Bi and Poly Etiquette

[spartca]

I have to echo what a few folks have said about being male in the "poly community"... it can be difficult, single or not. Of course, unless you're some kind of porn star, VIP, or Jedi mind master. It seems like a reasonable notion that folks interested in moving away from the patriarchal system of monogamous heterosexual marriage would also be interested in gender equality. Did the poly community somehow miss the whole feminist movement? Men competing over women - not exactly a new idea folks!

Also being queer can be more difficult, as some have mentioned... depending on what being queer looks like for you. Hot bi babes who are female and femme are in high demand, but fey men and butch women often don't fit in. The usual exceptions apply here for porn stars, VIPs, and effective practitioners of NLP. You would think that queer folks and poly folks would be natural allies... right? Women gone wild - poly style! We're not really breaking any new ground here either folks.

The ironies of course, abound. Just this past week there was a bisexual-only kink play party in SF, but that means you pretty much have to be both bi and kinky to attend. If you're bi and vanilla, or kinky and monosexual...

So yes, sadly, the "poly community" can actually amplify mainstream prejudice and p.c. divisiveness while paying a lot of lip service to the inclusion of diversity.

Politics of this sort can ironically play a bigger part in the poly community than in the mainstream, because the community is so small and incestuous. For example, while most poly-identified people can talk your ear off about radical honesty and community building, there are a lot of folks out there who consciously and intentionally participate in violating other folks' poly agreements. How this is honest and builds community eludes me entirely.

After 10 years of watching this happen in poly communities, I would even venture to say that the whole honesty thing is just something they tell the tourists - makes them easier to fleece.

A code of honest and ethical behavior in the "poly" "community" must be addressed if we're ever going to take ourselves seriously, or expect anyone else to do the same. This is why discussions arond shared definitions and ethical standards in the community (etiquette) should be taken very seriously.

It's just a shame that I feel I have more to fear from the poly community than from mainstream folks when it comes to watching my back. It's sad, but experience has shown this to be true in my life as a poly bisexual male.

I don't want to give up on the poly community or way of life, but I'm not sure if there really is a supportive "community" out there for me. Mostly what I see are dating pools filled with too high a percentage of selfish opportunists. What I would like to see is a community of polyfolk who support my relationships, instead of consistently working towards stealing my partners, chukking me under the bus of male competition, or demeaning or marginalizing me as a bisexual male.

Am I alone on this? Is this too high an expectation for progress in my lifetime? Is it time for me to get a gun rack, join the NRA, and vote Republican? At least they're honest about their intention to fuck you up and steal your shit, especially if you're queer ;)

The sad truth is that I probably would have had a much happier life, on some level, if I had just lied to my first wife about being bisexual and nonmonogamously inclined, had a family young and under false pretenses, cheated the whole time, and then got a no-fault divorce once the kids were launched, which would have been right about now. Instead I got to be honest and live an authentic life. Yay.

What do you all have to say on the subject?

[Solomon]

Frankly, it sounds to me like on the one hand you want to have a committed monogomous relationship with more than one person at a time lol.

I do however agree that everyone would practice integrity in an ideal world, but that's a personal decision and to go to war against others for that.... well, some wars just can't be won ya know?

Freedom does have a price, either your time and/or money.

[diamond_tether]

The ironies of course, abound. Just this past week there was a bisexual-only kink play party in SF, but that means you pretty much have to be both bi and kinky to attend. If you're bi and vanilla, or kinky and monosexual...

So yes, sadly, the "poly community" can actually amplify mainstream prejudice and p.c. divisiveness while paying a lot of lip service to the inclusion of diversity.


You're right, they can, but things like that shouldn't be taken as anything more or less than what they are; a particular event designed for a particular type of play. It doesn't mean that's the only kind of event people go to - we know bi folks who do straight swinger events no problem, but we have no desire to go to one because we want more integrated play. We accept single playmates and they typically don't. We are all into kink, but also do events that are purely vanilla. Which one of us is more open and closed? Which one of us is paying lip service to diversity yet keeping the divisiveness of the mainstream?

With the selective nature of people and their behvaior - Everyone feels an inherent need to look out for themselves and it's far too rare that people out there really want to give anyone else a break. Unfortunately, the bottom of that pecking order tends to be single males. I spent time as both a straight and bi swinger, anyone who has can easily attest to how much of a trial that can be most of the time.

Speaking for the kink community specifically, vanilla folks look at kinky people cock-eyed and crazy. They've had to take their parties out of the mainstream since that scene began. Bi folks catch hell from both straight and gay ones, so they either waffle between or try and find some of their own mates to keep time with. So, to be such a small niche and wanting to explore that, it makes logical sense to design a party in an attempt to get a more specific kind of play/enviornment. Unfortunately, those not into that combination of scenes are just out of luck. The folks who want the kink aren't necessarily going to be able to display it at other parties, so if they prefer sex with it - then they have their own. It doesn't mean those folks left out have no other options, though, they find somewhere else to play just like the kink folks had to.

And, just because people are willing to step outside boundaries in one way, doesn't at all mean they're willing to do so in other ways; one can't really expect anything like that of people as whole. If you do, you're going to frustrate the hell out of yourself. It'll end in the unexplainable aggrivation of not being able to figure out questions like how a guy can adamantly claim to be sexually 'open' and allow other women into his bed, but will never touch or accept another man in it while expecting his wife to stay home and keep house. It's just how things work with him.

[spartca]

Frankly, it sounds to me like on the one hand you want to have a committed monogomous relationship with more than one person at a time lol.

I do however agree that everyone would practice integrity in an ideal world, but that's a personal decision and to go to war against others for that.... well, some wars just can't be won ya know?

Freedom does have a price, either your time and/or money.

And on the other hand...? I don't get it. Is that the sound of one hand clapping lol?

Yes, I am polyamorous and like to have committed relationships with more than one person at a time. Is that what you were referring to? The "poly" part?

[Solomon]

uuum yeah, I was referring to the poly part. was sorta my way of saying welcome to life that sometimes it just doesn't work out the way we want, hence the follow up about integrity part...

Would also submit that maybe the reason that you're thinking that it's political is that relationships confuse you... apparently so do politics, therefore it would be simple to assume that they are one and the same... which they're not.

politics would be mudslinging in order to get into a political or work office.

relationships would be mudslinging (not all mudslinging is bad btw <G>) in order to get laid lol!

I could be way off base as I'm not familiar with the poly community or your specific situation and I don't want to be offensive and apologize if I sound that way.

Truth be known, my hat's off to anyone that can maintain a committed relationship with more than one person at a time, it takes a tremendous amount of energy and time with just one spouse let alone two or more.

[spartca]

I could be way off base as I'm not familiar with the poly community or your specific situation and I don't want to be offensive and apologize if I sound that way.

Truth be known, my hat's off to anyone that can maintain a committed relationship with more than one person at a time, it takes a tremendous amount of energy and time with just one spouse let alone two or more.

Hey no problem Solomon :)

There are lots of ways to be poly - some folks have more than one primary partner or spouse, as you say; others have different levels of commitment; still others are more "fluid" and don't define their commitments this way at all.

Personally I have one primary of about a year (just "engaged" and thinking about kids), one secondary of about eight months, a and a few regular but rare tertiary connections as well. I'm an example of a "hierarchically-organized" poly person who likes such labels. Clearly defining commitments seems to work well for me.

[Daisy999]

Polyamory is a bigger sham than swinging.

At least with swinging people are honest and just say that they want to have sex with you, and they're clear that it's ONLY sex and that it won't toy with your emotions.

With polyamory people will slut around and say that they're in "love" with you or open and honest when my BF and I have found that people aren't honest and lots of people DO lie and sleep behind their partner's back, or just want to be a homewrecker and split a commited couple apart. I've met people who are poly who acted like they're "above" or "better than" people who are closed/exclusive in their relationships. Also people talk about triads or relationships with a 3rd person but they're not willing to commit or seriously talk about it when it comes down to it.

There's nothing new and revolutionary, life changing, or special about polyamory despite what authors of such poly manifestos such as 'The ethical slut' will tell you.

It's simply having an open relationship and people (no matter their orientation) have been doing this long before today, for decades and hundreds of years before 2007.

It seems to me like people who are self proclaimed poly have to tell you all the time that they are just to validate it to themselves about how revolutionary it is, when it's only having an open relationship. It's about experiencing novelty, something different than a closed/exclusive relationship nothing more.

[darkeyes]

*snoftly snoozes*

[Rhuth]

I jokingly call spartca “creepy guy” in real life. I find it humorous because he is just about as opposite of creepy as you can get. He always gets prejudicial treatment as if he were creepy solely on the fact that he is a single male.

Most sex groups around here will only let a man in if he has a female date or if he has pulled constant political maneuvers to gain himself an exemption. I on the other hand, can go anywhere I please, and have invitations for more.

The irony of all this is that on a relationship level, spartca is much more desirable than I am. I am a landmine of changing rules and emotional situations. He is steady, calm, and perfectly capable of going with the flow. And he is so damn HOT! *ahrem*

It’s not fair that men are presumed creepy until proven politically capable. The vast majority of men are perfect gentlemen, and the small minorities of creeps get all the attention.

When bi girls see spartca, our reaction is to agree he is adorable and fall into fantasies of sharing him. Do bi guys do the same when they both see a girl they like, or do they fall into the competition thing you were talking about?

[Solomon]

Polyamory is a bigger sham than swinging.

At least with swinging people are honest and just say that they want to have sex with you, and they're clear that it's ONLY sex and that it won't toy with your emotions.

With polyamory people will slut around and say that they're in "love" with you or open and honest when my BF and I have found that people aren't honest and lots of people DO lie and sleep behind their partner's back, or just want to be a homewrecker and split a commited couple apart. I've met people who are poly who acted like they're "above" or "better than" people who are closed/exclusive in their relationships. Also people talk about triads or relationships with a 3rd person but they're not willing to commit or seriously talk about it when it comes down to it.

There's nothing new and revolutionary, life changing, or special about polyamory despite what authors of such poly manifestos such as 'The ethical slut' will tell you.

It's simply having an open relationship and people (no matter their orientation) have been doing this long before today, for decades and hundreds of years before 2007.

It seems to me like people who are self proclaimed poly have to tell you all the time that they are just to validate it to themselves about how revolutionary it is, when it's only having an open relationship. It's about experiencing novelty, something different than a closed/exclusive relationship nothing more.

so you're jealous?

[bi-robin-calif]

Bi folks catch hell from both straight and gay ones, so they either waffle between or try and find some of their own mates to keep time with.

Which, in a nutshell, sums up why I'm so very grateful for having found this forum: I'm accepted for who I am, without judgement.

[Daisy999]

I jokingly call spartca “creepy guy” in real life. I find it humorous because he is just about as opposite of creepy as you can get. He always gets prejudicial treatment as if he were creepy solely on the fact that he is a single male.

Most sex groups around here will only let a man in if he has a female date or if he has pulled constant political maneuvers to gain himself an exemption. I on the other hand, can go anywhere I please, and have invitations for more.

The irony of all this is that on a relationship level, spartca is much more desirable than I am. I am a landmine of changing rules and emotional situations. He is steady, calm, and perfectly capable of going with the flow. And he is so damn HOT! *ahrem*

It’s not fair that men are presumed creepy until proven politically capable. The vast majority of men are perfect gentlemen, and the small minorities of creeps get all the attention.

When bi girls see spartca, our reaction is to agree he is adorable and fall into fantasies of sharing him. Do bi guys do the same when they both see a girl they like, or do they fall into the competition thing you were talking about?

please don't bring, or mention your drama and sexual relationships with others on this board to this board.

It's bad enough when someone wrote about their EX partner and then their partner and housemate kept flaming them in the "exs are a pain" thread.

[TaylorMade]

please don't bring, or mention your drama and sexual relationships with others on this board to this board.

It's bad enough when someone wrote about their EX partner and then their partner and housemate kept flaming them in the "exs are a pain" thread.

Uhm.... and don't bring your preconeived notions and negativity here.

Almost every post from you has been a judgemental "I don't like (name group that many of the forum are a part of)." Even if you have a salient point, its wrapped up in an attitude that makes Ann Coulter look like Mary Sunshine.

*Taylor*

[flexuality]

please don't bring, or mention your drama and sexual relationships with others on this board to this board.

It's bad enough when someone wrote about their EX partner and then their partner and housemate kept flaming them in the "exs are a pain" thread.


LOL!! You're kidding right?? .....no, probably not.....

I'm trying to wrap my head around this....but it's too damn funny!!

You are opposed to flaming....except if you're the one doing the flaming?

Or is it that it's only okay to flame people you don't know? Or is it only okay to flame groups of people? No wait....it's not okay to talk good about someone because then you can't flame them....but if someone does talk good about someone, then it's okay for you to flame them and to flame the one they're talking good about...oh hell...just flame everyone, right?

Can we say "pyromaniac"?

[spartca]

I jokingly call spartca “creepy guy” in real life. I find it humorous because he is just about as opposite of creepy as you can get. He always gets prejudicial treatment as if he were creepy solely on the fact that he is a single male...

The irony of all this is that on a relationship level, spartca is much more desirable than I am. I am a landmine of changing rules and emotional situations. He is steady, calm, and perfectly capable of going with the flow. And he is so damn HOT! *ahrem*...

When bi girls see spartca, our reaction is to agree he is adorable and fall into fantasies of sharing him. Do bi guys do the same when they both see a girl they like, or do they fall into the competition thing you were talking about?

Thanks for the endorsement Rhuth! :)

It is a challenge though, to walk into a room and be greeted by the "creepy guy" moniker. Maybe you could find another nickname for me? People might not get the irony, and it might be nice for me to get a break from it myself.

To address your question, there are not enough bi guys in my life for me to know the answer. Personally I don't connect with a lot of bi-guys in the South Bay - the male competition thing always seems to get in the way. And not so many bi-identified guys are actually available for a real emotionally-connected relationship with another guy.

Although I'm looking forward to being proved wrong here fellas... I'd love to get close enough to another bi-guy to be able to discuss our attractions together. Until the South Bay represents, I remain devoted to my bi male friends in SF and elsewhere...

Oh, and BTW I do so love MFM threesomes... however I find that hot bi babes of the female variety are too busy going to the highest bidder to deal with lowly bi males. So mostly I end up with straight women, regardless of how many people are in the bed.

Lastly, I'm quite sensitive to the reality for many bi women that they are fed up with being objectified as sex objects - so I try not to add to the problem. If I'm interested in a bi woman, I approach her respectfully and without any agendas of particular sex fantasies - I like to get to know what she likes too before we decide on a plan of action together.

[Tommy2020]

please don't bring, or mention your drama and sexual relationships with others on this board to this board.

It's bad enough when someone wrote about their EX partner and then their partner and housemate kept flaming them in the "exs are a pain" thread.

Oh Lordy, it's the POSTING POLICEMAN again.
"don't bring or mention...."
Daisy, why is it you have no ability to just add interesting comment without getting onto an emotional, hormonal rant about others rights. It is simply beyond me and yes, I think you are a TROLL of the worst kind. Just my humble opinion. Don't you have a job or something to fill in your time? Maybe you need to go to the washateria or post office or somewhere else and post on their bulletin boards with the little 3x5 index cards. You could advertise for a 'sympathetic ear' for your hounding of other's rghts :doggie:
Have a great day
Tommy2020

[ElizabethJane]

spartca - not here for debate, but I just wanted to mention that I understand what you are saying with being polyamorous. Being in a monogomous relationship with more than one person. Its confusing to most but I understand it.

Everyone is aware of everyone to put it plainly. I have a monogomous relationship with my husband, and one day hope to also have a monogomous relationship with a girlfriend in addition to that. End of story.

[Navarana]

....I just wanted to suggest that many of the problems with the poly lifestyle are probably similar the problem often found in the LGBTQ community generally - because our love isn't mainstream we don't get to learn how to behave in a systematized way throughout our lives.

We're doing our best, we make it up as we go along, but the lack of a constant upbringing towards our relationships (that we received only in the heterosexual context) often leads to morally ambiguous actions. We don't have (at least the vast majority of us) role models who we're grown up with who practiced stable poly relationships to show us how.

It's not hopeless. Know what you stand for, be strong, and be a role model in the community. Maybe you can help solve the problem.

[spartca]

Hey thanks for your support! :)

[spartca]

Being in a monogomous relationship with more than one person... I have a monogomous relationship with my husband, and one day hope to also have a monogomous relationship with a girlfriend in addition to that.

I believe some folks would call that arrangement "polyfidelity."

Wikipedia has a nice article on polyamory that covers all the basic customary definitions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory

Hope you enjoy it! :)