What do you all think of this?

[DerrekCooke2]

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/photo/gay-pride-high-res-stock-photography/102198439

[tenni]

It looks like an image created by a gay, young, white male.(s)? It might have been better to have two men and two women in the image rather than four white young men. Perhaps one arm around the same gender person as they raise the rainbow flag. Possibly some non whites and more variety in what they are wearing(a business suit on one woman and one man). Vary the age of the people. For an image on inclusiveness, it falls short of what should be an expectation.

It is an appropriation of a US icon that might give some gay, white US men a chub..lol

[pole_smoker]

It looks like an image created by a gay, young, white male.(s)? It might have been better to have two men and two women in the image rather than four white young men. Perhaps one arm around the same gender person as they raise the rainbow flag. Possibly some non whites and more variety in what they are wearing(a business suit on one woman and one man). Vary the age of the people. For an image on inclusiveness, it falls short of what should be an expectation.

It is an appropriation of a US icon that might give some gay, white US men a chub..lol

:rolleyes: typical reply from tenni that is full of nothing but hate, complaining, and what he personally finds offensive.

That is an old image. I first saw it a decade ago on another site. I could see marines and WW II veterans annoyed at the LGBT community comparing their struggle to that of WW II and the men who fought and died.

[tenni]

Just to reinforce that the points that I made have to do with inclusiveness.

[darkeyes]

:rolleyes: typical reply from tenni that is full of nothing but hate, complaining, and what he personally finds offensive.

That is an old image. I first saw it a decade ago on another site. I could see marines and WW II veterans annoyed at the LGBT community comparing their struggle to that of WW II and the men who fought and died.
If ne1 should be upset, it should be we of the lgbt for our war of recognition and acceptance has been longer and more difficult than any war in history save possibly the wars against racism, xenophobia and that fought for women's equal rights... these wars have lasted millenia and are still 2 be won.

I don't detect h8 of ne1 in anything tenni says.. he as his own, often very misguided ideas (in my opionion, but then don't we all?) and that is why he argues but he doesn't h8.. not folk anyway. I doubt he even h8s u, Poley...☺.

[pole_smoker]

Just to reinforce that the points that I made have to do with inclusiveness.
No they have not.

You are a bigot and homophobe/biphobe.


... when bully fags try to pressure with silly 1970 gay culture language.

[Oztrich]

It would offend a lot of people if only because of its likeness to the flag being planted by US Marines on Iwo Jima on February 23, 1945. The flag was planted on a volcanic mound named Mount Suribachi, overlooking the beaches where US Marines and naval personnel landed. The significance to Marines was mostly in the huge death toll of American troops, and even greater casualty list. More than 20,000 casualties, with close to 7000 dead. Their response would not be so much anti-gay as anti anything or anyone who used that image to support any cause outside that of the Marines themselves. If I posted that on Facebook or any other site filled with mixed groups of people there would be outrage.

[pepperjack]

If ne1 should be upset, it should be we of the lgbt for our war of recognition and acceptance has been longer and more difficult than any war in history save possibly the wars against racism, xenophobia and that fought for women's equal rights... these wars have lasted millenia and are still 2 be won.

I don't detect h8 of ne1 in anything tenni says.. he as his own, often very misguided ideas (in my opionion, but then don't we all?) and that is why he argues but he doesn't h8.. not folk anyway. I doubt he even h8s u, Poley...☺.

Let me ask you , Dark....do you actually believe these, staged, buff, soft , spoiled, pampered models in this mocked up parody would give their blood & guts to fight & die for your civil liberties like the heroic Marines in that iconic slice of American history did? Much as I luv ya, ya surprise me at times.

[darkeyes]

Let me ask you , Dark....do you actually believe these, staged, buff, soft , spoiled, pampered models in this mocked up parody would give their blood & guts to fight & die for your civil liberties like the heroic Marines in that iconic slice of American history did? Much as I luv ya, ya surprise me at times.
Without knowing them it is impossible to say, but people like them.. gay, bi, trans.. have been giving their blood for the things they believe for millenia... people like them have been fighting and dying for civil liberties right across the planet for decades wherever people like us are deprived their civil rights to be as they are and live in peace... people, often spoiled and pampered as they can be, will fight and sacrifice their lives for the right now an until humanity ceases to exist..

..as to the parody, I believe it apt.. it is a picture telling the world, as the orginal marines did 60 years ago ""We have just won a great battle against oppression, but the war is not yet won". It will be won tho, Pepper, and some of those spilling their guts and their blood wiĺl be pampered, spoiled, soft.. rather like me and many people I know... the fashionistas.. never judge by appearance.. it is suprising just how much we will do and sacrifice for what we believe...:)

The spoiled, pampered and soft may enjoy life right enough, but when push comes to shove, many, even most of us will stand up and be counted even if it is not in ways that those marines on that hill over half a century ago would necessarily understand... history is full of the soft, the pampered and the spoiled who made good very bravely indeed, bisexual and gay among them by the million, and so many sadly paid the ultimate price:(.

[itsnormy]

Who knows for certain, the men who planted the American flag in the original photos....bet money there was a gay or bi, among them, if not two, maybe all....

[Sigstache]

As vet I fully understand what they did and sacrificed in the pacific. The artist is saying that gay marriage was a victory won with a struggle, and he's trying to cash in on that. The problem is, the original picture is also about the immense sacrfice and death of many to achieve their victory. Horrible conditions and brutal fighting. 19,200 wounded, 6,800 killed US servicemen. The artist is lightyears from even coming close to what that 1945 picture means. His rendition of that iconic and meaningful photo is disgraceful.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

[pole_smoker]

As vet I fully understand what they did and sacrificed in the pacific. The artist is saying that gay marriage was a victory won with a struggle, and he's trying to cash in on that. The problem is, the original picture is also about the immense sacrfice and death of many to achieve their victory. Horrible conditions and brutal fighting. 19,200 wounded, 6,800 killed US servicemen. The artist is lightyears from even coming close to what that 1945 picture means. His rendition of that iconic and meaningful photo is disgraceful.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
The parody of the WW II marines at Iwo Jima picture with the LGBT flag was made long before most LGBT people cared about same gender marriage, but most people who have been in the military or who have relatives who were in the military or WW II, or other wars would find the image to be in poor taste or silly.

[pepperjack]

Without knowing them it is impossible to say, but people like them.. gay, bi, trans.. have been giving their blood for the things they believe for millenia... people like them have been fighting and dying for civil liberties right across the planet for decades wherever people like us are deprived their civil rights to be as they are and live in peace... people, often spoiled and pampered as they can be, will fight and sacrifice their lives for the right now an until humanity ceases to exist..

..as to the parody, I believe it apt.. it is a picture telling the world, as the orginal marines did 60 years ago ""We have just won a great battle against oppression, but the war is not yet won". It will be won tho, Pepper, and some of those spilling their guts and their blood wiĺl be pampered, spoiled, soft.. rather like me and many people I know... the fashionistas.. never judge by appearance.. it is suprising just how much we will do and sacrifice for what we believe...:)

The spoiled, pampered and soft may enjoy life right enough, but when push comes to shove, many, even most of us will stand up and be counted even if it is not in ways that those marines on that hill over half a century ago would necessarily understand... history is full of the soft, the pampered and the spoiled who made good very bravely indeed, bisexual and gay among them by the million, and so many sadly paid the ultimate price:(.

Let me try to clarify about where I was coming from with my opinions.The comments about soft , spoiled, pampered stem from my experiences with people of that generation. I had a very physically demanding job awhile back ( stressful in other ways as well ) and most of my co-workers were healthy, beefy young guys in their 20's -30's. They were lazy, unmotivated, usually preoccupied with surfing the web on their phones. I was the oldest guy in that area carrying the heaviest work load. And trying to get a helping hand occasionally was like pulling teeth. After I left, it took two of them to do what I used to do by myself and they still missed the deadline! And I have a neighbor, a bodybuilder in his 20's who looks very much like the models in the pic. Like most bodybuilders, he's self-absorbed, vain, narcissistic. We had a very brief power failure recently,the beginning of the severe weather season and he was on his front porch whining about a very common occurrence in the neighborhood this time of year. He can post all kinds of "selfies" and videos on social media, pumping iron, but he can't mow his own yard which only takes about 20 minutes. Instead, he has a guy close to my age do it weekly for $12. And speaking of said media, that's all that picture is about, making a splash on there! Don't know if you remember but I grew up in a military family; dad served 2 tours in the VietNam war. I have an enormous amount of respect for our troops! Disrespect begets disrespect. Luv ya Dark, but we're not on the same page on this one. God bless our gutsy, selfless, heroic troops on the 4th of July! It's because of them that the gay community here is currently celebrating their new found freedom. :2cents:

[pepperjack]

As vet I fully understand what they did and sacrificed in the pacific. The artist is saying that gay marriage was a victory won with a struggle, and he's trying to cash in on that. The problem is, the original picture is also about the immense sacrfice and death of many to achieve their victory. Horrible conditions and brutal fighting. 19,200 wounded, 6,800 killed US servicemen. The artist is lightyears from even coming close to what that 1945 picture means. His rendition of that iconic and meaningful photo is disgraceful.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Amen, guy! Happy 4th to you!

[jem_is_bi]

You definitely will not find that picture hanging on a wall in my home. As a symbol of a gay rights victory, that is in very bad taste.

[chances]

I agree with jem right.
above this

[darkeyes]

Pepper, darlin', politically, am not 2 sure we have ev been on the same page:eek2:. I don't mean that unpleasantly, but as a simple recognition of a truth of wich we r both aware... there r many such peeps in my life, and I neither dislike or resent them or grudge them the opinions they hold.. several are in my closest circle of friends.

.. I am aware that there are those who apparently do little or nothing around home or garden... who am I to judge? We have a wee man comes in once a week, sometimes twice to help keep on top of ours... but ours is a bit more than a yard and encircles the house, so it isn't really a fair comparison. A legacy of Kate's l8 pop whose garden was his passion... the bugger would come back and haunt us if we didnt make sure it looked beautiful... we do our bit, but while we love the garden and even gardening, but unlike Kate's dad, it is not a passion for either of us.. and we have a second garden up north at our cottage.. a lickle ole lady comes in and tends 2 that wen none of the family r in residence. Much smaller thank God but it would be my dad who would come back and haunt us if that garden was allowed to go wild.. worse... he would have me grandad an gran in tow since it was originally their wee "but an' ben".

Trust me... vanity is something I am often accused of. I do like a gud preen 2 look me best... tho must admit the "selfie" craze leaves me cold. It does however have its uses but I do frown a tadge when I see me younger sister, me sister in law, me daughter, a few of me m8s.. umpteen kids in and out of school snapping away haff the day on ther fones at nowt better than ther own fizzogs.. vain I may be but it has limits...:tongue: But then 2 those kids at work "Miss" is nowt moren an old dykie grannie bag.. wont say wot I am 2 the snappers of me family or me m8s.. just kno.. much worse.:eek2:

We will always be on different pages when it comes to the military... Not my cuppa tea at all. My pacifism will not allow me 2 drink of that particular brew.. and so I look on spats like the pic in question differently.. I see a parallel and do not believe it an insult. Not because I loathe the military, but my pacifism sees that over centuries, millenia of human history gay and bi people have been fighting just to survive the war forced on them by societies throughout the world.. millions died because of that persecution including many 10s of thousands in the death camps of Europe in ww2, and many more 10s of thousands fighting that war, and probably many hundreds lost their lives taking that island 60 years ago.

So I am on a different page... I think that the lgbt parody is a compliment to those men, str8, day and bisexual who died on Iwojima in 1945 for is not imitation the sincerest form of flattery? More, it is a compliment to the millions throughout history who died because of humanity's intolerance of their kind.. and often remember, those self same militaries were the tools of oppression deployed... and outwith wartime when many gay and bi people served, the British and US militaries were just such tools until just recently as many former military men and women can testify.

[bigal5050]

as a former marine I find this highly offensive and disgusting and I'm a bi male so its nothing to do with being anti anything or anti anybody, you can try to justify it any way you like but as far as I'm concerned its totally outrageous,

[darkeyes]

Personally, I find the killing of human beings offensive for any reason whatsoever... personally, I find the oppression of human beings offensive. Personally, I find film makers profiting from the deaths of millions and glorifying in war offensive.. human life and freedom have always meant more to me than profit and taking offence at a perceived slight.. but then I suppose I am an odd kind of person. An athiest who takes the words of a man of peace and love that millions claim and believe to be the son of God to heart... Thou shalt not kill.. not all of his words obviously, but these are good enough to be going on with, and in my opinion, his most important, and words which played their part in making me the pacifist that I am. Loving life...both mine own and that of others.:)

[tenni]

Bi gal , Jem etc.
I mean no disrespect but what US societal values do you see this photo representing?

[darkeyes]

I'm not sure, but dontcha think it is Big Al, tenni darlin'? ;) *laffs* Tho maybe it is me who is wrong...:tongue:

[tenni]

lol Fran...my computer is controlled by auto correct and writes what it wants sometimes...BigAl...yes.

Since it wrote...bi hmm Is my computer bisexual..lol?

[pepperjack]

Personally, I find the killing of human beings offensive for any reason whatsoever... personally, I find the oppression of human beings offensive. Personally, I find film makers profiting from the deaths of millions and glorifying in war offensive.. human life and freedom have always meant more to me than profit and taking offence at a perceived slight.. but then I suppose I am an odd kind of person. An athiest who takes the words of a man of peace and love that millions claim and believe to be the son of God to heart... Thou shalt not kill.. not all of his words obviously, but these are good enough to be going on with, and in my opinion, his most important, and words which played their part in making me the pacifist that I am. Loving life...both mine own and that of others.:)

" for any reason whatsoever," Dark? Suppose ISIS came to town & demanded convert or die! You'd have an enormous conundrum on your hands. Not only would you have to determine how to cope with the aggression , the threat of imminent death, you would also have to acknowledge deity & succumb. But not just any deity, but one that is the source of this evil oppression that has entered your life.
You wouldn't feel relieved if the military suddenly intervened, took these predators out & saved your life?
I first began to study martial arts as a 16 yo boy on the island of Okinawa. Specifically, Tae-Kwon-Do and also interestingly, that's where it originated. Perk of being an army brat. Later, in my 20's, I had a private black belt instructor in the art for awhile.
I'm very comfortable with the concept of " the peaceful warrior. " I'm really a softie inside, very sensitive, tenderhearted, compassionate...also pretty much of a pacifist. But there are those in the world, as I'm sure you know, who view these qualities as weakness, vulnerability.
I absolutely love it when an aggressor underestimates me; even encourage it. It ends up being his weakness & vulnerability, not to mention, rude awakening.
The military serves a much needed purpose, like the police.
Someone has to step up to the plate & protect the pacifists.;)

[darkeyes]

Pacifists dont need protecting tyvm... not my kind anyway... we live and fight for peace and refuse to raise a hand to or harm others in any way.. our fight is against violence and war and therefore should Isis or any group or institution, police and military included decide for me to do their way or die then I hope I could be true to my beliefs and sacrifice myself as an example to those who wish me harm as well as them who don't... in my life I have been severely provoked a few times but not since I was a child have I raised my hand to any... tempted sure...more than once and 1ce very sorely so.. but so far good fortune has smiled at me and I have been able to hold to what I believe... no1 can say however how they will react when truly threatened with life's early enforced extinction or should their loved ones be so endangered.. not even soldiers. I am not exceptionally brave but like to think I can remain true to the beliefs I hold should the situation arise... the proof of the pudding is in the eating..

So Allah is an evil deity? Funny thing for me luffly m8 Pepper to say... for Allah is God and God is Allah... so u are saying God is an evil deity. I know u don't mean that but Isis, Isil or Daesh as the French call them (and boy do Isis h8 it) are no more Islamic than I am Christian and they can invoke the name of Allah/God all they like but they dont care about Allah or muslims. They are but handy tools in the Isis war for power. Difference is of course if they come for me for a short time I will know if I am true unto myself..or for a longer time I will realise I have lived a lie and saved me scrawny skin by selling out my most valued belief.. not a nice thing to 2 live with.. and of course they will know for a much longer time however my life plays out... and my only interest in going for them is 2 talk peace, love and non violence.. now that would b an interesting convo... like u I expect it would be short but there are other, braver, brighter and better pacifists than I and after I am gone they will still abound to keep the show on the (very bumpy for a while at least) long and winding road..:)

I have often written about the much needed purpose of the military and (in my humble opinion) that purpose isnt owt to do with protecting u or I except inasmuch as we may be useful tools to enrich the powerful and make them more rich and more powerful at our expense.. their main function is to defend the ruling elite as indeed that is the function of the security services and the forces of law and order.. against external threat surely, but against any who threaten them internally also:eek2:.

[pepperjack]

Pacifists dont need protecting tyvm... not my kind anyway... we live and fight for peace and refuse to raise a hand to or harm others in any way.. our fight is against violence and war and therefore should Isis or any group or institution, police and military included decide for me to do their way or die then I hope I could be true to my beliefs and sacrifice myself as an example to those who wish me harm as well as them who don't... in my life I have been severely provoked a few times but not since I was a child have I raised my hand to any... tempted sure...more than once and 1ce very sorely so.. but so far good fortune has smiled at me and I have been able to hold to what I believe... no1 can say however how they will react when truly threatened with life's early enforced extinction or should their loved ones be so endangered.. not even soldiers. I am not exceptionally brave but like to think I can remain true to the beliefs I hold should the situation arise... the proof of the pudding is in the eating..

So Allah is an evil deity? Funny thing for me luffly m8 Pepper to say... for Allah is God and God is Allah... so u are saying God is an evil deity. I know u don't mean that but Isis, Isil or Daesh as the French call them (and boy do Isis h8 it) are no more Islamic than I am Christian and they can invoke the name of Allah/God all they like but they dont care about Allah or muslims. They are but handy tools in the Isis war for power. Difference is of course if they come for me for a short time I will know if I am true unto myself..or for a longer time I will realise I have lived a lie and saved me scrawny skin by selling out my most valued belief.. not a nice thing to 2 live with.. and of course they will know for a much longer time however my life plays out... and my only interest in going for them is 2 talk peace, love and non violence.. now that would b an interesting convo... like u I expect it would be short but there are other, braver, brighter and better pacifists than I and after I am gone they will still abound to keep the show on the (very bumpy for a while at least) long and winding road..:)

I have often written about the much needed purpose of the military and (in my humble opinion) that purpose isnt owt to do with protecting u or I except inasmuch as we may be useful tools to enrich the powerful and make them more rich and more powerful at our expense.. their main function is to defend the ruling elite as indeed that is the function of the security services and the forces of law and order.. against external threat surely, but against any who threaten them internally also:eek2:.

Yes, you do need protection; look at what happened to Ghandi. Or is that how you hope to exit this world?
I can relate to your comment about "the proof is in the pudding" in a way I don't care to elaborate on at this time.
No, not a funny thing for pepper to say concerning Allah, Dark; a consistent thing. Goes back years when I used to get into arguments about religion with Void. I have NEVER acknowledged Allah as God. And by the way. that's a title, not a name. I happen to know the true names for The Almighty which I personally know to carry much weight.But, been there done that, don't want to spar with you on that topic; pointless.
Excuse me , but my dad's main function was to carve out a living and care for & provide for his family by way of serving his country. Beware of blanket judgements, Dark.:thumbu:

[Cum1st]

My father was on Iwo Jima (known as Operation Detachment) and came back physically intact. On the outside one could say he was lucky. Amongst other things, he had trouble sleeping for the rest of his life. He didn't talk much about his experiences either. He did talk fondly about his life during the occupation of Japan and the Japanese people after the war.

I don't see any equality in the pix.

[darkeyes]

Yes, you do need protection; look at what happened to Ghandi. Or is that how you hope to exit this world?
I can relate to your comment about "the proof is in the pudding" in a way I don't care to elaborate on at this time.
No, not a funny thing for pepper to say concerning Allah, Dark; a consistent thing. Goes back years when I used to get into arguments about religion with Void. I have NEVER acknowledged Allah as God. And by the way. that's a title, not a name. I happen to know the true names for The Almighty which I personally know to carry much weight.But, been there done that, don't want to spar with you on that topic; pointless.
Excuse me , but my dad's main function was to carve out a living and care for & provide for his family by way of serving his country. Beware of blanket judgements, Dark.:thumbu:
The life of a pacifist involves risk.. sad fact of life, and in the case of the Mahatma among others, often a vry unpleasantand violent death. Nope.. it isn't how I wish 2 exit this world although both Kate and me older daughter 2 name but 2 would probably disagree with me.. me wish is 2 b lickle ole lady when me clogs pop and die in same house me dad's mum did and in same way.. in me sleep cos me body and mind r 2 worn out 2 carry on having lived a relatively worthwhile life and having stayed true 2 the things I believe... don't ask 2 much don't think.. but in end however, how I meet me end is me kismet.. I am however pretty sure I will not be meeting ne maker.. will b shock of me death if I do... tho wud b nice 2 c me dad again and have gud ole chinwag..;).

I am aware Allah is not the name of God... and that God is not the name of the Christian or Jewish God, but whether or not u accept the God of Islam, Christianity or Judaism is unimportant to me, but I think the overwhelming majority of people of the three faiths would disagree wivya just a smidge... what the true name of God is, any god, is unimportant 2 me since I am not a believer ..

My criticism of the military is and always has been of the institution and the reason it exists not, with some exceptions, the individuals who serve. People believe what they will and many, maybe even most join up for what they believe is defend of king (or queen) and country... an expression, Pepper, no more. Some to defend the people (not quite the same thing as king and country) Many however join for other reasons, some of necessity 2 earn a crust, some (in many countries still) through conscription, and some because they are nasty bastards with a blood lust, wanna act the big man or out of h8.. patriotism tends 2 breed h8 and can be easily manipulated by the ruling elites 2 breed h8 from almost the day people are born.. sad fact of life. I love my country but I am no patriot... I do not love the state or the political entities in which I was born.. but I do love the land, the flora and fauna, the people, even tho I disagree with probaby most of them on many things.. I love Europe in precisely the same way and the planet on which I live. I am prepared to die for them but not to kill..:eek2:

Political entities are supposed to b the servants of the people not the other way around.. sadly powerful people have turned that on its head and we are expected to serve them and their interests through serving the state out of love of country.. or religion or cause...

I make no blanket judgement of the military.. my judgement is on the reason for its existence which is not in my view what governments, politicians, generals and the media tell us.. it is on those politicians, goverments, generals and media which mislead us.. but I love life.. my own and that of others. That is why I believe as I do... and believing that no matter what happens to me gives me no right to harm or take the life of another.. killing begats killing and always has... and will again... until the day humanity itself begins to respect itself and the world in which it lives and realises the killing of others is not only pointless and wrong, but it solves nothing...:)

[bigal5050]

yes it's big al lol

[darkeyes]

Watched a documentary on telly 'bout u... an allosaurus called Big Al.. gud 2 kno u survived the gr8 extinction..:):tongue:

[pepperjack]

The life of a pacifist involves risk.. sad fact of life, and in the case of the Mahatma among others, often a vry unpleasantand violent death. Nope.. it isn't how I wish 2 exit this world although both Kate and me older daughter 2 name but 2 would probably disagree with me.. me wish is 2 b lickle ole lady when me clogs pop and die in same house me dad's mum did and in same way.. in me sleep cos me body and mind r 2 worn out 2 carry on having lived a relatively worthwhile life and having stayed true 2 the things I believe... don't ask 2 much don't think.. but in end however, how I meet me end is me kismet.. I am however pretty sure I will not be meeting ne maker.. will b shock of me death if I do... tho wud b nice 2 c me dad again and have gud ole chinwag..;).

I am aware Allah is not the name of God... and that God is not the name of the Christian or Jewish God, but whether or not u accept the God of Islam, Christianity or Judaism is unimportant to me, but I think the overwhelming majority of people of the three faiths would disagree wivya just a smidge... what the true name of God is, any god, is unimportant 2 me since I am not a believer ..

My criticism of the military is and always has been of the institution and the reason it exists not, with some exceptions, the individuals who serve. People believe what they will and many, maybe even most join up for what they believe is defend of king (or queen) and country... an expression, Pepper, no more. Some to defend the people (not quite the same thing as king and country) Many however join for other reasons, some of necessity 2 earn a crust, some (in many countries still) through conscription, and some because they are nasty bastards with a blood lust, wanna act the big man or out of h8.. patriotism tends 2 breed h8 and can be easily manipulated by the ruling elites 2 breed h8 from almost the day people are born.. sad fact of life. I love my country but I am no patriot... I do not love the state or the political entities in which I was born.. but I do love the land, the flora and fauna, the people, even tho I disagree with probaby most of them on many things.. I love Europe in precisely the same way and the planet on which I live. I am prepared to die for them but not to kill..:eek2:

Political entities are supposed to b the servants of the people not the other way around.. sadly powerful people have turned that on its head and we are expected to serve them and their interests through serving the state out of love of country.. or religion or cause...

I make no blanket judgement of the military.. my judgement is on the reason for its existence which is not in my view what governments, politicians, generals and the media tell us.. it is on those politicians, goverments, generals and media which mislead us.. but I love life.. my own and that of others. That is why I believe as I do... and believing that no matter what happens to me gives me no right to harm or take the life of another.. killing begats killing and always has... and will again... until the day humanity itself begins to respect itself and the world in which it lives and realises the killing of others is not only pointless and wrong, but it solves nothing...:)

Well, there will never be a utopia on this planet, Dark. The military and the political power structures which exploit the masses are here to stay. I really hope you get to meet your dad in that afterlife which I know is there.;) Speaking of killing, stumbled onto this eye-opening, disturbing documentary this morning: http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2015/04/24/cnns-fareed-zakaria-hosts-blindsided-how-isis-shook-the-world-for-monday-april-27/

[darkeyes]

U have no idea how much I want 2 sit down huggle and have natter wiv me dad.. 2 c him bounce Kit on his knee.. won't happen but It wud b luffly.. but ta for the luffly thought, Pepper.. u may b a reactionary ole bugger but ur really quite a nice 1 in lotsa ways..:)

As 2 ther never being a utopia, u may b right... but do we have 2 run full pelt in2 an awful distopia? Whether a utopia occurs or not is not relevant.. what human beings should b doing us striving to achieve 1 and drag us at the very least out the gravitational pull of the distopic vision and dreams of those buggers who would keep humanity enslaved. Utopia may or may not ever be achieved, but at the very least people should reach for it and struggle 2 make our world a far better place than it is now... I do every day of my life.

I dont know if a military will always be required.. I have such great hopes for world peace even now and do believe it possible the day will come when humanity, inside or outside of that utopia of which I dream, will have no need of a military and will be able to live in peace and harmony. Whether or not humanity requires political power structures of 1 thing I am certain...the ones we have now are grossly inadequate and have been found wanting... the socio-economic system we live with now also... I firmly believe they cannot and will not survive as we know them.. nothing is forever.. in time we shall see something better but I have no doubt there will be many mistakes made and there will be even more bumps in the road.. but we will get there assuming humanity doesn't do us all in beforehand.:eek2:

[pepperjack]

U have no idea how much I want 2 sit down huggle and have natter wiv me dad.. 2 c him bounce Kit on his knee.. won't happen but It wud b luffly.. but ta for the luffly thought, Pepper.. u may b a reactionary ole bugger but ur really quite a nice 1 in lotsa ways..:)

As 2 ther never being a utopia, u may b right... but do we have 2 run full pelt in2 an awful distopia? Whether a utopia occurs or not is not relevant.. what human beings should b doing us striving to achieve 1 and drag us at the very least out the gravitational pull of the distopic vision and dreams of those buggers who would keep humanity enslaved. Utopia may or may not ever be achieved, but at the very least people should reach for it and struggle 2 make our world a far better place than it is now... I do every day of my life.

I dont know if a military will always be required.. I have such great hopes for world peace even now and do believe it possible the day will come when humanity, inside or outside of that utopia of which I dream, will have no need of a military and will be able to live in peace and harmony. Whether or not humanity requires political power structures of 1 thing I am certain...the ones we have now are grossly inadequate and have been found wanting... the socio-economic system we live with now also... I firmly believe they cannot and will not survive as we know them.. nothing is forever.. in time we shall see something better but I have no doubt there will be many mistakes made and there will be even more bumps in the road.. but we will get there assuming humanity doesn't do us all in beforehand.:eek2:


We all resist change at one time or another Dark, even if it's for the better. Just ingrained in human nature. But I've always been very industrious in the workplace which makes me a progressive reactionary, does it not?;)

[darkeyes]

We all resist change at one time or another Dark, even if it's for the better. Just ingrained in human nature. But I've always been very industrious in the workplace which makes me a progressive reactionary, does it not?;)
Hmmm... not sure 'bout that, Pep.. hard working reactionary..depends how we work wetha we r progressive and how we view it. Also depends how we look at the world, I think. ;) But as my Rector keeps on at me about, one person's revolutionary is another's dinosaur.. :tongue::love87:

[Sigstache]

Amen, guy! Happy 4th to you!:thumbu:

[charles-smythe]

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/photo/gay-pride-high-res-stock-photography/102198439
…as a vet I’m mildly annoyed…people died for the original picture…one was Ira Hayes I believe…