BISEXUALITY AND SEXUAL POLITICS

[tenni]

I am one of the bisexuals who sees “closetness” as a mono sexual construct for gay and heterosexuals. I believe that it is no one else business which gender that I have sex/relationship with or relationships with unless they are a person involved with sex with me. The issue of shame is pushed on bisexuals if they do not adhere to a monosexual relationships with one person most often opposite gender.

A number of bisexuals are in a mono sexual relationship with( heterosexual or gay) who insists on monogamy. (less so for gays than heterosexuals but I could be wrong) These bisexuals fear rejection from their mono sexual partner and the larger mono sexual society. A number of bisexuals on this site are open and excited to discuss sex with same gender and body parts but not politically active.

Annika in another thread discussed bisexuality as “nobody has asked the right questions or you don’t yet know them well enough to share information that personal, then no, that is not closeted.”

These positions seems under developed and in my view holds bisexuals back from expanding sexual political activity that monosexuals and in particular homosexual monosexuals have developed. When I look at acceptance of sexual groups and many bi people's opinion (mine too) that it is no one else's business who I have sex with.

How can bisexuals improve our positions in the mono sexual society as far as acceptance and tolerance?

[KDaddy23]

How can bisexuals improve that? The six-million dollar question that has yet to be definitively answered. I've read that educating or better forms of education for folks can go a long way toward this and maybe it would... but how do you change the minds of all those people who steadfastly don't believe in anything other than that which they already believe? It is as you say: We've always held true and strongly to the position that it's no one else's business who we have sex with or why we're having sex; it's always been a very private thing and to the point where people who are having sex with each other can't or won't talk about sex they're having. And it's always been a thing where if you talk about the sex you're having, it's considered bad form and impolite; it "stands to reason" that if you're not having sex in the preferred way - and you're letting everyone who'd listen know that - well, you're just some kind of pervert and more of one because of TMI.

That bisexuals fear rejection is just par for the course; those of us who are old enough (or have been paying enough attention) remember what homosexuals when through once their homosexuality was revealed and to say it was ugly doesn't even begin to cover it. Bisexuals saw this - probably see the ongoing angst toward homosexuality and combined with some folks believing that bisexuality and homosexuality are the same things - and decided that being bisexual is best kept under one's hat. Having said that, it's not so much that "Nobody has asked the right questions or you don't know them well enough to share information that personal..." because unless there's a reason that cannot be avoided, the questions can be on someone's mind to ask... and if they're wrong, that usually doesn't go well. As for knowing someone well enough, you can know someone as well as anyone could know someone else and one still might not share that information out of fear of rejection, loss, humiliation, etc..

Because a lot of people just do not respond well to discovering or hearing such information; there's the whole issue with monogamy but the bigger problem and the one I think has to be resolved requires what we believe and why we believe it to be changed, altered, or dismissed out of hand because the source of our beliefs is outdated. I've found that you can get people to intelligently understand what bisexuality is about but this information severely clashes against that which they believe and causing what I call a "Yeah, but..." moment. They agree that what you've told them makes sense and is reasonable... but it's the belief that interacting with people in this fashion is never, ever to be thought about, let alone done and, as such, discarding and disregarding the obvious fact and proof that people are bisexual.

If you can't effect a wholesale change in belief, acceptance and tolerance will be hard to gain, just as it was for homosexuals and even with the successes homosexuals have had over all the time that, at least, I've been alive and aware of these things, there are still many people who just do not believe. Homosexuals and bisexuals are really no different from anyone else and you can provide examples of this lack of difference... and generate another "Yeah, but..." moment that goes along the lines of, "That's not how it's supposed to be" and, often, pointing to religious dogma to support this position...

And a position that is clearly incorrect - duh. What we believe trumps the facts of the matter and even I've learned that I can explain my bisexuality in exacting terms, ways, whatever, and it won't change someone's mind because it goes against that which they believe and they're not gonna believe because they don't have to if they don't want to. How does one combat this? Damned if I know.

[yeahso]

In general people do not care whom you prefer to have sex with. Being open about it means you invite the problem. It is narcissistic to go around and tell people you are bisexual. Granted, if someone finds out about your sexual preference, bullying you is not acceptable. Prancing around, announcing it, and expecting people to accept you is selfish. Seems more like you are shopping for a response, what if the response is negative? Not everyone will like you. Forcing them to like or accept you is evil.


Homosexual rights seems more like a totalitarian movement rather than one seeking acceptance. Look at the continued goose-stepping down the road of forcing people to do things using government that is happening. Why the fuck are bisexuals lumped into the whole movement anyway?


Simply, don't ask, don't tell, live your life.


The best way to keep government out of your bedroom is to not invite government into your bedroom in the first place.

[playful808]

Great post tenni, and an interesting question:

> How can bisexuals improve our positions in the mono sexual society as far as acceptance and tolerance?

You present this as an intolerance by mono-sexuals against bisexuals. I respectfully disagree.
In mainstream culture, bi women are often accepted and more than tolerated, even desired. They are “cute” and not threatening.

Bi men are the real issue, not bi women.
One big reason is that we have the reputation for dishonesty, cheating and unsafe sex.
In my opinion, we largely earned that reputation, and deserve it. That’s on us.
As a group, we need more integrity, not a more subtle definition of honesty.

If we really want to change our reputation, we need to publicly acknowledge and change those behaviors, and not in secret.
Obviously, not all of us can do so, or want to. So, I don’t see our reputation changing in my lifetime.


I emphatically agree that it ain’t nobody’s business what you do.
We all have an absolute right to privacy and even to secrecy.
But not to trust, or acceptance.


My 2 cents.

[tenni]

Playful and KDaddy
You make some very good points.

We need to hear from more bi women on the point of acceptance from a heterosexual, male partner but generally I'd agree that male bisexuals seem stuck in a chicken and egg scenario. I have read studies that reported women cheat as often or near as often than men. They are just quieter and don't get caught as often..lol

I understand that playful has an open and honest relationship with a bisexual woman? She seems very tolerant and supportive. Every biguy has not had such fortune. I'm not sure about KD's wife's position on his bisexuality?

Many guys report that they entered a cross gender relationship and then find themselves developing same sex attraction but their wives are into monogamy big time and only cross gender scenarios. The bisexual may have known about their attraction to other men and their potential wives disdain for m2m before marrying. Some report that they kept quiet hoping the same sex attraction will go away. That group of men seems to be the ones prone to hide their same gender attraction but then there is a mono sexual society pressuring bisexuals to see themselves as gay. The male bisexual has to cope with mono sexual society willing to accept female bisexuals but not male bisexuals.

I agree that as a group, we need more integrity but that may be difficult to develop without support not generally available to bisexual men interested in both genders as partners. Is the chicken (disdain for bisexuals, dishonesty, cheating) first or is it the egg (self doubt about your sexuality) that is the core issue?

There is another chicken and egg senario. Then there is the value of wanting to promote your sexual history as no one else's business unless they are becoming involved sexually. This seems to conflict with trying to make conditions for bisexual rights if no one want to be public about their sexuality?

[tenni]

Yeaso I don't know why bisexuals are included with GL. I suspect that is was because we are not heterosexual. We seem to be a loosely united group and would never have known that there are others who are attracted to both CISmale and CISfemale.

[playful808]

So, which came first? Probably the rooster.

I think the core issue for many guys comes back to honesty. It’s a skill.
Some men lie to themselves and the world for half a life-time, and hide for the rest.
Most couples can’t talk honestly about sex, can’t even ask for what they really want.
Many people do not have one friend they truly confide in about their sex life. Not one.

Yes, I am truly fortunate to be partnered with this lovely, remarkable woman.
When we met, I was openly bi and openly non-monogamous.
This sends many women running, but those who remain, do so for the right reasons.
Sometimes, fortune is the residue of design.


LGBT* = several distinct sexual minorities that have surprisingly little to do with one other.

[Jazminedress]

In general people do not care whom you prefer to have sex with. Being open about it means you invite the problem. It is narcissistic to go around and tell people you are bisexual. Granted, if someone finds out about your sexual preference, bullying you is not acceptable. Prancing around, announcing it, and expecting people to accept you is selfish. Seems more like you are shopping for a response, what if the response is negative? Not everyone will like you. Forcing them to like or accept you is evil.


Homosexual rights seems more like a totalitarian movement rather than one seeking acceptance. Look at the continued goose-stepping down the road of forcing people to do things using government that is happening. Why the fuck are bisexuals lumped into the whole movement anyway?


Simply, don't ask, don't tell, live your life.


The best way to keep government out of your bedroom is to not invite government into your bedroom in the first place.


I agree, one thing that bothers me in the Gay community, is the constant need to out others, where is the respect for their privacy if they dont wish to be out ?

If someone doesnt like me and who I am, that is fine, I am completely okay with that, as long as they are respectful we dont have any issues.

Bi women are accepted in society, with one cavaet................they need to be somewhat cute. Two larger women making out in a bar, different result than two cuties. Women will egg each other on and laugh about their friend making out with another girl, and of course the guys love to watch

When two guys are messing around its a different reaction. People treat it different, a bi guy is really gay and doesnt know it, a bi girl is just having fun

[Long Duck Dong]

How do we gain more acceptance and tolerance ? stop making enemies of people, as much... its that fucking simple... and stop trying to make so many rules or guidelines that would make things * better *

The key question is not so much to do with acceptance and tolerance of bisexual people but more how do we limit or stop other people having opinions that we do not agree with.....or having the ability to make decisions that can indirectly affect us..... isn't it ? .....

Does it really matter if the term closeted is used or is the problem that other people refer to us as closeted and we need a cool sounding term for bisexuals that really means the same thing....

Does bisexual need to be restricted to attraction to only cisgender people ( natural born male or female )... because we are now up to over 100 gender definitions / pronouns / sexualities....and the guy whose dick you were playing with, may actually be XXYX and not cisgender but it would not show up without a DNA test.....

Does it really matter if its LGBTQIA or is the problem that some people want to stand alone in the corner at parties while other people dance... but they do not want to stand alone, they want other people to stand in the corner with them and not dance.....and when that does not happen, they want to take over the party..... because if they start their own party, not as many people are going to turn up

what does that say about people ? most of them are looking for the pleasure, the fun, the enjoyment.... its the ones standing in the corner at parties, that are not having fun, and want to change things....

[bibliss]

For me, the term "closet" refers mostly to the way we hide from ourselves, from our own insights of who we are. And that's what makes coming out so courageous.

[KDaddy23]

@Tenni, my wife has zero issues with me being bisexual and I've been fortunate to have been with quite a few women who had no problems with it. Many of the straight people I know don't care who's bisexual - many are NIMBY about it as long as you don't hit on them; otherwise, what and who you do is your business and have fun with it. All of my adult life, however, I've gotten more static from homosexuals about being bisexual and from my position, this angst is still ongoing although, admittedly, some homosexuals are okay with bisexuals. I've had a few bisexual friends attend LGBTQ+ events and have been treated unkindly because they're bisexual and I've read too many things by LGBTQ+ supporters who have openly questioned the need to be associated with bisexuals because our "problems" aren't their problems or, probably more realistically, the things they've been fighting about, for, and over are things that, historically (I'd say), bisexuals have never had any problems with - hence the source of that alleged "straight privilege" some folks are barking about.

What they don't seem to understand, then or now, is that for the majority of us, being straight is our default behavior; it's just that, as I said previously, a lot of people hear "bisexual" and think "homosexual," totally ignoring or disregarding our inherent straightness. At the core of this issue and the real "enemy" of bisexuality isn't politics or anything like that:

It's belief and a lot of the belief about sexuality is flawed and outdated since, duh, there are people who aren't straight. You have a bad experience with someone and you develop the mindset that if that person was all fucked up, anyone like that person and in any way is fucked up... because that's what you believe and when it comes to belief, it is very damned hard to overcome someone's systems of belief... and even when you present them with cold hard facts or other proofs. If someone strongly believes in something - or against something - you can debate things with them logically, intelligently, and as eloquent as you can manage and, again, hear that, "Yeah, but..." response and the "but" isn't what they know for a fact...

It's what they believe and why they do. That and to foment greater change in favor of bisexuality as being real/legitimate, you'd have to get disbelievers to believe... and they have the right not to believe anything they don't want to. Sure, it took sociopolitical action by homosexuals to "have the right" to be treated just like everyone else when, in fact, they've always had it... except too many people didn't, wouldn't, and still don't believe that homosexuals should be treated like the real people they are. And now, bisexuals are being subjected to the same prejudice and methods of disbelief as gay folks were. You can, again, sit them down and explain it until you're blue in the face and some just might agree that what you're telling them makes sense - and then they'll reject it because it goes against what they believe.

Humans are just insane like this and I just do not know how to fight belief, just like no one has figured out how to short circuit or change our "If you're not one of us, you're against us" behavior that has existed all along. What I know is that while bisexuals could gain a "political victory" in this sexuality battle, it's still not going to change what people believe and as evidenced by the many people I hear saying that, sure, gays now have the right to marry... but they still don't believe that they should be allowed to marry and because they don't believe that anyone should be anything but straight.

We believe that monogamy is the only way to be and regardless to sexuality and, true enough, there are probably more women who believe in monogamy than those who don't even though there has been ongoing evidence that monogamy is flawed and has more holes in it than a screen. Even as a bisexual, you can eloquently argue in favor of modifying what monogamy means and, once more, you can get almost any woman to agree that what you're telling them does, in fact, make sense and could go a long way to improving relationships... but since it goes against everything they believe - or have been made to believe in some cases like, "I know this couple who did that and they wound up getting a divorce so doing this won't be a good thing."

Oddly enough, the bisexuals who get their partner to go along with "breaking a few rules" do so because their partner does know that monogamy is about as fucked up as anything can get - and they know it because they, too, have other needs and desires that monogamy won't allow them to partake of. In this, we - humans - are pretty stupid when it comes to this because there is more than enough proof out there that says monogamy just does not work for everyone; yet and still, many people continue to believe that it works the way it's supposed to work until or if it becomes possible to suspend their belief at the least or get them to unequivocally understand that what they believe isn't the reality of things.

Good luck with that one and as many men and women here on this site has probably learned or it's the reason why they won't ask for permission because they know that it won't be given, not so much because it's "wrong" as it goes against what the other person believes in.

How do fight against belief?

[Long Duck Dong]

belief goes both ways and that is creating a lot of issues......

straight privilege is the idea that straight people have had freedom of choice but only if we ignore the fact things like forced marriage, marriage slavery, inability to get divorced, that unfortunately still happen in todays society.... and even the right to marry a opposite sex partner does not mean that a person is going to get to marry their opposite sex partner for various reasons....
Straight privilege to me, is part of the us versus them debate......

yes bisexuals had the right to marry opposite sex partners but the same problem existed with that they could not always marry the opposite sex partner they wanted to marry.....and they could not marry the same sex partner either..... but its been argued that bisexuals have straight privilege, so they have not suffered in the same way as gays or lesbians, and yes I would agree with that but bisexuals still suffered and so did straight people.....

monogamy is another one.... we can hold the stance that its flawed and a massive failure but thats a personal belief and the flaw for us, is when we expect other people to believe that our relationships and marriages will be so much better if they step out of their comfort zone for our sexual pleasure.....but something that has come up in NZ where I live, is that the marriage rate is declining, fewer people are getting married and as one person said to me, its coming from the fact that people want to have their cake and eat it but they also do not want to diet, they want to enjoy other peoples cakes as well.... and when that decision does not work, its the other persons fault.......

for a very long time, I was monogamous natured because I did not want the drama of an open relationship and the headaches involved, that stemmed from relationships where sex was used as a weapon and one such relationship was full of my partner did not want sex, but she had 13 affairs........when my last partner died 4 years ago, I was happy to remain single for the rest of my life, that changed when I met a older male that was not looking for a relationship or a partner but a close knit group of people to have sex and make love with... and I found a solution that worked for me....
I am comfortable with him and two female lovers that also are not looking for relationships or partners AKA rulebooks
what we have found, is other people are insisting that its a poly group... but we do not view each other as partners, we do not view things as a closed relationship with others, we view it simply as a shared situation, we do not live together, we have our own lives, homes, businesses, investments and assets.... and thats also because under NZ law, living together in the nature of a relationship or marriage, means after 3 years, the matrimonial properties act kicks in and it could become a legal nightmare

But while we say that monogamy is flawed / fucked up and stupid, it also comes down to each persons ability to handle a non monogamous relationship / marriage....and how the other person views that relationship / marriage....and while non bisexual people tend to get rubbished for monogamy, overall, non bisexuals actually tend to have the highest rate of non monogamy if we use % of people as a guideline but based on gender and sexuality, its a toss up between males that have sex with males ( covering straight, gay, pan, bi and MSM aka men that have sex with men ) and males that have sex with females as to whom has the most sex partners per person.... and even in this site, monogamous bisexuals have been told they are wrong for not going outside of their marriage, so it shows that some of us not only want to have our cake and eat it, we want others to end their *diet* because it does not fit with what we believe is right for everybody......

so for me, its not so much a case of how do we fight against belief but when do we realise that what we believe is right, is not a one size fits all solution, not everybody is our enemy and its actually not us vs them but us and them and that group over there and the group by the bar and the group on the dance floor and the group by the door and...........

btw, I love chocolate cake, others love plain cake, some like fruit cake etc.....

[papasmurph]

I have been dabbling in the gay community for the last couple years - I have shared some of my story with other people, but by and large, I didn't make public my "coming out" story until two weeks ago - I had an opportunity to speak at a forum that was designed to talk with younger generation LGBTQ people in order for them to have an understanding of the older generation's challenges in coming to terms with their sexuality or their gender. So, I knew this would be a challenge - but, I was detemined to tell teh story of a married bisexual man in this day and age - and what it was like to grow up not fitting anywhere - I wasn't straight - I wasn't gay -but, I was something different - and it didn't take long to figure out that most people - gay or straight - just didn't get how someone could really be bi. So, I was well received - I had several young people come up to me afterward and thank me - I think, in a small way, by speaking publicly, I peeled back the misconceptions and the prejudices about bisexual males. I know this was small league here - but I can't help but think that is how we change people's perceptions - I know that most bi guys are not going to ever reveal their sexuality publicly - most can't say a word to anyone.
I've come a long way - but I have paid a price, too. No regrets.

[playful808]

Papa! Good to see you!!

Thank you for standing up for us.