Ignorance as a Virtue?

[tenni]

“… ignorance has started to become not only less of a handicap, but a point of pride. In the face of expertise and facts, being belligerently ignorant—and offended that anyone dare suggest ignorance is less desirable than knowledge—has become the go-to position for many conservative politicians and pundits. Sadly, it’s a strategy that’s working, making it harder every day for liberals to argue the value of evidence and reason over wishful thinking and unblinking prejudice.”
The article goes on to give evidence on such issues as abortion and ignorance overruling logic and science.

http://www.salon.com/2014/06/13/beyond_the_war_on_science_why_the_right_embraces_i gnorance_as_a_virtue_partner/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow


Does ignorance win as a virtue when it comes to sexuality?


Have you witnessed people proudly dismiss bisexuality as non existent?


Are you aware of other sexual issues where ignorance is presented with pride?

[elian]

Ok so when I think of ignorance I think of lack of knowledge, not necessarily an arrogant attitude.

I don't think ignorance is a virtue when it comes to sexuality, I think the more you can know about sexuality, relationships, attitudes, physiology, psychology - the better...but most of us are not experts in all of those areas so I have to forgive myself and others when we fall short. Figure that even the most "intelligent" person still has about just as equal a chance of going home alone on a Saturday night.

I won't say that people proudly dismiss bisexuality, but that some people have strong feelings about it.. I won't say that every gay or straight person dismisses bisexuality as out of hand either - many of them have had direct experience with it. People can only really relate to others through their own experience, so if there was a guy who (for example) let himself get blown by another guy when he was younger, but now is only interested in females he may view the world through that lens of experience... He was a horny teen, but he wouldn't consider a serious relationship with children outside of a traditional marriage - and he may figure that is the way other guys think too.

The only reason I know any different is because for years I have had very real, loving or lustful (or both) feelings of wanting to be with men rather than alone - or with men and women if the hormones are right. I am sure that a good percentage of straight or gay people probably don't even have the feelings I have exactly the same way I experience them.

HIV? Umm, yeah - just about everything here in Puritan America - we still treat both sex and religion as if we were in the 6th grade..say the word "peenis!" and see how many grown men and women smile or giggle - just try it..

There are many things where science may prove something completely the opposite and people will still hold to their beliefs. People guard faith especially - I mean if you strip away another person's worldview there are a lot of times they will have a nervous breakdown - we are wired a certain way and change is uncomfortable.

People are sort of a lot like onions - there may be a hard shell on the outside, but as you peel away the layers you often will find a lot of tender, vulnerableness - that's not necessarily bad I think.

Bear in mind that I think it can go to the extreme the other way as well - I know plenty of "smart" analytical folks who can "reason" and justify their way to any conclusion that they want to.

The bottom line is, you either love people or you don't - or maybe you love the person, but disagree with their actions...I dunno.

The thing that is easy to forget while posting on this board is that sex is only one potential part of a whole, healthy life. We have relationships of all sorts with others regardless of whether sexuality is involved or not.

[pole_smoker]

Tenni, Do you take all opinion/editorals posted on salon and other sites like it as being completely factual?

The opinion/editorial in the link has nothing to do with bisexuality.

You have a professional victim stance about bisexuality, or a "bisexuals v.s. everyone else" mentality, and the majority of bisexual people do not have this about our sexuality.

[JaredT77]

Tenni, Do you take all opinion/editorals posted on salon and other sites like it as being completely factual?

The opinion/editorial in the link has nothing to do with bisexuality.

You have a professional victim stance about bisexuality, or a "bisexuals v.s. everyone else" mentality, and the majority of bisexual people do not have this about our sexuality.

Agreed.

[tenni]

Am I reading some examples of ignorance as a virtue? lol

I agree with Elian that as far as sexuality and other social issues such as abortion, scientific research, the more knowledge is usually better than less. One issue is the censorship of factual knowledge and replacing it with false facts or opinion based on ignorance.

In Canada, the present Conservative government has restricted the release of scientific research results based on facts via scientific journals until it goes through political clearance. It has been so bad that international scientific groups have asked the Canadian government to stop censoring Canadian research. Elian, you are correct that most of us are not experts. We are not the scientific researchers. We can only judge what we personally experience or can find ourselves. In today's world, censorship of such research with facts can be found. When a government refuses to release research that it doesn't agree with we all suffer to some extent. Then we have the issue of arguing that scientific research is just so much nonsense and academia not worth accepting.(supporting ignorance and rejecting research methods used by science) The first time that I heard of this was in the Bush government restricting the release of scientific research.

Some do seem to take pride in their ignorance and present such ignorance with confidence. They go so far as to deny their ignorance and present their ignorance as facts.

I'm not sure if Canadians are as puritan as you describe the US but our present government would like to silence scientific facts and twist ideas for their own agenda.

Canadians as a whole would not let the government turn back such social issues as same sex marriage. The Conservatives started to try at the beginning of their reign but soon realized that the game was over on trying to deceive the public about same sex marriage. Canadians had gone through a decade of discussion on sexuality and equality issues. Ignorance had been presented during those discussions as the "truth" but Canadians valued the Charter rights sufficiently that the Conservative government could not turn back the factual and ideological knowledge. We still read such ignorance being presented as 'facts" why same sex marriage should not be permitted in some US states. I see some such behaviour on this site....ignorance presented with false pride as factual.

Keeping the public ignorant and taking pride in rejecting science and logical thought is destructive for societies. Encouraging people to take pride in ignorance over science and research will not help progress enlightenment about sexuality or other social issues such as abortion. Propagating ideas that your society is a free society when research indicates that the US and Canada to some degree are no longer democracies helps a government keep the people ignorant and proud to be ignorant rather than capable of reasoning. The people no longer support thoughtful analytical research but support myths and ignorance. Dumbing down via ignorance and placing such ignorance as a virtue is sad and a dangerous trend.

[JaredT77]

Am I reading some examples of ignorance as a virtue? lol


We're not the ones quoting garbage and tabloid filth. We're happy to be bisexual and not playing the "victim" because "monosexual" people don't agree if we enjoy having sex with both genders. You call it "ignorance" but we call it reality. At least both of us are not ignorant to sexually transmitted diseases either.

[tenni]

Here is an example of the Canadian Conservative government "silencing" scientist on a issue connected to the environment. The Cons do not give a hoot about Climate Change, damaging the environment if it means money for their rich capitalist friends. This is how they deal with scientific research that goes against their wishes. Keep the people ignorant and argue against research that goes against your political agenda.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/capt-trevor-greene/science-cuts-canada_b_4534729.html

[pole_smoker]

Tenni this isn't about Canada, or global warming. Or whatever else you're ranting on about that has nothing to do with the topic you posted about.

[Realist]

I was thinking....if you're ignorant, you wouldn't know you're ignorant!

I've often heard, "Ignorance is bliss"..............so maybe you're better off without the burden of intelligence!"

I know, I'm having a weird day.

[tenni]

I was thinking....if you're ignorant, you wouldn't know you're ignorant!

I've often heard, "Ignorance is bliss"..............so maybe you're better off without the burden of intelligence!"

I know, I'm having a weird day.

I think that Realist actually raises an important part of this issue.

Those who are ignorant may see that as bliss and all the while their freedoms, safety and security may be manipulated away from them. You may shout your country's name with pride and feel free by doing so. You may believe that you are free in your ignorance of reality of manipulation. Harper uses Bush's strategies. Bush and Cheney managed to lie and manipulate the US people using censorship of the facts. The rest of the world knew the facts withheld by the US government. The rest of the world made documentaries where US newspeople told how they had been censored. They were never shown in the US. Only now are some US people being forced by factual disclosure that they were manipulated and kept ignorant. There is a German movement preparing to charge Bush Cheney(in particular) with crimes against humanity. Many in the US are still ignorant of the war crimes or in denial. It does seem that people are really passive about subtle loss of freedom.

I don't think that it is intelligence that is a negative as a lack of awareness. It may take an intelligent mind to examine the facts and extra diligence using your intelligence if government etc. is intentionally keeping you ignorant. People are being manipulated to think that science and intelligence are lies and don't need to be paid attention to. I don't understand wilful pride in being in denial of scientific facts. Pride in lack of education seems to be another connecting dot in this behaviour. It has been said that the first to be killed off by dictators are the intelligencia in universities and the arts..discredit them or remove them. This process was used in the Chinese Cultural Revolution a few decades ago.

Bringing this ignorance is a virtue attitude back to sexuality it seems that there are people who take pride in denying others their sexual freedom. They seem to not want to know. They seem not to be able to connect the dots that denial of sexual freedom and choice may impact them. Intelligence can drive some to want to know..to want to analyze. The bigots scream the loudest and deny any validity to such approaches.

[Ja&Ve]

In sexuality, ignorance can can quite literally kill you.

so no, I never desire nor recommend sexual ignorance to anyone.

[nomorenomore]

Interesting questions and discussion. It is true that a lot of truth is censored here in America. Bush/Cheney were extremely guilty of this where they ordered our scientist to disavow Global Warming when they went to a conference in Europe, despite their having brought the issue to the front. The government also has refused to dealve into the questions regarding GMOs, particulary the research that was done in Europe regarding the kill gene in GMO plants. The kill gene is the one that neuters the crop so that you have to go back and buy new seed every year, ensuring a profit stream. A European study found that after five generations, the mice could no longer breed. Yet, the government still pushes that stuff as saving the future of food. So there is a lot of censorship with regards to many things.

Now, before some get their panties in a twist because of being "off topic",. let me tackle the original questions:
Does ignorance win as a virtue when it comes to sexuality?
For many absolutely, they deny the science as bogus because it doesn't conform to their beliefs. Beliefs usually garnered by the pick and choose Christians to condemn others. While they choose a Bible passage to show how gays are forbidden in the Bible, they skip over the other lines that say if you eat shrimp you are an abomination, that bacon cheeseburger, you should be stoned. That polyester/cotton blend, stoned. Your wife is wearing slacks, take her to the edge of town and stone her. When you point those out, even showing them the words in the Bible, they say those don't count. Um, so the only ones that do count is the one that supports your hate?

Now, on a personal note, I was totally unaware of bisexuals until about fifteen years ago. I thought it was black or white, straight or gay. I was so afraid of being labeled gay and being ostracized by family and friends, that I hid my interest in men. Even to the point that I always skipped gym in high school to avoid getting caught looking. Now, I am aware, but unable to do anything since I am married. As we have seen here, that means, no sex ever again, since my wife is no longer interested. So in a way, if I had not known that it was okay to like both men and women, it would have been less frustrating. So sometimes, ignorance might be bliss.
Have you witnessed people proudly dismiss bisexuality as non existent?
Oh absolutely, even from some gays. They come out and say that you are really gay, but just not accepting it. We don't even have to question the stance of Bible thumpers. They don't even believe that gays exist. They think they can cure you.

Are you aware of other sexual issues where ignorance is presented with pride?
Absolutely, the whole transgendered community. I was involved with a group that dealt with transgendered issues and some of the stories were horrifying. The way humans treat people who are different. I knew a young person who was transgendered when I was in high school. The daily abuse that they suffered was atrocious. Despite gender dysphoria being listed in the DSM-IV, there are many who will not accept that sometimes nature screws up and that whether it is a neo-natal issue or just a fluke, sometimes people are born with physical bodies different than what their mind believes they should be. Once again, it comes down to being different, so it becomes abhorrent. Interestingly, we called Native Americans savages, yet their society was quite advanced and adaptable. The Lakota had a term for it, Winyanktehca, or Winkte. Two -spirits. They often were seen as powerful medicine people. Hell of a lot more acceptance than our society who don't know the difference between transgendered and transvestite and plops them all in the same bucket. I have studied issues like these for a good part of my life. I believe that in our zeal to pigeon-hole everyone into neat little boxes, we prefer black and white as it is easily labeled. Yet, as we see with bisexuals, it is a sliding scale. One that can shift also. I would like to do a study one day to see if gender is also a sliding scale. Is that why some like to cross-dress, but yet don't want to be a woman? Would that equate to someone who is bi-curious but never acted upon it? Why there are effeminate men and masculine women? Once again, not to pigeon-hole, but to destroy the pigeon-holes and show that the world is not black and white.