Memory just a memory?

[bookworm]

I recently read an article in which medical researchers are looking into the benefits of a beta-blocker called Propranolol. This drug apparently blunts stress hormones in the amygdala portion of the brain, rendering traumatic memory to the level of everyday thought.

Although developed for extreme, life-threatening psychological therapies, it seems to me this opens up a nasty can 'o worms should it find its way--and it probably will, given the power and influence of pharmaceutical companies--into the general populace.

Are we not creatures of memory? For good or ill, this is our biological destiny. Is not memory--among other things--a learning tool that has allowed us to progress, to correct, to guide, to choose, to act?

Would such a drug give license to aberrant behaviors knowing the memory can be wiped away or justified with a pill?

Memory has never been nor ever will be clearly defined. It is impossible to medicinally target one specific event, which means all memories would be effected. How would this shape our daily experiences?

Aren't we drugged-up enough as it is?

I'm all for giving whatever service is needed to help those who have truly experienced traumatic events provided care is balanced; that is, we don't hand out drugs like candy without monitoring and traditional psychological therapy.

Nonetheless, this research vexes me, perhaps because the potential abuse of this drug, should it come to fruition, is mind-boggling (pun intended).

Your thoughts?

[darkeyes]

Am immensely suspicious of ne thing that plays with the mind, and of those whose profession is to treat the mental illnesses which as human beings we are all susceptible to. I know that therapy is a big thing in the US and is becoming more so here. Dont get me wrong sometimes we all may need to have our minds helped. The stresses and anxieties of life are sometimes too much for us to bear alone and we do need help.. but I think mostly we can overcome them without the aid of drugs and highly paid professionals, who like lawyers arguing about the law have so many different opinions about mental illness that at any time we really dont know the truth of it.

Certainly any treatment which so radically reshapes the mind so as to make trauma seem everyday is extremely dangerous. I agree that its applications will almost certainly be put to even more sinster use, just as any mind adjusting drug will always be.. God knows the anti gay and bi mob will have a field day with them given their head.

The mind for all its faults, all its ailments, all its foibles is what makes us who we are.. any treatment, drug or otherwise which affects who we are must be viewed with suspicion and its use strictly monitored and controlled...in the wrong hands it is a time bomb. While I am no conspiracy theorist per se, I do believe that conspiracies exist, and have no doubt that if such a drug can do what bookworm says then some bunch of arseholes somewhere will conspire to use it to the detriment of some poor sods... us maybe if they thought they could get away with it.

So its important that we keep our eyes peeled and be on our guard.. the world isnt that nice that we can afford to take our eye of the ball..who knows what crap we will be landed with...

And to answer another part of your question bookworm, yes we are overdrugged....very often we take drugs for simple ailments which we would throw off naturally ne way... the drugs may or may not be a help in alleviating symptoms but I am pretty convinced in the long term they do damage to our immune system through overuse, but then is that not what the drug companies want?? They can then develop more new and less than desirable treatments.. another conspiracy?? Probably but conspiracy or not its greed at its worst, stupidity bordering on insanity and another time bomb for us to deal with further down the line...

Jeez..Fran is a cheery soul 2day..

[Herbwoman39]

Unfortunately this has become a pill-popping nation. Feeling a little blue? Here's a pill. Can't sleep? Here's a pill. Shy in social situations? Here's a pill.

This is not to demean those who have real issues. Clinical depression is a real issue. Chronic insomnia can become a real issue. But shyness? Come on now.

The idea that we can take a pill to fix any problem is the real issue. We have become so uncomfortable with discomfort that we have forgotten how to deal with our own emotions and stress levels.

I agree that if someone should be unfortunate enough to see a loved one die or survive a traumatic event that the pill could be one option for the short term. Just long enough to dull the pain until the mind's natural abilities to fade memories takes over. But i feel that using that as an instant solution would be detrimental in the end.

From a spiritual standpoint, our memories are what makes us who we are. What we survive makes us stronger. I have been homeless, hungry and a two time rape survivor. These things are a part of who I am. I've learned more about who I am at the core of my being from surviving these things than I have from all of the good and pleasant things that have occurred in my life.

To deprive someone of the opportunity for spiritual growth just to avoid discomfort is, in my opinion, a true crime.

However, if the trauma is too much for them to handle and they are experiencing mental breakdowns because of the experience, then the pill would be useful in the short term.

[Azrael]

This is a tad off topic. I take propanolol twice daily for anxiety. It's been a godsend for me. I've tried quite a few drugs for this purpose but none has ever worked this well. It actually stops me from getting nervous and panicky whereas when I was on benzodiazepenes they only helped once I was already flipping out. I believe we are an extremely overmedicated society, but on the other hand, thanks to seroquel and propanolol I'm leveled out and not jumping out of my skin and hyperventilating. For people like myself with a problem with selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors this is a viable option along with buspar. Don't be afraid to go off label.

[flexuality]

Propranolol = Inderal??

holy shit.....I gotta do some research here....

Azrael, this tones down the body reactions for you? (the fight or flight response, the jumping out of your skin and hyperventilating specifically?) Does it do more than that?

Have you ever done anything with EMDR?

Herbie, while the mind's natural abilities to fade memories
works for most memories, it does NOT hold true for traumatic memories - they are stored differently. VERY differently....I'm not talking about the memory of a trauma....I mean traumatic memories...they're not the same thing.

Am just thinking out loud here.....don't mind me...this is very exciting the connections popping here lol!

I'll write more later....

and I am not one for medicating away feelings either....

[flexuality]

oh...bookworm...where did you read that article??

I am interested in reading it. :)

[bookworm]

Azrael...you are hardly off-topic...

I based my post upon a medical article I read. I take anything I read with a healthy dose of skepticism, but truth be told the implications of this research bothers me.

Since you take Propranolol, you are in a better place than I to remark upon its efficacy. What is your experience? Has it affected your memory in any way?

I am glad it works for you, and I wish you the best. Please do enlighten this ignorant fool!

[bookworm]

flex--

I really do wish I could remember where I saw this. If I had to guess it would have been on MSN, one of those side pieces they run. It caught my attention, for sure, both for its length and info (some 4 pages, as I recall), but I'm sure a search would yield results as it was posted just a few days ago. Let me know!

[flexuality]

flex--

I really do wish I could remember where I saw this. If I had to guess it would have been on MSN, one of those side pieces they run. It caught my attention, for sure, both for its length and info (some 4 pages, as I recall), but I'm sure a search would yield results as it was posted just a few days ago. Let me know!
Ok, thanx! :)

[flexuality]

bookworm,
is this the article?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10806799/

I haven't read it all yet....am off to do that now! :)

[bookworm]

Not the one I read, but the basis of the research is the same.

[flexuality]

Just a few more links about this....

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/medicine/7001525ad18aa010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/11/22/60minutes/main2205629_page4.shtml

http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2004/03.18/01-ptsd.html

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0729_050729_PTSDpill.html

http://60minutes.yahoo.com/segment/21/memory_drug

[flexuality]

From what I have read so far, what they seem to be adressing is traumatic memory.

Traumatic memory is entirely different than regular memory (short term memory and long term memory). It's not even stored the same way or in the same places, so it is highly doubtful that Propranolol would be capable of wiping memories. That and this drug has been around for a long time and typically used for hypertension. Memory loss does not seem to be a side effect of it.

One brand name of Propranolol is Inderal.

However it's uses with traumatic memory is a glorious light at the end of the tunnel that's not another freight train for me! :tong:

This is HUGE for me. HUGE!

I understand what they mean when they say "moving the traumatic memory into regular memory"...I have done this. At least with some of them. It is a walk through the worst hell to do it.

Not all of these traumatic memories are easily accessed either. They are "trapped in time" as it were and if one of these formed when you were, say, three and had very little language, or not enough to convey at the time what was happening, then when that memory gets triggered, it is exactly like you were at three in every aspect....except that it feels like it is happening NOW. You suddenly find that you have no words to describe what's going on...all you know is that you're feeling terrified and your body is jumping in temp, or you're hyperventalating, or panicking, etc.

It's like being a small child completely alone in the back of a pitch black cave absolutely terrified and screaming for your life......and no one can hear you.

Vietnam Vets with PTSD are another often sited example of traumatic memory. We've all heard about the vietnam vet who hears a car backfire and drops to the ground instantly. It's not because he conciously thinks he's back in Vietnam, he knows full well where he is, but the brain used a survival skill when he truly WAS in danger to save his life. The problem is, the brain doesn't seem to know to let go of that program it made. It just keeps it forever.

It doesn't matter how much you are aware of where you are, or how much reassurance you get that it's not happening, it STILL kicks in. No amount of logic in the world can stop it.

I think one of the harder things about dealing with that kind of "reaction" is that for me anyway, I end up feeling so foolish or humiliated or think that somehow I should be able to just not do that....the old "well if she'd just try harder" thing....

Because of the way traumatic memories are stored, you can't just "reason" it out. The normal "I can handle this, logical, thinking, rational" part of one's brain is kicked out of the boardroom, so to speak, with traumatic memory. Mr A has taken over! (the amygdala hehe)

Not all trauma is stored as traumatic memory, matter of fact, most isn't. It's amazing what we can live through and deal with without it necessarily becoming a traumatic memory. Yes, we have memory of trauma and memory of the emotions we went through with it, the fear, the hurt, whatever, but that still doesn't usually make it what they call a traumatic memory.

Traumatic memory refers to the way in which the brain stores it and to what happens when that memory is triggered. It is entirely different than a "regularly" stored memory.

The biggest challenge I see, is that this is a perfectly natural and "normal" way for the brain to do things. It's not an illness, it's a survival thing and because it's intended to keep us safe, and in some cases, alive, it is extremely difficult to undo.

I could sit here and type all this out, but it's probably kinda boring unless one deals with it or is interested in it. It's kind of involved.

But if anyone would like to discuss it, I am more than willing to. :)

The implications for things like PTSD, Complex PTSD, DID...just being able to access those parts of the brain, having a chance to put some things into normal memory.....THEN one can deal with it....my god! That is HUGE! :)

The other very exciting thing I see with Propranolol aka Inderal, is that it is sometimes used in the treatment of migraines/clusters which is something else I deal with. I have noticed "overlaps" with migraines/clusters and traumatic memory "symptoms" when triggered.

[dans94]

That's very interesting flex but from what I've read, this drug needs to be taken immediately after the trauma and for about twenty days. I don't think it works for 'old' trauma. My pshych is prescribing Prazosin for me and I'll give it a try. It's an Alpha Blocker and is supposed to help with nightmares caused by ptsd and help you relax to sleep. Hope it works, I haven't received any yet. Let me know how the Propanolol works. I already take Atenalol (beta blocker) so don't think I can give it a try.