Bad Karma

[darkeyes]

Just a thought Drew. I am a little disappointed that you decided to shut the the threads on Fat Women and Pics. I can see why you decided to do so but dont agree with the logic behind it.

I hate censorship of any kind, save that of the preaching of hatred and loathing against others on the basis of race creed or religion, though not on the basis of principle or belief. Even then it is often difficult to decide what is bigotry and what is reasoned argument born out of the real issues we face. This is a complex argument not for the purpose of this thread. I do not think we have got there somehow for all the bellicose nature of some contribs especially the intolerant and insulting nature of several on the personal physical aspects of some members.

Sure there was bad karma but thats life isnt it? We learn little if we simply stifle debate and worse, I am not sure that by closing threads you can possibly succeed. The argument and bad feeling if it exists simply spills on to other threads and has the potential to wreck many a fun and more serious debates within forums. I dont think that is what you wish to achieve. And also any issue can simply be reopened in another form.

Its a bit of a rocky old road Drew hun, and there is no easy answer to it. People should exercise some restraint, certainly in considering the feelings of others, in how they present arguments, but in the main I'm not sure it is wise to think of simply shutting threads down if things do get a little out of hand.

[csrakate]

I don't see his decision as censorship in these cases, merely a wise move to stop the escalating pissing matches that were going on in both threads. Both threads had disintegrated into personal attacks and that certainly does not meet the purpose of the forum, much less the mission of this site. I certainly agree that we all live to disagree at times, but there comes a time when those who can't play fair must be dealt with. Rules are clearly stated for posting in the forum...that is part of the deal!

I was disheartened by both of those threads...no...more like disappointed. I thought we all came here to support one another and to have a friendly, safe place to be who we are. That certainly does not include biased attitudes or personal attacks. I applaud Drew for stopping what could only lead to more hurt feelings and a fractured sense of community.

Just my personal opinion and my :2cents:

Hugs,
Kate

[arana]

Sorry Fran, I agree with Kate. Had there been some real discussions going on that would have been one thing but nothing was being accomplished in either threads. When all you have is name calling, childish insults and restating the same things over and over, in different forms, it's time to put it to a halt and get on with life. Drew did not censor what was said, he merely stopped what was becoming a never ending war of words.

[darkeyes]

And as far as I can see that war of words is spilling over elsewhere... just what I was afraid of. I dont think we disagree particularly very much, not on the symptoms anyway, merely the cure. In the end what such censorship for whether we like it or not that is just what is being attempted will as it so often does prove counter productive.

This is a pretty open site and I love it for that freedom and its easy atmosphere as well as the people who are members, who are after all why it exists. Because of that easy going way of running the site I dont think it possible to completely censor or stop, call it whatever you like, any of the name calling or anything else. You can close down a thread and an argument only for it to crop up elsewhere. There are signs of that already. And you cant close them all... not and keep things anything like decent and and retain the site's identity. The only alternative is to ban people and what does that achieve? Its easy enough to rejoin with another ID an then we go round the houses all over again...

I just think it best to restrict the name calling and bad karma to the threads in which they originated as far as we can..and that means leaving them open...

So me luffly Ran an me yummie Mumsy... shhhh an gimme a kissie... :tongue: disagreement is the food of life.. well after love, sex and shopping, clubbing and pubs and the jambos.But being serious on this I just think you are wrong and Drews actions may not have the desired effect. Time will tell.

[12voltman59]

It was a good thing Drew shut down those threads---it was just getting to be a pissing match in both of them---

It does seem that people have been a trifle testy of late--maybe it's the shitty winter weather in most places and everyone has a case of cabin fever!!!

"I think I've got cabin fever--I just shot six holes in my freezer--someone sound the alarm....I gotta to where it's warm and there ain't any snow-could ya beam somewhere Mr. Scott?---you pick the century and I'll pick the spot.... they're screaming waitress--two more boat drinks"

Cobbled together lyrics from Jimmy Buffett's song--"Boat Drinks"

[Rhuth]

Turning on Drew is exactly what the trolls want.

According to Wikipedia, in internet terminology, a troll is a person who enters an established community such as an online discussion forum and intentionally tries to cause disruption, often in the form of posting messages that are inflammatory, insulting, incorrect, inaccurate, absurd, or off-topic, with the intent of provoking a reaction from others.

There are entire sites dedicated to honing the skill of causing the disintegration of an online forum community. Trolls usually make themselves painfully obvious; Sexist comments on a nurse's forum, blasphemy in religious groups, and criticism of swinging on a bisexual forum.

As I stated in another thread (http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2797), I am of two minds on the subject of trolls. To be honest, I think that Drew gave it a good long time to make sure we had all our constructive ideas out, and that it was only down to personal attacks before he closed it.

It's tough for an administrator to make that call. I would have done it sooner. You would have done it later. It's Drew's playground, and he has given us an awful lot here, so I am happy to play by his very lenient rules.

[darkeyes]

And thats gonna stop em Rhuth??? Big question.

[Cerealk]

Why stop them? Isnt trolling similar to fearing something different? I dont want to sound psychanalitic (huh, tahts the word?), but they are humans too! Its not because someone is disrespectful that you have to shut him/her down from expressing and treat them in the same way. Its not that easy to understand anything different from ourselves. I too hate things and people. I have discrimination thoughts. But I know also, that these thoughts are there because Im human, just like them!

Im not saying trolling is right, nor that the mods have to let them be. There is order that must be kept in any community/society. Dont be too quick to judge someone, avoid repeating those damn mistakes we keep doing.

[Rhuth]

And thats gonna stop em Rhuth??? Big question.I didn't say I wanted trolls stopped. Sometimes they can prod some interesting constructive ideas out of the rest of us. I am just advocating the shutting down of the threads when the constructive criticism ceases.

If every thread a troll starts degenerates into personal attacks immediately, their IP address can be blocked if necessary. It takes an awful lot of time and energy to keep an eye on the threads and determine what is constructive and what is not. A judgement call was made on the thread itself when it became painfully obvious. Wait for the individuals to become painfully obvious before a judgement call is made on them.

In the meantime, we can all help by not feeding the trolls, and sending private and public messages of support to the people they attack.

[TorontoGuy2007]

this site tolerates lots of different things, but there are some guidlines that have bene pposted and should be followed. the pics and fat threads clearly violated the general concept of what this forum is supposed to be about, so i am glad to hear that they have been frozen or pulled.

let's try to stay on topic here people!

[flexuality]

Personally, I lean more towards what Darkeyes is saying. Not trying to take sides as such - there are many sides to this, not just two.

I don't see myself as "turning on Drew" or anyone else by stating my opinion.

If that was Drew's decision, to shut the threads down, then I respect that. It's his site. I'm just not convinced that is the way to go necessarily.

I do not believe that one can stop (nor that one should try to stop) anyone else from thinking, feeling or believing.

Yes, some of it was turning into a pissing match, but then there's no rule that say one must participate either. It may well have been a better idea to just leave the threads open and let it die out on it's own. The 'pics' thread was starting to do that . The anger in that one was diffusing and humor was beginning to set in.

It has been my experience that if you give someone enough rope, they'll hang themselves.

I think it is far better to learn how to disagree than it is to be taught to not disagree. I think that closing the threads sends the message that we're not capable of learning how to disagree constructively.

I do not think that was Drew's intended message, but it tends to be the message received anyway.

I agree that name calling is really nothing more than saying one has run out of logical arguments.

Heck, I have had some pretty nasty disagreements with people here that had they been "censored" and the two of us had not been allowed to continue the debate/argument then we would not have been able to resolve anything. Fortunately we were allowed to continue, and worked things out.

I believe that people only move forward when they're not comfortable. If one is comfortable, why move?

Kinda like the hound dog sleeping on the porch who sees a nice juicy steak just out of reach but doesn't get up to get it because he's actually sleeping on a nail and evey time he moves the nail hurts. As long as he stays where he is, he can't feel the nail, but as soon as he goes for what he wants that nail digs in.

If he just would lift himself up off the nail and put up with the pain temporarily, he'd not only get the steak, he'd be off the nail as well.

I do not support Daisy or anyone else who takes that kind of approach to people. Personally I think she needs some serious therapy.

But that's not the issue for me.

The issue as I see it, is how do we ever learn to effectively deal with that kind of stuff if we continuously fall back on getting someone to just "make it go away?"

There were a hell of a lot of people who jumped in there and supported each other against such absurd thinking, especially in the fat women thread. Personally, I found that rather refreshing and to be a positive thing.

[Rhuth]

I do not believe that one can stop (nor that one should try to stop) anyone else from thinking, feeling or believing.I would agree with this if the trolls thought, felt, or believed anything they wrote. By deffinition, a troll only says what they think will stir others to respond. This rarely ever falls in line with their actual opinions.

The difficulty is in making the judgement call as to who is a troll and who, as you say, just "needs therapy". Again, you made a fabulous point that "people will hang themselves if you give them enough rope".

All of us here have stated that we understand Drew does not think we are incapable of solving our own disagreements. Some have stated that his actions might be interpreted as such. I would guess that the only people who would loudly cry and complain of infringed free speach are not those of us discussing the matter here. It would only be the people who are more interested in causing problems than solving them.

[chook]

Personally I believe everyone should get a fair go but when you have a very opinionated person such as Daisy999 who thinks that the sun shines out of her arse and no one elses as far as body and beauty goes then I believe its very hard not to comment and get personal especially with the comments made about fat and ugly people, obviously she lives in a tight circle of friends where they are all up themselves with beauty.

Now while I dont disagree with Drew closing the forum I sort of look at this way these threads can also be a place to let off some steam and thats exactly what a few people were doing in my opinion....LOL but then as Drew knows I'm not one to walk away from a shit fight and before you all start jumping down my neck Drew has closed a forum because of me.........LOL so its nothing new. And dont forget in any "community" you will always have dissagreements no matter what the subject is........Just my :2cents: worth :tongue:

Cheers Chook :bigrin:

[julie]

...maybe threads that are becoming particularly nasty could have a 'two strikes and you are out' policy?...

... and if the same people continue to 'be impolite' then a 'three strikes and you are out policy' could be used for suspending membership for a cooling off period?

...perhaps these, 'off the top of my head' suggestions may feel a little more democratic than the 'big brother has spoken' system where threads just get closed without warning?

...these are only ideas... maybe we could flame these ideas though?



:2cents: julie :female: xxx

[spoiledangel860505]

Yes, some of it was turning into a pissing match, but then there's no rule that say one must participate either. It may well have been a better idea to just leave the threads open and let it die out on it's own. The 'pics' thread was starting to do that . The anger in that one was diffusing and humor was beginning to set in.


Yes it was becoming very funny, I was glad that he put in a request to close it because it would have gone on and on and on, but I am sad because I was just starting to have fun, I was looking forward to seeing his reply to our supposedly "stupid comments." At first, I was just trying to defend everyone that he was insulting, but then it become more like a "who can top this, competition." Which is not what this site is about.

Bottom line is, he broke the rules, the thread is closed, and whether it be bad karma or not, I think we need to move on with life.

[pecker]

I would start a real ass kicking thread,but I'm not a limb in your family tree and I know I would get ripped as some others have!!!

[Flounder1967]

I feel i need to step in and appoligize for the pics thread turning bad. I was just humoring myself not trying to make someone so mad. I see now that i was feeling the troll and feel terrible for waht i have started. I'm just not trusting of other poeple whom seem to want something for nothing on this site and think were all here to just get off.

The thread about the fat women had to be closed it was going to far and was getting really nasty. There was no way the pic thread could stay open if he closed the other thread. We all know that there is another thread that looks like it is going to get closed as well.

I'm glad Drew closed the thread because everytime i saw someone respond the previous thread made myself just feel worse. I know i have said somethings in thread and in the chat room that has made poeple and at times suprised that Drew and the admin of the site allow me to stay on this site. Also at time i suprise anyone can be freinds with me, but that is another subject all together.

I just want to leave on thought from the insiteful Rodney King "Can't we all just get along."

[flexuality]

I feel i need to step in and appoligize for the pics thread turning bad. I was just humoring myself not trying to make someone so mad. I see now that i was feeling the troll and feel terrible for waht i have started. I'm just not trusting of other poeple whom seem to want something for nothing on this site and think were all here to just get off.



I don't think you were completely responsible for that. We all posted of our own free will. :rolleyes:

[Solomon]

hhmmm i'm not so sure that it would be censorship eyes, i think it's a matter that Drew believes that the community should be protected from being violated by people that would do us harm.

Take Daisy for example, all she seems to enjoy is insulting other people that don't fit her criteria of a "prime human being". like doing her best to embarrass me or piss me off (good fuckin' luck, i don't care that much about Daisy's opinions about me lol! not to mention that i was well aware of this being a public forum when i posted my opinions).

I would prefer that she attacks me than people i've come to respect and care about, but still i don't have the authority that Drew does, and i can only do so much flag waving to these people.

These kinds of people just tend to have infectious attitudes, and Drew's absolutely right, it's makes for bad karma.

just my two cents :2cents:

[chook]

hhmmm i'm not so sure that it would be censorship eyes, i think it's a matter that Drew believes that the community should be protected from being violated by people that would do us harm.

Take Daisy for example, all she seems to enjoy is insulting other people that don't fit her criteria of a "prime human being". like doing her best to embarrass me or piss me off (good fuckin' luck, i don't care that much about Daisy's opinions about me lol! not to mention that i was well aware of this being a public forum when i posted my opinions).

I would prefer that she attacks me than people i've come to respect and care about, but still i don't have the authority that Drew does, and i can only do so much flag waving to these people.

These kinds of people just tend to have infectious attitudes, and Drew's absolutely right, it's makes for bad karma.

just my two cents :2cents:



Hey Sol dont take it to heart mate it aint worth the worry.....a bitch will always be a bitch.


Cheers Chook :bigrin:

[darkeyes]

hhmmm i'm not so sure that it would be censorship eyes, i think it's a matter that Drew believes that the community should be protected from being violated by people that would do us harm.

Take Daisy for example, all she seems to enjoy is insulting other people that don't fit her criteria of a "prime human being". like doing her best to embarrass me or piss me off (good fuckin' luck, i don't care that much about Daisy's opinions about me lol! not to mention that i was well aware of this being a public forum when i posted my opinions).

I would prefer that she attacks me than people i've come to respect and care about, but still i don't have the authority that Drew does, and i can only do so much flag waving to these people.

These kinds of people just tend to have infectious attitudes, and Drew's absolutely right, it's makes for bad karma.

just my two cents :2cents: An attempt to prevent discussion however well intentioned is censorship Sol. The world sees stuff with worse karma than in here published every day. Whats the problem then?

[meteast chick]

WHOA!!! STOP!!!

This is straight up ridiculous. We are all entitled to our opinions and I can see sides to both arguments. Basically...yeah it's censorship, but it's Drew's site and he can do what he pleases.

So far Drew has done nothing that what he feels is best for us and this site, and the outpouring of disgust from Daisy's thread was enough for me, and yeah I'll admit I posted to it.

So let's just all kiss and makeup shall we?
Fran, can I start with you hun?

luv and kisses,
xoxoxoxoxoxox
metaast

[darkeyes]

WHOA!!! STOP!!!

This is straight up ridiculous. We are all entitled to our opinions and I can see sides to both arguments. Basically...yeah it's censorship, but it's Drew's site and he can do what he pleases.

So far Drew has done nothing that what he feels is best for us and this site, and the outpouring of disgust from Daisy's thread was enough for me, and yeah I'll admit I posted to it.

So let's just all kiss and makeup shall we?
Fran, can I start with you hun?

luv and kisses,
xoxoxoxoxoxox
metaastMet u can start an finish wiv me if ya like hun...didn realise tho that we'd fallen out. Giggles

Kissies an huggles an a huge snog!!!

[Solomon]

ok, you might be right eyes, but i seriously doubt that this Daisy person is interested in discussion. not one of her postings actually addresses anything more than trying to be inflammatory, in a very manipulative way.

this person clearly just want's to abuse the people's trust here.

and the problem with that if i don't miss my guess is that Drew set up this site so that we could have a place that's free of that type of interactions with people.

you're right, we gotta deal with that stuff in the real world all the time, which i suspect is one of the reasons that Drew saw that there might be a real need for a site like this to get away from it, if only for a bit.

i know that i'm very grateful for a site that i can assume a measure of safety.

[bi-robin-calif]

It's too bad that the forum doesn't have an "ignore" button, the way chat has.

I've been in 2 abusive relationships in my life before I finally realized that no one can abuse you if you don't let them. I think the same thing applies to forums: no one can upset you unless you let them.

That being the case, if I see a forum thread that has been started by a particular person, I simply treat it as a troll and I don't even look at it. And if that same person happens to post a reply to another thread, I just skip the reply.

Simple, no?

[izzfan]

To be honest, I'm not surprised that the 'fat women' thread got closed down. It seemed quite controversial and I mean that was one of the reasons my post is earlier on it (eg: first page) because I though 'I better post on this before it gets shut down'. I suppose it was a good idea in some ways for Drew to shut it down because if he hadn't it would probably still be top of the thread list in a few months time, completely off topic and consisting of nothing more than a huge flame war. I mean Drew often has a reason for shutting a thread down and he usually leaves it for a bit to see what direction it is going in before shutting it down. So in that respect, I would say that it was pretty fair.... I mean the 'fat women' discussion had run its course and was starting to enter the realm of flaming.


ok, you might be right eyes, but i seriously doubt that this Daisy person is interested in discussion. not one of her postings actually addresses anything more than trying to be inflammatory, in a very manipulative way.

this person clearly just want's to abuse the people's trust here.

Yeah, I have to agree with you there Solomon, most [but not all] of her posts have looked a bit like trolling however, as I said in another post, they have provoked discussion which can be interesting.

Izzfan :flag3:

[ambi53mm]

It's too bad that the forum doesn't have an "ignore" button, the way chat has.
I've been in 2 abusive relationships in my life before I finally realized that no one can abuse you if you don't let them. I think the same thing applies to forums: no one can upset you unless you let them.
That being the case, if I see a forum thread that has been started by a particular person, I simply treat it as a troll and I don't even look at it. And if that same person happens to post a reply to another thread, I just skip the reply.
Simple, no?

Bi-robin,

If you click on the persons profile that you wish to ignore you'll see a spot their that allows you to add them to your ignore list. It will not prevent them from posting a thread, it will however edit out any reponse they have to that thread or any other thread.

Ambi :)

[bi-robin-calif]

Ambi,

Done! Thanks!

[meteast chick]

Met u can start an finish wiv me if ya like hun...didn realise tho that we'd fallen out. Giggles

Kissies an huggles an a huge snog!!!

Tee hee. hun we haven't fallen out...

I just wanted to take advantage of the opportunity silly!

More luv and kisses,
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo
meteast

[Daisy999]

Most westerners don't have any real idea of how the idea of karma works.

[Herbwoman39]

Most westerners don't have any real idea of how the idea of karma works.

Karma is just another word for the results of the actions one takes. No big secret there.

[Solomon]

Daisy,

that karma certainly works for you, those pounds outta shed in a MAX of ten years!

[Daisy999]

Daisy,

that karma certainly works for you, those pounds outta shed in a MAX of ten years!

oh sweetie! Don't you know I'm a bodhisattva? There's no karma/cycle of rebirth for me.

[darkeyes]

Tee hee. hun we haven't fallen out...

I just wanted to take advantage of the opportunity silly!

More luv and kisses,
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo
meteast


OOO yum...duz luv bein taken advantage of! giggles

lots more luv an kissies
:tong: :bigrin:

[biwords]

Your karma ran over my dogma...

[spoiledangel860505]

Your karma ran over my dogma...

Lol that's funny.....had to read it twice to get it lol