Taboo or common?

[Polar Bear]

Two people consenting to sex is a beautiful thing regardless of sex or gender. Several have professed to having sexual relations with family members. Incestual relationships are taboo in most societies, yet common in others. But what about age? Society draws the line at various ages for consent. Were these ages scientifically studied and arbitrarily chosen or were they driven by church "moral code"? Do you feel stigmatized by societal norms? Would some of this behavior be considered pedophilic when looked at by outsiders? Laws aside, did any of you feel victimized or traumatized? I'm trying to decide whether to put an anthropological research study together to answer some of these questions. I'm especially interested in the historical aspect. When and why did it go from common or accepted to taboo? But for now, these are my personal queries.

[KDaddy23]

Both taboo and a lot more common than polite society will admit to. Age of consent laws are based on our moral code and abolishing the more ancient thing of grown men taking very young females for brides which is still common for some cultures in other countries but they, too, have been putting a stop to that practice and more so when a female child bride has no choice or say in such arrangements. This is such a touchy subject but I maintain that a lot of guys - in particular - got introduced to dick by a male family member; brother, cousin and, yeah, even some dads were in on it. We assume trauma is a given and it's always an abusive situation... but I also know it isn't always traumatic or abusive despite what the law and other authorities say. Digging into the history behind this is... time consuming and I know when I went digging, a lot of references were either "missing" or glossed over in favor of more moral norms. We "allow" that boys will be boys while frowning on boys being boys. Pedophilia, such as it's understood, is considered to be a mental illness and, perhaps, a separate entity from the standard taboo that says, for guys, two brothers have no business having sex with each other and dads shouldn't do anything with their sons and are considered to be wrong even when a son takes advantage of a drunken father.

This is some messy shit...

[Biryder]

Interesting subject. I would like to read more.

[Curious me]

Personally, I think cousins doing it is completely fine and can leave people without excessive baggage but it depends on the family. But NO closer in family tree than that.

[cornholejoe]

done it with a few male cousins

[Bottomhubby]

I was introduced to gay sex at the age of by an older neighbor married couple.
She liked watching him have sex with other men. Over one spring of me doing thier' yard work they seduced me and I became his boytoy with her blessing for five years till I left for college.
I do not believe it harmed me mentally.

No I have a question on the other subject, would an aunt or uncle be committing incest if they were to have sex with a non-blood related niece or nephew?

[Biryder]

Hello bottom,

I had an uncle (not blood) that taught me a lot at a very young age. I had also actually been taught by an older male cousin before that. I never felt abused in anyway. Honestly I welcomed their advances. I also had sex with a female cousin when I was 12. She was 14. I am not sure about the incest question. I would think non-blood relative would not be incest. But definitely would be considered molestation.

[CockHummer]

To state that incestuous relationships have been common in "others", as if there were some sort of a balance to it, is a real stretch. Incest has been taboo in almost all cultures throughout history. There was a curious and decidedly unusual stretch of time in ancient Egypt when it was the norm to marry siblings of noble birth. Cleopatra's parents are believed to have been brother and sister, but aside from that and times when incestuous couplings occurred because there was no one else around with whom to procreate, it has been decidedly unacceptable just about anywhere between people closer than cousins, and in general you'd be talking about second or third cousins, where the relationship might not even be recognized, before you get to where it has been considered normal behavior for people related genetically to have sex together. Many people date, screw, and/or marry cousins of greater distance than that without having a clue they are even related, and of course, taken back far enough, we are all related. It is plainly a question of how close the relationship is, and there are both physical and psychological reasons to argue cogently that sex between siblings or a parent and a child is just wrong. To consider it appropriate for a father to have sex with a child of either gender is absurd on several levels.

On the other hand, there is plainly such a natural distaste for incest that there have been situations that were almost comical, if they had not been so terrible in their effect. For much of Korean history, the concern regarding incest was so extreme and rampant, that anyone who had the same surname was considered "family", and it was illegal to marry someone who shared the same family name, even if they had no recognized true family relationship whatsoever. The most common name, by far, is Kim, and if two people with the surname Kim (just as a sorry example, because of how common it is) were to fall in love, it was illegal for them to marry or have sex together. While they were far from the only people affected, it was particularly problematic for them, because they make up, I believe, more than 10% of the population! It actually took large scale, widespread protests throughout the country to finally put that law to rest, and it finally happened because it was such a rampant experience in their culture. Of course, that in no way meant they were finally giving in to legalizing incest.

For one thing, and this adds a second consideration to the question of erotic taboos, it is bizarre to consider it normal between any two people of different generations with significant age difference, because the older of the two is clearly taking advantage of the younger, who is overpowered in the relationship by ordinary issues tied to age, size, and power and how they influence the capacity for decision making. While it happens and some people who experience it end up feeling okay with it, it is far more ordinary for them to be greatly troubled by it, as in when, for example, as has been such a great part of discussion in recent decades, a clergyman of a particular faith makes a habit of sharing sexual activity with youth in his parish. Of course, there are families where things work out timewise so that an uncle and his niece or nephew, for example, are roughly the same age--sometimes, the uncle (or perhaps the aunt) is even the younger party, and that would be a different thing, but it is hardly a major component of human existence. Sex between two people of different generations must be the outcome of personal reasoned decision on the part of both (or potentially all) involved parties, and that cannot happen when one is a minor and the other an adult.

While it is hard to know how the fact that a behavior is good for us would result in it becoming so natural and appearing practically "instinctual", as far as incest goes, the closer two people are genetically, the more likely they carry some otherwise relatively rare genetic defect associated with disease. If they are able to procreate together at least, gender-wise, then the more likely they are to produce offspring with congenital defects, because it is far, far more likely than in general, that the parents would share some shared genetic defect that might not be apparent in a person who had only one copy, but in the children of two parents that each had one copy of the defect, the children would have one chance in four of getting a copy from both parents and ending up with some terrible condition that no one might have seen for ages or even knew ran in either family. If it is a dominant genetic condition, it is far worse. Each child then would have a fifty percent chance of getting the bad gene from one parent and having the condition. They'd also have a 25% chance of getting the bad gene from both parents, and that could even potentially be deadly and would certainly be devastating. For that powerful reason alone, taboos against incest by closely related people arguably serve an important purpose. Putting it in terms of Darwinian natural selection, if people were born with a distaste for sex with close relations, they would be less prone to die of genetically derived conditions and survival would be enhanced. That may be why there is such a generalized natural aversion to incest. It does appear, for whatever the reason may be, that it is most natural for people to not find their siblings or their parents sexually attractive and to most often be turned off by the idea of having sex with them or even considering their sexuality.

For these and possibly other considerations, there are good reasons for taboos against sex between people of close lineage who are of the opposite sex and between people of widely disparate age. The one area that came up first in your proposal that cannot be explained in similar ways is that of taboos tied to gender, and that is the one place where taboos have been, at times, the harshest, and arguably always the most insane. It hurts no one whosoever, provided that neither party involved has promised relational fidelity to another individual, for two people of the same gender to fuck their brains out, as long as they are close enough in age and desire that the decision to do so is truly a shared decision, and in my mind, that applies to two children or teens who want to experiment with sexual play with others of about the same age, as well as it does to two adults.

[travelingman5000]

Interesting subject. I would like to read more.

Just scroll down or do a search. The topic has been discussed at great length in many previous posts.

[Rvdude05]

An older brother, 19 was the start, a younger sister took my cherry, mother was last. No dad at home, if there was, I would have. No regrets...

[KDaddy23]

Still a very messy topic. The taboo is clear; there's a reason why it exists as well as why there are laws against it. I maintain that none of those things has ever stopped it from happening; I also maintain that a lot of people experience sex for the first time in this way and that a lot of guys get their first experience with dick via the taboo. I maintain that no matter how morally repugnant breaking the taboo is, when we talk about being male and bisexual and how we became this way, yeah - the taboo is just as responsible as any other way is. We can, perhaps, rightfully, insist that it should never happen this way but, again, it never changes the fact that it happens. It has always happened. Chances are good it is happening right now and as you read this. And it will happen going forward. It just is what it's always been and now it's a matter of what one thinks about it. The legalities are clear; the morality of it is equally clear... and it still doesn't mean a whole lot since those things have never stopped or prevented it and we do assume that if/when it happens, oh, my, the horror of it all! How abusive and traumatic it is! And sometimes it is... and not even close. This topic makes people uneasy and that's being nice about it.

[Biryder]

Still a very messy topic. The taboo is clear; there's a reason why it exists as well as why there are laws against it. I maintain that none of those things has ever stopped it from happening; I also maintain that a lot of people experience sex for the first time in this way and that a lot of guys get their first experience with dick via the taboo. I maintain that no matter how morally repugnant breaking the taboo is, when we talk about being male and bisexual and how we became this way, yeah - the taboo is just as responsible as any other way is. We can, perhaps, rightfully, insist that it should never happen this way but, again, it never changes the fact that it happens. It has always happened. Chances are good it is happening right now and as you read this. And it will happen going forward. It just is what it's always been and now it's a matter of what one thinks about it. The legalities are clear; the morality of it is equally clear... and it still doesn't mean a whole lot since those things have never stopped or prevented it and we do assume that if/when it happens, oh, my, the horror of it all! How abusive and traumatic it is! And sometimes it is... and not even close. This topic makes people uneasy and that's being nice about it.

I liked your response. It has and will continue to happen. I think just because I enjoyed my experiences does not mean others have. I have known a few guys that had these experiences as a boy and as me enjoyed them. I also have known a couple of women that experienced contact with older males and family. Honestly only one disliked the experience. After her explanation I can understand why.

So I would say it boils down to the individual. Some kids are much more sexual at a young age. Same as we are as adults.

[Iplayonline]

All of my experiences of a sexual natured started with my cousin(female) at a young age, and then progressed to other family members( mother aunt sisters and few make cousins too) and even much older woman(40's) and men (50's) non family all before I was out my teens or early 20's and none of them knew about any of the others until I was in my 20's and I told my sister and cousin who I still play with time from time and I'm 58 now. I really would like to get with my aunt again and she's all by yourself these days and just turned 71. But I'm married and she most likely would wan to start up since she knows my wife very well.

[Polar Bear]

I see all these replies and I can't help but wonder...is the stigma of the social taboo more harmful than the consensual act itself?

[Biryder]

I see all these replies and I can't help but wonder...is the stigma of the social taboo more harmful than the consensual act itself?

Very good point. The laws do not stop people that want to do physical harm. It does though stop those that only want to give pleasure to others. Those like me that enjoyed it. I do not hang around playgrounds looking for a victim. Although the thought of teaching someone is intriguing. Just nothing I would act upon.

I read an article about a man that had a relationship with his young neighbor. He was a family man and the young neighbor was a boy of 14 when it started. At 17 the boy’s mother found out and alerted authorities. The boy refused to testify. The man was sent to prison. While in prison sadly the young man killed him self. They attempted to charge the man with murder. The saving grace was the letter the young man left. He blamed his mother. He went on to say that he was the one that wanted the relationship.

The man was lucky enough to continue to be supported by his wife and family. Being able to overcome all he faced. His biggest regret was the loss of his friend.

[KDaddy23]

I see all these replies and I can't help but wonder...is the stigma of the social taboo more harmful than the consensual act itself?

There are times when I think the taboo is more harmful and more so when a lot of people don't know why it exists and our habit of believing that once something is determined to be wrong, it is always wrong and there are - and cannot be - any exceptions. Even when someone is open-minded - and knowledgeable - enough to see that there are exceptions, they do a "Yeah, but..." kind of thing and refer back to the rule. Many more cannot differentiate between "shouldn't be done" and "can't be done" and we see a lot of this dealing with bisexuality. Yet, there are a lot of things we can do where we say, "No harm, no foul" and this happens to be one of them. We know that siblings experiment with sex with each other and we know that there are families who keep it in the family because they're of a mind that if sex is to be learned, it's better to learn it at home than to learn it "out in the street." And history is full of examples where royalty engaged in incest as a matter of course in order to retain their power.

We allow that boys will be boys and that includes us experimenting with sex with each other... and we know that such things isn't limited to boys outside of a family structure and while parents jump through hoops to prevent any, ah, internal experimentation, many find it's an effort in futility and, well, as long as (a) no one is complaining, (b) they don't get caught in the act or, (c) leave it alone at some point, "no harm, no foul" gets invoked. I would agree that having sex this way without any form of "consent" - and I don't necessarily mean the legal kind - can be a bad thing for those subjected to it and even in this, we assume that once the trauma has been introduced, it's impossible to overcome it and when we find out that some folks get past it, we again tend to brush it off and revert back to the rules against it.

And I'll point out again that despite the rules and associated punishments, it still happens. I say again that a lot of guys discovered their bisexuality and even their homosexuality in this way. There are reasons for incest to not take place and, again, there's no disputing them. The taboo is scary and backed up by all manner of punishments including having one's soul condemned to the deepest, darkest hell imaginable as well as being killed for it and I can well imagine how knowing about it can be more harmful than "helpful" and more so when one of the first things we're taught is to love our siblings and other family members along with insisting that one should never have sex with someone they don't love or otherwise care about. Given this, if family members are really feeling the love for each other, um, what do you think can happen? I'll end this with something my sister said to me while we were making love and I was having some concerns about it: "As long as you don't get me pregnant, I don't see what the problem is." Or having my brother as a lover and for no other reason that it was just boys being boys and we found that we got along better with each other because we were screwing each other silly; otherwise, I can't honestly say that we loved each other all that much.

And I'm not the only one who has had this kind of experience and everything was okay. I'm not really biased in this direction even if it sounds that way; it's just that I learned some shit about sex that a lot of people are told to ignore and see as being highly immoral: You can have sex with anyone if that's what both people want to do and being related can make having sex easier because, at the very least, you know them and trust them not to do any harm or it's better the devil you know than the one you don't. It just is what it has always been.