Haggard's Hell [Archive]

ambi53mm

Nov 4, 2006, 7:59 AM

The following is from a news article found on CNN

" The Rev. Ted Haggard said Friday he bought methamphetamine and received a massage from a male prostitute. But the influential Christian evangelist insisted he threw the drugs away and never had sex with the man."

:rolleyes: Yeah right!

I do admit there is a certain amount of enjoyment I feel when someone who professes to be “holier than thou” falls from grace. I do however sympathize with the plight of his family, and those who will suffer the consequences of his hypocrisy. Does anyone honestly believe he’s being truthful in denying these allegations? You are innocent until proven guilty…If I got called for jury duty on this one I’m afraid I’d have to disqualify myself for personal bias. I would want him to be guilty even if he wasn't.

Ambi :)

anne27

Nov 4, 2006, 8:03 AM

It amazes me the sheer number of bigoted idiots who get caught in their hypocrisy. Personally, I think he's guilty and it amuses me in a perverse, vindictive sort of way. :2cents:

smokey

Nov 4, 2006, 8:47 AM

I have no sympathy for him or his like...which actually bothers me...I try (but do not always succeed) to be compassionate but his ilk severely push it's limits.

Tocowboycub

Nov 4, 2006, 9:06 AM

OH PUL-EEASE !!!!!!

He is sooooo guilty. No one goes to the trouble of buying drugs and then throws it away. Especially Crystal Meth, that stuff is the most addictive drug on earth.

First he denies even knowing Mike Jones, then changes his story to knowing him but claiming nothing happened...... that's a pathelogical lier. (another thought... Mike Jones is a very sexy man !! LOL)

He's in the same category / group and 'Dr' Laura Schlessinger..... Arrogant, Hollier-than-thou Hypocrits spreading evil messages and destroying lives. (and yes, these people really REALLY piss me off)

I do feel bad for his wife and children. They did nothing wrong (I am assuming), but will pay the biggest price.

Brian

Nov 4, 2006, 9:19 AM

Personally, I'm waiting just a bit longer before I make judgment. I read in one report (if I understood it correctly) that Mike Jones is going to issue more letters/recordings today that address the sex portion of the allegations. It will be very interesting if the letters provide evidence of sexual encounters, because, if so, that will demonstrate that "Pastor Ted" really has lied at absolutely every single step, and is the ultimate hypocrite. Then I will treat myself to a delicious indulgence of guilt-free schadenfreude at Pastor Ted and the religious right's expense. :wiggle2:

- Drew :paw:

12voltman59

Nov 4, 2006, 9:43 AM

Bill Maher on his HBO show, "Real Time" has been having fun with all of the folks on the far right getting outed who have been closeted gays.

On one hand--I kind of laugh at their predicaments because these guys are some of the worst offenders when it comes to the restrictions they would like the government to impose upon all those they would lump into the "gay" catagory.

As I have said before--I am opposed to any restriction of rights for any clasification of person--for liberty denied to some is liberty denied to all.

From this perspective---I do love to see these folks hanging in the wind--but then I do feel sorry for them in a way for the thing in life they seem to hate most is what they find in themselves---they must have such self-loathing.

Let us hope that once they face up to their "gay" side--they will come to have an understanding that being gay/bisexual is not a choice, but is something that is natural and its not "homosexual demons" or the Satan himself that makes them "gay."

They may have to leave behind the life they have lived, because the mindset of those in their world is that homosexuality is an abomination--their "Good Book" tells them so!!!!

But if enough folks who hold this view come to moderate it because they find that they themselves have a homosexual side or a loved one does and it's not something evil, but simply part and parcel of being human---it may be the turning point to get this society to finally accept this fact and then the religious right will allow people to live their lives the way they want to--the way God wants them to!!!

This is probably naive and idealistic --but one can always hope, right??????

JohnnyV

Nov 4, 2006, 9:46 AM

I usually try to hold back from delighting in these scandals, esp. because Haggert actually wanted to pressure the Republicans to deal with global warming and health care, which most evangelicals dismissed in favor of war and hatemongering.

Having said that, as a Christian I say we NEED to expose the right-wing evangelicals for who they are. It's time to get back to the scriptures (which offer little basis for homophobia, actually) and break free from the Republicans. This may be one of a bunch of cluster bomblets dropped on evangelical America that will eventually break the Republican hold on it.

Nonetheless, don't expect a magic revolution if the Dems take Congress on Tuesday. Expect more "center-right" compromises, pro-life and anti-gay Democratic Frankenstein hybrids, lip service to a national health plan with no substance, Bush-blaming with no follow-up, Israel-touting, new threats against Iran (for Israel's sake), and bogus appeals to "security" as the Dems struggle to prove they aren't wimps (which they would prove much better by NOT trying to be Republicans!)

J

Brian

Nov 4, 2006, 10:12 AM

This may be one of a bunch of cluster bomblets dropped on evangelical America that will eventually break the Republican hold on it. I read once, but I don't know how accurate it was, that the Moral Majority movement of the 80's was killed by the Jimmy Swaggart and Jim and Tammy Baker scandals; that the donations dried up after those scandals, and the lack of money killed it.

It would be so nice if the same thing is about to happen now, but I'm not sure that will be the case. The movement now is not so much one group, the Moral Majority, as it is many, many groups. And I think they are much more organized, aggressive and effective than the movement in the 80s was. But it would be nice if we have just witnessed the "high water mark" of evangelical christianity's attempt to force their interpretation of the bible on all of us.

I'm with you JV, I am hopeful but I'm not so sure the future is all bright.

- Drew :paw:

Brian

Nov 4, 2006, 10:26 AM

For the record, I guess the guy's name is "Ted Haggard" not "Haggert", and I've taken the liberty of correcting the thread title.

- Drew :paw:

ambi53mm

Nov 4, 2006, 10:48 AM

"But it would be nice if we have just witnessed the "high water mark" of evangelical christianity's attempt to force their interpretation of the bible on all of us'.
- Drew :paw:

AMEN to that with a couple of halleluiahs thrown in for good measure!!

Ambi :)

canuckotter

Nov 4, 2006, 2:07 PM

AMEN to that with a couple of halleluiahs thrown in for good measure!!
Agreed! :)

One thing that I'd like to see... A lot of people are calling for Muslim organisations to stand up and take a more active role in preventing the spread of the kinds of hate messages that lead to the London Underground bombings, or the idiots here in Canada who wanted to buy explosives to blow up Parliament. I agree with that, personally... but I also think it applies to Christianity. There are many Christians out there who believe in moderation and love and tolerance and peace, it's time for them to start speaking up and stopping the lies spread by these anti-Christian evangelicals. Get Christianity back to its fundamentals, which is about as far from "fundamentalism" as you can get!

12voltman59

Nov 4, 2006, 6:08 PM

On Haggard's behalf--I happened to catch an extended interview on a radio program of a journalist for a mainstream paper-I think it was the Washington Post--has covered Haggard for many years--the reporter said that unlike many other fundamentalist preachers--Haggard never engaged in making disparaging remarks regarding gays--saying instead comments along the lines of "God loves the sinner but hates the sin"--not so enlightened but better than outright condemnation and arbitrarily condeming gays to hell.

Haggard also was known for going into gay bars and trying to evangelize gays--he apparently did bring more than a few "to Christ" and such. Supposedly he helped to cure them of their wayward ways.

While Haggard may not have been a champion of gay rights or anything--at least he did not take part in outright condemnation of gays.

12voltman59

Nov 4, 2006, 6:23 PM

Agreed! :)

One thing that I'd like to see... A lot of people are calling for Muslim organisations to stand up and take a more active role in preventing the spread of the kinds of hate messages that lead to the London Underground bombings, or the idiots here in Canada who wanted to buy explosives to blow up Parliament. I agree with that, personally... but I also think it applies to Christianity. There are many Christians out there who believe in moderation and love and tolerance and peace, it's time for them to start speaking up and stopping the lies spread by these anti-Christian evangelicals. Get Christianity back to its fundamentals, which is about as far from "fundamentalism" as you can get!

Canuckotter: there are many who are evangelical christians who are starting to speak out about the dangers of mixing religion and politics.

There is a minister of a those mega churches(in the Twin Cities area --Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minn.) who is doing that very thing-his name is the Rev. Gregory Boyd.

I ran something on him a few months back, but here is something more:
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=11954

Here is the link the story that brought him to my attention and to many others that I had originally posted:
http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/disowning-conservative-politics-is/20060729195809990004

Here is a link to an article written by Boyd that appeared in the Minneapolis Star Tribune that is sort of interesting:
http://www.startribune.com/562/story/756399.html

twosides

Nov 4, 2006, 7:04 PM

... Haggard never engaged in making disparaging remarks regarding gays--saying instead comments along the lines of "God loves the sinner but hates the sin"--not so enlightened but better than outright condemnation and arbitrarily condeming gays to hell.

Haggard also was known for going into gay bars and trying to evangelize gays--he apparently did bring more than a few "to Christ" and such. Supposedly he helped to cure them of their wayward ways. ...

This is very common among many evangelicals. Especially those that are on the front lines trying to save souls. They see, and often hate that thing within themselves so much, that they are trying to save others from the same problems they are dealing with. Trying to head the problems of others off at the pass, so to speak, before those others go too far down the tubes. Or at least, that's what they say to themselves.

It's also very common, and I have personal experience here, that counselors, therapists, and lay leaders involved in churches, come from a history of XXXXXXX (insert problematic issue here). And I agree that only those that have been there before know best how to deal with those issues. I just hope that the people in the helping business really do have those issues well in hand.

mfanycomb

Nov 4, 2006, 7:34 PM

I love it when a person's righteousness rebounds on them. It's a delicious irony.

The rectitude of these people astounds me. Although I no longer consider myself a christian, I do believe in the parable of the prostitute saved by Jesus. I try not be be the one throwing stones (though I can't resist throwing them at the intolerant & others of that ilk who seek to gain wealth or power by demonizing others).

I understand the desire to feel sorry for his family. But remember his wife choose to marry him & has stayed w/ him & must condone, if not actively promote, the same bilge as he does. His kids may be too young to be independent but probably have already been indoctrinated to his way of thinking--like the young racial bigot.

I lived for many years in the home city of Fred Phelps the real barnburner of all gay haters in the country. I knew him before he flipped out. He was a great labor/discrimiation lawyer at one time. I have no sympathy for him, his wife or his children who all espouse the same hatred, except to the extent that I feel sorry for any slave.

But how long will people living in the alternative stream of American sexuality continue to vote & support the power brokers that embrace these moralists. It's cutting your own throat. I so often come across the gay or swinger who is a rightist conservative. Just as racial groups have a self-interest in certain candidates & issues, so do we & we should start recognizing that fact. :bipride:

coyotedude

Nov 5, 2006, 6:52 PM

I have never bought the oft-used "love the sinner but hate the sin" that I hear so often from the religious right. To me, it's just an excuse to hate, period. Most people I've met who profess to hate the sin didn't give a rat's butt about the sinner, either.

I do believe in "what goes around comes around" and "reap what you sow," and I think the good Rev. Haggard is living proof of those old sayings. I do feel sorry for him; it's clear he has some real problems he has to deal with. But I only feel sorry to a point. When you peddle hate - even with a smile - you shouldn't be surprised when it comes back to bite you, smiling.

On the other hand, I feel uncomfortable passing judgment like this; don't want to sow anything myself that I'm not willing to reap later....

Peace

darkeyes

Nov 5, 2006, 7:33 PM

Hav no time wotever for ne kind of intolerance, cept mayb intolerance of the less savoury aspects of human conditioning, like fascism and national socialism, racism, sexism, an usually religious intolerance.

I say usualy here cos as such I have no bother with what most people believe, but I do loathe and detest religious zealotry and intolerance as preached by the "new right" an the holy Joes of American evanglicalism. It all sounds so false to me, and it is in essence religious fascism.

Wether Haggard did the deed or not I cant say an also adhere to the judicial principle of "innocent until proven guilty", But having said that, there is within me a little hope that he did indeed stray from the path of righteousness, for any little chink, any straw I can grab a hold of which gives me confidence that the world will be freed of wankers like the evangelical right will be grasped with glee and hope that it is yet another nail in their coffin

I do not simply wish this of the cranks like Haggard who claim to be christians, but zionists, islamic screwballs, buddhist nutters (and yes they exist too), indeed ne screwball who screeches crazily at the world at large that his or her way to heaven is right, an gives not a damn about who gets hurt on the way to their insane paradise!

Thank Christ (giggle) Im an athiest!

pasco_lol_cpl

Nov 5, 2006, 10:53 PM

I can t help but chuckle at this reminder of how Karma can be a bitch. But like others have said, I feel some measure of pity for him and a whole lot for his family. I mean what sort of pressures was he under to have to renounce the very thing that he is. Was it greed? Was it pride? Was it having to meet the expectations of others? Maybe thats the Christian side of me speaking out. Who knows, this could wind up being just what he needed to shed the lie of who he was supposed to be. I did see one interview with him this weekend where Barbara Walters has asked him on his opinions on gay and their relationship to God and he did say that God loves everyone equally. Now I don't know what else I missed, but maybe he was trying to say something with that one line.

Brian

Nov 6, 2006, 8:13 AM

Now that Ted Haggard himself has confessed to what he is calling "sexual immorality" (http://news.google.ca/news?hl=en&ned=ca&q=haggard&btnG=Search+News), I think we can safely conclude that Ted Haggard is attracted to men and is therefore "one of us" in that he is attracted to both sexes (assuming he is also attracted to his wife, which I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt on).

So in the form of a little open letter to Pastor Ted Haggard...

Welcome to the club Pastor Ted!

By "club", of course I don't mean the club of illegal drug users,
nor do I mean the club of people who issue public statements which are outright lies,
nor do I mean the club of people who pay for sex,
nor do I mean the club of hypocrites,
nor do I mean the club of people who have an unhealthy attitude toward sex which eventualy leads them to do unethical things (Ted Haggard meet Mark Foley and Jimmy Swaggart),
nor do I mean the club of people who want to force their interpretation of the bible on all,

No, I just mean "welcome to the club" of bisexuals living in a sometimes bisexual-hostile world.

You should have questioned what you were taught, and what you were teaching others, about God, and come to a place like this a long time ago. Then maybe you would not have hurt yourself, and so many others, so much. Bisexuality itself, either in the heart or acted on, hurts no one. All the other things; lieing, cheating, drugs, hypocracy, advocating forced theocracy, prostitution; those are the things that hurt others and are therefore immoral sir!

- Drew :paw:

12voltman59

Nov 6, 2006, 8:31 AM

Amen and Halleluah to that Drew!!!

Great posting!!!!!!

biandu

Nov 6, 2006, 8:31 AM

FIRST LET ME SAY--- I have to read up on this scandal..as i've not heard too much about it......... yes i've been under a rock! lol

Second let me say this:

i'm not a big fan of those... who engage in sexual affairs and then expose their partners! especially knowing that their partner is someone who is closeted and in the public eye... no matter from what arena!

and why is it that this Mike guy made all these recordings in the first place? that tells me SO much about his character.

AGAIN.. i DO have to read up on this.... in order to get the WHOLE picture.. [well, the picture that the media wants us to see anyway]
SO don't come down on me ... yet. okay.

BUT Still.... it's the worst nightmare.. for anyone.... who is closeted..
Isn't it?

and shit like this... pushes people further into the closet. this sort of thing.. is not beneficial for anyone.

unless of course .. a fucking miracle happens..
TED publicly embraces his Bisexuality....
..his family doesn't fall apart,
and he somehow manages.. to rally all his followers and pick up some new ones...
and good ole TED rallies behind us [w/o fucking us]....
and we actually get someone who may have a positive impact on how we as bisexuals are treated!

HELLO! [pinch, nudge, KICK!] WAKE THE FUCK UP.... if you're going to visit never never land.. do it on your own fucking time......

wanderingrichard

Nov 7, 2006, 2:18 AM

but..but,,,,, i don't want him in our club, drew... his hypocrisy will taint everything!!

actually, yes i feel that way to some degree, but i must admit , drew, you did a fantastic job of putting it in words he might understand when he gets to 1st grade

ambi53mm

Nov 7, 2006, 7:03 AM

anne27

Nov 7, 2006, 7:24 AM

I can see it in a vision…..Ted haggard will be preaching from his pulpit tonight a new sermon titled: “ HIS ROD AND HIS STAFF DID COMFORT ME….BUT NOT ANYMORE”

*snorts* *LOL* Oh, that was good! :bigrin:

12voltman59

Nov 7, 2006, 10:21 AM

Here is a creepy video that someone did of Ted Haggard not too long ago along with a report from ABC News on the matter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnYd4R8crKg

Brian

Nov 7, 2006, 12:59 PM

It will be interesting to watch what unfolds over time. Nothing fuels the Christian Right like the redeemed sinner. He could be over time become more dangerous as the born again and then born again poster-child for that particular expression of Right-Wing morality. He’ll need some time to be healed of course. The longer it takes to heal the longer he’ll be able to make the circuit with his new role as the “wayward son’s return to grace”…after all it wasn’t really Ted’s fault, the devil made him do it. ….and lest we forget that catch all phrases of push-button forgiveness….”He’s not perfect…just forgiven” :rolleyes:

His new life mission will be to help those of us that have strayed from the path of righteousness and to save our sexually immoral souls from eternal damnation. Maybe he’ll start a new church dedicated to recovering bisexuals.

I can see it in a vision…..Ted haggard will be preaching from his pulpit tonight a new sermon titled: “ HIS ROD AND HIS STAFF DID COMFORT ME….BUT NOT ANYMORE”

Ambi :) I agree. Reading between the lines of what he and others close to him are saying, including James Dobson, it looks like the foundation is being laid for him to become the posterchild of the "cure homosexuality" movement. And that's not good, because the "cure homosexuality" movement is nasty business indeed - but then again it may work in the favour of goodness and fairness in the long run, because if they can't pull it off convincingly it will just shine a light on the "cure homosexuality" movement which is really just about brainwashing and emotional self-flagelation (done in the name of God though so that makes it okay). There's something more than a bit creepy and cult-like about the "cure homosexuality" movement and I am not sure evangelicals can really make it look good. They risk just highlighting evangelical hypocrisy, creepiness and nastiness even more.

- Drew :paw:

bigregory

Nov 7, 2006, 11:14 PM

biandu

Nov 8, 2006, 8:27 AM

My God.
Holly christ this whole thing seems to be a problem.
It seems this guy called god is causing lots of trouble in the world.
It seems to me that whatever book you read will be how you pick your god.
I like the idea of being my own god.
As my own god Bisexuals are allowed..
How can anyone in this day and age trust in stories that were written so long ago.
I hate religion. :eek:

Religions are different roads converging on the same point. What does
it matter that we take different roads so long as we reach the same goal?
I believe that all religions of the world are true more or less. I say
"more or less" because I believe that everything the human hand touches, by
reason of the very fact that human beings are imperfect, becomes
imperfect.

-Mahatma Gandhi

your post reminded me of this quote..

darkeyes

Nov 8, 2006, 8:56 AM

Religions are different roads converging on the same point. What does
it matter that we take different roads so long as we reach the same goal?
I believe that all religions of the world are true more or less. I say
"more or less" because I believe that everything the human hand touches, by
reason of the very fact that human beings are imperfect, becomes
imperfect.

-Mahatma Gandhi

your post reminded me of this quote..

God should she exist causes no problems. It is the selfish interpretations and even misinterpretations and power struggling of imperfect human beings which are the trouble. Which I think is the point Biandu through the words of the Mahatma is making and with which I wholeheartedly agree.

biandu

Nov 8, 2006, 10:10 AM

God should she exist causes no problems. It is the selfish interpretations and even misinterpretations and power struggling of imperfect human beings which are the trouble. Which I think is the point Biandu through the words of the Mahatma is making and with which I wholeheartedly agree.

yes.. exactly.

mmmmmmm dark eyes eh.. lovely.

ambi53mm

Nov 8, 2006, 10:04 PM

The following was taken from a recent article titled “ Haggard begins Spiritual Restoration”

HAGGARD BEGINS SPIRITUAL RESTORATION

“There will be prayer, and perhaps the laying on of hands. There will be counseling and a confession. And there will be advice, confrontation and rebuke from "godly men" appointed to oversee the spiritual "restoration" of the Rev. Ted Haggard.”

“After tumbling from the pinnacle of the American evangelical movement amid allegations he snorted meth and cavorted with a male prostitute, Haggard has agreed to a rehabilitation process that could last three to five years”.

"I see success approximately 50 percent of the time," said H.B. London, vice president for church and clergy at Focus on the Family, the conservative Christian ministry in Colorado Springs. "Guys just wear out and they can no longer subject themselves to the process”.
Those who fail "end up selling cars or shoes or something, and being miserable and angry the rest of their lives," London said.

:confused: Hmmmm
Three to five years of being rebuked by “Godly Men” rather than following the natural dictates of one’s own spirit, might make selling cars or shoes the healthier alternative. I don’t suppose “Godly Men” ever consider that by living in a perpetual state of sexual denial might somehow also make “those that fail” miserable or angry for the rest of their lives.

Ambi :)

Brian

Nov 8, 2006, 10:41 PM

“There will be prayer, and perhaps the laying on of hands. There will be counseling and a confession. And there will be advice, confrontation and rebuke from "godly men" appointed to oversee the spiritual "restoration" of the Rev. Ted Haggard.” ... Haggard has agreed to a rehabilitation process that could last three to five years”.
Evangelical christianity calls it "restoration" and "rehabilitation"; more politically correct than what it really is, brainwashing.

- Drew :paw:

ambi53mm

Nov 8, 2006, 11:13 PM

Evangelical christianity calls it "restoration" and "rehabilitation"; more politically correct than what it really is, brainwashing.

- Drew :paw:

Yes that's exactly what it is lol... and they are Masters in the art of deception as well.

Ambi :) Chapter: 6 verse: 37

Brian

Nov 9, 2006, 8:41 AM

There will be... the laying on of hands... and a confession.Sounds homoerotic too. 'Tell me all your dirty thoughts big boy, while I touch you.'

- Drew :paw:

Jingleheimer

Nov 9, 2006, 1:40 PM

What to say?
After the creation of the Roman church, sexual repression became a norm in the West. I will be willing to bet that Haggard's indiscretions were(are?) fueled by a nice dose of religious indoctrination. Forcing people to live in a left-brain prison and turn off any desire that could be an expression of one's personal freedom will have very negative effects on one's psyche.
i.e.: A friend of mine who is 'incidentally' a masculine-type lesbian told me about her upbringing in a Catholic school, where she learned to be ambidexterous. She was left-handed and every time she used her left hand to write (the hand of the Devil) she would be punished, usually by ruler or paddle. She was expected to be straight....just like all of the historically hetero-devout, non predatory priests and nuns are........right?!....right...

If all of these eveangelicals are so much against homosexuality, why do they not fight tooth-and-nail against the unspeakable forced sex committed in this country in the prisons, not to mention prisons for kids and the boystowns? Why?
Because they are against FREEDOM, not homosexuality per se. Misery loves company, and all of these religious nuts are not satisfied with living in self-induced misery on their own, they must drag us all down for the ride.
Bisexuality is natural, and if you fight nature, you will always lose!
Bisexuals represent a threat to the religious establishment because we are(at least I believe) more open, intelligent, and realistic than the herd. Why is it every bisexual person I have ever met has a keen nose and eye for gift-wrapped bullshit? Which is exactly what religion is...

"Religion is for people who fear hell. Spirituality is for people who have been to hell and back." -anonymous

Bicuriousity

Nov 10, 2006, 10:28 PM

coyotedude

Nov 11, 2006, 1:00 AM

Bicuriousity, I think it is true that many here are biased against some groups of Christians. And some are biased against all Christians.

But it is also true that too much of the modern church is filled with hypocrisy, at least in this country. And I believe this hypocrisy drives much of the bitterness that bothers you in this thread.

As you may recall, Christ himself railed against hypocrisy in the Temple of his day. You can find Christ's scathing criticisms against the religious elite throughout the four gospels.

Think about the story in John where Christ was approached about a sinner condemned to death by stoning. Christ was challenged to acknowledge the righteousness of the verdict and the punishment. His response? "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."

Yet too much of the modern church does not live by this dictum. Too much of the modern church forgets that the core of Christ's message was love. From love comes mercy, and Christ's mission was in fact a mission of mercy. Yet too much of the modern church confuses righteousness with hatred, mercy with contempt, love with fear.

In fact, there are many Christians who struggle hard to walk their talk and to live their life in a good way. I have great respect for those folks, even if I myself am not a Christian. But I am greatly angered when hatred is peddled in the name of God. And I have every right to be.

Mind you, such abuse of God happens all too often in human history. This is not, strictly speaking, a Christian phenomenon or an Islamic phenomenon or a Hindu phenomenon. Yet it is important for those of us who believe in God (in whatever form) to speak out when God is being hijacked by those whose aims are hurtful.

And yes, there is a big difference between religion and spirituality.

Just my :2cents: (okay, this is pretty long, so maybe I'm up to 2 bucks now)

Peace

ambi53mm

Nov 11, 2006, 3:54 AM

Unfortunately many of you are just as bigoted against Christians as the people you like to laugh at.
I think a real bisexual can respect anyone and not bash people for having different religion or political beliefs.
Liberal hate groups have been on the rise as well. As a true independent I just don't see how you don't notice this hypocrisy.
I guess what I mean to say is don't wish harm on everybody because karma can be a bitch.

Bicuriosity,

Even if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice. This very thread is laden with Karmic justice. Haggard creates his own reality by the actions he chooses to take. Choosing to point out the obvious hypocrisy and having an intelligent discussion does not make one neither a bigot nor a "real bisexual". My issue of intolerance is not with the teachings of Jesus but with those who choose to represent him in a way that is contrary to the very core of everything he stood for. This is nothing new considering the very land you sit on was once inhabited by a people branded heathens and all but annihilated by those of like mind to Haggard.
When it comes to people like Haggard I can’t with good conscious take a middle of the road attitude and if that’s viewed as being hypocritical or bigoted then by all means let it be so. LOL but it in no way makes me less of a bisexual. I hold a Masters Degree in Religion and I am not a Christian. I take my spirituality very seriously and consider myself a spiritual warrior when it comes to defending those against Christian Imperialism. In my opinion more harm has been done under the banners of Christianity than any other religion on the face of this earth and it continues today.

Karma is about cause and effect and nobody is immune. There is no middle of the road per se. Do good things and maybe good things will happen to you…Do bad things and reap what you sow.

Ambi :)

bi_scott

Nov 11, 2006, 5:09 AM

Ok. I am new here but here are my thoughts. My personal feelings are that we are all hypocritical in one way or another, it is an ingrained flaw of being a human being. If I comment on Haggard being hypocritical then my own hypocrasy stands. The point is that we are all learning - we are learning who we are, what we are and we are learning those things in the context in our own position in life that we find ourselves in, a position that no-one else can appreciate or understand but merely 'view'. I have to 'view' objectionally and I feel sorry for Haggard. I am completely in awe at the public response that his wife is offering (whether this is true, I dont know) but she is offering nothing but support for her husband. In the 'churches' eyes this guy has 'fallen' his wife and some close friends are standing by him to help him.

We can all point, judge, criticise and perhaps I am just an eternal optimist. The fact is that this guy got it wrong, we all do, who am I to judge or condemn. We life life, once. I hope that he will gain clarity and understanding on who he is and will be able to enjoy this with those around him, irrespective of his religious beliefs.

izzfan

Nov 18, 2006, 2:03 PM

I mean things like this whole buisness with Haggard just go to show that homosexuality/bisexuality is a part of any group of society, in any area and it is just as 'natural' as heterosexuality. No matter how much these fundamentalists thunder from the pulpit about the 'evils' of homosexuality/bisexuality... they will NEVER stop it because it is part of nature. As for Haggard as a person, I do feel sorry for him to a certain extent... if he has had to suffer years of living a lie and self-loathing then I sympathise with him and feel sorry for him as a fellow human. But as for what Haggard stood for, I can only gloat at the sheer hipocrisy of the Christian Right in America and hope that they finally see that it is pointless to repress people's sexuality as it causes nothing but suffering (that goes for all religions by the way... sex and religion are a bad combination).
It seems terrible that Haggard is trying to 'rehabilitate' himself and go back into the closet... but can you blame him? I mean for all his life he's probably had religious doctrine hammered into him so he knows no better, so in his own distorted view of the world he thinks that he is somehow 'wrong/ evil/sinful' for sleeping with another man. I mean there are probably millons of fundamentalists (of all faiths) just like Haggard who are thundering about the 'evils' of homosexuality/bisexuality while hypocritically practicing it themselves. I see this whole incident as another nail in the coffin of organised religon (which let's face it, is more political than spiritual).

Izzfan

(by the way, don't think that I am having a go at religious belief...Im not, I think everyone should have the freedom to believe what they like as long as they dont use it as justification for harming anyone... I am only criticising organised religion which often has a political agenda behind it)