Is It Cheating?

[Cogent]

How many of you are in a marriage or long term partnership where your spouse is unwilling or unable to be truly intimate with you... and unwilling (or unable) to discuss it candidly and clearly? Or willing to acknowdge your sexual direction?

Do you feel that each person has a right to a be fulfilled sexually as well as emotionally (intimacy?). And if it's not going to happen with your partner, then what? Do you feel that you have been cheated out of sex?

Of course there are lots of people who "cheat" on their spouses, with out consideration of them and without trying to work at it.

But for those how have tried to work at it, and found for whatever reason, their spouse not able to address the issue... then is so called cheating the best way to save a marriage?

This is assuming of course, that there is enough between you, including kids or shared life that is worth saving?

What are your stories? What's your point of view?

[DiamondDog]

If you're in a closed/exclusive relationship (or at least one person thinks that you're closed/exclusive with them only) and you're having sex with other people besides that person it's cheating.

That being said, if I were in such a position I'd either tell the person that I was going to have sex/relationships with other people besides them or I'd just get a divorce/annulment.

[deletetacount123]

How many of you are in a marriage or long term partnership where your spouse is unwilling or unable to be truly intimate with you... and unwilling (or unable) to discuss it candidly and clearly? Or willing to acknowdge your sexual direction?

Do you feel that each person has a right to a be fulfilled sexually as well as emotionally (intimacy?). And if it's not going to happen with your partner, then what? Do you feel that you have been cheated out of sex?

Of course there are lots of people who "cheat" on their spouses, with out consideration of them and without trying to work at it.

But for those how have tried to work at it, and found for whatever reason, their spouse not able to address the issue... then is so called cheating the best way to save a marriage?

This is assuming of course, that there is enough between you, including kids or shared life that is worth saving?

What are your stories? What's your point of view?


I was married for 3 years and my ex, who decided after we married didn't have to be intimate. His idea of sex was a 2 min quickie "bang bang" then hes done and wants to play his computer games.
I was often left feeling like I was some personal hooker to let him have a quickie intercourse with me cause he NEVER wanted kissing, touching, oral or anything else.... I told him over and over things *I* would like him to do to me and he said ok but didn't mean it and didn't care.

Then one day he just hurt my feelings really bad and didn't care and I started to wonder if he only married me so he was "married" (hes 4 years older than me.. 1975) and to have safe "one night stands"
Cause thats what it felt like.

I kept trying to talk to him about intimate things and he never wanted to listen to it. I would then see sex scenes in movies and go "I want that."
lol One day in early 2006, I broke down... I couldn't handle this anymore... *I* want the intimate feeling in a relationship.. the feeling my friends had, family members... etc.
He didn't.

I talked to my cousin then my sister. Both of them had not so nice things to say about him lol But they helped me think things out and all.

I would NEVER EVER EVER Cheat on anyone.... Im not like that. But I was getting miserable and shutting down :( I knew I had to do something but every time I tried to have a serious converstation with my ex he didn't want to hear it and walked off to play his computer games.

I just couldn't do this anymore.... I wasn't raised to be in an loveless life cause all my life Ive been around couples in love, being hugged and a kiss on the cheek, the "i love yous" and so on.

Not ONCE did he get me a card for anything... not once did he say I love you , then it came to the point i could CLEARLY see that he was using my being deaf as a excuse to not have to communicate with me.
When I told him I wanted him to talk to me as much as he was talking to his friends on voice chat he called me being unfair!!! I was like "What?!?!"

I tried to talk to him and he said I was being greedy and selfish and immature?!?!

I suggested we seek help from a marriage colunser and he said hes not wasting money to talk to someone about our problems....
I said "Uh thats thier JOB. They are paid to listen to peoples problems and try to help work it out." But nope. he wasn;t interested so we got a divorce.

Then he had the nerve to TELL EVERYONE HE KNOWS that I cheated on him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh god.... cheating?? Im sooooo against that, everyone I know knows what I think about cheaters and that they are cowards lol

Anyway Im much happier without him now. When I meet someone new, this person has to have a romantic side too cause I want romantic in my life! :)
Now Im also gonna do what Ive always wanted to do... date a girl :)

Tasha

[yoyo4u]

Living together with someone successfully=longtime isn't going to happen without sacrifice..

It would be unfair to put the other one on a pedestal and fulfill even their wildest dreams, or forcing the me-me-me option onto them.

Talking to and with them will certainly help to debug the situation, but listening and accepting their point of views is equally important.

Unless living with the significant other is not important to you.

Do I have the right you ask?

Let's see...

I feel I have the right to have a brand new Jaguar every month!
I also feel that I have the right not to go to work every day!
Who can deny any of these rights?

To make all this happen I'd probably have to rob a bank (cheating).

I guess most everybody does what they think is best for them, but my observation is that everybody deserves what they have.

Since I am an apprentice wiseman I am ready to accept criticim for these thoughts.

yoyo :cool:

[jedinudist]

A person's right to be fulfilled sexually as well as emotionally is totally overridden by their vows, both stated and implied, to their spouse or partner.

If a person is in a closed relationship and has sex outside of that relationship, it is cheating.

[Herbwoman39]

Any sexual act outside the marriage without the knowledge and consent of the other person is cheating. Period. End of statement.

I feel for you. I really do. I was married to a man who, towards the end ofour marriage, only had sex with me twice in two years. No, it wasn't on our anniversary either.

He wouldn't seek help, he just kept telling me that he wasn't interested. I can live without sex. I swear my virginity grew back in that time frame. But I can live without sex. The thing is, he couldn't. He just didn't want sex with *me*. I found out later that he had invited someone to visit while I was at work and our preschool children were at home.

Infidelity will ruin a marriage faster than anything else. If you want to stay married, get help. Even if your spouse won't participate, YOU go and get the help you need.

Good luck. Don't do anything you'll regret later.

[innaminka]

Cheating is such a hard word. It reeks of finality; of no redress other than humiliation/anger.

How many people are married? That's how many different forms of partnerships there are.
Everyone would like to think that there is a temp[late for marriage - open/closed. Str8/Bi, etc etc. That the options are there in black and white.

I rather believe that the dynamics within every marriage/relationship are different. There are different levels of tolerance, of love, of affection, of sex, of commitment given and expected.
Again etc etc.!

You ask a question "Is this cheating?"

Every person/couple has to work that out for themselves. To give a definitive "one size fits all answer" I feel is far too simplistic. :)

[biwords]

A person's right to be fulfilled sexually as well as emotionally is totally overridden by their vows, both stated and implied, to their spouse or partner.

But if the spouse or partner wants to hold the person to the letter of the agreement, and is indifferent to whether the person's sexual and emotional needs are being met, then the spouse or partner has in effect repudiated the relationship. If the contract isn't being honored by one party, why should the other be bound to honor it? Obligations are reciprocal.

[Herbwoman39]

But if the spouse or partner wants to hold the person to the letter of the agreement, and is indifferent to whether the person's sexual and emotional needs are being met, then the spouse or partner has in effect repudiated the relationship. If the contract isn't being honored by one party, why should the other be bound to honor it? Obligations are reciprocal.

That's an excellent point. I've honestly never thought about it that way. Even though it may be difficult, do you feel that the spouse who is not fulfilling their end of the arrangement should be informed that the first person is now seeking to have their needs met outside the marriage bounds then?

[Michael623]

Cheating is such a hard word. It reeks of finality; of no redress other than humiliation/anger.

How many people are married? That's how many different forms of partnerships there are.
Everyone would like to think that there is a temp[late for marriage - open/closed. Str8/Bi, etc etc. That the options are there in black and white.

I rather believe that the dynamics within every marriage/relationship are different. There are different levels of tolerance, of love, of affection, of sex, of commitment given and expected.
Again etc etc.!

You ask a question "Is this cheating?"

Every person/couple has to work that out for themselves. To give a definitive "one size fits all answer" I feel is far too simplistic. :)


I agree with Inna. Gawd, I wish it were that simple, but it isn't. Just when you think you have it all figured out then life deals you something new.

[TorontoGuy2007]

it is very unfortunate when one partner loses interest in sexual intimacy. yes i do think you have indeed been cheated or ripped off here. you signed up for a marriage that included love and sex, and if your partner is giving you neither, then you certainly have a right to be upset. having said that, i don't think cheating will solve your problems. divorce seems to be the best case.. time for you to move on with your life. don't stay married on paper or for other reasons.. i never understand why people stay in relationships that are clearly beyond resolution.

[jedinudist]

That's an excellent point. I've honestly never thought about it that way. Even though it may be difficult, do you feel that the spouse who is not fulfilling their end of the arrangement should be informed that the first person is now seeking to have their needs met outside the marriage bounds then?


I think that if one is in a marriage or a partnership where they feel that strongly that their own needs are not being met and are not likely to be either, then it is incumbent upon them to talk it over with their spouse or partner. Perhaps the spouse or partner will be agreeable to the idea of an open relationship. If not, then cheating is STILL CHEATING. If you are that unhappy and honestly do not foresee any improvement on the horizon, then it is time to consider taking the honorable steps towards dissolving the relationship in question.

[Dr.StrangeLove]

Yes its cheating...if you have to lie about it, and go behind your spouses back, its cheating, its that simple.

If your spouse is unwilling to engage sexually and unwilling to talk about it, you're at an impasse, but that doesn't mean you're not breaking your vow if you cheat on her. If you and your wife can't be honest with each other and you need to go behind her back to be sexually fulfilled, your relationship is dying and you need to choose whether you are willing and able to face the work it will take to make it healthy. If you can't do that then what's the point of staying together? You aren't teaching your kids anything valuable by staying in an dysfunctional marriage, or by cheating on your wife.

For what its worth, this must be a really hard situation for you, I hope you can find a solution to your problem.

[flexuality]

I agree with innaminka that the word "cheating" is a confusing word.

I also agree with Dr.StrangeLove, that it is the LYING and going behind your spouse's back that better defines "cheating."

So I would have to say that lying and going behind your partner's back in a marriage or long term relationship would not be the way to go at all.

Your post is a bit vague as to what the unwillingness and/or inability is, so it's tricky to answer that question.

Communication is key in a marriage or long term relationship and it is also vital to know HOW to communicate with someone who is different than you are, especially between men and women...they just don't "speak the same language!"

John Gray MD's book "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus" is and EXCELLENT book for communication, even if one is not in a relationship. :)

As for sexual fullfillment and emotional intimacy being a "right".....I've just never looked at it that way. In my mind, a "right" is something one can demand....and I would personally never want those things demanded from me. I would much rather willingly share that. But that's just my opinion on "rights"....

[Long Duck Dong]

I agree with innaminka that the word "cheating" is a confusing word.

lol flex, I think too many people think that cheating in a relationship is as clear cut as cheating at cards lol

lol the day that sexual fulfillment is a right in marriage, is the day that I refuse to ever marry......

maybe its just me, but to me it appears like sexual fulfillment is a excuse to * rape * ya partner if they are not in the mood and it happens so much

the number of people I hear, that use the excuse that they are having affairs cos their partner is not meeting their sexual needs, is overwhelming and its the greatest load of BS that I have heard

its like saying that my partner doesn't cook food the way I like, so I am gonna go get takeaways every night and I don't care about the impact on the family, as my needs are more important

a marriage is for better or worse, if people can't take the worse, what the fuck are they doing in the marriage, cheating on their partners and making piss poor excuses, when the best thing they can do, is either be honest, or suffer in silence

in my 6 year relationship with dangerous unicorn.... I put up with verbal and emotional abuse, constant affairs, lies, the works......she constantly bitched about hating sex..... yet 9+ affairs later I finally snapped and showed her the door....I accepted the fact she didn't want sex... we had sex about 10 times in 6 years..... but her affairs were constantly sex filled....
yet I put up with it.... cos I decided it was for better or worse... and I got the worse deal ever.....but I showed many people that it was in my nature to love, care and forgive....and dangerous unicorn showed that it was in her nature to treat guys like shit... cos it was in her interests to make sure she was happy and fulfilled .......and thats the same statement that people that are cheating, use.... its all about their sexual fulfillment..... and what about their partners trust, love and respect ????... thats clearly not as important as coming

as a lil fact, lol 83% of bisexual cheaters that use the excuse of needing sexual fulfillment, are males.....and I use cheating in the context of deliberately going behind their partners backs for sex, and denying any aspect of their sexuality or sexual activities to their partners

[biwords]

That's an excellent point. I've honestly never thought about it that way. Even though it may be difficult, do you feel that the spouse who is not fulfilling their end of the arrangement should be informed that the first person is now seeking to have their needs met outside the marriage bounds then?

Yes, it's much better to be up-front about it. And I assume that the first person will have made a good-faith effort to see if some agreement, probably involving compromise, is workable.

[NakedBike]

I've been married for 16 years and with my wife for 19 going on 20 years. In that period of time we've gone from raging hormones and 6 times a day to a haitus of as little as bi-monthly. As to whose sex drive is on the back burner it is usually my wife's as mine is fairly consistent. At one point about 5 years ago I was frustrated beyond belief as I felt -gee this sucks- but we really needed to talk and work out the reasons for why things were the way they were. I'm sure "cheating" would have fixed the sex thing and in so doing would have destroyed the essence and basis of our relationship of one of honesty toward one another. This, forgetting any marriage "vows" is simply a basis on how I wish to interact with others around me. In simple terms if you value honesty above your "johnson" you need to have a discussion that will deal with the issues that surround intimacy in your relationship-if everything else is good than either you choose to stay in a "sexless" relationship or choose to restruction the existing into an open relationship or dissolve the "marriage" and accept a "platonic" relationship with your mate. I feel that on some level no matter who anyone is that is not entirely self-centered will discover that the lying and cheating steals a part of their soul and the ones that they are lying and cheating on. I'm not a saint I discovered this the hard way-not during my marriage but thankfully before.

[Cogent]

Thanks for the stimulating range of opinions.

I see some people take a more black and white apporach and while others are more nuanced.

In many cases, if the couple cannot be open and honest about the situation, the relationship should like be brought to an end.

But sometimes, this is not right either. In some cases, there are things people can't face becuase of fears or earlier emotional damage... it's not their fault. There are more dimensions of trust and relationship than sex and erotic intimacy. And there can be other types of intimacy. Is it right to destroy this through some commitment to HONESTY?

I think that in a marriage or other partnership, there is an obligation on both parties... it's sometimes as imperfect people we are not able to live up to them (this is not an excuse for shallow people to do what ever). But when we are hurt by our partners... what should we do?

Dan Savage sex columnist said sometimes its better to "cheat" and save a marriage than not cheat and destroy it.

We'll that might the subject of another thread.

[mindfinding]

Cheating on your spouse is pretty simple. Find someone your not married to and f***. Thats cheating. It is very simple.

But........It can most certainly be a 2 way street. Put a steak in front of a starving man and tell him not to eat it. Same scenario, put am man who has no intimacy in front of a woman that wants him.

Both parties in marriage have obligations to uphold. I'm not judging, but if an open marriage is the answer, then that works for you. Just not for me. But if both parties are open, communicate, and meet each others needs, many battle will never be waged in the bed.

[anne27]

"... then is so called cheating the best way to save a marriage?"

Cheating to save a marriage, now there's a unique excuse to use.

Unless your partner knows about it, it's being unfaithful. It can be rationalized in so many ways, but that does not change what it is.

If you want to go outside the marriage, then that is your decision, but don't add a noble sentiment onto it. :2cents:

[mindfinding]

anne27 ,your sooooo right. :cool:

Nobility has no place in that statement, and if you really believe you can cheat to save a marriage, you believe you can punch holes in a boat to make it float.

Communication is the key. Talk to your mate.

[Vuarra]

Ironically, this is the main reason why I came to this site.

When is it cheating? Is it the act of sapphic lust, or is it the emotions behind it? Is it the touch, or the desire to be touched?

And is it still cheating when the cuckholded partner is well aware of the sexual tryst?

[Rogue]

This is a really tough call. To me marriage should make you happy, and sexual fullfillment is one of those, there is nothing worse than having a partner that is not equal to your sex drive, and it can put allot of tension in a relationship.

Sleeping with someone behind your partners back, knowing that if they found out they would be upset, is cheating.

I personally don't believe in marriage, it's an invention that makes allot of people very unhappy.

[flexuality]

Ironically, this is the main reason why I came to this site.

When is it cheating? Is it the act of sapphic lust, or is it the emotions behind it? Is it the touch, or the desire to be touched?

And is it still cheating when the cuckholded partner is well aware of the sexual tryst?

When is it cheating?

When it involves dishonesty, lying and a breaking of trust. That's what hurts. When you thought your relationship was one way and you find out it's not.

[deletetacount123]

When is it cheating?

When it involves dishonesty, lying and a breaking of trust. That's what hurts. When you thought your relationship was one way and you find out it's not.

Yep. :)
My ex actually told me AFTER we got married that he didn't trust ANYONE. Not even his wife!!

When i first met him I thought he was different than the other guys I knew but I was wrong. :(

Oh well.... Im glad things are done and over. If he wants someone to be married to and someone to have safe "one night stands" with he can find someone else.

I want romantic in relationships where theres commuication and trust too.

Tasha

[Herbwoman39]

The question becomes what kind of relationship do you have if there isn't trust involved? If she finds out (and she will) that you're going outside the marriage, then that will destroy what you're trying to save by seeking to fill your needs outside the marriage. If there's no trust, there is no marriage.

[biwords]

Naked Bike says its a choice between honesty and your 'johnson', and Long Duck says it's a choice between 'coming' and keeping their partner's trust, love and respect. Both these statements reflect a pretty reductive view of sex. If coming were the only issue, why take on the risk and expense of an affair instead of just masturbing? Or why so people cheat on spouses who DO provide sex?

In fact people have affairs because their partners are unable or unwilling to meet all of their sexual or romantic needs. Those needs (yes, even in men!) often have an emotional component. That's why the wronged spouse feels so hurt -- after all, if the other woman/man were just a masturbatory aid, she/he would be no more threatening than an inflatable rubber doll or a vibrator. It wouldn't generally be something to end a marriage over.

Long Duck goes so far as to recommend 'suffering in silence' as a possible alternative to cheating. I don't see the good of visiting a lifetime of suffering on oneself. Unless one is truly a saint, this can only diminish the love one feels for one's partner, especially if the partner COULD meet such needs but chooses not to do so. For example, if you say "Dear, I understand your decision not to have sex with me anymore, and for my part I'll accept 40 years of celibacy or masturbation", what are you really doing? You're conspiring with your spouse to inflict cruelty on yourself. I would call that an immoral rather than a moral action. You're surrendering control of the relationship to someone who doesn't love you enough to try to meet your needs. That's not virtuous, it's stupid...and probably immoral as well, since you're rewarding someone for callous and selfish behaviour.

I'm not arguing for a blank cheque (as we Canadians spell it) to commit adultery. I just can't agree with those who say that it's always inexcusable and imply that those who commit it are necessarily morally inferior. When people with such inflexible convictions and, often, self-righteousness? get into positions of power, massive repression and suffering follow. That suggests, to me at least, that something was askew in those convictions all along.

I like and respect LongDuck, but in another forum thread (if I recall correctly) he said he would welcome death, naturally a very disturbing statement. I hope he was just having a really, really bad day. But might there, just possibly, be any connection between such a statement and a philosophy which legitimizes 'suffering in silence' as a permanent mode of living?

[Solomon]

being a husband that's done the cheating thing and have been working with flex ever since with the issues that've lead to the incidents.... i can say with confidence that it is possible to repair anything within a marriage as long as both have even just a glimmer of desire to do so

but it's a rough road... then again so are the alternatives

i believe biwords has a point in that it's never that a spouse just up and cheats... there's always more to the picture than meets the eye, and it always takes two to tango

LDD has a point too... there really is no excuse for it, just like there's no excuse to have unrealistic expectations of a spouse

i believe that when two people choose to marry then they do indeed become one... regardless of what they're thinking

that's a tough one to choke down, but if more people would choke it down then perhaps the rate of divorce would become less, and the decision to marry would be more carefully considered?

flex and i've definately gone through hell an back again several times over, and i'd do it again in a heartbeat.... even though there have been times when it seemed like a good idea to just call it quits... but how many people just wind up with the same problems over an over again anyways?

as far as cheating goes... from everything i've learned or picked up along this rocky road all i can say is that whatever both parties of a couple agrees to is cheating then that would be cheating

[Long Duck Dong]

lol biwords,

most of the work I do, is dealing with counseling work, therapy etc... and I have become very jaded and critical of people now....and I view the words * i love you * as one of the greatest lies told.....

there are two types of people, * ones that say * i love you *( to the best of my ability ) and the ones that say * I love you ( as long as I am getting what I want )
read back thru the thread and its easy to tell what group is what

now for me, sex is fleeting.... love is long term.....and for many people, they balance the two... I love you ( as long as I am sexually happy )
I have seen so many lives destroyed thru a persons apparently life threatening lack of sexual happiness...
its like saying that unless i get takeaways twice a week, I can't be happy and my mental state of mind and health are at risk

I have had *good * relationships and bad relationships.... the bad taught me about the nature of people and so did the good.....
but in respects to sex.... I have always regarded it as a blessing, not a right
.... if it was a right of marriage, why is it not detailed in the marriage vows ??
* do you promise to honour and obey, love and cherish, preform oral and take anal, have a MMF/FFM once a month, watch porn ....* lol

why is it not part of a divorce proceeding ??? * the plaintiff filed for divorce on the grounds that his wife will not fuck him with a strap on while he sucks off another guy *

*sighs* there are some incredible marriages / relationships out there.... and the people are simple true to themselves and their partners.....

but for me, sitting in a room listening to people blatantly lie to me about the state of the their relationship, has worn me down.... I just wanna say to people * hey stop lying, cut the crap, stop the BS and just admit, you want ya partner to be a sexual freak and fulfill your fantasises.....*

I am tired of living on painkillers.....20 years of constant pain and painkillers gets at ya after a while, and thats the main reason why I just wanna lay down and not wake up..... and that human nature has finally totally pissed me off to the point that I wonder why the hell I thought that being a counsellor was helping people.... in most cases, its just shifting the blame around for peoples actions
and yeah I am tired of seeing people sit in front of me and blatantly lie about their lives and their feelings during counselling sessions
hence thats why I made the remark about welcoming death... for me its like a extended sunday morning sleep in.....

[Cogent]

I am glad that the thoughtful replies keep coming.

What it shows is not only different points of view but different experiences.

It's very hard to understand the specifics of other people's lives, emotions and personalities. Judging is easy, understanding is hard. But once we underdstand more, judgements may change.

By the way, in my case. I have tried to raise the issue with my wife many many times, she refuses to discuss sex, period. The whole topic is to threatening to her... and what is threatening is not my feelings, it is hers. But what can you do. Patience and compassion are important... but... so are other things

[Solomon]

LDD... i woulda thought that you would take people lying about the state of their marriage to you to be a compliment, as in they're putting their best foot forward kinda thing?

[Moto1]

the number of people I hear, that use the excuse that they are having affairs cos their partner is not meeting their sexual needs, is overwhelming and its the greatest load of BS that I have heard

its like saying that my partner doesn't cook food the way I like, so I am gonna go get takeaways every night and I don't care about the impact on the family, as my needs are more important

Although in general I agree with you, it is actually a need of the body to have sex. It is both an addiction if had past a certain regularity, and a necessity for proper hormonal balance. Different people are dependent on it in different quantities, but without it everyone shall to some extent suffer.

I see the people who felt so sex starved that they HAD to have an affair as victims, the same as the victim of a heroin addiction may steal to support the habit. They didn't want to lose their marriage for whatever reason; but they had a NEED that they had to fulfil.

Now of course that is the minority of those having an affair, most being in a much less lamentable position and so much less deserving of pity.


I was once one of those less lamentable people. I cheated on a sweet, loving woman who didn't deserve it. Yes we weren't right for each other, yes we would break up within the week for an entirely different reason, but nevertheless it was the worst thing I have ever done. I have never forgiven myself for it.



The only time I could support cheating as the 'right' path, is when the trust and love in a relationship or marriage is already gone. When it is over in all but name. In that case I would think that emotionally it is over, so either partner could seek out love elsewhere. You shouldn't be trapped in a loveless relationship. However still one should consider the moral implications of it before acting.

[Solomon]

Although in general I agree with you, it is actually a need of the body to have sex.

uh huh... and how do you explain that autistics don't seem to have any need of sex?

[darkeyes]

If outside of the exclusive relationship, any other deep emotional or sexual relationship is cheating. I dont say this judgementally for I am no angel in this regard and make no excuses for what I have done. But cheating it is and however we paper over it and make excuses to ourselves, cheating it will always remain... worst of all, it is not only ourselves who must live with memory, heartbreak and consequences of our cheating.

[meteast chick]

I'll freely admit, I cheated...ONCE. This with a boyfriend I had when I was 18, and he was so put off with my deep emotional connection with him that he wanted me to sleep with someone else so that I wasn't so caught up with him. Well, don't say it if you don't mean it...

In my marriage of 6(now almost 7 cuz it's not quite over) years, I was honest about my sexuality from the beginning. Towards the end it started eating at me (no pun intended lol). I talked to him about needing to know what it was like. Of course he was okay with a threesome, but when I said I wanted to try it myself, without him, first, he said that was cheating and he'd leave me if I did, so it never happened. I went to a counsellor with the honest to god idea of trying to save our marriage. After our first session, he told me not to waste my time, that it was obvious I had made up my mind and he wasn't going to let him down easy for me. This was news to me! The fact is, he was right. And I understood my ex's concern about me going mano y mano with another woman. He knew that it would be easy for me to get attached, to want it more, to fall in love, and leave him.

So when a coworker and I started talking about dating, etc, I was upfront about not wanting a relationship. Can't we just go out, watch a movie, have a little fun later and NOT say "I love you"? I suppose we're more fwb, but I'm okay with that, and it gives me the option of continuing to look at what's out there.

Well, that's my story and I'm stickin to it!
luv and kisses,
xoxoxoxoxoxo
meteast

[lickitall]

My ex was this way. She just did not like sex any more...we did much counseling and everything to save the marriage. She had many occassions told me to "just go get it somewhere else" and "leave me alone"
After 11 years of trying, I got out...divorced.
I cheated during the end a little. But that is not right. It did not fix anything.
Only riddled myself with guilt.
The best way is to cut and run..so to speak.

[shirell]

How many of you folks on here are having relations behind your spouses back? If they don't know about it and you have to lie,sneak around and get others to cover for you that's cheating.
I'm not judging anybody but I myself was fortunate enough to be married to a good man and accepts my bisexuality.He feels left out that I'm having sex with women and now wants to watch.LOL! I can't win myself. I told him what I was feeling and said that the heart wants what it wants.It's been a couple of months since I told him and he resents that he is left out. I offered other options like he have a relationship on the side but he only wants me! Swinging was also mentioned but he only wants me and no other man to touch me. We atleast are communicating about our needs to each other.We have a beautiful family together,we have three children. I couldn't hurt my family by selfishly taking care of my needs by lying and sneaking around.Honesty is the best policy. If you can't be honest maybe you shouldn't be married.Sometimes you have to let the chips fall where they may and have faith that your spouse loves you enough to stay with you. :flag1:

[shirell]

How many of you folks on here are having relations behind your spouses back? If they don't know about it and you have to lie,sneak around and get others to cover for you that's cheating.
I'm not judging anybody but I myself was fortunate enough to be married to a good man and accepts my bisexuality.He feels left out that I'm having sex with women and now wants to watch.LOL! I can't win myself. I told him what I was feeling and said that the heart wants what it wants.It's been a couple of months since I told him and he resents that he is left out. I offered other options like he have a relationship on the side but he only wants me! Swinging was also mentioned but he only wants me and no other man to touch me. We atleast are communicating about our needs to each other.We have a beautiful family together,we have three children. I couldn't hurt my family by selfishly taking care of my needs by lying and sneaking around.Honesty is the best policy. If you can't be honest maybe you shouldn't be married.Sometimes you have to let the chips fall where they may and have faith that your spouse loves you enough to stay with you. :flag1:[/QUOTE]

[imtiffanys]

This forum does not need a paragraph of words to describe cheating..

Cheating is cheating.. No matter who it's with.. where it takes place..or when it took place.. The intention is there and the thoughts remain..If your unhappy and thinking about cheating..You should just go ahead and do it.. Thinking leads to Action.. and an Action always has a equal Reaction.. So If your thinking about cheating or have or had already acted on it... Remember At least you got yours huh... No matter who it hurt...right?

Cheating is a cowards way out... :2cents:

[Moto1]

uh huh... and how do you explain that autistics don't seem to have any need of sex?

Many autistic people don't seem to have a drive for sex, agreed. However it still causes chemical imbalances.

Although you are correct, quite often there is no noticeable effect.

[welickit]

A cheat is a cheat, PERIOD. If you cheat on your spouse what in the hell do you have to offer anyone else??? More lies and cheating? Maybe STD's or AIDS? You want to play like you are single do her a favor and get a divorce first.

[Cogent]

A cheat is a cheat, PERIOD. If you cheat on your spouse what in the hell do you have to offer anyone else??? More lies and cheating? Maybe STD's or AIDS? You want to play like you are single do her a favor and get a divorce first.

Wow feels like a pretty Talabanic and angry response.

Do you think that the only alternative to absolute "faithfulness" is "playing like your are single?"

Do you feel that there is nothing that two people might offer each other who are married to others (for example) that is genuine and worthwhile? Maybe the two cheaters can offer each other comformt and understanding, sine they may both be in similar difficult circumstances?

Are there not safe sex practices that people can follow whether they are cheating or merely having a relationship? So the cheating may not be the wquivelant to AIDS and STDs

And what makes you so sure that anyone who might "cheat" even once should do their spouse a favour and get a divorce.

Is sex the only dimension of value in a relatoinship and how do you measure what people do for each other?

Is everyone built the same? And does one moral law fit all people and all contexts?

Well there may be more questions.

[krrptyc]

The pendulum swings:
My wife has completely lost any desire for sex. In fact, she admits that she does not initiate hugging or any other close contact because I might think she wants sex. When I want it, I can have it but it is very obvious that it is an unpleasant choir for her. In fact regardless of how much lube we use, she grimaces in pain. Sex with her has become unpleasant for me. I think, “what she doesn’t know won’t hurt her. You just want to find a suck buddy, It’s not like you are going to go have a romantic tryst with a woman.”

And the pendulum swings:

We work on a home improvement project together and have good time cracking jokes and talking about what else we would like to do. We share other burdens of life and lean on each other. She tolerates doing the lions share of the housework. I work late or something she asks where I was and she knows I will tell her the truth. And I think, “there’s no way I could live with the guilt. I could live with sucking another man off and not telling her but not with telling her a lie about where I was or what I was doing.

And the pendulum swings:

I’m not sure what I’m going to do, I’m starting to think about not so safe things strangers. “If I work it right, I won’t have to lie. Maybe I should just ask her if it would be Okay if I had a suck buddy.”

And the pendulum swings:

Yeah right! Just say “Excuse me, but sex with you is unpleasant and I was wondering if you would mind if I got together with that nice couple down the street.”

And the pendulum keeps swinging.

[biwords]

Wow feels like a pretty Talabanic and angry response.

Good word, Talibanic. I do find something of that flavour in some of the responses here.

[Solomon]

Many autistic people don't seem to have a drive for sex, agreed. However it still causes chemical imbalances.

Although you are correct, quite often there is no noticeable effect.

fair enough... i have read somewhere on a women's health thing where the ph balance is affected with not having sex...

and i think for guys, if there wasn't masturbation we'd all just blow up or blow up the world outta frustration lol

however, it's not like we've gotta have sex with other people in order to fill a biological need :cool:

[Solomon]

The pendulum swings:
My wife has completely lost any desire for sex. In fact, she admits that she does not initiate hugging or any other close contact because I might think she wants sex. When I want it, I can have it but it is very obvious that it is an unpleasant choir for her. In fact regardless of how much lube we use, she grimaces in pain. Sex with her has become unpleasant for me. I think, “what she doesn’t know won’t hurt her. You just want to find a suck buddy, It’s not like you are going to go have a romantic tryst with a woman.”

And the pendulum swings:

We work on a home improvement project together and have good time cracking jokes and talking about what else we would like to do. We share other burdens of life and lean on each other. She tolerates doing the lions share of the housework. I work late or something she asks where I was and she knows I will tell her the truth. And I think, “there’s no way I could live with the guilt. I could live with sucking another man off and not telling her but not with telling her a lie about where I was or what I was doing.

And the pendulum swings:

I’m not sure what I’m going to do, I’m starting to think about not so safe things strangers. “If I work it right, I won’t have to lie. Maybe I should just ask her if it would be Okay if I had a suck buddy.”

And the pendulum swings:

Yeah right! Just say “Excuse me, but sex with you is unpleasant and I was wondering if you would mind if I got together with that nice couple down the street.”

And the pendulum keeps swinging.

has she been to see a doctor about her loss of interest in sex? there might be a way to help her with it medically

[BreeIsMe]

I don't know what you should call it but I can explain my situation::::
I am married but when I have tried to bring up my bi and transgendered side my significant other turns off and claims that what I tell her is "gay" This, obviously, is from someone who was raised by a strict catholic family and who is very religious and cannot understand someone not be standard, run-of-the-mill heterosexual. I have suppressed myself for a long time and tried to make others happy which is one side of my nature but I am also biologically put together as a female and am not happy unless somehow I feel that I am living as the person I am (a woman). So I have done things (like take hormones and dress, voice coaching, and even considered breast implants (something that I have even mentioned to her) but she will not allow me to include her in this process. So if I do something without her, is that "cheating"....
not really

she has chosen her road, I have chosen mine

we could still continue as a same-sex couple but I don't know where we will be in the future. It is a hard adjustment for many couples and to be honest, one that very few survive.

If I meet a man and we make love as a man and woman that is not exactly like if I were a man still and met a woman (as a substitute for a wife) and made love...that would definitely be cheating..

Hard to say, many questions but not enough answers....

Bree





How many of you are in a marriage or long term partnership where your spouse is unwilling or unable to be truly intimate with you... and unwilling (or unable) to discuss it candidly and clearly? Or willing to acknowdge your sexual direction?

Do you feel that each person has a right to a be fulfilled sexually as well as emotionally (intimacy?). And if it's not going to happen with your partner, then what? Do you feel that you have been cheated out of sex?

Of course there are lots of people who "cheat" on their spouses, with out consideration of them and without trying to work at it.

But for those how have tried to work at it, and found for whatever reason, their spouse not able to address the issue... then is so called cheating the best way to save a marriage?

This is assuming of course, that there is enough between you, including kids or shared life that is worth saving?

What are your stories? What's your point of view?

[krrptyc]

has she been to see a doctor about her loss of interest in sex? there might be a way to help her with it medically
Yes, she saw a doctor a few years back. The Dr. said testosterone might help but proceeded with a long list of some rather serious possible side effects that scared us both. I don't think it's right to ask her to put her health jeopardy to make our sex life better.

[Dr.StrangeLove]

Wow feels like a pretty Talabanic and angry response.

Do you think that the only alternative to absolute "faithfulness" is "playing like your are single?"

Do you feel that there is nothing that two people might offer each other who are married to others (for example) that is genuine and worthwhile? Maybe the two cheaters can offer each other comformt and understanding, sine they may both be in similar difficult circumstances?

Are there not safe sex practices that people can follow whether they are cheating or merely having a relationship? So the cheating may not be the wquivelant to AIDS and STDs

And what makes you so sure that anyone who might "cheat" even once should do their spouse a favour and get a divorce.

Is sex the only dimension of value in a relatoinship and how do you measure what people do for each other?

Is everyone built the same? And does one moral law fit all people and all contexts?

Well there may be more questions.

Personally, I think there are a lot of ways someone can rationalize cheating...but the bottom line is if you are going behind your spouses back to have sex because you can't even talk to her about your relationship problems, you are doing something harmful to both her and your relationship. How much can you love your wife if you are willing to lie to her face about who you are? Trust, honesty and communication are everything about marriage, if you trample those things the marriage becomes nothing but a mask.

I think its fine to have sex outside your primary relationship, and there are many needs that secondary relationships can fulfull, but without honesty, the primary relationship is a farse. Stay married or don't that doesn't make your relationship any less dead.

There are safER sex practices, but as long as you are having physical contact, you are at risk, and subjecting your wife to those risks without her consent (that is if you ever plan to sleep with her again.) It is foolhardy to think that sex can be totally safe...ever heard of condoms breaking? You can get warts even with use of a condom and even if they aren't expressing on your partner. Some formes of genital warts cause cervical cancer in women. There are real reasons that cheating is morally questionable.

You are hiding behind a false moral ambiguity...you made a promise to your wife and now you are breaking that promise both by sleeping with someone else when you know it would hurt her and then by lying to her about it...there is no moral ambiguity here. But you've already made your choice regardless of what I say, you just want people here to help you rationalize it.

[Cogent]

In my case, Wife also made promise to me. That promise has been broken. Now what. Do you break the whole relationship? I think that there can be versions of Sophie's choice in this too, where both choices cause harm.

Also,there are ways of safer sex, e.g. mutual mastrubation.. or getting tested that can be responsible




Personally, I think there are a lot of ways someone can rationalize cheating...but the bottom line is if you are going behind your spouses back to have sex because you can't even talk to her about your relationship problems, you are doing something harmful to both her and your relationship. How much can you love your wife if you are willing to lie to her face about who you are? Trust, honesty and communication are everything about marriage, if you trample those things the marriage becomes nothing but a mask.

I think its fine to have sex outside your primary relationship, and there are many needs that secondary relationships can fulfull, but without honesty, the primary relationship is a farse. Stay married or don't that doesn't make your relationship any less dead.

There are safER sex practices, but as long as you are having physical contact, you are at risk, and subjecting your wife to those risks without her consent (that is if you ever plan to sleep with her again.) It is foolhardy to think that sex can be totally safe...ever heard of condoms breaking? You can get warts even with use of a condom and even if they aren't expressing on your partner. Some formes of genital warts cause cervical cancer in women. There are real reasons that cheating is morally questionable.

You are hiding behind a false moral ambiguity...you made a promise to your wife and now you are breaking that promise both by sleeping with someone else when you know it would hurt her and then by lying to her about it...there is no moral ambiguity here. But you've already made your choice regardless of what I say, you just want people here to help you rationalize it.

[Dr.StrangeLove]

In my case, Wife also made promise to me. That promise has been broken. Now what. Do you break the whole relationship? I think that there can be versions of Sophie's choice in this too, where both choices cause harm.

Also,there are ways of safer sex, e.g. mutual mastrubation.. or getting tested that can be responsible

Sure...if you mutually masterbate while you wait the six months to confirm both partner's HIV status, you can be relatively sure you won't get sick...but will you really uphold this standard, dp you really think the partners you're cheating with will be that comitted to you? There is no all out way to stay safe...sex carries risks, you can reduce them but they are always there...you can get herpes from kissing, or HIV for that matter. Subjecting your spouse to any non-consentual risk is pretty abhorent if you ask me, regardless of how small the chances are.

Did you're wife really promise you a lifetime of fulfilling sex? I don't really think getting married entitles anybody to a lifetime of sexual satisfaction, sex isn't addressed in the wedding vows. And no-sex doesn't mean you get a free pass to lie and sneak behind your spouse. Most couples who are together long enough experience some kind of sexual lull, its the drawback to being in a long-term monogamous relationship. Those lulls can only be overcome with work. The thing about healthy, functional marriages is that both partners remain engaged and work with each other to move past this kind of problem. It sucks for you that she has disengaged sexually, but what you're doing is equal or worse...you're disengaging from the relationship and lying to her in order to have sex with someone else. Did you ever consider that maybe she doesn't want to have sex because she has never felt sexually satisfied? You may be more responsible for your relationship's sexual dysfunction than you've considered, even if you blame her.

The real reason you're cheating on your wife is because you and she are both too afraid to face the problems that have arisen between the two of you. I'm not even saying that you shouldn't seek sex with someone else, but if you won't face your problem honestly then you're marriage is just a big game of pretend. Acting like this is sophies choice, as though you've been forced to either stay in a no-sex dysfunctional marriage, or cheat on your wife is just how you're rationalizing what you want to do; in reality you have more choices than that...the right choice is to force your wife to either talk about sex, go to a therapist or whatever, or give her an ultimatum. At least tell her that you are going to start sleeping with someone else if nothing changes. let her know how bad its gotten. If you hide your dissatisfaction, you aren't even giving her a chance to make the problem better.

[erotix]

Let's unpack some of what you said

First: you are wrong to assume that I am cheating on my wife. Although I am considering it, hence my ad

Second: I have taken her to therapy... where she sat silent. I also have many, many times over the years raised the issues ... which she have found threatening

Third: It is not an issue of not being sexually satisfied. beleive me I have tried to explore this with her and given her persmission to raise anything.

It is an issue of her not wanting intimacy, of being afraind of it, an issue which pre-dates me and for which I bear little or no direct responsibility other than marrying her and being blind to that side of her.

(She lost her father at an early age and she is afraid of loving becuase of possibiity of loss. Further. her mother abandoned her. Sex and attendant intimacy has always been difficult with her and now that she is post menopausal, she has told me that she has retired from it.)

My contribution: I deluded myself into thinking that I could heal her, that my warmth would enable her to blossom... it has in many areas, but not sexually.

Lest you think that I married a complete basket case. she is a highly intellgent, accomplished, moral and fair person, with fairly enlightened principles and deep psychological insight-- except when it comes to herself. She hides from herself and that makes it difficult if not impossible to discuss US

Fourth, you mistake seeking other partners as disengagement... I am exceptionlly engaged with and supportive of my wife.. I am an excellent communicator and work very hard at the marriage

Fifth: You are right, any sex has its risks.. but some are more prudent than others.

What would you say if we were not married and only dating? Do you believe that a person shuldn't date more than one person at a time? And that between relationships you should wait sex months and get tested?

I point this out not to excuse potential behaviour on my part but explore the moral issues around relationships. period. From a risk to partner standpoint, all relaitonships have a simmilar set of issues

Sixth: there seems to be a rationalist mythology in your position: be logical, give her an ultimatum, and that will bring her around or I can end it.

Well, I have tried the ultimatum route... several times... "if this doesn't change... I will need to find other sexual outlets..." However, these didn't have an impact (other than complicating the issue) Niether did more than a year of couples therapy which I instigated.

The issue is not a matter of will for her – or for most people. She is. for example, afraid of heights. I can't simply argue or talk her ourt of if, and evern if she wants not to be afraid, will alone is not enough. Same with sex. This is unlike, who's going to walk the dog, do the dishes after dinner, pick up the kids or any of those thousand negotiations couples have... things we excell at.


There is a Sophie's choice and I have been patient for about 20 years. I have raised her kids... so let's not be so quick to judge.

Anyway the reason why I started this thread was to
A)see how others dealt with the issue and to gain some insights...
B) Stimulate some more intelligent threads than things like what's you favourite flavour of ice cream...

I think I learn more more the genuine struggles of people in the same boat, than from moralists who
a) jump to conclusions or
b) make simplistic pronouncements

Cogently yours


Sure...if you mutually masterbate while you wait the six months to confirm both partner's HIV status, you can be relatively sure you won't get sick...but will you really uphold this standard, dp you really think the partners you're cheating with will be that comitted to you? There is no all out way to stay safe...sex carries risks, you can reduce them but they are always there...you can get herpes from kissing, or HIV for that matter. Subjecting your spouse to any non-consentual risk is pretty abhorent if you ask me, regardless of how small the chances are.

Did you're wife really promise you a lifetime of fulfilling sex? I don't really think getting married entitles anybody to a lifetime of sexual satisfaction, sex isn't addressed in the wedding vows. And no-sex doesn't mean you get a free pass to lie and sneak behind your spouse. Most couples who are together long enough experience some kind of sexual lull, its the drawback to being in a long-term monogamous relationship. Those lulls can only be overcome with work. The thing about healthy, functional marriages is that both partners remain engaged and work with each other to move past this kind of problem. It sucks for you that she has disengaged sexually, but what you're doing is equal or worse...you're disengaging from the relationship and lying to her in order to have sex with someone else. Did you ever consider that maybe she doesn't want to have sex because she has never felt sexually satisfied? You may be more responsible for your relationship's sexual dysfunction than you've considered, even if you blame her.

The real reason you're cheating on your wife is because you and she are both too afraid to face the problems that have arisen between the two of you. I'm not even saying that you shouldn't seek sex with someone else, but if you won't face your problem honestly then you're marriage is just a big game of pretend. Acting like this is sophies choice, as though you've been forced to either stay in a no-sex dysfunctional marriage, or cheat on your wife is just how you're rationalizing what you want to do; in reality you have more choices than that...the right choice is to force your wife to either talk about sex, go to a therapist or whatever, or give her an ultimatum. At least tell her that you are going to start sleeping with someone else if nothing changes. let her know how bad its gotten. If you hide your dissatisfaction, you aren't even giving her a chance to make the problem better.
[object Object]

[Dr.StrangeLove]

You posted an ad saying you're seeking a first time with another couple etc. whether you're having sex or not, you've already begun cheating on your wife. I never meant to imply that your wife was a basket case or that either of you are poor communicators or unable to solve problems together. So if thats what came across, I'm sorry...message boards are imperfect communication tools.

If all those things you're saying about you and your wife are true, you shouldn't need to lie to her...even about this. The fact that you and your wife are such good comunicators and excel in so many aspects of your relationship is a testiment to the fact that you can work with each other to solve problems. Thats what you vow to do in marriage, be honest and work together. If you value your relationship think about what cheating will do to the trust you've gained from one another, it will fracture it...you're operating under the premise that what she doesn't know won't hurt her, but consider what maintaing a relationship behind her back will do to her and your family...it will hurt them. I've said that I understand needing to pursue sex outside your relationship...my point is that there is something wrong if you can't be honest with your spouse. There is something you are not willing to face.

I am not saying that people who date should wait for six months, etc. but people who date, have multiple partners, etc. are at a higher risk for stds that people who are married. If you sleep with someone else, or multiple people, you will be at a higher risk than you are now, and you are taking on that extra risk for your wife too. If you need an intimate relationship outside your marriage, your wife should know so she can make informed decisions about her own safety. Marriage is not dating, when you got married you took on more responsibility than people who date...you promised to take care of her and be honest with her...people who date don't have the bond of trust that can only be built over decades of marriage--the bond of trust that you've built with your wife.

I realize you don't like my opinion, and maybe I have come across as incompassionate or judgmental, that is sometimes a consequence of trying to have conversations on message boards...I'm sorry, i'm not really an asshole :) but please don't try to reduce my opinions to "simplistic pronouncements." I am being genuine in my response to your original post. You asked the question...weren't you prepared to hear opinions you don't like? Please believe me when I tell you that I feel for both you and your wife--believe it or not thats why I responded. I just think its important to try and get people to consider all sides of their choices. Clearly I can't understand the infinite complexity of your 20+ year marriage and if you're really making the right choice for you and your wife then my opinion shouldn't matter to you. The fact that you're getting upset, however, tells me I've struck a nerve. That being said, I'll stop posting responses on this thread if you think they're that stupid...I don't have any stakes in the outcome of your life.

[darkeyes]

If outside of the exclusive relationship, any other deep emotional or sexual relationship is cheating. I dont say this judgementally for I am no angel in this regard and make no excuses for what I have done. But cheating it is and however we paper over it and make excuses to ourselves, cheating it will always remain... worst of all, it is not only ourselves who must live with memory, heartbreak and consequences of our cheating.
..and let me add, knowingly getting your end away with some one who is attached and whose partner has not given his or her blessing is also just as much cheating..

[Cogent]

Strange Love

I am neither upset by your remarks nor do I think they are stupid.

I do think you jumped to some conclusions and your thinking wasn't always a careful... that undercut the many good things you had to say and I see you made conisderable effort to make your remarks.

When I wrote this thread, I wanted to invite an exploration of ideas, not moral pronouncements on my life. Many people have felt fit to pass judgement on me, I would rather they analize the issues. I already judge myself.

Cogently yours


You posted an ad saying you're seeking a first time with another couple etc. whether you're having sex or not, you've already begun cheating on your wife. I never meant to imply that your wife was a basket case or that either of you are poor communicators or unable to solve problems together. So if thats what came across, I'm sorry...message boards are imperfect communication tools.

If all those things you're saying about you and your wife are true, you shouldn't need to lie to her...even about this. The fact that you and your wife are such good comunicators and excel in so many aspects of your relationship is a testiment to the fact that you can work with each other to solve problems. Thats what you vow to do in marriage, be honest and work together. If you value your relationship think about what cheating will do to the trust you've gained from one another, it will fracture it...you're operating under the premise that what she doesn't know won't hurt her, but consider what maintaing a relationship behind her back will do to her and your family...it will hurt them. I've said that I understand needing to pursue sex outside your relationship...my point is that there is something wrong if you can't be honest with your spouse. There is something you are not willing to face.

I am not saying that people who date should wait for six months, etc. but people who date, have multiple partners, etc. are at a higher risk for stds that people who are married. If you sleep with someone else, or multiple people, you will be at a higher risk than you are now, and you are taking on that extra risk for your wife too. If you need an intimate relationship outside your marriage, your wife should know so she can make informed decisions about her own safety. Marriage is not dating, when you got married you took on more responsibility than people who date...you promised to take care of her and be honest with her...people who date don't have the bond of trust that can only be built over decades of marriage--the bond of trust that you've built with your wife.

I realize you don't like my opinion, and maybe I have come across as incompassionate or judgmental, that is sometimes a consequence of trying to have conversations on message boards...I'm sorry, i'm not really an asshole :) but please don't try to reduce my opinions to "simplistic pronouncements." I am being genuine in my response to your original post. You asked the question...weren't you prepared to hear opinions you don't like? Please believe me when I tell you that I feel for both you and your wife--believe it or not thats why I responded. I just think its important to try and get people to consider all sides of their choices. Clearly I can't understand the infinite complexity of your 20+ year marriage and if you're really making the right choice for you and your wife then my opinion shouldn't matter to you. The fact that you're getting upset, however, tells me I've struck a nerve. That being said, I'll stop posting responses on this thread if you think they're that stupid...I don't have any stakes in the outcome of your life.

[Dr.StrangeLove]

Strange Love

I am neither upset by your remarks nor do I think they are stupid.

I do think you jumped to some conclusions and your thinking wasn't always a careful... that undercut the many good things you had to say and I see you made conisderable effort to make your remarks.

When I wrote this thread, I wanted to invite an exploration of ideas, not moral pronouncements on my life. Many people have felt fit to pass judgement on me, I would rather they analize the issues. I already judge myself.


I think most of us judge ourselves even more harshly than we deserve, we don't need others doing it for us...I guess its just difficult to discuss something like this without getting into a moral debate on some level...and since the question was regarding your specific situation, thats what I framed my responses around. It was never my intent to pass judgement, as I can't imagine the emotional/sexual/spiritual frustration you must be experiencing...in the end I just hope that your choices bring you what you are missing from your life without hurting what you value.

[Solomon]

Yes, she saw a doctor a few years back. The Dr. said testosterone might help but proceeded with a long list of some rather serious possible side effects that scared us both. I don't think it's right to ask her to put her health jeopardy to make our sex life better.

just a thought, but it seems to me that you are putting her health at risk to make your sex life better if you are indeed seeking sex outside the marriage (i'm not being judging, but i can't make heads or tails outta who's doing what when in this thread lol)

not to mention the relational impact on ya'll

maybe it'd be a good idea to see a doctor again, they have made alot of advances over the last couple of years.... and it's probably a good idea to see as many doctors as you can as their opinions can drastically differ sometimes