Talking rationally about sex in 2007

[JohnnyV]

My new year's resolution for 2007 will be:

To find a way to talk about sex and sexuality without getting incredibly emotional and nasty.

GLBT rights are high on my list of political issues, but I've noticed that every time I engage these issues in public venues, people's emotions flair and discussion becomes impossible. Gays and lesbians scream at me for being married to a woman and having an opinion on GLBT rights at all, and then they play the victim when I challenge them about the way gay and lesbian activists have excluded bisexuals. Christian conservatives go to Defcon 5, feeling they have to protect some jaundiced notion of "family life" from the threat of deviance, and quote scriptures at me until I give up.

How do you guys think a more rational discussion of sex issues could take place?

J

[citystyleguy]

whew! and then we will talk rationally regarding world peace and nuclear disarmement!! :rolleyes: talking about biting off more than one can chew!!!

after religion and politics, sex is high on the list of what not to discuss if you wish to retain family and friends; frankly, i am at a lose as to what would be a workable process, but you fully have my support in attempting to acheive such a rational process. i shall revisit this thread to see what discourse may occur, and will jump into the fray as warranted! good luck!

[trip1]

We seem to be a threat to everyone it seems. Some think we are sexual monsters and are afraid for their mates that we might swoop down and take them. Hell as long as people think like that our voices will never be heard. I think it will be many years before we see change enough for us to be heard... My 2 cents worth...Maybe I'm having a rotten day today who know's

[12voltman59]

I hate to be cynical about this Johnny--but like with so many subjects these days--once the far fringe fundy Christians take hold of something and it gets to be part and parcel of the "culture wars"--the ability to discuss those subjects rationally gets lost... these days-- the list of such subjects grows longer each and every day---basically--take anything science has discovered that might be good or usefull and they are against that and certainly anything that they interpret the Bible said was not good.

[Herbwoman39]

Whew! I didn't really want to be the first one to reply to this. I was hoping others would reply the same way I wanted to initially first.

It's a wonderful goal, but you've got to realize that the only reactions that you can control are your own. When people have such deeply ingrained beliefs, you're going to be hard-pressed to change those beliefs.

I wish I had something optimistic to say, but all I can tell you is that I wish you all the luck in the world with that.

Maybe Long Duck Dong's new paper can help you achieve that goal.

[LoveLion]

Talking openly and maturely about gay and lesbian rights is hard enough with all the strict Christians (and from what I understand about Christianity and Christian values, they should be the most accepting) and extreme right winged views in our world. But talking about Bisexual rights is nearly impossible, because even the open minded left winged people and the gay/lesbian community dont beleive we exist or call us hypocrites. Basically we are rejected on both sides and when we try and talk about it we get either anger and disgust from the right, or resentment from the left. I was sitting with some friends at school last week talking about gay/lesbian rights and they were all like, yeah gays and lesians should be able to marry and should get the rights everyone else has. Then I said "well what about Bisexuals" and they all kinda laughed and said "puhh, no one really bisexual" or "yeah there just gays who who cant face up". I argued our side, but didnt want to get to passionate or angry about because I didnt want them to know I was Bi. But the point is even when we can get people speaking openly and maturely about G/L rights, as soon as you bring up Bi, it goes back to the same old unaccepting shit. (pardon my language)

So basically, Nobel goal, but you might as well try to end world hunger and all war while you at it

[someotherguy]

It just depends on your goal for the conversation.

Here are the only three goals that exist for all human endeavor:

1. Get some work done.
2. Learn something new.
3. Be entertained.

These are like the three states of matter, and the work state can sublimate directly into the entertainment state.

Let's now examine your problem of which you are so fond. I suggest you are trying to get some work done, perhaps to achieve agreement or gain acceptance, or even convert others to your view. Your frustration comes from the impossibility of your goal. Your anger comes from having your views threatened. For it seems that unless you are deemed right by others something bad happens in your world of emotions. But what?

So my suggestion is to choose from among the remaining options. Decide to either learn something by the discussion, or to enjoy it somehow. Things you could learn include the underlying assumptions supporting other's views, what else such people think on other issues, and why it could matter to you at all when others disagree with you. For entertainment, lots of people have veins that pop out when they get mad, so you could be watching their necks and foreheads for amusing pictographs, and assigning nick-names by what these might resemble. You could also momentarily contradict yourself to lure them into a sense of triumphant agreement, then revert back to your original position. Then smirk as they stumble over your fleeting antithesis. One thing I like to do is launch off on rambling analogies leading somewhere unsuspected, changing the subject altogether. The possibilities are endless. It's like if you were all trying to order a pizza and the one rule was that nobody got any until you all agreed on the toppings, but you were unable to eat pineapple and nobody else liked sausage. It took you half the night to finally arrive at the only possible mix for everyone, but when the delivery arrived nobody had enough money to pay for it.

P.S. Thinking rationally is what got you into this mess in the first place.

[Bicuriousity]

Heres a goal for you:

In 2007, let's quit walking around with a chip on our shoulders if someone holds a different view than us. It's bound to happen.

I am not a partisan so I can't agree with the luny left liberals any more than the radical right.

Sex is best kept in the bedroom, but if you have to be an exhibitionist and screw your boyfriend/girlfriend at the gay pride march, do it but be sure to realize there will be people who are disgusted at it.

I think we can do far better than worry about what people think about us. I'm not out, but i don't want to be nor need to be to satisfy some crusade against straight people and intolerance in the world.

[Long Duck Dong]

rationally talking about sex, and sexual politics ???

lmao... i didn't know it could be done :tong: :tong: :tong:

part of the trouble is not you, or the subject, its the people that think they have to fight everybody lol

my first suggestion is don't even bother trying to change views.... you spend 90% of your time arguing..... and thats a waste of time... rather offer a opinion... and let those that agree with it, come forward and stand with you

the trouble is, so many people have a personal agenda.....and thats where things go sour pretty fast

personally myself... i ignore the need for Bisexual rights.... cos I struggle to see where we need rights.....but sure we have the right to be recognized as a legit sexuality.... but legal rights don't change biased and ignorance...lol

if you want bisexual rights, you really need to look at what you see as bisexual rights and see if its actually a fight worth fighting for

things like bi venues are fine.... but you still have to get people to come

bi health issues.....minimal issue.... unless you feel the health system is failing you.... and thats not the health system, its the doctor

bi acknowledgement in the LGBT community.... well like i say.... biased and ignorance are the issue there.... people chose not to accept bisexuality as legit.... and you can fight them til you turn blue in the face.....:rolleyes: ... you will not change them

one of the main things i find, is dealing with sex and sexual politics, is a dual edged sword...
one edge is the people that think they need to fight the world ( as I mentioned earlier )
the other edge is the people that can't see why they should change their views....they will just sit there and smile and make things as differcult as hell.... and they really don't care either way, what is going on... they just can't see why they should change their opinion

[mannysg]

{quote}But the point is even when we can get people speaking openly and maturely about G/L rights, as soon as you bring up Bi, it goes back to the same old unaccepting shit. (pardon my language)[/QUOTE]

While this may be true, I've found disagreeing with someone (on this or any issue) often makes them think about it at some later time and sometimes even causes them (over time) to soften their view on the subject. Just getting people not to be so firm in their stance is a minor victory. Getting them to be more understanding and possibly more accepting is (IMHO) a major victory.

[deremarc]

A discussion is when two or more people have an earnest conversation about a subject with a lively exchange of ideas.

A debate is when you have a argument: a discussion in which reasons are advanced for and against some idea and you are both trying to "win".

I guess it matters whether you want to discuss sex (being open to hearing differing opinions) or want to debate the topic (with the goal of having the other person wind up agreeing with your opinion).

I think there are certain things, like religion and politics, that are difficult to discuss with someone who has a firm or set opinion about it. And that can be you or them, or both. If you feel strongly about something, you are not going to change what you think, and neither are they.

I think true discussions are just that...the Exchange of ideas--a two way street. For that to happen, both parties have to be willing to set aside their emotional reaction to the other person's ideas, and be willing to listen to what the other person has to say.

If having a discussion of bisexuality, means that the person should agree with you and what you think, the only way to have a rational discussion would be to have discussions only with people who think like you do.

I have a brother with whom I cannot have a "reasonable" or rational discussion about anything. If my opinions do not mirror his, no discussion is possible. He is very rigid and unbending to the point where he is unable to tolerate me having a different opinion, and feels the need to argue a point until he can "force" me to change my opinion with the goal of proving how wrong I am. I just choose to not discuss things with him.

Now, with the guy in my life...we discuss touchy subjects using great care to listen to and not invalidate the others opinions. He believes strongly in evolution, I choose to believe that we were intentionally created for a purpose. But, when we discuss this issue (and it surprised him at first that it could be done rationally :) ), we both listen to the other one with an open mind and discover why we each think what we do, and we leave with a better understanding of each other. We still may disagree, but we give mutual respect and understanding.

Our mutual "stand" on evolution vs. creation has become a joke between us. The big-bang occurred (satisfying the scientist in him), but the big bang was not accidental, it was a result of the power expended by the force that intentionally created us and our world (satisfying my need to feel as if I am special and not just the waste product of some scientific phenomenon).

I guess what I think is that discussing bisexuality--as a bisexual with a monosexual, has the potential to be difficult. You are discussing who you are and any differing opinions or views have the potential to hurt you (and also make you angry).

Rational discussions are only possible amongst rational people, and when discussing things that we "feel" deeply about, rationality oft times goes out the window.

[Oh Yeah]

Can someone explain to me what GLBT 'rights' are? As far as I know we have equal rights to all other persons in Canada.

[JohnnyV]

Thanks for your replies...

Some ways of talking about sex are better, or at least more fruitful, than others. So I'm not jumping on any of the pessimists' band wagons.

Happy New Year's! (Even the assholes!)

J