God and Sex

[flexuality]

I always found this to be a puzzling thing.

If God gave us sexuality and sex, then why would the church then go about giving out a list of all the things they consider to be wrong sexually?

Let me first clarify some words. Someone in another thread pointed out the difficulty with a "common language" when it comes to sensitive issues, and I thought that sounded like a really good idea.

These are just my "definitions" when I use these words:

Faith = what one believes

Religion = how one practices that belief

Church = Organized religion

Spirituality = NOT religion, kind of in between faith and thought

Bible = the canon, a collection of scriptures that does not include all scrpitures, but only what was decided to be included in 325 AD by Constantine and the Coucil of Nicea

Scriptures = usually the bible, but also any other scriptures not included in the bible

God = any higher power or force

Like I said, I found it really puzzling and have spent a lot of time researching this. I have never been a regular church goer and have not gained what knowledge I have of the bible from anyone else.

I am NOT gonna thump anyone with the bible! :) I hate Bible-thumpers.

I'm just looking for some good honest debate, input, ideas, different perspectives, whatever.

A lot (most? all?) of the Churches throw the "homosexuality is evil" thing at people (lumped together with anything other than straight) and it really bothered me for a long time. I believe in God (or whatever you want to call him/it/she/them) so for a long time I felt conflicted.

I finally started looking into these verses that supposedly "point out" how wrong anything other than straight is and I cannot find a single verse that actually states that. A lot of them APPEAR to, but if taken in context and finding out the meanings of the original words, rather than the english translation, what they ALL point out is that abusive acts are not gonna get you anywhere. They do NOT say that the acts themselves are "wrong" but rather the context in which they are performed is what is in question.

The end of Romans Chpt 1 is an often quoted section that the church would have us believe is condemning homosexuality in particular. And yet IMMEDIATELY following at the very beginning of the next chapter it says Judge not, lest you be judged.

When taken in context, the end of chapter 1 seems to be saying that abusive actions are not good and uses an example of sex. But it does not say that the acts are abusive, only that the thoughts and intent are abusive.

I also find it rather funny that the church (and a lot of bible translations) use the word "homosexuality" when that word wasn't even invented then.

I could go on for hours :) but I'll stop there for now.

I do not believe that God is against sexuality in any form as long as it is not abusive and is agreed to by ALL involved, physically or from a distance. (ie cheating on a spouse is not an agreement in my eyes)

Personally I think that organized religion is about the worst thing that ever happened to faith.

Someone once said "If I was God's lawyer, I'd advise him to sue for misrepresentation and defamation of character."

[DiamondDog]

I'm agnostic so I'm sure if there is a god/s, he/she/it/they don't care about the insignifigance of human sexuality.

[bm_jim]

My father once told me, "religon is a very personal thing". when it comes to religon, it is a single persons responsibility to read and study the scriptures and come to their own personal beliefs. Sadly many people believe the Church, or preachers, or elders, etc... can get them to heaven. I disagree that organized religon is the worst thing to ever happen. Many people need a support group for life and feel better with a church group for personal friendships and relations. The adage "you become the people you hang out with" is true. People who are going to church over all tend to want to do good, even if they sometimes falter. Before it is said... I know many people who do not go to an organized church that are very good people, not the statement. The statement was some people prefer the church support line. In a nutshell, I firmly believe people have to read and use their brain (alot of work for some, lol) and come to their own belief in God's directions, then have faith in his forgiveness when we are wrong.

[TorontoGuy2007]

based on your definitions, i can identify with the concept of faith and a higher power.

i personally don't have much use for scriptures. heck, why should i allow people from 325 AD to tell me how to live my life??

but for me, the concept or theory that a higher power "might" exist, and the theory that this higher power "has a plan" for me that is positive in nature, well, this serves as a positive motivational tool for me as i struggle thru life..

faith, in terms of what i believe, well, the values i live my life by are directly chosen by me.. but there are certainly many external factors, forces, and experiences that have played a role in developing and changing these values as i go thru life..

a scripture may say that it is wrong to be attracted to both genders. a scripture may also say that there is no such thing as transsexualism, but hey, i know what i feel. i know i feel trapped in the wrong gender.. i know i have no interest in sexual roles for males.. i feel 100% female and won't feel comfortable in a sexual setting until i can make that transition..

bottom line, my goal or value is to find happiness in life.. and the only way i can do this is to define my own goals and set out to achieve them..

i respect everyone who choses to be a member of organized religion. i respect those who chose to live their lives based on 2000 yr old scriptures.. but at the same time, i respect those who chose not to..

love, trust, respect. this all has to be earned on an individual basis..

[TorontoGuy2007]

the two things i don't like out of human behavior as far as religion is concerned is that i don't like when people:

1 - try to judge others even though the bible apparently says that God is the only one who should judge

2 - people who use "i'll be forgiven" as an excuse to get away with "sins" that they apparently don't do..

practice what you preach, or don't preach at all!

[NorthBiEast]

My father once told me, "religon is a very personal thing". when it comes to religon, it is a single persons responsibility to read and study the scriptures and come to their own personal beliefs. Sadly many people believe the Church, or preachers, or elders, etc... can get them to heaven. I disagree that organized religon is the worst thing to ever happen. Many people need a support group for life and feel better with a church group for personal friendships and relations. The adage "you become the people you hang out with" is true. People who are going to church over all tend to want to do good, even if they sometimes falter. Before it is said... I know many people who do not go to an organized church that are very good people, not the statement. The statement was some people prefer the church support line. In a nutshell, I firmly believe people have to read and use their brain (alot of work for some, lol) and come to their own belief in God's directions, then have faith in his forgiveness when we are wrong.

I could have written that myself, I think you are spot on!

In addition to that, I also found that some of the scripture, particularly the story of Sodam and Gomorrah, (which of course are often touted as THE proof that God hates gays) are completely misrepresented. In the towns,yes there were sexual acts occuring outside of wedlock. However, the reason that the towns were destroyed is that the townspaople had absolutely NO respect. In one town, they tried to rape the visiting angels because they were very attractive. In the other town, the rich men were trying to convince the angels that they should sleep with the men's daughters. The angels were extremely offended, not at the gay sex, but at the prevalance of sex in general, and the lack of love and respect for partners. :flag4:

[davenchelle06]

thanks we have often wondered about this as well.. we find ourselves afraid to go to our church after swinging with friends is this common or wrong? d and c

[12voltman59]

A good post and you have brought up points that "man" has been thinking about and discussing since we moved beyond being beings smarter than your average bear.

I consider myself to be spiritual and not religious---to me religions are really man created and if there really is a God or Gods--religion presumes a great deal for Him or them and puts them into a box.

Religion serves the needs or God or the Gods---not the other way around.

I am not a pure athetist or agnostic because I do believe there is more to our lives and existence than simply the purely physical--I believe this not because of the existence of the big three Abrahamic religions, but because of the history of all the "indigenous" peoples of this planet.

Studying them and the things they experienced in their practices make me think there is more to this life "than meets the eye."

I also think there is some kind of greater intelligence, being, conciousness or whatever for the fact that life was able to develop to the level to have some intelligence on this planet thanks to a whole series of things that make life possible on this little rock.

Our planet sits in a part of the galaxy that is removed from stars that could become gamma bursters or supernovae; our planet developed a favorable climate for life, it has a right balance of magenetism to provide protection and that same force that makes this happen also keeps the planet geologically alive, we have a star the right size and distance from us, we don't have very many threatening asteroids or comets in our planet's orbital path and a whole bunch of other things---mere coincidence we have such a planet??? I think not.

As far as religious condemnation of homosexuality is concerned--I do not know much of the bible, but have been told that in the same general area that lists this prohibition, there is a whole long list of "thou shall nots".
Just a few sentences down from this prohobition is another that says it is wrong to eat shellfish.

I guess that is true and if it is---well where are the born again types out rallying against the eating of oysters and such?---Hell, you'd think they would want to ban oyster eating since oysters are supposed to be good for the sex drive---it doesn't matter if its true or not--for many of those fundy Xtians--if their preachers tell them something--by God, it has to be right and true.

I really think that with those folks---you could pull a red car up on the stage of one of their mega churches--the preacher says the car is black and not red. He tells his followers that if they don't agree with him--they are being contrary to the dictates of God --so everyone agrees with him and says "right Brother preacher man--that is a black car on the stage next to you!!!!!

When it comes to homosexuality or any other subject you can name that these folks have a stand on--their position does not have to posess any truth or rationality with it--they have "the Word of God and their faith" and so they don't need to deal with reality.

[Solomon]

I don't have much use for churches, except that it keeps the bible thumpers out of my hair on Sundays lol!

It probably doesn't help with my social standing much, but I believe that it saves me soul.

I've never come across another book where they want to teach it verse by verse and to hell with the context, except for law books.

Never came across books that were so contradicting and yet billions use'em to harrass themselves with'em.

:cool: :cool:

[flexuality]

thanks we have often wondered about this as well.. we find ourselves afraid to go to our church after swinging with friends is this common or wrong? d and c

I''m not gonna judge whether swinging is right or wrong ( I am really starting to not like those words - "right" and "wrong" lol) but I do think that feeling afraid or guilty is common and not just around sex issues.

I just figure that none of us can hide from God (in whatever form that is) so he already knows. Much as I'd like to think sometimes that I can say "God, don't look for a minute okay?" I seriously doubt that a power that can create all things can be hidden from!

So I suppose that the only fear would be of other people finding out and judging us and then we feel unaccepted.

So far I seem to have managed to escape the lightning bolts and I have done some pretty "unacceptable" things - at least according to some. :rolleyes:

Unless you count my mother as a lightning bolt...lol

[sammie19]

The way I was raised was in a loving close knit and very progressive family. This however did not extend to either our neighbours or the local churches. In fact had it been up to them I would still be a virgin if not a nun, would be a nice little straight girl, engaged at least, and accept the traditional role of females within the family.

Luckily for me religion played little part in my life and my parents never tried to indocrinate me except with the dogma of respect and love for all life, most of all my own, and to avoid being too critical of those with whom I disagree and disapprove. While I may have found the latter somewhat harder to live up to I have adopted love of my fellow human beings and really taken it to heart, sometimes possibly too literally.

A friend of mine once said that to adopt a religion is to adopt self repression and surrender control of conscience to others. As I get a little older I increasingly see what she meant especially with regard to sexuality. Few religions encourage freedom of conscience in matters sexual and encourage the repression of the soul and nature. I refuse to have that happen to me. I would just lose too much self respect.

Whether there is a God or not I very much doubt and believe in something else my friend told me. As history is written by the victor so is the dogma and rules of religion. These are written by the victor and used as a control on the population at large by coercing them into conformity in fear of perpetual damnation should they fall by the way. She failed to add that the repression also caused great heartache and intense guilt among those who do stray from the fold with often catastrophic effects on person and family .

I refuse to conform to either the church's idea of what I should be or society's. I am me and will live my life in my way and will harm no one in the process.

[unum60]

Troubling subject if you listen to the church goers! However, if one examines the literature of the protestant churches you will find some interesting language. The great exodus from catholicism was partly due to sex and the fact that the priests could not keep their peckers in there pants (still a problem). The prostestants realized that "absolute power corrupts absolutley".

Anyway..... the language in the "Articles of Religion" (Anglican Faith - first to leave the Catholics and these articles can be found for all the major denominations, but named differently) speaks to this and says something like this: procreation is good, sex is neccessary for procreation <end> What is important here is "what is not said" or stated as wrong. These statements in the rules of religion are causing the development of things like --- the ordination of the Gay Bishop, same sex marriages etc., etc.

So, it is the damnation we here from the church goers - the supposed faithful, not the church. The problem is interpretation.

Gee -- I seem to be defending the church, oh shit -- let me clarify! I am sure there is a more prolific church basher than me, but I have yet to meet them. :)

Jason

[sammie19]

Churches interpret nothing. Those who run them decide on such things and these always have vested interests.

[Star Gazer]

I think many of the rules in the Bible were written for our health.

The Kosher Laws, many are about food safty and healthy foods.

Pork could have triconosis worms and were unclean, people did not know about that. Today food safty and H.A.C.C.P. keep food safe and clean for all of us.

There are many health issues with multiple sex partners. People did not know about preventing STDs however if they followed the code one man one woman the STDs could not spread.

Today we know how to prevent STDs, and we can treat many of the STDs that could not be treated years ago.

[Solomon]

I think the church interprets the bible to suit their vested interests, and the bible was probably assembled from very selected scriptures in order to defeat an enemy that the Roman empire was fighting with at the time.

I don't believe that anywhere in the bible does it refer to interpreting to suit thine own interests to be a good thing. The pharisees did that. So does every organized religion on the face of the planet that uses the bible.

Having said that, that doesn't take away from the fact that there is alot of wisdom found in the bible if it's interpreted properly. And I'm not trying to imply that organized religion is the big bad source of all evil on the earth, but they certainly have been the one of the most hypocritical, and self righteous.

[PolyLoveTriad]

[So, it is the damnation we here from the church goers - the supposed faithful, not the church. The problem is interpretation.

Gee -- I seem to be defending the church, oh shit -- let me clarify! I am sure there is a more prolific church basher than me, but I have yet to meet them.

Jason]

*GRIN* lol

I believe in God, the one in the Christian bible. I also believe that organized religion is the worse thing that ever happened to God. Each church has their own way of interpeting what they believe the bible means. Nothing in life is cut and dry.

I believe everyone has to do what they believe is the right thing for them no matter what it is. I dont look down on anyone, dont hate anyone and dont judge anyone.

Btw, I dont call myself or others "fag" please dont call me "bible thumper". Thanks

[julie]

[So, it is the damnation we here from the church goers - the supposed faithful, not the church. The problem is interpretation.

Gee -- I seem to be defending the church, oh shit -- let me clarify! I am sure there is a more prolific church basher than me, but I have yet to meet them.

Jason]

*GRIN* lol

I believe in God, the one in the Christian bible. I also believe that organized religion is the worse thing that ever happened to God. Each church has their own way of interpeting what they believe the bible means. Nothing in life is cut and dry.

I believe everyone has to do what they believe is the right thing for them no matter what it is. I dont look down on anyone, dont hate anyone and dont judge anyone.

Btw, I dont call myself or others "fag" please dont call me "bible thumper". Thanks

me too Jason.....

my Christian faith is the reason i am still alive.... the wisdom in The Bible continually inspires me...especially in its iterpretation of Love (1 Corinthians 13)... and because i believe their are two higher power authorities.. one being love and the other being fear.

sadly i share your opinion that organised religion could be easily interpreted as the worse thing that ever happened to God... because so much of organised religion seems hell bent on institutionalising folk... and IMHO that has nothing to do with love and so can only be underpinned by fear....

the shortest verse in the bible in in the gospels but i forget the reference...
it says.... Jesus wept.

i rather suspect he still does.

with love
julie :female:

[julie]

[So, it is the damnation we here from the church goers - the supposed faithful, not the church. The problem is interpretation.

Gee -- I seem to be defending the church, oh shit -- let me clarify! I am sure there is a more prolific church basher than me, but I have yet to meet them.

Jason]

*GRIN* lol

I believe in God, the one in the Christian bible. I also believe that organized religion is the worse thing that ever happened to God. Each church has their own way of interpeting what they believe the bible means. Nothing in life is cut and dry.

I believe everyone has to do what they believe is the right thing for them no matter what it is. I dont look down on anyone, dont hate anyone and dont judge anyone.

Btw, I dont call myself or others "fag" please dont call me "bible thumper". Thanks

me too Jason.....

my Christian faith is the reason i am still alive.... the wisdom in The Bible continually inspires me...especially in its iterpretation of Love

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1corinthians%2013;&version=31;...

and because i believe their are two higher power authorities.. one being love( or 'good') and the other being fear (or 'evil').

sadly i share your opinion that organised religion could be easily interpreted as the worse thing that ever happened to God... because so much of organised religion seems hell bent on institutionalising folk... and IMHO that has nothing to do with love and so can only be underpinned by fear....

the shortest verse in the bible in in the gospels but i forget the reference...
it says.... Jesus wept.

i rather suspect he still does.

with love
julie :female:

also call me a 'bible thumper' if you must, if it helps you feel safer, more secure having labelled me and put me in a box.. realistically though, your definition of me is just that...your definition. it may or may not fit with my self perception but it does not change who i am..

maybe you can ask yourselves is your judgement of me underpinned by love (of a bisexual woman who, like everyone else on here is just trying to make sense of her life).. or fear, because you take on board the stereotypes and tar each one of us ''churchgoers' with the same brush that calls all gay men paedophiles and all bisexuals 'disease spreaders'

just a thought.

j :female: :bipride: :three:

[Bi-ten]

God and sex,

Yes it would appear that these are mutually exclusive words. Organized religion has within it good intention. But sometimes it falls short because it tries to harness and explain the beauty and wisdom of God. It tries to place constraints, parameters and conditions on his love. Well his beauty and wisdom is beyond all comprehension, and his love for us is boundless!

Some may turn from organized religion because they feel they do not fit the rules. They are gay, bi, transexual, polyamourous...the list goes on. They may feel that they do not deserve his love, sometimes I have felt this way. I have a message for you, I know he loves us! I have experienced first hand the love of God, as I know many of you have!

Do not throw the baby out with the bath water, organized religion is limited, the love and compassion of God is not. Give yourself to him, do the best you can, love one another. Its that simple.

Happy Valentines day!

[Long Duck Dong]

lol....

I am gonna regret this, but this is my personal opinion about religion and christianity

the makeup of christianity is 99% unfounded.....

the bible is merely words in a book... that have been altered and changed so many times that the original truth is lost.... and most of it is influenced by the writers interpretation of events, then portrayed as the word of god, a god that exists for those that believe in god as the christians portray god to be.
when quoting the bible as a reference of source, you are quoting a bible, a few thousand years old, and quoting it as the absolute truth....
but the issue is that the bible is only true cos you believe it to be true...there is actually no truth to prove that the bible is the word of god at all...the only *truth* exists in the mind of the believer.... that does not make the bible, the word of god, it simply adds fuel to the fire when they use the bible to * preach to and condemn * the masses

the image of god is twisted, to portray a being that is both loving and caring, cruel and narrow minded, demanding total obedience and service, kiss his ass and go to heaven, be yourself and go to hell
what is the original image and nature of god ???

the nature of christianity has become corrupt and twisted.... rather than a faith where it is you and god, and let the world pass you by, it has become you and god versus the world, according to what you feel god wants for the world.
I have seen christian books that attack every aspect of life, including christianity itself
the end result of that, is not leading people to christ, but attacking everything that threatens your understanding of what it is to be christ like and to support and validate a persons own belief in god

heaven and hell ???

Sheol,the Old Testament word that is sometimes translated as Hell, only means “grave” by definition.....
The doctrine of hell is an invention of men and is nowhere found in the Hebrew or Greek manuscripts, in fact the word Sheol ( grave ) was replaced 31 times in the old testament.... adding a whole new meaning to bible verses
The concept of * hell * is actually a pagan term... not a christian term.... it existed before the bible was written

in revelation, it talks about the lake of fire and brimstone.... but revelations is a prophecy.....not a statement.... its symbolic, not actual fact....the bible is full of symbols, however the * lake of fire * symbol is interpreted as FACT, not symbolic

as a ex christian, current wiccan, current spiritualist, living with a gay friend, protesting right basic rights for all regardless of race, color or sexuality....I have been the target of numerous personal attacks by Christians and non christians
as I say to them * know me before you judge me *
I know about the christian walk, I have walked it, but less than 0.1% of the christian population has walked my path as a wiccan, cos my style of wiccan is not mainstream, therefore apply the mainstream wicca overview to my beliefs, will cause a mismatch.


Now I know about this stage, I must likely have annoyed a number of christians with my remarks in this post.....now, I am not attacking your beliefs, your christian walk or your understanding of god or christianity
a christian walk is a private and personal way of life.....
its when its used to attack my way of life, and my faith and beliefs that I get shitty, mainly cos a christian preaching to me about the * wrongness * of my beliefs, is using a book that is full of errors, falseness and inaccuracies

[LoveLion]

The biggest personal problem I have with that you have to agree with every aspect of their rules and views to call yourself one of them. I could not find a religion if I wanted to, because there is no way I am going to agree with everything each one states. You cant be a Catholic if you beleive homosexuality is ok. You cant be Christian if you are pro-choice. etc. etc. The reason religeon is failing is that they refuse to adjust to the changing times. The hight of Christianity was the middle ages for god sake, and they expect us to live and but faith into the same ideals that were imbraced back then? Of course not!

The main stream religions where all created thousands of years ago and refuse to progress. IF there was an active progressive religion out there, one that is not afraid to change their views, ceremonies, and would adjust the the needs of todays society, that religion would not be failing like the others are in the west.

And thats what religion is all about after all. Fufilling the needs of society. It always has been about that. The whole idea of a higher power comes from the human need for meaning to life and answers to the questions that cant be answered. It became sacrilegious to eat pork by many religions because pork was spreading diseases, another example of religion fulfilling a need of society.

The problem with religions today is that there are still trying to fulfill needs that are long gone. They are formated to fulfill the needs of the times they were created in, but have refused to change themselves as the needs of society changes. Pork is no longer a threat. Our society doesn't NEED that ban anymore, yet still it is in place. Science has answered a lot of the questions we couldn't before so we dont NEED religion to fill in those gaps. Yet still the religions remain faithful to ideas that have been scientifically proven false. (Heck! The Catholic Church didnt admit they were wrong about the universe being geocentric until the 1920s!!!).

Today we have new needs and religion is failing to fulfill them, which is why it is failing. Why go to church when it is not helping you at all? Why beleive in something when there is proof it is wrong right in front of you? Why bother trying to fulfill a need that you dont even have?

We still do have needs however. We have a need for social acceptance. We need religion to teach accepting homosexuality rather than rejecting it. We need a religion that deals with aids, social and governmental corruption, poverty, and yes, one that still attempts to anwser the great mysteries of the universe. But we need a religion that bases their answers to these questions on the science and one that is not afraid to change them if they are proven wrong. Isnt the whole point to find truth? If so then why keep believing in something that is proven false? its laughable that so many (or all I should say) religions dont.

When it comes to the whole "anti-sex" position of modern religions, I have commented my position on this before, but I will go off again here.

The Greeks.

Ancient Greece is the foundation of all western society. We admire their social system, their democracy, their art, their philosophy, their mathematics, their science. Our entire society is based on theirs. The Greeks were even more advanced then our society in many ways, and sex was one of them. They accepted homosexuality as a natural part of human nature. It was considered normal for men to be with each other.

If all our society is based on the Greeks, then shouldnt our views on sex be based on theirs too? If everything else is right in their society, then arnt their views on sex the right ones too? I think so.

So why dont we have them? Well somewhere along the line religion came under the control of prudes one way or another and it hasnt been the same scine. Its a shame really, but maybe we are finally starting to move in that direction again.

[whattodo]

I have come to a point in my life where I do believe in a higher-power, but I do not believe all that the bible says. As mentioned earlier, the bible is several thousands of years old. There have been many men, picking through it and translating it. And Translation is not an exact art. You can get an proximate meaning from the translation but it is not the same as it would be in the first writing. So the bible for that reason is not completely true.

I think that we are here to discover ourselves and to be able to over come fears and stigmas. When we can accept ourselves for who we are and don't let anyone stop us from being happy, we are as close to being what we are meant to be.

I believe that our souls are reincarnated, throughout time, and that some souls have split to make more and different people. I believe that my soul is a combination of two souls. One is male and likes females and the other is female and likes males. That is why I like both sexes. I hope that in the future everyone will be accepted as who they are, and people will stop telling everyone that they will go to "hell" just because they love the wrong person. How can Love be wrong if it is pure and shared?

Just my thoughts

[coyotedude]

One of the things I find ironic about these discussions is the overwhelming focus on Christianity - both positive and negative. Even I have bought into this in my own posts. Yet Christianity is just one tradition among many. And Christians themselves can't agree on the basic tenets of their own faith.

Let me reiterate: all religion is not Christianity. Christianity is one religion among many.

For me, I have no particular problem with the notion of science and spirituality co-existing in the modern world. In fact, I think that science relieves much of the burden from spirituality to answer questions that spirituality really isn't equipped to handle. The Bible, the Koran, the Hindu and Buddhist scriptures may be amazing reading for some, but they make lousy science textbooks.

For its part, however, even mighty Science with its awesome analytical power cannot answer some of the basic questions of human existence. As someone noted in another thread, science can help us understand the consequences of our decisions, but science alone cannot tell us what decisions we should or should not make. Even for an atheist devoted to the practice of reason, the fact is that morals, values, and beliefs are not necessarily logical - yet even atheists depend heavily on those things when making choices.

Or how about the question, "what is love?" Science can tell us how our brains process love and how love gives our species certain evolutionary advantages, but the question "What is love?" is a big fat divide-by-zero as far as the scientific paradigm is concerned. Same with freedom, justice, mercy....

That's why science alone is insufficient for our needs, even in the modern world. We need other tools as well, such as art, the humanities, philosophy - even religion and spirituality.

And I'm rambling again.... sigh.....

Peace

[darkeyes]

Throughout this thread it is apparent that for most of us there is a basic need. That need is that we are not alone. That somehow there is a being of such power, that it is to Him that we owe our existence. Whether this be within an organised or other framework, somehow it is just impossible for the cosmos to exist through natural laws.

I have no problem with people believing in their God. Whatever form their belief takes is everyones own affair. Nor have I an problem with people seeking to persuade others that their view of their God is the right one. Throughout, people have pointed out that within Christianity there are so many questions, innacuracies and problems with one form of religion or other. This is fine also, for this too is a valid form to put forward belief.

My standpoint is simple. There is no God. God was created in mans own image. God was created in primitive superstitious times to expain why we are, and as a form of control over small groups of tribal people. As humanity progressed to a more advanced level, still with superstition dominating his whole existence, powerful people, predominantly men increasingly refined and made more sophisticated various forms of religion, again to expain why we are, but increasingly as a form to control a more diverse population. And thus it continued even to the present day.

Belief in a God, whichever God has created much tragedy around the world. This does not mean God does not exist, but it does mean that mankind, and those who control mankind have used it as a form of oppression and destruction of that which they do not understand or agree. The present "war on terror" is but a continuation of this.

To say that science is insufficient to explain our existence is substantially true. We do not, and shall never know the answer to everything. Even should humanity last till the last star flickers to extinction we shall never know everything. This does not mean that there is no answer. It simply means that we have not found it. Our imagination is not boundless, but acts within the restraints of the time. But as each generation passes we learn a little more and answers are forthcoming which increase our understanding of our brief existence.

Why are we so insecure? Can we not shake loose the superstitions of primitive man once and for all and stride forward with confidence knowing that we live not to please some great omnipotent creator, but because we just are, and it is our obligation to better our world for those to follow by using that imagination and intelligence to learn all we can about "life the universe and everything".

[NorthBiEast]

Be it the Word of God, or the Hand of Man, to me, the Bible is a bunch of "common sense" rules. Taken in their cultural context, it makes sense. For example, "don't eat pork"; People today think that's pretty dumb, but back in the day, they didn't understand that pork - the cities' garbage men - carried bacteria and parasites that killed. Avoiding pork was a life saving technique.

The whole book can be summed up into 4 words. BE KIND TO OTHERS! And dangles the carrot of Heaven and the threat of Hell to make it happen.

The little I know about other religions makes me think that their basic premises are the same.

:2cents:

[izzfan]

Ah, sex and religion two things that seem mutually exclusive. I mean, many of these Christians who will use the bible to condemn homosexuality/bisexuality fail to research/examine the context behind parts of the bible..... also, the bible is a book in translation [from aramaic, hebrew, greek, latin etc...] and often shades of meaning get lost in translation. I mean, if they even looked in the animal kingdom they would see that bisexual activity is pretty much the norm rather than the 'unnatural heterosexual lifestyle' which they seem to be 'promoting' [sorry, couldn't resist an opportunity to poke fun at the way homophobic/biphobic fundamentalists refer to sexuality].
As for organised religion, I find it hard to take seriously just purely because Christianity has become so westernised these days even though it originated in the middle east and it is bound to have been distorted in this process. Also, the bible as a single book wasn't compiled until something like the 3rd century lol. Also, some Christians don't exactly help when it comes to taking their religion seriously [take a look at www.chick.com for an example of this - especially the numerous paranoid conspiracy theories and crazy ideas this guy comes up with lol]. However, I think that there is a difference between organised religion and personal belief and while I may condemn orgainsed religion due to the political , homophobic/biphobic etc... aspects of it I am a supporter of the right to freedom of personal beliefs. Personally, I am pretty much an atheist [probably technically agnostic but at the very atheist end of agnostic].

Just my :2cents:

Izzfan :flag3:

[Solomon]

I'm not sure why the pork thing keeps being brought up, because it's not like bacteria and parasites are limited to just pork. There's alot of not good stuff in every food like e coli, mad cow disease, and botulism just to name a few.

Those aren't new diseases or oganisms either, and yet some cling to the bible in singling out pork to be bad for ya? Seems to me then that we just shouldn't eat at all.

[julie]

I'm not sure why the pork thing keeps being brought up, because it's not like bacteria and parasites are limited to just pork. There's alot of not good stuff in every food like e coli, mad cow disease, and botulism just to name a few.

Those aren't new diseases or oganisms either, and yet some cling to the bible in singling out pork to be bad for ya? Seems to me then that we just shouldn't eat at all.

..how easy it seems for folk to get bogged down with random bits of the bible... both those who do believe it to be 'authentic'...and those who believe it to be 'irrelevent' seem to frequently share this common trait :rolleyes:

a more creative approach than 'defending each sentence in its literal context' or the 'attempting to crack a nut with a sledgehammer in order to disprove it' approach might be to perhaps look to explore underlying themes which could also easily be interpreted as simply some really rather crude, basic health and safety guidelines.

...whether you agree or not with Christianity/any spiritual direction, and its relevence today is down to personal reasons... but why be so harsh and dare i say, discriminatory on folk who have very different perceptions. it really does just boil down to personal faith as so much remains unproven one way or another...

...i have a very personal and pertinent Christian faith... my very dear and close friend tom_uk chooses not to dignify his complete lack of faith with a name... yet spiritually, sexually and emotionally i have never experienced such trusting intimacy with another person... and i believe that stems from us both respecting each others beliefs as just that..beliefs.

we see no reason or need to try to convince one another that they are wrong.. why would we?... we do both seem comfortable to accept the all equal, all different stance..and maybe one day we will know and understand so much more... but for now, maybe we can just focus on the bigger picture and celebrate what a diverse community we are priviledged to belong to.

a few more
:2cents:
j :female: x

:bipride: :color: :lokai: :grouphug: :soapbox:

[Solomon]

First, beliefs are actually THE most important things we have and probably the only things we can actually own 100%.

Second, I look to interpret correctly, not to just follow the dogmas laid out by the powers that be.

Third, I look forward to tossing ideas back and forth and actually looking at things from different perspectives and seeing what makes the most sense, cuz otherwise we stay stagnant.

I suspect that since the bible also says somewhere that you shouldn't throw your pearls in front of swine, I truly wonder if the passage refering to the eating of pork says something similar along those lines instead of simply being the first FDA.

[flexuality]

I knew I needed to clarify some definitions up front. It would seem I forgot one though.

Bible Thumper - someone who uses the bible to judge others without thinking about what they are saying.

Like people who have pointed out to me some verse and put a big black X on me just because they decided that I broke a rule or something.

[flexuality]

I think everyone has the right to think, feel and believe whatever they chose. :)

So for what it's worth....

Do I think the bible is the word of God? How the heck can anyone know that for sure? I don't think it can be proven one way or the other, and truthfully, I am not convinced that it even matters. I think the bible does contain a lot of wisdom but I do NOT think it is a book of rules, nor was it ever intended to be a book of rules.

The only reason I even quote the bible on occasion is because I think that it has been so MIS-quoted and used to judge people based on that mis-interpretation. There are a lot of people in this world feeling unnecessary guilt because of the influence churches/religon has on society's views. I used to be one of them.

I find it very interesting that the "jesus story" in the bible is not by any means the first "jesus story." The ancient egyptians (among many others) aslo had a jesus story that is almost identical to the one in the bible, right down to Horace (as opposed to Jesus) walking on water, curing sickness, changing water into wine, being crucified and rising three days later.

Another rather interesting fact, is that the bible version is the only version that only has a Mr. God. All the others have a Mr. and Mrs. God.

Quite often, those claiming to be Christians (I'm not sure anymore what constitues a "Christian" - it's gotten kind of blurred over the centuries) are opposed to Paganism. It's rather funny when one realizes the amount of "pagan" symbols Christianity uses! The star people put on top of there Chritmas tree is a pagan symbol. Matter of fact, the Christmas tree finds it origin in paganism! So does Easter and many other things as well.

This whole idea of heaven and hell as some "waiting place" for us....I simply do not believe that "God" is sitting somewhere with a golf score card waiting to see if I pass or fail.

I do believe that there are priciples in life that are unbendable and that we cannot break these principles, we can only break ourselves against them. These are very different from rules.

I agree with Solomon (my husband that is) that our beliefs are the most important things we own.

I'm going to stop there for now....I've probably ticked off someone, it's hard not to with this kind of subject! It is not my intention to attack anyone or anyone's beliefs. I find that the debate really gets me thinking.....and that's good, I think...lol :rolleyes:

[julie]

I think everyone has the right to think, feel and believe whatever they chose. :)

So for what it's worth....

Do I think the bible is the word of God? How the heck can anyone know that for sure? I don't think it can be proven one way or the other, and truthfully, I am not convinced that it even matters. I think the bible does contain a lot of wisdom but I do NOT think it is a book of rules, nor was it ever intended to be a book of rules.

The only reason I even quote the bible on occasion is because I think that it has been so MIS-quoted and used to judge people based on that mis-interpretation. There are a lot of people in this world feeling unnecessary guilt because of the influence churches/religon has on society's views. I used to be one of them.

I find it very interesting that the "jesus story" in the bible is not by any means the first "jesus story." The ancient egyptians (among many others) aslo had a jesus story that is almost identical to the one in the bible, right down to Horace (as opposed to Jesus) walking on water, curing sickness, changing water into wine, being crucified and rising three days later.

Another rather interesting fact, is that the bible version is the only version that only has a Mr. God. All the others have a Mr. and Mrs. God.

Quite often, those claiming to be Christians (I'm not sure anymore what constitues a "Christian" - it's gotten kind of blurred over the centuries) are opposed to Paganism. It's rather funny when one realizes the amount of "pagan" symbols Christianity uses! The star people put on top of there Chritmas tree is a pagan symbol. Matter of fact, the Christmas tree finds it origin in paganism! So does Easter and many other things as well.

This whole idea of heaven and hell as some "waiting place" for us....I simply do not believe that "God" is sitting somewhere with a golf score card waiting to see if I pass or fail.

I do believe that there are priciples in life that are unbendable and that we cannot break these principles, we can only break ourselves against them. These are very different from rules.

I agree with Solomon (my husband that is) that our beliefs are the most important things we own.

I'm going to stop there for now....I've probably ticked off someone, it's hard not to with this kind of subject! It is not my intention to attack anyone or anyone's beliefs. I find that the debate really gets me thinking.....and that's good, I think...lol :rolleyes:

Hey thanks for that post Flex... i feel informed by your wisdom and, am very intrigued by some of the weird and wonderful inconsistances you bring to light... Mr and Mrs God...i do believe this may be implicit in the Christian scripures (we are made in Gods image etc etc) but it certainly isnt explict.. i'm guessing this to have been lost in translation long ago with all those interpreters with a certain patriarchial agenda?

Jesus? Horace?.. i've never heard that one before, but hey, who knows? Horace really doesnt have quite the same ring to it though..... 'Horace is Lord' hmm different! (Julie giggles!)

So much of what you say about the Bible not being a book of rules sits very comfortably with my own personal spiritual experiences... especially about some of the wisdom in there.. i quoted '1 Corinthians 13' earlier in this thread and make no apologies for doing so... it is my belief this stands alone as a definition of Love...

those words are, to me, probably the wisest words i have ever read... and i certainly dont believe their wisdom is exclusive to any particular group, whether one of the 'big five' religions/faith communities, pagans, scientists or whatever... it makes no difference to me... many things may divide us.... but what binds us is our common experience of our humanity....

my experience of people who display such virtues as, for example, a loving spirit is..they are just beautiful people i choose to associate with.

Great thread Flex and Sol....

love Julie
:female: x

[bicomrade]

IMO, Religion is a means by which a few can control the masses thru fear and guilt. Sex is one of religions primary targets especially the monotheistic faiths ( ie islam, christianity and Judaism). Being able to control and manipulate someone's sex life is very powerful. I think society needs some rules but subscribing to a bunch of power mad priests or Imams or gurus whose knowledge consists of texts written in the bronze age is asking for trouble. ahhhhh now I feel better...

[12voltman59]

I am no longer a member or follower of any religion myself--I think that religions want to put not only humankind in a box--but God as well.

I do not need a bunch of men in fancy robes sitting in their fortress palace in Rome, nor do I need some preacher with his southern accent, and bad hairdo, walking around up on the stage of his mega-church, presuming that he has some direct line to the almighty---to tell me what God wants for me and all of that hooeeey!!!

I also don't want them to try to take over the reigns of power in this country and turn it into a great big Disney land for Jesus, run according to their rules about how things are and should be.

Their "good book" may contain some good lessons, be a good history of the time, place and people who wrote the various books--but I don't believe it is some kind of grand master template for the way we live our lives and I don't trust the use of the book since throughout history---so often those words have been used to justify some very evil doings.

I say this to the bible thumping crowd:

I have my way of knowing God--don't presume your way is good and right and the only way for me and I won't presume my way is good and right and the only way it should be for you as well--and I won't presume that if you don't follow my version of God's plan that you will burn in the deepest pit of hell -so don't presume for God that I will meet with such a fate because I don't conform your view of God and his ways.

This is the essence of religious freedom here in America----don't really go fucking around with that--because that is when I get really pissed off and ya don't want that!!!!

[flexuality]

Our planet sits in a part of the galaxy that is removed from stars that could become gamma bursters or supernovae; our planet developed a favorable climate for life, it has a right balance of magenetism to provide protection and that same force that makes this happen also keeps the planet geologically alive, we have a star the right size and distance from us, we don't have very many threatening asteroids or comets in our planet's orbital path and a whole bunch of other things---mere coincidence we have such a planet??? I think not.



And this galaxy is but one of BILLIONS of galaxies.

Which would get me off on a whole other topic. There are some religions that promote the idea that this is the ONLY planet in the entire universe with life on it.

They ask "How can there be life on another planet?" and I ask "How can there not be?"

If there's no other planets with life, then I think that would be an awful waste of space!
http://www.geocities.com/leeforgy/stars.gif

[flexuality]

-so don't presume for God

I like that line! (writing it down :) )

No wonder I never liked going to church - not that I ever did that regularly, but the times I did I could never put my finger on what it was that "bugged" me about it - til now!

Thanks! :)