Is there hope for us?

[deremarc]

I don't know if any of you remember me. I am the straight female, with a guy that I am pretty sure is bisexual, but he won't admit it.

I had no clue...he would be described as a bear (maybe a chubby bear), very masculine....no hints in personal style or actions.

I know because he belongs to Squirt, and watches gay porn, has had cyber sex with guys, and chat archives (which he allowed me to see finally) show that he has had oral sex performed on him, and performed anal sex on men before.

He swears he is not gay or bi....he doesn't "touch" them (except of course with his d***) and doesn't kiss, and he is done.

But, this issue keeps coming up. I catch him, he quits and cries and tells me he loves me...and then 2 months later we cycle around again.

I have told him I love him with my whole heart no matter what, I am not homo or bi phobic...I have several friends and family members who are homo or bi sexual.

We had gone 4 months now, after he finally admitted that he did it. He swore it was over and nothing has happened.

Yesterday, I asked if he was struggling and he said no. But, then he got mad and said if I was gonna accuse him (and how on earth is "honey, you seem so unhappy and depressed lately, are you struggling with this issue again? i love you and want you to be happy" an accusation?!!!?) then he was going to do it.

Well, I left the house and within 5 minutes he was in Adult Friend Finder, Sexy Ads and Squirt. He stayed at the computer for several hours looking.

We had a terrible row over it last night. I am still crying today (the tears must be welled up behind my eyes...I work at home...and keep leaving the computer to "do" something...anything...trying to take my mind off of things...and when I learned over to scrub the kitchen tiles...tears just fell out in a steady stream...when I shampooed my car carpets...the same damn thing happened!)

He blamed me for him doing it. That is what upsets me the most. He said that he didn't want to, didn't like it....yada yada...he just did it because he was mad at me....I don't know of any straight guys that would look at naked men and have cyber with them just to get back at their wive or girlfriend...

I fear he is never going to come out (I don't hold out any hope that he ISN'T bi...and sorry...I don't mean to be offensive...but I don't really want him to want sex with someone else...being bi would be okay, acting on it would hurt me deeply...at least at this point.)

I know you have to come out to yourself first, but at this point, for the sake of my sanity and our relationship, I just wish he would say...I like having sex with guys and I want to do it. God!!!! I just want to deal with it....get it out in the open.

If he is this deep in denial is there any hope for us?

I'm scared that he is feeling the pull of desire so strong, and is fighting it and may just act out like he did pre "us", and hook up with men on the net or at a glory hole or something...which I have been told is a valid fear.

I don't know what to do...I love him very much, but am on the verge of leaving...does anyone have advice or hope or anything?

He projects, he blames me, he isn't taking responsibility for his own actions, or even being honest with himself, much less with me....

If he were honest, I think I could allow him to have sex with other men. He is great to me in all other areas...we laugh we talk we love....but this issue is killling me and us....

[deremarc]

If you read this and have anything...I would appreciate you letting me know...I don't care if it is hope, or advice or criticism of how I am handling things...

I am just so lost right now and have no one to talk to...I can't talk about this with anyone...I would not betray my man that way...

Would love to hear thoughts...

[smokey]

Dear... leave now and do not look back.

He is so into denial that nothing is going to make him admit it and that is no way to live.

If he had the balls to come to terms with his sexuality, then you two might have a chance to reach some sort of accommodation but not until.

Besides that basic fact is that he is blaming you and it is not a far step from there to abuse...if not physical, then emotional and mental...hell blaming you is already mental abuse.

The angst just drips off your post and my heart goes out to you.

Leave now...he has to work this out on his own, or not, and if he doesn't he will make not only himself, but everyone around him miserable.

The bottom line on this is that it really isn't a bisexual or homosexual issue, its an honesty issue, and if he cannot be honest with himself he will never be honest with you...about anything.

He is not your man.... you have just been with him.

[deremarc]

Thank you for your post. It is what I am thinking...this will never end...the lies and hiding will never stop...

I love him...it would hurt me profoundly to leave...but I do have to think of me...and my kids...too

[anne27]

There is always hope. I don't believe in giving up until you've tried everything. The man needs to get into some form of counselling. He needs to understand himself and get rid of his rage and stop blaming you.

There's not a whole lot you can do except stay supportive, talk to him about getting some help, and wait it out. Or leave.

My thoughts are with you. I know this is a rough thing to deal with. I've dealt with similar, but we made it through.

good luck!

[Tocowboycub]

Hi there

I don't think there's much hope until he starts being honest with himself. I have to agree with Smokey 100%. It's an honesty issue, pure and simple.

You have to think of what's best for you in the long run. Do you want to continue this cycle every couple of months ?

Please excuse my bluntness, but after readiing your post, I thought to myself, that guy's an ass. You seem very caring and open, and have given him a wide open door to be honest with himself and you, and he didn't take the chance. What a FOOL ! Then blaming you for his bad behaviour. That isn't a man (that's a spoiled child throwing a temper tantrum).

The romantic in me wants to say 'Love will conquer all', but sadly, we all know that isn't true.

All the best to you. Your decision won't be easy, nor will leaving, but I'm betting that you'll do just fine, and very soon, you will find someone that deserves you, and treats you properly.

Hope I've helped a bit.
HUGS
S

[smokey]

While I understand Anne's sentiments and would generally agree with her, cowboy cub is unfortunately right on the money...especially if there are children involved.

Then, and this has to be brought up, is the AIDS issue...if he has so little respect for himself to even be honest with himself, he is not going to have respect for his partners and that means you as well....that means especially you. Places like adult friend finder are not much better than park out houses and the baths, adult bookstores and glory holes...do you really think he is going to be honest about whether he uses a condom or practices safe sex or not?

NO!

We bisexuals are more often than not, honest and caring people, just like most everybody else, but people (most often men) in denial are by the very fact of their denial, are untrustworthy.

If you cannot be honest with yourself, you can't be honest with anybody.

[deremarc]

Thank you all for taking the time to reply. I do want to be supportive of him, I love him, but I am thinking this is something he needs to work out on his own. And, I don't think I can live with it the way things are now.

[deremarc]

And cowboycub, I do forgive you bluntness..it made me feel better for the first time today to hear you say you think he is being an ass.

I do too, I just for some reason am having trouble letting go...I feel like I am giving up on him and us, but it does take too.

And, no matter what, I will support him, but maybe it needs to be as a friend...

[happyjoe68]

Secrets and lies destroy relationships, and to be honest with others you first have to be honest to yourself.

To be in denial is one thing, and perfectly acceptable/understandable, but to blame others is another thing entirely.

To project and to lash out at others shows deep-rooted anxieties, and to overcome these, time is needed, in which your boyfriend has to come out to himself. Your boyfriend needs to know what he stands to lose, before he can come to terms with himself. People have said leave him. I'm not sure if ending the relationship in a blunt manner is the answer, but you need time away from him, and vice versa. This does not guarantee anything, but what will you gain by staying? Right now, it sounds as if you have nothing to lose and nothing to win.

Its a shit situation, whatever you do will cause you pain. But as a famous fictional character once said: "Any truth is better than indefinite doubt".

[csrakate]

Sorry to say so, but I agree with Cowboycub.

Yes, there is always hope, but it takes two to accomplish that end in a relationship. You seem to be working alone! And I am sorry, his saying your questions and your search for the truth cause him to want to be with a man...BULL!

You seem to have been nothing but open and willing to talk yet he continues to stay in denial. I wish you the best of luck, but until he becomes real with himself, he will never be real with you. And from the looks of things, he is far from getting there.

Hugs,
Kate

[deremarc]

Thanks all again....funny how the word "hugs" from a stranger can make you feel better...but it did...

so, Kate, thanks so much for the "hug" i so badly needed today....

i think i am going to at least ask for a "break"...tell him i think he needs to deal with these issues...and maybe that involves being alone...

and that I need time to deal and to heal without the constant day to day worries...

i set up a meeting for me with a bi friendly counselor....

[gentlepen9]

Deremarc,
I, like Cowboycub am a romantic and believe that patience, honesty and love will conquer all but my initial reaction to your post was that you should leave. It's a difficult situation but ultimately you need to think of what is truly best for yourself. His blaming you for his own behavior clearly sounds like a man who can't accept the fact that he likes men and therefore needs to believe that you're the cause for his action. As much as I don't want to admit it but even I went through a brief period where I felt that my husband was the cause/blame for my same sex attractions. It wasn't until I fully accepted that I was bisexual and finally came out to him that the need to blame him went away. I'm now able to fully love him for who he is rather than being angry at him for not being more like a woman. Fortunately I never out right blamed him for anything to his face nor did I go out and seek sex with other women. But the inner struggle was clearly something I had to deal with myself and that's something that your boyfriend needs the time to face. As long as you're there he can stay in denial by continually blaming you. If you're not there he has no one to blame but himself.
My heart truly goes out to you. This is a difficult thing to deal with and I wish you the best in whatever decision to make.
Take care.
Sincerely
gentlepen9

[shameless agitator]

I also say run, do not walk away from this man. I understand where Anne is coming from, but he's never going to deal with his sexuality and come out of denial until avoidance starts to create problems. You deserve a partner who is sure of who he is and can be honest with himself & with you.

[Herbwoman39]

Oh my heart goes out to you sweetie. I've been in a marriage wherein I was blamed for his mistakes. It's mental abuse, pure and simple. YOU are doing nothing wrong.

I know it's hard to let him go. I'd like to make a few suggestions though if you don't mind. You mention that you have children; if there is going to be a separation, HE should be the one to move out while he deals with this issue. It is unreasonable to ask the children to move because of him. It is also unreasonable to ask that you uproot yourself and leave the children with him.

Counceling is a wonderful thing. It will give you some excellent tools but in the end, the only person you can change is YOU. He has to learn his own lessons.

Once you have made up your mind, stick with that decision. Don't let him beg his way back into your good graces. An abuser will say/do horrible things then lament his ways and beg to get back into your good graces. Once you have made up your mind, don't let him disuade you.

No matter what happens, you always have your friends here :-)

(((((((((HUGS))))))))))

[bim4mmf]

Hello, I hope this helps. I am a married male who is interested in guys also. I have never acted on any of my desires. all of my experiences happened before i met my wife. I have tried to start to bring the topic to her, hinting around it etc. however she is very conservative and would never understand. I love my wife and am afraid if i came right to her with it she would leave. As i said before i do not cheat, but i do have the desires and sometimes they are strong.
To me a guy could never replace her or any other woman i was ever involved with, there is no emotional connection, purely physical. I could never even kiss another guy as that signifies romance to me.
I wish i had a wife who was at least understanding of me and my desires. I would love to have an open relationship where she could participate, but such is not the case. Personally, i think your husband is foolish, as you have come right out to him and told him you are aware of this and would be supportive. Many guys arent so lucky.
Well i hope this helps you coming from a guy in a similar situation, but without the support that you are providing

[canuckotter]

First off.... **HUGS**

Second.... As has been pointed out, you've done absolutely nothing wrong. You've been supportive and kind and forgiving and loving, and his response has been to attack. There's a major problem in your relationship, and none if it is because of you. Your boyfriend is being an ass. Maybe he has reason, considering what seems to be serious psychological issues, but that doesn't mean he's not being an ass. Not saying he necessarily is a complete ass, but he sure as hell is playing the part convincingly!

I'm not going to say there's no hope, because I truly believe that there is a chance. But it really is a very small chance, and it's all up to your boyfriend. If he can't be honest with himself, he can't be honest with you; and from the sounds of it, he's getting more desperate for excuses and for someone to blame, and that's not healthy for either of you or your kids.

Honestly... maybe it's time to stop being so understanding. Stop letting him get away with bullshit. Make him accept responsibility for his own actions. And if he doesn't, then it's time to find something healthier.

Hopefully the shock of being confronted, or of having you leave, will make him smarten up and he'll apologise to you and try to work things out, and things will turn out well for everyone. It's not likely, but hey, you never know. If it works, hooray! If not... Well, at least you'll be in a healthier situation.

Sorry. I wish I had happier advice. :( I know this can't be easy for you. If you need anything, let us know.

Oh, and before I forget... Have some more **HUGS**

[bim4mmf]

Sorry, i had forgotten to reply to other parts of your post. First of all none of this is your fault. you are being supportive. you are not to blame for him having these desires. they are his desires. you are willing to be supportive of him, in at the very least, consenting to relationships, in order to make him happy, alot of women would not do that.
I wish all the best to you

[mistymockingbird]

To echo many of the others, you need to leave. You can take the sexuality issue completely away and you still have a situation where a partner will not or can not be honest with you. You've done your part, relationships take two people. You are not solely to blame for the issues in your relationship.

I was in an abusive marriage for years. I completely understand how hard it can be to walk away from someone that you love. I understand how you can love someone even when you know they are treating you poorly. I'd like to pass along some advice that was given to me (from my best friend the therapist) when I was contemplating divorce...Sometimes people stay in situations even though they know they are bad, because there is comfort in knowing what to expect. Change is a hard, scary thing. However, if the only reason you are staying is because you are afraid of the change, then there is no bigger indication that you should go. Nothing is put in our path that we do not have the strength to face. Also, there comes a point when you have to start taking care of yourself. If someone in your life is preventing you from living your best life, then that person needs to go. You can't fix someone else's problems. We can only fix our own problems. Yes, being supportive of our loved ones is great, but you can not do it at the expense of your own soul.

Listen to your gut. In your heart of hearts you know what the right decision for you is and ultimately only you can make that decision. Feel free to message me directly if you want to talk more, or keep posting here on the boards, this is a community, we help each other out.

hugs

[glantern954]

I don't see what choice you have but to end your romantic relationship with him and just be a supportive friend. He doesn't seem to have an ounce of respect for you and as long as you tolerate it that's not going to change. I wouldn't hold out hope, but maybe the real threat of losing you might just be the push he needs to get into therapy. Sadly, that therapy might not lead him back to you and you need to keep that in mind.

If your departure doesn't lead to therapy for him, move on with your life. If you haven't already found them, join the straight spouse network and talk to women who have been through similiar hell.

http://www.straightspouse.org/

I wish I could say everything will be OK, but it looks bleak until he gets into therapy and starts treating you with the honesty and respect you deserve.

[SLIMES]

I wasn't going to respond to this thread because I'm not very good at this, but something in the previous post stuck out. You can't stay with someone just out of fear of the unknown. Ending (or suspending) a marriage is very hard but staying with someone because you are (quite justifiably) afraid will be even harder in the long run.

Would you accept any of this if he was seeing other women? Of course not.

The bottom line is: WHAT HE IS DOING IS WRONG.

Gay/str8/bi you don't treat someone you love like that.

The title you gave to this post suggests that you would rather stay together:- "is there any hope for us?" and i think you have to ask him that. 'are you gay or bi because we both know that you are not 100% straight." If he doesn't give an honest answer then that's a 'no there is no hope for us'.

That may seem harsh but I believe it's true.

Lots of love, SLIMES

[deremarc]

Thanks again for the "hugs" and support.

Maybe I am scared of change, of leaving...of "failing" again at a relationship, but I do truly love him too.

Maybe the break will be a wake up call for him, and maybe not. It will have to wait until tomorrow though as he is out of town.

I am now attempting to imagine life without him...I know what he is doing is wrong, and I guess this is the hard thing about any bad relationship...if it was ALL bad no one would have trouble just walking out....so, of course there are good parts to the relationship...

One of the hardest things is i feel such empathy for him...I know he is struggling, I know he hurts....and I want to "fix" it...but I am learning...they only person I can change is myself...

Thanks again everybody, and I will let you know how it goes...

[taz67156]

hey deremarc,
I really hope things start getting better for you, I've got to agree with everyone else that he is bi and doesn't want to admit it to himself so its going to make things harder for you to deal with so don't blame yourself cause your not the one in denial he is, leave no options out try everything to make it last between you and him until you can't do anything else.

good luck,
taz67156

P.S. (((((((((((((((Deremarc))))))))))))

[Just_Gem]

Hey deremarc
I have read your posts on this before and haven't responded, even though I have kept up with what has been going on, at least since I've been coming here. This post though touched a part of me that compelled me to respond even though some of what I have to say has already been said, so forgive me if I repeat some things that have been said already.



Maybe I am scared of change, of leaving...of "failing" again at a relationship, but I do truly love him too.



You can only fail if both are giving 100% to the relationship and from the sound of it, you are trying to make up for the lack in his giving 100%. You cannot make that up for him, he needs to give that himself. When 1 partner isn't giving their 100% then the relationship isn't whole. In order for a relationship to be whole both partners need to give their own 100% to it. If you or he are only giving 50% then all you have is half a relationship. From what you write, he is the one not fulfilling his commitment to this relationship.


Maybe the break will be a wake up call for him, and maybe not. It will have to wait until tomorrow though as he is out of town.

Look at it as though he were an addict. Many addicts need to lose everything before they look at themselves for the solution to the problem. No matter what you decide, face to face is the best way to handle this situation, as long as you aren't in any physical danger by doing so. From what you have written so far, that doesn't seem to be an issue, at least at this point, but could become one if the situation continues as it is. The more desperate he becomes to remain in his state of denial, the more ways he will use to lash out at you and that could also spill over to your children. Even if he doesn't become physically abusive to them, the emotional damage that would be done to them would actually be worse and the lessons they learn now as children will be with them for the rest of their lives. Emotional scars often take a lot longer to heal than physical ones, and sometimes never heal.


I am now attempting to imagine life without him...I know what he is doing is wrong, and I guess this is the hard thing about any bad relationship...if it was ALL bad no one would have trouble just walking out....so, of course there are good parts to the relationship...


I have worked at women's shelters and counseling centers and not all women (or men either for that matter) will leave a relationship that is ALL bad. Their reasons are as varied as the people, but ultimately it comes down to fear - fear of being alone - fear of the unknown and others. They hang on to anything good they can find as a hope that things will get better if they stay and try to find a way to "FIX" things. Again, it takes 2 in a relationship to make it work, and honesty is the bottom line. Without total honesty from both partners, there is no hope of a future.


One of the hardest things is i feel such empathy for him...I know he is struggling, I know he hurts....and I want to "fix" it...but I am learning...they only person I can change is myself...


Love alone won't fix anything, and often times leads the one doing all the work into co-dependency - covering up, lying, rationalizing behavior, etc. to try to make things seem better than they are. That feeling of empathy you talk about is one way that the co-dependant lies to him/herself and rationalizes staying in a bad relationship. You are right about only fixing yourself, and in the same vein, only he can fix himself. Nothing you can do will fix him. He has to want to change and from what you have written, he doesn't seem willing to even be honest with himself at this point. Again, just as many addicts won't seek help as long as there is someone around to enable them, blame for their behavior, take out their own self-anger on, etc.

You talk about children as well. Think of them and what kind of environment you want them to grow up in. Is it really better to stay in a dishonest, stressfilled and yes abusive relationship (what he is doing is mental and emotional abuse) and have them learn that kind of relating to others or leave and find another that is healthy, open and honest?


Thanks again everybody, and I will let you know how it goes...


Please do keep us informed. As was stated above, he is the one that really should leave but often in situations such as this were the wrong one is in total denial, they see no reason to leave. In their mind they did nothing wrong and have the "right" to stay where they are. It may be such for you at this point as well. It may be that you will need to up-root you and your children in order to start over.

Hugs and prayers to you as you struggle with this. :grouphug:
Gem

[Herbwoman39]

...of "failing" again at a relationship

Having been in an abusive relationship, let me point something out and you don't have to answer this post. Just be absolutely honest with yourself and think about this. Are you doing the best that you know how right now in this moment?

The answer is yes, because how can you possibly know more or do better than you have been? Is it possible to know more than you do right now? No. You know what you know. In an hour you may know more.

Don't punish or second guess yourself. You did the best that you knew how to do. No one can expect more than that. And THAT is not a failure. It takes two to make a relationship work. If you're doing the work and he isn't, YOU are the sucessful one.

Take care of yourself first.

*HUGS*

[deremarc]

I am trying the best i know how...and maybe that is just it...if he were different or i were different it may work...but I can't live a life of lies/betrayals/blaming etc...

He may never be happy if he can't deal with this...I do understand how hard it must be although I have not had personal struggles with it...I understand all the reasons not to come out..I feel his pain, and see his self-hatred as well...

I truly wish the best for him and hope he comes to grips with this....if he would just come here or somewhere and talk and find himself "normal" and not alone...I think he would be better able to deal..

He will not try counselling...alone or with me...I have made an appointment and am going on my own...

I think if I were with a different guy struggling with this issue...the results may have been different...this was in a different thread, but he told me once that I was "right" and "good" (due to being straight?) and I told him I am "right" because I am who I am....I am true to myself...but there is no right or wrong here otherwise...there are tons of people like him, and people like me and people different than both of us...how on earth can the way you are born make you wrong?

I feel badly for portraying him in a bad light...and he is being an ass right now and , well always, about this...but he is a great person otherwise...

maybe some psych issues from growing up....

The co-dependent post by Gem hit home for me...and someones post about being too understanding and maybe laying down some rules or boundaries...maybe I have not helped him, but just given him the ability to go further into denial, by taking on his issues as my own...and allowing him to make me feel guilty and responsible for his actions...

we have not spoken about this yet...i feel as if i am abandoning him...it scares me for him....and without me, he is truly alone in his struggle now...but maybe that is the way it has to be...

my heart is aching now...i had such hopes and dreams for us...i even thought if he came to grips with being bi and needed to be with a guy...i could figure out a way to "allow' that and still be happy and complete in our relationship...

but, i guess it is not to be...

[csrakate]

Wow...you have so much insight into your situation, but you have way too much guilt associated with it as well! Enabling behavior stems from a desire to help and to "fix things" for others and yes, even control situations, but even though it is not a healthy behavior, it is far from evil in intent, especially on your part. You saw the man you love struggling, not willing to do anything on his part to rectify the situation much less to acknowledge it and you did what anyone in love would do....you tried your hardest to help. But he wouldn't accept your help and chose instead to turn things around and make you feel responsible.

So please...whatever you do, know that you did what you did out of love and compassion and now is the time to let him figure things out on his own. I applaud you for making an appointment with a counselor...if you can't help the one you love find peace, at least you are making sure that you do!

Best of luck to you!

Hugs,
Kate

[deremarc]

Can you tell I was raised with guilt? LOL...due to being raised by a 5'2" single mom of 8...it was her method of choice in getting us to toe the line...

I realize that my enabling/co-dependence is not healthy...didn't even see it until it was pointed out in a post...

I will get help for me...and I guess that is all I can do...I too have been a hopeless romantic...and would love to believe that loving someone (each other) is enough..

I am sure he loves me....he just isn't where he needs to be to have a "true" relationship...

And, my insight comes from thinking way too d*** much sometimes....and from all of you great people here...i have evolved and learned a lot over the past several months :)

[sam08537]

My heart goes out to you. Your husband is so in denial the only thing that is going to help either of you (and both of you) is therapy. With a therapist that isn't going to try and "cure" him of his bisexuality, or what may even be his homosexuality. If your husband won't go, start going to therapy on your own. It won't necassarily fix the relationship, but it will give you the skills you need to make appropriate decisions for you and your children. You can't make him do what you want him to do and the sooner you realize that, the happier you will be. You can't help him sort this out or sort it out for him, the only thing you can do is be supportive IF he comes to you for support. There is already a fundamental flaw in your relationship that this issue is exasperating and that is that you all don't/can't trust each other. He sneaks around on the internet and what not and you sneak around checking your cookies and files to catch him. Seek therapy. As embarressing as it is at first (and this is the voice of experience speaking here) it is worth every minute you spend there and every dime it costs. Good luck.

[deremarc]

I've addressed this on a different post, but I first found out about the guys when we were cruising the internet together and an instant message popped up 4x before I read it...kinda hard to avoid it anyway, when it is right in front of you...and it referenced wanting anal sex with my husband from a guy.

Prior to him, and in all my relationships I have always valued privacy...for instance, I have never read notes or diaries of my kids even if they are laying around and never got in my exes wallet or dresser or anything...

I asked him the first time to show me his archives if there was nothing there...and he did...even knowing I would find them.

We share a computer and sometimes things pop up, even if you aren't looking...but I will admit to snooping, quite a lot in fact...I was scared silly that he was actually meeting people and going to bring me home a gift that would shorten my life...

That is part of why I know this has to stop...I am scared of what actions I am doing (the snooping/suspicion/lack of trust)...and I don't want to become that kind of person..and carry those issues into a new relationship if this one doesn't work out...

I trusted him implicitly in the beginning..he was my best friend...and I thought we both knew each other quite well...

But, it scared the s*** out of me when I realized that he was lying right to my face, even knowing as he did so that when he would log me into his archives and when I read them I would know the facts for myself...and lying Quite well as a matter of fact...

I would have bought it hook, line, and sinker if I wouldn't have had contradictory proof right in front of me...

Should I have given up then when I knew the trust was gone? Maybe...and maybe not...things could have turned out differently...

But, the remark that neither one of us trusts each other is quite true. He denies lack of trust on his side, but it is there...in the lying and hiding...and the fear that I won't accept him...(or maybe, honestly, his fear is I won't put up with what he intends to do...and intends to do regardless of what effect it might have on me/us/him).

I have found a bi-friendly therapist for me...one that won't say awful things about him...or who he is...and maybe some one someday that he might go to...who knows...

I never have talked about this with anyone in my real life...if he wants to stay closeted that is his choice...and I would never do that to him...but even if that were not a factor, I would not have told anyone anyway...I was too scared they would think me a fool for staying with a bi guy....(with or without honesty/trust issues) and I didn't want to hear that...I love him and wanted to stay...and not feel guilty for doing so...

But, now I want a happy life for me and my kids....and I don't think I am getting it here...

but, god! i will miss him... :(

[sam08537]

WOOPS I shoulda read the whole thread huh? I stated in a post on a different thread that I came on here today, for the first time since I joined, ready to talk.

Good for you for finding a therapist. My therapist was the best thing that ever happened to me. I was so embarressed when I first started going...but not nearly as embarressed as I would have been if I had slit my wrists which is where I was headed. It's hard to be that laid open in front of another human being, especially when you have to give voice to things that you can barely admit to yourself let alone someone else.

Good luck.

[erotix]

If when confronted with the facts, he can't face them means you can't trust him to have safe sex or make good decisions. That puts you at risk.

Sometimes men "cheat" on wives becuase the wives couldn't handle the truth about thier husbands or their needs. This is not the case. You are handling it.

You are wise to put distance between you, your kids and him. That might wake him up.

However, you are not responsible for fixing him. That's his job.

If thre is something worth saving in the marriage, he as to realize it and act accordingly. If he does, you can work with him... if not... too bad

Be brave. Have a good lawyer. Be fair, but strong and clear.

[SteveB]

I'm not going to give any advice here, plenty of others have done that. I just want to say that you are most definitely not on your own. I really feel for you and hope with all my heart that the terrible experience you are going through will improve in one way or another very soon. I know the pain of being lied to and betrayed by a loved one, offering help and support but being refused, getting caught up in the dirty business of checking up on them, and then having to decide whether to stay or go. I am facing a similar decision to you and I know how hard it is to say goodbye to someone you love, however badly they have treated you. I sincerely wish you all the luck in the world and my thoughts are with you.

[deremarc]

Well, he is gone from home at least for now. He came home from his business trip and went out and got drunk with the guys. He left the next morning and we haven't talked at all since.

I just had a counselling phone call...the initial one...and I thought I was prepared...after all, I had told all of you guys about it...but it was difficult...very difficult...

I stumbled and stuttered, couldn't decide where to start....

And then she said she was bi friendly and asked if he engaged in phone sex too and crossdressing etc...and I was like, what? no...I dont' think so...

I just didn't know what to say...I felt very exposed even in a phone call...

Just thought I'd post an update...

No wonder he doesn't want to discuss his issues...discussing it out loud is 10x worse than telling you guys...

Dere

[sam08537]

I know it's difficult, but don't be discouraged. Your therapist is going to ask you all sorts of questions that make you wonder what kind of freak she thinks you are BUT she's trying to lay the foundation for honest meaningful communication between the two of you. My best friend and I were in therapy at the same time (with different therapists) and we had the funniest conversations that went "Oh well Barbara told me that I need to...." and she'd say "Really I just told Judy about blahblahblah and she said I should do this". If it's the right therapist for you, you will eventually wonder how you survived without her. I once asked my therapist what other women knew that I didn't, How do other women seem to have it all together and some days I'm not sure how I muddle through the day. Her answer to me? They all have or have had a good therapist.

[canuckotter]

Yeah, it's not easy discussing stuff with a therapist, even a good one, until you get to know them. But if it makes you feel better, there's probably nothing you could tell her that would shock her. :) Heck, there's probably nothing you could tell me that would shock me. (Seriously. People who know how vanilla my personal life is sometimes try. It's funny.) So don't worry about that... As for the rest... Well, it's not easy trusting someone, especially in your situation. If you have the opportunity to talk to her in person, you'll probably find it easier -- it's hard to put someone at their ease over the phone.

Good luck!

[twosides]

My best friend and I were in therapy at the same time (with different therapists) and we had the funniest conversations that went "Oh well Barbara told me that I need to...." and she'd say "Really I just told Judy about blahblahblah and she said I should do this". If it's the right therapist for you, you will eventually wonder how you survived without her.

The last part is very true. Therapy can be the best thing you have ever done for yourself. So much can be revealed to you and by you to the other people in the room. There is a lot to be learned.

Because raw, real, truth is hopefully being shared in that room, what is said there should stay there. It's a trust thing. That room needs to be a safe place, and if you casually talk about this and that and whatever, I think it dilutes the power of what can be accomplished. You should be able to talk to your friends about the issues in your life, but you're paying good money to talk to a professional. Pay attention to what they're saying, not your friends, when it comes to the shrink stuff.

Oh, and think for yourself. Don't just parrot what the therapist is saying. Apply thought and reason to what you're hearing and discovering about yourself. Ask yourself if that particular point has validity. Then adjust your thought process. Then on to the next revelation or proclamation. This takes time. Allow the process to happen. Invest in your health. And enjoy the growth. That's what you'll wonder about. How you got along without growth for so long.

add. - Dere - Just saw that you said you were on the phone for the counseling session. I include that in the description of "the room".

[Just_Gem]

Dere :grouphug:

Getting started is the hardest part, and as was said, building that trust between you and your therapist is a process. Think of it like building a house. The first thing you have to do is prepare the site before you even start building. The phone session was a beginning - finding the site you want to build on. Don't try to pour it all out at once - take each session, be it on the phone or face-to-face, as it comes and go with what feels right to address that day. Therapy is a process not an event, and it will take as long as it takes. The more honest you can be with yourself and her the more you will get from it and the easier it will be in the end.

She will be asking a lot of questions, that at times may sound bizarre or invasive. She needs to find out as much information as possible in order to know what direction the 2 of you need to go to best help you. I know it feels as though you are exposed right now, and that is perfectly normal. In a way you are. You are beginning the process of "stripping" away the secrets and baring, maybe for the 1st time, all the emotional garbage you have been carrying with you from this issue and any others you may have that will certainly come out as well. You are beginning to build that new house, so to speak, and need to clear out that old site for a new and better house for the future.

(Can you tell I like to use allegories :bigrin: )

Keep us posted and good luck with your therapy.

:grouphug:

Gem

[mistymockingbird]

Dere-

I'd just like to echo something someone else said. Don't be afraid to tell your therapist something even if its a little uncomfortable. The good ones have heard it all. My best friend is a therapist. The stuff he can talk about like its no big deal is quite simply amazing. I thought I had been exposed to a lot of things (no sheltered soul here) but in comparison to him, I got nothin'. He'll bring up the craziest stuff in random conversation. What would be shocking or odd or uncomfortable to most people is common day stuff to him. Its because I know he's heard so much that makes him easy for me to talk to about things I would NEVER tell anyone else. So, I know its hard, although for me being on the phone would make things easier because there's no face to face issues, but just let go and go with it. If this is the right therapist for you, the good things you'll gain from letting go of and dealing with some of your issues will far outweigh the discomfort of sharing them.

[deremarc]

Well, he is gone and hasn't called since Monday. I am going nuts, wondering what he and his computer are up to...

LOL

But, if you've learned anything about my personality..NOT knowing is awful...but I am trying to repeat to myself...I can not control him or what he does...I can't make him be faithful...or honest...or talk....

I can only control me....

Long 4 days

[Avocado]

Sounds to me like this is a cheating issue more than anything else. Put it this way: how would you feel if he was looking for women? And saying it's fair because you can look for other men? Not very happy I imagine.

[darkeyes]

Since the first time I read any of your posts hun the whole relationship u have has left me seriously disturbed. As it has so many others. Normally I write in half jokey babyish way no matter how serious a situation. Even speak that way. The crap you are going through is no joke and unless you act quickly I fear for your sanity This isnt a joke and isnt a matter where baby talk is called for.

Short and sharp. I think, given the information you have provided you have no alternative but to scoot out the door. He wont change, not unless he gets the shock of his life, and maybe not even then. You have the information and evidence and still he plays games with your mind. I have no doubt you love him. But I am not sure about the depth of his feeling for you. Maybe he loves you. Maybe deep in his past, his upbringing there are things which make him act the way he does. In fact I am sure there must be. However that does not excuse the sheer cruel manner in which he treats you, for make no mistake cruel it is. For whatever reason, he seems a self centred egotist who wants everything his own way without the world becoming aware. Many bisexuals have such feeliings to a greater or lesser degree. Thats why they are closetted. But the vast majority do not behave to a person they claim to love as does he.

I am not and never have been a saint. The likelihood of canonisation is not on the vaticans agenda and will never be. At times I too have hurt and acted without consideration and even cruelly to people I love. We all have and no doubt will again. But to do as he has done, to promise, to repromise and do again and again hence causing you so much grief and stress? Few decent human beings could live with having committed such deceipt and cruelty.

An alcoholic or drug addict can never begin his/her rehabilitation without first admitting the problem. Then and only then there is hope. The same goes for this man, if indeed man he is. Maybe, just maybe, though given what you have said to us I have serious doubts, you have a chance of reclaiming him from the night of denial and viscious cruelty. You love him and therefore you must see in him a goodness that none of us can. If its there to continually offer him understanding and forgivenes will not work in his case. You have to be strong and clear out and show him you will take no more of his shite! If he genuinely loves you, if he cares enough he will make every effort to become once again a real part of your life. That means admitting everything, grovelling and begging forgiveness, but most of all it means him meaning what he says, and you not returning to his life fully until you are satisfied that he means what he says and making it clear that any return to such behaviour means its the end for good.

You have to be hard here. No pussyfooting. No weakening to smooth talking. If none of it works bugger off and however sad and lonely you may feel, stay buggered off!

[deremarc]

Thanks for the posts.

You know when I posted this I thought people would think I was not being supportive of him and how hard the coming out process is.

I think that is part of what held me there no matter what...I could understand his pain and confusion...and that coming out takes a long time to do...

It has surprised me how overwhelming the "get out" response is...

When I begin missing him and my resolve wavers, I log in and read and re-read your responses to bolster myself up and remind myself that this is not a proper way for anyone to treat anyone else...

I do think that until he is honest with himself nothing will change for us...and he would continue to use me as his scapegoat...

Notice I still hold out some hope, i waver between using the present and the past tense...

But, I had another quick therapy session last night...the therapist I consulted with called me last night from her home...because she was worried about how I was (a free consult...believe it or not)...

It went much easier this time...just first saying the words...and knowing in my head that any sane person would say get out...made me feel weak and stupid....

But, I will meet her again...he still hasnt called and I am not calling him until I can discuss this without wanting to go back....trying to decide my next step...