General Wants Gay Ban Lifted

[mannysg]

It's about time! I hope congress listens.

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,121509,00.html?ESRC=airforce.nl

[Long Duck Dong]

lol if they wanna go on about gay/bi and les in the army, they only need to look at alexander the great....lol he was hardly butt fucking in a foxhole...

I hope they lift the ban......cos in the field under fire, sexuality means nothing...
the gayest guy in the world, can be the best mate you have ever had, under enemy fire

[LoveLion]

haha, I love the choice of picture they used for the article

[wanderingrichard]

manny,
thanx for posting this.. i was just about to do the same thing.. " Shali" seems to have a change of heart ?? wonder if it has to do with the fact that his son is gay and his daughter bi??
Rich

[someotherguy]

I am in favor of any rule that excuses anyone from military service, which I consider to be evil. The ban is great when there's a draft. It saves you from having to run and hide in Canada, a fate that while not quite worse than death, would be as boring. As it stands now you just tell them you like sucking cock and you stay out of the army and out of jail. Just because some gung-ho gays want to play soldier, don't close the best draft loophole ever. :tongue:

[meta23]

Yeah, I vote we keep the ban until the lunatic Bush administration is gone. Do you people above really want to die in a pointless invasion of Iran, Iraq or Afghanistan?

[Herbwoman39]

While I agree that the war in Iraq has become somewhat pointless, I feel that the sooner the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy is repealed the better. It forces those who DO want to serve to either stay in the closet or go BACK into the closet.

Does anyone else remember what it was like in the closet? It's a miserable experience that people who are laying down their lives for this country should not have to endure. Hell, it's hard enough getting shot at without having to deal with a back-handed insult like that as well.

[wanderingrichard]

While I agree that the war in Iraq has become somewhat pointless, I feel that the sooner the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy is repealed the better. It forces those who DO want to serve to either stay in the closet or go BACK into the closet.

Does anyone else remember what it was like in the closet? It's a miserable experience that people who are laying down their lives for this country should not have to endure. Hell, it's hard enough getting shot at without having to deal with a back-handed insult like that as well.

i totally agree...16 years in the military closet..hell yes it's time to be lifted... while i no longer serve in uniform i do work with the military hand in hand ( no pun) every day. this subject has come up numerous times and each and every soldier i've listened to tells of how badly their unit was impacted when someone in a crucial role was canned due to this assinine policy..

look i did 3 combat tours, one in a mixed unit of army and marines in el salvador.. and met one of the bravest men to probably have worn the marine corps uniform..[the myth of chesty puller aside] [ btw, ex army here and i was the only "dogface" to be asked to attend]

after his funeral, we were invited to his family's home for a wake and thats when we found out that the man was gay.. you could have used several faces as chalk boards, thats how shocking it was to his fellow marines.

this policy is a triple edged bastard.. on one hand if you go deep into the closet, more than likely you wont be found out. on another, someone can use it to perpetrate a vendetta against you and end your career. saw that happen in bosnia as a contractor looking inside the unit we supported, and i know it's happened several other places as well. then, of course, there is the antiquated, sofaroutofstepwithrealityitaintfunny, UCMJ, which already covers "all the bases' as far as sexual (mis)conduct is concerned in the eyes of the military, and it lays out what is expected from each and every man and woman in uniform, and their dependants, too..

so, in my view, and that of many others, this is a totally redundant, useless and corrupt policy propogated by a liar who stood in the highest public office in the land, and told the entire world he didnt do it, then got caught out, and it does nothing but negatively impact the lives of other military members who see the whole person every day, and not some trumped up government issue image of the "ideal american".

it's about time we start truly treating our servicemen and women like the human beings they are and not as objects to be trotted out as icons of ken and barbie idealism.

[izzfan]

Yeah, I mean if a soldier is open about his/her sexuality then they can focus more on what they are meant to be doing rather than having to spend time and effort on constantly remaining in the closet. Also, staying in the closet is not particularly healthy from a psychological perspective and soldiers are under enough stress as it is.
In the UK, they allowed gay/lesbian/bisexual (not sure about TG though) people to join the armed forces in 2000/2001 (I think) and it hasn't negatively affected our armed forces [I mean Bu$h/Bliar have done tremendous damage to our armed forces and yet they are allowed to start wars, whereas LGB soldiers provide valuable contributions to armed forces. Surely it would make sense for the US to simultaneously allow LGB recruits and ban Bu$h from starting any more wars lol ] . I mean you would think any government (especially during wartime) would try to remove restrictions such as this in order to increase the size of their army.

Now that I have given the objective reasons supporting a change to the US policy, I would personally say that I have absolutely no intenetion to join the military [I would probably flee/hide/desert if the "bring back national service" brigade got their way] but I belive that people should be able to do so if they want to and not be excluded just because of who they have feelings for.

just my :2cents:

Izzfan :flag3:

[LoveLion]

It saves you from having to run and hide in Canada, a fate that while not quite worse than death, would be as boring

Canada boring! No Way! Not only are there the much more liberal drinking laws and less inforced and less harsh maharajah laws and more liberal views in general, we got gay marriage, tons less discrimination, Mountains for skiing, Rivers for rafting, 3km of wilderness per person in our country. And if the outdoors arnt your thing Toronto's great night scene, The legendary Montreal Strip Clubs (where yes you only have to be 18, and yes you get to touch) and night clubs, Vancouver's super mellow liberal atmosphere (and the best Maharajah in North America), and thousands of other great things to do. Sound like a fun weekend to me.

Sure we dont have Nascar and shotguns like in Texas, but our oils flowin and our beef is better.

Plus, Hockey. Common? What sport is faster, more physical, more suspenseful, and funner? none.

[Avocado]

It really is about time. Look at the way alot of countries treat people who aren't straight, all some of these people want to do is to try and make the world a better place for those of us not lucky enough to be born in a tolerant country and they're being told they can't. It's madness. (Of course, the so-called "war on terror" is replacing Sharia state with Sharia state but that's another topic...)

[tatooedpunk]

Fantistic,

More people to die, sorry fucking hate unjust war (as is now)
Sorry again dont get me started,
But yes i agree gay people should be able to join the armed forces,
If you have to!

[SLIMES]

I am in favor of any rule that excuses anyone from military service, which I consider to be evil. The ban is great when there's a draft. It saves you from having to run and hide in Canada, a fate that while not quite worse than death, would be as boring. As it stands now you just tell them you like sucking cock and you stay out of the army and out of jail. Just because some gung-ho gays want to play soldier, don't close the best draft loophole ever. :tongue:



Originally Posted by meta23
Yeah, I vote we keep the ban until the lunatic Bush administration is gone. Do you people above really want to die in a pointless invasion of Iran, Iraq or Afghanistan?

It's comments like these that do us a lot of harm. Would you welcome a ban on black people in the army?

[SLIMES]

The justness of the Iraq war is not the issue. We are talking about equal rights here not what we believe individuals' career choices should be.

[someotherguy]

I didn't know you were lord god and master of the discussion, saying what is right and what is at issue and which comments are good or bad. Now that I know this, I can just sit back and learn from your example how to think and talk.

[allbimyself]

I didn't know you were lord god and master of the discussion, saying what is right and what is at issue and which comments are good or bad. Now that I know this, I can just sit back and learn from your example how to think and talk.Pot, kettle. Kettle, pot.

[someotherguy]

Posting Rules:
Generally I am not a "rules person", but experience with various internet communities has taught me that rules are necessary, even on a site that is all about about sexual freedom such as Bisexual.com. So here they are:
1. Don't post your personal ad here. They just clutter up the forums. By far the best thing to do if you are looking to meet people is create a quality personal ad under your "My Account" control panel. These ads then show up highlighted to people in your area.
2. Be polite - flame the idea if you feel you must, but not the person.
3. Sexual freedom is what it's all about, but even it should have limits - discussions of non-consensual sex, violence and sex, or sex involving children are not welcome here, will be promptly deleted, and the poster may be banned.
4. Have fun. Learn. Share. Entertain. Discuss. Argue. Enlighten.
- Drew

[mannysg]

The justness of the Iraq war is not the issue. We are talking about equal rights here not what we believe individuals' career choices should be.


That's why I started this thread, to discuss equal rights. As you said, the issue is gays & lesbians being able to OPENLY server in the military if they wish.

I avoid on-line discussion about wars, not just the situation in Iraq, but ANY war. Like them or not, war is a part of our world. It would be nice to live in a world where there is not wars, but that's a fantasy that will probably never come true. Until then, my stance is that a person should be able to serve in the military no matter what their gender, race, religion, or sexual preference is, if they wish.

[Long Duck Dong]

hugs ya mannysg and wandering richard

as a former armed forces member....and in nz... i was able to stand tall with some of the best gay/ bi men....lol

I also stood tall with people of multi races and cultures ......

what upsets me, is the people that take the stance of war is stupid.....or serving in the military

they most likely have never seen the people that train in the army, the comradeship... the laughter, the tears...the accepting of each other, and ignoring the colour, culture and sexuality differences.... becoming one unit, one person... one mind.....

they will never seen the support, help, guidance etc that a platoon is known for..... the tight knit *family* unit.....they will never understand that the military is not * men with guns * there are also the medics, the cooks, the mechanics the radio operators, the maintence crews, the engineers.... etc

the unsung heroes, that often mobilize at home in times of disaster.....

most of the people in the military, may never see active service on the front line.... but behind the scenes, they are some of the best men and women a person can have the honour to service

and then we see somebody sitting in a forum slamming us......and words fail me

[SLIMES]

I didn't know you were lord god and master of the discussion, saying what is right and what is at issue and which comments are good or bad. Now that I know this, I can just sit back and learn from your example how to think and talk.

You are advocating the retention of sexualy descriminatory legislation so that pacifists can avoid national service. That is an insult to the gay and bisexual men and women who serve their countries heroically. People who do not wish to serve have rights, but those rights should not be defended at the expense of gay people who have a right to serve regardless of the rights and wrongs of Iraq. I think I am entitled to criticise what you said.

The issue is gay people in the miltary. Suggesting that the whole 'Iraq debate' is a distraction from this important part of LGB rights is a perfectly valid contribution to the discussion.

[meta23]

It's comments like these that do us a lot of harm. Would you welcome a ban on black people in the army?

If there was the possibility of a draft to fight a stupid war in Iraq or Iran, and if I were black, then yes.

If we're talking about some hypothetical military which is all volunteer and where you can't be drafted against your will or required to serve beyond your agreed-upon term, then I agree that that hypothetical military should allow anyone who wants to join to do so, should it one day exist.

[mannysg]

If there was the possibility of a draft to fight a stupid war in Iraq or Iran, and if I were black, then yes.

If we're talking about some hypothetical military which is all volunteer and where you can't be drafted against your will or required to serve beyond your agreed-upon term, then I agree that that hypothetical military should allow anyone who wants to join to do so, should it one day exist.

The U.S. has an all volunteer military. There is no draft other than registration. In order for anyone to be drafted, Congress must vote to approve it. In order to be held beyond your "agreed upon term" Congress must pass legislation giving the military the authority to force involuntary extensions to support a particular mission. They have done this for the war on terror that we are currently involved in.

SO, again, regardless of what conflicts we are involved in, I still feel that GLBT people should be allowed to serve if they desire. If a person agrees with a particular conflict, they should be allowed to serve in the military to participate in it if they wish regardless of their sexual identity.

[mannysg]

hugs ya mannysg and wandering richard

as a former armed forces member....and in nz... i was able to stand tall with some of the best gay/ bi men....lol

I also stood tall with people of multi races and cultures ......

what upsets me, is the people that take the stance of war is stupid.....or serving in the military

they most likely have never seen the people that train in the army, the comradeship... the laughter, the tears...the accepting of each other, and ignoring the colour, culture and sexuality differences.... becoming one unit, one person... one mind.....

they will never seen the support, help, guidance etc that a platoon is known for..... the tight knit *family* unit.....they will never understand that the military is not * men with guns * there are also the medics, the cooks, the mechanics the radio operators, the maintence crews, the engineers.... etc

the unsung heroes, that often mobilize at home in times of disaster.....

most of the people in the military, may never see active service on the front line.... but behind the scenes, they are some of the best men and women a person can have the honour to service

and then we see somebody sitting in a forum slamming us......and words fail me

LDD,
As usual, you said it all very well. (I wish I could word things as well as you!)

I was in the military for 21 years. I never was in a combat zone.

I often miss the men and women that I served with. The people a soldier (or sailor, airman, or marine) is assigned with quickly becomes an extended family. Very few civilian employers give their employees the support that a supervisor in the military give to his/her troops.

[SLIMES]

If there was the possibility of a draft to fight a stupid war in Iraq or Iran, and if I were black, then yes.

If we're talking about some hypothetical military which is all volunteer and where you can't be drafted against your will or required to serve beyond your agreed-upon term, then I agree that that hypothetical military should allow anyone who wants to join to do so, should it one day exist.

A great answer to an unjust war. personnaly I'd rather use other methods.

[darkeyes]

I am in favor of any rule that excuses anyone from military service, which I consider to be evil. The ban is great when there's a draft. It saves you from having to run and hide in Canada, a fate that while not quite worse than death, would be as boring. As it stands now you just tell them you like sucking cock and you stay out of the army and out of jail. Just because some gung-ho gays want to play soldier, don't close the best draft loophole ever. :tongue:

Just back from an hour or so in the pub where I had a luvly argy-bargy about this very subject!

Like with so many things I have such great difficulty knowing the answer to this. I loathe discrimination against any individual on grounds of race sex creed or sex orientation, but how could I, as a pacifist condone any legislation which gives us the right to enlist and perform a task where as part of our job, is the maiming and killing of other human beings?

War and violence of any kind is despicable. I just cant work myself up to support our right to be allowed to join the military or any other state organisation which hands over weapons and expects its slaves 2 kill and maim other human beings. And as human beings ourselves, we shouldnt be lining up and demanding the right to be allowed to enlist in organisations which if push comes 2 shove and the inevitable reaction comes to the increased liberalisation of attitudes to gender orientation comes will be used in eliminating the likes of us, as well as any other human beings the state wishes us to dispose of!

Maybe I sound paranoid, maybe I am, God knows I have been called that... but I hate killing so much, loathe war and violence to such an extent, I simply do not want the right for me, or any of my kind to be allowed equal rights to military service, and the appalling and abhorrant job that entails!!

[wingnut]

I am in favor of any rule that excuses anyone from military service, which I consider to be evil.

Ok, let's all just sit around playing with daisies and hope we don't get attacked. God I'm glad most people don't think such an idiotic thing as what you said.

Ideally, there would be no violence and no need for militaries. Unfortunately we live in a messed up world and need the means to defend ourselves or else we'd be led like sheep to slaughter. Fortunately most people realize that and many serve to help protect our free countries so you can sit around making pansy-ass comments.

[someotherguy]

When I go to reply, I get a page with a text window, above which are these rules listed. I take it to mean the idea here is to exchange ideas and views, not insults. I expect you get the same page and see the same rules. How does your post measure up to the intent here?

There are lots of places online to annoy people and engage in petty bickering. You can be a troll someplace else. Leave this forum for people who want to discuss things amicably.

Posting Rules:
Generally I am not a "rules person", but experience with various internet communities has taught me that rules are necessary, even on a site that is all about about sexual freedom such as Bisexual.com. So here they are:
1. Don't post your personal ad here. They just clutter up the forums. By far the best thing to do if you are looking to meet people is create a quality personal ad under your "My Account" control panel. These ads then show up highlighted to people in your area.
2. Be polite - flame the idea if you feel you must, but not the person.
3. Sexual freedom is what it's all about, but even it should have limits - discussions of non-consensual sex, violence and sex, or sex involving children are not welcome here, will be promptly deleted, and the poster may be banned.
4. Have fun. Learn. Share. Entertain. Discuss. Argue. Enlighten.
- Drew

[darkeyes]

Ok, let's all just sit around playing with daisies and hope we don't get attacked. God I'm glad most people don't think such an idiotic thing as what you said.

Ideally, there would be no violence and no need for militaries. Unfortunately we live in a messed up world and need the means to defend ourselves or else we'd be led like sheep to slaughter. Fortunately most people realize that and many serve to help protect our free countries so you can sit around making pansy-ass comments.

Mayb how I feel is pansy ass as you put it but it is how I feel. The taking up of arms an killing other human beings for an idea or cause or any other reason just seems to me such a silly and insane way of settling disputes..we are tools to lay down our live's not for country or cause, but for the retention of powerful people's hold on the reigns of power and fear. The old fashioned word is cannon fodder, and I for one refuse to be cannon fodder, though as long as humanity pursues aims and objectives by the crazy act of war, whether we take up arms or not that is sadly just what we shall be.

[Long Duck Dong]

hugs ya darkeyes.... ...your statements are good and i do agree with them

I respect your pacifist views and and yes its fair enuf what you are saying

but i need to want to ask something

a lot of the openings in the forces are for NONCOM ( non combatant ) services... that simply means that the person would never serve in a direct overseas combat situation... but would be free to serve in the services as a pacifist....

if the LGBT were offered the right to serve in situations like that with the chance of NEVER being in a war.... and the chance of gaining a life time career situation ( military or otherwise )..... what would your stance be on that

I am referring to jobs such as engineer, driver, office staff, cook etc...lol... and not armoury or infantry


its just that some pacifists i know are opposed to all military service of any sort and some are opposed to combat situations in the military

[darkeyes]

hugs ya darkeyes.... ...your statements are good and i do agree with them

I respect your pacifist views and and yes its fair enuf what you are saying

but i need to want to ask something

a lot of the openings in the forces are for NONCOM ( non combatant ) services... that simply means that the person would never serve in a direct overseas combat situation... but would be free to serve in the services as a pacifist....

if the LGBT were offered the right to serve in situations like that with the chance of NEVER being in a war.... and the chance of gaining a life time career situation ( military or otherwise )..... what would your stance be on that

I am referring to jobs such as engineer, driver, office staff, cook etc...lol... and not armoury or infantry


its just that some pacifists i know are opposed to all military service of any sort and some are opposed to combat situations in the military

Quick answer is that if we do what u call non com roles then pacifists release others to do the combat roles, and thus givin the military more scope to cause more people more harm! The only answer for a true pacifist is to do none of it.

In the end it is our consciences which decide what we do. Mine knows where I stand on the issue and while I may condemn, argue and hate what others do, and do not believe that they have the right to act otherwise morally, that is merely what my conscience tells me, and in the end how others act is a matter for them!

[wanderingrichard]

Quick answer is that if we do what u call non com roles then pacifists release others to do the combat roles, and thus givin the military more scope to cause more people more harm! The only answer for a true pacifist is to do none of it.

In the end it is our consciences which decide what we do. Mine knows where I stand on the issue and while I may condemn, argue and hate what others do, and do not believe that they have the right to act otherwise morally, that is merely what my conscience tells me, and in the end how others act is a matter for them!

dude,
we may never always agree on everything, but i hope you always follow your conscience. standing up for what you feel is right is the hallmark of being.

[darkeyes]

dude,
we may never always agree on everything, but i hope you always follow your conscience. standing up for what you feel is right is the hallmark of being.We can do no more than try as best we can....

[SLIMES]

I oppose the way the police have been used with Muslim communities in the UK. But I would never support a ban on gay people in the police.

We need to see these issues seperatly. We can stand up for LGB rights and take differing positions on foreign policy.

I hate to think how the religious right would exploit the idea that bisexuals were welcoming the ban because it would get them out of military service. It would simply play into the hands the individuals we are opposing.

[Long Duck Dong]

i have to admit that in truth i am torn over this..... darkeyes comments are so true.....and i support her ...but i also support the rights of LBGT to be treated with the same respects and rights as the rest of the hell race

i don't like seeing any wars take place, tho i accept they do happen....and as proud as I am to have served in the forces in nz....i do have a few friends that have been injured in active service..( peacekeeper duties ).....I must admit that it hurts me...to see that.... and to know that i am supporting the role of LBGT in the forces.... and allowing them to face the same thing


sighs.....world peace would be nice.... but world compromise is better.... at least that way we can agree to disagree and not settle it with bloodshed