Florida Massacre at a GLBT night club

[tenni]

Presently, the report is 53 dead and over 50 in the hospital over the murder of people in a GLBT club near Orlando Florida, USA. It can not be ignored that the target was non heterosexuals. The murderer is reported to be a 29 year old man.

I'm sure more information will come.

Your thoughts?

[a2smith09]

This is a horrendous act of terrorism. This nightclub and it's patrons were deliberately targeted by a member of ISIS just because of their lifestyle. This young man is a radicalized Islamic son of Afghan refugees, he is a known wolf, investigated by the FBI years ago and we are letting thousands more of them into our countries every month. This is going to turn out well. We are going to see increasing amounts of violence like this in the years to come. Islamism is not compatible with modern western values and all too many of us are willfully blind to this.

I would also point out the similarities between this attack and the one in Paris last year. This attack targeted gays because of their lifestyle, in Paris Jews were targeted because of their religion. Other attacks in Los Angeles, Kenya, Brussels, Egypt, Israel, Iraq, Syria, Turkey, etc. all targeted their victims based on their religious or lifestyle choices. Unfortunately this will not be the last one.

My sympathies to the victims, their families, and their friends.

[tenni]

You may be correct a2smith but information has not been given out yet by the FBI..just the media speculating. The murderer's family has not been informed yet and that is why the police are only giving out his age. I don't think that the bodies have been removed yet let alone identified.

This is being investigated as a hate crime against LGBT as well as a domestic terrorist attack.

Lets not place one hatred (Islamophobia) on top of this until it is stated as such by the police. You seem to be blaming Muslims instead of hate crime against LGBT communities.

[pole_smoker]

Our hearts go out to the victims, their families, and friends in Orlando.

Yes a radicalized Muslim named Omar Mateen did this, and yes it was an attack on the LGBT community.

[a2smith09]

Willfully blind Tenni, willfully blind. You may be right and I may have jumped the gun and be wrong, time will tell. I just see a worldwide pattern deliberately targeting persons with incompatible values, of which LGBT is a big one. Its not all muslims either just a significant minority willing to use violence in their belief system. You can add Bangladesh where LGBT are deliberately targeted and slaughtered just because of their lifestyle. By no means is this only a domestic issue.

[a2smith09]

Way too early breaking news, apparently the gay pride parade in LA was also targeted. Coincidence? coordinated targeted attacks?, who knows? I'm sure it will come in time. Fortunately the perp was caught and arrested before he could kill anyone.

[tenni]

I'm not willfully blind. I'm aware of the possibility a2smith. Our Canadian media called it domestic terrorism at this point. Again, unofficially a US citizen may have done this. That makes it domestic. It has just been reported that ISSIS has posted on its website that they were responsible.

Jumping to conclusions before the police have had time to look carefully seems prejudice...as in pre judging before the police and FBI have determined the facts. Trying to get the news before it is validated seems to be a sickness of US media..got to be #1.

In the past two years a man of Arabic background killed an honour guard on Parliament Hill and invaded the Parliament building. He was killed in the halls of Parliament. There was no proof of direct link to ISSIS but he was radicalized by his own research.

It is all speculation at this point except that 50 people were murdered in a gay club last night. Incidents in Bangladesh or other countries of violence towards women and GLBT shows that this is not a safe world as much as some in the west think. GLBT bashing is one level down from what happened last night.

Personally, I think that we can almost expect mass murder in the USA by gun violence. Does anyone recall murder of more than say 5 GLBT people at one incident? or even more than one at a time in the past ten years?

[pole_smoker]

I'm not willfully blind. I'm aware of the possibility a2smith. Our Canadian media called it domestic terrorism at this point. Again, unofficially a US citizen may have done this. That makes it domestic. It has just been reported that ISSIS has posted on its website that they were responsible.

Jumping to conclusions before the police have had time to look carefully seems prejudice...as in pre judging before the police and FBI have determined the facts. Trying to get the news before it is validated seems to be a sickness of US media..got to be #1.

In the past two years a man of Arabic background killed an honour guard on Parliament Hill and invaded the Parliament building. He was killed in the halls of Parliament. There was no proof of direct link to ISSIS but he was radicalized by his own research.

It is all speculation at this point except that 50 people were murdered in a gay club last night. Incidents in Bangladesh or other countries of violence towards women and GLBT shows that this is not a safe world as much as some in the west think. GLBT bashing is one level down from what happened last night.

Personally, I think that we can almost expect mass murder in the USA by gun violence. Does anyone recall murder of more than say 5 GLBT people at one incident? or even more than one at a time in the past ten years?


Tenni, this guy was affiliated with ISIS. But you're an Islamic appologist, and keep in mind that most Mulsims in the world even so called "moderate" ones want bisexual, gay/lesbian people dead or in prison.

CAIRO (Reuters) - Islamic State’s Amaq news agency said on Sunday that the Islamist militant group was responsible for the shooting that killed at least 50 people in a massacre at a gay nightclub in Orlando, Florida.

“The armed attack that targeted a gay night club in the city of Orlando in the American state of Florida which left over 100 people dead or injured was carried out by an Islamic State fighter,” Amaq said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/islamic-state-claims-responsibility-for-gay-nightclub-shooting-in-orlando_us_575dabcbe4b0ced23ca85ad5?

[pole_smoker]

http://nypost.com/2016/06/12/suspected-gunman-in-florida-gay-club-mass-shooting-idd/

The shooter who killed at least 50 people at a gay nightclub in Orlando has been identified as Omar Mateen, law enforcement sources told The Post.

Mateen was a U.S. citizen with no apparent criminal history, was born to Afghan parents in New York in 1986 and was living in Port St. Lucie, Fla., according to multiple media reports.

Mateen had committed himself to ISIS before carrying out the bloodiest mass murder in US history at a gay nightclub in Orlando on Sunday, federal officials said.

Mateen “made a pledge of allegiance to ISIS,” California Rep. Adam Schiff, the top Democrat on the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, told CNN.

[tenni]

That may all be true Pole..minus name calling. Have the police made these statements or are you going with a terrorists news system from Egypt? There was also an Iman present in front of cameras early today.

It has just been reported that the murderer is not just a US citizen but he was born in the USA. His father said that he hated seeing men kissing. Other pieces of information are being broadcast without the backing or validation of the FBI. ie he bought the guns less than two weeks ago but the FBI was aware of his behaviour since 2013. He was interviewed twice but not put on a terrorist watch list. All unproven or substantiated info.

[pole_smoker]

That may all be true Pole..minus name calling. Have the police made these statements or are you going with a terrorists news system from Egypt? There was also an Iman present in front of cameras early today.

It has just been reported that the murderer is not just a US citizen but he was born in the USA. His father said that he hated seeing men kissing. Other pieces of information are being broadcast without the backing or validation of the FBI. ie he bought the guns less than two weeks ago but the FBI was aware of his behaviour since 2013. He was interviewed twice but not put on a terrorist watch list. All unproven or substantiated info.

Quit making up excuses for Islam. This guy was associated with ISIS and a part of them.

I'm just going to leave this here. I found it on another site I lurk at.


Alright guys, here's the straight dope from an Iranian immigrant, who happens to consider himself a socialist and Agnostic - if you read the Quran in it's original Arabic, the words "kill" and "unbeliever" appear together very often. In fact, the entire thing reads like a warning of doom to believe, submit, and either punish, or revel in god's punishment of, the unbelievers, ad infinitum. Those who have never read it have no idea. They think it reads like the Bible or Torah. It doesn't. Every page is almost the same in what it says.

The problem is that in English translations of the Quran, "kill" is usually translated to something like "chastise" and "unbeliever" is usually translated to something like "sinners" (I have both versions, I'm not making this up).

This is all part of an Islamic doctrine called taqiya which essentially allows the muslim to lie about his faith (or whether he even holds such faith at all) either in order to protect him/herself, assimilate in whatever society he's in, etc.

The truth of the matter, and again, I am a socialist, agnostic, and ARDENT ANTI-RACIST since the age of 13...the truth of the matter is that Islam is a backwards religion (in fact a political ideology masquerading as a religion) that has no place in civil society. Now, I'm not saying that any harm should come to Muslims. It's not their fault they were born into a Muslim family or society and were indoctrinated. What I'm saying is that the seeds of why these things happen are embedded in the religion and Muslims need to come to terms with this and be open and honest about it, and look for ways to mitigate these negative aspects of their "faith". IF they are willing. Many are not.

There are three kinds of Muslims:

1. Open jihadis and radicals.
2. Crypto-jihadis that utilize taqiya to live their day to day lives

and

3. Useful idiots. These are the ones who actually believe "Islam is a religion of peace", which, if you read the Quran in the original Arabic, you will see without a shadow of a doubt that it is not.

In fact, Islam exists because Muhammad was trying to gain a mandate among his tribe to lead them into war/gain political power, and also to gain the ability to have sex with whomever he pleased by decree of "god" (his second wife, Ayisha, was 8 when they married and 9 when he "consummated" their marriage). He was a power-hungry pervert who invented a religion to promote his lust for power and sex. Yes, this sounds fucked, and you might think I'm deluded, but I know what I'm talking about. I'm an an Iranian ex-pat (and happily so - Islam infected my country and plunged it into the middle ages, and I'm proud to have escaped and now live in a Federal Constitutional Republic).

I'm sorry if any of this is politically incorrect, but it is factually correct. I am also sorry that this puts me in the company of republicans, conservatives and racists. Again, this is coming from a far-left atheist radical, and an active anti-racist of nearly two decades.

Edit: Tehran was once referred to as the "Paris of the Middle East". We used to brag that we were the only middle-eastern country with mini skirts and women at the beach wearing bikinis. Then the Islamic Revolution of '79 took place. This should give you an idea of what Islam is really about.

[pole_smoker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDo8khXqUh8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEZPfj514Kk

[charles-smythe]

Presently, the report is 53 dead and over 50 in the hospital over the murder of people in a GLBT club near Orlando Florida, USA. It can not be ignored that the target was non heterosexuals. The murderer is reported to be a 29 year old man.

I'm sure more information will come.

Your thoughts? …an outrage of the worse sort…I pray for the victims…

[charles-smythe]

This is a horrendous act of terrorism. This nightclub and it's patrons were deliberately targeted by a member of ISIS just because of their lifestyle. This young man is a radicalized Islamic son of Afghan refugees, he is a known wolf, investigated by the FBI years ago and we are letting thousands more of them into our countries every month. This is going to turn out well. We are going to see increasing amounts of violence like this in the years to come. Islamism is not compatible with modern western values and all too many of us are willfully blind to this.

I would also point out the similarities between this attack and the one in Paris last year. This attack targeted gays because of their lifestyle, in Paris Jews were targeted because of their religion. Other attacks in Los Angeles, Kenya, Brussels, Egypt, Israel, Iraq, Syria, Turkey, etc. all targeted their victims based on their religious or lifestyle choices. Unfortunately this will not be the last one.

My sympathies to the victims, their families, and their friends. …another thing we have to think Obama for….

[tenni]

…another thing we have to think Obama for….


I don't understand how Obama is responsible for these 50 deaths? Expand of your point.

This seems to be a US born person who operated independent of others. I don't think that gays were sought out in Paris?

Questions may be asked about the process that the FBI interviews suspected terrorists imo but again I don't know democratic protocol.

[a2smith09]

I didn't really want to get back into this but it's called Jihad Tenni. I am constantly amazed how people subject to group think are taken by surprise by events that are predictably obvious. Take your blinders off, look up Jihad, it will help you connect the dots. It is not just US based, it is not about guns, and it is not just about gays. This was not a one off attack by a lone lunatic. It wasn't the first attack and it will not be the last. This is asymmetrical warfare straight out of the manual. Just like Belgium & Brussels, Canada will find out too that they cannot make a deal with the devil. Jihad will come to Canada one day. The Canadian LGBT and Jewish communities are in danger. You can keep your head in the sand and live in your own echo chamber as much as you want but Jihad could care less about what you think and want.

Ok I am done with this subject. I am tired of speaking to people that neither want to see nor hear.

[tenni]

I know what jihad means and what it has been polluted as by radicals. The Canadian experience proved that there was no planned link between what happened in Paris. In one Canadian post today it pointed out that there was something like 10 mass murders in Canada in the past twenty years while in the US there have been ten mass murders since Monday. The reality may not be as extreme but it shows the different cultures.

I agree that our past government was more prone to attracting Islamist extreme radicals. I will not be shocked when it happens in Canada. I blieve that it will. Canada had extremist radicals back in the 60's from Quebec. yep home grown terrorists. Why is it that some people from the US not accept that they have home grown terrorists? However, I am not so bigoted to judge before the facts are in. There is no proof yet to make your statement valid. You are acting like a bigot. There is more evidence that this is an attack by a lone radical who hated GLBT.

All of these judgements are made less than 24 hours after the killings. Aren't we smart.

I still do not see the connection to your president either.

[pepperjack]

I didn't really want to get back into this but it's called Jihad Tenni. I am constantly amazed how people subject to group think are taken by surprise by events that are predictably obvious. Take your blinders off, look up Jihad, it will help you connect the dots. It is not just US based, it is not about guns, and it is not just about gays. This was not a one off attack by a lone lunatic. It wasn't the first attack and it will not be the last. This is asymmetrical warfare straight out of the manual. Just like Belgium & Brussels, Canada will find out too that they cannot make a deal with the devil. Jihad will come to Canada one day. The Canadian LGBT and Jewish communities are in danger. You can keep your head in the sand and live in your own echo chamber as much as you want but Jihad could care less about what you think and want.

Ok I am done with this subject. I am tired of speaking to people that neither want to see nor hear.

I think you're very much on point with your comments here a2.

The Muslim Brotherhood boasted years ago it would destroy America by " infiltration and attacking from within . " Exactly what we're seeing here.

I just watched a live press conference with his ex-wife where she and her fiance kept emphasizing ' mental illness. " Also emphasized was the fact that his driving aspiration was to become a cop ! Mind-boggling.

The guy had an obvious track record . Easy for ISIS to sway & recruit the mentally unbalanced; in fact, it's a deliberate strategy. The organization was quick to claim credit because of his professed allegiance in a 911 call just prior to the attack although his direct connection is still vague. Doesn't matter. The outcome is what they want.

How many more wake-up calls does the world need ?

This is where Trump, despite his unpopularity, is dead on. His get-tough attitude with these evil, deranged bastards has been a relentless emphasis of his platform.

[charles-smythe]

I don't understand how Obama is responsible for these 50 deaths? Expand of your point.

This seems to be a US born person who operated independent of others. I don't think that gays were sought out in Paris?

Questions may be asked about the process that the FBI interviews suspected terrorists imo but again I don't know democratic protocol. …He knows the bastards are here…but has taken no effort to protect the American people from them…

[pole_smoker]

I'm not a Trump supporter but I would not be surprised if he wins the election and even has LGBT people vote for him as Killary wants to bring in even more Muslim extremists that nothing is known about, just like 0bama did.

[pole_smoker]

Found on another site:


Islam is a very ugly and dangerous religion. The whole "religion of peace" thing is utter crap. If you open the Quran and read it in it's original Arabic, the word "kill" will appear on nearly every page. I'm not making this up, I know exactly what I'm talking about.

When the Quran is translated into English, terms like "kill the infidel" are translated into "[God will] punish the sinful". This is all part of an Islamic doctrine which says that it is admissible to lie about your religion if it grants you safety (or stealth) in a country hostile to your religion. Therefore, all English language Qurans found in your home town will not mention the "kill" part, but all the ones written in Arabic do, and the Arabic readers of Arabic Qurans will read it too. And they'll take it as God's word, and may carry it out so they can have their 72 virgins when the get to "paradise". Which also brings me to another important point - look at the religion's founder, Muhammad. He was basically just a warlord who invented his own religion mostly to satisfy his sexual desires by force (he was "god's messenger, after all). His second wife, Aisha, was NINE YEARS OLD when they married and consummated their marriage (i.e. he fucked a prepubescent child). This is the man muslims look towards as a shining example of the ideal muslim human being. It's also the reason why men in their 50's are often married to teenage daughters of someone in their village or city all over the middle east.

There are exactly three kinds of muslims: 1 - the open jihadist // 2 - the closet jihadist (blends into society until his opportunity arises to do what he wants to do) // 3 - the useful idiot who actually buys the "religion of peace" nonsense because they don't actually read from the Quran in its original Arabic, or pick and choose the good stuff and ignore the bad stuff (the same way Christians do out of the Bible - it says "don't eat shrimp" and "don't blend textiles" on the same page it says "don't be gay", but I know most christians eat shrimp and wear polyester/cotton blend fabrics before, while and after they try to "save" their gay friend/family member by attempting to brainwash them into not being gay, which is not possible, because homosexuality is a natural and innate, inborn tendency among a certain % of any population, and it always has been for all of history. The third type is the type you find most commonly in western countries, but even they are not immune to being "flipped".

My family had to flee from Iran in the wake of the '79 Islamic Revolution. Tehran (Iran's capital) was once referred to as the "Paris of the Middle East". After the revolution, females who were once teachers, mayors, librarians, and government bureaucrats, who only months before could wear whatever they wanted (skirts, bikinis at the beach, etc) found themselves suddenly being forced by the religious enforcement police (known as Comitè) to wear hijabs and who would beat them in public if a strand of hair was showing through said hijabs. Now, I should state here that I do not condone monarchism, and the Shah (king) of Iran who ruled previous to the Islamic Republic government was an autocrat, but was certainly the MUCH lesser of two evils.

Just look at the middle east. Violence literally everywhere. Lack of civil infrastructure. Low industrial output (for instance, name a single vehicle manufactured in a mid-east country - there aren't any - the royal Saudi family can afford to buy the nicest luxury cars available, but not a single screw or bolt in the car is manufactured anywhere in a thousand mile radius). Now, granted, the United States played a large role in the stoking of this infernal violence. If you fuck with a bee's nest, the bees will get angry and start swarming, and you very well may get stung. We fucked with the bee's nest. It was politically advantageous for us to do so (in the eyes of the officials who carried it out), just like in Afghanistan when we funded the mujahideen to fight against the Soviets (who were not actually invading the country, but had come to assist the rightwise communist government that was trying to westernize and modernize the country at said rightwise government's request), but that came back to bite us in the ass in the form of Al-Qaeda and 9/11. We also continue to do it now to purposefully destabilize the region ("muddy the waters and the fish can't see") as a pretext to engage militarily and gain control of the vast oil wealth there, establish military bases (we have over a thousand all over the world, many in countries we were previously at war with, such as Japan and South Korea, and now in places like Iraq). Had we left them alone (Iraq and Afghanistan and perhaps all the way back to Mossadeq's government in Iran in the 50's), none of this would be happening (they would still stone women to death and hang people accused of homosexuality in public, but there would be no ISIS at the very least). So, we are in part to blame, and to be fair I must mention that.

But Islam is very certainly at its true core a violent religion. Its built in. It began with violence (Muhammad) and has been violent its entire history (refer to muslim occupation of the Iberian Peninsula for centuries).

Just look at the reaction to Charlie Hebdo depicting Muhammad in a satirical manner in one of their issues. That was enough to encourage a couple "Type I" and "Type II" muslims to murder/attempt to murder Hebdo's staff.

I am still, and always will be, an "SJW" as the fascist white nationalists like to refer to people who believe everyone deserves to be equal in the eyes of justice/the law. I will always believe in human rights, free speech, and the right to do as you please so long as you not infringe on the liberties of others.

But with my background having been born to refugee parents from a muslim theocratic country and my knowledge as an atheist about the ugly truth of ALL organized religions, I have to be honest about the truth of Islam. It is violent in its doctrines and encourages violence among its followers.

Check out MEMRI, which is an organization that operates a website that archives media from muslim countries in which their true doctrines are clearly spelled out. I know MEMRI is an Israeli propaganda operation, and I certainly am NO FRIEND to Israel. For the record, I sympathize with the Palestinians and deeply believe in a two-state solution and a cessation of hostilities between the two parties. But the videos you'll find on MEMRI are real, and the translations are accurate. Check it out, you'll have a field day.

I have no doubt that the act in the Florida nightclub was performed by a homophobe muslim in service to his god and religion.

I am not an Islamophobe, I am a realist. My commitment to atheism prevents me from viewing religion with rose-tinted glasses. It is what it is.

Police arrested a Muslim carrying weapons including rifles and explosives to the L.A. Pride fest.
IN ELEVEN MUSLIM COUNTRIES, STATE EXECUTION OF HOMOSEXUAL/BISEXUAL MEN IS STILL GOVERNMENT POLICY.
A SINGLE MUSLIM JUST MURDERED MORE GAY AND BISEXUAL MEN THAN DOMESTIC GAY AND BI-BASHING HAS HARMED IN THE LAST 50 YEARS.

[tenni]

Well, the latest information on my news source summarizes:
a/ his father said that his behaviour had nothing to do with religion. He became very angry when he saw two men kissing. He hated Gays.
b/ his ex wife stated that he was mentally ill and physically abused her until her family rescued her from him.
c/ radical organizations like ISSIS do promote hatred towards GLBT and say in videos that they should be killed.
There is no evidence that he had any direct contact with ISSIS. This is similar to the mentally ill man who killed a Canadian Honour Guard on Parliament Hill. They spout radical statements but there is no direct link (so far) with ISSIS. There is evidence of mental illness in the killers.

[pole_smoker]

Well, the latest information on my news source summarizes:
a/ his father said that his behaviour had nothing to do with religion. He became very angry when he saw two men kissing. He hated Gays.
b/ his ex wife stated that he was mentally ill and physically abused her until her family rescued her from him.
c/ radical organizations like ISSIS do promote hatred towards GLBT and say in videos that they should be killed.
There is no evidence that he had any direct contact with ISSIS. This is similar to the mentally ill man who killed a Canadian Honour Guard on Parliament Hill. They spout radical statements but there is no direct link (so far) with ISSIS. There is evidence of mental illness in the killers.

Again, you're making up excuses for Islam, and pretending that this is not a hate crime or jihad. :rolleyes: He was a part of ISIS, and even so called "moderate" and "liberal" muslims hate bisexual and gay men, and lesbian women. They're actually OK with Trans people as in many Fundamentalist Islamic countries trans people have the entire sex change operation paid for, and get a new ID which shows them as being the opposite sex.

[yessirtiresflat]

Tenni's got the Canadian version of Obama at the head of his government now. He should be polishing his equivocating, confused, lefty sophistry for the tide of Allah-inspired atrocities headed his way.

[yessirtiresflat]

Well, if the shooter's father said it had nothing to do with religion, that oughta be good enough for anybody. Don't even need to wait for Imams Kerry and Obama to tell us what to make & not make it. Nothing to see here. Taqiyya? What taqiyya? Move along.

[tenni]

Christian Radical?
Christian Pastor Celebrates Nightclub Massacre: “There’s 50 Less Pedophiles in This World”Pastor Steven Anderson, whose hate knows no bounds, celebrated the deaths (https://youtu.be/EUOBFjRGvPI) of 50 people at a gay nightclub in Orlando in a 4-minute mini-sermon that cited the Bible as justification for why they needed to die. (And if it didn’t happen via a shooter, it should have happened by way of government execution.)
It’s the most disturbing, hateful response to a mass shooting you’ll ever hear, and it was provoked by Anderson’s complete hatred of LGBT people.


http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2016/06/12/christian-pastor-celebrates-nightclub-massacre-theres-50-less-pedophiles-in-this-world/

[yessirtiresflat]

Ah-ha, just how many more gays and pedophiles did other Christian killers like this Orlando guy murder around the world this year? Oh, wait..

[darkeyes]

[B]Found on another site:



Police arrested a Muslim carrying weapons including rifles and explosives to the L.A. Pride fest.
IN ELEVEN MUSLIM COUNTRIES, STATE EXECUTION OF HOMOSEXUAL/BISEXUAL MEN IS STILL GOVERNMENT POLICY.
A SINGLE MUSLIM JUST MURDERED MORE GAY AND BISEXUAL MEN THAN DOMESTIC GAY AND BI-BASHING HAS HARMED IN THE LAST 50 YEARS.
I see.. so, on average less than one gay or bi person per year has been harmed before Orlando... even allowing for the fact u r talking only of the US, once again u talk through ur rancid bigoted arse...

[darkeyes]

Again, you're making up excuses for Islam, and pretending that this is not a hate crime or jihad. :rolleyes: He was a part of ISIS, and even so called "moderate" and "liberal" muslims hate bisexual and gay men, and lesbian women. They're actually OK with Trans people as in many Fundamentalist Islamic countries trans people have the entire sex change operation paid for, and get a new ID which shows them as being the opposite sex.This was certainly a hate crime.. but whether it was Jihad is questionable to say the least.. ur bigotry allows u to think of no reason why a man who hates gays would butcher them other than because of a religion u h8. Simply because a man was Islamic and claims an allegiance to Isil or whatever does not make what u claim true. Wait and see dimwit...

..it is arguable also to say the least that moderate and so called liberal muslims hate gay and bi people.. it is not and has never been my general experience. Some do, just as many of the most militantly anti-gay and bi people in any and all religions and political organisations and none are themselves gay or bi who do great harm to their sexual kin.

[tenni]

It looks more similar to what happened on Parliament hill in Canada and possibly Britain's case as far as home grown extremism. His 911 phone calls called for support of differing extremist groups (Hezbola and ISSIS hate each other) This is the wording of a mentally ill guy. The two killers in Canada did not know each other nor have any direct links to the groups that they claim to have been do this for. It becomes clearer that this is more a anti GLBT killings. There are signs that he was a repressed gay man whose family was rigid about homosexuality. More to come.

[pole_smoker]

It looks more similar to what happened on Parliament hill in Canada and possibly Britain's case as far as home grown extremism. His 911 phone calls called for support of differing extremist groups (Hezbola and ISSIS hate each other) This is the wording of a mentally ill guy. The two killers in Canada did not know each other nor have any direct links to the groups that they claim to have been do this for. It becomes clearer that this is more a anti GLBT killings. There are signs that he was a repressed gay man whose family was rigid about homosexuality. More to come.

Tenni, or Jim Riley, what's your point? You are a repressed gay man. :rolleyes: Call it what it was, Islamic Terrorism. He was affiliated with ISIS. You're just as bad as Killary and 0bama who can't even admit that the killings in Orlando are Islamic terrorism and that the shooter was affilated with ISIS. :rolleyes:


Mateen had committed himself to ISIS before carrying out the bloodiest mass murder in US history at a gay nightclub in Orlando on Sunday, federal officials said.

Mateen “made a pledge of allegiance to ISIS,” California Rep. Adam Schiff, the top Democrat on the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, told CNN.

[pole_smoker]

Christian Radical?


LMAO someone doesn't know jack shit about world religions or history. :rolleyes:
a Muslim did this. Inspired by a homophobic Muslim leader. You're just going to have to deal with that.
Only one religion keeps up the massacres, and it's not Christians.


This is the third time Muslims (a small but growing bunch) in the U.S. have attempted the mass murder of lesbian, gay, and bisexual people. This was the first successful one. There will be more to come because they are never held accountable.

Islam strangely enough is OK with Trans people as in in Iran and other ass backwards Muslim countries they actually pay for surgery for trans people, and give them a new ID and argue that it's OK to be trans because an Iman or the Koran says so; but that if you're bisexual or gay and a man you deserve death; but it's fine to be Muslim and a pederast because Muhammad was one. :rolleyes:


There's a big difference now when you look at which religion is actually murdering in mass numbers. Don't pretend otherwise.



It's easier to label all Christians and all white men.
If this were a Catholic or a right-wing Christian, the comments would be denouncing ALL of them, while bloggers and commentators online would know no boundaries with their labeling and accusations.

When it comes to Muslims and Islam, they must really fear for their lives; they don't dare say anything negative about them for fear an extremist will target them.

[pole_smoker]

I see.. so, on average less than one gay or bi person per year has been harmed before Orlando... even allowing for the fact u r talking only of the US, once again u talk through ur rancid bigoted arse...

What I posted is not bigotry.

But coming from a total hypocrite like you that's funny. As you believe the racist myth that black men are hung and are the race that has the largest penises. :rolleyes: But what would a lesbian who was at one time so repressed she called herself "bisexual" know about penises or black men?

If you really actually foolishly believe that most Muslims are for the rights of lesbian, bisexual, and gay people go to Islamic countries or walk through a refugee camp, or Muslim ghetto in London or any large city with your "wife" and kiss her in public, and see how people react. :rolleyes:

Do you think anybody will be brave enough to stop the talk of killing LGB people at mosques ? This incident is just the beginning as we enter the new world of Islamic influence. Political Correctness and the fear of being labeled "Islamophobic" or other such horse shit are what allow peope affiliated with ISIS to get away with attacks.

Too high a percentage of Muslims are homophobic. Even the mainstream ones. That's why every place they're the majority it becomes a hell for gays. They're just a small but growing group in the U.S., and in Europe so....watch what happens.

There are enough Muslims, for instance, in the UK now that 52 percent just admitted they want to see homosexuality/bisexuality made illegal.

[babloobla]

Terrible tragedy about Orlandoe.. But all these reactionary rationalizations of why it happened and who-is-to-blame are insane.

All these Religions, Jew Christian Muslim and others, are dick worshippers.. The Circumcision...Phallic Symbolism of Jesus being HUNG on a cross.. Patriarchy..GOD as Male.. Dick Rules... at least for the last 6000 years..

[pole_smoker]

This was certainly a hate crime.. but whether it was Jihad is questionable to say the least.blah blah blah I don't live in reality at all and know fuck all about world religions or politics...
You're just going to have to face the facts and start living in reality for once. It was Jihad and an attack by a terrorist against LGB/T people.


Too high a percentage of Muslims are homophobic/biphobic. Even the mainstream, and so called "moderate" and "Liberal" ones. That's why every place they're the majority it becomes a hell for gay and bisexual people. Even in the UK 52% of Muslims polled said they want being bisexual or gay outlawed. Hopefully the UK and other European countries will wise up and leave the EU which has caused more problems than good, and kick out the so called Muslim "refugees" who suck the tit of benefits/welfare, who are cowards who don't fight Isis in their own home countries. The Christians from the countries where ISIS is are actually being massacred and persecuted and can stay.

[pole_smoker]

Terrible tragedy about Orlandoe.. But all these reactionary rationalizations of why it happened and who-is-to-blame are insane.

All these Religions, Jew Christian Muslim and others, are dick worshippers.. The Circumcision...Phallic Symbolism of Jesus being HUNG on a cross.. Patriarchy..GOD as Male.. Dick Rules... at least for the last 6000 years..

You must have smoked a lot of meth or crack before you posted that. The fact you mentioned the Patriarchy is laughable or maybe you took way too many silly womyn's studies/gender/queer theory classes? :rolleyes:

Circumcision is nothing but involuntary male and female genital mutilation.

Islam is NOT a religion of peace, and it's goal is to take over the world. Even the so called "moderate" and "liberal" muslims admit this.

[babloobla]

Pole_smoker... Would you vote to put a vagina possessing person in the oval office of the White house? as the Commander in Chief-- POTUS?

[pole_smoker]

Pole_smoker... Would you vote to put a vagina possessing person in the oval office of the White house? as the Commander in Chief-- POTUS?
Yes I would; but not a lying psychopath of a womyn like Kilary KKKlinton who is the reason why ISIS exists and under her and the 0bama administrations the FBI under their watch let the ISIS affiliated people in Orlando and San Bernardino go for fear of "Islamophobia". :rolleyes:

[pole_smoker]

Mentally and emotionally, Muslims are trapped in the 16h century. Their moral values largely do not include the precepts instilled by Buddhism and the teachings of Jesus, or Ganesha--and that's why so many are not to be trusted.

It's also why the U.S. should never have gotten involved in warfare with these people. "Forgive and forget" are not part of their belief system. They violently thirst for revenge instead.

Let's also not forget how a lot of Muslims are pederasts to girls and boys.

A Hindu friend of mine said how "Muslims invade a country, and breed like rabbits", and this is also true.

The Saudis donated over $100M to the KKKlinton Foundation, so the KKKLinton foundation must support Muslims and denounce "Islamophobic" U.S. citizens.

So when are the LGBT media or mainstream media going to write about the homophobic/biphobic Iman in a mosque in Orlando that called for the death of anyone that's not heterosexual?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vev-OzHQy94

[darkeyes]

It is not so that because one disapproves of homosexuality it is necessary to hate the homosexual.. many Moslems understand this as indeed do many Christians and those of other beliefs and of none. I loathe fascism and nazism, yet I do not hate the practitioners or believers in those credos as people.. I hate what they stand for and what they may do. I loathe and h8 idiocy and bigotry yet do not h8 the idiot or the bigot. Many things and beliefs do I hate.. sad for u that Islam is not such a belief, nor for that matter is Christianity or indeed Judaism, and hating people I find so much more difficult whatever their beliefs.

[pole_smoker]

It is not so that because one disapproves of homosexuality it is necessary to hate the homosexual.. many Moslems understand this as indeed do many Christians and those of other beliefs and of none. I loathe fascism and nazism, yet I do not hate the practitioners or believers in those credos as people.. I hate what they stand for and what they may do. I loathe and h8 idiocy and bigotry yet do not h8 the idiot or the bigot. Many things and beliefs do I hate.. sad for u that Islam is not such a belief, nor for that matter is Christianity or indeed Judaism, and hating people I find so much more difficult whatever their beliefs.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight sure you don't hate people. :rolleyes: Who are you trying to fool? :rolleyes:


Islam is actually a cult based on a Pagan moon god has and always will have violence at its core and world domination is their goal. Even the so called "moderate" and "liberal" muslims admit that they want to force everyone in the world to one day become Muslim.

[pole_smoker]

Muslim shooters in Armarillo, TX it truly is a "religion of peace". :rolleyes:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/amarillo-police-respond-armed-person-inside-walmart-39848930

[mrcumsalot]

Turns out this guy (Omar Mateen) was seen regularly at the night club where he went ballistic, killing and injuring so many wonderful people who were guilty of nothing except loving one another and having some good clean fun. He did not shoot all these people merely because he saw two men kissing as he claims. He shot them all out of jealousy! He was a closet fag who lacked the courage to accept what he was, a gay man! His cowardice is what led him to hurt and kill innocent people, not his hatred of gays..just plain cowardice and jealousy. He was jealous because he was unable to show the affection he felt toward a man, or for men. The sad thing here is that all he ad to do is say hello and he'd have been accepted in to a group of incredibly wonderful and fun people. Now a lot of those people are ded or scarred forever. How sad!!!

[darkeyes]

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight sure you don't hate people. :rolleyes: Who are you trying to fool? :rolleyes:


Islam is actually a cult based on a Pagan moon god has and always will have violence at its core and world domination is their goal. Even the so called "moderate" and "liberal" muslims admit that they want to force everyone in the world to one day become Muslim.

Obviously not fooling u, hey,Dimwit? Soz 2 disappoint.. may not like u very much, but don't hateya.. my parents brought me up not 2 hate peeps and while I wont say I have never h8ed ne 1, cos I'm not perfect and am no angel, throughout my life it can safely be said I have hated fewer peeps than u have digits on one hand... and I got over them in time.. h8 passed.. it passed even the very worst of them..

Many believers in Islam, like many believers in Christ, in common with adherents of many other religions around the world, have always tried to convert the planet to their religion.. it is a common thread in many creeds, including Islam and Christianity, to have all of humanity believe what they believe. Both sets of believers have tried to convert by reason, and convert by often the most brutal force. Which have been responsible for the greatest misery and tragedy on this world is arguable, but followers of and believers in either religion cannot escape their share of responsibility for the most appalling of those tragedies and miseries carried out in the name of Prophet or Christ. Religions are about power and control of the masses which is why people brought them, God and Gods into being... it is why there has been so much conflict in the name of God and religion, and why there will be more in decades and probably centuries to come. They feed off people like u.... the dim... the more enlightened in each religion of which there are thankfully many in all religions and in none see other ways and strive to achieve them in peace and love and if they do not loathe u as a human being, as they should not, they most assuredly loathe the things u and those who think speak and believe as u do.

[pepperjack]

Not only was he a regular there but it was over a three year period and there's a distance of 120 miles he had to travel. What does that tell you ? Also, from the accounts I've read, while he was there, he would get extremely drunk and go on loud, belligerent rants, often about how strict his father was.

I can remember decades ago when what we now commonly refer to as homophobia was known as " homosexual panic. " It was almost always accompanied by self-loathing and that hatred was inevitably directed outward.

It appears that Pride Month this year was on a collision course with Ramadan, Islam's holiest month. The extremists always exploit this and the intelligence communities are well aware attacks are much more likely at this time.

At the beginning of Ramadan, the ISIS internet propaganda machine encouraged attacks of any type, no matter how small, by sympathizers, under their banner. It can be logically assumed that this ambience was a " perfect storm, " so to speak, for this to happen. It could have been the tipping point for another stereotypical " walking time bomb " in our society.

One thing is certain ! ISIS is jubilant, touting it as a victory against the infidel and this attack will more than likely be used as an example, a recruiting tool for other mentally unstable, impressionable individuals.

[pepperjack]

Yes I would; but not a lying psychopath of a womyn like Kilary KKKlinton who is the reason why ISIS exists and under her and the 0bama administrations the FBI under their watch let the ISIS affiliated people in Orlando and San Bernardino go for fear of "Islamophobia". :rolleyes:

Got to admit; Pole has been coming across in this thread as not only somewhat civil, but also intelligent, informed & articulate. And I agree with much of what he has to say.

Donald Trump is Hillary's worst nightmare ! Billions of his own money; can't be influenced or bought like her with Saudi Arabian money.

I watched a recent interview with a former head of the CIA who said Obama has just been " fiddling around with national security " for the past 7 & i/2 years !

[void()]

I have a few points to express regarding the shooting in Orlando.

1. I do not think it was an act of terrorism.

This was done by only one person. They were not part of any religious,
idealogical, political group. No motivation was given by the killer,
only very confusing false statements regarding their affiliations.

2. Such an incident is a tragedy & merits being treated as such, not as
a mass media profiting event.

The media always has profit from the adversities of others. The people
killed have families. Why profit from the misery of those families'
losses? Talk about sick, there you go.

Excuse me.

[darkeyes]

Pep, darlin'.. ur idea and mine of what is civil appears to be very different.. also intelligent and articulate.. as to being informed I havent seen very much of that save for his own prejudice derived from hysterical Trumpism and the right wing media.. and I don't consider that being informed.

I expected that u would agree with much of his diatribes and I'm sorry for that but we approach things from a different place u and I, as well as different continents. I for one cannot find much he has to say compassionate, humanitarian or tolerant far less understanding, but that is how much of the world is nowadays.. the Islamist terror shite we face the west brought upon itself because of a century of oppressing Islamic peoples by Britain, the US, France and Israel among others, but in the case of Orlando I think Void has the right of it whatever the gunman is supposed to have said to the authorities before dying and I have no reason to doubt that claim.

This was certainly an act of terror but not Isis inspired..an act of terror in common with many committed throughout the US every year by Christians and people of other religions.. by atheists and agnostics too.. The Pulse was, in my opinion as bestI can tell, the act of a desperate man divorced from the world and full of self loathing at what he was. Societies the world over and religions of various hues, including Islam, bear responsibility for that too...The Isis claims if anything were probably an act of self justification not much else.

I will say no more for now.. I choose to wait till the fog clears and more information is forthcoming and a more accurate picture can be viewed of the man and his motives as I think we all should, and I hope learn all lessons we can.. something may I say human beings seem to be so bad at.

[pole_smoker]

What's with all the confused and highly delusional LGBT people who are now denying that the Orlando shooter is a terrorist and affiliated with ISIS, and who are completely denying that this attack was jihad? The Orlando shooter was a terrorist, was muslim, was affiliated with ISIS, and the attack at Pulse dance club was jihad.

Keep right on chugging that kool aid for the gullible Westerners. Go ahead, have another sip, then point out a few "moderate" or "liberal" Muslims/countries.

"Moderate" Muslims. "Extremist" Muslims. Sad ignorant Westerners.

This is clearly Jihad, as was the Santa Monica foiled attempt, San Bernardino, Boston Marathon attack, and the shooter at Walmart in Texas.

But Obama will not declare this as anything but a tragedy, which it is , but he will NOT address that we are under siege.

That is not a real president.

Other religions and other religious leaders get called out all the time for biphobia/homophobia and hate speech all the time. But Islam somehow gets a pass and it's excused?

Christianity, Judaism, and all other religions except Islam have gone through many reformations and are fine for the 21st Century. Islam however is not.

Muslims have learned that Westerners will not punish them for their behaviour. On the contrary, the government, the media and even the President of the United States, Prime Minister of the UK, and Chancellor of Germany will excuse, coddle and deflect Muslim behaviour. Small wonder that Muslims are so contemptuous of the West and our values.


Thankfully Charles Martel kept the Muslims out of Europe in the Middle Ages or else we would all be Muslim and stuck in the 8th Century still, as most Muslims are. Be grateful daily that you were born in the Western world, and not in an Islamic country or to an Islamic parents if you're a lesbian, gay, or bisexual person, Jewish person, Hindu, Buddhist, practise Jainism, are Christian, or are a young boy, girl, or woman.

[tenni]

darkeyes
It is better to focus on the direct issues of the murdering GLBT people. It grows clearer to those who reason, that this was a suppressed gay man who was mentally ill when he massacred these people. Questions more directly connected was why he "friended" the owner of another GLBT club in Orlando less than a week before? What role did his second wife play and will she be charged as an accessory or ? Secondary issues are questioning how countries can prevent home grown mentally ill people from murdering under the guise of radical ideas.

[pole_smoker]

darkeyes
It is better to focus on the issue of murdering GLBT people. It grows clearer to those who reason, that this was a suppressed gay man who was mentally ill when he massacred these people. Questions more directly connected was why he "friended" the owner of another GLBT club in Orlando less than a week before? What role did his second wife play and will she be charged as an accessory or ?
Deflect, deflect, Deflect!!!

Ignore the actual reason which is Islam, and that anyone who lives in reality and follows the news or current evens knows was the real reason behind the massacre of bisexual and gay/lesbian people in Orlando.

[pepperjack]

Presently, the report is 53 dead and over 50 in the hospital over the murder of people in a GLBT club near Orlando Florida, USA. It can not be ignored that the target was non heterosexuals. The murderer is reported to be a 29 year old man.

I'm sure more information will come.

Your thoughts?

Tenni, how can you criticize American media coverage when you misrepresent the facts at the onset and are absolutely no better whatsoever ?

The official body count the morning after was 50 dead, another 53 injured. The number of dead was later modified to 49 victims plus the shooter but that still makes the number of 50 dead accurate.

Your thoughts ?

[tenni]

Tenni, how can you criticize American media coverage when you misrepresent the facts at the onset and are absolutely no better whatsoever ?

The official body count the morning after was 50 dead, another 53 injured. The number of dead was later modified to 49 victims plus the shooter but that still makes the number of 50 dead accurate.

Your thoughts ?

Those were the numbers at the point that I posted being reported later in the morning of the killings. The numbers went down to 50 and the next day or two 49. Those figures were reported before they removed the bodies. I also may have reversed the actual numbers...


I don't think that I made any reference to which country the new was from. Nor did I support why the killings were done on that morning.

[pepperjack]

Pep, darlin'.. ur idea and mine of what is civil appears to be very different.. also intelligent and articulate.. as to being informed I havent seen very much of that save for his own prejudice derived from hysterical Trumpism and the right wing media.. and I don't consider that being informed.

I expected that u would agree with much of his diatribes and I'm sorry for that but we approach things from a different place u and I, as well as different continents. I for one cannot find much he has to say compassionate, humanitarian or tolerant far less understanding, but that is how much of the world is nowadays.. the Islamist terror shite we face the west brought upon itself because of a century of oppressing Islamic peoples by Britain, the US, France and Israel among others, but in the case of Orlando I think Void has the right of it whatever the gunman is supposed to have said to the authorities before dying and I have no reason to doubt that claim.

This was certainly an act of terror but not Isis inspired..an act of terror in common with many committed throughout the US every year by Christians and people of other religions.. by atheists and agnostics too.. The Pulse was, in my opinion as bestI can tell, the act of a desperate man divorced from the world and full of self loathing at what he was. Societies the world over and religions of various hues, including Islam, bear responsibility for that too...The Isis claims if anything were probably an act of self justification not much else.

I will say no more for now.. I choose to wait till the fog clears and more information is forthcoming and a more accurate picture can be viewed of the man and his motives as I think we all should, and I hope learn all lessons we can.. something may I say human beings seem to be so bad at.

Dark, you should know by now of my fondness for you but yes, we don't see eye to eye here.

For starters, how is Pole's perceived prejudice towards Islam any different from your prejudice towards deity & religion ? And why do you appear to be coming to a sudden defense for a supposed religion that is suspect, has a history of barbarism ? You also appear to come across with the distorted mindset that the victim ( i.e. " the west brought upon itself") is responsible for the victimization. Sounds just like Sharia Law to me. I recently read an account of a 16 year old Muslim girl who was raped and then subsequently murdered by a brother in an " honor killing " because she had shamed the family. Huh? She was a victim to begin with and then victimized again, punished for being a victim, and then sacrificed in order for the family to save face ! Just one of many examples of why I agree with Pole on this.

If you feel that you're in a fog ....maybe it's that of denial ! Personally, I feel that I'm seeing very clearly.

[monaohio]

it should not matter what sex you are or who you enjoy sex with and being with this was a cold blooded murder that happened for no fucking reason and that the whole family of the one that did all the murder should be deported oiut of the united states for ever

[tenni]

it should not matter what sex you are or who you enjoy sex with and being with this was a cold blooded murder that happened for no fucking reason and that the whole family of the one that did all the murder should be deported oiut of the united states for ever

The murder was born in the USA. Why should a relative of a born in the US murderer be deported for something that they did not do?

Should the murderer's toddler who is also born in the USA (second generation native born) be deported for what his born in the US father did? Where will you send that baby boy second generation? No other country needs to accept him.

[void()]

What's with all the confused and highly delusional LGBT people who are now denying that the Orlando shooter is a terrorist and affiliated with ISIS, and who are completely denying that this attack was jihad? The Orlando shooter was a terrorist, was muslim, was affiliated with ISIS, and the attack at Pulse dance club was jihad.


FBI Special Agent Ron Hopper told reporters that Mateen had been interviewed by FBI officers twice in 2013 following inflammatory comments to colleagues asserting ties to the so-called Islamic State group (IS).
The investigation ended after officers were unable to substantiate the claims. However, Mateen was questioned again in 2014 about a potential connection to Moner Mohammad Abu-Salha, an American known to have carried out a suicide bombing in Syria.

Orlando nightclub shooting: How the attack unfolded (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36511778)



The FBI confirmed the shooting is being investigated as an act of terror. It said it had investigated the gunman, Omar Mateen, in 2013 and 2014 for having suspected ties to terrorist groups.
FBI investigators said he told co-workers he had family connections to Al Qaeda. He also claimed membership in the Shi’ite militant group Hezbollah.
During the Orlando attack, the FBI said Mateen pledged allegiance to Islamic State during calls to police. He also mentioned the Boston Marathon bombers and a man who carried out a suicide attack in Syria.

Orlando Shooting: Terrorism or Hate Crime? (http://learningenglish.voanews.com/a/was-the-orlando-shooting-at-gay-nightclub-terrorism-or-a-hate-crime/3375985.html)


Note, the groups mentioned are all in direct competition with all the others. It would be patently illogical this person, the shooter, was involved with all of them. They would not have lived long enough to have done a thing had they been so diversely affiliated. The best any official says is he was investigated and no clear links were found, a lot of sound and fury but no direct or clear links existed, not even any indirect links.

Still yet I return to the N (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorization_Act)ational Defense Authorization Act, this allows the Department of Defense to engage in creation, distribution of propaganda via any means, even to U.S. citizens. Also recently the FDA has proven its ability to be complicit in corruption by big tobacco, in so much that it will make it illegal for citizens to be truthful regarding a smoking alternative. Why trust anything the government says at this point?

What I am showing here is that two media sources cite government sources. Both either directly state there were no terrorism connections, or that if there were they are still lost to figure out how those existed. I'm sure I could find other media sources stating much the same line of discussion, citing government sources, ... no terrorism links existed.

Fine, in so far as anyone is concerned it appears, no terrorism links existed.

[darkeyes]

Dark, you should know by now of my fondness for you but yes, we don't see eye to eye here.

For starters, how is Pole's perceived prejudice towards Islam any different from your prejudice towards deity & religion ? And why do you appear to be coming to a sudden defense for a supposed religion that is suspect, has a history of barbarism ? You also appear to come across with the distorted mindset that the victim ( i.e. " the west brought upon itself") is responsible for the victimization. Sounds just like Sharia Law to me. I recently read an account of a 16 year old Muslim girl who was raped and then subsequently murdered by a brother in an " honor killing " because she had shamed the family. Huh? She was a victim to begin with and then victimized again, punished for being a victim, and then sacrificed in order for the family to save face ! Just one of many examples of why I agree with Pole on this.

If you feel that you're in a fog ....maybe it's that of denial ! Personally, I feel that I'm seeing very clearly.I may dislike the idea of deity and religion but I have never mooted their banning and the prohibition of belief.. I do not behave badly by acting against a person in a prejudicial manner because of his or her religion. I would not have anyone deported from, or prohibited entry to my country because of their God and their religious beliefs. On the contrary, I have often argued and throughout these pages too, for compassion and tolerance, understanding and acceptance of those whose beliefs are not mine. I do not hate a person because of their beliefs but will defend their right to what they believe, as I have often done both here and actively in my non-cyber life. That is how he and I are different.. very different.

Distorted mindset? I will break this down into 2 parts.That centuries of hatred, abuse, thievery of resources and contempt by the west against in the first place Islam.. the bullying by western nations, principally France and Britain and the US but Israel too and others of Islamic people, lands and countries has brought us to where we are today.. western contempt and and its support for and the intransigence of Israel has brought us to where we are today.. centuries of western meddling activity in the middle east in particular, but elsewhere in the Islamic world created the conditions for groups like Fatah, AlQaeda and Isil to breed and thrive by creating mistrust and hatred between people and countries. That is the wider political picture.. but..

..if we look at this one man in Orlando alone, I am saying I don't necessarily accept the Trump, Poley's or ur view of his motives. Rather it seems to me this man was isolated from his society because of what he was as a result of centuries of oppression of his sexuality... is ancestral society and the one he was born into, lived and died in. It is one thing to make legal certain human acts such as sexuality, quite another to overcome centuries of oppression and prohibition. This not to say the his religion played no part whatsoever in is act, it is to say that I am not convinced it was the principal motive.

I am not saying in a wider context that there are not parts of the world where Islam is practiced in a quite barbaric way. That is human action, not the action of a religion, and certainly not of a God.. human beings using religion as a pretext for power and tailoring it for their own purposes is an old human trick. In parts of the world, in different and similar ways, Christians have and still do act in precisely the same way.. many Islamic people and some people of other religions see how the west tried to run the world as an attempt to in impose Christian belief as well as western principle upon them and their society. They see them as part of the same.. religion and principle are the same. Many western politicians (mostly on the right) talk of crusade wen arguing for western intervention in Islamic countries.. a dangerous word when discussing conflict in the Islamic world and western involvement in it. Think how u feel about the word Jihad and u may get an idea of why Moslems so often react badly to it.

I do not ignore the wrongs committed by some Islamic people upon both people their own religion and of others, but equally I do not ignore the crimes and horrors of people from my own society, whether religious or not against those different from them in other countries, and at home for that matter. It is just that I think there is a better way than eye for an eye..

I'm not in a fog.. nor am I in denial. Think differently sure. Very differently.. funnily enough, while I am no Christian, in many ways I do adhere to the Christian doctrines of peace, thou shalt not kill, non violence and love thy neighbour.. I try to absolutely and do ok tyvm. These things are why I am a pacifist and feel as I do.. I may not believe Jesus Christ was son of God, or the trinity, but he didn't half have some terrific ideas among his more daft ones.. or as I prefer to believe, someone did..

[void()]

Dark, you should know by now of my fondness for you but yes, we don't see eye to eye here.

For starters, how is Pole's perceived prejudice towards Islam any different from your prejudice towards deity & religion ?

Not to answer for her, yet to express something I feel a need to clarify. Choosing to be Atheist is not prejudice. It is a view held after logical, objective research & comprehension. This excludes it from being prejudiced, i.e. judged beforehand.

[OlderBC1]

As Americans, we need to strike back! In my experiences, the only thing a bully will ever understand is a bigger bully! Being part redneck & a hunter, & son of a Seabee, I have that can do attitude about putting foot to ass for my country & the good of all! Damn towel heads need to learn humility! They still represent the attitudes of the Ottoman Empire they fought with centuries ago. They just go about differently today. Yeah, I have a Patton complex. But I am old school. When you stick your hand in a bloody mess that, only a moment ago was your wife or buddy's face...you'll damn sure know what to do! We need to, once again, just as we taught Japan, that they've awakened a sleeping giant! General Yamamoto tried to warn the emperor of precisely this point before Pearl Harbor. Now it's our turn once again to teach the world what happens when the giant is once again awakened to anger...as for myself...beware a hungry German...

[darkeyes]

As Americans, we need to strike back! In my experiences, the only thing a bully will ever understand is a bigger bully! Being part redneck & a hunter, & son of a Seabee, I have that can do attitude about putting foot to ass for my country & the good of all! Damn towel heads need to learn humility! They still represent the attitudes of the Ottoman Empire they fought with centuries ago. They just go about differently today. Yeah, I have a Patton complex. But I am old school. When you stick your hand in a bloody mess that, only a moment ago was your wife or buddy's face...you'll damn sure know what to do! We need to, once again, just as we taught Japan, that they've awakened a sleeping giant! General Yamamoto tried to warn the emperor of precisely this point before Pearl Harbor. Now it's our turn once again to teach the world what happens when the giant is once again awakened to anger...as for myself...beware a hungry German...Wee jest, right? Wee piss take, right? If not then this is just the sort of racist, war mongering garbage to solve the problems of the world and create peace on the earth... and he wants to repeat the mistake of Bush and Blair and blow the fuck out of people on literally no evidence! Christ.. no wonder I despair sometimes. I thank kismet my optimism has a habit of overcoming that despair because I see much more good in people than I see bad however much the numpties of this world try to prove me wrong.

[Nudirection]

Older, we are fighting back..just look at the number of terrorist leaders we have killed in recent years, the military coalition that is reclaiming land from ISIS, and the number of terror plots we have uncovered and prevented . The accusation that the current administration is doing nothing to fight back and stop these attacks is quite simply not supported by the facts. And the success of these efforts is why ISIS are relying on lone wolf attacks by homegrown citizens to carry out their war of terror. We need to do more to stop this, and banning the easy purchase of assault weapons- genuine weapons of mass destruction- will be a big step in that direction. But what will not work is to declare war on a religion, and the people, many of them law abiding Americans, who practice it. That response is precisely what ISIS wants, and such an immoral and wrong headed approach will be playing into their hands.

[tenni]

There is an interesting video going around about mass murder shootings in the US. It compares who is declared a terrorist and who is a one off tragedy and a person with mental illness. White Supremist, Dylan Roof who entered a black church and killed nine black church goers as an example. He reportedly said that Black people had to go. He fit the definition of a terrorist to a t but was not charged with terrorism nor did the media refer to him as a terrorist. As soon as the perpetrator is a Muslim or looks like a Muslim, mass murder is quickly called terrorism.

Three mass murders in the past year were done by Muslims. The other 130 mass shootings were not called acts of terrorism. They are called other names like hate crimes, tragedies or other labels. Muslims who commit mass acts of violence are easily deemed terrorists.


The US people are quickly connecting that all Muslim Americans are terrorists.
You should not use terrorism to justify demonizing an entire religion. Just as you do not label all whites as terrorists you should not label all Muslims as terrorists. These are words and ideas from this video.(sorry could not find a link readily)
.................................................. ...............................................
Are these people intellectually illiterate and incapable of reasoning or are they falling victims of manipulative propaganda? Who is really manipulating US people? Why is this being done?

[pole_smoker]

blah blah blah see me troll and deflect
Deflect, deflect, and deflect!!!

Ignore the cause of the shooting and attack against gay men and women in Orlando, which is Islam. :rolleyes:

Start to attack people of the United States like you usually do. :rolleyes:

[OlderBC1]

No blowing things up like they do...I didn't say that! War mongering my foot. I'm talking about the kind of patriotism that formed this country, even against the Tory's of the time. You can't reason with them, you can't nicely ask them to stop & be Americans. It's not repeating mistakes to defend yourself & your friends & family against a bunch of murdering extremists. Gun control absolutely will not solve the problem! You have to change the thinking of the idiot behind the trigger. Guns are dumb machines with no will of their own. You won't find much true good in evil-intentioned people. Look at them historically, & you'll see what I mean. They've been beating each other up for some 6,000 years! They're used to violence & bloodshed. At least we fight for good reasons...though, not all the time with modern administrations. I'm just saying we need to fight back any way we can to stop this insane killing us because we're not them. Their bible tells them to do so. I had a site that discussed it in my old computer, but the hard drive fubar'd itself. So, if one of them killed your mate, son, daughter, etc...you'd do nothing...or call the cops? This country, & my father fought bloody wars so we could argue semantics...or to put it another way-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hDqFJJDHhk

[pole_smoker]

What Westerners have a tough time understanding is that while Islam is considered simply a "religion" in the West, in Muslim countries, it is the foundation of their culture, mentality, and lifestyle, politics, a highly regimented way of life that dictates every waking moment of their existence. Muslims are subsumed in Islam 24/7. There is nothing else, no choice, no alternative lifestyle or alternative religion or spirtuality. While Muslims in the West may partake of those things they are forbidden in Muslim culture - drugs, women, alcohol, sex with the same sex - they remain disgusted, contemptuous and deeply hateful of Western values and decadence.

Mateen wasn't "radicalized" or "devout" or even "not particularly religious". He was Muslim, behaving in the manner that his culture has inculcated in him and demands of him.


No they're not all terrorists; but a large percentage of them even the so called "moderate" and "liberal" muslims excuse Terrorism, hate anyone that's gay/lesbian or bisexual, hate anyone that's not Muslim, treat women like property or not even second class citizens, and hate the Western world even the ones that have moved to or were raised in Europe or North America.

Also if a lot of them had their way they would invade a country, breed like rabbits, and take over the country which is what they have done in many places and they want to do this to European countries like France, Germany, Italy, Spain, and the UK all while claiming to be "refugees" while they suck the tit of free benefits, jobs, free money, and free housing while actual citizens of those countries are homeless, starving, and not working.

[pepperjack]

Not to answer for her, yet to express something I feel a need to clarify. Choosing to be Atheist is not prejudice. It is a view held after logical, objective research & comprehension. This excludes it from being prejudiced, i.e. judged beforehand.

Oh, really ? Then why is it that I'm constantly seeing media reports of atheists filing lawsuits because of some public representation of religion ( especially during the holiday season ) which they deem as "offensive?"

If that's not bias, I don't know what is.

I have yet to see an account of a Christian filing suit through the ACLU against an atheist because of a perceived offense.

[pepperjack]

I may dislike the idea of deity and religion but I have never mooted their banning and the prohibition of belief.. I do not behave badly by acting against a person in a prejudicial manner because of his or her religion. I would not have anyone deported from, or prohibited entry to my country because of their God and their religious beliefs. On the contrary, I have often argued and throughout these pages too, for compassion and tolerance, understanding and acceptance of those whose beliefs are not mine. I do not hate a person because of their beliefs but will defend their right to what they believe, as I have often done both here and actively in my non-cyber life. That is how he and I are different.. very different.

Distorted mindset? I will break this down into 2 parts.That centuries of hatred, abuse, thievery of resources and contempt by the west against in the first place Islam.. the bullying by western nations, principally France and Britain and the US but Israel too and others of Islamic people, lands and countries has brought us to where we are today.. western contempt and and its support for and the intransigence of Israel has brought us to where we are today.. centuries of western meddling activity in the middle east in particular, but elsewhere in the Islamic world created the conditions for groups like Fatah, AlQaeda and Isil to breed and thrive by creating mistrust and hatred between people and countries. That is the wider political picture.. but..

..if we look at this one man in Orlando alone, I am saying I don't necessarily accept the Trump, Poley's or ur view of his motives. Rather it seems to me this man was isolated from his society because of what he was as a result of centuries of oppression of his sexuality... is ancestral society and the one he was born into, lived and died in. It is one thing to make legal certain human acts such as sexuality, quite another to overcome centuries of oppression and prohibition. This not to say the his religion played no part whatsoever in is act, it is to say that I am not convinced it was the principal motive.

I am not saying in a wider context that there are not parts of the world where Islam is practiced in a quite barbaric way. That is human action, not the action of a religion, and certainly not of a God.. human beings using religion as a pretext for power and tailoring it for their own purposes is an old human trick. In parts of the world, in different and similar ways, Christians have and still do act in precisely the same way.. many Islamic people and some people of other religions see how the west tried to run the world as an attempt to in impose Christian belief as well as western principle upon them and their society. They see them as part of the same.. religion and principle are the same. Many western politicians (mostly on the right) talk of crusade wen arguing for western intervention in Islamic countries.. a dangerous word when discussing conflict in the Islamic world and western involvement in it. Think how u feel about the word Jihad and u may get an idea of why Moslems so often react badly to it.

I do not ignore the wrongs committed by some Islamic people upon both people their own religion and of others, but equally I do not ignore the crimes and horrors of people from my own society, whether religious or not against those different from them in other countries, and at home for that matter. It is just that I think there is a better way than eye for an eye..

I'm not in a fog.. nor am I in denial. Think differently sure. Very differently.. funnily enough, while I am no Christian, in many ways I do adhere to the Christian doctrines of peace, thou shalt not kill, non violence and love thy neighbour.. I try to absolutely and do ok tyvm. These things are why I am a pacifist and feel as I do.. I may not believe Jesus Christ was son of God, or the trinity, but he didn't half have some terrific ideas among his more daft ones.. or as I prefer to believe, someone did..

Dark, I know you thrive on controversy and love a good argument and I think I " lit a fire under you ! " :bigrin: Your response was exactly what I expected.

With that being said.....

I also dislike Islam, don't trust it, and I repeat that I agree with many of Pole's comments about its history, etc. because it matches what I have learned in my research, experiences. Granted, I did briefly know some American Muslims that appeared to be peaceful. And I'm not advocating war against the religion, only ISIS .

When you suggested that the West brought this hatred & these kind of attacks upon itself, that lit my fire. That's so akin to a savvy criminal defense attorney for a rapist making the victim appear responsible !

I do agree with you that the shooter's background definitely came into play as far as motive. " We live what we learn. " And why does it have to be a singular motive ? Human beings are complex. I know that I've made decisions based on several factors; who hasn't?

As far as pacifism, put yourself in one of the victim's shoes. I'm sure you've heard of the ' fight or flight response. '

" You may not be interested in war but war may be interested in you. " Trotsky

Still luv ya, my fiery, passionate 'lil friend.

[sysper]

they might not use aclu but u also got groups who wanna display the 10 commandments in court, teach creationism with evolution or even in place of it. etc i don't think either 1 is right to force there views like that.
Oh, really ? Then why is it that I'm constantly seeing media reports of atheists filing lawsuits because of some public representation of religion ( especially during the holiday season ) which they deem as "offensive?"

If that's not bias, I don't know what is.

I have yet to see an account of a Christian filing suit through the ACLU against an atheist because of a perceived offense.

[darkeyes]

Dark, I know you thrive on controversy and love a good argument and I think I " lit a fire under you ! " :bigrin: Your response was exactly what I expected.

With that being said.....

I also dislike Islam, don't trust it, and I repeat that I agree with many of Pole's comments about its history, etc. because it matches what I have learned in my research, experiences. Granted, I did briefly know some American Muslims that appeared to be peaceful. And I'm not advocating war against the religion, only ISIS .

When you suggested that the West brought this hatred & these kind of attacks upon itself, that lit my fire. That's so akin to a savvy criminal defense attorney for a rapist making the victim appear responsible !

I do agree with you that the shooter's background definitely came into play as far as motive. " We live what we learn. " And why does it have to be a singular motive ? Human beings are complex. I know that I've made decisions based on several factors; who hasn't?

As far as pacifism, put yourself in one of the victim's shoes. I'm sure you've heard of the ' fight or flight response. '

" You may not be interested in war but war may be interested in you. " Trotsky

Still luv ya, my fiery, passionate 'lil friend.My pacifism is absolute. Pep.. it means not lifting a finger to harm any other human being in defence of my life.. it does not mean not fighting for my life.. fighting for cause or in defence of one's life does not necessarily mean violence. I leave that to those who may oppose what I believe.

Trotsky of course was wrong. War has no interest in me or ne1 else for that matter.. human beings of violent and cruel intent may come knocking at my and other folks door and war upon us, but that isn't quite the same thing in my view.

I was going to give u a nice wee diatribe of the Fran doctrine of peace and love, Pep... but today I don't really up to it so forgive me if I withdraw from this discussion at least for the present.. :)

[pepperjack]

No blowing things up like they do...I didn't say that! War mongering my foot. I'm talking about the kind of patriotism that formed this country, even against the Tory's of the time. You can't reason with them, you can't nicely ask them to stop & be Americans. It's not repeating mistakes to defend yourself & your friends & family against a bunch of murdering extremists. Gun control absolutely will not solve the problem! You have to change the thinking of the idiot behind the trigger. Guns are dumb machines with no will of their own. You won't find much true good in evil-intentioned people. Look at them historically, & you'll see what I mean. They've been beating each other up for some 6,000 years! They're used to violence & bloodshed. At least we fight for good reasons...though, not all the time with modern administrations. I'm just saying we need to fight back any way we can to stop this insane killing us because we're not them. Their bible tells them to do so. I had a site that discussed it in my old computer, but the hard drive fubar'd itself. So, if one of them killed your mate, son, daughter, etc...you'd do nothing...or call the cops? This country, & my father fought bloody wars so we could argue semantics...or to put it another way-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hDqFJJDHhk

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/muslim-practice-of-drinking-camel-urine-causing-huge-spike-in-saudi-mers-infections/

[Country Guy]

News media is reporting that he dated men and women. But nobody has used the "B" word. More Bi erasure

[pole_smoker]

News media is reporting that he dated men and women. But nobody has used the "B" word. More Bi erasure

You really want this mass murderer and Jihadist Muslim terrorist to be labeled as "bisexual"? Why? Then you go on and claim it's bisexual erasure? :rolleyes:

I've read articles that basically say he was gay and repressed/closeted, which is extremely common with Muslim women and men.

But he was extremely fucked up, and his wife and family had to know he was going to attack and kill people somewhere. I read how the wife and he went to Disney world to scope it out to attack and kill people there, but they settled on attacking and killing people at the dance club instead.

[tenni]

News media is reporting that he dated men and women. But nobody has used the "B" word. More Bi erasure

I figured that out quite awhile ago. Sadly, it is negative but still the media doesn't get it. If a man dates a woman and a man(or tries to), he is not gay. He is bisexual. He married two women. He may have surpressed his attraction to men but chances are more likely that he was bisexual than gay.

[yessirtiresflat]

Islam ain't no religion no how.

[tenni]

Here is an interesting premise. Could the GLBT movement take on the NRA and win? Can the culture be changed?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/06/17/the-orlando-shooting-could-actually-lead-to-meaningful-gun-reform-heres-why/?postshare=2121466190933586&tid=ss_fb-bottom&utm_campaign=buffer&utm_content=buffer51187&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com

[pepperjack]

Here's an interesting question :

How many members of the NRA do you suppose are legal gun owners and belong to the LGBT community, secretly or otherwise ?

The shooter was obviously very sexually conflicted, a security guard for one of the largest private security contractors in the world, which is exactly what made the attack possible.

[pole_smoker]

I figured that out quite awhile ago. Sadly, it is negative but still the media doesn't get it. If a man dates a woman and a man(or tries to), he is not gay. He is bisexual. He married two women. He may have surpressed his attraction to men but chances are more likely that he was bisexual than gay.
LOL, the fact that you, tenni or Jim Riley, a closeted gay man want to defend this guy as being bisexual, and not gay, is not surprising. :rolleyes:

I'm not the one that outed you as a longtime member who knew you from off this site did years ago.

Just because a man that's gay has sex with women, dates them, or even marries a woman that does not make him bisexual. My husband and I know men who are gay and lesbian women who have had sex with the opposite sex and who were even married to opposite sex partners-some even married multiple opposite sex partners and had kids with them; but they're gay or lesbian, and not bisexual at all unlike myself and my husband who have had sex with both sexes and we're romantically attracted to both sexes as well.

Omar Mateen was gay and into the whole ex-gay movement that Islam practices where basically if you are Muslim and gay, and come out you risk death both from family members, and other devout Muslims.

Even his dad and wife said he was gay, and so did all of the men on Grindr he hooked up with and men in LGBT bars and dance clubs who hooked up with him.

http://nypost.com/2016/06/13/shooter-used-to-visit-orlando-gay-club-use-gay-dating-apps/

[pole_smoker]

Thankfully Charles Martel kept the Muslims out of Europe in the Middle Ages or else we would all be Muslim and stuck in the 8th
Century still, as most Muslims are.

Be grateful daily that you were born in the Western world, and not in an Islamic country or to an Islamic parents if you're a lesbian, gay, or bisexual person, Jewish person, Hindu, Buddhist, practice Jainism, are Christian, or are a young boy, girl, or woman.

[pepperjack]

Not only that, his father was a longtime supporter of the Taliban in Afghanistan, which speaks volumes of the environment he grew up in. Recent reports indicate he was already threatening mass murder in the 5th grade ! Once again, mind boggling. When I was in the 5th grade, bringing a gun to school with the intent of murdering one's classmates was completely unheard of.

I thought there was some really weird behavior going on with his father the first time I saw him being interviewed.

Maybe the shooter was sexually abused by his father as a child. In my mind, that would explain the powder keg that was brewing there as a young boy.

[pole_smoker]

The naivete of Western liberals regarding Muslim immigrants is astounding. It's like they believe that people who come from absolute shithole countries that force a barbaric, sociopathic ideology into their heads 24/7 will suddenly leave all that behind five minutes after they immigrate to Europe or the US. Are you fucking kidding me? They're NOT going to leave it behind and they view Westerners as decadent, filthy infidels. They're only here for the money and benefits. And of course their children who are raised in the West are going to be taught all the awful things Islam teaches. The cluelessness of Westerners is incredible.

Look at all the second and even third generation Muslims who were raised in the West and they're just as bad as their parents, sometimes even worse. The majority of Muslims do not assimilate and create nothing but problems in Western countries.

There's something inherently wrong in Islam as a whole, that makes it incapable of tolerating any other culture or religion beside itself. There the ones that are causing intolerance and bigotry, not you or me. If you're trying to compare this to bigotry against Jews, blacks, or any other historical discrimination you're sadly mistaken.

Still, there is no getting around the truth that homophobia/biphobia is rampant in the Muslim world. It is clerically justified and socially defended. Fifty-one states constitute the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC), and ten of them punish homosexual/bisexual activity with the death penalty, including Afghanistan, where the Orlando killer traced his roots. Nearly all the others have criminalized homosexuality with sentences ranging from one month to life in prison. Gays, bisexuals, and lesbians are viewed as demonically inverting nature, as sinners, freaks, deviants, corrupters, insurrectionists, miscreants. Their sexual orientation shames whole families into denouncing them, and even killing them. Honor killings do happen in the Western world more than people want to admit. Bisexual, gay, and lesbian Muslims live in perpetual fear and perpetual hiding.

It is Muslims who are the paranoid, hateful and fearful ones. The West has pandered to their backwards social mores long enough.

The Koran/Sharia Law is the basis of the governmental & legal systems of EVERY majority Muslim country on Earth.

Don't let the manufactured term of "moderate Muslim" fool you. Even alleged "moderates" like Morocco, Indonesia, Malaysia do not tolerate any type of "blasphemy" against the Koran, the prophet, Allah nor Islam. You'll lose your freedom, skin off your back or even your head, if you do so.

Islam is NOT gay/bisexual/lesbian friendly, nor even tolerant. Islam as a whole also hates women, and non-Muslims. Stop deluding yourselves.

[notmacbi]

Locks keep honest people honest, period. Locks have never stopped a person with intent from getting past a lock. Gun laws keep law abiding citizens from owning guns. Persons with intent to kill will NOT be stopped by gun laws. Hell over 3000 were killed and not one gun was fired on 9/11. Focus on gun laws destroys the effort on the true problem, which has been going on for thousands of years. Even THOMAS Jefferson created the US Navy as a response to the very same problem. A group of people with a religious belief that includes killing people that do not share the same belief. The Crusades were started over the very same problem. Look at true history and you'll see the problem.

[pole_smoker]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/man-who-says-he-was-omar-mateens-gay-lover-speaks-out/ar-AAhpOQM?li=BBnb7Kz


Miguel said in an interview with Univision that Mateen, who was killed by police during the rampage on the Pulse nightclub early on June 12, was gay.

http://1389blog.com/pix/coexist-foolish-infidels.jpg

[pepperjack]

Interesting, insightful link. Makes sense to me considering all the data I've gathered. Explains why he would specifically target the club's Latino Night .

Acting under the banner of ISIS made him feel empowered, justified while cloaking other, ulterior motives. As I stated before, the movement deliberately seeks out explosive loose cannons such as him to act in its behalf. It's replete with savage sadists proclaiming to be acting for a " noble cause . "

[void()]

Oh, really ? Then why is it that I'm constantly seeing media reports of atheists filing lawsuits because of some public representation of religion ( especially during the holiday season ) which they deem as "offensive?"

If that's not bias, I don't know what is.


It is not prejudicial in that the atheist has judged for themselves that religion itself is prejudiced. The atheist considers religions, studies them and decides objectively as they may that religion does not suit them. Is it bias in a society founded upon secular principal to not desire religious principal overshadowing public secular space? I do not think so, as bias would infer prejudice, or judging before examining in objective manner. I said it was not prejudice.

[pole_smoker]

It is not prejudicial in that the atheist has judged for themselves that religion itself is prejudiced. The atheist considers religions, studies them and decides objectively as they may that religion does not suit them. Is it bias in a society founded upon secular principal to not desire religious principal overshadowing public secular space? I do not think so, as bias would infer prejudice, or judging before examining in objective manner. I said it was not prejudice.

A lot of Atheists are completely bigoted or prejudiced against anyone that is religious or spiritual, and even go as far as calling anyone that is spiritual or religious an idiot, ignorant, someone who doesn't want to believe in reality, someone who believes in fairy tales, etc. and atheists are just as hypocritical and proselytizing as people who are religious or spiritual and fundamentalist in their beliefs.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcXWXz2_8gA

[pepperjack]

It is not prejudicial in that the atheist has judged for themselves that religion itself is prejudiced. The atheist considers religions, studies them and decides objectively as they may that religion does not suit them. Is it bias in a society founded upon secular principal to not desire religious principal overshadowing public secular space? I do not think so, as bias would infer prejudice, or judging before examining in objective manner. I said it was not prejudice.

I rest my case : http://thescoopblog.dallasnews.com/2016/06/oh-heavens-fight-breaks-out-over-gods-country-signs-in-small-texas-town.html/ Also, another reminder...don't fuck with Texas ! :smilies15

[darkeyes]

I rest my case Wy? Is it heavy:tongue:?

:love87:

[pepperjack]

Wy? Is it heavy:tongue:?

:love87:

Touche ! ;) Ever the clever smart-arse :smilies15

[void()]

A lot of Atheists are completely bigoted or prejudiced against anyone that is religious or spiritual, and even go as far as calling anyone that is spiritual or religious an idiot, ignorant, someone who doesn't want to believe in reality, someone who believes in fairy tales, etc. and atheists are just as hypocritical and proselytizing as people who are religious or spiritual and fundamentalist in their beliefs.



A lot of Atheists are, ...

Fair enough statement. A lot of Jews are, ... A lot of Hindus are, ... A lot of Christians are, ...

Not all are X, nor is X all. I will agree there are some that are bigoted & some that are not bigoted.


... and atheists are just as ...

Not all though & for you to express it that all are X again is not honest. You are honest expressing some are, you might say a lot are. But saying all are X is not honest. I am fairly sure you do not know each and every atheist, living, or dead. There are some what blend in quite well and do not openly express their atheism. These folks simply reply, "well, no one directly asked so I never directly said."

Some of us choose to live without religion. We find other means to channel spirituality. We have no need of promises of rewards, or punishments. We do not perceive ourselves children. Some do not care what others believe. I rather seek to know than believe, as beliefs can be changed by lies of others. Knowing it for oneself cannot be changed unless one finds further evidence proving or disproving something & so chooses to change what is known based upon fact. I do not care if others believe in a holy pine cone, so long as they are not cramming it down my throat at gun point, literally or figuratively. I try to avoid doing the same.

Again, I concede some are different, some atheists are bigots. Well, some Christians are bigots too. Don't that just beat fuck all? So there we are.

[void()]

I rest my case : http://thescoopblog.dallasnews.com/2016/06/oh-heavens-fight-breaks-out-over-gods-country-signs-in-small-texas-town.html/ Also, another reminder...don't fuck with Texas ! :smilies15

Oh gee, one example. How lovely for you to be so swayed by one example. See my post to pole, again, not all. I concede that yes some may be. I do not concede that all are as you say. You have that with any cross section of people, human beings though. It's like my uncle taught me, if you point a finger, three point right back. I'll read back but I do not think my posts were pointing fingers. I think the crux of my posts were expressing this point exactly, you've good and bad in all walks of humanity. Okay, so what? There we are.

[void()]

Locks keep honest people honest, period. Locks have never stopped a person with intent from getting past a lock. Gun laws keep law abiding citizens from owning guns. Persons with intent to kill will NOT be stopped by gun laws. Hell over 3000 were killed and not one gun was fired on 9/11. Focus on gun laws destroys the effort on the true problem, which has been going on for thousands of years. Even THOMAS Jefferson created the US Navy as a response to the very same problem. A group of people with a religious belief that includes killing people that do not share the same belief. The Crusades were started over the very same problem. Look at true history and you'll see the problem.

BUMP! Thank you for this truth.

The only further I'd add is that it seems government is attempting to police thought. Right up front, how does anyone know what another will do with any tool? They do not. Yet all these laws and regulations seem to stipulate everyone is guilty of crime, because of course, we all know everyone has criminal thoughts. That to me is total bullshit logic too. If they want to police thoughts we ALL may as well go ahead and sign up for euthanasia and be done.

[void()]

Numbers expressed in this chart (https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/preliminary-semiannual-uniform-crime-report-januaryjune-2015/tables/table-3) in percentages. I posted a link to this on another site in regards to gun violence. It holds up for the argument of mass murder, terrorism here as well. Interesting comparing it to this (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm). It would be nice if people spouting things like:


I read how the wife and he went to Disney world to scope it out to attack and kill people there, but they settled on attacking and killing people at the dance club instead.

could offer cited reference to where it was read or allegedly stated, proven. Factual data is factual & it is as honest as we can get. Even then, if it comes from the government or media I am weary of it. The military is authorized to use any media and can legally publish, distribute falsehoods, lies, deceptions a.k.a propaganda. You think they will not use such tactics against American people? It may do you well to find stronger coffee, they can, do and will.

I have had personal experience with it, yet will not posit that here as personal anecdote is that only. Suffice it to say I know they do & nothing anyone on any public based web forum says will suggest otherwise to me. In fact I would think anyone attempting to sway me so would be an agent provocateur & not trustworthy in the slightest. Rather see factual data than simple dumps of diatribe espousing whatever claims. Provide a credible source.

[pepperjack]

Oh gee, one example. How lovely for you to be so swayed by one example. See my post to pole, again, not all. I concede that yes some may be. I do not concede that all are as you say. You have that with any cross section of people, human beings though. It's like my uncle taught me, if you point a finger, three point right back. I'll read back but I do not think my posts were pointing fingers. I think the crux of my posts were expressing this point exactly, you've good and bad in all walks of humanity. Okay, so what? There we are.

It's one example that drives home my original point in a previous post. :rolleyes: It's representative of a pattern I've been aware of going on for years now,especially since the Freedom From Religion Foundation came on the scene. It's been especially aggressive and consistent in attacking any outward, public display of Christianity it finds "offensive." Choosing to live religion free is one thing. Constantly going out of one's way to criticize, attack and disrupt the lifestyles of those who choose to live differently IS bias/prejudice, which are actually one & the same thing.

The FFRF also deliberately spews its propaganda on prominent billboards across the country. You might see opinions of dislike even disgust posted online but you don't see Christians routinely dragging atheists into court because of what they see while driving down the road; a point I also made in my previous post which you conveniently avoided and refused to address.

You're either not reading my posts with comprehension or you're trying to obfuscate the issue or both.

[pole_smoker]

On other sites I have noticed LGBT people blaming fundie Christians, politicians, and pretty much anything and anyone but Islam for the Orlando massacre of LGBT people by a closeted gay man and Jihadist.

[pole_smoker]

Omar Mateen's reaction is one that closeted gay muslins have, they marry women and cheat on them with men, and then publically and to their families support the killing and execution of bisexual and gay men. This also happens in the Western world. Omar's father's reaction to the Western world and non-Muslims is extremely common even among Muslims living in the Western world who have been here for decades.

What's the difference between a Jihadist Muslim, and moderate/liberal muslims? The moderate/Liberal muslims don't care if the Jihadists cut the heads off of anyone who they hate which includes westerners, bisexual and gay men, women, Hindu people, Christians, and Jews.

On other sites I have noticed ignorant people, even LGBT people blaming fundie Christians, politicians, and pretty much anything and anyone but Islam for the Orlando massacre of LGBT people by a closeted gay man and Jihadist.

Make no mistake about it, Islam promotes violence and hate, and there have been no reformations of it as the vast majority of Muslims worldwide are stuck in the 8th Century AD.

http://1389blog.com/pix/coexist-foolish-infidels.jpg

http://www.israelislamandendtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Obama-The-Republican-Base-Had-Been-Fed-This-Notion-That-Islam-Is-Inherently-Violent.jpg


The idea that there's rampant "Islamophobia" in the Western world, or that Muslims are frequently discriminated against here is total bullshit promoted by people who are against women's rights, the rights of people who are non-Muslim, people who are against Christians/Jews/Hindus, and against bisexual/gay rights but these people are Sharia Justice Warriors as supporting Islam means you are against human rights or the rights of the types of people I listed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GteiHCL7gC4