Nature or nurture?

[LoveLion]

The question of nature vs nurture is a major debate going on in any field that has to do with human nature. And sexual orientation is no exception. Is someone's sexual orientation defined by nature, meaning it is written in their genetic code? Meaning that no matter their upbringing a person will be whatever sexual orientation they are meant to be. Or, is a person's sexual orientation defined by nurture? Meaning that sexual orientation is defined by you history and your upbringing?

Both are hard to accept and hard to deny. On one hand, if we assume that it is nature, then it takes away any notion of choice and free will towards sexual preference, we are gay, straight or bi, not by any choice or action, but just because we were born that way. It can also be hard to beleive that the lives we have lived through and our experiences have had no bearing on our sexual preferences. In that same category, if sexual orientation was genetic, then why dont we see hereditary homosexuality? Or is there hereditary homosexuality, but being openly gay is to new a concept to track it? On the flip side of the coin, it seems odd to think that sexual orientation is defined by your history. If that were the case, why are there so many gays, and bis from such a wide range of backgrounds. Someone with a white bread, suburban, 2 cars in the garage, big dog on the front step upbringing seems to have no larger or smaller chance of turning out Bi or gay then someone with a troubled childhood. Accepting nurture as a truth also has some dangers however. If it were widely accepted that your sexual orientation is a result of your upbringing, many parents would try very hard (and in many many cases, way to hard) to raise their child to grow up straight. An upbringing this forced and this focused could not only hurt a child/teen's morals and self esteem, but could also make then hate parts of themselves, and hate other homo and bisexuals.

I am asking this question here, because I think i will get some interesting and intelligent responses. I also think that this is a unique environment to be asking this question. If you pose it to the gay community, invariable, the majority of people say that it is genetic and they were all born gay. If posed to the straight community, the results are a little more mixed, but certainly more people claim nurture then the gay community.

So how about you Bi community? Nature or Nurture?

[DuskTillDawn]

I'm not in the most intelligent of moods today so this is going to be a rather basic reply.

I think its a combination of both, just like most aspects of human nature.

I did once read an article about a certain part of the brain being bigger in gay/bi people. There was a propsal within the christian comunity to allow parents to have this extra cut off of thier newborns in order to cure them. I'm not sure if this did apply to just the gay comunity however either way it is interesting. This would suggest it was a nature thing but I'm not entirly convinced.

I believe nurture plays a big part for a number of reasons. Every experience you have no matter how small has an effect in some way on your life, the one small experience will have constant knock-on effects, even if its just in a fleeting thought that runs through your head.

Just my :2cents:, dont know if it makes much sense....

[Dr.StrangeLove]

Theres a lot of evidence, and particularly in men, that homosexuality has a strong genetic link. So I think the primary determining factor is genes.

However, I had an anthropology teacher who talked about how cultures where young males and young females are kept apart, most people's first sexual experiences are with same-sex partners. This would suggest an environmental role as well.

I still think genes play the dominant role though...if it were environment, people would have an easier time changing their sexuality. Politically, I think its kind of dangerous to claim its primarily environmental.

[FerociousFeline]

:2cents: Hey Lion
Excellent question, and to further convolute and confuse things I'm going to add my two cents worth. Not ONLY is there the consideration of Nature vs. Nurture to mull over, but there is in my opinion a third extremely important and usually overlooked variable to the equation. Spirit.

Being the type that I am, I tend to go into things extremely deeply. Although this has sometimes proved a source of conflict in my personal relationships I can say that it is part of who I am. The desire to get to the ultimate BOTTOM of things, to find their very essence and then understand it has been something I have always done.

As I turned my magnifying glass to the topic at hand several years ago, (in my search to understand the power behind my own seemingly unexplainable impulses) I discovered that it is most likely that it isn't an either/or arguement. Instead, it's likely all three variables are actually true and that various groups of people respond to those variables based on their own lifepath history. I have come to believe that:

A) (Nature) There is a certain segment of the human population who have a genetic predispostion for homosexual behavior. These people are a subset of characteristic traits that are found in BOTH men and women. From color matching ability to a predisposition for high dexterity, from overt emotional response to masculine or effiminate behavior, many of these traits appear to overlap in the subset of people who seem to have these qualities as the result of innate nature. This group is what I would refer to as a "Prime" group. The reason for this label is that this group will rarely if ever re-evaluate their orientation, and it is unlikely that members of this group will ever switch their self identification of orientation.

B) (Nurture) There is a segment of the human population whose adoption of homosexual behavior is the result of either unconscious or conscious adaptation in the face of personal adversity during their formative years. This isn't to say that this group of people are any more or less than any of the other groups, but rather this is to state that these people are specifically NOT born with the genetic traits for homosexuality, but have for whatever reason decided to include the behavior as part of their core identity. This group of people may elect to stay in their self described orientation during one phase of their life, and later, after significant healing takes place from past issues, may elect to modify or even change their self decribed orientation.

C) (Spirit) This group of people may start out as any one of the various orientations, and as they progress in their life path may switch several times. This group of people may have the genetic coding for het behavior, yet because of the essence of their Spirit, (Talking about metaphysics here) may have the unconscious ability to draw upon past experience from previous lifetimes of either physical sex. This cumulative experience manifests itself as a Spirit which is far more androgenous. As with all things, the body will follow the energy of the Spirit. Native American Tribes and other Tribal peoples have historically in the past looked upon this group of people as a group of elevated or advanced Spirits. They were seen as entities who had the ability to walk in both the worlds of the Yin and the Yang energies. In these tribal cultures, these individuals where celebrated and respected for this ability. It should also be noted that I personally believe that this ability lies dormant in each and every one of us, and can be tapped into with the opening of the heart, mind, and Spirit.

Personally, I believe that the very basic nature of all humanity is that of Love.
It is only through the teachings of our life path, our cultures, our religions, our nations and our world, our hardship, that we are pulled so completely away from what IS..........our basic nature; To Love others as we love ourselves. To see not people, but Spirits when we are walking down the street. To recognise that we are all special, beautiful and mostly tortured souls who are worthy of each others Love and respect.

FF

[flexuality]

Nature...nurture......or neither?

I believe that we are all born with the capacity to love, to be attracted to, to be sexually attracted to....other people.

If we take sexuality out of the equation for a moment and look at just simple attraction as in something we like about another person.....we all vary greatly on what we like about other people. We have different tastes in friends, in the type of personalities we like to work with, or play with, or who we support politically. We are drawn to different people for different reasons. One person may be drawn to leadership qualities, while another is drawn to the underdog qualities and everything in between.

I believe that the greatest damage done to human sexuality was the introduction of the idea of "heterosexuality", (or "straight") as the only true sexuality of humankind.

Thus a label was born.

For whatever reason, probably extremely influenced by the church back when they were more powerful than governments (ie: the time of Constantine, 326 AD and the Council of Nicea), people bought into the idea that "straight" was the only allowable way to be and anything else was the "work of the devil" and completely intolerable.

History does support this.

So now we become increasingly aware that heterosexual is not the only way to be, but instead of eliminating the label that shouldn't have been there in the first place, we just invent more labels.

And then we wonder why we have such a heck of a time finding one that "suits" us....or we wonder why it seems to change...why one day one label fits, and the next day it doesn't.

Do we label ourselves based on what kind of people we are attracted to as friends? Do we label ourselves based on what kind of people we like to work with? Or on the colours we like? Our preference in furniture or decor? The clothes we choose or the art we like? These things are all based on attraction.

Yet we seem to have bought into the idea that labels for sexual attractions are necessary and right up there with oxygen.

To me this is like asking the marital status of the number 5....one could answer by saying that the number 5 is not married, therefor it must be single......or the number 5 is not single, therefor it must be married......when the reality is that a number does not have a marital status....therefor it is a completely irrelevant question.

It's the same thing with the nature/nurture question.....it could be answered that if it's not nature, then it must be nurture......or if it's not nurture, then it must be nature.....

I believe that it is the wrong question to ask.

That is my opinion.

[innaminka]

I feel its almost totally genetic.
I am not a scientist - I've read articles about this topic and the big words lose me.
I'm bi. I didn't ask to be bi - it happened. I am happy!
My sister is not bi. She's as str8 as a ruler without a hint of bigotry.
We have 18 months between us; same parents, same food, same school same everything. Neither of us were overly "tom-boyish" or "girly" - Just normal suburban kids.
Yet in my late 20's - early 30's after the pressures of child-rearing were lessening, I knew something was different in the way I related and felt about women.
I didn't eat a bad prawn or drink water from the Lesbo river.
It just happened.
I believe it was in me since conception.
My vote goes towards nature.

[FalconAngel]

Would that it were as simple as all of that.

As in all things about Human behavior and function, there are many factors in sexuality and no one thing is the answer. we are not that simple a species.


Genetics does, often play a role, but also there is the nurture which can play a role as often as not. There is also a factor that most people do not know about; after WWII there was a study by Cambridge University Humanities Dept. regarding sexuality. They found that there is a factor from the various stages of fetal development. During various stages of the development of the fetus, different levels of estrogen and testosterone are "fed" to the fetus. In the early stages, these chemicals determine the gender of the child, but when these chemicals are given to the fetus at the "wrong" times after the gender of the child has been determined, then you can have a wide variety of gender identity and/or sexuality issues in the child.

There are too many factors to go into in such a short response, but I hate the really long posts about this stuff. the info is out there on all of these things and, as far as I know, the scientific community is mostly in agreement that no one factor determines sexuality. There are a few that, when combined, create not just our gender, but our gender identity and sexuality in addition to other unrelated things about us.

[LoveLion]

Some very interesting responses. I didnt want to throw my opinion in on the subject right off the bat, so here it is now. I only way it makes sense to me that genetics has the power to make one more prone to homo or bisexuality, but your choices and your upbringing is the final piece to the puzzle. If genetics was the sole factor involved then it would be nearly impossible for homosexuality to be on the rise. For a gene to be passed on a child needs to be born, and its a fact that most homosexuals never have natural children of their own for obvious reasons. For homosexuality/bisexuality to be on the rise like it is today genetically, there would have to have been an astronomical amount of closet homosexual/Bisexual parents in the closet, living hetero lives and having children. Unless it is not a hereditary gene but some other factor that takes place in the genes, such as a genetic mutation, or chemical reaction during development. Again, it would be hard to beleive that such a mutation could occur in so many people.

The way I see it you may be more susceptible to homo/bisexuality due to your genes, but depending on your upbringing, you may never fall into that susceptibility.

There is another factor that usually doesnt come up in these debates, and that is choice. Both the idea of nature and nurture suggest a lack of will when it comes towards sexual orientation, meaning whether it is our genes or our upbringing, we are doomed to end up one way or the other. Your desires come naturally to you without choice, but I beleive that you choices in reaction to those feelings can also help to define you true sexual orientation. I am a firm believer in the conscious mind's power over the subconscious mind and body if enough thought and mental effort are put forward.

The idea of spirit is also an interesting one as well. I personally dont believe in spirituality on that level, but none of us (including me) can say that its untrue for certain.

[TaylorMade]

Both.

*Taylor*

[BreeIsMe]

I cannot say it is 100% but I could guess that at least 80-90% of what we are is NATURE. How can I say that??? Well, look at how people struggle to be what they are. Despite being in situations that are completely against that "nature" I know in my case, what I am is something that I have known "forever" and was in no way part of my upbringing. In fact, it is very much "AGAINST" my upbringing. Nuture....???
Not in my case. THere are also many biological explanations for what people are and if you look carefully, much of sexuality is likely determines by "receptors" not someone you grew up with or were exposed to. Most of the time Nuture" just brings out something that is already a biologic part of you...

My thoughts only

Bree


The question of nature vs nurture is a major debate going on in any field that has to do with human nature. And sexual orientation is no exception. Is someone's sexual orientation defined by nature, meaning it is written in their genetic code? Meaning that no matter their upbringing a person will be whatever sexual orientation they are meant to be. Or, is a person's sexual orientation defined by nurture? Meaning that sexual orientation is defined by you history and your upbringing?

Both are hard to accept and hard to deny. On one hand, if we assume that it is nature, then it takes away any notion of choice and free will towards sexual preference, we are gay, straight or bi, not by any choice or action, but just because we were born that way. It can also be hard to beleive that the lives we have lived through and our experiences have had no bearing on our sexual preferences. In that same category, if sexual orientation was genetic, then why dont we see hereditary homosexuality? Or is there hereditary homosexuality, but being openly gay is to new a concept to track it? On the flip side of the coin, it seems odd to think that sexual orientation is defined by your history. If that were the case, why are there so many gays, and bis from such a wide range of backgrounds. Someone with a white bread, suburban, 2 cars in the garage, big dog on the front step upbringing seems to have no larger or smaller chance of turning out Bi or gay then someone with a troubled childhood. Accepting nurture as a truth also has some dangers however. If it were widely accepted that your sexual orientation is a result of your upbringing, many parents would try very hard (and in many many cases, way to hard) to raise their child to grow up straight. An upbringing this forced and this focused could not only hurt a child/teen's morals and self esteem, but could also make then hate parts of themselves, and hate other homo and bisexuals.

I am asking this question here, because I think i will get some interesting and intelligent responses. I also think that this is a unique environment to be asking this question. If you pose it to the gay community, invariable, the majority of people say that it is genetic and they were all born gay. If posed to the straight community, the results are a little more mixed, but certainly more people claim nurture then the gay community.

So how about you Bi community? Nature or Nurture?

[scubaman]

For breavity reasons and having to get ready for work, I say both!

[jem_is_bi]

I have wanted to have sex with males for as long as I have wanted sex.
I have wanted to have sex with females for as long as I have wanted sex.
The beauty of women has always excited me as long as I have wanted sex.
Nice breasts, butt, and especially a nice pair of female legs.
A handsome man has always excited me as long as I have wanted sex.
I really a male’s muscled body and beautiful penis.
I have wanted sex with men more than women for as long as I have wanted sex.
Is it nature or nurture that is responsible for my desires?
Does it matter?
Yes, if there is a significant attempt to alter our genetics.
I do not see how the loss of genetic and social variety can benefit our society.

jem_is_bi :soapbox:

[lenina]

My personal belief has always been that nature does determine one's sexual orientation, while one's choice to accept it and follow it through is determined by nurture.

And I certainly believe that I'm bi since birth but that without the kind of upbringing I had I might not have dared to consider it possible or valid. So I'm pretty happy with how things turned out :flag1:

[darkeyes]

I have wanted to have sex with males for as long as I have wanted sex.
I have wanted to have sex with females for as long as I have wanted sex.
The beauty of women has always excited me as long as I have wanted sex.
Nice breasts, butt, and especially a nice pair of female legs.
A handsome man has always excited me as long as I have wanted sex.
I really a male’s muscled body and beautiful penis.
I have wanted sex with men more than women for as long as I have wanted sex.
Is it nature or nurture that is responsible for my desires?
Does it matter?
Yes, if there is a significant attempt to alter our genetics.
I do not see how the loss of genetic and social variety can benefit our society.

jem_is_bi :soapbox:Jem hun 2 you and me it doesnt matter a sod.. I have always prefered my own sex, but it doesnt matter to me why..it just is. However there are always people who will want to know why to everything.. some because of curiosity, some because they have to and some to stretch the frontiers of human knowledge. But sometimes a little knowledge is a dangerous thing..thats why there are some who want to know so they can fuck with our heads and our genetics to make us nice and pure and straight.. or who knows...if nazi germany is anything to go by..extinct.

[lenina]

But sometimes a little knowledge is a dangerous thing..thats why there are some who want to know so they can fuck with our heads and our genetics to make us nice and pure and straight.. or who knows...if nazi germany is anything to go by..extinct.

And why see it that way instead of seeing it as once it is proven that sexual preference has a genetic base and it's just another characteristic... just like having blonde, ginger or brown hair, or green, blue or brown eyes, it will HAVE to be widely accepted and the nonsensical discrimination based on "oooh, they're monsters!" will end?

I HIGHLY doubt that whichever scientist or evil mastermind who is behind all of this is looking to exterminate (being conservative) 10% of the population of the world whey they "find out what gene is causing the deviation"... :rolleyes: really, any amount of knowledge is better than ignorance

[jem_is_bi]

Jem hun 2 you and me it doesnt matter a sod.. I have always prefered my own sex, but it doesnt matter to me why..it just is. However there are always people who will want to know why to everything.. some because of curiosity, some because they have to and some to stretch the frontiers of human knowledge. But sometimes a little knowledge is a dangerous thing..thats why there are some who want to know so they can fuck with our heads and our genetics to make us nice and pure and straight.. or who knows...if nazi germany is anything to go by..extinct.

Hi darkeyes, I am glad to know that you are comfortable with your sexuality at a much younger age than myself. I can understand your focus on nazi germany given recient european history. My father fought them in WW2.
However, my major worry is militant, extreme religious people. Those that believe they have direct communication with God. Their desire to create Heaven on earth is much more likely to lead to extreme repression and attempts to purify society of all aspects of human life and genetics that are not in harmony with their beliefs. Fortunately, in my country no single religion is dominant. So far, this has had prevented major problems to develop. Even though gay and bisexual discrimination is wide spread, it could be worse. However, in much of the world has extremism is reality and only lacks the technical knowledge for advanced harm.
I treasure my religious upbringing for how it helped shaped my views of life, respect for others and the world that supports our existence. However, respect for others implies tolerance of their beliefs. Tolerance seems to be in short supply. So, I remain worried about the future.

jem_is_bi

[Herbwoman39]

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: For a time I was a psychology major and we debated Nature v Nurture until it was coming out our ears. The conclusion we came to is that genetics plays a major role but without the nurture or life experience aspect, the nature aspect is not nearly as prevalent.

For instance, had I not been exposed to half naked native women in National Geographic at a young age, would I have shown the interest I did in the female later? Had I not been born to a mother who was an amateur artist who had books of nudes, would I be who I am today?

If I had been born to a business woman and surrounded by contracts and mergers as a child, that bit of genetic code may never have been sparked.

Thus I believe the answer is Yes...Both.

[Studley2000]

For as long as I can remember I've been attracted to women. I love to look at them and fantasize about them. In fact I love having sex with them every chance I get.

With men it's different. I love to have sex with them also, but I fantasize very little about it. The form and shape of their bodies doesn't turn me on until they are naked with me in bed. It has always been like this for me.

I beleive that the predisposition to bisexual behaviour is a product of nature, and the reaction to that predispostion is nurture.

[TorontoGuy2007]

i would say i am 99.99% on the nature side of the debate.

why would anyone "choose" to be gay or bi and subject themselves to confusion and discrimination from the majority of the world?

but interesting thought.. let's say you were born and abandonned on a desserted island with no other people.. let's say you will have to live your entire life without other human contact.. without ever knowing about the existance of other people, can you still somehow envision what sexual acticity would be like with other males or females if you don't even know that other people exist?? this is a very interesting hypothetical question, that's for sure..

[Herbwoman39]

let's say you were born and abandonned on a desserted island with no other people.. let's say you will have to live your entire life without other human contact.. without ever knowing about the existance of other people, can you still somehow envision what sexual acticity would be like with other males or females if you don't even know that other people exist?? this is a very interesting hypothetical question, that's for sure..

This was the point I was trying to make. If I was not exposed to certain stimulus (nudes/female forms) at a very impressionable age, would I have turned out bisexual? Because I was, I believe that "nurture" has a part in my sexuality.

As for the question, I feel that the situation would give rise to some interesting logical debate in the person's head. "What am I, where do I come from, is this all there is..." and that's just the beginning. Someone in that situation would probably end up creating an entire mythology based on their experiences and perceptions. If it wasn't unbearably cruel it would be a fascinating experiment.

[DiamondDog]

In my case my sexuality is definitely nature and it's hereditary. I know of other families where on one side of the family the men were bisexual or it would skip some but then someone's son or other male relative would be bisexual or even gay. It's also like this in other people's families I know where the one person is a gay man and his older sister is lesbian, and their nephew is gay.

[texguy3640]

This is a question that has consumed most of my life. "why am I the way I am" I can remember my parents and grandparents looking at me funny and then make eyes at each other when I would try to immulate how my grandmother or mother was holding there hands on their hips. I never really understood why they would look at me funny then at each other. Then I would hear them talking to each other about how bad and morally wrong it was to be gay. You were going to hell if you acted upon it. Now I now they were talking about me because at that age I was very aware and keen on what was going on around me. I was always told that I was more grown up than most grown ups. But I tried to surpress my feeling when I started puberty because I did not want to go to HELL. I finally had an encounter with my best friend and though I enjoyed it I got physically sick afterwards because I knew I was going to hell. I fought my emotions for years and years and I married a wonderful woman that I cherrish but I have come to the realization as of late. I was born this way. It's who I am. It's me. It's why I'm me. Though I can never come out to any of my family because of the way they still think I will continue to keep this secret locked inside and know that I'm not a bad person. So to answer the question I think it's nature although I also think a small percentage is because of nurture. In the big scheme of things who cares why your the way you are what's important is that you like yourself. The real problem is society and the labels that people use to describe what and who you are.

[Vatnos]

It is difficult to say, but from personal experience I'm leaning towards the idea that sexuality is socially conditioned. I thought it was genetic for many years, but my sexuality shifted a bit over time, and that has forced me to reevaluate that position. Admittedly, I was always bisexual to some extent. I've always been a bit 'genderqueer' mentally. I just shifted from being 80/20 to 50/50.

Think about what kinds of men and women you're attracted to: are they the same as they were when you were 16? When I was 16 I found 16-year-old girls hot. Now I find women my current age (26) hotter, and there's a bit of a physiological difference between those groups. The brain has a lot of plasticity to it; it can move away from things it used to like and acquire new tastes very slowly. I am of the opinion that someone's sexuality can completely change over the course of 10-ish years. There is enough plasticity for a man who was formerly interested in women to develop an acquired taste for men, and vice versa. It's not something they can consciously force, but there is a huge emotional component that changes as your emotions change over time.

[ErosUrge]

There are so many intelligent and well thought out reasons given here. And I couldn't help but want to add my own experiences concerning the topic.

I really can't say whether it's nature or nurture and FEROCIOUS FELINE'S input about the SPIRIT makes a lot of sense to me. For some, perhaps only one of these or all 3.

When I look back on my entire life and remember my first stirrings towards sexual energy, I never questioned what was going on; I just knew that it was. And when I was a child, my first experiences were mostly with other boys my age and then as I got older eventaully with girls. It was the conditioning of family, school, and religion, where all imposed upon me what was "supposed" to be normal and what wasn't. I began to realize that having interest sexually in the same sex was considered very negative from those 3 areas.

When I finally reached an age (18 years old) to decide for myself, I learned that there was a label for someone like me who was genuinely interested in both sexes; bisexuality. As we all know, there are so many variations as to what we enjoy regardless of what our sexuality is.

Anyhow, for a while just having a label or word that defined my sexuality was very encouraging for me at the time. Without going into great detail about every aspect of my life concerning my sexuality, I can only say that I know and believe I knew that I was/am always bisexual. Even when I was in complete denial about being bi for years and feared it, I knew it was who I was. The 'nurture' part of it interferred in my later adult life where I didn't want to have desires for the same sex anymore due mostly to societal pressures. I also felt very abnormal because though I might be with a woman I loved dearly whether in marriage or in a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship, I could never stop my desire for the same sex and only for sex. I remember feeling cursed that I could not stop those desires and lived secretly and with a great amount of guilt for not being able to stop the desires and the activity while being very much in love with whichever woman I was supposed to be committed to. So in that regard, one could say nature came into play. But then one could argue the nurture/societal aspect of it was affecting me because I knew most people would see me as abnormal with such desires.

And the genetic aspect of this I don't really know if I agree with it. Perhaps it does; perhaps it doesn't.

I would go into the Spirit aspect of this had I more time. But in short, I will say that Spirit helped me to understand that this was/is who I am in that area of the person I am. When I came to terms with it all, I was finally at peace about it and totally embraced being bisexual and open about it to most people I am close to.

I do know of some people who never had the desire or were conscious of the desire for the same sex for a good portion of their lives. And for whatever reason, became curious much later in their lives. And again, for whatever reasons. Then when they stepped out and decided to explore those curiosities, decided from them whether they liked it or not; continued or not. Here we can certainly say it was a choice. But then one could say that though someone like me who has been interested and active with both sexes all my life is nature, and that it is also a choice. I certainly choose to be sexually expressive and experience things sexually as a bi human being. Yet at the same time, I can't see myself with only one sex for the rest of my life. Nature or nurture, or both? I know some people who were bisexual at one time and then chose not to be active sexually anymore with both choosing one over the other. Does this now mean they are no longer bi? I know many will say that, "no, they just learned how to control their urges for sex with others away from their significant other"....etc etc etc....and here again, one could say because of nurture for this choice.

In certain ways, it is very complex and we can analyze and analyze. Sooner or later, we simply make peace with it however we choose.