationalism - the apotheosis of capitalism.

[Ms. Ally Kat]

The site tends to reinforce the view that the people are wise and good, but unfortunately governed by bad and corrupt leaders. I tend to the opposite view, that a democracy tends to get the leaders it deserves, or more precisely, that politicians rule badly because they must please a divided, greedy and not-very-far-sighted electorate. Moreover, there's nothing in the US's post-Civil-War history to suggest that third-party movements, or anything like them, will ever get near the seats of power.

well the Civil War was basically another revolution, and it was successful, this was a different country after the war, a loose union of states was replaced with a strong Central government, just as some of the founding fathers feared. The 10th amendment was (with out actually saying it explicitly) repealed by the 14th. and bigger is never better government wise.

[Solomon]

there actually is a revolution happening already....

[The Cheshire Cat]

What revolution is that Sol? Or do I dare ask? lol

[canuckotter]

I'd agree with biwords. I wish the US would get a leader like JFK again... "And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country."

And later: "We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too."

Or Jefferson: "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."

Americans (and Canadians, don't think for a minute I'm getting on some high horse here) have forgotten that greatness requires great effort. We've been on top for so long that we've forgotten what it took to get here. We've spent so long having everything we've wanted that we take it for granted that whatever we want will always fall into our laps. We're living in a dream world, and I fear that we won't wake up until it's far too late.

[Herbwoman39]

Here I must disagree. I would hardly call this a dream world. Yes, we're better off than most of the rest of the world but we most assuredly have problems: Homelessness, poverty, an extremely poor education system, crime, and these are just to name a few.

There are other countries that are more evolved socially than the US as far as LGBT rights. Japan has an education system that makes ours look pathetic. Even you guys upstairs in Canada seem to have a better healthcare system.

Revolution will cause upheaval but to what end?

[spartca]

Or Dennis Kucinich!

http://kucinich.us/

[Solomon]

What revolution is that Sol? Or do I dare ask? lol

it's a backwards industrial revolution.... sorta

but make no mistake, there is a tremendous shift in power happening

[Solomon]

i think these people can explain it much better than i can....
http://www.paulzanepilzer.com/
http://www.richdad.com/

these are good starts to understanding some of the things going on today.... :cool:

[spartca]

Hmm... more people are falling for the myth of meritocracy? Get-rich quick schemes are on the rise? I'm not exactly sure what you meant by those links Solomon?

[spartca]

Here are some links about the myth of meritocracy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy

From http://www.amazon.com/Meritocracy-Myth-McNamee-Stephen-J/dp/0742510565:

"This book challenges the widely held American belief in meritocracy that people get out of the system what they put into it based predominately on individual merit. The book identifies a variety of factors that suppress, neutralize, or negate the effects of merit, creating non-merit barriers to individual mobility."

From http://www.ncsociology.org/sociationtoday/v21/merit.htm:

" In The Meritocracy Myth, we do not suggest that “merit” is a myth. Rather, we argue that meritocracy the idea that societal resources are distributed exclusively or primarily on the basis of individual merit is a myth. It is a myth because of the combined effects of non-merit factors such as inheritance, social and cultural advantages, unequal educational opportunity, luck and the changing structure of job opportunities, the decline of self-employment, and discrimination in all of its forms. If meritocracy is a myth, how can the system be made to operate more closely according to meritocratic principles that Americans so uniformly endorse?

We suggest four ways in which American society could be made more genuinely meritocratic.

First, current forms of discrimination could be reduced or eliminated.

Second, the wealthy could be encouraged to redistribute greater amounts of their accumulated wealth through philanthropy in ways that would provide greater opportunity for the less privileged.

Third, the tax system could be redesigned to be genuinely progressive in ways that would close the distance between those at the top and the bottom of the system.

Fourth, more government resources could be allocated to provide more equal access to critical services such as education and health care...

All of these measures would reduce the overall extent of inequality in society and at the same time allow individual merit to have a greater effect on economic outcomes. Such fundamental change in the distribution of societal resources and opportunity, however, are predicated on the assumption that these goals would be widely seen as both desirable and politically feasible.

It is generally acknowledged that a pure meritocracy is probably impossible to achieve. What is less generally acknowledged is that such a system may not be entirely desirable. The limits and dangers of a system operating purely on the basis of merit were dramatically portrayed in The Rise of the Meritocracy (1961), a novel by British sociologist Michael Young. Young envisioned a society in which those at the top of the system ruled autocratically with a sense of righteous entitlement while those at the bottom of the system were incapable of protecting themselves against the abuses leveled against them from the merit elite above. Instead of a fair and enlightened society, the meritocracy became cruel and ruthless.

One possible advantage of a nonmeritocratic society is that at any point in time there are, for whatever combination of reasons, at least some of those at the top of the system who are less capable and competent than at least some of those at the bottom. Such discrepancies should render humility for those at the top and hope and dignity for those at the bottom. But this can only happen if it is widely acknowledged that inheritance, luck, and a variety of other circumstances beyond the control of individuals are important in affecting where one ends up in the system. While meritocracy may be neither possible nor even desirable, we argue that the myth of meritocracy is itself harmful because by discounting the most important causes of inequality, it leads to unwarranted exaltation of the rich and unwarranted condemnation of the poor. We may always have the rich and poor among us, but we need neither exalt the former nor condemn the latter."

[smokey]

SIGH!!! I really didn't want to be drawn into this debate.

The American century is over... it ended on 9/11. This so-called war on terror is essentially its last hurruh. Over the next, hell I was going to type century, but it is closer than that, over the next 40 years we will enter the long decline and there is no way around it. We have burnt our candle at both ends for far too long now and behaved as if we actually believed that our lifestyle in this, the most affluent and opulent nation of all, could be lived without consequences. If I live to 90 I fully expect to see (among other things) a loss of major cities due to the melting ice, famine and wild weather because we have ignored the warnings about our effects on the climate... Exxon and its cohorts have done a good job in politicizing in this country the global warming debate and so muddying the waters that a clear headed discussion is hardly possible. I fully expect to see a financial crisis that will make the great depression look like nothing. We have created a huge national deficit to pay for this ill-conceived war and will have to pay for it sooner or later but more importantly we have gone so long without addressing such things as the social security shortfall that if nothing is done to address the shortfalls it threatens to bring down the whole house of cards.

There are so many things converging over the next few decades that we as a nation (and some of this, especially the environmental issues affect all countries) will have no choice but to turn inward to deal with it... trouble is, and the big question is... we have become so pampered, can we discipline ourselves enough to deal with the issues? I wonder... and somehow I doubt that the politicians will be honest enough with us to give us any real chance, or any real choices. I don't know about anyone else but when I look at my generation, and the ones we have raised.... we are so spoiled, I seriously doubt we could have handled the great depression, much less what is coming.

[canuckotter]

Here I must disagree. I would hardly call this a dream world. Yes, we're better off than most of the rest of the world but we most assuredly have problems: Homelessness, poverty, an extremely poor education system, crime, and these are just to name a few.

There are other countries that are more evolved socially than the US as far as LGBT rights. Japan has an education system that makes ours look pathetic. Even you guys upstairs in Canada seem to have a better healthcare system.

Revolution will cause upheaval but to what end?
I was referring to society as a whole, not individuals. I find that most people in the GLBT community are much more aware than normal of the problems in society and much more willing to vote based on the longer-term impact of the platforms... It's probably just that as a community, we naturally come face-to-face with society's problems on a regular basis and so we're more willing to think about the problems and the possible solutions... I dunno.

Think about it this way... If a politician openly said "If it becomes necessary, yes, I will raise taxes to pay for Program X", no matter how obviously invaluable Program X might be and no matter how universal the support for it, what are the chances that politician would be elected?

[darkeyes]

Its a healthy thing for people to question their society and every aspect of it. Canuck is right when he says people like us and indeed people in other less accepted and minority groups tend to be much more aware of the problems and deficiences of a society. Sadly, we are usually on our own as each and every group has different wants and needs and ambitions for itself and we only come together with a wishy washy desire for improvement. So the majority who are ok or simply do not care, that dreaded word apathy, and the insidious efforts of the state machine and the media and elite power groups, and their trivialisation of the true problems we all face whoever we are, come together to ensure there is no real change. But change there must be, for if there is no real change in our societies we shall indeed have revolution, or at least chaos and violence on a huge scale, not anarchy in the true sense, but anarchy as the elite and and self interested power groups of the establishment continually warn us.

I wish to see change, revolutionarty wholesale change in societies the world over, and hope and believe it can be done peacefully. Change which benefits the vast majority of all people at the expense only of the privilege of wealth and power of the elite, and giving real power to people not power groups, institutions or corporations. But my big fear, as has historically proven to be the case, is that these groups will wish to retain their power wealth and privelege and use all the resources of the state to retain it. Though if thats how they want it....

As one who returns this year to finish off her university education and go ond to achieve her wish of becoming at teacher of English at high school, I do take issue in one respect with Herbwoman however, and its an important one when she refers to education in Japan. It is a fact that the Japanese system has many advantages over the US, and of course here in Scotland or the rest of the UK ( I differentiate for we have seperate system in place than England and Wales, and the situation in the North of Ireland is different again). What it does have that concerns me seriously are stress levels for children to succeed, the likes of which we in the west simply do not have, and a suicide rate among children which is far more alarming than our own.

I know in the US and UK and other western countries we have huge problems with violence in schools, but that violence in Japan sees to be more self inflicted because of that stress. I am unable to say about the US but in the UK, there is an increasing amount of self harm being seen among school kids because of he fear of failure. In Japan the situation does not just affect children approaching school leaving age but even those much younger. I do not wish to see that occur to the same extent in my own country's education system.

Japanese education also has a dishonesty in its teaching of history which is damaging to Japanese society, and may one day come back to haunt the world. This dishonesty and denial of its historical mistakes is more than just the official tailoring of history that all nations make..its is simply lying blatantly to their people, and a nation which denies its mistakes, and denies the truth to be told especially to the young, perpetuates myth and such a society will always be a danger to itself and its neighbours, and can never be truly at peace with itself.

Please do not think I am condening the Japanese system for I am not, Im just trying to say that not everything in the garden is rosy with it.. and in so many ways it is light years ahead of both the US and UK. But it does have imperfections as any sytem always will.

[darkeyes]

Here I must disagree. I would hardly call this a dream world. Yes, we're better off than most of the rest of the world but we most assuredly have problems: Homelessness, poverty, an extremely poor education system, crime, and these are just to name a few.

There are other countries that are more evolved socially than the US as far as LGBT rights. Japan has an education system that makes ours look pathetic. Even you guys upstairs in Canada seem to have a better healthcare system.

Revolution will cause upheaval but to what end? A better world Herbwoman.. is there another reason when the world is rotten to the core?

[Herbwoman39]

I was referring to society as a whole, not individuals. I find that most people in the GLBT community are much more aware than normal of the problems in society and much more willing to vote based on the longer-term impact of the platforms... It's probably just that as a community, we naturally come face-to-face with society's problems on a regular basis and so we're more willing to think about the problems and the possible solutions... I dunno.

Think about it this way... If a politician openly said "If it becomes necessary, yes, I will raise taxes to pay for Program X", no matter how obviously invaluable Program X might be and no matter how universal the support for it, what are the chances that politician would be elected?



Ahh, I see your point. I was raised as an individualist and tend to thing in terms of individual people or small groups rather than society as a whole.

Honestly if I agreed with Politician X on the need for the program, I would support it as long as said politician also planned to cut spending somewhere else to balance out the income and spending.

[Herbwoman39]

A better world Herbwoman.. is there another reason when the world is rotten to the core?


Oh my dear....there are SO many good people here. Not just on this site but on this planet. With so many wonderful people working so hard to make the world a better place, how can it be rotten to the core?

Don't let a couple bruises spoil you on the whole apple.

BTW thank you for explaining about the Japanese education system. I wasn't aware of the stress factors that their children experience. I wouldn't want that for our children either. I would just like for our teachers to teach and our students to learn so that when they graduate from high school they can pass the exit exam. I believe the most recent statistic I hears was that 30% of Florida high school seniors will not be graduating because they couldn't pass the exit exam.

[country60]

Ok, so let's really get this going. First of all I do think we need to take our country back and I have an idea on how we could start, I saw a bumper sticker years ago, "get your revenge - re-elect no one!!!. Now some would say that would cause confussion to have all new people in the government, I say what the hell do we have now? We need to do some thing to let the politcians know they are not doing the job they were sent there to do.

Now, let me just say, while I have not read all the posts for this theard and I am sure there are valid points to all that has been posted, this is an AMERICAN issue and advise from other countries has only gotten us more confussed in the past and I don't see any chance of that changing now. The best thing that any of us in this country can do is VOTE!! and make sure that you do what you can to get every one you know to VOTE, a vote that is not cast is a vote for the corruption to continue.

Now, I have been called a red neck, a rebel and several other things that I will not put here but this is my veiw:

I am an AMERICAN and I live in the greaest country in the world, I will defend her to the death and never regret it. My country has it's faults and troubles but it is still the home of the brave and land of the free!!!

[the mage]

America, you're greatest fault (and we Canadians are right there with you) is the fact that we have grown accustomed to our political hacks LYING to us. Outright bullshit all the time. And WE TAKE it.
That is our fault. They need to to be immediately responsible. (see France, Chile, Turkey) places where the people get up and throw stuff is where things change... we dont.
We have been brainwashed by media and workloads.
People in N.A. work longer hours with fewer holidays than any where else in the first world. We are subject to a control of a different nature. It is corporate.
That control does in fact affect our lives to a greater degree than the government. The psychopathic entity that is the corporation cares not about and in fact is using up the wealth of the middle class and transferring it to the wealthy.
The wealthy do not need the middle class, they only need a poor working class. the wealthy are consolidating power at the expense of the middle class in N.A.
That is war you are not being told about.

[jedinudist]

I don't recall exactly who said this, but I want to say it was Thomas Pane-

A true patriot must always be prepared to defend his country... from it's own government.

Yes, we are one of the best countries in the world, but we have collectively lost sight of the very things that made us great.

Now we adhere to pure avarice. "It's all about me" and screw everyone else. Companies make the laws, not us. Our representatives stopped representing us long ago and started representing whatever interest could get them in for another term. Our rights, freedoms, and everything else (environment, infrastructure, etc.) have been sold to the highest bidder with blatant, open disregard for the people these things affect.

Special interests with $ long ago began to over ride the basic rights and freedoms of the people who do all of the working and paying and living and dying in this country (yeah, lifted that from It's a Wonderful Life... because it's so appropriate).

As for revolution? I don't see it happening with votes - those don't really count anymore. Guns? Not a good option.

Grassroots. That's the only way I can see it happening. We have to come together and become more powerful than our own government in order for our voice to be heard unless we want to enter a bidding war with the voices that have already bought their way in.

Sad, so very sad.

[jedinudist]

America, you're greatest fault (and we Canadians are right there with you) is the fact that we have grown accustomed to our political hacks LYING to us. Outright bullshit all the time. And WE TAKE it.
That is our fault. They need to to be immediately responsible. (see France, Chile, Turkey) places where the people get up and throw stuff is where things change... we dont.
We have been brainwashed by media and workloads.
People in N.A. work longer hours with fewer holidays than any where else in the first world. We are subject to a control of a different nature. It is corporate.
That control does in fact affect our lives to a greater degree than the government. The psychopathic entity that is the corporation cares not about and in fact is using up the wealth of the middle class and transferring it to the wealthy.
The wealthy do not need the middle class, they only need a poor working class. the wealthy are consolidating power at the expense of the middle class in N.A.
That is war you are not being told about.


Exactly! and no matter what I do, I just can not get people to see that we are being lied to in order to keep us pacified and distracted from what is really happening.

[Herbwoman39]

The wealthy do not need the middle class, they only need a poor working class. the wealthy are consolidating power at the expense of the middle class in N.A. That is war you are not being told about.

Right here is where politicians get us to re-elect them. Class warfare. When someone decides that someone else has too much money then they send the government to try to take it from them. That, my friend, is what truly pisses me off.

Define "rich". Is "rich" someone with more money than you (this being the general 'you')? Or is "rich" a perception? I could be perceived as "rich" because I own a nice house in what will soon become a gated community right across the road from the inter coastal waterway less than 5 minutes from the nearest beach access. I could also be perceived as rich because we own our own business.

The truth is, thanks to the business we're up to our eye sockets in debt and are barely paying monthly bills because we're trying to grow the business and it's slow to take off. We drive used cars: a 97 Saturn and a 2001 VW Beetle. We work out of the house because we can't afford office and warehouse space.

So when the media starts talking about the rich, I wonder just who they're talking about because it sure as hell isn't me. BUT I'm not about to use government power to take money from others. That's just plain wrong.

My soapbox rant is over...we return you now to your regularly scheduled program already in progress.

[country60]

I don't recall exactly who said this, but I want to say it was Thomas Pane-

A true patriot must always be prepared to defend his country... from it's own government.

Yes, we are one of the best countries in the world, but we have collectively lost sight of the very things that made us great.

Now we adhere to pure avarice. "It's all about me" and screw everyone else. Companies make the laws, not us. Our representatives stopped representing us long ago and started representing whatever interest could get them in for another term. Our rights, freedoms, and everything else (environment, infrastructure, etc.) have been sold to the highest bidder with blatant, open disregard for the people these things affect.

Special interests with $ long ago began to over ride the basic rights and freedoms of the people who do all of the working and paying and living and dying in this country (yeah, lifted that from It's a Wonderful Life... because it's so appropriate).

As for revolution? I don't see it happening with votes - those don't really count anymore. Guns? Not a good option.

Grassroots. That's the only way I can see it happening. We have to come together and become more powerful than our own government in order for our voice to be heard unless we want to enter a bidding war with the voices that have already bought their way in.

Sad, so very sad.

It is the "votes don't count" that plays right into the hands of power that keeps things the way they are. Voting and getting everyone to vote is the way to get the attenion of any politican. Let's all vote and see what happens, it is pitiful when 30% or less of registered voters actually cast a balet.

[the mage]

As to who is "rich"... they are the non producers, the media dolls,
the sports gawds to whom we pay homage every time we go to the store and buy the shit that has their name on it.
They are the one who did NOT go to school to learn anything but a sport.
They are the ones who never finished high school and now get 30 million a movie.

They are NOT men like Bill Gates, who gives back in HUGE amounts. and in fact changed the world with the team of men he worked with.


There is danger in letting the "class war" mind set go on. It is not a "class" of people you need to fight, it is the corporate mindset, that "we are not personally responsible for these actions" you must fight.

We do not exist outside the natural world as we may want to believe, and no organism can grow to infinity.

[The Cheshire Cat]

Everyone has had valid, insightful replies. I knew you all could say it better than I. Jedinudist, the mage.. I guess all im really trying to say is in order to change America-we must first change America. Find a way to go forward...or stagnate in the endless loop of political corruption. But..how to do this? How do you take that first step? The people must do it -not the politicians. But-politicians are the only people running at the moment! ;)

[flexuality]

As to who is "rich"... they are the non producers, the media dolls,
the sports gawds to whom we pay homage every time we go to the store and buy the shit that has their name on it.
They are the one who did NOT go to school to learn anything but a sport.
They are the ones who never finished high school and now get 30 million a movie.
I beg to differ...these kinds of people are not "rich"...a lot of them have that disease called "Status." They may have dollars today, but they are NOT financially independant. As soon as they stop working, the paychecks stop coming in.

On the other hand, if someone can figure out a way to get paid $30 million a movie, more power to them! Or if they fight their way to the top in sports and get the big bucks, then good for them! I seriously doubt that those accomplishments were just handed to them.

Maybe those accomplishments are considered "non-productive" by some, but there is still something to learn from the struggle and the fight to get there.

At least they did something.

Sadly, that's where most people stop though, and take up residence in "Statusland."

If they have any financial education, they'll get that money working for them so that they can buy back that most precious of all commoditites - time.

And when you have time AND money, then you can do what IS productive. That's when you CAN give back.




They are NOT men like Bill Gates, who gives back in HUGE amounts. and in fact changed the world with the team of men he worked with.

I absolutely agree with you on this! Bill Gates gives back because he CAN give back, and he also employs many, many people (not only at Microsoft, but in terms of people to take care of things like cleaning, cooking or things along that line) and thereby gives back in that way too.

People like Bill Gates are financially independant simply due to the fact that if they stop working, the money still comes in. His time is his own.

Broke people can't help broke people.

[flexuality]

When someone decides that someone else has too much money then they send the government to try to take it from them. That, my friend, is what truly pisses me off.

Ain't that the truth! And those same people would be the first to cry "unfair" if THEY were the ones with the money that was being taken.

If someone goes out and puts in the blood, sweat and tears to get ahead financially, then why on earth should they "have to" give it to those who choose to sit back and do nothing except whine about how "unfair" it is that they don't have money too.

Well, excuse me, but one of the things that we in North America (and many other countries as well) DO HAVE is the freedom to go out and generate as much money as we want....but therein lies the problem, doesn't it? We have to WANT to.

We are told so bloody much that we "can't" or that we have some kind of "disadvantage" or that we're not "privileged" enough.....or even worse, that people with lots of money are assholes or that they got that money by less than honourable ways.....we get so bombarded with bullshit messages about wealth, that who would WANT any of that??

And then we turn around and demand that those with wealth share it with those of us without it. And worse, we have come to expect the government to do that for us.

To be honest, I would rather see money in the hands of those willing to put in the blood, sweat and tears that is takes to generate it, than money in the hands of those who have lost their dream of something better.

The problem isn't so much that the government has too much power...it's more that we, as people, have freely given up our own power.

We have become complacent.

[darkeyes]

Oh my dear....there are SO many good people here. Not just on this site but on this planet. With so many wonderful people working so hard to make the world a better place, how can it be rotten to the core?

Don't let a couple bruises spoil you on the whole apple.
A few bruises we can all live with Herbwoman..but look at the world. Corruption is whoselesale, greed is rife, pollution threatens us all, we strip the planet of our life giving resources without any real thought of tomorrow, racisms remains commonplace, bigotry toward that which we do not understand prospers, we kill in droves, we rape, we steal, nations squabble, governments rule with cruelty, we war for fun, we terrorise,we lie, we cheat, democracy is a sham everwhere.. the list of not just bruises, but rotten apples is endless.. all because of people.

Yes there are many wonderful people on this planet, but far too few who are in any position to do any thing about the diseases which are endemic. It is time the wonderful people began to assert their right not to be fucked mercilously by those "few" bruises....

[Solomon]

look.... i offered to be helpful by providing some information

quite frankly, i'm not interested in hearing the opinions of thousandaires describing to me what being a millionaire is like... i'm also not interested in listening to anyone going on about how evil it is to be rich.... unless you happen to be rich

[Solomon]

but it is very interesting to note how the poor discriminate against the wealthy...

but don't dare discriminate against someone who's black, gay, hispanic, indian, etc.. etc...

talk about biting the hand that feeds you.... and then wonder that the rich get tired of it and move their businesses to mexico, or japan, or china...

i have do have a question... you talk about the wealthy redistributing the wealth, which one of you would split your house with a homeless person?

i read recently where a billionare did just that..... so who's next?

[Long Duck Dong]

The day money was created, the world was given a life sentence

it is possible to live without money, but the powers that be, would rather have you in a situation where you require money, not for your own purposes, but for the purposes of others to keep you under control

it is possible to grow your own crops, supply your own food, water, power.... but that takes away the control over you.... hence you must pay for the rights to live on your own land... so you need to have money and to have money is to pay taxes, .....pay taxes and the powers that be, have a controlling hand in your life

many people talk about their power of the vote, the right to elect..... yet it is a *dream *.... your vote holds no more power than a hole filled bucket.....
how is one vote, more powerful than 6 million votes..???... its not..... unless its a veto vote......and can deny the wishes of so many millions....

america is not the worlds * evil * and nor are the muslims..... the worlds * evil * are the ones that feel their views and opinions are right for all.......and the ones that are like that, is society......

[Solomon]

with all due respect LDD... would you say the same thing about a drill?

imagine... the day that drills were invented, the world was given a life sentence.... lol!

but it's the same thing... thousands if not millions of people paid good money for drills last year (ultimately to a wealthy person that PRODUCES them), and not ONE of'em wanted a drill....

they want a hole!

the same is with money..... it's NOTHING more than a tool

can you imagine giving a drill to a caveman? the poor guy wouldn't be able to find an outlet anywhere! :eek:

and yet, that seems to be exactly the expectation of the wealthy to re-distribute their wealth to people that don't have the understanding of what to do with it, 'cuz if they understood what to do with it they'd just make their own anyways

[darkeyes]

with all due respect LDD... would you say the same thing about a drill?

imagine... the day that drills were invented, the world was given a life sentence.... lol!

but it's the same thing... thousands if not millions of people paid good money for drills last year (ultimately to a wealthy person that PRODUCES them), and not ONE of'em wanted a drill....

they want a hole!

the same is with money..... it's NOTHING more than a tool

can you imagine giving a drill to a caveman? the poor guy wouldn't be able to find an outlet anywhere! :eek:

and yet, that seems to be exactly the expectation of the wealthy to re-distribute their wealth to people that don't have the understanding of what to do with it, 'cuz if they understood what to do with it they'd just make their own anyways
Sol, sweets..ya dus hav this nasty habit of upsettin me on me weekends... they for nice yummie peaceful purposes, not for readin riot act 2 me m8s hubbies!!!....God baby wish ya wudn post on a weekend from 7 Friday nite till 7 Sunday!!! Now go 2 quack...get ya ears syringed..pin 'em back, an go 2 optician get eyes tested an get sum new specs as well!!! Lots 2 say wen me has time... dus luff ya dearly but ya dus hav an odd way of lookin at things!! :tongue:

Will jus say this at this juncture... on this subject...an all of ya posts, we agree on..well nuthin... :tong:

Watch this space hun.... steam cummin outa me ears ere!!! An Flex...get them cuffs for im this time...He needs pinnin down wen me next posts on this thread!! tee hee :bigrin:

[The Cheshire Cat]

Please, people-i didn't start this thread because i was trying to start a polarizing, food fight! I was actually looking for some constructive, positive input/thoughts. The website i gave is not a 3rd party site. They know they can't actually elect anyone. Rather it is trying to be a collective "shout" to our politicians that many are watching and truly desire (even a little) change.Reading the replies one can see why it is so hard for even the smallest of change. We tend to be our own worst enemy. :(
For those that gave links to various websites-thank you-i did go check them out. :)

[Solomon]

it's ok Cat.... fran just likes to spank me once in awhile lol!

[Solomon]

oh, an spartca.... if you're looking to get rich slow, that's just fine 'cuz i'm sure your job'll accomodate ya very nicely

and if you're looking for a scheme, then i'm afraid you're going to hafta look at sites other than the sites i posted.... for the most part they're selling books that are also available in most book stores

Paul Zane Pilzer is a leading economist and talks mostly about that aspect

Robert Kiyosaki delves into things like real estate, stock markets, business ownership, money and emotional management

so i'm sorry, but if you're looking for a get rich scheme you'll need to do a little better than those sites

[gofb_]

Even you guys upstairs in Canada seem to have a better healthcare system.

Please....

I live in the USA. My Sister in law lives in Canada. We both have the same symptoms related to heart issues. I went to a doctor got the test the next day was in the hospital the next day. Two days later released with the solution to my issue and with a follow up.

She is still waiting 9 weeks later for the test I had the day after the visit to the doctor.

We are praying and hoping she gets treatment before anything really bad happens. But we do not for a moment believe her health care system is better because she does not have to pay for it except through her very high taxes.

[flexuality]

Even you guys upstairs in Canada seem to have a better healthcare system.

Please....

I live in the USA. My Sister in law lives in Canada. We both have the same symptoms related to heart issues. I went to a doctor got the test the next day was in the hospital the next day. Two days later released with the solution to my issue and with a follow up.

She is still waiting 9 weeks later for the test I had the day after the visit to the doctor.

We are praying and hoping she gets treatment before anything really bad happens. But we do not for a moment believe her health care system is better because she does not have to pay for it except through her very high taxes.
The health care system up here might have been better at one time....many years ago....but you're right about it taking forever to see specialists or get tests done.

Back in 2003, I was in a car accident and had to have several tests and treatment and it went through private health care, as opposed to the govt health care. I was AMAZED at how much faster I was able to get tests done. An MRI that would normally take months to wait for, was done in less than a week.

Most people DO pay for the healthcare up here in monthly payments, whether they need it or not. Matter of fact, it's pretty much manditory.

[flexuality]

An Flex...get them cuffs for im this time...He needs pinnin down wen me next posts on this thread!! tee hee :bigrin:

Kin me cuff im even if me agree wiv im?? tee hee!! :bigrin:

[darkeyes]

Kin me cuff im even if me agree wiv im?? tee hee!! :bigrin:
spesh then cos he will b undearable an uncontrollable an feel smug an superior...kwik cuffin an gud thrashin soon put stop 2 that!! tee hee :bigrin:

[flexuality]

spesh then cos he will b undearable an uncontrollable an feel smug an superior...kwik cuffin an gud thrashin soon put stop 2 that!! tee hee :bigrin:
Tee hee! ok...got cuffs hidden by desk so wen tries to type, me whip out cuffs and cuff im to chair.....cept he mite like it lol! :tong:

[Solomon]

Even you guys upstairs in Canada seem to have a better healthcare system.

Please....

I live in the USA. My Sister in law lives in Canada. We both have the same symptoms related to heart issues. I went to a doctor got the test the next day was in the hospital the next day. Two days later released with the solution to my issue and with a follow up.

She is still waiting 9 weeks later for the test I had the day after the visit to the doctor.

We are praying and hoping she gets treatment before anything really bad happens. But we do not for a moment believe her health care system is better because she does not have to pay for it except through her very high taxes.

that's very true.... it's not better up here, it's communistic

in BC here they've even mandated that BC'ers are not allowed to seek private health care for conditions that require a specialist

flex saw a specialist privately before they made the law prohibiting it

it's absolutely fucking ridiculous... the medical profession's wages are set by the government, so there's no incentive for them to give good treatment regardless if people are willing to pay more or not, and the biggest outrage is that legally people aren't allowed to pay even if they want to

all that to justify enormous taxes!! :mad:

[canuckotter]

it's absolutely fucking ridiculous... the medical profession's wages are set by the government, so there's no incentive for them to give good treatment regardless if people are willing to pay more or not, and the biggest outrage is that legally people aren't allowed to pay even if they want to
Frankly, if a doctor requires a ridiculously high paycheque to motivate them to provide good treatment, I don't want to see them regardless of how much I'm paying them. ;) Of course, considering how much money it costs to become a doctor, I can hardly blame them for wanting to make some pretty hefty cash...

From my understanding, the reason that we have laws against providing pay service for medical treatments or tests that are available publicly is that there's a fear that our health care system will turn into an American system where basically, if you're not rich and you don't have good health benefits through work, you're pretty much screwed. The fear is that the doctors, nurses, and technicians will abandon the public system, leaving it more understaffed than it already is (most of the problems with wait times these days, at least around here, are caused by a serious shortage of technicians to operate the equipment), or that so many people will switch to private health care that the government will be forced to cut back funding for public health care... In either case, the poor and disadvantaged are pretty much SOL if they get sick. Or at least, that's the theory. And with the US right beside us, we don't have far to look for boatloads of examples of good, hard-working people whose lives are ruined by even a short illness.

Personally, I think there's plenty of room for public/private partnership in health care that can drop our taxes, shorten (or eliminate) wait times, improve quality of health care, and maintain public health care standards so that no-one has to sell their house to pay for a round of chemo.

[Solomon]

well, having experienced both sides of the fence canuckotter i can assure you that my life wasn't destroyed because of a minor illness, and i've never had the dough-ray-me to pay for the best doctors, nor have i had the greatest of jobs....

i've never been turned down at a hospital due to financial hardships, and there were times when i did need medical treatment when i was out of a job...

and it's definately taught me that i don't need to go seeing a doctor for every little hangnail that comes down the road...

truthfully i think the reason that canadians insist on seeing a doctor about everything coming down the road (even the things that just MIGHT affect'em!) is because on some level everyone realizes that we're paying for the bloody doctors whether we need'em or not

and part of the reason that scientists are discovering things like superbugs, and the water being polluted with antibiotics, and this that and the other thing is because people go to the doctor for things they really don't need to... and then demand to be medicated when there's absolutely no good to be done by it

[Solomon]

Sol, sweets..ya dus hav this nasty habit of upsettin me on me weekends... they for nice yummie peaceful purposes, not for readin riot act 2 me m8s hubbies!!!....God baby wish ya wudn post on a weekend from 7 Friday nite till 7 Sunday!!! Now go 2 quack...get ya ears syringed..pin 'em back, an go 2 optician get eyes tested an get sum new specs as well!!! Lots 2 say wen me has time... dus luff ya dearly but ya dus hav an odd way of lookin at things!! :tongue:

Will jus say this at this juncture... on this subject...an all of ya posts, we agree on..well nuthin... :tong:

Watch this space hun.... steam cummin outa me ears ere!!! An Flex...get them cuffs for im this time...He needs pinnin down wen me next posts on this thread!! tee hee :bigrin:

didn't mean to upset ya but yep, i'm definately an odd duck! lol :tong: an proud of it too! :bigrin:

an it doesn't matter if ya agree with me or not because i'm just sharing what those who've achieved success have shared with me.... so your disagreement's really with them :tong:

all i can do is share a perspective on the system that is.... i can't do anything to change the system...

[darkeyes]

didn't mean to upset ya but yep, i'm definately an odd duck! lol :tong: an proud of it too! :bigrin:

an it doesn't matter if ya agree with me or not because i'm just sharing what those who've achieved success have shared with me.... so your disagreement's really with them :tong:

all i can do is share a perspective on the system that is.... i can't do anything to change the system...
Sol.Me not upset wiv ya, not really..lil agitated cos sumtimes ya dus post things wen me cant reply kwik as me wud like...this 1 of em... weekends bad time..work..bad time... will reply wen me has a mo tho...

Me argument is wiv ya successful m8s sure..but its also wiv u sweetie for perpetuatin their garbage... so act like a man an face me wrath...wen it cums!!!! Steam still cummin out me ears. tee hee.... Plaster off..Cleave practice tonite..so normal service resumed asasp!!! :bigrin:

An Flex...for Gods sake baby.. don ya know by now ya neva agree wiv ya man publicly...matta of pride we always take up opposite view.... even wen mayb we dus mayb agree wiv the clots a lil.... no prob 2 me..me don agree wiv im in ne way shape or form!! :tong:

Luff yas both.. :)

[Solomon]

Sol.Me not upset wiv ya, not really..lil agitated cos sumtimes ya dus post things wen me cant reply kwik as me wud like...this 1 of em... weekends bad time..work..bad time... will reply wen me has a mo tho...

Me argument is wiv ya successful m8s sure..but its also wiv u sweetie for perpetuatin their garbage... so act like a man an face me wrath...wen it cums!!!! Steam still cummin out me ears. tee hee.... Plaster off..Cleave practice tonite..so normal service resumed asasp!!! :bigrin:

An Flex...for Gods sake baby.. don ya know by now ya neva agree wiv ya man publicly...matta of pride we always take up opposite view.... even wen mayb we dus mayb agree wiv the clots a lil.... no prob 2 me..me don agree wiv im in ne way shape or form!! :tong:

Luff yas both.. :)

fair enuff..... i'll act like a man.... just hafta make note it's only an act lol :bigrin: :tong:

oh an congrats on the plaster comin off! :cool:

an we both luff ya too... you sweetie! <ducking> :tongue:

[darkeyes]

look.... i offered to be helpful by providing some information

quite frankly, i'm not interested in hearing the opinions of thousandaires describing to me what being a millionaire is like... i'm also not interested in listening to anyone going on about how evil it is to be rich.... unless you happen to be richSaid it before and will say it again Sol. I o despair of you sometimes. I know, being as you put it a mere "thousandaire" that I do not know what being a millionaire is like, not truly. But I was married to a wealthy man for a few years and have some idea of the massive gulf between those that have and those that dont.

We wanted for very little Sol, and I had everthing a girl could want. Placcie cards and money to spend more or less as I pleased. Big house with 7 bedrooms, wealthy friends or is it "friends", nice car all to myself, all the clothes and shoes I could want, expensive perfumery, jewellery, foreign hols, jaunts more or less to where I wanted when I wanted. A husband who was as nice as he was generous. Who needed to work? But what I found Sol was it was all so superficial. It brought me little happiness any of it, because at the end of the day I just felt so guilty, and also so frustrated that I was part of a lifestyle which was not really me. I had surrendered my ambition for security for love. Yes it was love, not for the money. But that 2 was an illusion for to obtain my man I had to lie to him about my sexuality, or at least never allow it to be spoken about. For someone who had been openly bisexual since she was at school it was dreadful..and hypocritical.

In the end my loathing of the lifestyle,and the people who were scathing of the kind of people that I am..of my roots and of my class. I use class deliberately bacause I am working class, and as much as they deny that a class war exists in the UK, out of their mouths regularly rolled out words which proved quite the opposite! I am not ashamed of my roots, my class or who and what I am. And yet for a few years if I did not deny or admit any of it, I supressed it all because of my feelings and obligations to my hubbie. After we seperated, for reasons which made it inevitable, culture clash being but the least of it, I swore never again to supress who I am.

So sweetie I have experience of wealth..not unimaginable wealth but more than mere comfort. I do not discriminate against any group which feels itself oppressed thats why I do not discriminate against groups such as blacks or gays or any one else. Chance would be a fne thing to discriminate against the wealthy. They have the levers of power. Whereas the rest of us are merely the tools to make them wealthy and in reality we are of no consequence to them, its as simple as that! Those that inherited wealth have no idea of how the rest of us live, and those who have "worked" for it will do anything to ensure they never again find out and become contemptuous and dismissive of their roots. We are but the tools to provide them their avarice!

And let me say this Sol, for this made me angry when I first read it.. when you talk about biting the hand that feeds us...my God...I feed me..I earn my living, I am not an invalid or charity case. I work for my crust and my roof and my lifestyle...It is not handed to me on a grace and favour basis free gratis and for nothing. The rich do not feed me or anyone else..they give us nothing for nothing and history proves that those who are less well of have had to scrape struggle and fight for every advance we have ever made! The rich throw us a few carrots to keep us happy until there is a major movement when the working classes have finally had enough...only then has real change been achieved. If they feed us...is it not equally the case that we feed them? For without us the poor dears would have to wipe their own arses after having caught and cooked their own tea!

Now turning to sharing my home with a homeless person.. I have in fact..and will do again.. granted these are people I know or people who are known to my friends. I would not share my home with any who was otherwise for that would be folly, not least because of our need for personal safety and security. This is not a criticism of the homeless for they are in the main honest and given the chance hard working people..it is merely an acceptance of the realities of a sad situation. The billionaire who shared his home for a start had greater resources than ever I will have to do so, and will no doubt have had people to ensure that his safety was paramount while appearing charitable. It is very laudible but its the least he could do. For the rest of us, what does it achieve even were we all to take in a homeless person? Merely overcrowding in our homes, and a disguising of the true problems faced by western societies. Proper and adequate and affordable housing, proper employment opportunities for all is what is required..not the insanity and sillly suggestion of all of us sharing our homes with a homeless person.

I have covered my views on health care in other posts but it will do no harm to repeat the principle.... State provided health care for all at no cost to the user at point of entry, funded by general taxation. No privilege treatment for any save on health priority grounds. And will end here by sayin this...sure we pay for doctors whether we need em or not....an its rite that we do so..for if we dont, even in a private health care system where the devil ya gonna get em???

The thread is taking back America..but equally it is about taking back all nations inta the hands of their peoples...In most countries ordinary people are well down the list when it comes to opportunities for health, education, housing and employment.. its the way the wealthy like it Sol... if we were all wealthy hun..we would all be poor is how they look on it.. they will do everything they can to protect their wealth privilege and power..and its up to us to batter down those walls, not to get our share, but for a more fair and just world, where all can get a fair crack of the whip, and where none need fear the threat of poverty and starvation.

[FalconAngel]

A friend of mine once said it the best way possible; "We are the new Roman Empire."

All major societies tend to go through the same phases;
Birth, growth, expansion, Peaking achievements, then corruption, apathy, collapse.

We are in the apathy phase and running headlong into collapse. Unless a vast majority of people in this country get off of their collective asses and do something to protect what this country stands for and what our founding fathers wanted, then we will collapse......and it will be in our lifetime.

History has shown this to be true, unfortunately.

To make significant change a few things must be changed.

1) Runaway immigration MUST be stopped. We need to control number of immigrants that we let in, returning to pre-1980's levels. Otherwise we will not be able to support our own population.

2) Immigrants who come into this country MUST demonstrate that they are interested in becoming full and productive members of society by assimilating into our society rather than trying to get us to assimilate to the society that they left.

3) We must control our borders properly. No more allowing armed individuals to approach our border guard posts without responding as if it were an invasion (as happened in Nevada a few months ago).

4) We MUST ENDEAVOR TO REMOVE AS MANY CORRUPT POLITICIANS AS IS HUMANLY POSSIBLE.

5) Get tougher on those public officials who violate their oaths of office, holding them to the highest standard of integrity as we can. They are sworn to work for the benefit of the people who put them in office, not the other way around.

6) Eliminate redundant and /or useless laws designed to support fabricated sub-industries within the legal profession and court system.

7) Work with Law Enforcement to return our streets to us rather than the drug dealers and gangs.

None of these things is easy. Anyone who thinks that maintaining freedom is easy, should look at it from the shoes of the soldiers and veterans. I am a vet and know what it takes, but I am also descended from a War of Independence veteran, so I understand what it took to get that freedom in the first place.

We are the greatest country on the planet. We are not perfect, but we are the best bet there is and therefore worth saving.....worth making the effort to protect.

[Solomon]

darkeyes.... i can see where it was ultimately the wealth that destroyed your marriage.... the one thing that i suspect actually terrifies you, and yet just as powerfully also entices you.... and yet, it's you, NOT the money that endures the love/ hate you feel.....

such is the love and hate of money....

[Solomon]

FalconAngel..... just a note here politicians have been corrupt since their inception, and yet they seem to be the people best suited to be what their position demands....

i don't think i would like a government run by people that just aren't suited for that position.....

[darkeyes]

darkeyes.... i can see where it was ultimately the wealth that destroyed your marriage.... the one thing that i suspect actually terrifies you, and yet just as powerfully also entices you.... and yet, it's you, NOT the money that endures the love/ hate you feel.....

such is the love and hate of money....
Sol, you have understood nothing of what I hate said hun..bad time again and have to go..will be back.. steam hissing out of me ears.lol :bigrin:

[Solomon]

Sol, you have understood nothing of what I hate said hun..bad time again and have to go..will be back.. steam hissing out of me ears.lol :bigrin:

well, i hear that steam's good for cleaning out ears hehehee!! :bigrin: :tong:

sorry..... couldn't resist! :bigrin:

[Solomon]

Sol, you have understood nothing of what I hate said hun..bad time again and have to go..will be back.. steam hissing out of me ears.lol :bigrin:

oh, and i can also see where my post would seem to lack understanding.... i sorta did a guy thing an voiced a conclusion, told ya i was just acting like a man :bigrin:

i didn't mean to interrupt your train of thought though....

[Solomon]

Said it before and will say it again Sol. I o despair of you sometimes. I know, being as you put it a mere "thousandaire" that I do not know what being a millionaire is like, not truly. But I was married to a wealthy man for a few years and have some idea of the massive gulf between those that have and those that dont.

and it's within that gulf that does exist that from what i understand the greatest personal growth happens.....

We wanted for very little Sol, and I had everthing a girl could want. Placcie cards and money to spend more or less as I pleased. Big house with 7 bedrooms, wealthy friends or is it "friends", nice car all to myself, all the clothes and shoes I could want, expensive perfumery, jewellery, foreign hols, jaunts more or less to where I wanted when I wanted. A husband who was as nice as he was generous. Who needed to work? But what I found Sol was it was all so superficial. It brought me little happiness any of it, because at the end of the day I just felt so guilty, and also so frustrated that I was part of a lifestyle which was not really me. I had surrendered my ambition for security for love. Yes it was love, not for the money. But that 2 was an illusion for to obtain my man I had to lie to him about my sexuality, or at least never allow it to be spoken about. For someone who had been openly bisexual since she was at school it was dreadful..and hypocritical.

of course it was hypocritical, you were living a lie... and the lie was that you have the integrity to know that the wealth would never be truly yours until you've grown into it

In the end my loathing of the lifestyle,and the people who were scathing of the kind of people that I am..of my roots and of my class. I use class deliberately bacause I am working class, and as much as they deny that a class war exists in the UK, out of their mouths regularly rolled out words which proved quite the opposite! I am not ashamed of my roots, my class or who and what I am. And yet for a few years if I did not deny or admit any of it, I supressed it all because of my feelings and obligations to my hubbie. After we seperated, for reasons which made it inevitable, culture clash being but the least of it, I swore never again to supress who I am.

there is definately a cost associated with becoming rich.... but it's not the 'lifestyle' per se in as much as it's thinking involved, it's a different culture with it's own language and perspective..... something that you didn't give yourself a chance to understand the reasoning behind the 'lifestyle'

So sweetie I have experience of wealth..not unimaginable wealth but more than mere comfort. I do not discriminate against any group which feels itself oppressed thats why I do not discriminate against groups such as blacks or gays or any one else. Chance would be a fne thing to discriminate against the wealthy. They have the levers of power. Whereas the rest of us are merely the tools to make them wealthy and in reality we are of no consequence to them, its as simple as that! Those that inherited wealth have no idea of how the rest of us live, and those who have "worked" for it will do anything to ensure they never again find out and become contemptuous and dismissive of their roots. We are but the tools to provide them their avarice!

there is a reasoning behind the snubbery of especially the 'rich brats'... and do ya think for a second that their malisciousness might just be defensive because i'm very certain that whoever attained the wealth in that family did go through the crap to get there? and there's a ton of crap to go through to get there....

And let me say this Sol, for this made me angry when I first read it.. when you talk about biting the hand that feeds us...my God...I feed me..I earn my living, I am not an invalid or charity case. I work for my crust and my roof and my lifestyle...It is not handed to me on a grace and favour basis free gratis and for nothing. The rich do not feed me or anyone else..they give us nothing for nothing and history proves that those who are less well of have had to scrape struggle and fight for every advance we have ever made! The rich throw us a few carrots to keep us happy until there is a major movement when the working classes have finally had enough...only then has real change been achieved. If they feed us...is it not equally the case that we feed them? For without us the poor dears would have to wipe their own arses after having caught and cooked their own tea!

yes, you do work hard.... for money
have you had enough exposure to wealth to have your money work for you?
or do you prefer kidding yourself into thinking that there's some high and mighty reason behind working hard for your money?
you do after all realize that you are working to make sure that they don't hafta wipe their asses themselves don't you?

and if i'm not mistaken the inception of the unions was supposed to bring about this change..... and that changed NOTHING except for making the wealthy even wealthier, and providing more comforts for the working people, but lo and behold the wealthy were still just as wealthy if not wealthier

Now turning to sharing my home with a homeless person.. I have in fact..and will do again.. granted these are people I know or people who are known to my friends. I would not share my home with any who was otherwise for that would be folly, not least because of our need for personal safety and security. This is not a criticism of the homeless for they are in the main honest and given the chance hard working people..it is merely an acceptance of the realities of a sad situation. The billionaire who shared his home for a start had greater resources than ever I will have to do so, and will no doubt have had people to ensure that his safety was paramount while appearing charitable. It is very laudible but its the least he could do. For the rest of us, what does it achieve even were we all to take in a homeless person? Merely overcrowding in our homes, and a disguising of the true problems faced by western societies. Proper and adequate and affordable housing, proper employment opportunities for all is what is required..not the insanity and sillly suggestion of all of us sharing our homes with a homeless person.

what's so insane about it? it was actually a commonplace practice in history before the advent of the monopoly's and the industrial revolution....

I have covered my views on health care in other posts but it will do no harm to repeat the principle.... State provided health care for all at no cost to the user at point of entry, funded by general taxation. No privilege treatment for any save on health priority grounds. And will end here by sayin this...sure we pay for doctors whether we need em or not....an its rite that we do so..for if we dont, even in a private health care system where the devil ya gonna get em???

i do prefer to pay the doctor's their fair wages for when they work, not for when they don't work for me or my family thanks.... i don't appreciate having to pay for everyone else's minor sniffle, sneaze, or hangnail thanks

The thread is taking back America..but equally it is about taking back all nations inta the hands of their peoples...In most countries ordinary people are well down the list when it comes to opportunities for health, education, housing and employment.. its the way the wealthy like it Sol... if we were all wealthy hun..we would all be poor is how they look on it.. they will do everything they can to protect their wealth privilege and power..and its up to us to batter down those walls, not to get our share, but for a more fair and just world, where all can get a fair crack of the whip, and where none need fear the threat of poverty and starvation.

actually i find that the people that are the most concerned with protecting what they have is the people that don't have much to protect..... after all it's not like the wealthy can't afford another diamond ring if they happen to lose one
and yes... it is very true that if we were all wealthy, then we would all be broke.... can you imagine noone needing to work at a shopping mall? so much for your clothes!


just to let ya know i did read and understand what you were saying.... but i am looking at it from a different perspective ya know?

[oralplus]

Regardeless who you vote for ...you get a Politician... even if some have very good intentions, when they get elected.they do what the party policy tell he or she what to do. In my humble opinion the only way is ...Nobody votes and would reflect a vote of no confidance for the polis. Nice to dream

[FalconAngel]

FalconAngel..... just a note here politicians have been corrupt since their inception, and yet they seem to be the people best suited to be what their position demands....

i don't think i would like a government run by people that just aren't suited for that position.....

All very true, but like cockroaches, we cannot let them overrun the political system. Letting that happen is what is causing most of our current problems, including the rigged and purchased re-election of "Emperor" Bush.

[spartca]

In my humble opinion the only way is ...Nobody votes and would reflect a vote of no confidance for the polis. Nice to dream

Here in the US we already have a vote of no confidence, by our own standards for evaluating other democracies around the world. Less than half of all eligible voters vote.

Ironically, these are the standards we use to justify invading those countries and establishing a puppet government friendly to US interests that we call a "democracy." So by this logic it's time someone invaded us to re-establish democracy. How about a popular uprising of democracy? I wonder how that could look, given the fascistic government we now have in place?

[Solomon]

All very true, but like cockroaches, we cannot let them overrun the political system. Letting that happen is what is causing most of our current problems, including the rigged and purchased re-election of "Emperor" Bush.

there definately needs to be some checks and balances..... i do think there was something to be learned from the confederacy in regards to the idea of an immigration policy that's worth a shit lol

[Solomon]

Here in the US we already have a vote of no confidence, by our own standards for evaluating other democracies around the world. Less than half of all eligible voters vote.

Ironically, these are the standards we use to justify invading those countries and establishing a puppet government friendly to US interests that we call a "democracy." So by this logic it's time someone invaded us to re-establish democracy. How about a popular uprising of democracy? I wonder how that could look, given the fascistic government we now have in place?

i'm confused... as usual lol

are you volunteering to be invaded, or are you threatening to invade?

[jamiehue]

Exactly! and no matter what I do, I just can not get people to see that we are being lied to in order to keep us pacified and distracted from what is really happening.
That leads the immigration issue among other things.

[jamiehue]

we vote, worship, idols meanwhile....

[darkeyes]

darkeyes.... i can see where it was ultimately the wealth that destroyed your marriage.... the one thing that i suspect actually terrifies you, and yet just as powerfully also entices you.... and yet, it's you, NOT the money that endures the love/ hate you feel.....

such is the love and hate of money....
Wealth had nuthin 2 do with destroying my marriage..what did if you read carefully was my denial of me and what I am during the period before and during the marriage. I stifled my own sexuality, never a good thing, and my own ambition 2 be useful and being a lady of leisure with no need to work felt useless. I was in the enemy's camp and not as a 5th columnist either, and smiled gracefully as they ripped apart those "parasites" of the working class and what they called the underclass of sick and unemployed. Something had to give and as time went on my own nature began to assert itself and became once again the Fran you know and love, Sol.

What I found Sol is what many of those arseholes said for public consumption and what they said among themselves were very often 2 different things. And those who wereat least decent enough to have sympathy with those with less than themselves were inavariably very patronising about them. It was hard to stomache. And in the end I did not..I regurgitated everything they tried 2 do.... which included I may add the occasional looking down the nose at this little trollop who had the cheek 2 aspire to be like them (which I never did as it happens.It suited them to think so).

In the end though Sol, while the marriage would have ended at some stage and was in trouble already..severe trouble.. it was my sexuality which was the catalyst which brought about its end.

In itself being wealthy (not that I was... it was Bri's money ...I was merely the instrument of spending it) really had little do with it. I like nice things, to go to nice places and have the freedom to enjoy life. I do so in many ways now, though it is more of a struggle, but its a struggle I am glad to have and soon it will be even more of a struggle, for 2 years at least anyway. I do not hate money.. I hate what it does to people.. I hate its unfair distribution... but you're right it is a tool. Its tool which those with power use to crush the opposition to it, its tool with which they defend their position and their power. Its not simply a tool of commerce...

[Solomon]

very well fran......

[darkeyes]

just to let ya know i did read and understand what you were saying.... but i am looking at it from a different perspective ya know?
Everything you said in response to my post shows the gulf between us in our ways of seeing the world. Nothing you say gives me any confidence that you are saveable Sol. The difference between us is so vast, that a meeting of minds will only be a clash. It displays our cultural difference, in many ways the cultural difference between Europe and America, where capitalism and socialism are viewed very differently.

In Europe we have more of a community support ideal, whereby there is protection and support for all from cradle to grave. Its far from perfect and there are many problems with it. In some ways over the last 30 years many of its tenets have been eroded and even eliminated, but the principle remains, and I doubt Europeans would wish for that principle to die. We live in social democracies, where even right wing parties know that europeans would not stand for their welfare states to be allowed to die. We are suspicious of wealth, certainly immense wealth, but our whole ethos is spirit, prosperity and survival of the community... and providing a base below which no one will drop. The sink or swim philosophy simply does not work...some call it trickle down whereby greater wealth for the rich will trickle down in benefits for the less well off...since historically it does not trickle down too well, I will stick to sink or swim.

In the US quite simply the more unfettered free market capitalism is more of a sink or swim idealogy, whereby prosperity and wealth of the nation will raise the lives of all to an acceptable standard. To some degree we suffer from that here also but European social philosophy will not allow it to go as far as the US. But while we have poverty in europe and many problems, we do not have the depth of poverty which the US has, whereby 50 million people are outwith any real health care and live in abject poverty. Poverty here is relative, and the state provides financial support to all who need it. It is expensive and has to be paid for, and europeans, while we gripe like anyone else about tax levels, are much less reluctant to pay high taxes to provide the health, education and social services we believe as a civilised society we deserve.

The bottom dollar Sol?? In Europe we are less selfish and more community spirited than Americans. We argue for and believe in a society where all can have equality of opportunity in health, employment, education and housing and all the trimmings which make us civilised. This doesnt mean we all get or are the same.. it means that the state, the community of the nation, is the facilitator for all to progress through life with as much support and encouragement as it can provide to achieve their ambitions and allow them to live a decent life free of want and ignorance.

Of course as a socialist I want the world to go so much further to acheive my dream of a truly civilised society, for the moment so much time and effort is taken up in defending what we have here, but these things are cyclical.. and I bide my time while arguing for progress to be made to get closer to my dream. But when I read your posts hun, I cringe, and am only glad I believe what I do, and not as you.

It is not the fact that you wish to be rich Sol, which makes me cringe, we all wish to be better off, but the fact that it appears to be a personal ambition which has taken root of your soul without much thought for anything else. Its a dream Sol, and there is nothing wrong with dreams.. I am full of them for Gods sake... but its a dream which may help you personally, but in the end will do little or nothing for the community at large. And there Sol lies the huge difference between us.

[darkeyes]

I have never thought you less of a person than me u huffy get!! Disagree sure, and we always shall about this.. but less a person no.. I am hardly so perfect as to have the right to.

The point of the whole argument to some extent is what you said about being booted out into the streets if you have no money.... here, and in most of the EU, if you have no money, the state, through our tax contributions helps you retain your home, feed you and your family until your luck turns. Also in many ways, by retraining etc, those contributions assist you make your own luck turn. Thats not pretending...thats a fact!! It isnt perfect and some people do fall out of the system, but as much as anything out of ignorance of it. Some people, even large numbers never seem to get out of the system, and that is a fault which needs to be addressed... but it is better than letting them sink completely into oblivion and absolute despair. And thats the difference between the US and here. We pay our tax contributions and health contributions to the state as insurance should we meet hard times, or fall ill... they are an investment for our future not a burden which we have to bear with no return..

If you are offended in any way as you so obviously seem to be, Im sorry for that, but take none of it back, save possibly any words which may have been indelicately put. We both have strong opinions based on our life experiences and culture... you should know me well enough by now Sol, to know I dont cower from an argument.. its life's blood almost.. but if you wish to take your ball away fine..the argument has to end sometime, at least in this thread...so I suppose now is as good a time as any...



Na na na na na na... u lost!!! tee hee

[darkeyes]

Ya bugger Sol...ya hoiked it!!!! :tong: Now its weekend Sol...time for fun 'n games...for gods sake no controversial posts.... leave em till Sunday nite huh???

[Solomon]

Ya bugger Sol...ya hoiked it!!!! :tong: Now its weekend Sol...time for fun 'n games...for gods sake no controversial posts.... leave em till Sunday nite huh???

sigh.... i don't think i'm going to be posting about this again

i tried to avoid arguing about it at all darkeyes.... i'm not interested in banging my head against a wall, and since i'm no longer seeing things from a popular perspective that's exactly all that's happening

i'll post on other topics, but as far as religion, money, or politics goes leave me out of it
better yet, i'll just stay out of it period anyways

matter of fact.... think i'll just stick with things i can agree with
so far as arguing goes..... yep you win

[darkeyes]

Sol....How can ya agree in an argument?? tee hee..

Don u dare NOT argue wiv me!! Me expects it an WILL have it!!! An if me don..me WILL be very miffed!!! An wen miffed me not very nice!!!! We hav always argued...an we always betta argue....:tong:

Now pick up ya ball, and kick it back inta field of play ya sod!!!! Even if its inta anotha game....:bigrin:

[flexuality]

Not savable?

You seem to have some fairly intense negative opinions of wealthy people, darkeyes....is that they way you are going to see us when we are wealthy?

wow.....I don't know what to say......

[darkeyes]

Not savable?

You seem to have some fairly intense negative opinions of wealthy people, darkeyes....is that they way you are going to see us when we are wealthy?

wow.....I don't know what to say......
Yes flex I do have pretty intense negative feelings about them...not all are shites only most...

How will I see you when you are wealthy?? Still as a friend I hope.. funnily enough I do actually have 1 or 2 wealthy friends even now, though none obscenely so... we argue about it...a lot.. but we get along pretty well. Hope we can too.

And what can ya say??? How about dont be stupid Fran ya's talkin bollox... thats ok... its called luffinly disagreein...vehemently... with venom!!! An its wot friends do.... least in my part of the world..

An since me gettin called Darkeyes nowadays...assume me now crossed of ya Christmas card list!!! Pity...cos u pair r still on mine!!!

[flexuality]

Fair enuff...

Don't be stupid Fran...ya's talkin bollox!! We're not becoming wealthy so we can wallpaper our walls with dollar bills.....we want our DREAMS!

So wen ya bash wealth wot ya really doin is bashin our dreams...an that's bollox!!

An for the record, ya stupid twit.....one can only be hurt by someone that one cares about....so quit thinkin ya off the Christmas list...cuz for starters I don't do cards....an if me did, me wud put luffly daft cows on em at least in your case.

Now quit ya bollox!!

[darkeyes]

Wud neva stand in way of ya dreams Flex.... want every 1 hav wealth not jus a few..don mean obscene wealth...ther r different kinds of it... thats wy me a socialist.... me wealthy cos me has me health, friends an some peeps even luff me...me rich cos 1 in particular duz.. have enough 2 eat, nice pad, leased..not owned) look nice an enjoy me life.. wy me wanna hav lots more???? Have had lots more..an it jus wasnt me... Only way we wud eva fall out seriously wos ifya became like most wealthy me knows, and even obscenely obnoxiusly wealthy..an used that wealth 2 fuk wiv those who hav so much less.... or nothin... in itself wealth is no bad thing... it is when peeps raise barriers 2 protect their wealth an power an become all that is bad in humanity..an worst of all..the oppresser. Thats wot wealth does..me seen it..lived wiv it...lived it... an didn like, an thought it undignified an destructive an breeds not nice people. So in end me got out... an became human again...(well sort off..tee hee)

Thats wy me negative bout wealth..not outa envy, or greed..but cos want a world wer every1 is wealthy, wer they need fear no poverty, wer health care is available 2 all wivout worryin bout huge bills, wer ther is fair an equitable distribution of wealth, wer employment an innovation can prosper, not outa a want 2 b wealthy but cos of an altruistic want 2 better the world.. not one's self at the expense of others. Where common humanity and justice exist for all, not just a wealthy elite.. they way we worship at the alter of wealth now..an aspiration to be wealthy is unhealthy for the vast majority of people, because of the elite's refusal to change and its protection of its own power... so I am a socialist and wish to see wholesale change to the ethics and philospies of the world, to the political systems, to enable true wealth, not merely economic, but that 2, 2 b the right of us all, not merely a privileged elite...

Dont be hurt Flex.. I didnt want to, nor mean to.. I just think there is a better way, which no doubt you and Sol simply do not aspire to or see as an improvement on your dream..my dream is merely different... but its no use burying our differences. They havta be out in the open..and thats why I write and act as I do..

[flexuality]

True wealth is not measured in dollars and "stuff".....it's having the TIME and the MONEY to do what you want, when you want....and for some that takes a lower dollar figure....but that's not the point.

We are not talking about becoming some "elite" who hold it over the "have-nots" heads.

Some people want to be able to fund a cause.....ya can't do that without money. I know of people who go to third world countries and provide the money to build the schools and the libraries and the kitchens and bathrooms...and they can do that because they have time and money. They don't just send $20 a month and sit back....they go there cuz they CAN.

We're not talking about becoming wealthy at the expense of others either! Matter of fact, the only way to become truly wealthy is to help others to become wealthy too, and when ya do that, then people have the opportunity to not have to fear poverty, they can get health care and not have to worry about bills.....where they can provide employment and innovation if they choose to.

But you'd be amazed at how many people don't want that. It's mind boggling.

And like I said, wealth is not just money and stuff. There is wealth in different areas....health, family, friends, peace of mind, etc.

I seriously doubt that you know ALL the wealthy people out there. Yes, I agree, there ARE those like you describe, but there is also a growing number of wealthy people that are not like that.

I have no intention or desire to give up who I am to be wealthy....I am more likely to give up who I am if I stay broke and give up on my dreams.

[flexuality]

an ya box is full!! lol!!

[darkeyes]

True wealth is not measured in dollars and "stuff".....it's having the TIME and the MONEY to do what you want, when you want....and for some that takes a lower dollar figure....but that's not the point.

We are not talking about becoming some "elite" who hold it over the "have-nots" heads.

Some people want to be able to fund a cause.....ya can't do that without money. I know of people who go to third world countries and provide the money to build the schools and the libraries and the kitchens and bathrooms...and they can do that because they have time and money. They don't just send $20 a month and sit back....they go there cuz they CAN.

We're not talking about becoming wealthy at the expense of others either! Matter of fact, the only way to become truly wealthy is to help others to become wealthy too, and when ya do that, then people have the opportunity to not have to fear poverty, they can get health care and not have to worry about bills.....where they can provide employment and innovation if they choose to.

But you'd be amazed at how many people don't want that. It's mind boggling.

And like I said, wealth is not just money and stuff. There is wealth in different areas....health, family, friends, peace of mind, etc.

I seriously doubt that you know ALL the wealthy people out there. Yes, I agree, there ARE those like you describe, but there is also a growing number of wealthy people that are not like that.

I have no intention or desire to give up who I am to be wealthy....I am more likely to give up who I am if I stay broke and give up on my dreams.So we don differ so much really...jus on how we achieve it... not much inta givin 2 causes cept political 1s 2 achieve my dreams of how the world shud b... charities me don touch wiv bargepole..cos if the world was rite we wud hav no need of charity..all ya do by givin 2 such causes is help states accross the planet disguise the true size of any given problem...so the rich give a lot an that keeps them happy..protection of their power.. stops us gettin 2 upset an bolshy...the poorer get the heartstrings pulled an feel the they havta dig inta their pockets 2 do likewise an end up payin so much more as a percentage of ther hard earned dosh 2 prop up a crumblin system 2 the detriment of their own aspirations..triff flex... so every 1 feels good about themselves... an allows the state to duck outa its responsibilities to its people an people around the world.

You still talkin bout an elite an becomin part of that elite Flex... wer there is huge gaps between rich an poor ... I wanna eliminate elites an give every1 the chance to have the true wealth about which we have been talkin.. your way it jus wont happen... with mine it has a glimmer of a chance...

Don wanna open up the argument again (tho suspect me already has) so will leave it ther for now... now no gettin miffed wiv me...me luffs ya an am ya m8...jus tryin 2 eddicate ya 2 the realities of my world, wich as me sees it is substantially yours 2. Its a matta of friends disagreein on this baby... its wot friends do... but not gonna fall out wiv ya over it.. life 2 short!!

[Solomon]

that's just it... everyone DOES have a fair chance at becoming wealthy!!

flex was right, we have been in several homes now sharing an oppurtunity, literally offering a way to achieve pretty much anything one could dream of and more, we've also been willing to share pretty much everything we've learned so far

what we found was that most people don't want it period

what we found was that most people are very content laugh at us, ridicule us, kick us outta their homes, and put us down because we bothered to give enough of a shit about'em to offer them a way to do whatever they want to do in life...... and yes we offered to help'em do it as well

also found that most people just really want to sit around and complain and bitch about how things are..... they don't want to be bothered with doing something about it.... frankly i think most of'em are too busy failing to be successful

so when you talk about how it should be that the wealthy that incidentally have bothered to do something about it, facing the same ridicule and crap and going the extra mile to push themselves into the wealthy bracket, now all of a sudden their just 'spose to give that all away to the same people that have done nothing except for forever criticizing'em???

i'm sorry... that's just a bit more than i'm willing to swallow

[darkeyes]

that's just it... everyone DOES have a fair chance at becoming wealthy!!

flex was right, we have been in several homes now sharing an oppurtunity, literally offering a way to achieve pretty much anything one could dream of and more, we've also been willing to share pretty much everything we've learned so far

what we found was that most people don't want it period

what we found was that most people are very content laugh at us, ridicule us, kick us outta their homes, and put us down because we bothered to give enough of a shit about'em to offer them a way to do whatever they want to do in life...... and yes we offered to help'em do it as well

also found that most people just really want to sit around and complain and bitch about how things are..... they don't want to be bothered with doing something about it.... frankly i think most of'em are too busy failing to be successful

so when you talk about how it should be that the wealthy that incidentally have bothered to do something about it, facing the same ridicule and crap and going the extra mile to push themselves into the wealthy bracket, now all of a sudden their just 'spose to give that all away to the same people that have done nothing except for forever criticizing'em???

i'm sorry... that's just a bit more than i'm willing to swallowDon swallow it..not makin ya Sol..luff ya dearly but we will b on opposite sides wen the world goes 2 hell!!! An a fair chance 2 wealthy??? Don think so. not every1 has either the ruthlessness the ability or want to become wealthy... not every 1 has the ability for wotever reason to stay even on an even keel... so we let some become wealthy an let the rest sink??? I think not.... the capitalist system has neither the ability or capacity for truly being altruistic... therein lies the rub...therin lies its ultimate downfall...an therein lies us being on opposite sides when the shite flies....

We dont agree fine...but be cheery...me do wot me can for ya wen they putya up gainst that wall!!!..hope u wud do same for me..tee hee

[Bi_fun_Orl]

Wow, an intelligent discussion on a sex site, by people with intelligent views! How refreshing. You don't find that on many political sites.

My two cents: I agree with the earlier statement that basically "we get the government we deserve". Ive often marveled that the American people are too stupid to vote for their own self interests. Politicians are marketed to us like Coke and Pepsi, and people are naive enough to fall for it.

So, we now have "identity politics". Do you identify with coke or pepsi?

The last election was a perfect example. Kerry was rumored to have some 'French' in his background. While bush (who was raised in kennebunkport) was marketed as the red-blooded, all-American cowboy.

Which do you identify with?

So we vote against a man who volunteered to go to Vietnam, lead men, got wounded, came back and helped end the war. We voted for a guy who sat out the war stateside, and couldn't even bother to show up to that. He was sold to us as a "war president". Apparently people aren't sophisticated enough to know when they are being sold a load of BS.

They vote for bush, cheney, condeleeza, card, all people from the oil industry
and what do we get? $3.00 gas. What did they expect?

They vote against the man who helped end the Vietnam war and what do they get? A war that won't end in Iraq.

Is this what people want? Three dollar gasoline and endless war? Not according to polls. But, you get what you vote for.

[oralplus]

The question is ... not been rich..is how you get there. Honestly? steping on people? etc. etc. If is achived with hard work and ethicaly ...good on you. The problem is that when they are on the "roller coaster" cant stop, allways is MORE.. Very sad indid. Also unfortunatly this days, the "sistem " do not let you be on a level on wich you are cofortable,as you are "taken over" or destroyed by the BIG end of town. A very sad world we created.

[flexuality]

Is this what people want?

I believe that right there is the BIGGEST problem we, as human beings, face. We don't know what we want.

We have become so complacent, so content to have someone else steer our lives, that we don't even know HOW to know what we want anymore. Most of us don't even know how to think...we just believe what we've been programmed to believe.

Most people have just given up on their dreams. Not only given up on them, but actually believe that it is selfish and wrong to even have a dream of something better or something more than where we are.

People are always moving.....and if we're not moving forward then we are moving backward...whether we admit that or not.

And people think coming out as bisexual is hard....lol!! You should try coming out as wanting to become wealthy.

[flexuality]

You still talkin bout an elite an becomin part of that elite Flex... wer there is huge gaps between rich an poor ... I wanna eliminate elites an give every1 the chance to have the true wealth about which we have been talkin.. your way it jus wont happen... with mine it has a glimmer of a chance...


Have you ever really thought through just what a world with "evenly distributed wealth" would look like?

Take off your rosy coloured glasses for a minute and seriously LOOK at it. Who's gonna own the businesses? The malls? The car sales? The grocery stores? Who's gonna own them? Should the government own them? In your ideal world, we couldn't have just the average person owning a business, cuz then the wealth would get outta balance again.

And even if you came up with a way to keep the wealth in balance so that people could own businesses, do you really think they'd WANT to? For what? So they could give it all back to people who choose to do nothing except fall back on a hand out?

Your idea of wealth distribution caters to those who only want a fish...what about those who want to learn HOW to fish? What would be the point of even wanting that anymore?

That kind of world reeks of "fairness"....and fairness is an illusion propogated by those who want to keep all of us a slaves to a system that is falling apart.

It's like giving a test to a class of students....some get A's, some get D's....and then averaging it out and giving everyone in the class a C, so that it's "fair."

All that does is delude those who got D's into believing in a free ride....and completely minimizes and invalidates those who got A's. How is that fair??

If you were one of those that got an A, would you be motivated to do it again? Or would you be wondering what the point is to even trying? And if you were one of those who got a D, would you try harder to get an A? Why would you need to? No one's gonna get an A no matter what they do.

Would you reallly want to lock everyone up into "sameness?" Are you gonna be the one to look into the eyes of a child and tell them "No, you can't build something bigger and better than Disneyland, cuz it wouldn't be fair to those who don't want to do that"?

It is the very nature of humanity to strive for more. Do you really want to take that away?

[Solomon]

The question is ... not been rich..is how you get there. Honestly? steping on people? etc. etc. If is achived with hard work and ethicaly ...good on you. The problem is that when they are on the "roller coaster" cant stop, allways is MORE.. Very sad indid. Also unfortunatly this days, the "sistem " do not let you be on a level on wich you are cofortable,as you are "taken over" or destroyed by the BIG end of town. A very sad world we created.

there are many ways to becoming wealthy.... and all of'em require an understanding of how money works in the real world, and knowing the difference between an asset and a liability

i think what darkeyes is trying to say is that because employees are considered to be either assets or liabilities depending on their performance that they're being 'dehumanized'.... and maybe to some extent that's true

but the truth is that it's fair, because the employees do agree to be at work, and frankly for the most part will not even consider using the income they do recieve to do much more than educate themselves at a college, or university so they can do it all over again with a higher paycheck and maybe better working environment.... problem is they're still going to be broke, just at a higher lifestyle, cuz now they have a bigger income but they haven't fixed their problem of spending money on liabilities before even considering investing

or they'll work all kinds of overtime, or get a second or third job, or send their wives to work, or whatever..... but NONE of those actions is going to do anything to get ahead of the game, like it or not

those things'll create a temporary infusion of cash an most people'll use that buy a boat, or furniture, or TV's or whatever doodads..... and in the meantime a stock jumps $27.00 in a day..... and if ya buy say 1,000 of'em.... how many TV's could ya buy with that kind of cash?

but it's very easy and alluring to complain about how things just aren't working well..... well, that's true. buying liabilities will do nothing except take money out of your pocket

buying assets may take some money out of your pocket temporarily, but the idea is that they'll put money back into your pocket at some point too....

[Solomon]

Don swallow it..not makin ya Sol..luff ya dearly but we will b on opposite sides wen the world goes 2 hell!!! An a fair chance 2 wealthy??? Don think so. not every1 has either the ruthlessness the ability or want to become wealthy... not every 1 has the ability for wotever reason to stay even on an even keel... so we let some become wealthy an let the rest sink??? I think not.... the capitalist system has neither the ability or capacity for truly being altruistic... therein lies the rub...therin lies its ultimate downfall...an therein lies us being on opposite sides when the shite flies....

We dont agree fine...but be cheery...me do wot me can for ya wen they putya up gainst that wall!!!..hope u wud do same for me..tee hee

if i'm always cheery when disagreeing, then i would be lying to you

i would be hiding the emotional content of me from you... and your own signature says that i shouldn't think so little of you as to do that....

and the truth is what you talk about with re-distributing the wealth scares the crap outta me for the reasons i've given

but what you're talking about seems to be becoming more and more the expectation.... and i find it to be a smear on anyone that has genuinely struggled blood, sweat, an tears to excel beyond the normalcy :(

[Solomon]

Don swallow it..not makin ya Sol..luff ya dearly but we will b on opposite sides wen the world goes 2 hell!!! An a fair chance 2 wealthy??? Don think so. not every1 has either the ruthlessness the ability or want to become wealthy... not every 1 has the ability for wotever reason to stay even on an even keel... so we let some become wealthy an let the rest sink??? I think not.... the capitalist system has neither the ability or capacity for truly being altruistic... therein lies the rub...therin lies its ultimate downfall...an therein lies us being on opposite sides when the shite flies....

We dont agree fine...but be cheery...me do wot me can for ya wen they putya up gainst that wall!!!..hope u wud do same for me..tee hee

yes, it's a fair chance.... it's just as fair and a hell of a lot easier now than it's ever been in history to become wealthy

and if it truly requires being ruthless, then there's a hell of alot of millionaires and billionaires that just shouldn't be, 'cuz i keep hearing just the opposite.....

and as far as 'letting' some become wealthy... i beg to differ, i don't think it's like there's a wealth god that just checks his notebook computer to determine who's been naughty and nice....

and as far as being altruistic.... there really is no such animal that i'm aware of... it's all really vanity when ya break it down anyways

oh yes.... and i do post when i get a chance.... sorry if that takes up time on your weekend lol

[darkeyes]

yes, it's a fair chance.... it's just as fair and a hell of a lot easier now than it's ever been in history to become wealthy

and if it truly requires being ruthless, then there's a hell of alot of millionaires and billionaires that just shouldn't be, 'cuz i keep hearing just the opposite.....

and as far as 'letting' some become wealthy... i beg to differ, i don't think it's like there's a wealth god that just checks his notebook computer to determine who's been naughty and nice....

and as far as being altruistic.... there really is no such animal that i'm aware of... it's all really vanity when ya break it down anyways

oh yes.... and i do post when i get a chance.... sorry if that takes up time on your weekend lol Oops the two of ya gangin up on a helpless lil angel..shame onya Flex n Sol... tee hee

To some extent it probably is true that its easier for people to become wealthy...but wealth is relative, and to a great extent what many people are now would have been considered wealthy even 20 years ago, but is now commonplace. Thats not because of any magnanimous gesture by the power elite but a measure of progress which has always happened throughout history. It may yet turn out to be illusory, or at least temporary for I am not confident that humanity can sustain it at the pace it currently moves at. But for all that there remains a massive gulf which is obscene between rich and poor...one of which humanity should be ashamed, and indeed is not necessary, certainly not desirable.

Regarding ruthlessness or otherwise, anecdote and reality are very different animals . I have heard at firist hand wealthy and "nice" wealthy people say how soft and generous and nice they are to their employees.. I have also heard those very same employess on telly battling to keep their jobs or fight against pay cuts or sackings or redundancies from that self same "nice" self same employer. And I have joined their picket lines at some discomiture to my personal life.Self made millionaires dont get to be millionaires without stomping on people and being ruthless..they are not "nice"...it is a contradiction which my love you are going to have to sort out in your own head.

"Nice" millionaires, and I have met one or 2, are those from what is called "old money", and who usually are not of the business world in the same way...they have not had to be ruthless. Yet some are "nice", many are condescending and patronising, and yes some even nasty and loathesome about we the working class yobbos of the world. Some even agree with me, though not too many.

Trying to think...where did I say there is a wealth God?? or that people are allowed to become wealthy?? It is a fact that it is easier if your family is wealthy already, or you went to the right school or university to become wealthy in your own right, for it opens doors which the rest of us have no access to. The "old school tie" syndrome. That in itself is questionable ethically, not as a principle but as a practice for it by definition must exclude the rest of us. It is how the wealthy retain their power...

I beg to differ regarding altruism..to those who currently are wealthy enough to be able to afford to be altruistic I agree it is vanity on their part.. but hopefully, and its an ideal Sol, some day the world will be truly altruistic. It does exist, and will exist in a more pure form some day, though probably not in our lifetimes.

And me luffly Flex.. I have never argued for sameness, for eveness of wealth distribution, where we all have exactly the same, where our invention and innovation is stifled, where art and culture withers and dies, which is what you seem to think I am saying.

I do not wear rose tinted specs..I know the frailties of human beings and I know they will never be radically improved over night or a generation or a century and more. I am socialist...a realist who is all too aware of all of this.. I do not argue for sameness for all, but fairness and a more even distribution of wealth, resources and opportunity to all of humanity, where millions have nothing and a few have control over 80% and more of the worlds wealth and power. Economic justice for all...

Sure I believe that many industries should be owned by the people as public corporations, certainly essential industries like water, power and public transport... but many can remain in private hands, and small business would still be able to thrive, but these would have to be far more regulated to stop abuse of human dignity than they currently are. But thats another issue, though linked. A place would still exist for the entrepeneur, and for innovation and invention and for people become more prosperous than their neighbours and friends..but what would not be tolerated, and should not be, is the vast obscene share of resources, wealth and power that a few have under the system we live under now.

No one is saying, certainly not me, that we take from the rich their wealth and hand it over and make everyone have the same amount of money... what I am saying is that we prohibit vast wealth, and the resources are used by the people, through the state, a truly democratic state, not the sham of democracy we have now, to improve the living conditions, the opportunites for those who have less, often so little, and sometimes Flex, nothing at all.

It is possible to create a society where none are broke, where everyone has a fair share of all the beneifits of that society, but where none have massive privilege..where none need to have 2 and 3 jobs to make ends meet, where everyone can feel useful and contribute to the good of all. Its my vision.. and my dream.. and I dont think it a bad one..and I think its achievable.

I could go on Flex and Sol about a communist society, which no state on earth has ever had, not even a socialist one for that matter.. for all what some nations called themselves and your history books and media may tell you...but thats the stage after my dream is achieved...and it will be for others a long way down the line to take up that mantle. Even could do on about a society based on anarchy, which is not as frightening as it sounds, and certainly is not what many anarchists, and definitely not governments and media tell us it is. But I wont, I just want to share my dream...not fall out with my friends..simply share what I think is achievable in the not too distant future..a way which I think is better and more fair to all of humanity, not simply a wealthy and powerful elite.

[darkeyes]

Postin at weekend..... me takes a dim view of it Sol....an now u got the wife doin it..eeeeeeeeeeeeekkk. luff ya both :tong:

[darkeyes]

if i'm always cheery when disagreeing, then i would be lying to you

i would be hiding the emotional content of me from you... and your own signature says that i shouldn't think so little of you as to do that....

and the truth is what you talk about with re-distributing the wealth scares the crap outta me for the reasons i've given

but what you're talking about seems to be becoming more and more the expectation.... and i find it to be a smear on anyone that has genuinely struggled blood, sweat, an tears to excel beyond the normalcy :(
An there nuthin 2 be scared of...fairness is nuthin 2 be scared of..an u think in my vision of society peps aint gonna work an graft their goolies off to better themselves??? Have never argued that..an never will...

[Solomon]

Postin at weekend..... me takes a dim view of it Sol....an now u got the wife doin it..eeeeeeeeeeeeekkk. luff ya both :tong:

could blame the employer.... i work Sat. to Wed. so i'm a bit more active than on my weekends of Thurs. an Fri..... and you're in shit now for callin' Flex 'the wife' lol! :tong:

[Solomon]

An there nuthin 2 be scared of...fairness is nuthin 2 be scared of..an u think in my vision of society peps aint gonna work an graft their goolies off to better themselves??? Have never argued that..an never will...

yeah... there's probably nothing to worry 'bout in that regards.... i don't see the system changing that drastically in this lifetime

and i also think that peeps ain't going to work their goolies off to better themselves.... i don't wanna work..... that's why i work harder now, so at some point weekends won't be an issue for me :tong: :tongue:

oh.... an Flex has been around hundreds of millionares over the years.... she has yet to have more than a handful actually be what she would call ruthless....

i've been around a number of'em myself..... though not as many as flex, but still same thing....

'course management on most all levels are for the most part very ruthless.... i know of some managers that would slice their mom's throats for a buck if they didn't have one....

[The Cheshire Cat]

I read a good book many, many years ago on this very subject. Though it is a cautionary tale..it really helped to form my political philosophy. (yeah-sometimes a work of fiction can do that lol). The book is- The Dispossessed: An Ambiguous Utopia by Ursula K. Le Guin. It is a story about to worlds and two very different societies. The mother world is a capitalist society where men and women are unequal, and there is a huge gap between the rich and the poor. The rich are extremely wealthy and the poor are unemployed and holding demonstrations. Made up of different countries-most are at war. the other planet is made up up anarchists who fled the mother planet to form a better society..they have no goverment, no established religion, unique computer generated names and few possessions. The people are taught not to "egoize" and to comdemn profiteering. the story is told thru one man's eyes, as he leaves on planet to find a better place.. A truly interesting book that makes you think.

[the mage]

Well America, you're not going to be taking any dam thing back any time soon as evidenced in this thread.
Unfortunately all your talk of 'us v/s them" rich v/s poor is completely meaningless for the next generation.
The class war has always existed, but the playing field is changed under the warriors.
Politician have alway run for office to achieve personal power not to better your life.
True progress has always been achieved by VOLUNTEERS who join civic groups and hound the hell out of politicians to get them to push change. They are the dreaded :special interests: now so maligned.

You're not seeing the fact that corporations and the "profit at all costs" men who run the world wide entities do just that. Run the world...into the ground.

The sick and twisted personality that is the corporation now seeks its labor and supplies world wide, in places where your poorest street bums look wealthy to the locals there. You cannot compete.
They have grown so large that the process of swallowing each other up is under way. Walmartism is at hand.
Mean time the reality of there being 5.5 billion too many people alive persists unchecked. We are eating up the "greening" and burying it in shit so you can have an ipod. etc. faster than ever.
So long as you continue to defend the notion of "profit" as being the just end of any endeavor you are done as a society.
The much lost notion of "the greater good", which is the original concept of profit, might have stopped the rape of the planet at one time but its too late.......We are just too many people...

[darkeyes]

Just as George Orwell wrote 1984 to express his vision of how a Stalinist society would develop(and with 4 million cctv cameras in the UK alone, its not Stalinist societies which are going big brother) Ursula le Guin like any good novelist wrote The Dispossessed from her judgement and view of the world and the tale was formed from her understanding and prejudices of society and societies, and ideologies. This is not to condemn her for it is a beautifully crafted book, for it is how any good writer writes. Similarly we form our own opinions from our understanding of the world around us, as well as from our media and education which is where so much of our understanding is wrought from, and what we wish to see our world to look like, as well as literature. Often these offer a false picture of the reality, and we should always be very careful of adopting what we see and read per se..

As a thinking person I try to formulate my vision and my opinions by filtering out what is the bad and to try and offer solutions and a vision of how things could be. I do not say that my vision is the only one, or even the best, but it is the best I have found and can think of. It is rough, it is incomplete, but it is a starting point, and there are better people than I, with greater knowledge and understanding who would develop and formulate the theory to the reality. We all have a part to play in creating what we wish to see, but I am but 1 of 6 billion people and more on the planet, and as such would play but a minor role in achieving my dream of a fairer more just socialist society in my own country far less the world. But it is valid, and I believe achievable, and it is what I strive for in my life.

I do not share Sol's cynicism of people not wanting to work. God I am no great lover of my job, but had I not married I would now be in the career of my choice, and hence contributing to the education of teenage children and hopefully the betterment of our society. Like anyone else, I love doing what I love doing, and the prospect of doing as a job that which excites me and for which I have dreamed since being a child must surely be better than sitting hum drum doing a job I loathe. My vision of a society includes as far as we are able fitting round pegs into round holes, and it is that which a truly egalitarian and properly thought out education system should help identify for the children of tomorrow. The world is not structured for that now, and wiith the current system it will never be, though for the life of me I will never understand why, since surely even under a free enterprise system this should be an aim. I simply believe that where people are employed doing what they like, for fair pay, fair treatment, fair working conditions and with knowledge that they are contributing to the betterment of our world, hence the betterment of themselves and their children, the sit on your arse, hate work, cant be bothered syndrome would become negligible. Because people would see, and feel that what they do, and what they achieve is an enjoyable occupation to them, provides them with their wants and needs, meets their aspirations, and makes the world more pleasant to live in.

It may be that you have been lucky enough Sol to know some millionaires, and flex hundreds... I have known but a few and my experience is not as yours. Social excursions with the wealthy are not quite the same as the practical reality of working for them. The fact that many employ managers to do their dirty work for them displays a different kind of ruthlessness..a callousness which being divorced from the reality enables them to hold on to their power, wealth and position. Many are perfectly pleasant on a 1 to 1.. or at a party....but meet them in their day job?? Now then we see the truthful face of the millionaire. I am very cynical of them as you will have noticed. They are like smooth used car salesmen, who sell you an old banger which breaks down a few miles down the road and then blame you for your awful driving. They have a public persona...and they have their private persona...then they have their business persona.... and with each, we see a very different wealthy man or woman.

And Flex??? Your not 'is wife???? tee hee... Sowwy babes.. (looks shame faced) :bigrin:

[Solomon]

fran..... i just want to drop a quick note here

i actually do encourage your dream to come true.... and at some point it will

as soon as the tech catches up...

i don't argue with your vision of the world...... i only argue that it's not implementable at this point, and try to encourage you that your chip on your shoulder regarding millionares is unfounded when it's applied across the board

not all who attain wealth are as you suggest

and seeing as how i don't have the power to change the system as it is.... i better do whatever it takes to work within the system.....

[flexuality]

LOL Fran...yes, I am HIS wife....not "the wife" :tongue:

and I post of me own free will, not cuz Sol "got me to" geeeesh! :tong:

I do wonder though.....are we talking about the same thing when it comes to wealthy people?? Day jobs?? What day jobs??

I am not talking about CEO's or those who climb the corporate ladder....gawd, most of the time that route leads right to where you keep talking about!

Sol's right...I have been around a lot of millionaires over my lifetime, but not the corporate ladder crawlers. The vast majorilty of them agree that the stomping on people, climbing that ladder, getting rich at the expense of others is NOT the way to go.

Matter of fact, I have spent time with people who have walked AWAY from the corporate ladder, stomping, belittling world in order to build wealth in a way that does NOT do that.

And I am not talking about some social event or some kind of "hobnobbing" thing....these are genuine, caring people who honestly want to see others get ahead of this game called life, and not have to worry about just getting to the next paycheck, or hoping like hell that the water heater holds out til after the 2 week vacation, or throwing all the bills into a hat, and pulling one out to see who gets paid that month.

These people do not have jobs. They do not have employees. And they are not "sit on your arse, hate work, cant be bothered" types either.

A lot of them hold a vison similar to yours, with a few key differences. My and Sol's vision is not so very different from yours either...but there are some key differences.

People without financial education will not be able to do much with money other than spend it. It's just a fact of life. Financial literacy is not taught in schools, and yet it is the world we live in, like it or not.

**don't get me started on the education system....I homeschool now cuz I got so fed up with the bullshit being taught....but that's another thread! lol!**

My point is that there ARE people with wealth who are NOT back stabbers, stompers and ruthless ladder climbers who did not achieve their wealth by that means and who loathe that route as much as anyone else. There ARE wealthy people who believe that everyone deserves a fair crack at the whip and there are those who believe in that so strongly that they will put THEIR time and THEIR money into giving someone a hand UP (not a hand OUT).

But ya know what? There are a far, far greater number of people who would rather stay broke, continue wondering which bill will get paid this month, and keep hoping that the water heater will hold out til after thier 2 week vacation. And most of them hate their jobs.

Now, how ya gonna take 95% of the population and put them into jobs they like doing? Most people are not willing to relocate and move away from family and friends. Most people are in the job they're in because it's close to where they live. Some are fortunate enough to find local work doing what they like doing....but most don't.

There is a huge number of people who have spent years in college and university who come out with a degree and end up working in a field totally unrelated to their education. And they have an enormous debtload from tuitions to boot, before they even get off the ground.

And how do you insure that there is work for everyone that is what they like doing? I just have a hard time picturing someone saying "yeah...it's been my lifelong dream to collect garbage or clean up road kill or work with sewage" and yet those things need to be done too. Certain jobs get filled because they PAY well, not because people necessarily want to do them.

I guess the way I see it, is that the system's not going to change unless people first understand HOW the system works...and that takes financial education. As long as the majority of the population remains financially ignorant, then those who have the money will always have it.

But I do not believe it is a matter of taking it from them. That approach will get nowhere fast. With financial education that empowers people to make their own wealth, and not having to rely on the CEO's for employment, then the need for the "elite" (as you call them) will naturally disappear. If people no longer need a job, then they are out from under the thumb of the ladder crawlers.....and the ladders will fall.

A lot of people won't pursue their own wealth, but it doesn't take everyone to splinter those ladders.

And from that, your vision (with a few tweaks :tong: ) would naturally evolve.

[darkeyes]

Sol babes..we jus aint gonna agree on millionares...an thats ok....m8s disagree.... don mean me don uff ya ya sod...jus means me thinls ya talkin cobblers! Wy me keeps on bout this is cos me has passion bout it..an won run away from it...its jus toooooo important 2 me.

Not sure wot tech has 2 do wiv ne thin....maybe human enlightenment.... at this point prob it isnt implemetable, an so don disagee...but much is, an do think the rest is in my lifetime...or at least much of it.... an wot me thinks is achevable I will fite for...ne thin extra is a bonus.

Am a idealist Sol... believe with a pash wot me preaches...wot me wonts 2 see... an so am much more sceptical an cynical bout the rich than r u...but at same time am sufficiently realistic 2 know my side has fite on its hands, an our case is not yet proven 2 the satisfaction of the jury of humanity. An in time think that my side will win an prove that case...hope so ne ways....

[darkeyes]

God flex..am just in from gud nite out...no way me can ansa ya tome....bit 2 sozzed...Sols wos easy.....short an concise.....cant take all ur thingie on now...but will.. lemme unfog me head from the abuse its had, hav gud kip an take in wot ya sed tomoz.... jus tell the hubbie (tee hee) bout time u wer cuffed on a sunday morn..keep ya way from keyboard!! luff ya ya tart...an im.... God yas gives me a hard time at weekends!

[flexuality]

Wy me keeps on bout this is cos me has passion bout it..an won run away from it...its jus toooooo important 2 me.

I guess this thread could go on forever.....cuz me an Sol both have passion 'bout our view too! And I have extra stubborness for when his wears out.....tee hee!! :tong:

[flexuality]

God flex..am just in from gud nite out...no way me can ansa ya tome....bit 2 sozzed...Sols wos easy.....short an concise.....cant take all ur thingie on now...but will.. lemme unfog me head from the abuse its had, hav gud kip an take in wot ya sed tomoz.... jus tell the hubbie (tee hee) bout time u wer cuffed on a sunday morn..keep ya way from keyboard!! luff ya ya tart...an im.... God yas gives me a hard time at weekends!

LOL!! u luv it!! :bigrin:
At least someone's listenin to ya talkin cobblers! tee hee!! :tong: :bigrin: :tong:

ooooo....cuffs? :tong:

[darkeyes]

I guess this thread could go on forever.....cuz me an Sol both have passion 'bout our view too! And I have extra stubborness for when his wears out.....tee hee!! :tong:
an we girls neva wear out our pash... poor pitiful men! tee hee

[darkeyes]

LOL!! u luv it!! :bigrin:
At least someone's listenin to ya talkin cobblers! tee hee!! :tong: :bigrin: :tong:

ooooo....cuffs? :tong:
Me getcha tart!.. lix :bigrin:

[ukmale32]

Al Gore was your last hope for a corrupt goverment system. Money & oil are what is driving America & helping to destroy the world through global warming. While over here in the UK we might not have the best goverment - but it works well. Our only problem is the ties our goverment have with the American goverment. Which is the reason why the UK is also in Iraq. I like most Americans I've ever met. I am not anti American.

You need to sort out the idiots in the White House & change the culture of your country - which is near on impossible.

Bill Hicks had a lot to say on the above. All still relevant today. Shame he's been dead 10 years or more.

[Solomon]

Sol babes..we jus aint gonna agree on millionares...an thats ok....m8s disagree.... don mean me don uff ya ya sod...jus means me thinls ya talkin cobblers! Wy me keeps on bout this is cos me has passion bout it..an won run away from it...its jus toooooo important 2 me.

Not sure wot tech has 2 do wiv ne thin....maybe human enlightenment.... at this point prob it isnt implemetable, an so don disagee...but much is, an do think the rest is in my lifetime...or at least much of it.... an wot me thinks is achevable I will fite for...ne thin extra is a bonus.

Am a idealist Sol... believe with a pash wot me preaches...wot me wonts 2 see... an so am much more sceptical an cynical bout the rich than r u...but at same time am sufficiently realistic 2 know my side has fite on its hands, an our case is not yet proven 2 the satisfaction of the jury of humanity. An in time think that my side will win an prove that case...hope so ne ways....

that's what i'm saying... the tech could make it so that it would be implementable

let's face it... as long as there's a demand for products and services that people are willing to pay for, then there's going to be a wealthy class, even in a socialist ideology

however, with the advances that they have been making with quantum physics it just might be plausible to have replication technology within the next decade or so.... i'm actually upgrading the time table because of the severely excellerated speed within the last decade of technological advancement, and the fact that they can already do this with tiny tiny things

and when it's possible to manipulate atoms on a large scale to produce the products that are now available only through manufacturing processes then your system has a very real chance of becoming a reality

that kind of device would have an such an impact on business as to nullify the need for business..... thereby virtually eliminating the elite as you call'em..... without causing a catastrophic collapse of the system as we know it

that could actually make such an impact as to be bigger than the advent of the internet....

oh... and since we would need atoms to manipulate (something flex's pointing out to me) how 'bout waste products? ya'll wanna save the planet? how 'bout the ultimate in recycling?

[Solomon]

oh and as far as people calculating how long it's gonna take to run out of oil... and America being driven by oil

they've started to manufacture it.... so would ya'll relax a bit? it's not going to run out for christ's sake!

[canuckotter]

oh and as far as people calculating how long it's gonna take to run out of oil... and America being driven by oil

they've started to manufacture it.... so would ya'll relax a bit? it's not going to run out for christ's sake!
It takes energy to make oil. What is oil used for? Producing energy. Which means that we can't possibly produce enough oil to satisfy our increasing energy demands unless we first find some other way to satisfy those demands and use oil merely as a convenient way to store lots of energy.

[darkeyes]

It takes energy to make oil. What is oil used for? Producing energy. Which means that we can't possibly produce enough oil to satisfy our increasing energy demands unless we first find some other way to satisfy those demands and use oil merely as a convenient way to store lots of energy.
an ther s the environemental cost canuck.....more pollution more destruction of rain forest for the oil crops more use of ground which shud b used for food.... ho hum..wot a short sighted species we r...

[the mage]

RUN OUT OF OIL??

Gawd I find that laughable...
We are SO going to run out of oil!!
But you needn't worry about that because drinking water and food will be long missing for most of the worlds people. Theres your next war.

Oil, here's an oil fact.. It takes a litre or more of natural gas to create 1 usable litre of oil from Canada's tar sands. At the current rate of consumption the tar sand project will use up every last drop of Canada's natural gas supply in 20 years leaving nothing for home use. The powers in charge are forging ahead blithely saying "no problem in 10 years there will be technology to solve that problem."

The magic 10 year fix still leaves us all with most of the natural gas gone.

this is the thinking of the corporate body..Obscene.

[Solomon]

yeah.... it currently's not very efficient to produce oil.... just like the first computer was not much more than a mere room sized calculator.....

and the corporate world is short sighted??

then again they used to believe that the world would always be flat too... maybe it should've stayed that way...

[darkeyes]

Why do I find your last post so offensive and condescending Sol??? I didnt even mention the corporate world...but it is corporate power which does make us so far more than we would otherwise be... if there is a flat earther hun..you are he...

And my fear is Mage is right.. we may not need oil after we have wiped ourselves and almost everything else out.. still look on the bright side..maybe mother nature will come up with a plan and life will develop along a slightly improved path and in a few hundred millions years the oil and other fossil fuel stocks will be replenished by the trees and other flora and their descendants that we have been unable to destroy.. to be used more wisely by some thinking creatures descended from the ants!! But there again maybe not...maybe we will just carry on in our merry ole way an finish off every vestige of life on the planet...

No use nipping to the bookies and putting a bet on it cos either way u cant collect...

[elian]

oOOh..I tried to stay out of this but it just pushes too many buttons. I have always been fascinated by the interaction of people and technology throughout history. It amazes me that we still have folks with "Titanic Arrogance" in positions of power - are there STILL Victorian folks out there who really think science will "herald a brave new era" ? (of half-truths, to benefit some select group)

The problem we have here in the US - is that technology is used like a "hood-ornament". It's all flash - the latest f'king gadgets - "Oh look at me - I'm IMPORTANT".

Never mind that the microwaves from that antenna around the kids waist are frying his testicles - or the amount of energy it takes to CREATE that PCB board, or wherever the !@ll it goes once he decides he don't WANT that one because the marketers burrowed into his brain and convinced him he needs the latest and greatest next years model with full-motion-video (at 2 frames per second 'cause the vendors are too busy blowing legal smoke up each other's asses, squabbling and competing. They haven't bothered to standardize and upgrade the damn network across the entire country).

In a way competition is good because it encourages innovation, but some times all this bantering back and forth drives me up a wall.

I had a dream once, I was walking with a guide or someone through a forest. It was weird though because you could tell - there was technology in EVERYTHING .. like nano-tech or something - but it wasn't an "in your face" status symbol - it was ubiquitous, and it was in the background. In the foreground where things that were REALLY important - life, love, family, career/work - the technology was certainly there - but the focus wasn't ON the technology. The culture driving the use of the technology wasn't neurotic like what we have here.

I'm not advocating pure capitalism or pure socialism - both of those have problems due to what happens when you take human nature, throw it into a hostile environment with limited resources

For example - the great economists here in the US can't figure out where all of this "shocking violence" is coming from - they must not have a formula to measure the effect of what happens when you bring market forces to bear on human beings. Human beings are not widgets - look at the riots in France.

By the same token - I do not think a pure socialist society would work either because with human nature there will ALWAYS be some people who have "heart and ass trouble" - they don't have the heart to get up off their ass - and continuously look for ways to circumvent having to work in the system and still receive the benefits. if these people would apply HALF of the ingenuity they have in their brains for working out disability cons to NORMAL work they'd be f'king geniuses.

Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power.We have guided missiles and misguided men.
- Martin Luther King, Jr.

[canuckotter]

yeah.... it currently's not very efficient to produce oil.... just like the first computer was not much more than a mere room sized calculator.....

and the corporate world is short sighted??

then again they used to believe that the world would always be flat too... maybe it should've stayed that way...
We're talking basic physics, Sol. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, merely changed from one form to another. No matter how efficient your oil creation process, it will always take at least a little more energy to make the oil than the oil itself provides. That energy has to come from somewhere. Solar? Wind? Fission? Fusion? Tides? Hydro? Biofuels? Geothermal?

[flexuality]

RUN OUT OF OIL??

Gawd I find that laughable...
We are SO going to run out of oil!!
But you needn't worry about that because drinking water and food will be long missing for most of the worlds people. Theres your next war.

Oil, here's an oil fact.. It takes a litre or more of natural gas to create 1 usable litre of oil from Canada's tar sands. At the current rate of consumption the tar sand project will use up every last drop of Canada's natural gas supply in 20 years leaving nothing for home use. The powers in charge are forging ahead blithely saying "no problem in 10 years there will be technology to solve that problem."

The magic 10 year fix still leaves us all with most of the natural gas gone.

this is the thinking of the corporate body..Obscene.

"...drinking water and food will be long missing....."
You base that conclusion on .....what??

"this is the thinking of the corporate body"
Sounds like the conspiracy theorists bizarre conclusions.......

Since when is oil the only source of energy??

The biggest problem is that oil has become what world economy is based on right now....

[flexuality]

The problem we have here in the US - is that technology is used like a "hood-ornament". It's all flash - the latest f'king gadgets - "Oh look at me - I'm IMPORTANT".

Some is....but we wouldn't be having this debate without technology would we?


Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power.We have guided missiles and misguided men.
- Martin Luther King, Jr.

I do agree with that! But probably from a different perspective than most people....there needs to be balance, not "one or the other" thinking.

[Solomon]

Why do I find your last post so offensive and condescending Sol??? I didnt even mention the corporate world...but it is corporate power which does make us so far more than we would otherwise be... if there is a flat earther hun..you are he...

And my fear is Mage is right.. we may not need oil after we have wiped ourselves and almost everything else out.. still look on the bright side..maybe mother nature will come up with a plan and life will develop along a slightly improved path and in a few hundred millions years the oil and other fossil fuel stocks will be replenished by the trees and other flora and their descendants that we have been unable to destroy.. to be used more wisely by some thinking creatures descended from the ants!! But there again maybe not...maybe we will just carry on in our merry ole way an finish off every vestige of life on the planet...

No use nipping to the bookies and putting a bet on it cos either way u cant collect...

i have no idea why you found my post to be offensive and condescending.... and i'm sorry if you feel that it was

i wanted to duck outta this controversy a long time past now... i should've just done it, 'cuz now it's getting into what's in store for the future? i have NO idea! i don't have a crystal ball that i can see what's going to happen tomorrow let alone ten, twenty years down the road.... and i fail to see the point of thinking disaster in the future when it's not here yet

all i can say is where things seem to be heading now.... and that certain cycles tend to be repetitive, that's all i know

and right now there are certain cycles that suggest that there's going to be advancements in the very near future that are going to be extremely impactful.... even moreso than the advent of the internet... and no i'm not going to get into what all these cycles are, cuz i might as well try to write a book on the forums here

[Fresia]

Have at it, folks!
There's a lot more at stake now.
Look at how far we've fallen since 2007.

[pole_smoker]

Have at it, folks!
There's a lot more at stake now.
Look at how far we've fallen since 2007.
You can thank Barak 0bama, his administration, and pretty much all world leaders, and politicians in the United States, and around the world for that.

[charles-smythe]

Revolutions don't have to be guns and barricades a la Les Miserables.

I believe America had as close to a revolution as possible without guns in the late 60's - early 70's.
A whole generation rebelled against an injust war and against unfair domestic social policies.

I think maybe most democracies have these upheavals - it cleanses the national spirit without any real violence....have you ever heard of successful 'peaceful' revolution?...

[pole_smoker]

Revolutions don't have to be guns and barricades a la Les Miserables.


I believe America had as close to a revolution as possible without guns in the late 60's - early 70's.
A whole generation rebelled against an injust war and against unfair domestic social policies.


I think maybe most democracies have these upheavals - it cleanses the national spirit without any real violence.


The late 60s and early 70s were very violent in many ways including at war protests and political demonstrations, and it wasn't all peace, love, and harmony mixed in with sex, drugs, and rock and roll. Not everyone back then was against the Vietnam war, or against unfair domestic social policies.

[charles-smythe]

well the Civil War was basically another revolution, and it was successful, this was a different country after the war, a loose union of states was replaced with a strong Central government, just as some of the founding fathers feared. The 10th amendment was (with out actually saying it explicitly) repealed by the 14th. and bigger is never better government wise....amen...