Shemales in Canada

[mindfinding]

Do they exist here?

I've often wondered if I have passed one on the street. For years I've wanted to sit and chat with a shemale just to ask what its like and the so on. I think this is a part of society we could learn somethings from.

Does anyone here have any friends from that life? If so, can you tell me how they interact with others? Social habits and so on.

Cheers

[mindfinding]

Just found out theres a difference between shemales and hermaphrodites. The more you know, huh?

I'm just looking for more info about either.

Cheers

[Eddie altamonte]

My advice is not to call them "Shemales" They prefer TS Ladies. A relationship of this type can be very fulfilling but many are very high maintenance and be ready to face commitment issues as well

[mindfinding]

Noted and appreciated, however I'm not looking for a sexaul relationship or relationship in general. I am happily married, just looking to know more about them.

On that note, you sound like you speak from experience, if your willing to share I'm listening.

Cheers

[Keliana]

Just found out theres a difference between shemales and hermaphrodites. The more you know, huh?

I'm just looking for more info about either.

Cheers

Here we go again..."shemales" and "hermaphrodites".
Calling a transsexual a "shemale" or Intersexed person a "hermaphrodite" is akin to calling a black person a "nigger" or a gay person a "fag".

It's best to learn more about your subject before you post. Try doing a google search on Transsexualism or Intersex conditions. I'm sure it'll enlighten you.

Peace,

Keliana

[erotix]

You could be helpful and define the right terms so that people can be correct

Howver, I beg to differ about use of the terms:
"Shemale" is used by many people who classify themselves as shemales... and you can see pages of "shemale" escort ads in papers and websites.. I have yet to see an ad for a "nigger escort" or a "faggot escort"

Also the term transexual is not clear... at least to me. Is a transexual a guy with a dick and breast implants who may or may not be taking hormone therapy?

Is it someone who has had a sex change operation?

What about transvestites and drag queens? It's all so confusing?

"Hermaphrodite" seems to be an outmoded but not a pejorative term.

Could you clarify?


Here we go again..."shemales" and "hermaphrodites".
Calling a transsexual a "shemale" or Intersexed person a "hermaphrodite" is akin to calling a black person a "nigger" or a gay person a "fag".

It's best to learn more about your subject before you post. Try doing a google search on Transsexualism or Intersex conditions. I'm sure it'll enlighten you.

Peace,

Keliana

[Fire Lotus]

You could be helpful and define the right terms so that people can be correct

Howver, I beg to differ about use of the terms:
"Shemale" is used by many people who classify themselves as shemales... and you can see pages of "shemale" escort ads in papers and websites.. I have yet to see an ad for a "nigger escort" or a "faggot escort"

Also the term transexual is not clear... at least to me. Is a transexual a guy with a dick and breast implants who may or may not be taking hormone therapy?

Is it someone who has had a sex change operation?

What about transvestites and drag queens? It's all so confusing?

"Hermaphrodite" seems to be an outmoded but not a pejorative term.

Could you clarify?


These threads may be helpful, as this subject has been covered.

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2959

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3183

[Jeff1229]

Here's what I was once told by a transexual female. A shemale is a male that has had cosmetic surgery<facial,breast augmentation>,but not undergoing hormone therapy, to appear more feminine. A transexual is someone that feels like they are in the wrong body and is undergoing hormone therapy,the body modifcations AND the counseling to become the person they truly believe they should be.

[Keliana]

Being intersexed myself, I WILL SAY yes, "hermaphrodite" IS a derogatory term.

"shemale" is a derogatory term to transsexuals. I live with one and have been around that community for over a decade.

Those who refer to themselves as "shemales" are not true transsexuals within the medical definition of "transsexual", also known as "Gender Identity Disorder" (as indicated in the DSM manual). A transsexual is someone who is born biologically under one gender but has a persistant desire/need to become the other gender and wishes to undergo a sex change. Some follow through and others don't due to economic or medical reasons. Those who do go through with a sex change are known as "post-ops" and may identify as females with a transsexual past.

A "shemale" is a term coined by the pornography industry to objectify the trans porn stars. It is also used by those who are in that industry. These people usually have no desire to change their sex and only wish to limit their transition where they live between the male and female body...ie- "chick with a dick". These people's motivations are not genuinely gender oriented and are more sexual fetish oriented and it demeans the transsexual community.

Transgender is an umbrella term to describe all gender varient people. This includes transvestites (a latin term meaning "crossdresser"). Transvestites are males who dress up in women's attire for fetishtic purposes or to temporarily relieve a gender discomfort (ie-express a feminine side) for a short duration. Transgender or "transgenderist" is also used by those who merely wish to live in the opposite gender but have no real desire to change their sex.

An intersex person is one who's biology falls somewhere between the typical xx female and xy male make up. An intersexed individual can be a male with xx chromosomes, female with xy choromosomes...or any variation in between (xxy, x, y, xyy, xxyy, xyyy, xxxy, etc). Some are born with both male and female genitalia, some with none. Some have partially developed male or female genitalia, or mostly female with a "hint" of female or vice versa. I think you get the picture now.

There have been two other posts on this subject within the last week or two. If tempers flare, please understand...it grows old explaining this over and over again.

[izzfan]

Yeah, the main place the term 'shemale' is used is within the porn business. Another term to watch is 'tranny' - its like 'queer', probably only best used if you consider yourself to be one.

Now that we've got that out of the way, I have to say that I've never actually [knowingly] met a TS/TG person which is a shame really as I have been a TV/CD for about 5-6 years or so [my first proper CDing experience was when I was about 13 if I remeber properly] and I still think of myself as a bit strange [however this is a lot less than it used to be, thanks to learning about other transvestites/Crossdressers such as Eddie Izzard (incidentally, my username is a reference to Izzard if you hadn't guessed already lol), watching a couple of programs about it and reading websites about it when I was 16]. I'll never forget the first time I bought a dress (when I was 15/16) - I was practically shaking with fear before I even got to the counter lol - its not easy being a CD/TV lol. Basically, as I was saying before I went off on a random tangeant I don't seem to have knowingly met any TG people which is a real shame as I have never got the chance to discuss CD/TV stuff with people (except over the internet in recent months) who are actually interested in it/ won't think of me as strange lol.

But yeah, most statistics seem to say that 1-5% of people are transgendered in some way so chances are that we've all seen/met TG people without knowing it.

Izzfan :flag2:

[Cogent]

What you seem to be saying is that those people who are "chicks with dicks" are an affront to "true" transexuals. I don't get it. How can one person's sexual prefernce be an affront to some one else? Are str8 people and affont to gays, and visa versa.

Shemales and chickes with dicks have every right to their choice? now what should they be called that's not pejorative?



Being intersexed myself, I WILL SAY yes, "hermaphrodite" IS a derogatory term.

"shemale" is a derogatory term to transsexuals. ...

Those who refer to themselves as "shemales" are not true transsexuals within the medical definition of "transsexual", also known as "Gender Identity Disorder" (as indicated in the DSM manual).

A "shemale" usually have no desire to change their sex and only wish to limit their transition where they live between the male and female body...ie- "chick with a dick".

These people's motivations are not genuinely gender oriented and are more sexual fetish oriented and it demeans the transsexual community.

.

[mindfinding]

Being intersexed myself, I WILL SAY yes, "hermaphrodite" IS a derogatory term.

"shemale" is a derogatory term to transsexuals. I live with one and have been around that community for over a decade.

Those who refer to themselves as "shemales" are not true transsexuals within the medical definition of "transsexual", also known as "Gender Identity Disorder" (as indicated in the DSM manual). A transsexual is someone who is born biologically under one gender but has a persistant desire/need to become the other gender and wishes to undergo a sex change. Some follow through and others don't due to economic or medical reasons. Those who do go through with a sex change are known as "post-ops" and may identify as females with a transsexual past.

A "shemale" is a term coined by the pornography industry to objectify the trans porn stars. It is also used by those who are in that industry. These people usually have no desire to change their sex and only wish to limit their transition where they live between the male and female body...ie- "chick with a dick". These people's motivations are not genuinely gender oriented and are more sexual fetish oriented and it demeans the transsexual community.

Transgender is an umbrella term to describe all gender varient people. This includes transvestites (a latin term meaning "crossdresser"). Transvestites are males who dress up in women's attire for fetishtic purposes or to temporarily relieve a gender discomfort (ie-express a feminine side) for a short duration. Transgender or "transgenderist" is also used by those who merely wish to live in the opposite gender but have no real desire to change their sex.

An intersex person is one who's biology falls somewhere between the typical xx female and xy male make up. An intersexed individual can be a male with xx chromosomes, female with xy choromosomes...or any variation in between (xxy, x, y, xyy, xxyy, xyyy, xxxy, etc). Some are born with both male and female genitalia, some with none. Some have partially developed male or female genitalia, or mostly female with a "hint" of female or vice versa. I think you get the picture now.

There have been two other posts on this subject within the last week or two. If tempers flare, please understand...it grows old explaining this over and over again.


Really sorry about that. I'm not trying to be rude. Still learning about this. If you have any other wisdom to offer I'm totally listening. Friends? :)

[Keliana]

What you seem to be saying is that those people who are "chicks with dicks" are an affront to "true" transexuals. I don't get it. How can one person's sexual prefernce be an affront to some one else? Are str8 people and affont to gays, and visa versa.

Shemales and chickes with dicks have every right to their choice? now what should they be called that's not pejorative?

NO, what I'm saying is, people confuse the two as being the same thing. Gender identity is NOT sexual preference, it has to due with identifying with a gender. A transsexual can be straight, bi or homosexual identified. An affront? Hmmm..well, if you ask any transsexual on bisexual.com I guarantee you, they will see shemales as an affront to transsexuals. Remember, you're forgetting, there are "female to male" transsexuals too. Shemale is a lifestyle choice, a term describing a transgendered person who lives a certain lifestyle involving the sex industry. Transsexualism is a medical condition.

And yes, "shemales" can call whatever they want to call themselves. What I'm saying is....transsexuals take offense to being called "shemale". Let me simplify- Take for instance, a people who speak English. You have an Irishman and an Englishman. The Irishman would take offense to being called an Englishman and viceversa. Or, a person from Spain being called a Mexican...

People have a bad habit of "pidgeon holeing" others who have a commonality. In the case of "shemale" vs. "transsexual", you are lumping them as all being the same because of the common gender variance, when it fact their motivations are entirely different.

If you looked in a hustler magazine spread or saw female prostitute on the street, would you refer to all women and being whores, just because a small select group of women choose to live that lifestyle?

There are distinct differences between the gender variant people. These are human beings who struggle in society and have to fight tooth and nail to have a place in society. To objectify them and to refer them as being other than who they identify with is just plain unconscionable. ]

[BreeIsMe]

I know someone, Haha....ME!!!
but not in Canada...

Bree

Do they exist here?

I've often wondered if I have passed one on the street. For years I've wanted to sit and chat with a shemale just to ask what its like and the so on. I think this is a part of society we could learn somethings from.

Does anyone here have any friends from that life? If so, can you tell me how they interact with others? Social habits and so on.

Cheers

[BreeIsMe]

I agree entirely with Keliana
She is very aware of transgendered issues and can speak for all of us "transgendered" individuals. She is very correct that most of the terms you use are definitely derogatory...


bree


Being intersexed myself, I WILL SAY yes, "hermaphrodite" IS a derogatory term.

"shemale" is a derogatory term to transsexuals. I live with one and have been around that community for over a decade.

Those who refer to themselves as "shemales" are not true transsexuals within the medical definition of "transsexual", also known as "Gender Identity Disorder" (as indicated in the DSM manual). A transsexual is someone who is born biologically under one gender but has a persistant desire/need to become the other gender and wishes to undergo a sex change. Some follow through and others don't due to economic or medical reasons. Those who do go through with a sex change are known as "post-ops" and may identify as females with a transsexual past.

A "shemale" is a term coined by the pornography industry to objectify the trans porn stars. It is also used by those who are in that industry. These people usually have no desire to change their sex and only wish to limit their transition where they live between the male and female body...ie- "chick with a dick". These people's motivations are not genuinely gender oriented and are more sexual fetish oriented and it demeans the transsexual community.

Transgender is an umbrella term to describe all gender varient people. This includes transvestites (a latin term meaning "crossdresser"). Transvestites are males who dress up in women's attire for fetishtic purposes or to temporarily relieve a gender discomfort (ie-express a feminine side) for a short duration. Transgender or "transgenderist" is also used by those who merely wish to live in the opposite gender but have no real desire to change their sex.

An intersex person is one who's biology falls somewhere between the typical xx female and xy male make up. An intersexed individual can be a male with xx chromosomes, female with xy choromosomes...or any variation in between (xxy, x, y, xyy, xxyy, xyyy, xxxy, etc). Some are born with both male and female genitalia, some with none. Some have partially developed male or female genitalia, or mostly female with a "hint" of female or vice versa. I think you get the picture now.

There have been two other posts on this subject within the last week or two. If tempers flare, please understand...it grows old explaining this over and over again.

[BreeIsMe]

One last thought---a personal one
I don't like the word "transexual" either.

This implies that my desires are simply "sexual"

I prefer the word transgender, although it does connotate other issues to some (and Keliana, I apologize to you for using the word in this manner)
if what I prefer to use since it means a larger "gender" issue which isn't simply just "sex" related. It is extremely hard to explain but real in my mind.
Hope everyone can keep an open mind on this as I feel that positive vibes are a big part of this site for me!!

Bree

[Solomon]

NO, what I'm saying is, people confuse the two as being the same thing. Gender identity is NOT sexual preference, it has to due with identifying with a gender. A transsexual can be straight, bi or homosexual identified. An affront? Hmmm..well, if you ask any transsexual on bisexual.com I guarantee you, they will see shemales as an affront to transsexuals. Remember, you're forgetting, there are "female to male" transsexuals too. Shemale is a lifestyle choice, a term describing a transgendered person who lives a certain lifestyle involving the sex industry. Transsexualism is a medical condition.

And yes, "shemales" can call whatever they want to call themselves. What I'm saying is....transsexuals take offense to being called "shemale". Let me simplify- Take for instance, a people who speak English. You have an Irishman and an Englishman. The Irishman would take offense to being called an Englishman and viceversa. Or, a person from Spain being called a Mexican...

People have a bad habit of "pidgeon holeing" others who have a commonality. In the case of "shemale" vs. "transsexual", you are lumping them as all being the same because of the common gender variance, when it fact their motivations are entirely different.

If you looked in a hustler magazine spread or saw female prostitute on the street, would you refer to all women and being whores, just because a small select group of women choose to live that lifestyle?

There are distinct differences between the gender variant people. These are human beings who struggle in society and have to fight tooth and nail to have a place in society. To objectify them and to refer them as being other than who they identify with is just plain unconscionable. ]

Keliana, i do respect what you're saying about not wanting to be negatively stereotyped, but is there anyone who's not negatively stereotyped to some degree?

i'm just a simple man, and i genuinely have no desire to be offensive, and i also just as genuinely have no desire to be required to attend 4+ years of higher education in order to avoid being offensive....

and truthfully i believe that this is where the legal system has failed everyone by making laws specifically for a race and not all people

is there a better way to get through this seeming impasse?

[Solomon]

just to elaborate...

i'm very confused as to seeming stretch of the imagination for some that when a person has an operation to change their physical sex, then what's the problem with seeing that person as (in the case of FTM) a guy, and then MTF would be seen as women?? i don't get the point of seeing these people as the sex they were... it's history, and nothing more i think...

as far as the other terms... well they apply to some people too don't they? so how would they be seen as derogatory? they're just applying to another group of people aren't they? some of'em might be in the porn industry.. how does that hurt anyone?

truthfully i think if a person goes to all the trouble of having an operation to change sexes, then the person that's seen after the op would be the truer person of the two... if not then sorry 'bout their luck lol

like i said before, i see a guy.... to me it's a guy, if i see a woman it's a woman.... if i see someone with both, then it's both..... why is it any more complicated than that? i'm not looking to offend... i'm looking to keep my brain from gettin fried lol! :crosseye:

[darkeyes]

Keliana, i do respect what you're saying about not wanting to be negatively stereotyped, but is there anyone who's not negatively stereotyped to some degree?

i'm just a simple man, and i genuinely have no desire to be offensive, and i also just as genuinely have no desire to be required to attend 4+ years of higher education in order to avoid being offensive....

and truthfully i believe that this is where the legal system has failed everyone by making laws specifically for a race and not all people

is there a better way to get through this seeming impasse? I agree entirely with what keliana says so once again Sol are we in disagreement?? Avoiding being offensive is a matter of manners and care and consideration..no one needs to go to higher education to have them.

I do disagree with you regarding laws designed specifically for race, at least positive legislation ( and I do not necessarily mean law to positively discriminate here... the jury in my head is out here and I can see pros and cons on this issue), not those which once existed in South Africa or parts of the US and designed to maintain ethnic superiority of one race over others. The reason we require law to support any minority is because of prejdice and intolerance, not just race but any minority such as ourselves or gays. They exist because they are needed. Sure they are not perfect and are a condemnation of the society in which they have been drafted, but without them minorites would be so much worse of than they are. It is all very well to pass legislation for all of the people..ina perfct world this would be the case..but the world isnt perfect and we must muddle along as best we can until (and if..fat chance!!) it ever is. Consequently passing legislation to cater positively for minorities is law for ALL the people.. clumsy, innefficient and imperfect..but so badly needed.

One thing Kel said which I found interesting. She says

If you looked in a hustler magazine spread or saw female prostitute on the street, would you refer to all women and being whores, just because a small select group of women choose to live that lifestyle?

I can assure you that I know quite a few men who actually do believe that all women are whores, and are to be treated and used as such with all the care and consideration of a cat toying with a mouse before it finishes it off! No I do not think that all men are like that, not even near the majority, but 2 many still think of us as something to be used, and be at their beck and call and are less than equal intellectually or morally. Just as we require positive legislation for minorities, do we not require positive legislation for women who are after all the majority to prevent their oppression and being treated like dirt? What else were equal pay acts, equality of opportunity acts, education acts, electotoral acts giving us the vote, and a myriad of positive legislation other than laws for all the people aimed at helping a disadvantaged majority? Or is it only ok for this to happen to majorities?

[Long Duck Dong]

lol solomon

I see it a lot with my trans friends, and while they can be very cutting with their retorts, they also admit, that they start to become hard skinned and hard hearted to stop the hurt... and that affects them negatively as they can react to somebody accidentally making a innocent remark that comes out wrong

I have seen my trans friends handle most situations like the one when i actually wet my pants laughing, we were drinking in a pub and a loud mouth asshole said to one of the ladies that she was nothing but a fucked up guy in a dress that never needed the op cos she couldn't handle having balls..... my friend just smiled and said, thats true, honey...and you are a guy that bends over so your gf can slip one up you with my old balls....

[Solomon]

so does that mean that i'm to be discriminated against and it should be just fine an dandy because i don't fit into any 'minority' as such??

in case you haven't noticed that's exactly what those idiots like the KKK are bitching about... and it is legitimate and i find that to be a problem! it's bad enough we gotta deal with these dickheads in the first place an then our wonderful legistation gives'em something to use to grow their memberships???

i'm not a member or fan of those groups... i do however hold the lawmakers accountable for adjusting the law until it makes sense for everybody

as far as calling people names, i prefer to call people what they wanna be called... i just wish i could keep it straight in me head of who's what lol

[darkeyes]

dontcha sol?? so aint bi then???

[Solomon]

do they have laws about bi's?

now what 'bout the other millions of causasians?

[darkeyes]

they hav laws about same sex relationships an marriage an same sex sex..that not bout bi's as well as gays like?

If u lived suwwer like Zimbabwe wer whites wer in the minority an bein screwed c how ya feel hun.. reason most anti discrimination legislation exists is 2 stop the majority fuckin up the minority..wish we didn need em but reality says we do... they aint perfect cos we aint a percet species.. an if we wer we wud need those laws ne way...

Now stop soundin so angry... :)

[Solomon]

i have been on the recieving end of discrimination, as everyone has from time to time

it is something to get passionate about..... but what scares me about the way they write these laws is the groups that love hatred and violence feed off of'em.... there was just recently a KKK demonstration in Gettysburg!! that was absolutely disgusting the way they were using these legitimate gripes to spread their filth! and on what i consider to be sacred ground! :(

i used to live in the country and it was wooded an all so i couldn't see'em, but at night sometimes i'd hear'em having a gathering or something down in the hollow below my house, gave me the creeps!

anyways... i've gotten waaayyy off topic, sorry.... sigh...

[Solomon]

lol solomon

I see it a lot with my trans friends, and while they can be very cutting with their retorts, they also admit, that they start to become hard skinned and hard hearted to stop the hurt... and that affects them negatively as they can react to somebody accidentally making a innocent remark that comes out wrong

I have seen my trans friends handle most situations like the one when i actually wet my pants laughing, we were drinking in a pub and a loud mouth asshole said to one of the ladies that she was nothing but a fucked up guy in a dress that never needed the op cos she couldn't handle having balls..... my friend just smiled and said, thats true, honey...and you are a guy that bends over so your gf can slip one up you with my old balls....

LOL! i woulda loved to have been there!

i think it's healthy to get a hard skin over being insulted, i get that way alot sometimes too lol

[darkeyes]

i have been on the recieving end of discrimination, as everyone has from time to time

it is something to get passionate about..... but what scares me about the way they write these laws is the groups that love hatred and violence feed off of'em.... there was just recently a KKK demonstration in Gettysburg!! that was absolutely disgusting the way they were using these legitimate gripes to spread their filth! and on what i consider to be sacred ground! :(

i used to live in the country and it was wooded an all so i couldn't see'em, but at night sometimes i'd hear'em having a gathering or something down in the hollow below my house, gave me the creeps!

anyways... i've gotten waaayyy off topic, sorry.... sigh... They may well feed off them Sol, for it is a valid point to make and we are not for once so completely opposed on this... but I argue that were thse laws not to exist, jus how much worse things would be if nazis like the KKK in the US or the BNP in the UK would be if allowed free and unfettered license to preach their filth!

For the greater good may we be prepared to sacrifice a little freedom and put up with a little inconvenience.

[BreeIsMe]

Freedom is one thing and I support freedom but NOT when it comes to freedom to pursue activities which increase discrimination against others.

That should not be tolerated...

Bree

[Keliana]

Keliana, i do respect what you're saying about not wanting to be negatively stereotyped, but is there anyone who's not negatively stereotyped to some degree?

i'm just a simple man, and i genuinely have no desire to be offensive, and i also just as genuinely have no desire to be required to attend 4+ years of higher education in order to avoid being offensive....

and truthfully i believe that this is where the legal system has failed everyone by making laws specifically for a race and not all people

is there a better way to get through this seeming impasse?

================================================== ========

No one wants to be negatively stereotyped and one certainly doesn't need a four year degree to avoid being offensive. It just takes common decency.


The capacity for getting along with our neighbor depends to a large extent on the capacity for getting along with ourselves. The self-respecting individual will try to be as tolerant of his neighbor's shortcomings as he is of his own.

Peace,

Keliana

[mindfinding]

================================================== ========

No one wants to be negatively stereotyped and one certainly doesn't need a four year degree to avoid being offensive. It just takes common decency.

The capacity for getting along with our neighbor depends to a large extent on the capacity for getting along with ourselves. The self-respecting individual will try to be as tolerant of his neighbor's shortcomings as he is of his own.

Peace,

Keliana

That is rare wisdom, and well put I might add. Hence my wanting to know more about trans gendered folks (see, I'm learning)
:) .

Keliana, you used your words well there, and you would being doing people you speak with a favor by gracing them with that phrase from time to time.

[Solomon]

ok... so where in mindfinding's original question did he refer to any group other than shemales?

isn't it a bit discriminatory to tell that group ya'll find'em to be offensive just because they're doing something different?

and darkeyes, i don't argue against the fact that those laws exist, i argue that the way those laws are worded simply shifts the balance of discrimination.... they encourage discrimination against those that don't fit into the slots

and i do apologize if i'm not very clear with my questions... i feel as though i'm walking on bloody eggshells with this entire subject, but ya know what? no longer

if someone chooses to be offended, i'm sorry ya feel that way as that is not my intention

[darkeyes]

and wherever discrimination exists against those who do not fill in the slots Sol, we should be shouting long and hard to have something done, whether it be to make existing legislation better, or have new legislation to help them!

Dont decry acts which are aimed a eliminating discrimination as a knee jerk response... lets get it right and cover all groups, all people from she-males to people with two arses, and allow them the right to walk the planet unhindered by prejudice and bigotry!

[Long Duck Dong]

we only need to look at the forum to see what has happened..... most talk about trans gender / transsexual / * shemales * ( term used to define a person that has the features of a lady but no desire to remove the penis, a person that wants to live both lives )......has dried up....

the reason is simple.... as solomon posted.... its got to the point where it requires a good deal of knowledge in order to post about such people.... and as has been shown in another thread.... talk of sexual contact with trans people is classed as demeaning and dehumanising.... yet the same ruling is not applied to sexual contact with other groups

most chances of having a full and enlightening chat about sexual connection with or understanding of trans people, has simply died......

the main aspect is that its all about the * correct terms * and being non offensive...and thats fair enuf.... but most of the threads in the site, about trans people, are filled with posts about being non offensive and correct terms to use.....and so a valuable voice is falling silent.....thanks to be * pc correct *

[maxtor]

i have always had this secret fetish wanting to meed a nice attractive ts/tg/tv and possibly LTR if things turn out right. i would want the person to still have the manhood in their pants but be feminine looking and actiing. i like the idea of having a partner that looks and acts like a woman but also enjoy the extra stuff that they would bring to the relationship. i would like the cake and eat it too, literally. if there is any ts/tg/tv out there needing a partner and willing to give me a try then drop me a line and we will see where it goes. i will answer all emails.

[BreeIsMe]

Maxtor,
I think you are a nice guy and I know you are honestly trying to find out more about transexuals, etc. but "having the best of both worlds" and "having your cake and eating it too" are not concepts that are applicable to true transgendered/transexual people. We do not view ourselves as being in BOTH worlds; but in a confused world. For instance, I do not consider myself to have two things to offer; rather I am a woman, period. I may have some things right now that are considered male but I am not looking to use them and in fact, I would jump at the opportunity tomorrown or even later today! (if I could) to get rid of that part of me.
So for me to meet someone who wants "it all" That person doesn't want me because I am nothing more than a female person...,

Hard to understand, I know. but true.
Hope this makes some sense!!?

Bree



i have always had this secret fetish wanting to meed a nice attractive ts/tg/tv and possibly LTR if things turn out right. i would want the person to still have the manhood in their pants but be feminine looking and actiing. i like the idea of having a partner that looks and acts like a woman but also enjoy the extra stuff that they would bring to the relationship. i would like the cake and eat it too, literally. if there is any ts/tg/tv out there needing a partner and willing to give me a try then drop me a line and we will see where it goes. i will answer all emails.

[flexuality]

Maxtor,
I think you are a nice guy and I know you are honestly trying to find out more about transexuals, etc. but "having the best of both worlds" and "having your cake and eating it too" are not concepts that are applicable to true transgendered/transexual people. We do not view ourselves as being in BOTH worlds; but in a confused world. For instance, I do not consider myself to have two things to offer; rather I am a woman, period. I may have some things right now that are considered male but I am not looking to use them and in fact, I would jump at the opportunity tomorrown or even later today! (if I could) to get rid of that part of me.
So for me to meet someone who wants "it all" That person doesn't want me because I am nothing more than a female person...,

Hard to understand, I know. but true.
Hope this makes some sense!!?

Bree

No offense Bree....but this kind of reply is what confuses the shit outta me.

You seem like an interesting, nice person worth getting to know as a person...but, again no offense intended, you are not the kind of person that maxtor and mindfinding were referring to.

In my mind, this would be like someone asking if there are any lesbians in a certain area, and then having bisexual women jumping all over the poster, defending bisexuals and lecturing the poster on the differences and saying "how dare you call me a lesbian, they are scum." (I am not referring to you personally, Bree, just the gist of these threads)

When the truth would be that they weren't asking about biseuxals in the first place, they were asking about lesbians.

I see the same thing happening here.

I would think it would be advantagious to the trans community to acknowledge the other group of people that do refer to themselves as shemales or trannies, thereby making a distinction between that sector and the trans people that refer to themselves as male or female.

Personally, when I use the word shemale or tranny, I am not talking about you or DeafF2M or Frodo, etc. I am talking about the people who self-identify as shemale or tranny and I am by no means trying to be insulting to anyone.

I imagine that it would be very frustrating to have people constantly thinking that trans automatically means shemale or tranny, when in reality I think that 90% of people who use those terms are talking about people OTHER than trans people. They are, in fact, referring to shemales and trannies and NOT F2Ms or M2Fs.

Bree, in my mind you are a woman because that is what you have told us. You are not a shemale or a tranny cuz that is an entirely different thing.

I, for one, am not trying to lump all those groups together and I honestly believe that most people are not lumping those things together. To be honest, I think it is the reactive posts by some that actually end up lumping shemales, trannies and trans people as one and the same by insisting that we are being derogatory and insulting, when the truth is that we were never talking about trans people in the first place!

I hope this makes sense....and because I am NOT trying to be offensive, I am not going to apologize if anyone is offended by this.

[Long Duck Dong]

I love you flex, you have put in simple wording, what i have been trying to say.....people need to be aware that sometimes the usage of the * offensive * terms, are actually words directed at a specific group that * shelter * under the trans person umbrella, in the same way that not everybody under the LGBT umbrella is lesbian / gay / bi or trans





I would think it would be advantageous to the trans community to acknowledge the other group of people that do refer to themselves as shemales or trannies, thereby making a distinction between that sector and the trans people that refer to themselves as male or female.

Personally, when I use the word shemale or tranny, I am not talking about you or DeafF2M or Frodo, etc. I am talking about the people who self-identify as shemale or tranny and I am by no means trying to be insulting to anyone.

I imagine that it would be very frustrating to have people constantly thinking that trans automatically means shemale or tranny, when in reality I think that 90% of people who use those terms are talking about people OTHER than trans people. They are, in fact, referring to shemales and trannies and NOT F2Ms or M2Fs.

[DeafF2M]

Flex...

I have nothing against people who do identify as "she-male"... but, I've seen the term thrown around WAY too often when referring to MTFs. Men who want someone that looks like a woman but has a penis... are usually referring to someone who IS taking hormones and IS living life as a woman. This goes beyond simply cross-dressing and having a sexual life as a "woman.

This is to me, a stereotype that needs to be eliminated. It's not about being politically correct. I can't stand that term... to me, it's more about respect.

Those who call themselves "she-males"... I don't know why they favor that term, I really don't. I strongly feel it is dehumanizing and reeks of fetishist language. It's a sexual-based term and says really nothing about the person. It's like calling a woman an "it"

That's just my two cents. I have never understood why some people will identify as "she-male,"... and I will tell you this. I see it a lot more often by people who are trolling for sex than anything else. I rarely see it as a solid identity.. more of a tool to get laid.

It's like with me.. I'd never use "he/she" to refer to myself in order to get laid. It's not me.

I think the reason we do have such a knee-jerk reaction to posts like these is well, there's an awful lot of people who do not really understand the variances in gender identity and the complexity of our lives. As such, they use terms they are familiar with, after watching "tranny" porn. That's their "education" and it sucks. It's a common frustration of ours.. we are seeking terms that better define us and we have yet to come to an agreement on what language best works, that is positive, uplifting and personal.

[superyumboi]

Do they exist here?
Does anyone here have any friends from that life? If so, can you tell me how they interact with others? Social habits and so on.


yes! they're scary!!

20 feet tall with knifes as teeth and penis' as fingers(please reference the movie "Edward Penishands").

toss bread crumbs at them...but gently...gently...pat them on the head and they'll be your friend.

make any sudden movements, they shove your testes up your nostrils and slice your head off with their tail!

hope that helps.

[flexuality]

Flex...

I have nothing against people who do identify as "she-male"... but, I've seen the term thrown around WAY too often when referring to MTFs. Men who want someone that looks like a woman but has a penis... are usually referring to someone who IS taking hormones and IS living life as a woman. This goes beyond simply cross-dressing and having a sexual life as a "woman.

This is to me, a stereotype that needs to be eliminated. It's not about being politically correct. I can't stand that term... to me, it's more about respect.

Those who call themselves "she-males"... I don't know why they favor that term, I really don't. I strongly feel it is dehumanizing and reeks of fetishist language. It's a sexual-based term and says really nothing about the person. It's like calling a woman an "it"

That's just my two cents. I have never understood why some people will identify as "she-male,"... and I will tell you this. I see it a lot more often by people who are trolling for sex than anything else. I rarely see it as a solid identity.. more of a tool to get laid.

It's like with me.. I'd never use "he/she" to refer to myself in order to get laid. It's not me.

I think the reason we do have such a knee-jerk reaction to posts like these is well, there's an awful lot of people who do not really understand the variances in gender identity and the complexity of our lives. As such, they use terms they are familiar with, after watching "tranny" porn. That's their "education" and it sucks. It's a common frustration of ours.. we are seeking terms that better define us and we have yet to come to an agreement on what language best works, that is positive, uplifting and personal.

DeafF2M....I appreciate the non-attacking reply. :)

I agree that "shemale" is a strange word, and it is very true that most people's education in this area comes from porn....and it does suck.

I think my point was that most people using that term are NOT referring to F2M/M2F...for starters if their only education comes from porn, then they are probably not even aware that F2M/M2Fs as trans people even exist. I know I wasn't.

So when the trans people (some, not all) attack people for using the words shemale or tranny, the assumption gets made that F2M/M2F ARE the same as shemales/trannies and that they just don't like the words.

Does that make sense? They end up inadvertently sending the message "We are those people you see in porn, and we don't like to be called shemale or tranny".....rather than "We are NOT those people you see in porn."

[mindfinding]

yes! they're scary!!

20 feet tall with knifes as teeth and penis' as fingers(please reference the movie "Edward Penishands").

toss bread crumbs at them...but gently...gently...pat them on the head and they'll be your friend.

make any sudden movements, they shove your testes up your nostrils and slice your head off with their tail!

hope that helps.

cute :rolleyes:

[Long Duck Dong]

thats the way I am seeing it

a trans gender person that is going thru full transition, is a person that has made a choice to be a female / male

now a person that doesn't desire full transition has also made a decision...but do they seek to be classed as a female / female with a male aspect / male with a female appearance..

a F2M/M2F that seeks full transition is easy, they are simply male or female ( the final state of being ) but a person that only does half the transition can be classed as either gender ( tho most likely the full transition gender identity )... or they may seek to be classed as both....

now we have the full F2M / M2F, the TV/CD, the female impersonator, the drag queen....( I asked a few of my friends and they all feel the tv/cd, female impersonator and the drag queen are separate identities )

but when i asked about * shemales *... the response, was they were either in transition and pre op, they were * tryhard* hermaphrodites or they were simply freaks.....

that really got me thinking......aren't people allowed to be part male / female ??? do they have to fit a *image *......why must it be sexual .... why is it not allowed to be a form of body modding...

if females can get breast implants and males get penis enhancement, why can't people get body modding to appear female ??..

in essense a * shemale * is not a trans person, they are actually a body modder that wants the female appearance but not all the issues that the trans person face.....unfortunately, this is stepping on the toes of the trans * domain * .

*shemale * is a term that is wrongly applied to a group that it doesn't belong to and I fully agree there..... but to imply that * shemale * body modders are doing it for a sexual theme, is like saying that people get their breasts enhanced after pregnancy, for sexual reasons, when in fect it may well be for cosmetic purposes......

I do pose the question, are trans people trying to claim that shemales are in fact part of the trans community ( if so, give them the right to have the term * shemale * ) or are they trying to distance the trans community from shemale body modders but at the same time, not allowing the term * shemale * to be used in respects to the body modders, cos the trans community don't like the name......

[Scootertrash]

I am not from Canada, but I do know a few transgendered people.. I have never thought to call them anything other than.. Her or she in the case of the male to female transgendered person I know I also know a female impersonator he is a man and simply dresses as a woman, he does not claim to be trans anything..

I have never talked sex with them, cuz it's none of my damn business... but I know they are friends of mine..

The question was asked in a way that may offend some people, but I am sure that was not the intent... I to am curious about how they feel and how they live during the transition.

just my :2cents:

[Keliana]

People don't seem to understand the emotional struggles a transgender person goes through on a daily basis. The whole "shemale" topic is getting blown out of proportion.
Transsexuals don't like being depicted or being identified with being "shemale' because it mariginalizes them as unproductive members of society. Yes, some do go into sex work and call themselves "shemales" because of job discrimination and prejudices in society. For those who are sexually fascinated with "shemales" this only dimishes transsexuals to being seen as nothing more than sex objects.
Last night on 20/20, Barbara Walters did a show on transgendered kids. For those of you who are not familiar with what it is like growing up as a transgender person, I ask you view this http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3072518&page=1

Nearly one out of three transsexuals commit or attempt suicide. We need to realize how difficult it is for these people to go out day to day and just function.

Enough with the semantics, please!

[Cogent]

Are shemales and transexuals the same thing?

And if not
a) what's the difference?
b) don't shemales have a right to their own term?

So what does it matter what shemale's motvations are for
a) making themsevles into shemales?
(through cosmetics, hormones, implants or what have you)
b) calling themselves shemales

Moreover it is not the responsibility for people to understand the hardships that transgendered people go through every day... any more for people to understand all the difficulties that any group or individual go through... where do I begin...

You might put away your indignation and try some gentle education

[mindfinding]

Are shemales and transexuals the same thing?

And if not
a) what's the difference?
b) don't shemales have a right to their own term?

So what does it matter what shemale's motvations are for
a) making themsevles into shemales?
(through cosmetics, hormones, implants or what have you)
b) calling themselves shemales

Moreover it is not the responsibility for people to understand the hardships that transgendered people go through every day... any more for people to understand all the difficulties that any group or individual go through... where do I begin...

You might put away your indignation and try some gentle education

Re-read the thread, all of the answers are there. I was hear asking similar questions and received a world of info.

Cheers.

[Keliana]

Are shemales and transexuals the same thing?


Moreover it is not the responsibility for people to understand the hardships that transgendered people go through every day... any more for people to understand all the difficulties that any group or individual go through... where do I begin...

This is exactly what's wrong with the world.....no COMPASSION and there are so many people who don't want to take on the responsibility to understand others who are different.


You might put away your indignation and try some gentle education.

wondering.....who's reply was indignant????

[Herbwoman39]

This is exactly what's wrong with the world.....no COMPASSION and there are so many people who don't want to take on the responsibility to understand others who are different.



Keliana, please understand that as human beings we are very limited in how we communicate. Let's face it, words are inadequate. My personal feeling as I read through this thread is that people are simply trying to understand so that we can avoid errors in semantics and BE more compassionate because of that learning.

I'm sorry if teaching us is causing you discomfort. Some of us are just a little slow in the comprehension department (meaning me). It just seems like such a complicated issue that it takes some time to understand.

[Long Duck Dong]

cogent

a shemale is a person that is in a female form with a penis.... they may be naturally born that way, or had their body modded ( surgical or hormone ) to take that form... that can be intersex ( born with genetic uniqueness ) or personal desire
a shemale can make a conscious choice to become a female with a penis....and that is the form that they wish to have
the term shemale is being regarded as offensive to the trans and intersex communities..... and shemales are being regarded as sexual toys or freaks...
now...a shemale is still human, still have feelings and emotions, and would get hurt by the fact they are told that they are offensive to the trans community, cos they use a term to define themselves that the trans community doesn't like
shemale and intersex form god/desses have existed for centuries.......and today some religions still have shemale/ intersex god/desses
the reason I use the term shemale / intersex..... is that different people need to realise that some of the gods were * born * intersex, some changed during immortal life, hence shemale


a trans person is a person that has made a choice to change their bodies to match the inner person, hence we have the M2F and F2M trans person....
they feel that the body is not suited to the person within and struggle with a conflict that is mental and emotion
the trans people can be born fully one gender in appearance / another gender in inside, intersex or shemale natured ( shemale natured is the desire to be as a female, but part way thru transition, lose the desire to have their genitals changed )
trans people are mainly identified by their desire to fully become one gender... surgery is a needed part of that, but for many trans people the sheer costs are beyond their abilities...and they become trapped.....

the main different between a shemale and a trans person is in a lot of cases the shemale likes the appearance of the female, the sexual acts of the male, and the ability to have the two.... the trans person wants to become one complete person and not dual natured

[flexuality]

Transsexuals don't like being depicted or being identified with being "shemale' because it mariginalizes them as unproductive members of society. Yes, some do go into sex work and call themselves "shemales" because of job discrimination and prejudices in society. For those who are sexually fascinated with "shemales" this only dimishes transsexuals to being seen as nothing more than sex objects.


So....according to your post, you see this group of people referred to as "Shemales" (please note they are people too) as "unproductive members of society" and "nothing more than sex objects."

And you say WE lack compassion?

You also state that "there are so many people who don't want to take on the responsibility to understand others who are different."

Isn't that a bit like the pot calling the kettle black?

Maybe you have a lot of compassion for the trans community....but your posts certainly lack any compassion for anyone outside of that community.

I used to have a genuine desire to learn more about trans people....but you seem to have elected yourself as "spokesperson" for that sector of society, and quite frankly it's like bashing my head against the wall trying to understand anything anymore.

Your posts say the same thing over and over with such defensiveness that quite frankly, what's the point of even asking questions anymore?

It's a shame really....there was a great opportunity here at one time to learn and understand......

[mindfinding]

Maybe you have a lot of compassion for the trans community....but your posts certainly lack any compassion for anyone outside of that community.

I used to have a genuine desire to learn more about trans people....but you seem to have elected yourself as "spokesperson" for that sector of society, and quite frankly it's like bashing my head against the wall trying to understand anything anymore.

Your posts say the same thing over and over with such defensiveness that quite frankly, what's the point of even asking questions anymore?

Ouch.

Not enough that you'd have to deal with growing up not being accepted, but then as adult being pegged as a hater in a place you think your sheltered....that would hurt so much.

If she began coming off as abrasive I could understand why. She is repeating herself constantly on a thread she shouldn't have to be repeating on......, to people telling her how to title what they themselves DO NOT have.

[TorontoGuy2007]

it's frustrating that there seems to be so many different definitions and terminologies out there. but i guess the bottom line is that the is really no one way to label all people who identify somehow in either the trans community or intrasex community.

if you want to learn some "general" facts about transsexuals (whether they be pre-op, post-op, or non-op) i think it would be safe to say that most transsexuals struggle emotionally as they are living in a body they don't feel truly represents who they are, plus they are living in a world where society seems to want everyone to be "normal" and thus transsexuals struggle to accept the fact that they don't fit this societal standard. with that in mind, one definition i don't like to see applied to transsexuals is "disorder".. that implies that we are not normal or not in order..

i recently accepted my transsexualism, but i had both my family doctor and psychiatrist fooled. as far are they are concerned, there is nothing physically or mentally wrong with me.. so in their eyes, there is nothing disordered about me.

and this is what makes it so difficult. transsexualism is a state of mind. it's not something you can prove with a blood test or anything like that.. and even in 2007, we live in a world that doesn't seem to want to accept that transsexualism is for real. we struggle to find the help we need and the access to timely and affordable councilling and medical services that we require...

[TorontoGuy2007]

i really like these wikipedia articles. i think they do a great job explaining in detail what the difference between transgender and transsexualism are, the issues we face, the myths that are out there, etc...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexual

[flexuality]

Ouch.

Not enough that you'd have to deal with growing up not being accepted, but then as adult being pegged as a hater in a place you think your sheltered....that would hurt so much.

Exactly my point...for everyone...not just trans....

That is how *I* feel.....and you're right....it hurts....it hurts more than you can imagine......

[BreeIsMe]

Flex,
I am not offended by what you are saying (at least how I think I understand it)
I think the bottom line is that there are no good uses for labels as people, for the most part, don't fit them and most people's concepts of what the labels mean is different. You sound enlightened in that you understand that not everyone is the same. That isn't true in many other circles.
I do agree with your analysis....I am female, period
It also could be true that I could be a bisexual transexual female...
what a concept
that is, I could still like both sexes but am transexual and bi at the same time.
I suppose one could also be a gay FTM transexual, etc.
It can be quite complicated.

The best is to leave the labels at the door and just talk to POEPLE rather than labels.

Bree


No offense Bree....but this kind of reply is what confuses the shit outta me.

You seem like an interesting, nice person worth getting to know as a person...but, again no offense intended, you are not the kind of person that maxtor and mindfinding were referring to.

In my mind, this would be like someone asking if there are any lesbians in a certain area, and then having bisexual women jumping all over the poster, defending bisexuals and lecturing the poster on the differences and saying "how dare you call me a lesbian, they are scum." (I am not referring to you personally, Bree, just the gist of these threads)

When the truth would be that they weren't asking about biseuxals in the first place, they were asking about lesbians.

I see the same thing happening here.

I would think it would be advantagious to the trans community to acknowledge the other group of people that do refer to themselves as shemales or trannies, thereby making a distinction between that sector and the trans people that refer to themselves as male or female.

Personally, when I use the word shemale or tranny, I am not talking about you or DeafF2M or Frodo, etc. I am talking about the people who self-identify as shemale or tranny and I am by no means trying to be insulting to anyone.

I imagine that it would be very frustrating to have people constantly thinking that trans automatically means shemale or tranny, when in reality I think that 90% of people who use those terms are talking about people OTHER than trans people. They are, in fact, referring to shemales and trannies and NOT F2Ms or M2Fs.

Bree, in my mind you are a woman because that is what you have told us. You are not a shemale or a tranny cuz that is an entirely different thing.

I, for one, am not trying to lump all those groups together and I honestly believe that most people are not lumping those things together. To be honest, I think it is the reactive posts by some that actually end up lumping shemales, trannies and trans people as one and the same by insisting that we are being derogatory and insulting, when the truth is that we were never talking about trans people in the first place!

I hope this makes sense....and because I am NOT trying to be offensive, I am not going to apologize if anyone is offended by this.

[BreeIsMe]

Couldn't have said it better!

Bravo, Deaf!!



Flex...

Those who call themselves "she-males"... I don't know why they favor that term, I really don't. I strongly feel it is dehumanizing and reeks of fetishist language. It's a sexual-based term and says really nothing about the person. It's like calling a woman an "it"

It's like with me.. I'd never use "he/she" to refer to myself in order to get laid. It's not me.

I think the reason we do have such a knee-jerk reaction to posts like these is well, there's an awful lot of people who do not really understand the variances in gender identity and the complexity of our lives. As such, they use terms they are familiar with, after watching "tranny" porn. That's their "education" and it sucks. It's a common frustration of ours.. we are seeking terms that better define us and we have yet to come to an agreement on what language best works, that is positive, uplifting and personal.

[BreeIsMe]

Duck,
I guess, to me, your "sex" which people are referring to as "shemale" is more determined by your inner "self" rather than your outward appearance. Transgendered people who are born "female" on the inside but "male" on the outside spend a great deal of their life trying to make the two images become one.
Whether one "completes" the transition and has SRS, etc. is a personal preference and in the transgendered world it is not thought of as "the end" or the part that "fulfills" rather a final stroke in the masterpiece and one that may not be desired.

There are people (and I will avoid labels) who don't want to be fully one sex or the other and want (for the lack of a better term) "functioning" parts of both. They want to function as a male with male genitalia that has an erectiton and orgasms and have breasts, etc. This is confusing to me as I would like nothing better than to get rid of that extra equipment. It is almost emarassing to me.
These people often use the term "shemales" for themselves and others. I don't understand this thinking and I don't want to be confused with this feeling.

I know this is confusing (at least I know I am confused) but I am not trying to be argumentative. I simply want others to understand that the"trans world" as many refer to it isn't what many maike it out to be.

I think the common thread is the same as any other group. We simply want respect and understanding which many here have given us.....

One final thought: I would try to refrain from referring to any one as "freaks and if I were to guess, women who get breast implants at any time in their life, do so to enhance their sexal appearance and feeling of well-being as a female which I think is the same as "cosmetic" that you say is different...

Just my thoughts...

Bree


thats the way I am seeing it

but when i asked about * shemales *... the response, was they were either in transition and pre op, they were * tryhard* hermaphrodites or they were simply freaks.....

that really got me thinking......aren't people allowed to be part male / female ??? do they have to fit a *image *......why must it be sexual .... why is it not allowed to be a form of body modding...

if females can get breast implants and males get penis enhancement, why can't people get body modding to appear female ??..

in essense a * shemale * is not a trans person, they are actually a body modder that wants the female appearance but not all the issues that the trans person face.....unfortunately, this is stepping on the toes of the trans * domain * .

*shemale * is a term that is wrongly applied to a group that it doesn't belong to and I fully agree there..... but to imply that * shemale * body modders are doing it for a sexual theme, is like saying that people get their breasts enhanced after pregnancy, for sexual reasons, when in fect it may well be for cosmetic purposes......

I do pose the question, are trans people trying to claim that shemales are in fact part of the trans community ( if so, give them the right to have the term * shemale * ) or are they trying to distance the trans community from shemale body modders but at the same time, not allowing the term * shemale * to be used in respects to the body modders, cos the trans community don't like the name......

[BreeIsMe]

Keliana,
THANK YOU; THANK YOU ; THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
I hope everyone is listening!!!


Bree


People don't seem to understand the emotional struggles a transgender person goes through on a daily basis. The whole "shemale" topic is getting blown out of proportion.
Transsexuals don't like being depicted or being identified with being "shemale' because it mariginalizes them as unproductive members of society. Yes, some do go into sex work and call themselves "shemales" because of job discrimination and prejudices in society. For those who are sexually fascinated with "shemales" this only dimishes transsexuals to being seen as nothing more than sex objects.
Last night on 20/20, Barbara Walters did a show on transgendered kids. For those of you who are not familiar with what it is like growing up as a transgender person, I ask you view this http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3072518&page=1

Nearly one out of three transsexuals commit or attempt suicide. We need to realize how difficult it is for these people to go out day to day and just function.

Enough with the semantics, please!

[BreeIsMe]

You've got to be kidding (I hope)....


Bree

PS I really don't get the impression that anyone was being indignant excpet perhaps...........





Moreover it is not the responsibility for people to understand the hardships that transgendered people go through every day... any more for people to understand all the difficulties that any group or individual go through... where do I begin...

You might put away your indignation and try some gentle education

[BreeIsMe]

I do think that everything has deteriorated into name calling... This is not productive

I don't think Keliana is saying that she thinks "shemales" are all unproductive members of society. I think that many (not Keliana specifically) think of "shemales" as somewhat less than upstanding citiizens.... and therefore being referred to as such opens one up to extreme predjudice

I do agree with Mind that we need to stop bashing everyone. This is (or at least should be) a place of refuge for us whether bi or trans bi or trans or whatever.

I would suggest if you WANT to learn more about what it is like to be transgendered (no matter what flavor of transgendered that is) then keep and open mind, a gentle tone and stay tuned.

If you don't...then simply tune out...leave the thread to those who are honestly interested in learning...

Simple as that..
Bree





So....according to your post, you see this group of people referred to as "Shemales" (please note they are people too) as "unproductive members of society" and "nothing more than sex objects."

And you say WE lack compassion?

You also state that "there are so many people who don't want to take on the responsibility to understand others who are different."

Isn't that a bit like the pot calling the kettle black?

Maybe you have a lot of compassion for the trans community....but your posts certainly lack any compassion for anyone outside of that community.

I used to have a genuine desire to learn more about trans people....but you seem to have elected yourself as "spokesperson" for that sector of society, and quite frankly it's like bashing my head against the wall trying to understand anything anymore.

Your posts say the same thing over and over with such defensiveness that quite frankly, what's the point of even asking questions anymore?

It's a shame really....there was a great opportunity here at one time to learn and understand......

[BreeIsMe]

I know this feeling...
I had it too for a long time
HOWEVER, I do feel that it really is a "disorder"
Let's face it if we were not disordered we would have matching physical and emotional genders.
I think that transexuality is a biologically based "disorder" where either hormones or receptors in specific areas of the body, be it brain, body, etc. produce a response that is not uniform (ie., female in one place and male in another). Therefore, I do disagree with this

Transgendered people are also struggling so to be seen as completely normal is not realistic.

Also, reality is that many transgendered people want help in terms of insurance, etc. paying for psychological counselling, hormones, surgery, etc. and this would not be possible if there were no "disorder" since insurance doesn't pay for "treatment" of normal conditions....

Finally, "normal" is most easily defined as what "95%" of people do. and I guess by that definition, transgendered people are not entirely "normal" but then neither was Albert Einstein, Ghandi, Martin Luther King, and others. But many of them were also treated poorly..

Just a final thought!!
and NOW I am done with my comments (I can hear the celebration!)

Bree




[QUOTE= one definition i don't like to see applied to transsexuals is "disorder".. that implies that we are not normal or not in order..

[/QUOTE]

[Keliana]

I'm sorry to see that I've been misunderstood by a few who posted here.

I never said that I saw shemales in such a way, I did say that many in society sees them that way.

I have nothing but love and respect for any gender (or sexual oriented) variant person. How could I not? I am bisexual and I am an intersexed woman with xxy chromosomes who has lived with this my whole life. I've been to too many funerals of those who could not deal with the pressures of society, the despair they felt because of society's "indifference" with respect to being objectified as sexual deviants.

If you ever have the opportunity, look into the eyes of a transgendered child.

As my being a "spokesperson" for these people? Well all I can say is I am able to empathize.

Thank you for listening and peace to you all,

Keliana

[Long Duck Dong]

it appears that a number of people are placing shemales as part of the trans community, including some of the trans community, then nailing them for using the term she male

why is it so hard to for people to simply tell about shemales and trans people and the differences WITHOUT having to put in the crap like its dehumanising and degrading and offensive... that is creating 90% of the issue

sure, people don't like being misunderstood, or having assumptions made....

if I was to ask you about you, then I am asking about YOU, not what label is correct or what names you don't like or you don't like people to use...I am asking about YOU as a person.....

all I have heard, is trans people this, trans people that, yadda yadda yadda... yet no shemale natured person has posted regarding where they stand, so either they don't exist in the site, or they just wanna be left alone.... and judging by the constant * you must refer to this person by this term cos this person have this issue and that person doesn't like this said .....*

anyways, i managed to get feedback from some shemale people.....
their response to the threads that I showed them in the entirety ...

" yeah, thats not surprising.... the transsexual /transgender community want control over the aspects of anything to do with transition.. yet they can't accept or acknowledge that a lot of the shemales in porn sites are transsexual/transgender people making enough money for their ops "

" why can't the trans community just accept we exist and stop trying to * run us out of town * "

" ... the transperson community can't handle the fact that people love us and not just as sex objects....."

"...... appearances, darling, simply appearances.... the fact that us shemales are happy with our bodies, is something the transsexual / transgender can't handle...."

" .... without our support in the transsexual/transgender community.... their numbers drop drastically, they need our support but they don't want to accept ...."

[Solomon]

LDD, thank you for talking with people that do identify as shemale!

truthfully i'm really suspecting that this entire thread is in such an uproar because of the way that people percieve the sex trade industry itself

of course the sex trade does play on that much like the tobacco companies play on the scare adverts.... which would probably account in no small way for the huge revenues that they enjoy... but that's another matter entirely lol

[Long Duck Dong]

lol solomon

came across something very interesting..... the first usage of the word shemale, was in a movie starring a hermaphrodite....the first movie starring trans people under the term shemale, appeared 4 years later.... owing to the large number of trans people in movies, the term shemale become connected to trans people, thru their involvement in the porn industry

a lot of movies about the third sex, starred trans people.....yet the term third sex /gender was used to define intersex / hermaphrodites, not the trans people

trans people were later brought into the porn movie scene as they were more common then fully developed hermaphrodites

the worlds first F2M porn star, buck angel....has never had the penile construction surgery

[DeafF2M]

Hey, LDD... Buck Angel is not the first FTM porn star. The first one I ever saw was a guy named Chase Ryder and he committed suicide sometime later, after making three films.

There's another FTM also breaking his way into the porn industry, named Diesel.

Regarding the terms "shemale"... as you once said, there has been noone here who IDs as shemale to explain why that term is used, so maybe we ought to simply drop the subject.

I ought to add that I don't think anyone in the trans community wants to turn away those who are shemale... a great many transpeople have been forced to find work as sex workers because of the difficulties in finding regular work. Many, many, MANY people have been discriminated against in the workforce -- lost jobs, unable to find a new one...

I have nothing bad to say about those people.. it takes a whole new level of bravery to do what they do. That said.. I think on a social level, we try to keep the TERM shemale out of the mix because it mixes sexuality with gender identity.

We, as a whole see our sexuality as something completely separate from our gender identity. Being a man is WHO I am... Who I fuck is an entirely different story. I can be a man and be gay, bi or straight. One has no influence over the other.

I'm bi, but I know many gay FTMs... I also know a bunch of straight FTMs.

'nuff said. LOL Hugs to everybody.

[Long Duck Dong]

lol deafF2M... buck angel CLAIMS to be the first F2M porn star

but if you read the wiki article on him and add your info then its easy to see how things are not what they are claimed

buck angels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_Angel)

now, buck claims to be something but it appears buck is not what they claim....

so the question is raised....is buck angel a *true* F2M natured person.... or a person cashing in at the expense of genuine F2M tans people... and using the term F2M as a cash cow

now I see the trans in this site, as genuine people...they are struggling with and working thru a differcult aspect of life.....and people like buck angel, could be helping give a false impression of trans people

[flexuality]

Interesting fellow, that Buck Angel.....had to look seein as ya mentioned it lol! :tong:

I did find a youtube thing on him....but my blasted sound won't work for youtube for some reason.....anyway...it appeared to be a documentary kind of thing.....he seemed to be talking about what he went through growing up ....but I hesitate to post the link, cuz I don't know what he was saying!

He almost seemed to give another way to look at the whole "tranny" (no offense intended) and transsexual confusion....even tho I couldn't hear what the vid was saying, I came away thinking that he presented himself as "this is what I AM (the human side and the struggle), and this (porn) is what I DO and they are not the same.

Now if I could just get the sound to work......argh!

[DeafF2M]

Buck Angel probably does claim he is the first FTM in porn.... and I think I know why. But, the fact remains, he was not the first.

Chase Ryder was sold as an Intersexed person or a hermanprodite, not as an FTM... the more I looked at his films though, the more I knew he was FTM, not an intersexed person. There have been several people on my email lists who knew him... If he is intersexed in some way I don't know. But, I think it was the porn industry at the time -- they didn't know what to call him, so they stuck a label on him and well... it stuck.

By the way, LDD... Buck Angel is a bona-fide FTM. I'm not sure why you're asking if he's for real??

[Cogent]

Okay... If
The term "shemales" offends some trans people who are not shemales but want to speak for them, and

We don't have any shemales to speak for themselves...

Then maybe we can agree to call shemales CHICKS WITH DICKS and clearly delineate this from transgendered, transsexuals, cross-dressers, or trans-subtantiates.Okay?

And then maybe we can sew up this thread, so to speak

[Long Duck Dong]

lol deafF2M...

I am not implying that buck angel is not for real.... I am saying that people seeing him may get confused......

the term F2M implies that a person has changed from a F2M..... but looking at buck they would see a male with a female sexual ability....
now the thing is that buck is classed as a female to male...yet is clearly no fully male or female.....

the same aspect applies to a M2F.... it implies that the person has changed from male to female

but if you look at the porn industry, its portraying trans people in a light that they aren't

seeing buck as a F2M... the average person, not understanding trans nature, would start to apply the ideas that buck is in the natural state for a F2M and not a state of transition

using the porn terms for M2F, we have the *normal person * then the * shemale * then the trans person.... and the shemale becomes the person in transition
using the porn terms for F2M, we have the * normal person * then the F2M ....and there is no middle * section to include the different stages

so what I am saying is that in my eyes, buck angel thru their actions is helping fuel the confusion surrounding trans people....

as a medium for the public, the porn industry has the greatest power of influence and understanding due to the huge market
by using * false * marketing, they are creating the impression that buck angel is a F2M that has transitioned, and not transitioning .....

*normal * people, shemales and trans are seen as seperate groups....tho people are confusing the shemales with the trans aspect.....
by removing the word * shemale * as a valid group.... the trans community are giving the impression that a shemale body form is the actual form of a fully transitioned M2F....as she males make up the larger aspect of trans porn....
if shemales are changed and marketed as M2F, it creates a wrong impression and more misunderstanding for the trans community

[Solomon]

there is one point to all of this that i keep noticing over and over again... i think there's alot of people that have some issues to get over when it comes to the 'porn industry'

quite frankly the 'porn industry' is NOT there to teach anybody anything.... just like any other movie, show, or magazine, or website... it's for entertainment only, or more realistically to make money by providing entertainment value.... which according to the dollars, entertainment is alot more valuable to most people than education lol!

the lack of acurate portrayals is a Hollywood and Advertisement thing... NOT just a 'porn industry' thing

could you imagine a Superman movie where Clark Kent just always remains Clark Kent?? what the hell would anyone need popcorn for? we'd all need amphetamines by the handful to stay awake! lol!

and yet when they use x-rays to examine for broken bones or cancer, i don't hear anybody screaming bloody murder over being dehumanized, or that x-rays aren't portrayed correctly..... i don't hear anybody shouting that we hafta use an airplane to fly, or that we need kevlar to stop bullets....

and yet all of these things are very obviously not accurate portrayals of people

[BreeIsMe]

I am going to make one further comment and then sign off this thread....

First, Clark Kent turning into "Superman" with x-ray vision, etc, would not be accepted as anything but fantasy by nearly all. There is a BIG difference between fantasy for entertainment and the phrase "chicks with dicks" Frankly, this is extremely offensive to me. WHy? Well, I would suggest that anyone who is interested in the answer to that question should first find someone who is transgendered (in some way, whether transexual, intersexed, "shemale" or whatever) and get to know that person, their situation, the walls put up in front of them, their pain, and understand how "shemales" or "chicks with dicks" portrayed in the porn industry affects peoples' attitudes (just like this thread), making the lives of trans individuals even harder than it already is. Then (and only then) would it make sense to comment meaningfully in a future thread like this...

In case anyone wants to debate this challenge, I will not be reading this thread anymore and you will have to PM me..

Bree





could you imagine a Superman movie where Clark Kent just always remains Clark Kent?? what the hell would anyone need popcorn for? we'd all need amphetamines by the handful to stay awake! lol!

and yet when they use x-rays to examine for broken bones or cancer, i don't hear anybody screaming bloody murder over being dehumanized, or that x-rays aren't portrayed correctly..... i don't hear anybody shouting that we hafta use an airplane to fly, or that we need kevlar to stop bullets....

and yet all of these things are very obviously not accurate portrayals of people

[DeafF2M]

LDD, i'm going to agree with a lot of what you said about how porn is marketed. There's a lot of misconception about transpeople of ALL types based on the terminology used in porn.

I want to say one thing tho... there are a lot of FTMs out there who choose NOT to have lower surgery and feel that whatever is in their pants has nothing to do with how much of a man they are. Buck, for example takes great pride in his masculinity -- he's been on hormones for a long time and has had chest surgery. He chose to keep his genitals intact. That doesn't make him any less than a man, just because he doesn't have a dick and balls. I'm just like him. My genitals are still the original equipment.

My point is... a lot of us transition so that we can look like the men and women we are; what's between our legs is not always a part of that goal. The percentage of people who actually go for lower surgery is still very small, due to the high cost and surgical skill. While MTF genital surgery has come a LONG way and is pretty much perfected, FTM genital surgery has a tremendously long way to go before I'd be willing to shell out over $50,000 for surgery.


Solomon,

Comparing porn to Clark Kent was a bit of an exaggeration. Clark Kent is a fictional character. The people who get involved in porn are REAL people. The people who watch them are watching REAL people have sex.

Regardless, there are so many people who only get their education on trans issues from ... PORN. The terms they use on porn are the exact same terms I see with all the idiots who are trolling for transpeople for sex. "White man looking for chick with a dick"

Anyone looking at Craig's List's "casual encounters" section is gonna see a lot of that trashy talk. Thing is... I even hear that with casual conversation.

I was with an MTF once when someone flat out asked her if she was a shemale, or a chick with a dick. She said that was disrespectful.. he said, "Well, what do I call you?" Her response... "a woman."

Porn is not responsible for one's social awareness, true, but not too many people know where else to learn the proper terms to address someone by, unless they're on a forum like this, or in a setting where they can attend a workshop given by transpeople.

[Solomon]

Solomon,

Comparing porn to Clark Kent was a bit of an exaggeration. Clark Kent is a fictional character. The people who get involved in porn are REAL people. The people who watch them are watching REAL people have sex.

Regardless, there are so many people who only get their education on trans issues from ... PORN. The terms they use on porn are the exact same terms I see with all the idiots who are trolling for transpeople for sex. "White man looking for chick with a dick"

Anyone looking at Craig's List's "casual encounters" section is gonna see a lot of that trashy talk. Thing is... I even hear that with casual conversation.

I was with an MTF once when someone flat out asked her if she was a shemale, or a chick with a dick. She said that was disrespectful.. he said, "Well, what do I call you?" Her response... "a woman."

Porn is not responsible for one's social awareness, true, but not too many people know where else to learn the proper terms to address someone by, unless they're on a forum like this, or in a setting where they can attend a workshop given by transpeople.

yeah... comparing Clark Kent to porn is a bit of an exaggeration.... but it's still the same principle, Christopher Reeve was a real person as well, and on the screen his character was portraying a real journalist, 'course not very accurately as everyone knows that he would have been very much candy coating that profession big time, but he did get the basics i think....

just as porn uses real people to portray fictional characters having sex that most people regard as fantasy, even though the sex is real, the script of the sex generally just happens like that in fantasy

anyways, you hit the head on the nail... there's really nowhere convenient for people to learn about transgendered people except for porn... and i believe i've read in this thread at some point that there's not even a term that's agreed upon that would be acceptable to the transgendered community..... so i'm still at a loss for why the terms in question are so bloody offensive.... especially since offense is NOT the intent!

and truthfully i think the only real argument here about the terms in question is because of the link to porn....

i think what i find offensive the most is that i happen to enjoy porn, and yet simply because this 'industry' has coined a term, i'm feeling as though i need to defend my choice to entertainment

i thought the church was the only ones that i would expect to put me in that position???

when someone asks me to refer to them in a specific manner, that's after i've had a chance to say something to that person and then i can call the person by name if that's what they want.... but that's not gonna happen if i inadvertently offend them!

what are most people 'spose to do up to that point?

[DeafF2M]

Sol, man...

No one is asking you to stop enjoying porn. And no one is asking you to help find the terminology that we will all agree on.

Terms, labels, personal identities are such a sensitive topic. In the trans community, it's even more so, because there are so many possible ways to just BE who you are, whether you were born female and now living as male, or you're stuck between two genders, not knowing exactly how to define who you are.

It's a struggle with us, too, so you're right. But still, ask before assuming a label for someone. Safest bet in the world. Just know that whatever label one chooses may not be the label another one chooses. I know it's confusing and confounding as hell, especially when you grew up only knowing two genders... man and woman.

Anyways, back to porn. I love porn, I watch it all the time. I'm deaf, so I don't hear what dialogue is used in the films.. I'm watching action.. hot, sweaty action.

I just don't recommend it for any trans 101 training you might need. :-)

[flexuality]

Anyways, back to porn. I love porn, I watch it all the time. I'm deaf, so I don't hear what dialogue is used in the films.. I'm watching action.. hot, sweaty action.

I just don't recommend it for any trans 101 training you might need. :-)

Exactly!!! :tong:

That's why I sit here and scratching my head and saying "Why do the trans people get so offended when I am not even talking about them??" (if I use a porn term)

I've already figured out that porn isn't there to be educational for anyone! lol!

Oh and btw....you're not missing anything not being able to hear porn.....do they HAVE dialogue?? lol!! :bigrin:

[Keliana]

Exactly!!! :tong:

That's why I sit here and scratching my head and saying "Why do the trans people get so offended when I am not even talking about them??" (if I use a porn term)

I've already figured out that porn isn't there to be educational for anyone! lol!

Oh and btw....you're not missing anything not being able to hear porn.....do they HAVE dialogue?? lol!! :bigrin:

All I can say is people (in general) associate trans-people with porn. Trans people have grown wary of discussions about porn and trans/shemales being discussed collectively in a topic.

[Long Duck Dong]

I can understand that keliana

people tend to look at the trans / shemale / porn aspect and they fail to see the person.....thats something I notice a lot

its like the label removes the feeling, thinking, caring person behind the label

interestly enuf I have watched people over the years..... the only group that is seen as normal are the heterosexuals as they don't use a label to define themselves, but any group that does ( gay/les/bi/trans/intersex etc ) is seen as a sexual object, not a person

I have watched porn.. I don't find any enjoyment in it, but from a scientific / medical point of view, it was very informative for me, as I was able to view the differences of body structure between intersex, trans and * normal * people...
then when i spoke with intersex / trans people, when they talked about body changes, I was able to understand better, what they were referring to....lol
I don't have any other resource that gives me such a wide range of info...apart from surgery pics and articles

sad that so many people see porn as simply a sexual / visual thing to be enjoyed or abhorred....it can also teach us so much about people and their bodies, if its viewed with the interest of learning