Integrity of Marriage, just a rant

[Solomon]

I feel very sad about the notion that there are those on here that use sexuality to justify dismissing their spouses.

sorry, but the problem with that is not that your spouse is right or wrong, it's the integrity with which we chose to make vows of marriage.

i'm by no means perfect of this, in fact this is one area that i've had to have a great deal of personal growth in.

everytime that i've ever made any excuses to try and break my own word, i've heard the immortal words of my mentor saying to me "but you chose".

that's powerful to me, i chose.... i chose to marry this woman, i chose the job the i have, i chose to live in the house i do, i chose to use the services that are provided, i chose EVERYTHING about my life.

it's hard to choke on, but it's also the only medication that works for my soul.

i do also believe that everyone gets to where they're going to be in their own good time, so please don't feel as though this is aimed at anyone other than me. i just wanted to get it offa me chest in a public way.

[TorontoGuy2007]

i have to agree for sure. so many out there want to use bisexuality as their excuse to be unfaithful, no wonder gays and straights seem to have this myth that ALL bisexuals are nothing but unfaithful sex-craving pigs. we certainly aren't ALL like this. but the perception is indeed sad. people freak when they learn i am bisexual because they assume in a unfaithful and polygamous.. which of course i have never been nor have i ever pretended to be.

we do indeed make choices in life and make promises, and when we chose to break those promises, we only have ourselves to blame!

[Navarana]

I completely understand that the original post is a personnal thing - I respect that.

I am, however, offended by the fact that so many people try to justify bisexuality by how much it resembles manogamous, straight (or gay for that matter) relationships.

You don't have to choose polyamory or have open relationships, but that doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with such relationships, especially if all parties involved live by the same philosophy.

Marriage is a social construct. It works in its 'traditional form' (ignoring historical traditions from cultures across the globe where monogamy was not the norm or standard for moral righteousness) for some, and for a great many others it does not. I don't believe that monogamous people are morally superior.

[Solomon]

yes, just to clarify, i was only speaking of dismissing a partner by exclusion, when during making vows of marriage people choose to give the spouse priority.

i think it's actually great that there are polyamorous, and open, and all kinds of different relationships where there are agreements between all. in fact i'm kind of hoping to have a marriage that involves a select number of people that flex and i invite into our bed at some point.

i was not intending to send any messages about moral superiority (as if there actually is such a thing lol!).

[ghytifrdnr]

Sol, you're still young. With the passing of years you might very well find your viewpoint changing.

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
- - - Bertrand Russell
:2cents:

[Solomon]

i may be young, and i'm sure my perspective'll change many many times... but does the principle i speak of?

i don't know that there's anything wrong with being a sex hungry pig, sex is the most powerful driving force of humanity.

but i do believe that agreements should be made first always to the ones that we chose to make our top priorities.

[raistkit]

openess and honesty are the key. happily married for nearly 30 yrs. he likes to be with men and i like to watch. but i don't see it as cheating i'm with him every step along the way. this way we are exploring our sexuality together. kit

[Tommy2020]

openess and honesty are the key. happily married for nearly 30 yrs. he likes to be with men and i like to watch. but i don't see it as cheating i'm with him every step along the way. this way we are exploring our sexuality together. kit

How rare is this scenario? Thirty years! You are both blessed with an understanding that should transcend any difficulty either of you might ever encounter. I'm blown away. Thirty years. I take my hat off to you both... you have nothing but my deepest admiration for this longevity of your marraige.
Tommy2020 :bounce: :bowdown: :bounce: :bowdown: :bounce: :bowdown:

[jedinudist]

openess and honesty are the key. happily married for nearly 30 yrs. he likes to be with men and i like to watch. but i don't see it as cheating i'm with him every step along the way. this way we are exploring our sexuality together. kit

Thanks kit!

My wife and I are HAPPILY married and very much in Love, and she is the absolute number 1 person in my life. I have her permission to find a male friend with benefits if I wish to do so, and neither of us sees this as my "excluding" her or placing anyone else on the same holy level that I have her on.

She is my one and only, she is my Love, my life, my advocate, and my mate.

Nobody else could ever come close.

[ElizabethJane]

Thanks kit!

My wife and I are HAPPILY married and very much in Love, and she is the absolute number 1 person in my life. I have her permission to find a male friend with benefits if I wish to do so, and neither of us sees this as my "excluding" her or placing anyone else on the same holy level that I have her on.

She is my one and only, she is my Love, my life, my advocate, and my mate.

Nobody else could ever come close.

Finally, finally, finally, finally, FINALLY!!! I have found another couple like my own. Only difference is - c'est moi, and not my husband who is bi. Your the counterpart!! I have often explained my marriage to my husband as one of absolute love and admiration for each other as a person and together as a couple. I knew after my first marriage ended and subsequent relationships never proved to be "the one" that I wanted a certain type of man, and a certain type of love, and I want to have that person love me for who I am and who I am is EJ. I'm bisexual and I love my husband. I am bisexual and my husband adores me for that. I'm bisexual and he is not jealous when I spend my time with my woman. I'm bisexual and grateful beyond belief that I found my soul mate and can and will enjoy every moment life has to offer.

I feel like the spring has really infected me. I almost want to puke at how sweet I was being, but touche. At any rate, I'm pleased to meet you guys and props to you.

EJ :flag1:

[DiamondDog]

Traditional marriage, the ownership that goes with it, and perhaps even marriage at all isn't for me.

I would like an exchange of vows with witnesses though. :)

[flexuality]

Traditional marriage, the ownership that goes with it, and perhaps even marriage at all isn't for me.

I would like an exchange of vows with witnesses though. :)

I am really confused as to why people think that marriage has an "ownership" component to it....?

I suppose it can if that's what the two people getting married want.....but there seems to be a lot of people who assume that "ownership" goes with marriage.

I just find that really odd.....

[flexuality]

Thanks kit!

My wife and I are HAPPILY married and very much in Love, and she is the absolute number 1 person in my life. I have her permission to find a male friend with benefits if I wish to do so, and neither of us sees this as my "excluding" her or placing anyone else on the same holy level that I have her on.

She is my one and only, she is my Love, my life, my advocate, and my mate.

Nobody else could ever come close.

You are right - that is not excluding her. :)

I think what Sol was getting at was the ones who will just go ahead and NOT have that kind of agreement with their spouse, and go behind their back and then use bisexuality and "my wife/husband/partner wouldn't understand" kind of thing to justify going behind their back.

You and raistkit sound like you have both included your spouses in an agreement, thereby not dismissing them.

I think that is wonderful and it's great to hear! :)

[Long Duck Dong]

lol flex, it has a lot to do with the marriage vows, lol..I know a number of people that have issues with the love, honour and OBEY part

i see that aspect a lot in the people that I deal with.... the males mainly talk about their * missus * or * my woman *....it doesn't give the person a * equal * standing.....

if I was to take a wife, ( which I never will ) I would take her in the olde style, which is that she is the lady of the house and I sit at her feet....
its the way things used to be.... the lady, not the male. was the more powerful and revered, but both people stood equal as partners, lovers and companions...

its a hard thing to explain....lol.....but in a olde wicca coven, ( not the modern wicca crap ) a priestess stood over the priests, as mother and father, but the male priests and the females were equal in standing
hence, I can stand equal to any male.... but I can never rule over a female... the law of wicca doesn't allow me to....but I am her equal

[DiamondDog]

I think that people get married for the wrong reasons sometimes. Such as they think that they have to be married because everyone else is, because they want kids, beause someone's going to have a kid, or because of family pressure.

Likewise they stay married (sometimes in very bad/abusive marriages) because of these reasons (as one person wrote about recently in the fourm about her sister who has decided to stay married because of kids).

Personally I'm not a fan of marriages but that's because I've seen people stay in them for the wrong reasons or get married to the wrong people for the wrong reasons. I'd rather be happy and alone than feeling trapped and miserable with the wrong person.

I don't harbor the same happily-ever-after fantasies about true love that some hetero guys have about marriage. Hetero people (particularly women in many cases) think that they'll just find the one person that they'll fall in love with and who will fix everything wrong with them. Or the idea that once you marry everything is perfect.

I think most (usually heterosexual) people have exceedingly rigid notions of what marriage and sexual fidelity are supposed to mean. Somehow they believe that all sexual impulses and thoughts should revolve around their partner. Yes, it's really super if you can find a partner who is willing to act out your fantasies as much and as often as you would like. But that doesn't happen even in the most liberal of marriages. It's not your partner's job to fill your every sexual need.

As far as the power reasons that go along with marriage it's more to do with things such as finance, property, the outdated idea that you have to be closed/exclusive with that one person as long as you are married to them, and the honour and obey part gets me too, and I feel that most marriages simply aren't that equal and equate posession because of the idea of "my wife" or "my husband" like LDD said.

Plus gay people can't get legally married either and that's stupid. I do agree with them that marriage is a heterosexual institution and that there are more pressing issues that the gay "community®" needs to focus on before marriage.

Such as how in some places you will be fired from your job if it's discovered that you're gay, you might not be hired by companies because of being non hetero, you can get your house taken away, you can find it impossible to find an apartment to rent, and some states don't even have anti hate crime laws.

Don't get me started on what queer rights are like in other countries. The US is considered a paradise when it comes to queer rights compared to them. Such as the two teenage boys who were hung in Iran simply because they were gay. :(

[biwords]

I will probably regret writing this, and I'm willing to be corrected, but why do most descriptions of 'the law of wicca' strike me as an attempt to give modern liberal feminism a respectably ancient pedigree? I find it hard to believe that the idea of 'equality' meant much anywhere in the world before the French Revolution....

[Omnivore]

I'm (we're?) a married couple, with two wonderful kids, been together 10 years, and both bi.

While our marriage has been far from perfect (whose is) we both fully accept this side of ourselves and explore together, never separately. It took us many years to get our relationship strong enough to bring others into it, but now we're very strong together and our relationship is far from stale - we have an absolute riot together.

I'm so lucky to have found my wife. I was very open about being bi - I told her 2 months into our relationship and was stunned when, after a few moments thought, said it was a turn on! We married soon after ;)

One of the reasons I joined this community was to see how many others are like us, or, as it were, keeping it secret from their partner and perhaps being unfaithful. Personally I think having relationship outside the marriage (whether a one night stand or something longer) without the spouse's consent, regardless of the other persons gender, is still being unfaithful.

But at the end of the days that's just my/our opinion as regards ourselves and our marriage. The important point here is that only you and your spouse together can decide what is acceptable. A marriage is two people deciding things together - if you decide something as important as this on your own (whether secret or not) then you're making a mockery of the marriage and your spouse.

This also applies to anyone in a committed relationship too - many people live together without feeling the need for marriage but the same is still true if you have made a commitment to each other.

(just to be clear we tend to go swinging as opposed to anything polyamorous)

[flexuality]

I think that people get married for the wrong reasons sometimes. Such as they think that they have to be married because everyone else is, because they want kids, beause someone's going to have a kid, or because of family pressure.

Likewise they stay married (sometimes in very bad/abusive marriages) because of these reasons (as one person wrote about recently in the fourm about her sister who has decided to stay married because of kids).

Personally I'm not a fan of marriages but that's because I've seen people stay in them for the wrong reasons or get married to the wrong people for the wrong reasons. I'd rather be happy and alone than feeling trapped and miserable with the wrong person.

I don't harbor the same happily-ever-after fantasies about true love that some hetero guys have about marriage. Hetero people (particularly women in many cases) think that they'll just find the one person that they'll fall in love with and who will fix everything wrong with them. Or the idea that once you marry everything is perfect.

I think most (usually heterosexual) people have exceedingly rigid notions of what marriage and sexual fidelity are supposed to mean. Somehow they believe that all sexual impulses and thoughts should revolve around their partner. Yes, it's really super if you can find a partner who is willing to act out your fantasies as much and as often as you would like. But that doesn't happen even in the most liberal of marriages. It's not your partner's job to fill your every sexual need.

As far as the power reasons that go along with marriage it's more to do with things such as finance, property, the outdated idea that you have to be closed/exclusive with that one person as long as you are married to them, and the honour and obey part gets me too, and I feel that most marriages simply aren't that equal and equate posession because of the idea of "my wife" or "my husband" like LDD said.

Plus gay people can't get legally married either and that's stupid. I do agree with them that marriage is a heterosexual institution and that there are more pressing issues that the gay "community®" needs to focus on before marriage.

Such as how in some places you will be fired from your job if it's discovered that you're gay, you might not be hired by companies because of being non hetero, you can get your house taken away, you can find it impossible to find an apartment to rent, and some states don't even have anti hate crime laws.

Don't get me started on what queer rights are like in other countries. The US is considered a paradise when it comes to queer rights compared to them. Such as the two teenage boys who were hung in Iran simply because they were gay. :(

I am certainly glad that Sol and I don't have a marriage like that! :eek:

[flexuality]

One of the reasons I joined this community was to see how many others are like us, or, as it were, keeping it secret from their partner and perhaps being unfaithful. Personally I think having relationship outside the marriage (whether a one night stand or something longer) without the spouse's consent, regardless of the other persons gender, is still being unfaithful.

But at the end of the days that's just my/our opinion as regards ourselves and our marriage. The important point here is that only you and your spouse together can decide what is acceptable. A marriage is two people deciding things together - if you decide something as important as this on your own (whether secret or not) then you're making a mockery of the marriage and your spouse.

This also applies to anyone in a committed relationship too - many people live together without feeling the need for marriage but the same is still true if you have made a commitment to each other.



I agree with you! :)

It is great to see/hear from/meet (what word do I use? lol!) other people who think like we do when it comes to this issue. :)

[Omnivore]

I agree with you! :)

It is great to see/hear from/meet (what word do I use? lol!) other people who think like we do when it comes to this issue. :)

Likewise :bigrin:

[intuit2]

I respect all of your opinions, but why so quick to judge? I don't condone cheating, but as a man who is out to his wife and faithful to her (admittedly, after being unfaithful), i refuse to tow the line of condemning those guys who act on their desires and don't tell their wives. There are too many reasons for some not to tell. Life is complicated and being bisexual in a heteronormative world makes it only more complicated. Yah...there are some dogs out there who use their bisexuality as an excuse, but there are some decent guys caught between a rock and a hard place. Desire and integrity do not always go hand in hand, nor do marriage and honesty. Each person has to make the decision that he or she sees as best for his/her situation. I think, perhaps, better than my talking, i'll quote Walt Whitman, the great American poet who loved and lusted after both men and women,:

I am not the poet of goodness only, I do not decline to be the poet of wickedness also.
What blurt is this about virtue and about vice?
Evil propels me and reform of evil propels me,
I stand indifferent,
My gait is no fault-finder's or rejecter's gait,
I moisten the roots of all that has grown.

Through me forbidden voices,
Voices of sexes and lusts, voices veiled and I removes the veil,
Voices indecent by me clarified and transfigured. I do not press my finger across my mouth,
I keep as delicate around the bowels as around the head and heart,
Copulation is no more rank to me than d Divine am I inside and out, and I make holy whatever I touch or am touched from,
The scent of these arm-pits aroma finer than prayer,
This head more than churches, bibles, and all the creeds.
I believe in the flesh and the appetites,
Seeing, hearing, feeling are miracles, and each part and tag of me is a miracle.

[flexuality]

I respect all of your opinions, but why so quick to judge? I don't condone cheating, but as a man who is out to his wife and faithful to her (admittedly, after being unfaithful), i refuse to tow the line of condemning those guys who act on their desires and don't tell their wives. There are too many reasons for some not to tell. Life is complicated and being bisexual in a heteronormative world makes it only more complicated. Yah...there are some dogs out there who use their bisexuality as an excuse, but there are some decent guys caught between a rock and a hard place. Desire and integrity do not always go hand in hand, nor do marriage and honesty. Each person has to make the decision that he or she sees as best for his/her situation. I think, perhaps, better than my talking, i'll quote Walt Whitman, the great American poet who loved and lusted after both men and women,:

I am not the poet of goodness only, I do not decline to be the poet of wickedness also.
What blurt is this about virtue and about vice?
Evil propels me and reform of evil propels me,
I stand indifferent,
My gait is no fault-finder's or rejecter's gait,
I moisten the roots of all that has grown.

Through me forbidden voices,
Voices of sexes and lusts, voices veiled and I removes the veil,
Voices indecent by me clarified and transfigured. I do not press my finger across my mouth,
I keep as delicate around the bowels as around the head and heart,
Copulation is no more rank to me than d Divine am I inside and out, and I make holy whatever I touch or am touched from,
The scent of these arm-pits aroma finer than prayer,
This head more than churches, bibles, and all the creeds.
I believe in the flesh and the appetites,
Seeing, hearing, feeling are miracles, and each part and tag of me is a miracle.

Wasn't trying to judge anyone.

I was stating what I want for me and what I want in a relationship and that I am glad I have that. It was not always so.

It's not my place to "condemn" anyone, but I am entitle to my opinion that there are better ways to conduct oneself.

Intergity hurts but it hurts far less than the alternative. It is my opinion that there are those who do not value or perhaps understand integrity enough to get past the fear.

Personally, I do not want a marriage that lacks integrity or honesty...and sometimes that is a long hard road to get there.

[intuit2]

Thanks Flex...

I didn't mean to imply that people shouldn't have their opinions. I just think that alternative views need to be voiced. And i, for one, totally agree with you about integrity in marriage....It is the basis of who i am, what my marriage is and I realized I couldn't live without it....otherwise i wouldn't have taken the chance to tell my wife about my being bi. Glad to know that there are spouses out there like you who are open enough to be able to deal with the complications of life!




Intergity hurts but it hurts far less than the alternative. It is my opinion that there are those who do not value or perhaps understand integrity enough to get past the fear.

Personally, I do not want a marriage that lacks integrity or honesty...and sometimes that is a long hard road to get there.

[flexuality]

Thanks Flex...

I didn't mean to imply that people shouldn't have their opinions. I just think that alternative views need to be voiced. And i, for one, totally agree with you about integrity in marriage....It is the basis of who i am, what my marriage is and I realized I couldn't live without it....otherwise i wouldn't have taken the chance to tell my wife about my being bi. Glad to know that there are spouses out there like you who are open enough to be able to deal with the complications of life!

I agree with you. :)

Sometimes the message gets confused when there's only words and no tone or body language to go with it. Words are only something like 7% of the message....

I need to stop posting and get to the store! lol!! :eek: :tong:

[Long Duck Dong]

I will probably regret writing this, and I'm willing to be corrected, but why do most descriptions of 'the law of wicca' strike me as an attempt to give modern liberal feminism a respectably ancient pedigree? I find it hard to believe that the idea of 'equality' meant much anywhere in the world before the French Revolution....

they don't, its a state of understanding...lol

the main goddesses ( this is coming from the celtic and there are over 200 gods and goddesses ) were never rulers, they were advisors.... you had the goddesses of childbirth, midwifery, cooking and food etc etc etc
they never gave your the power to become the worlds greatest chef, but they guided you hand in cooking etc

most of the other belief systems, had a male god as the * head * but in the celtic / olde wicca ways, there was no *head * there was simple equality overall, but each god and goddess had a area in which they held reign

now if you look thru history, 99% of rulers and great warriors were male....
however, a closer look reveals that the most powerful people in the world were often females.....tho males were held as the * head * of things, the power behind them was often female

in modern day times that is shown by the heads of companies.... they are predominately male.... but their sectaries are often female....
now you can break it down into sexuality aspects and equality aspects and argue it out til you are blue in the face, but it doesn't change the fact that, in most cases, the female, not the male is the true power.....

where it differs from feminine rights, is that the female and male are using their natural abilities, and thats where the old style wicca way comes into it....sure males are needed for reproduction, but their role in the act is minor compared to the role of the female ( 9 months of child bearing )
but the male is essential in a lot of areas.....

now if you take child bearing, its a female role and cos the female shares such a close connection to the child, they go thru the 3 stages of a female
the maiden ( birth to child bearing ) the woman ( child bearing to menopause ) and the crone ( menopause to death ).. thru that they gain a wisdom and understanding of child, that defers the abilities of the male...
thats where the old style aspect of the wicca, comes into it more

a male doesn't have the triple stage. they are constant....but 90% of the time, they voluntarily knelt at the feet of the female, out of respect and honour and acknowledge of the ladies abilities, beyond the understanding and knowledge of the males

in todays terms, its the same aspect of as father and wife, a couple are equal, in the home, they should be equal, in the work force, they should be equal, but there is no way that a male can compare to the natural abilities of a female, with the natural aspects of thinking, understanding, child birth etc etc.... thats where the many part of old style wicca plays out

now in history, ladies like boudicca and cleopatra, joan of arc etc, showed that they had the ability to fill the role of the male while being female.... but males can't fill the role of the female while being the male... its genetically impossible... the only people capable of filling both roles as a male doing a females role, is a hermaphrodite.... so the old wicca folk place the female as the highest REGARDED being, then place BOTH sexes as equal....

its not about being the superior race or superior being, but acknowledgment of natural abilities of both sexes.... and not a case of equal rights

[flexuality]

LDD,

Not sure I digested all of what you're saying there....but a couple things I did pick up on.....

**totally off on a tangent here....but I notice that when I reply to your posts....I start typing like you do....lol.....very strange....lol!**

Back to what I was saying...lol! Oh yeah.....men and women definately do think differently, process differently, are "wired" differently....and it's all good.....lol...and they do have different abilities that compliment each other.

I find it interesting that in my somewhat....bizarre and strange way that I "research" things...in this case religions and ancient beliefs and whatnot....that I come across a LOT of very " similar to the Jesus story" beliefs that have one significant difference....they have both male AND female God/ Goddess acting as a pair.....Mr and Mrs God? lol!

It seems to be that when Christianity became "churchianity" (thanks bi-robin...I think it was him (I apologize if it was someone else)....for that term! lol) they conveniently "disposed" of Mrs God.

...and yep....done the Christian walk, born again thing too.....been athiest....not sure what label to grab now lol! ....I beleive in God, just not the one the church tries to put in a box.....it's so much more than that....can't be defined in my opinion.....not supposed to be..lol

...this typing thing is very odd....lol....ok...disconnecting....lol!!

[Omnivore]

That's the thing here - we'll all right here - thee is no black and white way to look at most things, especially relationships.

I have a very analytical mind and trying to work out what the hell was happening in my relationship was literally driving me mad until I just stepped back and realised that anything related to emotion (and that includes our impulses like sex drive) is impossible (IMHO) to rationalise.

The only way to make a relationship work is to talk about things together, explain who you are, and keep doing it over time - we all grow and develop.

The hard thing is, we can totally in love with someone and have a huge drive to explore at the same time (I have). Fear of losing the one you love means you end up seeking the external excitement you crave but not telling your partner because of the fear of losing them and ending up with massive guilt.

What's the answer? Damned if I know, but always talking is the best thing to do in a relationship.