Why so few men are openly bi

[BiMSlutDFW]

I've talked to a fair number of bi men in my time, and a fair number of ladies who love them.
I'm sure we've all noticed that on most places, bi women are considered ultra sexy, a delightful expression of passion. I'm sure most of us at least have also noticed that in those same places, bi men are anathema, worse than gay men even, something you don't even discuss.

Has it occurred to you that this might NOT be accidental?

No, I'm not talking conspiracy theories here. Nor am I implying that it is the result of a deliberate decision on anyone's part. But I believe it IS obvious and predictable, an inevitable result of survival instinct and human social dynamics. Does that mean it cannot be changed? Not at all. It can be changed, and fairly quickly and easily, I think.

1) Survival instinct and social dynamics: If you accept the theory of evolution and natural selection as a good set of working assumptions, then any attribute that acts to make members of a species more likely to survive
and breed will tend to show up in later generations. The basic facts of human biology are that a woman can produce an average of up to one child per year, for perhaps 35 to 40 years. Those are the approximate maximum limits of the individual engine which produces human babies. A man, on the other hand, is biologically capable of fathering hundreds of children per year for approximately the same time span, perhaps a bit longer.
Therefore in evolutionary terms, each human female is several hundred times as valuable as any given human male. In short, men are expendable, women are not. With a little thought, I feel certain you can see how this shows up EVERYWHERE in human interaction. From "women and children first" to who opens doors for whom, to who is able to stand on a streetcorner with the power to CHARGE someone to have sex.
Am I griping about this? Not at all. It's like griping about the sun coming up or the tide coming in. Some days it's annoying, sure. Some days it's wonderful. But either way, there's nothing anyone can do about it, nor isit anyone's fault. It's just a fact, something that has an objective existence regardless of what you or I think about it, like the sunrise or the tide. The bottom line is that women, especially hot, highly fuckable women, are the bosses in human social interaction, and always will be. That was true even when women were treated as property everywhere, it's true today in Western civilization, it's going to be true as long as human biology is the way it is. It's a constant, and can be treated as one.

2) What can be done about it: Keep in mind, I am NOT suggesting anything can, or should, be done about our most delightful sluts leading us all around by our cocks, and sometimes clits. But since they DO have that power, they may as well use it to further their own ends, as all people do. If you're a delicious little fucktoy that's being hit on ALL the time, and you have a preference for or fantasies about bi men, SAY SO. I'm sure you have noticed that men are NOT bashful about telling you they want to see you with another woman. So what's holding you back?

I'm not a government worker doing statistical analysis or anything, so I don't have figures for the world at my fingertips, or anywhere within reach for that matter. All I can do is give you the impressions of someone who has lived to go bald and begin going grey, who has been bi since puberty, sometimes open, sometimes not. I've also looked at a fair number of profiles here, been in chat or discussion groups or blogs... Yes, my resources are VERY limited. PLEASE check me for accuracy and offer corrections. And please remember that I'm talking about BI men, not gay men. I don't care what the bigots in various chat rooms say, yes there IS a difference.

Most of the bi men I have known in my life are in a relationship with a woman. I suspect that's actually most men I can FIND OUT are bi. Single men are leghumpers, we all know this. It's basic biology as shown above, get over it. A single, openly bi man expects to be mobbed by offers from every gay male within 100 miles of him. In some places that's exactly what he gets. In others he's subject to being beaten or killed if anyone ever finds out, because "bi=gay" and "gay=KILL IT!" in those places. Either way, he's SINGLE, he's not getting any support from the women around him. So unless he knows down in his gut that a fair percentage of women WANT bi men, he's never going to admit it. To admit it is to either paint a target on your forehead or end up being either gay in fact or celibate, because you never get any opportunities with WOMEN.

(Pause to wonder how many clergymen are closet bi males who got disgusted and gave up sex entirely.)

So no, I don't find it surprising that most of the bi men >>>I can find out about<<< have the support of sexy women to strengthen their resolve. I find it disturbing and dismaying how many of them are cheating on their wives with men. That tells me that a lot of them have given up hope of ever making ANYONE, male or female, understand what they face. I also wonder how common it is for the man to be afraid to tell his lady that he wants men too, while his lady is afraid to tell him that she fantasizes about seeing him with a man. I KNOW it happens because I've been in precisely that situation myself, but I have no basis to guess how common it is.

I have rambled and run on, but that's the point of the whole exercise: If you ladies made it clear that you fantasize about watching men together, WHILE you're still single and out for the hunt, I think we'd all be surprised by how many single men would be saying, "Really? Let me call a friend of mine..."

And a generation from now, if 3 straight guys beat a bi guy's ass for being bi, it would really be cos the straight guys were mad that they weren't getting any pussy!

Slut

[littlerayofsunshine]

Placing blame holds people down. Women, African Americans, Gays, Lesbians ( And many other groups) Gave themselves a voice. They stood up for themselves and showed all who would see that they are real, worthy, and human. Granted each side still has strife. But I have yet so see a group of guys holding up signs and chanting " We're guys, We're BI, get used to it!!!

I will acknowlege people have their own circumstances with revelations and society and I do not punish those for their own life choices. But lets face it, Some guys are holding the guys back from coming out. For alot of men, its just for the kink, the underground taboo sex culture. Not a lifestyle..

I was bi before bi was cool, and I never held back from a mate, that I was who indeed I was. I CHOSE to live my life that way. Not just about my sexuality, but Myself as a whole. I don't stifle myself. I don't try to impress anyone these days, No need to die trying to fit into society, when you are down society won't help you, it won't take care of you, it won't love you and feed you or save you. Only you can and those people who you chose to have around you.


Don't blame women. That's just rediculous. Men have far more control on earth and sex. Us women are still fighting to even the score.

[biwords]

Not sure I agree with your #1. Granted that women are more 'valuable', wouldn't that put pressure on straight men (the majority) to keep women as heterosexual as possible, and therefore to suppress their bisexuality for fear that it would lead to exclusive lesbianism or in any case limit male reproductive opportunities? while at the same time, natural selection should not encourage homophobia, because the existence of gays simply reduces the number of male competitors for females -- good news for straight men!

So, if evolutionary biology is correct (as currently understood), society should (from the biological point of view) severely discourage all forms of lesbianism and encourage homosexuality. Since it doesn't, either the theory or our current understanding of it must be wrong. Comments?

[izzfan]

Interesting question, as for female bisexuality being seen as 'erotic' etc... I think that is mainly due to the way it is shown in straight porn. Also, I think that religion and culture has a large part to play in it - I mean, whenever religious people, legislators etc... in the past have railed against homosexuality/bisexuality then it tends to be focused on male homosexuality. I mean there is that famous story about the 1885 Labrouchere Amendment [the law Oscar Wilde was convicted under] and a few MPs were trying to get lesbianism outlawed in it but apparently, the story goes, that the reason why lesbianism was not outlawed was because Queen Victoria didn't believe that women actually did that with each other.

My guess is that female bisexuality is seen as very attractive etc... is that straight blokes enjoy the idea of watching f/f activity [even if it is only 2 girls kissing] but there is always the theoretical possibility that those women will sleep with the straight bloke too. That's my guess at why female bisexuality is seen as a really good/sexy etc.. thing. However, with male bisexuality it is the complete opposite - there is both misunderstanding and homophobia involved. Yeah, homophobia probably has a lot to do with it, I mean if you introduce yourself as a bisexual man, people tend to think entirely about the gay/same-sex side of it than anything else.

Also there is the issue of representation. I mean, whenever most things show bisexuality they tend to focus on female bisexuality [probably to attract a straight audience and so that it doesn't get pidgeonholed as a 'gay' book/film/play etc....]. I mean, bisexuality as a whole is very under-represented as it it, but male bisexuality is even more under-represented [the only recent show I can think of with male bisexuality in it is 'Torchwood'] and as such, people don't really know much about it and prejudice tends to take over [ eg: thinking that bisexual men are just 'gay men who aren't honest with themseleves/ just trying to stay respectable' (even though it seems more socially acceptable to come out as a gay man than as a bi man these days).

There is also the fact that bisexuality is hard enough to define as it is. I mean, due to homophobia [internalised or otherwise] quite a few men who are probably technically bisexual [eg: have both same and opposite sex attractions regardless of how strong these are] do not identify as such. such as when men 'experiment' with same sex activity in their mid-late teens, identify as 'bi-curious', blokes who think that it still somehow counts as straight if they are the 'top' in m/m sex or recieve oral from other men, etc....
Also, many people seem to think that in order to be bisexual you must have exactly the same number of male and female partners. I guess most guys just tend to identify with the more prominent side of their sexuality [eg: I have met gay blokes who have slept with women in the past but still prefer to identify as gay as that describes the majority of their attractions].

Izzfan :flag2:

[DiamondDog]

Most men that are bisexual in north America are either married and cheat or they're married but don't think of themselves as being bisexual. A Lot of them haven't even had sex with a guy once or ever at all even if they've wanted to. Also, I think that a lot of them realize that they're bi after they get into a closed/exclusive marriage or relationship with a woman.

They see themselves as being "straight" (quoted on purpose like the gay porn sites), they're closeted/on the down low and aren't going to fuck up their relationship with their wife/girlfriend by coming out. So that's why a lot of down low/closted bi men cheat on their wives/girlfriends and why some will get involved with men and give fake names, want to be "discreet", and furtive. Closeted/down low men wouldn't be caught dead in a gay/queer bar/club, don't read gay/queer newspapers/magazines, and don't identify with gay/queer culture at all.

I also agree with biwords in that evolutionary theory is heterocentric and it doesn't say anything about homosexuality or even bisexuality when they're natural components of all types of sexualities of organisms/animals not just the animal known as a human being.

I also don't think that women should be "blamed" because closeted bi men won't come out on their own. Who says that it's a woman's job to help a queer man come out and accept himself?

Nobody can MAKE or FORCE someone else to come out, accept themselves/their sexuality, or feel good about themselves and their sexuality.

It has to be done by the person themselves.

Sure you can talk to people, give them literature to read, tell them your own experiences; but I ultimatley believe that it's up to the person themselves to do it themselves alone. It will make them stronger, it's a personal thing that someone should explore and do on their own, and other people simply don't know you as well as you yourself do.

Homophobia and Biphobia and how society treats queers should be blamed however for people not coming out as bi/gay/queer.

One could argue that women are STILL treated as property even in western civilization and in most of the world. People, men, and most of society are still misogynists and I don't think that most women like being called a "delicious little fucktoy" or being called a slut, as the way the word slut is usually defined in sexist slang terms and used towards women.

What's with the idea that "single men are leg humpers"?

I'm single and I haven't been with anyone sexually in half a year. I have other male friends who are single and haven't been with anyone for a year or 5+ years or even 10 years.

What's with the bad and homophobic stereotype that gay men are so promiscious, or that "A single, openly bi man expects to be mobbed by offers from every gay male within 100 miles of him"?

Not all gay men are sex pigs and as promiscuious as people say or think that they are. The whole stigma of gay men being promiscuous and slutty, it's all image, and heterosexual people think that gay men are promiscuous and slutty since that's all they see in the media and gay/bi/queer men define sex differently than heterosexuals do.

Don't get me started on the heteronormantive concept that anal intercourse between two men is or how many heteros think that when two men are having sex together (even if they're gay/bi/queer) how they HAVE to do anal intercourse since most heteros define sex as being a penis in a vagina or anus only, and don't see the very creative ways that queer men, and queer people have sex with each other that don't happen to involve anal intercourse.

Also, lots of gay men have a certain type. Just because you're only into men sexually and romantically that doesn't mean that you automatically want EVERY single guy that you see, that you'd want a guy only because he's bi, or that this guy would just happen to be your exact type.

Not all gay men are promiscious and into hooking up. Lots of gay men aren't into hook ups with random people. There are gay men who refuse to make out or have sex with anyone that they're not in a closed/exclusive relationship with.

I know a lot of gay men that get VERY annoyed at the gay men that are vapid and just want sex constantly are what most/all gay men are seen like. They also get mad at how gay culture in most people's minds is what they see on TV shows like Queer as Folk where it's drugs, HIV/AIDS, being shallow, sex in public bars where it's an orgy, and hooking up with random stranger.

Also, if a bi man does happen to stop being sexual with women that wouldn't "make" or change him into being him gay. It's like how if a bi man marries a woman or only has sex with a woman it doesn't make him or change him to being heterosexual. Same thing goes if a bi man becomes partnered to a man, it wouldn't make him or change him to being gay.

I know a lot of men who are heterosexual and celibate and don't have sex with women and that doesn't make them gay or want to have sex with men because they can't have sex with women.

Who says that sex with a woman is even NEEDED or essential for all or most bi men?

I have bi friends who are partnered to men and are fine not having sex with women.

Even for myself if I never have sex with a woman again it wouldn't be the end of the world, and I wouldn't go insane.

Do a fair percentage of women want bisexual men?

I'm not sure that they do. Sure some hetero women do want bi men but I'd say that the majority don't. Most women (most people in general in the human population) are heterosexual and most non-queer, (even fellow GLBT/queer people can be homophobic and biphobic too) people in America are homophobic/biphobic in various degrees even if they won't admit it or see themselves as being that way.

People are taught to be homophobic and biphobic by society, family, religion, the media, western civilization, and other things.

Hate crimes and queer bashings don't occur because the other person/people are jealous that they're "not getting any pussy". They occur because people who hate gay/bi/queer people are bigots and want to become violent towards the people who they hate.

I've seen people's marriages and relationships end because a man came out as bisexual to his heterosexual wife/girlfriend. I've also talked to a lot of heterosexual women who don't want relationships with bisexual men or who would feel threatened or physically sick if their husband/boyfriend came out as bi since they're under the assumption that the guy that they're with is heterosexual, since most heteros assume that mostly EVERYONE is heterosexual just like they are and the majority of people are and the human population is.

I love sex with men but I don't need a woman present in order to do it and most of the men I've had sex with are gay so it'd be pointless to ask a woman to watch us or have sex with us. My gay friends don't want anything to do with women sexually, find women/women's bodies to be gross/icky and there's nothing wrong with this.

I don't NEED women to strengthen my resolve about my sexuality, boost my own self esteem about my queer sexuality, and I don't even care about what women or other people think about me or my sexuality or anything like that since it's my life.

I'm out as a queer man. If people don't like it too bad. I don't need anyone else's approval to be myself.

No matter who I ultimatley end up with they'll know about me long before we get heavily involved and my sexuality would not be an issue between us. I tell people either before dating them, while I'm dating them, or sometime during the process where we're getting to know each other as friends.

[PolyLoveTriad]

All I can think of is what a friend of mine said to me the other day. He has a strong attraction to Transexuals. I asked him if he was bi, he said no. I said ok...

The boy is confused lol but he made a statement that fits this reasoning...

He said he didnt want anyone calling him gay, that he is definetly a manly man and he didnt want people to think otherwise. Im thinking a lot of guys just dont say they are bi cuz they think others will look at them as not being a man or something. I dunno, Im a chick, what do I know :)

[darkeyes]

Izzfan does have a point about female bisexuality, or more accurately, lesbianism..the eroticism of two women making love is so much a male dream, but I dont think it is down to porn being the reason..it may perpetuate the sterotypical attitudes, but porn exists substantially for and because of the dreams of men..women are but the dream and the tool with which they fulfill their sexual desires.

With men it is a different matter, certainly in western societies, where homosexuality between men is not yet considered wholly acceptable by mainstream society. Our dreams and aspirations are substantially determined by men, our attitudes and beliefs, our position in society. For all the progress of the last 40 years, women are still considered the weaker sex, still not truly held to be equal in the eyes of society, and to not believe, for all the progress feminism has made, themselves to be truly worthy to be the equal of men...

Consequently, how women feel about gay and bisexual men, and men as a sex, about themselves is determined by a historical view that two men in a sexual liaison is unclean, unhealthy and an abomination. As a result, even after 40 years of legal homosexuality, so many men remain in the closet, afraid of their own shadow, scared of the worlds condemnation of their nature, unprepared to be honest with those they love, and often with scary and appalling consequences. Certainly many women have the same insecurities, but less so, because it remains a mans world in effect, and after all, women do not tend to penetrate each others rear end with penis do they? Men deep down fear condemnation of their feelings more than we because of their masculine need to be husband, defender and provider.. and many women hold to this view also..who wants to be shagged by a cock that has been up another mans backside? Who wants to suck on a penis which has been where the sun dont shine?? Dare we touch it? Who wants to live and love with a nancy boy??

So men fear..they fear the loathing and contempt of their peers, of their workmates, of their loved ones, their children, parents. It is a fear that women have too, yet because of mens dreams, their eroticism, their need to feel better and more superior than we, we are but the object of desire, making love to each other being an acceptable way of expressing our sexuality, but only until such times as a man steps in after having been worked up and made horny, and shows us what real sex is like... we are therefore less than his equal sexually, morally and intellectually, and as such are as a sex no real threat to him, or so he believes..

All of this plays to the ego of men, in especial heterosexual men, but the damage, the suppression and the destruction wrought on so many of their own sex, and in turn on their familes and friends by these attitudes is an appalling indictment of that ego and his intellectual ability to understand the true nature of human beings.

I may sound contemptuous of men, and think them all arseholes, but I am not, and I do not. I like and love many, I try to understand their insecurities, and wish that things were different than they are. They are the victims, as are we all, but them more so when it comes to homo and bisexuality, of a Judeo-Christian Society whose attitudes were determined centuries ago to preserve the power and standing of men, and the "equal" yet dfferent status of women. While we, the so called weaker sex can and I hope will help and stand shoulder to shoulder with our men kin, Ray is absolutely right.. until bisexual men truly decide to give themselves a voice, a political voice in the way of other minority groups over the last half century and more, nothing will change very much. In this the Gay and lesbian community could be of more help, but within that community is so much of the prejudice against us, that not so long ago existed against them within western societies as a whole.

I want us, and all sexualities to be truly free of any condemnation and oppression.. I do not want tolerance of my sexuality, I want acceptance as an equal with every other human being on the planet, and not as an abbheration of humanity, and I want and demand it for all women.. and I want and demand it for all men. Only when we can achieve true acceptance, will we be truly free to express ourselves without fear, and this goes far more for men than women. Only then will we see an end to so much of the dishonesty, the disloyalty and the destruction of lives we see because of society's attitude to bisexuality.

[BiMSlutDFW]

First off, please understand that I'm not trying to *blame* anyone... I don't think the concept of "It's______________'s *fault*" applies. It's not a matter of fault, it's simply people being people. To be honest, I don't give a damn whose fault it is, if anyone's. I do not think it's women's problem or women's responsibility. I'm only saying that I think women's views and actions have a disproportionate effect in social situations, and they *could* have a disproportionate effect in this issue as well if they chose to. That could be why men have traditionally excluded women from decision making, so we won't be *completely* powerless.

Women being the bosses in social interaction: Yes, women are still "the weaker sex" etc, etc. Nonetheless, throughout history and across the globe, women can accomplish with a smile what it takes men armies to do. It works in the same way that, as many involved in BDSM have told me, it's actually the *sub* that controls the relationship. The very same cultural background that produced the phrase "*I* wear the pants around here" also produced the phrase "If mom ain't happy, NOBODY's happy." The difference is that the first phrase often produces amusement in those who hear it, while the second tends to produce a desire to get busy makin sure mom is damn well HAPPY.

"Single men are leghumpers": Sure, I know guys who have gone years w/o getting laid.... know any young (35 or younger) single men who have gone years w/o *trying* to get laid? How many? As a percentage of the young single men you know?

"Not all gay men are promiscuous": Hell I know that.... but my knowing that doesn't change the fact that it IS the perception, and will tend to be treated as fact whether true or not. So okay, the guy doesn't get mobbed by offers from every gay male within 100 miles. He didn't make the decision to come out based on what *would* happen, he made it based on what he *thought* would happen. Just because a stereotype is false doesn't make it's effects any less real.

Natural selection vs. gay/bi in both sexes: Obviously a pairing that produces no children cannot pass on any genetic characteristics of any sort. Therefore 'gay' (little or no desire for intercourse with the *opposite* gender) CANNOT become genetically dominant. Bisexuality *can*, at least in theory, but apparently never has. And yet, look where you will in human history, if sexuality is addressed *at all* it seems that bi/gay are never the norm, but are never all that uncommon either. Given that the normal environment for *any* species is a fierce struggle to survive in which no resources can be wasted, it suggests that non-mainstream sexuality has a biological purpose, although I'm not smart enough to guess what it is. Perhaps I have a mistaken impression, but so it appears to me. Make of that what you will, I can't figure that one.
Yes, evolutionary theory is heterocentric. Show me how 2 people of the same gender can produce a child in a nontechnological society and I'll concede that heterocentricism is a flaw in the theory. As it stands, I regard it as accurately descriptive of reality. Fair? No. But reality isn't fair either. All my life I've heard about this mythical beast called "fairness"... but I've never seen its tracks.

"Most women don't like being called a 'delicious little fucktoy' or a 'slut'..." True, at least in public. I can't claim to have been intimate with enough women for a statistical sample, but most of the ones I've known have enjoyed such things, >>>in private, with the person(s) whose fucktoy they *enjoy* being<<<. I suspect that's another peer pressure issue, much like the one that started this thread. However most people, male or female, enjoy being responded to in ways that acknowledge them as physically attractive. In general, up to the point where the response starts to interfere with daily life, the more attractive they feel the better they enjoy it.

Please note: If you are a male who has no real desire to have sex with women, FOR WHATEVER REASON, the pressures described do not apply to you. Given that, I'm hardly surprised if you get different results. Even with those of us still subject to those pressures, Your Mileage May Vary(tm) as always.

Gotta agree with darkeyes on the whole thing about porn.... commonly existing fantasies produce porn to capitalize on them, not the other way around.

Slut

[misterE]

I firmly agree to most peoples point of view, but when you have to work, live and adhere to all of a 75% homophobic culture of straight men. It is harder for the individual to come out honestly saying I,M BI as instantly you are thought of being gay and them getting agressive for whatever reason they have, mainly fear as they have not experienced the feelings.
It,s hard for any person to openly come out and say anything as most things that are not socially acceptable are shuned upon. We can not blame them as they have the blinkers on, we shall just enjoy our lifestyles and hope eventually that one day they will accept us for who we are.

[Doggie_Wood]

Don't blame women. That's just rediculous. Men have far more control on earth and sex. Us women are still fighting to even the score.

Now Sunshine - women have always had equal control of men. It is that special little something you keep between your legs. (yummmmm) :tong:
It's just that some women really know how to, :rolleyes: how shall I say, ...... ahh!, guide the devining influences of their true power. :bigrin:

Love ya girl

:doggie:

[spartca]

Personally I find this discussion fascinating.

I do find that women have a lot of sexual power in my experience, as the original poster illustrates (how many men can stand out on the street and charge random strangers for sex? excellent social proof ROFL)

At the same time, I do believe that women are considered second class in a lot of business life. Not all work environments are like this, mind you. Personally I've worked in a lot of social service fields where I wasn't taken very seriously because of the same sexist views - because massage, teaching children, or counseling is considered "women's work," men are not considered good at these jobs. And the irony is that the women in the field aren't necessarily willing to move over to make room for men either lol.

So my experience is that sexism hurts both men and women. The traditional gender roles stifle us all, in complimentary ways. Traditionally (which is something of a purely ideological distinction) men have more power outside of the home, and women more power inside of it - including sexual power.

After the sexual revolution and the pill, I believe that overall women have more power now because they can have sex without worrying about pregnancy just like men. And they are accepted into the working world more now, while men are not really accepted in the domestic sphere equally. So if I had to compare (which is always a bad idea lol), I'd say at this point in time women are actually getting a better deal, because they have more choices than men in life.

Let me repeat that: at this point in our history in North America, I believe women have more power than men. We still have sexism, and it affects both men and women in a negative way. At this point in time though, sexism seems to be limiting men's roles more than women's.

[littlerayofsunshine]

Now Sunshine - women have always had equal control of men. It is that special little something you keep between your legs. (yummmmm) :tong:
It's just that some women really know how to, :rolleyes: how shall I say, ...... ahh!, guide the devining influences of their true power. :bigrin:

Love ya girl

:doggie:



Now I won't deny DW that some women (me for one :tong: ) have mastered the power of punany, But on the other hand, compared to all the women in the world, we are few and many women are still repressed.


spartca :
I do find that women have a lot of sexual power in my experience, as the original poster illustrates (how many men can stand out on the street and charge random strangers for sex? excellent social proof ROFL) That was just wrong. PMSL! Even with that example, men are the ones who stand the most to gain, monetarily and physically...

Women still struggle with healthcare and lack of proper understanding since science is well advanced for men, they can give a man the use of his penis after naturally it would not function so. They can add girth or length, they can even take it away and replace it with a vagina if it is so desired. Women have no such medical breakthroughs on their twatties.

With the pill women did gain more freedom with their sexuality, but dont mistake freedom with power.

With all the jobs you just listed, reality is, a man would get paid more to do every single one of them, would earn bigger raises and bonuses.

I won't negate your experiences, but I must respectfully disagree.

Love Sunshine.

[DiamondDog]

Women being the bosses in social interaction: Yes, women are still "the weaker sex" etc, etc. Nonetheless, throughout history and across the globe, women can accomplish with a smile what it takes men armies to do. It works in the same way that, as many involved in BDSM have told me, it's actually the *sub* that controls the relationship. The very same cultural background that produced the phrase "*I* wear the pants around here" also produced the phrase "If mom ain't happy, NOBODY's happy." The difference is that the first phrase often produces amusement in those who hear it, while the second tends to produce a desire to get busy makin sure mom is damn well HAPPY.

A sub and a dom should both have power in a relationship. Neither one should be in total control unless it's Master/slave or Sir/boy relationship, and even then with those relationships there are contracts so no one person is in absolute total control.

A good SM relationship is one where the dominant is in control of what he or she wants to do and the sub is in control of what he or she wants to do. The great part is when they're both getting what they want, they've controled their lives to the point where they're both in the position to get it. I don't like people who claim to be good dominants/Tops in SM and then complain about having to do certain things to people, I wind up thinking why are you a domianant/Top then? Your job is to do things!



"Single men are leghumpers": Sure, I know guys who have gone years w/o getting laid.... know any young (35 or younger) single men who have gone years w/o *trying* to get laid? How many? As a percentage of the young single men you know?

Actually I know a lot of men who are under 35 who go for years without sex on purpose and I know some men who have never had sex at all except by themselves.

Why equate it to 35 or younger as being "young"? I also know men of all ages who are single who haven't had sex in years and who don't really go out and seek it out.



"Not all gay men are promiscuous": Hell I know that.... but my knowing that doesn't change the fact that it IS the perception, and will tend to be treated as fact whether true or not. So okay, the guy doesn't get mobbed by offers from every gay male within 100 miles. He didn't make the decision to come out based on what *would* happen, he made it based on what he *thought* would happen. Just because a stereotype is false doesn't make it's effects any less real.

If you don't like the stereotype about gay men being promiscuious why'd you write it?

Coming out has nothing to do with getting more sex or tricking/having one night stands with gay men, so don't debase it to that.


Natural selection vs. gay/bi in both sexes: Obviously a pairing that produces no children cannot pass on any genetic characteristics of any sort. Therefore 'gay' (little or no desire for intercourse with the *opposite* gender) CANNOT become genetically dominant. Bisexuality *can*, at least in theory, but apparently never has. And yet, look where you will in human history, if sexuality is addressed *at all* it seems that bi/gay are never the norm, but are never all that uncommon either. Given that the normal environment for *any* species is a fierce struggle to survive in which no resources can be wasted, it suggests that non-mainstream sexuality has a biological purpose, although I'm not smart enough to guess what it is. Perhaps I have a mistaken impression, but so it appears to me. Make of that what you will, I can't figure that one.
Yes, evolutionary theory is heterocentric. Show me how 2 people of the same gender can produce a child in a nontechnological society and I'll concede that heterocentricism is a flaw in the theory. As it stands, I regard it as accurately descriptive of reality. Fair? No. But reality isn't fair either. All my life I've heard about this mythical beast called "fairness"... but I've never seen its tracks.

What's mainstream sexuality? Or "normal" sexuality? Everyone's different and there's no one set definition of a person's sexuality that can actually be defined as "normal" or "mainstream" as we all have our own personal kinks/fantasies/desires even if people are closeted about them and never tell ANYONE about them.

Do more research on the sexuality of animals besides human beings and you'll find that many animals practise homosexuality and bisexuality and if you do research about gender you'll find out that fungi have thousands of genders.

What about lesbians who want children and take a man's sperm and using it to get pregnant and have kids? That's been going on forever, no technology needed there!

[Bicuriousity]

I think with more and more women the issue of monogamy is the biggest problem they have with a bi guy. They are worried a guy will cheat on them anyways, and with a bi guy they have to worry about him and guys.

I have met a few girls that are cool with bi guys. But with some it takes them some warming up to get to that point.

Reading this thread just made me think of a girl at work. I recently found out she was bi and for the most part noone cares. One girl kind of joked about it because "she doesn't swing that way" as she puts it and she felt the bi girl has flirted with her a bit, but even so there are really no bad feelings.

I can't even imagine how bad it'd be if they knew I was bi at work though.
But thats the double standard bi guys have to deal with.

And gay guys don't knock down our doors. I know alot of gay guys that don't want to be with bi guys also.

[miamiuu]

For me it opens up a can of worms that leads to me to further have to explain what i like exactly. Cus i consider myself bi, but i dont necessarily go out to gay clubs looking to have sex with guys, or even look at guys. Like ive seen bi guys stare at other guys asses and im just not like that lol. Usually takes more for me to get into a guy than a nice ass ad pretty face. So i dont usually tell complete strangers. If im gonna venture on the same sex side of things and deal with the bs that comes with it the guy i meet i want to be worth it.

[darkeyes]

Ray is right. There has been a movement to greater equality over the last century or so, and for many women things are a lot better than they once were. There reality is however that the strings of power remain substantially in the hands of men. This is highlighted by the fact that men stilll are overwhelmingly the majority in most profession, control the boardrooms of the vast majorty of companies, and hold the most senior management positons. Politically, the levels of political power remain in the hands, needless to say of men. Sexually, as has been amply demonstrated in this thread, our attitudes and actions are determined in the main by men.

We dont want power to control our world as a sex, merely to be able to play our part on an equal footing with men. There has been much progress in achieving this, but never confuse progress with equality, and certainly not with achieving dominance over our menfolk.

[spartca]

Sunshine, I also feel you have the right to your opinion!

However I wonder if you've ever considered how sexism affects men in a negative way? Is this even possible in your worldview? Or are you so certain that men have the upper hand that you're unwilling to hear my experiences as a not-so-privileged man? I wonder how you might be reproducing your own oppression in this way?

I believe that sexism affects both men and women negatively. It's not really a contest. I believe that more sexual equality would benefit us all. Raising women up doesn't mean putting men down. Let's work together to help lift each other out of the oppression of sexism.


Even with that example, men are the ones who stand the most to gain, monetarily and physically...

I disagree. Women sex workers that I've talked with say that they often pity their men clients. They report a feeling of power. They get to pick and choose their clients, how much they get paid, when they work, etc. They even enjoy the sex. I'd say women sex workers had a lot of power. I'd love to have the power to get paid for having sex with women at my discretion. I'm not sure I would choose to be a sex worker, but I don't have so many choices in this area because I'm a man. Again, it's a choice that women have more than men, hence my contention that women have more power in this area.


Women still struggle with healthcare and lack of proper understanding since science is well advanced for men, they can give a man the use of his penis after naturally it would not function so. They can add girth or length, they can even take it away and replace it with a vagina if it is so desired. Women have no such medical breakthroughs on their twatties.

In my experience women in this country have far more access to healthcare than I do as a man. And free healthcare at that. Where do poor men go for reproductive healthcare? They don't. And that's a problem. In this case women actually have more power because they have more access to healthcare. That's the fact.

As far as penile enhancement goes, a lot of this is hype. For example, surgery to add length cuts the suspensory ligament attached to the penis, which makes the penis appear longer, but then it becomes difficult to actually use.

Anyways why all the hype? Why would so many men want a bigger penis? This is an example of how body image issues are not the sole domain of women. So many men are so obsessed with their penis that they are willing to do almost anything to get a bigger one. Even make their penises fairly useless in order to make them appear bigger. That's pretty oppressive, wouldn't you agree?

Also, it is men who are circumcised in this country, not women. Male circumcision deprives men of the most sensitive areas of their penis and full pleasure during sex. There is nothing a man can do to fully restore sexual function. That's oppressive, wouldn't you agree?

Women will never have to worry about getting it up. Now that's power! A little lube will never help a man have sex if he can't function. Viagra was a pharmaceutical accident originally intended to be a heart medication. It has been rebranded for women in a pink pill and reportedly works for many women in engorging the pelvic area with blood, which helps in lubrication, engorging the clit and labia.

Lots of women are having vagina surgeries these days to help them adjust what they have for both cosmetic and health reasons. Doctors routinely add a few stiches after pregnancy to tighten up the vaginal opening, at the woman's discretion. Often a woman with an imperforate hymen requires a fairly routine surgery so that she can have sex. So the vagina gets its fair share of medical and scientific attention as far as I can tell.

And contrary to what you say, there are lots of surgeons working on perfecting F-to-M genital surgery as we speak. Thailand and Switzerland are reportedly leading the pack on this medical technology.


With the pill women did gain more freedom with their sexuality, but dont mistake freedom with power.

Um freedom is power. Can you explain why you don't think so?


With all the jobs you just listed, reality is, a man would get paid more to do every single one of them, would earn bigger raises and bonuses.

No offense, but have you worked in any of these fields? I have. There is preferential hiring in all of them - women are preferred! Women massage therapists make more money than men - there are actually different scales for men and women at a lot of massage therapy clinics. Again, I have actually worked in this field so I know first-hand. Men are looked over for a lot of jobs in education, healthcare, and counseling - because women are considered "naturally" suited to these jobs. That's sexism, wouldn't you agree?

It is true that there is structural sexism at work: traditionally "female" professions do indeed pay less than traditionally "male" professions. But what if you are a man like me who wants to work in "female" professions? You are considered suspect, not given more pay lol. You're considered "less of a man."

Ironically, I'm a man who is actively working to change sexist stereotypes, but often told by feminist women like you that I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm wondering if there's room in your worldview for true gender equality?


I won't negate your experiences, but I must respectfully disagree.

Sunshine, you can't negate my experiences. They're mine :)

[Domino]

Right where we are as far as humanity tolerance goes, I would say that any closeted bi/gay man was doing so as a safety mechanism. It is not as cool to be bi/gay when you are a man as it is when you are a woman, and it just goes to show how we as a society are no where near the advanced race we proclaim.

We might be advanced as far as technology goes but a truly advanced race would recognise love and sexual attraction as it is, the universe has no rules, we created them

[Solomon]

all i know is that most people don't want to know about me....
most people just want to talk about themselves, and if they do ask about me or my opinion, it's usually out of politeness or incidental to their opinions on whatever they're talking about lol

of course i'm not immune to wanting to be heard either..... just can't seem to get it out of my system sometimes, regardless how i want to lol

i just basically don't go around offering my sexual orientation to people.... and i've never been asked either... 'cept by those that might want to actually know more about me, and that's a rare person indeed......

[littlerayofsunshine]

Sunshine, I also feel you have the right to your opinion!

However I wonder if you've ever considered how sexism affects men in a negative way? Is this even possible in your worldview? Or are you so certain that men have the upper hand that you're unwilling to hear my experiences as a not-so-privileged man? I wonder how you might be reproducing your own oppression in this way?

I believe that sexism affects both men and women negatively. It's not really a contest. I believe that more sexual equality would benefit us all. Raising women up doesn't mean putting men down. Let's work together to help lift each other out of the oppression of sexism.



I disagree. Women sex workers that I've talked with say that they often pity their men clients. They report a feeling of power. They get to pick and choose their clients, how much they get paid, when they work, etc. They even enjoy the sex. I'd say women sex workers had a lot of power. I'd love to have the power to get paid for having sex with women at my discretion. I'm not sure I would choose to be a sex worker, but I don't have so many choices in this area because I'm a man. Again, it's a choice that women have more than men, hence my contention that women have more power in this area.


You clearly stated previously "street" sex workers, which is typically a lower standard and more dangerous line of sex work. Less protection, more deadly, usually controlled at the hands of a pimp, who hands out quotas and beatings if expectations are met. Not like an escort service where the clients are more selected and a woman has more say in whom she is with. I know first hand, from my experience, a form of sex work which I won't state here, and stand firm in my opinion as I have previously stated.


In my experience women in this country have far more access to healthcare than I do as a man. And free healthcare at that. Where do poor men go for reproductive healthcare? They don't. And that's a problem. In this case women actually have more power because they have more access to healthcare. That's the fact.


Free healthcare? Men have free healthcare too. There are such things as free prostate exams. And pretty much anyone knows that you can get low cost to free exams from a local health clinic or health dept. But most choose not to go that route due to the stigma of embarrassment or shame.

As far as penile enhancement goes, a lot of this is hype. For example, surgery to add length cuts the suspensory ligament attached to the penis, which makes the penis appear longer, but then it becomes difficult to actually use.

Anyways why all the hype? Why would so many men want a bigger penis? This is an example of how body image issues are not the sole domain of women. So many men are so obsessed with their penis that they are willing to do almost anything to get a bigger one. Even make their penises fairly useless in order to make them appear bigger. That's pretty oppressive, wouldn't you agree?

I can't have a full answer to this one, basically because I don't have a cock, nor a male brain and have never spent any amount of time playing male sports or being in a locker room. Most penile insecurities start in the teens and carry on through one's life.

Also, it is men who are circumcised in this country, not women. Male circumcision deprives men of the most sensitive areas of their penis and full pleasure during sex. There is nothing a man can do to fully restore sexual function. That's oppressive, wouldn't you agree?

[COLOR=Green]Women may not be circumcised in this country, but it does indeed happen in the world and usually by force and not as an infant, its done to older girls. Granted some men may not wish to have been circumcised, but I also have read, known and been with men, that were grateful for their's and found uncut rather appalling. But outside of that.. There are procedures to regain forskin. Granted it most likely does return to its pre-curc state. Circumcisions were more of a religious base and not a male/female dynamic issue.

Women will never have to worry about getting it up. Now that's power! A little lube will never help a man have sex if he can't function. Viagra was a pharmaceutical accident originally intended to be a heart medication. It has been rebranded for women in a pink pill and reportedly works for many women in engorging the pelvic area with blood, which helps in lubrication, engorging the clit and labia.

Viagra may have been an accident, but yet it still exists, and even if it is marketed to women, that is based on the assumption that male and female sexual responses are the same. Which they are not. Science can't even agree if the G-Spot actually exists. It's more normal for a woman to never experience orgasm, than it is for one who can. Yet those who can't typically are made to feel less of a woman. Funny isn't it?

Lots of women are having vagina surgeries these days to help them adjust what they have for both cosmetic and health reasons. Doctors routinely add a few stiches after pregnancy to tighten up the vaginal opening, at the woman's discretion. Often a woman with an imperforate hymen requires a fairly routine surgery so that she can have sex. So the vagina gets its fair share of medical and scientific attention as far as I can tell.

The bold statement is crap. They don't even recommend epesiotomies anymore, and the original desire for them was a male based idea, Men controlled the science.. Most often than not, a male doctor will advocate to cut and stitch where a female medical professional won't. Now days thanks to more openess to midwifery and an increase in female OB/GYN the epesiotomy will become an last resort technique. Added stitches was a male based joke, under the assumption that a vagina is traumatized and less desireable after giving birth. I have given birth with and without cuts and stitches and have had no ill effects, or lack of ability to give and feel pleasure with my vagina. Did you know, just a couple centuries ago, that mental illness in women was presumed to be caused by lack of orgasms? They actually would get a group of doctors around, have the woman strapped or held down, and they would, in the most humiliating manner, masturbate her to make her sane.

And contrary to what you say, there are lots of surgeons working on perfecting F-to-M genital surgery as we speak. Thailand and Switzerland are reportedly leading the pack on this medical technology.

Working on it now? F-M transgendered has existed as long as M-F transgendered. There again as of this day, men dominate that area too..Anyway, Transgendered have their own struggles you and I are not qualified to argue.



Um freedom is power. Can you explain why you don't think so?

Oh hun, you must touch base with more minorities. I have been on many rungs in the ladder of life from the very bottom, to more than halfway up. And through this journey have lived close knit with many minorities, they are free people, but their struggles and stereotypes are much harsher than yours or mine will ever be.



No offense, but have you worked in any of these fields? I have. There is preferential hiring in all of them - women are preferred! Women massage therapists make more money than men there are actually different scales for men and women at a lot of massage therapy clinics. Again, I have actually worked in this field so I know first-hand. Men are looked over for a lot of jobs in education, healthcare, and counseling - because women are considered "naturally" suited to these jobs. That's sexism, wouldn't you agree?

I didn't state that men couldn't/shouldn't do those jobs, I stated that even with the Jobs you listed as female dominant, Men who perform those duties will have better pay and benefits. And statistics show that women are more natural nurturers, and men are less, and men are more likely to abuse power, men are more likely to offend sexually, So I would assume that its less likely sexism and more likely quality controll. Check almost any D.O.C. listing and compare women to men. Cliche's exist not based on fantasies, but of what happens more often than not, and One bad able can spoil the bunch. It's Easier to fall than get back up, and you must get back on the dead horse that got beaten, cause bet your bottom dollar the sun will come out tomorrow.

It is true that there is structural sexism at work: traditionally "female" professions do indeed pay less than traditionally "male" professions. But what if you are a man like me who wants to work in "female" professions? You are considered suspect, not given more pay lol. You're considered "less of a man."

That's a male statement, and a male stigma. If you really think about it, Women have struggled very much so to make things equal. Thats why men wash dishes and change diapers, where for centuries they wouldn't have even set foot in the kitchen or nursery. Women and minorities have been breaking stereotypes for years and maybe if you were to study that more you would be able to see how its done.


Ironically, I'm a man who is actively working to change sexist stereotypes, but often told by feminist women like you that I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm wondering if there's room in your worldview for true gender equality?

Me a feminist...lol... You really don't know me well enough to offer that label. To me that's a form of childish name calling I was mature enough not to resort to. A female opinion does not maketh the Feminist. Despite the fact that i disagreed with you, I would fight along side you for injustice. I hate injustice and prejudice, period, Not just those based on my sex, there are actually even more important struggles to spend energy on.

Your working to change stereotypes? I laugh. Your refusal to look outside your own experiences, prevents you from seeing beyond your own plight. You accused me of being feminist. Isn't that in itself you stereotyping me as such just because I am female and opinionated?

Fact is, Women have been more oppressed then men, only in the last century has the links in the chain of relationship dynamics been altered. Not so long ago women were property, were allowed to be beaten without punishement, not allowed to vote, ect, ect. These are things I understand. Now if looking at whole picture, you will see that the scales are tipping, and even though at the moment that may mean women do have some power over certian areas and whatnot, Wouldn't the tipping be a form of balancing and equaling out? There is a ripple effect going on and the waters may not calm in our lifetimes, but Time is on the side of humanity.And the problems of the society and the world are much bigger than you or I. Our individual situations are a piss drop in the bucket, and what really matters and where most of the problems lie is in what happens more often than not.



Sunshine, you can't negate my experiences. They're mine :)

See? Even with all our differences of opinions. We can agree...That is something wonderful. I appreciate you, your views, your passion. More people should have such passion and openess to express themselves.

Now Respectfully sir, Lets shake hands, agree to disagree and leave this thread to it's intended purpose. I won't mind however if you would wish to continue this through private messages.

[darkeyes]

Spartca?? Why are you so threatened by us??? Thats what is sounds like. Is it that at last we have chipped away at your ancient superiority to such a degree that you are scared of losing your male privileges? Becausewith every word you speak thats how it comes accross.

There are many areas where we have made huge strides in the last half century, but come on sweetie, we still do not have the reigns of power. Sure there are some professions where women do better than men, but these are ssentially the minorty, the real power such as remains overwhelmingly in hands of men. And will do so for some time to come. But throughout the western world average earnngs for women are considerably less than for men and career advancement more limited, despite equal pay and sex discrimination laws. Improvements are made every year to our lot and so they should be, but resistance to giving us equality with men is as stubborn as ever and it is a hard job chipping away at things!

Your attitude is can be equated to that of the Nazis in the 1920's and 30' swith their jewish conspiracy theories, whereby jewish bankers and politicians the world over held the real reins of power, and the elites of all nations were in thrall to them. I am not saying you are a Nazi by any means, any more than everyone who voted fror them was. But you are misinformed, and your arguments are borne out of a fear which is misplaced, just as millions of germans voted in 1933 out of fear.

A fair deal for all is all we ask for, and to be allowed our right to contribute and be rewarded not because of our sex, but because of our abilities. Dont fear it, embrace it, just as I embrace any attempt world wide to eliminate any discrimination and inequalities against any human being irrespective of her or his sex, creed, sexual orientation or religion.

The Scots have a saying which is that we are all Jock Tamsons bairns.. it can mean and is used to say that we are all children of the Lord. But its origin and true meaning is that we are all equal and should have the same rights and privileges whoever we are (and whatever our sex) - in my mind a far more laudible meaning.

[BiMSlutDFW]

A sub and a dom should both have power in a relationship. Neither one should be in total control unless it's Master/slave or Sir/boy relationship, and even then with those relationships there are contracts so no one person is in absolute total control.

Should? Okay, I'll buy *should*. I can't claim to know, BDSM doesn't call to me. But from what I'm told by those friends of mine who *are* into BDSM, "should" tends to be a long way from "is".


Actually I know a lot of men who are under 35 who go for years without sex on purpose and I know some men who have never had sex at all except by themselves.

Fine and good. How big a percentage of men you've known? Evolution works on averages, what is most common tends to become moreso, what is uncommon tends to become less so. Are you really gonna tell me that, *on average*, young single men do NOT spend a fair amount of their time trying to get laid?


Why equate it to 35 or younger as being "young"? I also know men of all ages who are single who haven't had sex in years and who don't really go out and seek it out.

Because once you stop having children, you are no longer part of the evolutionary process, that's why. 35 was an age chosen arbitrarily by me as representative of an age where most people have had all the children they are going to have, and I believe that has been true long enough for it to be at least *possible* for genetic and evolutionary factors to have started working.


If you don't like the stereotype about gay men being promiscuious why'd you write it?

Because in the real world that perception EXISTS, that's why. It's existence is completely independent of what you or I think about it, and real world people make real world decisions based on what they PERCEIVE to be true, regardless of whether or not it actually is.

Why did I write it? Because acting as if something you don't like *doesn't exist*, when it DOES have a bearing on what you're doing, is counterproductive, that's why.


What's mainstream sexuality? Or "normal" sexuality? Everyone's different and there's no one set definition of a person's sexuality that can actually be defined as "normal" or "mainstream" as we all have our own personal kinks/fantasies/desires even if people are closeted about them and never tell ANYONE about them.

Do more research on the sexuality of animals besides human beings and you'll find that many animals practise homosexuality and bisexuality and if you do research about gender you'll find out that fungi have thousands of genders.

Okay.... and the thousands of genders of fungi affect human evolution and psychology *how* exactly? Human gender choices that >>>in the vast majority of cases<<< produce no children affect the genetic predisposition of future generations *how* exactly?

That's how I'm defining "mainstream". "Mainstream" = Producing children commonly enough to have a noticeable impact on the course of human evolution.


What about lesbians who want children and take a man's sperm and using it to get pregnant and have kids? That's been going on forever, no technology needed there!

What about em? Are you seriously gonna try to tell me that's so common as to have any impact at all on human evolution? That evolutionary theory is flawed because it doesn't assume that will be an easily measurable fraction of any given generation of humans?

Please understand, I'm not saying the real world is RIGHT, that it's the way things SHOULD be. I'm saying that the real world is REAL, if you're gonna solve a problem in the real world you have to take real world factors into account.

Slut

[flexuality]

BiMSlutDFW,

Your whole argument seems to be based on the acceptance of the theory of evolution and natural selection....which is what you stated at the beginning of your original post.

Darwin himself stated that even if one small part of his theory could be proven to be not possible, then even he wouldn't buy into the theory of evolution. That has been done on several levels.

In my opinion this approach you have outlined holds no water.

[DiamondDog]

Fine and good. How big a percentage of men you've known? Evolution works on averages, what is most common tends to become moreso, what is uncommon tends to become less so. Are you really gonna tell me that, *on average*, young single men do NOT spend a fair amount of their time trying to get laid?

I don't take polls of young men or try to see which ones don't want sex and why they don't want sex. I think that age has nothing really to do with it, as it's more in their personality, core values, or part of their virtues not to seek out sex and some men I know want to wait until marriage for sex.

Also, a lot of younger people have grown up knowing about HIV and other STDs so it's not like they're acting like it's the time before HIV was discovered about and became a pandemic, and having lots of unprotected sex with partners who are random strangers or doing this yearly.

Sure, some people do have unprotected sex with random strangers that number the hundreds per year, but I personally think that they have a death wish, are plaguers (also commonly called bug chasers), and have no care for themselves or other people.



Because once you stop having children, you are no longer part of the evolutionary process, that's why. 35 was an age chosen arbitrarily by me as representative of an age where most people have had all the children they are going to have, and I believe that has been true long enough for it to be at least *possible* for genetic and evolutionary factors to have started working.

But people do have kids after 35. My parents did this and it's getting more common.

I see a living person as being part of the human evolutionary and biological process even if they don't have kids, since they're still living on this planet and they're alive as a human being. It's not like the meaning of life for everyone, is to "be fruitful and multiply".

What if a gay man or a heterosexual or bisexual person who isn't married and doesn't have kids developed a cure for HIV or cancer, or found ways to modify/transform the human body with the use of biotechology? That would certainly be changing the evolution of the human race without reproduction.


Because in the real world that perception EXISTS, that's why. It's existence is completely independent of what you or I think about it, and real world people make real world decisions based on what they PERCEIVE to be true, regardless of whether or not it actually is.

Why did I write it? Because acting as if something you don't like *doesn't exist*, when it DOES have a bearing on what you're doing, is counterproductive, that's why.

Sure that perception exists about gay men but it's not the rule. It's like saying that ALL people who are heterosexual want to reproduce and have kids. Or like saying that ALL bisexuals are cheating people, confused about their sexuality who aren't capable of having a closed/exclusive/mongamous relationship with one person of a single gender.

Anyway, I'd like to think that some people in our society aren't that clueless and don't think that someone's sexual orientation, even if it is homosexuality has anything to do with how promiscuious that person is or that how group of people as a whole are when it comes to promiscuity.


Okay.... and the thousands of genders of fungi affect human evolution and psychology *how* exactly? Human gender choices that >>>in the vast majority of cases<<< produce no children affect the genetic predisposition of future generations *how* exactly?

That's how I'm defining "mainstream". "Mainstream" = Producing children commonly enough to have a noticeable impact on the course of human evolution.

My point about fungi and other organisms/animals is that we know a lot about the gender/sexuality of other organisms but not a lot about human sexuality.


What about em? Are you seriously gonna try to tell me that's so common as to have any impact at all on human evolution? That evolutionary theory is flawed because it doesn't assume that will be an easily measurable fraction of any given generation of humans?

The lesbian thing has more to do with the concept of two people of the same gender having children through non-technological means.

[Solomon]

maybe the problem isn't equality... maybe it's more a matter of respecting our differences?

good god i wish i could keep my yap shut :(

[spartca]

maybe the problem isn't equality... maybe it's more a matter of respecting our differences?

Hear, hear!


good god i wish i could keep my yap shut :(

That's just about what I've decided to do myself :)

[darkeyes]

Difference being respected sure Sol..but not at the cost of misleading and misinformed understandings of reality...

[spartca]

...potta pish...

Is there a translator available?

[darkeyes]

Is there a translator available?
shudda been lotta pish..it means Lotta pish. Piss if ya prefer..in short bollox, cobblers.. tripe, trash, doodah, poop, crap, garbage, rubbish..need me go on? Ne way..deleted it ne way..so don matta..but ya knows next time!! tee hee

[scubaman]

Very interesting thread! Myself, I am out to my wife. I asked her the other day about the thread regarding how women feel about bi males. The response was, for me it seemed like when really horney I desire male to male sex that I would not live the true bi lifestyle. Littlerayofsunshine stated "I will acknowlege people have their own circumstances with revelations and society and I do not punish those for their own life choices. But lets face it, Some guys are holding the guys back from coming out. For alot of men, its just for the kink, the underground taboo sex culture. Not a lifestyle.."

My question is - what is the bi lifestyle? A single male could in theory from what I understand as the bi lifestyle give equal attention to either gender both emotionally and sexually. A married male would find that more difficult. If giving equal emotional and sexual attention to both genders would spill over to a poly relationship. This subject is what is unclear in my mind and I have found myself asking the question if, God forbide, somehthing happened in my marriage, could I have a total relationship with another male? If yes, would that classify me as being gay, or if I still desire women would that classify me as bi?

Very perplexing and seems as though a "bi" person lives in the gray vice black and white. Maybe I am way off base with this response, however, this is what I am struggling with now. :2cents:

[BiMSlutDFW]

Let's see... I tried to post something informative and thoughtful, hoping for an informative and thoughtful response. Its basis was that all human behavior is an extrapolation of survival instinct, and examined how various things *could* be consequences of that.

Have I gotten thoughtful responses back? Yes, I have. One or two.

The majority of what I have gotten back are assumptions made about me that have no basis in what I wrote, indeed often fly in the face of what I have written.

Some feel like I'm blaming people, in spite of the fact that I stated I was not in the original post.

Some apparently *still* feel like I'm trying to prop up an untrue stereotype regardless of the fact that I have repeatedly said no, I am only treating it as something that *does* exist and has to be dealt with as such.

Some pick out isolated exceptions and act as if they can find one person not subject to a given set of societal pressures, those pressures must not really exist. I'm not going to bother even dignifying that one by answering it.

Others discount the entire concept because the theory I took my assumptions from is supposedly flawed. However, they fail to say *how* it is flawed, and completely ignore whether the flaws apply to the assumptions I used and defined at the beginning of the thread.

I hate to say this, but those willing to actually debate the subject are in the minority. The majority of what I have gotten back is knee jerk reactions and bits of people's political agendas.

When I was a teenager, I lived in the largest all-white town in the US. It occurs to me that if I wanted to be surrounded by bigots, I'd still be there.

Feel free to continue this among yourselves of course, but don't expect any further response from me. I didn't sign up with bisexual.com of all places so I could meet more sexual bigots to put up with. You won't be seeing me again.

Slut

[spartca]

Here let me try again:

Stereotypical mainstream gender roles cast women as sexual objects or products, and men as sexual subjects or consumers.

Bisexuality in women is part of the mainstream straight porn script. Why? Because it means that a man could possess more than one woman at a time - it makes women even more "womanly" from this stereotypical sex role perspective - even more of a sex object.

Bisexuality in men is taboo. Why? Because in effect one or both of the men would have to become emasculated in the process of two men having sex - one or the other of them is assumed to take the "female" role and is therefore less "manly."

What do you all think of this idea?

[DiamondDog]

Bisexuality in men is taboo. Why? Because in effect one or both of the men would have to become emasculated in the process of two men having sex - one or the other of them is assumed to take the "female" role and is therefore less "manly."

What do you all think of this idea?

What's the "female" role?

Not everyone that's gay or bi does penetrative anal sex, or is even into giving oral sex. I don't see either of these things as being a "female" role anyway, since it's two men having sex and not a man and a woman.

I do think the reason that some guys appear to think that getting fucked is 'emasculating' is because they suffer from an underlying misogyny that sees penetration as something done to a female by a male, and lots of gay/bi men are ridiculously misogynistic about this idea.

I wouldn't say that because gay/bi men have issues about roles in anal sex that it makes bisexuality taboo.

I think that what makes it taboo among men is that in our society (north america) women are expected and encouraged to explore sex with other women.

Men aren't and if they do anything like this they're branded as gay; by other people and a lot seem to think this about themselves.

Most people see men's sexuality as being black and white or gay/heterosexual. They don't see women's sexuality this way.

I know it's not like this in Central and South America and lots of other Latin american countries but I've heard that in those countries the men seem to think that if they are a top/the one that fucks during anal sex how it's really "heterosexual" sex but it's kind of like that here in the US too.

Many heterosexual men here in the US don't consider a blowjob, let alone only being on the receiving end of one from a guy, as being real "sex". They probably figure they don't need to check the "bisexual" box simply because all of the oral sex they have gotten from other men.

There's lots of pressure behind bisexual men to hide behind both the "gay" and "heterosexual" labels, and that's where things can get confusing.

I personally don't hide behind these labels but I know some who do.

[TaylorMade]

I would think because women see male bisexuality as less desirable. . .giving him more options for straying, with more severe consequences. . .and due to the perception of any sort of male/male sexual contact as lesss manly. Many women feel like they can't compete with that, when in reality,with a bisexual man, you really don't have to.

Sometimes, I think we over analyze this to death.

*Taylor*

[mindfinding]

Sometimes, I think we over analyze this to death.

*Taylor*

Yep. Agreed. And Great thread I might add! :)

But now I want my 2 cents.

I'm not screaming openly about curiosities because I just don't want the hassle. My life is complicated enough let alone to deal with more people in my life who feel they need to tell me how to live, think and feel. I'm married and I really love the clan I have under my roof. Testing waters, spilling the beans, and all that might ruin it. So I am very content with how I am conducting myself.

Your question does hold a great many curiosity to it though. I hope you get a stable answer.

Cheers

[lookn0ver]

MAN ! y~all are sounding pretty intense over this.


i have been offered gay sex.
i have been offered straight sex .
i have had people of my same sex want sex with my partner and myself ,which i did not let happen because they did not trip my trigger at the moment and i did not let the deal go down, because all the act would have been just impersonal to me and i was just not feeling it.
i have had sex with cheating partners.
i have been the cheating partner.
i have been offered cheating gay sex ,which is to say one at a time both male partners in a solid relationship together asked for sex with me and or asked me be their new lover... which i was not interested in as at the time i believed that path was not my direction.
i have fun trying to get stone lezbian lovers have sex with me by being overly sweet and charming( i think thats entertainment!)
i have had sex with competing sisters on a few occasions , but not sex with both at the same time... so i have no idea how such things play out.
i have had all these types of sex and still i think myself as a bi~sexual.
i am not openly anything !, even though i have had straight and gay sex and i have made no secret i have done such things.but for me to walk up out of the closet is not a good thing for me... i happen to like this place i sit right now. if things are meant to be ,i believe things will be ...and not until everything is perfect. if i were to be openly bi i think the quality of what relationships i do have and enjoy would suffer and be further and fewer between... maybe there will be a truly ''bi'' encounter with me in mind someday soon, but i'm not going to lose any real sleep over getting it.

as i see it...
i can have sex with both sexes if ever i want.
having sex with both sexes all in the same sex act right now is something else.
so what level of bi does that make me?
is there such a term as str8/gay?
and would i really want to come out with that sign swinging round my macho neck?

this thread needs to settle back some you know!!
;)

[jaglvr]

This has been an interesting thread. I think we get a little bogged down lawyering semantics to death. We all know the stereotypes and we all know what people mean when they refer to female sex roles, perceived promiscuity, etc... Though they are not necessarily the most accurate or appropriate way of putting things why are you arguing with it? You know what the person meant.
Anyway, without belaboring what's already posted, I have always been bi. My wife knew before she was even my girlfriend and yet it still caused her to harbor suspicion all the time. I can't be openly bi at work because I am in the Navy. My friends all know though. This gets around regardless of "don't ask, don't tell" and I am treated differently now than when I was new here and no one knew. Usually I run into "are you gay?" and it never occurs to anyone that I might be bi despite having a wife and three kids. I'm either a closet homo or straight and playing the "gay game". Anyone in the armed forces should know what I'm talking about when I say the "gay game". I have been told I am the most nonthreatening man in the department, and on the flip side, that they are scared of me because of my seemingly dangerous sexuality, both from women. I have been told "if I were gay, I would fuck the shit out of you!". I guess that's a compliment. The point of all this being, so few men are openly bi because it wouldn't matter if you were. No one understands what the hell that means and it only makes your life more complicated. You are dogged with all those stereotypes that everyone has been arguing about here from gay and straight comminunities when it is so easy to just let your more hetero side be dominant and settle for the occasional trip to the other side. No, this isn't true for everyone. But that wasn't the question was it? We all generally take the path of least resistance. The closet is way less resistant than that big open, judging world.

[12voltman59]

I am on pretty firm ground when I comment on things political since I have had an interest in that as long as I can recall--on this topic--I am on thin ice.

All I have are my limited experiences on this--but it seems to me--that what I am looking for in sex with other guys is different than whay I seek with women and I am not just simply speaking of the sexual aspects, but everything else that is involved in such relationships...

And just as each relationship I have with each female is different---the relationships I have had with other guys has each had its own unique elements to it as well....

As a man and as far as coming out is concerned---it is a problematic thing to do that since most people who don't like anything gay--(man on man) sex---it can just bring you a whole bunch of problems that don't need to be there-- it seems to me.

I wish there were no kind of sexual labels because while I enoy sex pretty much--as Diamond Dog said in one post--as a single guy--I have gone for years without sex of any kind, save jerking off, with anyone else--I have so many other interests like my art and writing that my energies can be pretty much directed that way--and to the world--I don't want my sexual orientation or however one defines it to define me---

I want to be identified not as a bisexual artist or writer or decorative painter--or a hetero one for that matter--I just want to be known as a writer, abstract artist and decorative artist because its my creative works that matter to me--not who I sleep with-

If God came down to earth and said to me--"I give you a choice--you can have your art or you can have your sex--not both"
I'd give up sex in a nanosecond--and just go produce art and writings

As far as whether men or women have it worse in terms of what is expected of them and whether they get a fair shake or not--both sides have made good cases that they get screwed (and I don't mean that in a sexual way in this case) pretty welll--

It is just a fact of life--we all have crosses and burdens to bear--and it does seem that we human beings love to put restrictions on the ways that our fellow human beings live their lives---

No one has a lock on that and most folks, male/female; black/white/asians...; gays/straights/bis..., etc, etc etc-have experienced blocks to them based on whatever---

All of these things are universal---to me the point is to try to knock down all the barriers that keep people from living their lives as they wish save things that are "mala in se" like being a murderer, rapist, child molester--etc that are reprehensible and cannot be allowed-but for things like what religion one does or does not practice--or what is the gender of those we love either sexually or emotionally---we should allow people (adults) to live life as they please--

As far as "coming out" is concerned--I am still so new to this and my experiences rather limited and I don't know who much or for how long I might continue to do things with other guys---more out of practical reasons--I don't feel any need to come out now or maybe never--its that I am going to hide it--if someone comes and asks me I will tell them but I am not volunteering the info--this is how I feel at least at this time and that might change in the future---maybe I will come out but that is something for me to decide when or if and under what conditions--it is one of the things that does piss me off on here is that some people have this idea that you have to come out if you are even thinking about the fact you might be bisexual or not---and once you do something--then you certainly must come out...

Well---that might be fine for them but that may not be good for you or me...its no one else's place to say what is the best thing for another person--

When I do start a relationship with a lady in the future--I will sit down and tell her about this part of myself --just like I will have other things about myself I will disclose--beyond telling such a person--I have no reason to tell the world--I see no point in it really--

At some point though--- I do think I will write a book of my experiences in this area---and that will be my way of "coming out" as it were ---but I am not there yet---and of course--what I say about this subject---not everyone will agree with because all I can do is to tell my story, my perspective and my experiences.

But then--once I do that--I won't just be identified as a writer or artist anymore--but a bisexual one!!!! From that point on--all creative work of any kind will get judged and evaluated with that little label attached to it for good or ill.....

[wanderingrichard]

in all this intellectual proselytizing, did any of you even notice 'Slut, has left the membership?? why? take a good look at your attitudes and what the total sum of what was written has produced...

and before anyone rudely reminds me, i sometimes have some of the same issues you do coping with a disagreeing opinion...

[teamnoir]

in all this intellectual proselytizing, did any of you even notice 'Slut, has left the membership?? why? take a good look at your attitudes and what the total sum of what was written has produced...

and before anyone rudely reminds me, i sometimes have some of the same issues you do coping with a disagreeing opinion...

That's his choice to leave and react flippantly the way he did.

It's not like anyone who posted on this thread told him "You're absolutely 100% wrong in your opinions and a damn fool. Now get the fuck off of this site and never come back!"

I personally find the screw you guys I'm going home tactic that people use when someone disagrees with their viewpoints or opinions, to be rather tiresome and a non-sequitor.

If he has this many issues with strangers disagreeing with his opinions I'd hate to see him in real life when someone tells him that he's wrong or disagrees with a viewpoint of his.

Getting back to topic I'm like Voltman in that I don't tell anyone about my sexuality. Since I'm a published writer I don't write about it since it's just an aspect of myself, it's really cliched and self centered, and it's pointless.

[scubaman]

This thread, like many others on this site, varied from the orginial post which I feel is sparked from what someone wrote in a reply. When this happens, I don't think it is intended as deisrespectful to the person who started the thread, sometimes it just happens especially on a topic such as this.

[bibliss]

Mid-forties truly bisexual man here. I've been conscious of my bisexual desires since my mid 20s, but didn't really act upon them until my mid 30s. So it took me roughly a decade to really come to terms with being bi.

Also, I've long been pretty opposite-gender oriented, meaning I relate mostly to women in terms of romantic dating, etc., while sexually being very inclusive and embracing and interested in both men and women. This has translated into a life experience of being somewhat more "straight" in my outward expressions, while at the same time very aware of my bi leanings on an inner level.

I am pretty sure that if society where more allowing and accommodating of bisexuality in men, my bi interests would be far more obvious on an outward level. I imagine what my life could be with a small circle of bisexual friends, both men and women, where we are all out to each other and very demonstrative of our sexuality.

Also, my needs for intimacy are pretty strong, and so far, I have found it more challenging with other men to cultivate intimacy, although I find, happily, that this is changing as I become more experienced with other men and accepting of who I am.

Also, I have found that having a really bi-accepting woman in my life has been enormously important for me long my path to accepting my own bisexuality. Somehow, having a woman who is really supportive and embracing and even encouraging of bi men is really helpful. And I wonder how many men truly have this (sadly, not that many). I don't mean to suggest that women are holding us bi men back -- on the contrary, women seem to play a more powerful role in how male sexuality is shaped, molded, accommodated, expressed. At least, there seems to be an inter-play between feminine and masculine, in *both* genders, that has manifested in me, such that the more a woman accepts the feminine side of me, the more in harmony my (bi) sexuality seems to become.

In general, I feel sex and sexuality are so rarely ever really openly included in whatever's going on. I can count on my fingers and toes the times when I felt comfortable enough to really open up about sex to the point where I really come out around being bisexual. Fortunately, the times I have had that sense of openness have all been really good, positive experiences.

-- p in northern cal.

[*pan*]

hi well heres my :2cents: ,
men are different because of many reasons, the macho thingy, fear of co-workers finding out, bashers, cheating on spouses, denial, political correctness, religions sin, community shunning, ect ... what it all boils down to and to make it short, it's society, plain and bluntly, society has been taken over by people of the bible or others who set the moral standards for the community, so it's no wonder that the government is not so fond of gay bi ect ... people in acient history were bisexual, romans, greeks, ect.... it wasn't till after the christians ran out the pagans that everything changed, think about it and do some research on ancient history. it was an 80 year old monk who started putting the word out on woman that had sex for money was sin, which was a nessary relief valve for society, and was used openly and extensively. today it's a crime to charge for or pay for sex. so the unfortunate few who's only reliefe valve is closed are out of luck and must get it somewhere else. so some turn to bi sex and other unlawful practices. people always have found a way to and always will find a way to have sex. it is a natural and nessary function of the human body. i am bisexual and my woman know it. not everyone around me needs to know it , it's on a need to know bases and most don't need to know. i believe we were born bisexual. and society and their rules are the ones that have the problem.

[spartca]

It sounds to me like a lot of folks are saying the same thing: Somehow bisexuality in women is more accepted by society than it is in men. That's the answer to the original poster's question of "Why so few men are openly bi?"

Personally I'd like to dig a little deeper to talk about how we can help to eliminate this bigotry against bisexual men. That's what makes me a bisexual *activist* lol.

[darkeyes]

It is but the glib pat answer spartca... but there is enough in the thread alone 2 analyse and be going on with to challenge the worlds view of it....

[spartca]

I agree darkeyes that a discussion on the topic is a great start to reversing the taboos. Hurray for that! :)

I'm left wanting more though - seriously I'd like to know what steps people are taking out there to reverse bigotry against bi men?

How can we make it safer for men to be out as bisexual? This is far from a pat answer, it's a sincere request for your opinion!

[darkeyes]

What I always do hun...keep an open door for ne man, or woman who may have probs wiv bi or homosexuality for themselves or ther loved 1's..comfort, advice, aid and am there for ne who need me....wiv peeps who argue an r moral bigots bout it, argue an try an demonstrate the error of their ways as logically an sensibly as me can... an wiv sum..ridicule ther more ludicrous prejudices if all else fails... demonstrate wen need b, argue politically an morally for ways forward within the political party of which I am a member for political action... fights prejudice werever me finds it!

Its a long hard struggle... but for all the fact that it is hugely important 2 me...there are more important political and idealogical battles which the human race faces.... the fight for sexual liberation an acceptance for all is in the great scheme of things but one small, but immensely important battle in the war for a better world, especially for those who it affects most.

[spartca]

Much respect to you darkeyes! :)

Any other ideas on how to reduce bigotry against bisexual men?

[TaylorMade]

Much respect to you darkeyes! :)

Any other ideas on how to reduce bigotry against bisexual men?

You know... that has been a major thought, but let's narrow it down to the negative perceptions first, and then figure out ways to conquer them.

*Taylor*

[darkeyes]

You know... that has been a major thought, but let's narrow it down to the negative perceptions first, and then figure out ways to conquer them.

*Taylor*
Sure is Taylor..havta know the bad so ya can cum up wiv the gud rite enuff... easy 2 c wer ur mum used ta live..an its rubbed off onya! :tong: :bigrin:

[spartca]

For those who are interested, I've started a new thread titled How to Reduce Bigotry Against Bisexual Men (http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3372). Looking forward to all your creative solutions! :)

[Curmudgeon]

My guess is that female bisexuality is seen as very attractive etc... is that straight blokes enjoy the idea of watching f/f activity [even if it is only 2 girls kissing] but there is always the theoretical possibility that those women will sleep with the straight bloke too. Izzfan :flag2:

When my wife and I were going to swinging parties it was "understood" that all women we bisexual, but it was not acceptable for men to be. Though she didn't self-identify as bisexual, she did enjoy several very hot encounters.
On the other hand, when is parties with a couple in the "group grope" room and ended up sucking the guy's cock some observer complained to the managers and we were asked not to return!

[Azrael]

I was going through a period where I was going manic about a year ago. I stopped being afraid and came out to a bunch of people, some of which were family members. I got sort of burned by my family and a few people I thought were friends. I'm not so out these days. I'll be working in a trade, so I'm guessing I better get used to the nice stuffy nauseating closet. I love my straight friends, I really do because they're all sensitive charming people. Two of the straightest guys on earth who I work with always give me a hug when they see me and tell me they love me. It's just a bit annoying being the only queer I know. Still, my friends keep me among the living.

[Fresia]

Bump it up!