God and science

[coyotedude]

(Continued from "Conversations with a God I don't believe exists")



Also question why is God a he?? She may not be..it may not be sexual at all.. he she or it may be hermaphrodite.. or some other wonderful fairy story humanity may choose to invent for him her it. And who made him her or it?? Or was him her or it merely an accidental or random creation? Was he she or it always there? Will he her or it always be there?

Where is the science that proves any of anything to do with spirtual matters?
Or is he her or it merely the creation of the fertile minds of ancient mankind as a tool for the powerful to control the masses? Or as a feeble attempt by superstitious and primitive people to explain why everything?

I hope you don't mind my using your post as a starting point, darkeyes. I've actually been working on some ideas on religion and science for quite some time that your post reminded me of, and I am hoping you as well as other folks (both believers and atheists) can give me some thoughtful feedback.

I think you ask some valid questions, darkeyes, on the nature of God and religion. I personally am a believer, yet I can very much appreciate the importance of healthy skepticism - if nothing else, to keep me honest in what and how I believe!

For me, I look at science and religion as two distinct sets of tools that play two very different roles in our lives. The scientific method is an awesome and powerful paradigm for asking certain sorts of questions: what is this? how does it work? how did it come to be? how does it impact other things? how is it likely to change through time?

But even mighty Science cannot answer the question "why" - as in purpose and meaning. Science can shed light on the consequences of any given action, but science cannot tell us what choices we should or should not make as we live our lives. For these things we rely on other tools, whether philosophy, ethics and values, the humanities, religion, or a combination thereof.

I think science has settled that a God with certain physical characteristics as defined by humans over the years may not exist. Yet that is not to say that science has disproved God; it merely has disproved some of our ideas about God.

In fact, I'm not certain that science will ever settle the question of God or spirituality, in large part because science and religion are really two different languages with distinct definitions and vocabularies. What we are really talking about are two different ways of looking at the world, each with its own strengths and weaknesses.

Let me give an example from my spiritual tradition. An eagle nests in a valley. On one side of the valley sits a biologist taking field notes for a study. On the other side of the valley sits a person preparing for what some folks call a "vision quest". Each person watches the eagle's every move for a period of three months. And in the end, each person takes away a completely different - yet accurate - view of the eagle. The biologist learned about eagle biology. The person preparing for vision quest learned about living life in balance with the world around us.

Both are important lessons for us as human beings. (Frankly I think balance is an incredibly important lesson for us as bisexuals who must navigate between two different worlds!)

Let me know what you all think on this! Peace

[darkeyes]

No hun I dont mind at all. I try never to decry personal beliefs of people (though fascism and racism are two exceptions to that rule) because while I may hate that belief, and/or disagree intensely with it, our beliefs are what makes us who we are. I may, and do often take issue with the doctrinaire, the "I'm right God is gr8 an u will burn in hell" syndrome that so many people have, and the intolerance of different points of view. But I am genuinely interested in other points of view, for it is in listening to them, however much we disagree that helps us formulate our own opinions. Its how we learn, and how we learn to live in this world.

Forgive me for not commenting on your post specifically at this stage, but would like to see others opinions before I comment in depth. It is nice to see a considered opinion with which I may disagree but u 2 have interesting and valid points 2 make.

[ambi53mm]

(Continued from "Conversations with a God I don't believe exists")



I hope you don't mind my using your post as a starting point, darkeyes. I've actually been working on some ideas on religion and science for quite some time that your post reminded me of, and I am hoping you as well as other folks (both believers and atheists) can give me some thoughtful feedback.

I think you ask some valid questions, darkeyes, on the nature of God and religion. I personally am a believer, yet I can very much appreciate the importance of healthy skepticism - if nothing else, to keep me honest in what and how I believe!

For me, I look at science and religion as two distinct sets of tools that play two very different roles in our lives. The scientific method is an awesome and powerful paradigm for asking certain sorts of questions: what is this? how does it work? how did it come to be? how does it impact other things? how is it likely to change through time?

But even mighty Science cannot answer the question "why" - as in purpose and meaning. Science can shed light on the consequences of any given action, but science cannot tell us what choices we should or should not make as we live our lives. For these things we rely on other tools, whether philosophy, ethics and values, the humanities, religion, or a combination thereof.

I think science has settled that a God with certain physical characteristics as defined by humans over the years may not exist. Yet that is not to say that science has disproved God; it merely has disproved some of our ideas about God.

In fact, I'm not certain that science will ever settle the question of God or spirituality, in large part because science and religion are really two different languages with distinct definitions and vocabularies. What we are really talking about are two different ways of looking at the world, each with its own strengths and weaknesses.

Let me give an example from my spiritual tradition. An eagle nests in a valley. On one side of the valley sits a biologist taking field notes for a study. On the other side of the valley sits a person preparing for what some folks call a "vision quest". Each person watches the eagle's every move for a period of three months. And in the end, each person takes away a completely different - yet accurate - view of the eagle. The biologist learned about eagle biology. The person preparing for vision quest learned about living life in balance with the world around us.

Both are important lessons for us as human beings. (Frankly I think balance is an incredibly important lesson for us as bisexuals who must navigate between two different worlds!)

Let me know what you all think on this! Peace

Excellent post Coyotedude!! I look forward to adding to this post as well when time permits, having sat on both sides of that valley. I agree that "balance is an incredibly important lesson for us as bisexuals who must navigate between two different worlds". Can you be more specific as it relates to your post, on which two worlds? Could it also be said that bisexuality is an incredible lesson in balance, for us as human beings who must navigate between two different worlds?

Ambi :)

[Long Duck Dong]

mmm...

god, in the sense as we know him / her / it, is a enigma....there is not ANY set definition of god, just many ideas and assumptions of god

the main opinion forming guideline to god, is the bible that portrays a heterosexual, male form as god...lol...my one problem with that, is the bible is a book written by man, in the same manner the koran was written by man, and so too, the grimoire etc etc etc, and as books written by man go, the truth to the book is only in the head of the writer and the head of the reader... even 100 % accurate fact can still be seen as fiction in the head of the reader lol

anyhows, getting back to the heterosexual, male god image... the bible doesn't mention god as a heterosexual... I assumed that he is heterosexual, cos if he was a 100 % gay god, males would be preggers and females wouldn't exist lol
however,there is no proof supporting or denying the possibility that this god is bisexual, hermaphrodite or even non sexual... the idea that god is male and straight is one formed in the mind of the writer and the reader

now if said god was heterosexual, why create the possibility of gay, les, bisex, transsex in humans, why give them the possibility of doing something that god supposedly dislikes... is this the idea of free thinking and freedom of express that we are told that god wishes us all to have ??? the same god that says he will punish all who exercise such freedoms, by sending them to hell for eternity.....oh the crime of being human and exercising freedom of speech and actions

we are told that god will send us signs, and visions, that we will hear and feel his voice in our heads etc.... if god speaks to us, its good, but if we hear voices, its off to the local pysch unit

so much of religion is based around people control, manipulation and denying of rights... I walked as a christian once, and finally said that enuf was enuf
I was tired of hearing about how great god was, how god loved all, how god forgave, and yet the list of rules and laws and restrictions grew like weeds in a garden
how so many churches were wrong and only one was right, yet that would rule out 99% of religion and 100% of religion are saying they are the only true church....how something done in gods name was right, but the exact same thing not done in gods name, was wrong

i grew tired of my mother putting everything that was good ( in her eyes ) to the glory of god, anything that was not, ( the internet, computers, porn, gays, not lesbians, etc etc ), was demonic..

I have for years studied religion, not the bible, but the acts of religion, and I have read and followed many study groups...and over the years, time and time again, non religious and religious were both able to create the exact same effects, including talking in tongues, being * slain * in the spirit, healing, * miracles * etc etc
the only difference is that the religious groups would state that you have to have faith that it is god at work.... interesting, you have to have faith that its god...why ??? cos god exists in faith....you have to believe that there is a god, cos if it is proven that there is no god, then religion is dammed... and religion can't prove there is a god, for there is no way to prove or disprove the existence of god....... FAITH being the key that religion uses against people that don't follow its path....people that exercise free speech and action, have no faith in a unproven, unknown undefined god who exists in a book and in the heads of believers

science is error filled but tangible proof of 90% of what it sets out to prove or disprove
religion is contradictory thoughts, actions and words based around a unproven, unprovable, undefinable possible existence of something that has no substance or form in the world outside of pure thought, belief and faith

[Herbwoman39]

For a long time I have sought to keep my spiritual life separate from my logical life. It's been an interesting path I've trod. When I was young my parents raised me to believe in the Bible, God and Jesus and I was willing to accept those teachings. That is until one summer when they put me in Bible camp.

The Pastor was talking about coveting the possessions of others. He used the example of a neighbor kid getting a new bike that you really, really wanted. According to him, it was wrong to want that bike. So I asked something like; "Say I really really wanted that bike, so I went out and got a job and saved up all my money and then bought a bike just like it, is that still wrong?" He said yes.

To this day I still don't get that. If the desire for something inspires motivation to achieve a goal, how can that be wrong?

I tried arguing the point, but since I was only 14, I got shot down.

So I tried a myriad of different spiritual paths; Buddhism, Wicca, Spiritualism, you name it, I explored that avenue. I finally decided to say screw it and I created my own relationship with the Divine. That's what faith is supposed to be about anyway. Not someone else's interpretation of what He/She/It is, but your own relationship with Him/Her/It.

On the other hand, while we have a nice, casual relationship, I am always looking into the developments in Quantum physics. I love to read Scientific American and research papers on a variety of natural sciences. Scientific theory is a wonderful model on so many levels. But then, we're talking about trying to prove the existence of a faith-based Being with logic. The two are almost mutually exclusive. I mean, really. Try to prove the virgin birth Jesus' resurrection. It's not likely to happen. That's where faith comes in.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that logic cannot be proven with emotion, nor vice versa. If that makes sense :-)

Yeah, it's a balancing act. :bigrin:

[ambi53mm]

Just a thought or two....

Science is limited to the spatiotemporal dimension we define as physical reality. It is because of this limitation that though the most ardent scientist can appreciate the complexity of energy in its infinite manifestations, he is unable to apply scientific method to explain the origin of this energy. The scientist can also entertain a belief that something greater than that which he studies might exist without compromising his vocation, but is unable to offer any substantiated proof to give his belief any credibility. A belief in a God requires as some suggest, a paradigm devoid of science, a blind faith of the unknown, however in many areas of physical reality, it is the unknown that the scientist struggles to take into the realm of knowing. The discovery and exploration of those dimensions that fall into the category of non-physical reality requires no belief at all. Parapsychology attempts to explain phenomena that cross over into these lesser-known realities but when compared to the physical sciences, parapsychology is still in its infancy. What amazes me at times is how we far we have traveled, and yet learned so little about who and what we are.

The various religions that most of us are acquainted with are Pagan in their origin. Primitive survival societies eventually evolved into primitive identity societies when man began to look beyond his limited physical capabilities and evoke perhaps those ancient memories, intuitions, and sought explanations based on his interpretations and observations of his mysterious surroundings. Through various methods and ritual he was able to tap into non-physical realities such as dreams and trance induced ecstatic visions. Observations of animals he hunted for food also established a relationship that became spiritual as he came to understand his connection to his environment and all living things. The tribal shaman gave aid in various ways that allowed him to help in assuring the survival of the tribe. The vision quest that Coyotedude refers to is based in the traditions of a primitive identity society. Shamanism is not limited to this physical world and is therefore not subject to the physical laws of time and space. It requires the practitioners to transcend this reality and although it may not be mainstream religion it is still a very viable tool in self-discovery even in this “modern age of science”.

Science is rooted in a modern survival society. Survival has become perverse and distorted to the extent that should we continue in the downward spiral we find ourselves in, we will likely self-prophesize ourselves into global destruction or what the bible refers to as Armageddon. That should make at least the Christians happy but sucks for the rest of us that don’t subscribe to that antiquated belief system. The need to evolve towards a society that derives its identity from a less dangerous source, and that can dispel the myths and dogma that have shaped our spiritual perspectives is long overdue. I believe this will be largely shaped by science but only to the extent that we’re willing to let go of that which has held us in check through fear and manipulation.

I view bisexuality as the marriage of the male and female energies within. The yin and the yang, working in a harmonious balance in some of us, and as disruptive force in others perhaps not yet conscious of their own nature. God to me is synonymous with Energy. God (the origin and manifestation of this energy that permeates all) and Science (the tool we use in the physical world to understand and describe this energy to the extent that is possible) coexist as well. Science evolves at a very slow rate. Looking back at history it is easy to understand why. It hasn’t been that long ago when compared against the recorded history of man that scientists, were still being burned at the stake as heretics. Witches, Shamans, any freethinking individual of pagan or scientific persuasion were fair game to manipulative controls of religion as they are today. People are still killing and dying in the name of their personal “God”. The technical advances of science have at least advanced our abilities to burn those who disagree with us, (on whosever side God happens to be on or against that day) a little faster and with less of a waiting line. That’s progress.

When I give thanks to those that guide my path, I do so because I am aware that my path has guidance even if it’s bit and pieces of my own creation. I am not the origin of energy but a manifestation of that energy. It gives me comfort and that’s all the reason I need. And on that note I’ll go hang my Xmas lights. :rolleyes:

Ambi :)