Gender Fluid/Gender Queer, Bois, CD/TV, and Transgender MtF

[newlynymphos]

Well, I have come to the realization I am Gender Fluid and Pansexual. Even Hypersexual! I just love skin, sex, and the human form! I also enjoy wearing women's clothing publicly even when not dressed passably female! And the more femme I feel/look, the more submissive I become :)

[marine20]

too bad you are not closer . I would love to fuck you and your wife!!

[pole_smoker]

Do you ever think you'll get a sex change? Pansexual is just another term for being bisexual.

[tenni]

There is a difference between bisexuals and pansexuals.

A variety of argument may be put forward (and it may happen here).

The major difference is that Bisexuals are not attracted to inter sexed, transexuals, third gender. Bisexuals are attracted to CIS male and CIS female sexually and or romantically. Pansexuals are sexually and or romantically attracted to intersex, third gender, transexuals as well as CIS male and CIS female.

Good luck to you in your search newlynymphos.

http://www.differencebetween.net/science/nature/difference-between-bi-sexual-and-pan-sexual/

[pole_smoker]

There is a difference between bisexuals and pansexuals.

A variety of argument may be put forward (and it may happen here).

The major difference is that Bisexuals are not attracted to inter sexed, transexuals, third gender. Bisexuals are attracted to CIS male and CIS female sexually and or romantically. Pansexuals are sexually and or romantically attracted to intersex, third gender, transexuals as well as CIS male and CIS female.

Good luck to you in your search newlynymphos.

http://www.differencebetween.net/science/nature/difference-between-bi-sexual-and-pan-sexual/
Pansexual is just another term for bisexuality.

There are bisexuals who are attracted to intersex/hermphrodites, and all sort of trans people.

"CIS" is just a made up term by trans people who use it as a slur towards people who are not trans.

The worst are the Trans people who complain about being "cissed" and not recognized as being Trans; but then want to claim that they're the female or male gender completely and are a real woman, or man.

The way the word "cis" is used now, online at least, is to make people feel guilty for their cis-gender privilege which nobody actually does.

People who use the term cis are people who just sit around and waste so much time making every person in existence out to be a victim, and the way they go about doing it is completely bizarre. The terms they're grabbing and using are ridiculous, and there are actual so-called intellectuals concocting it for them. Someone on another site I go to brilliantly said that many of these trans-women, and they are mostly trans-women, have taken their first feminist studies course and now think they're enlightened beyond belief.

"cisgender" is a label invented by the Trans Platoon of the Social Justice Warrior Army and queer theory academics in their ivory towers so they can "other" normal people. It's not a real word, and its absolutely superfluous since "normal" can be used in its place with the added benefit of not intentionally confusing the listener.

I will never acknowledge the "cis" bullshit. What a lame ass PC ivory tower concoction.Cis? Please. I am not trans. You are. Grow up. I don't need some new made up word to demark me as non trans. I know the latin shit about the origins. It is just not needed. I am a bisexual man. There are some trans bisexual women, and trans bisexual men. Simple enough. Done and done.


Objecting to the ridiculous "cisgender" crap has nothing to do with anyone's civil rights, pro or con.
It's a stupid, manufactured label for people who don't need or want it.

Using 'cis' as a term like male, female, transgendered/transvestite, bisexual, gay, lesbian, or hetero/straight will never happen.

Do trans people really expect people to identify themselves as cis for their convenience? Then you have lots of trans people who use 'cis' as a slur, and want to identify as a the opposite gender-yet get enraged when someone doesn't point out that they're trans; but if you point out that they are trans then you're being "transphobic" and showing "bigotry and cis-gender privilege." :rolleyes:

If someone wants to surgically alter themselves to look like the opposite gender, that's their business. However, I just think it's ridiculous that we are expected to refer to a lipstick-and-foundation-wearing man or a woman with a crew cut as "ze", etc. as if we did not have enough labels already.

For a group who will rage and melt if you use an incorrectly gendered pronoun, trans people who are obsessed with using the terms like, 'cis', 'genderqueer', and pointless gender neutral pronouns, sure do love to label everything and everyone else.

The odd thing is that a lot of MTFs take on the style of a stripper or hooker when they transition, and do not look like an ordinary woman. The guy in my office who transitioned came back to work after surgery with a pair of D-cups, dressed like a prostitute/stripper with way too much makeup on--she looked like a Frederick's of Hollywood drawing, not like a real woman.

[elian]

(gives pole_smoker a hugs)

We are who we are, in that you harm none, do what you will.

[elian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3rr4CEHjOk

[newlynymphos]

I am what and who I am! And guess what? I enjoy looking like a hooker/slut! Especially since most places I dress for, are clubs, private parties, and strip clubs! I prefer belly shirts, tight pants, micro shorts, mini skirts. I dress like the women I want to be! Is it regular work appropriate? Hell no! I dress as a guy at work (in low rise girls jeans!). I'm not trans, in the fact I'm making no transition! I don't mind being called trans publicly, as I know the public sees me one of three ways: male, female, and Trans/CD (I take the trans as a compliment. CD I don't as it suggests I'm not passable enough. And I am more "queer" when wearing girly clothes and not passing. Pretty simple.

So far as bi vs pan. Bi is two, by definition! You like men and women. Period. Nothing in the middle. Sorry, if you're attracted to people like me, trans people, and intersexed people, you are pansexual. Period!

[pole_smoker]

I am what and who I am! And guess what? I enjoy looking like a hooker/slut! Especially since most places I dress for, are clubs, private parties, and strip clubs! I prefer belly shirts, tight pants, micro shorts, mini skirts. I dress like the women I want to be! Is it regular work appropriate? Hell no! I dress as a guy at work (in low rise girls jeans!). I'm not trans, in the fact I'm making no transition! I don't mind being called trans publicly, as I know the public sees me one of three ways: male, female, and Trans/CD (I take the trans as a compliment. CD I don't as it suggests I'm not passable enough. And I am more "queer" when wearing girly clothes and not passing. Pretty simple.

So far as bi vs pan. Bi is two, by definition! You like men and women. Period. Nothing in the middle. Sorry, if you're attracted to people like me, trans people, and intersexed people, you are pansexual. Period!
You're a garden variety cross-dresser/transvestite-which is actually pretty common on this site.

LOL keep telling yourself that pansexuality is not the same thing as bisexuality. Those of us who are intelligent, can think for ourselves, and understand human sexuality know that pansexuality is simply nothing but another trendy term for being bisexual.


Even with intersex/hermaprhodite individuals, they are still categorized by chromosomal makeup and are either male or female despite having the genitals of both genders.


Bisexuality refers to having attraction to more than one gender. It is a broad term which may include the following groups and more:
●● People who see themselves as attracted to ‘both men and women’.
●● People who are mostly attracted to one gender but recognize this is not exclusive.
●● People who experience their sexual identities as fluid and changeable over time.
●● People who see their attraction as ‘regardless of gender’ (other aspects are more important in determining who they are attracted to).
●● People who dispute the idea that there are only two genders and that people are attracted to one, the other, or both.


I have seen pansexual used as a term to describe people who are into sexual things that are illegal.

[bisocialnudist]

Bisexual is an umbrella term made up lots of difierent ways it presents itself. The whole pansexual is different than bisexual argument is a case of people trying to erase our bisexual identity by changing who we believe we are. Pansexuals may choose to call themselves pansexual but this should never be at the expense of redefining who bisexuals are or are not attracted to because that is an insidious form of bi erasure. When pansexuals tell me their definition of pansexual it is often exactly the same as my and thousands of others definition of bisexuals. I am bisexual and consider pansexual simply a sub category or type of bisexual its not instead of. I say Tomato they say Tomato.

For those with the bi is binary argument that was dismissed a long time ago. The bi in bisexual refers to my gender and "other genders" allowing for a complete spectrum, I happen to identify as bigender and bisexual in addition I would meet most peoples definition of pansexual but since bisexual covers it all I retain the bisexual identity. . Robyn Ochs a leading bisexual spokesperson uses this widely accepted definition DEFINITION OF BISEXUALITY: “I call myself bisexual because I acknowledge that I have in myself the potential to be attracted – romantically and/or sexually – to people of more than one sex and/or gender, not necessarily at the same time, not necessarily in the same way, and not necessarily to the same degree.”

[Melody Dean]

Robyn Ochs a leading bisexual spokesperson uses this widely accepted definition DEFINITION OF BISEXUALITY: “I call myself bisexual because I acknowledge that I have in myself the potential to be attracted – romantically and/or sexually – to people of more than one sex and/or gender, not necessarily at the same time, not necessarily in the same way, and not necessarily to the same degree.”

I love that quote!

[Realist]

Never felt I had to define myself, or swear a label, but the above description suits me.

I could even shorten that short description to: I love who I love and the gender really isn't a factor.

[pole_smoker]

Bisexual is an umbrella term made up lots of difierent ways it presents itself. The whole pansexual is different than bisexual argument is a case of people trying to erase our bisexual identity by changing who we believe we are. Pansexuals may choose to call themselves pansexual but this should never be at the expense of redefining who bisexuals are or are not attracted to because that is an insidious form of bi erasure. When pansexuals tell me their definition of pansexual it is often exactly the same as my and thousands of others definition of bisexuals. I am bisexual and consider pansexual simply a sub category or type of bisexual its not instead of. I say Tomato they say Tomato.

For those with the bi is binary argument that was dismissed a long time ago. The bi in bisexual refers to my gender and "other genders" allowing for a complete spectrum, I happen to identify as bigender and bisexual in addition I would meet most peoples definition of pansexual but since bisexual covers it all I retain the bisexual identity. . Robyn Ochs a leading bisexual spokesperson uses this widely accepted definition DEFINITION OF BISEXUALITY: “I call myself bisexual because I acknowledge that I have in myself the potential to be attracted – romantically and/or sexually – to people of more than one sex and/or gender, not necessarily at the same time, not necessarily in the same way, and not necessarily to the same degree.”
Exactly.

Bisexuality has always included attraction to people who are trans, or who identify as something else.

Hypersexuality just means someone is horny, or a sex driven hedonist.


Trans people are not a 3rd gender at all, and even if they only transition partially or all the way they're still not a "3rd gender" as they're either a transman, or transwoman.

[elian]

This site is generally very open, therefore it does not surprise me, nor am I offended that people of many different "sexualities" post here about their sexual and relationship experience.

The way we come to understand people "not like us" is to actually engage in (hopefully) positive discussion about different experiences.

Life is full of contrast, if it were not then nothing would change and as a species we would probably atrophy.

[elian]

You mean like this?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oicU7-rmY0g

Sorry, but my friend "Roxy" shared this song with me .. I think it's funny.


I am what and who I am! And guess what? I enjoy looking like a hooker/slut! Especially since most places I dress for, are clubs, private parties, and strip clubs! I prefer belly shirts, tight pants, micro shorts, mini skirts. I dress like the women I want to be! Is it regular work appropriate? Hell no! I dress as a guy at work (in low rise girls jeans!). I'm not trans, in the fact I'm making no transition! I don't mind being called trans publicly, as I know the public sees me one of three ways: male, female, and Trans/CD (I take the trans as a compliment. CD I don't as it suggests I'm not passable enough. And I am more "queer" when wearing girly clothes and not passing. Pretty simple.

So far as bi vs pan. Bi is two, by definition! You like men and women. Period. Nothing in the middle. Sorry, if you're attracted to people like me, trans people, and intersexed people, you are pansexual. Period!

[tenni]

Bisexual is an umbrella term made up lots of difierent ways it presents itself. The whole pansexual is different than bisexual argument is a case of people trying to erase our bisexual identity by changing who we believe we are. Pansexuals may choose to call themselves pansexual but this should never be at the expense of redefining who bisexuals are or are not attracted to because that is an insidious form of bi erasure. When pansexuals tell me their definition of pansexual it is often exactly the same as my and thousands of others definition of bisexuals. I am bisexual and consider pansexual simply a sub category or type of bisexual its not instead of. I say Tomato they say Tomato.

For those with the bi is binary argument that was dismissed a long time ago. The bi in bisexual refers to my gender and "other genders" allowing for a complete spectrum, I happen to identify as bigender and bisexual in addition I would meet most peoples definition of pansexual but since bisexual covers it all I retain the bisexual identity. . Robyn Ochs a leading bisexual spokesperson uses this widely accepted definition DEFINITION OF BISEXUALITY: “I call myself bisexual because I acknowledge that I have in myself the potential to be attracted – romantically and/or sexually – to people of more than one sex and/or gender, not necessarily at the same time, not necessarily in the same way, and not necessarily to the same degree.”

Bisexuality may be an umbrella word but presently it has a wide range. It is not that long ago that in many parts of the world where there were two sexualities: heterosexual and homosexual. There was no bisexuality. You were one or the other. There were two genders male and female. Bisexuality is now accepted as the alternative to monosexuality (heterosexual or homosexual). The fact that some who fell as neither hetero or homo sexual and sexually and or emotionally attracted to those who do not fall under the two more traditional genders now have a category called pansexual should be accepted. As a bisexual man I am not attracted to those who fall between the two traditional genders. I'm bisexual and both physically and emotionally attracted to cismen and ciswomen. Those who are not pansexual in the gender or attraction should be accepted just as those of us who call ourselves bisexual and are attracted to cis men and cis women.

[pole_smoker]

It is not that long ago that in many parts of the world where there were two sexualities: heterosexual and homosexual. There was no bisexuality. You were one or the other. There were two genders male and female. Bisexuality is now accepted as the alternative to monosexuality (heterosexual or homosexual). The fact that some who fell as neither hetero or homo sexual and sexually and or emotionally attracted to those who do not fall under the two more traditional genders now have a category called pansexual should be accepted. As a bisexual man I am not attracted to those who fall between the two traditional genders. I'm bisexual and both physically and emotionally attracted to cismen and ciswomen. Those who are not pansexual in the gender or attraction should be accepted just as those of us who call ourselves bisexual and are attracted to cis men and cis women.
Someone obvious did not pay attention, identify as bisexual, or travel outside of North America during the sexual revolution.

What you're claiming about how bisexuality is now "new" in most parts of the world, or not known about in cultures outside of Western culture is simply not true. The same goes for how other cultures did not recognize Transgender people, or didn't realize that there are people who are transvestites who put on the clothing of the opposite gender and pretend to be that gender but how these people did not want a sex change if such elective cosmetic surgery were available to them.

Did you not read the posts that myself and bisocialnudist posted? What's with all the pointless PC 'cis' nonsense? Stop trying to shove that nonsense down our throats as the silly academic theorist terms of "pansexual" and "cis" are not going to be accepted as actual terms outside of whiny PC people on tumblr, and academics who made up those terms because they have too much time on their hands.

I refuse to identify as a "cis man." I am a man, I don't need a qualification on it to appease a very tiny percent of the population, or not hurt someone's feelings because they're trans and get all butthurt that most people are not trans. The sexual orientations gay/lesbian, heterosexual, and bisexual are something pretty much everyone can relate to. The same goes for the genders male or female as someone's either genetically male or female despite how much elective cosmetic surgery they get done, and if they get a sex change then they're either a transman or transwoman, or if they have sexual organs from both genders which is again very rare they're a hermaprodite/intersex but would be either genetically either male or female, and a lot of people who are hermaprodites/intersex do get elective cosmetic surgery and identify as the sex/gender that they are genetically.

Pansexual is nothing but another trendy term for being bisexual. The way people who are bisexual use the term pansexual the way OP and Tenni are is not the correct way as people who really are sexually attracted to things besides people are into illegal sex, or have sex or sexual attraction to objects.


See this link here:
http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/US/coleman771.htm



prison psychiatric profile found Coleman, a ninth grade dropout with an IQ on the lower edge of normal, to be ''a pansexual willing to have intercourse with any object, women, men, children, whatever.''

Get ready folks. On the horizon are people claiming they're 'trans-species', as in a wolf inside a man's body, and 'trans-racial' as in a black person in a white person's body. :rolleyes:

I wonder if any of these people will ever become aware enough to understand how pathetic they are. Can't be straight, bisexual, or gay/lesbian, male, female, or trans. Now everyone has to proclaim what a special flower they are, and everyone else must walk on eggshells to not offend anyone, ever. Because someone in the room may be a-romantic, or a-sexual, or grey A, trans, or their comments are ableist, or don't take into account that you can't talk about vaginas and women or penises and women in one sentence because there are men with vaginas that are transmen but don't identify with dicks. And some transmen have periods, and some transwomen have penises..ugh Trans people are only 0.30 percent of the population. There seems to be a big contingent of them who have all day to shriek online, though about all the 'cis' nonsense and how everything offends them because it's not politically correct, or someone uses some term or pronoun instead of their made up pointless term.

[tenni]

Another way of examining Och’s wording is that:


Bisexuals are attracted to both sexes or genders sexually and or romantically
You may be attracted to both genders/sexes at the same time ..or different times in your life
You may be attracted to both genders/sexes in the same way …or differently
You may be attracted to both genders/sexes to the same degree or with more intensity towards one gender/sex than the other


I find her wording a bit too vague and wishy washy. I think that the above statement is clearer to me.

Being aware that you may be attracted to each gender differently adds meaning to the fact that you may love females differently than males. Being attracted emotionally to your own gender may be very different than the criteria that you use in your attraction to opposite gender. I often wonder when I read a man say that he is not attracted to other men and just their cock if the guy is using his cross gender attraction scale to determine that he is not attracted to other men. He is using monosexual societal values to define attraction.

[pole_smoker]

Another way of examining Och’s wording is that:


Bisexuals are attracted to both sexes or genders sexually and or romantically
You may be attracted to both genders/sexes at the same time ..or different times in your life
You may be attracted to both genders/sexes in the same way …or differently
You may be attracted to both genders/sexes to the same degree or with more intensity towards one gender/sex than the other


I find her wording a bit too vague and wishy washy. I think that the above statement is clearer to me.

Being aware that you may be attracted to each gender differently adds meaning to the fact that you may love females differently than males. Being attracted emotionally to your own gender may be very different than the criteria that you use in your attraction to opposite gender. I often wonder when I read a man say that he is not attracted to other men and just their cock if the guy is using his cross gender attraction scale to determine that he is not attracted to other men. He is using monosexual societal values to define attraction.
That's not what Och's definition claims, and you're just twisting her definition to suit your own agenda.

[elian]

I assumed that bisexual implies a duality, male, female or both.

There is a whole other terminology that is used to label people who don't want to be labeled by a specific gender...I always figured that "pansexual" was a term that means "sexually fluid without regard to gender" .. you could say well, but there are only two physical genders, but even that is not true because intersexed people do exist.

Does it matter? Am I going to try to apply a -label- to you against your will? No, because I know what that feels like. That is one reason I try to approach my relationships with other people by what is on the inside first, and then if there is mutual interest maybe pursue a physical relationship.

I once took a gender studies course at church, and the one thing you find out pretty quickly, whether you are male or female is that people don't like to be labeled because as soon as you label someone you start limiting their potential. Neither men nor women were very happy with their own stereotypical gender roles. For example a lot of men hated always having to appear strong and in control, and many women disliked the lack of independence.

[pole_smoker]

I assumed that bisexual implies a duality, male, female or both.

There is a whole other terminology that is used to label people who don't want to be labeled by a specific gender...I always figured that "pansexual" was a term that means "sexually fluid without regard to gender" .. you could say well, but there are only two physical genders, but even that is not true because intersexed people do exist.

Does it matter? Am I going to try to apply a -label- to you against your will? No, because I know what that feels like. That is one reason I try to approach my relationships with other people by what is on the inside first, and then if there is mutual interest maybe pursue a physical relationship.

I once took a gender studies course at church, and the one thing you find out pretty quickly, whether you are male or female is that people don't like to be labeled because as soon as you label someone you start limiting their potential. Neither men nor women were very happy with their own stereotypical gender roles. For example a lot of men hated always having to appear strong and in control, and many women disliked the lack of independence.
Nope bisexuality does not mean a duality, or only men and women. It has always included attraction to trans people, cross dressers, transvestites, etc.

Intersex people may have the genitals of both genders; but genetically they are either male or female as everyone is either one or the other. "Pansexual" in the way you are using it as well as how other bisexual people use the term is the incorrect use of the term as myself and others have posted about.

It should be noted that you go to a church that has a majority of LGBT people there, and there are some hetero people who also attend who think it's cool to slum with LGBT people, and take gender studies classes. I'm sure some of these heterosexual people like to think of themselves as "queer", "straight but not narrow", "pansexual" or other silly terms some people like this use when they're simply heterosexual. I have met some hetero people who are like this, and when I came out to them as bisexual and asked them if they were actually sexually attracted to the same gender they balked and admitted that they're really heterosexual and not bisexual, queer, etc. at all.

The majority of men and women in society both lesbian/gay, and bisexual, as well as heterosexual do not care if someone "labels" them as a woman or man, or the sex that they are, and no it does not limit their potential or do anything that silly gender theorists and gender studies academics in their ivory towers claim it does.

[elian]

No I believe the majority of people who attend my (specific) church are straight, if I had to make a rough guess maybe 15-20% are lesbian or gay..it's harder to pick out the bisexual folks who are not as obvious, as far as I know there are no transgendered people..

Gender discrimination is just as real as any other form, it isn't as obvious to some people but it is still there. I'm not saying that's an excuse for someone to surrender to being a victim - or that all people should be a martyr for the cause ..

As someone who knows what it feels like to be discriminated against for who they love I have to at least acknowledge the plight of others who are discriminated against for an innate trait.

God gave me the gift of an open mind whether I wanted it or not, whether that makes me feel "comfortable" or not is irrelevant. I've learned that not everything has a black and white answer and sometimes it pays to tolerate a little ambiguity.

Bi = Two ..two sexualities, two genders.. that is my understanding of the term. I can't help it if it's an archaic usage ...but that would explain why other people have used other terms to refer to themselves.

Call yourself whatever you want.


It should be noted that you go to a church that has a majority of LGBT people there, and there are some hetero people who also attend who think it's cool to slum with LGBT people, and take gender studies classes. I'm sure some of these heterosexual people like to think of themselves as "queer", "straight but not narrow", "pansexual" or other silly terms some people like this use when they're simply heterosexual. I have met some hetero people who are like this, and when I came out to them as bisexual and asked them if they were actually sexually attracted to the same gender they balked and admitted that they're really heterosexual and not bisexual, queer, etc. at all.

The majority of men and women in society both lesbian/gay, and bisexual, as well as heterosexual do not care if someone "labels" them as a woman or man, or the sex that they are, and no it does not limit their potential or do anything that silly gender theorists and gender studies academics in their ivory towers claim it does.

[pole_smoker]

Bi = Two ..two sexualities, two genders.. that is my understanding of the term. I can't help it if it's an archaic usage ...but that would explain why other people have used other terms to refer to themselves.

Yeah, that's the wrong and incorrect definition of bisexuality as others have said.

[elian]

What were we arguing about?

I call myself bisexual, I am attracted to the whole person, not necessarily just what is between their legs. I guess I've always taken it for granted that someone is either going to have male or female genitals - therefore I never really had a problem with using the term bisexual.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bisexual

I don't have an issue with transgender people, I used to be passable myself at a younger age.. They actually now have a medical protocol to follow if someone identifies as transgendered that is recognized by several professional medical organizations. Months/years of psychological evaluation to figure out whether the person truly can live as the other gender or not - surgery is one of the -last- steps in that procedure.

It beats the old fashioned, "Well we'll just chop their dick off at the age of 0 and they'll never notice." ...or the self mutilation that others have practiced over being THAT distraught.

I'm not a huge fan of alphabet soup myself, and it might be worth encouraging people to have a thicker skin in this world but some of the stuff you are talking about -is- real to other people, even if you've never experienced it directly.

Of course, I think one of the things we were really talking about was cross-dressing, which is where a person actually isn't terribly distraught with their own gender, but enjoys dressing up as the other gender. I've met some straight folks who cross dress. Seems like more of a fetish than an actual medical diagnosis. I don't really care what people do as long as they are happy and not blatantly, wilfully harming others.

I'm not even sure how we ever got talking about CIS-gendered stuff in the first place.

So anyway, might as well go for it 'nymphos - just remember to play safe.

Learn to laugh at life, you'll live longer and a lot happier.

[Christine76]

Bi Curious,38 Sexual CD Here

[newlynymphos]

Pole-smoker brought up the "cis-gender" stuff. Sorry, he was pissing me, and it's people like him is why I left this forum so long! As closed minded as some straight vanillas! And I have a guy friend that's straight vanilla that accepts me for who/what I am ! So pole smoker can go suck on a tailpipe!

[elian]

I actually love the thought of being androgynous at times, but after puberty it was just a lot easier for me to live with the factory installed equipment.

I had a strong desire to be female growing up, but I think that was mainly due to the very insecure male role models I had around me at the time. They would take out their frustrations on the people around them. If being a drunk, abusive asshole was what it meant to "be a man" then I wanted to be as far away from that as possible.

It also didn't help that I was jealous of how easily women could attract men, or that I thought at the time women had an easier role. I didn't want to be aggressive, because I saw aggressive people hurt others that I loved. Thankfully for me, I have since found some good male mentors that have helped overcome those old stereotypes. All people struggle in one way or another.

Maybe some day the outward characteristics won't matter as much as just being with people..still have a very strong desire to share love - when I have love to share anyway.

[pole_smoker]

Pole-smoker brought up the "cis-gender" stuff. Sorry, he was pissing me, and it's people like him is why I left this forum so long! As closed minded as some straight vanillas! And I have a guy friend that's straight vanilla that accepts me for who/what I am ! So pole smoker can go suck on a tailpipe!
No I'm not close minded. Pansexual is just another term for being bisexual, hypersexual is a term for being horny or having a high libido, and the whole "genderfluid" thing is total BS since you're simply a bisexual male cross dresser/transvestite, and you're not trans at all.

[elian]

Sometimes people who identify as bisexual strictly go by male/female. Whether it's right or wrong, a few folks might consider TG folks as in between genders or having both genders, at least until they transition - I think that is why some people like to use the other terms. A few other cultures identify TG folks as a third gender..and that's not necessarily derogatory either - although unfortunately Western influence often has negative effect.

If you ask an actual TG person I think they would name the gender they identify with. As for the others whose desires and needs are sexual and emotional, what is in a label? People like what they like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IjeCbcZxkk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1EXSrAzaTA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IjeCbcZxkk)

[bopinit]

Isnt it ironic that those who say they hate having labels attached to them...are forever on the lookout for a new label to attach to themselves regarding their sexuality..lol

[pole_smoker]

Isnt it ironic that those who say they hate having labels attached to them...are forever on the lookout for a new label to attach to themselves regarding their sexuality..lol
exactly.

[nomorenomore]

Up until I hit my 40's, I was not aware of anything beyond straight or gay. There was no in-between, there was no grey. Neither was I aware of transgendered people, until that tennis star changed sex. I encountered one person who was either just gay, or transgendered, when I was in high school. Not sure which. All I know was he endured daily beatings and the kids all called Arthur, Martha. It was horrible to see him getting beat up, but then again, I had my own challenges at the time. I gave up trying to keep up with the plethora of labels. I think it is unneccessary but if it suits people to have a specific label for themselves, then that is up to them. I don't get wigged out by what someone prefers to refer to themselves.
As to bisexuals or transgendered not being known until relatively lately. Not quite so. As a matter of fact in some customs they were seen as special. The Lakota had a term Winkte that meant Two Spirits. Many of these were seen as powerful medicine people and often worked alongside the tribes healer. Funny, how older societies were more accepting of differences. What you want to call yourself is up to you. i will respect your path.
As to me, I could be attracted to both. I love female form, but not really into pussy, though, I have been known to be good at satisifying women both orally and through intercourse. However, I am more attracted to male appendages. Though, I have always hidden that. It wasn't until I had a breakdown in my 40's and first learned there was a third door that I started to accept that I could be attracted to men also. I was always attracted to men, but after seeing what happened to Arthur, I knew to hide that or suffer the same outcome. So despite being attracted to cocks, I have never been with one out of fear.
I would also say I could have potentially been gender-fluid, but I was unfortunate to have been born into a very stocky body. While my mind would love to be like a woman, my body makes that a non-starter. So I keep a beard on to remind myself that I could never be a woman. Or rather, that if I ever did I would be one butt ugly woman. Though there was a time. I came close. So I do understand about gender dysphoria. I understand the process that a transgendered person has to go through. I also understand why many end up taking their lives. It was a good learning experience that helped me to learn great tolerance for other's paths.

[pole_smoker]

Up until I hit my 40's, I was not aware of anything beyond straight or gay. There was no in-between, there was no grey. Neither was I aware of transgendered people, until that tennis star changed sex. I encountered one person who was either just gay, or transgendered, when I was in high school. Not sure which. All I know was he endured daily beatings and the kids all called Arthur, Martha. It was horrible to see him getting beat up, but then again, I had my own challenges at the time. I gave up trying to keep up with the plethora of labels. I think it is unneccessary but if it suits people to have a specific label for themselves, then that is up to them. I don't get wigged out by what someone prefers to refer to themselves.
As to bisexuals or transgendered not being known until relatively lately. Not quite so. As a matter of fact in some customs they were seen as special. The Lakota had a term Winkte that meant Two Spirits. Many of these were seen as powerful medicine people and often worked alongside the tribes healer. Funny, how older societies were more accepting of differences. What you want to call yourself is up to you. i will respect your path.
As to me, I could be attracted to both. I love female form, but not really into pussy, though, I have been known to be good at satisifying women both orally and through intercourse. However, I am more attracted to male appendages. Though, I have always hidden that. It wasn't until I had a breakdown in my 40's and first learned there was a third door that I started to accept that I could be attracted to men also. I was always attracted to men, but after seeing what happened to Arthur, I knew to hide that or suffer the same outcome. So despite being attracted to cocks, I have never been with one out of fear.
I would also say I could have potentially been gender-fluid, but I was unfortunate to have been born into a very stocky body. While my mind would love to be like a woman, my body makes that a non-starter. So I keep a beard on to remind myself that I could never be a woman. Or rather, that if I ever did I would be one butt ugly woman. Though there was a time. I came close. So I do understand about gender dysphoria. I understand the process that a transgendered person has to go through. I also understand why many end up taking their lives. It was a good learning experience that helped me to learn great tolerance for other's paths.
If you're not sexually attracted to women's vaginas then it sounds as though you're gay. I'm not flaming you but I did once ask my gay male friends who had sex with women if they were bisexual and they said how even though they've had sex with women they're simply not into women's genitals like you posted about, and they highly prefer men and male genitals.

I'm your age and I knew about bisexuality from a young age in the 70s, and so did my partner.

[tenni]

nomore
I find your story resonating with truth. Someone who lived in a special gay focused ghetto may have thought that the entire world was aware of bisexuality. That was not many bisexuals reality though until the past fifteen years or so. The options of straight or gay are very much part of many biguys lives until a few decade ago or less. Similarily, I never knew about the belief in two spirits until a few years ago possibly up to ten but no focus was placed on it.

[pole_smoker]

nomore
I find your story resonating with truth. Someone who lived in a special gay focused ghetto may have thought that the entire world was aware of bisexuality. That was not many bisexuals reality though until the past fifteen years or so. The options of straight or gay are very much part of many biguys lives until a few decade ago or less. Similarily, I never knew about the belief in two spirits until a few years ago possibly up to ten but no focus was placed on it.
Nice assumption that's totally wrong. Neither my partner or myself have ever lived in an LGBT or gay ghetto. We also don't really go to them or travel to them while on vacation because they're very boring.

Weren't you paying attention all through the 70s when David Bowie and other famous people publically came out as bisexual, and pretty much everyone knew about bisexuality and that it's an actual sexual orientation?

People have known about bisexuality for decades, and this includes both gay, bisexual, and heterosexual people. Just because some bisexual men didn't know that they are bisexual up until a few years ago that doesn't mean that most bisexual people or bisexual men didn't know about bisexuality.

But this is yet again your "Poor us!" rants about bisexuality and bisexual men that are not rooted in reality where you blame everything on gays/lesbians, and heterosexuals, all while in your locked closet. ;)

[tenni]

David Bowie was just a performer in my opinion. He performed as Ziggy and yes pushing gender boundaries with his makeup and clothing more so than sexuality. He was not Ziggy. The clothing was not too far off what was being worn by men but different enough to catch the attention of many in his audiences. Bowie was a performer who most understood added elements just beyond the average young person's life. The thread is about gender fluidity and not bisexuality.

No one that I knew called Bowie a fag or was concerned about him. They were more intrigued with what they knew was a performance. Perhaps as an artist I am less concerned about rigidly putting people in sexuality or gender boxes. Bowie also dressed as the Thin White Duke. I could see that he was thin and white skinned dressed in white but I didn't think that he was royalty. Bowie was acting and most of us knew that. Cross dressing was probably more known than bisexuality by the monosexual society that I lived in and many who later identified as bisexual.

Pole's words come across as rigid and inflexible.

[pole_smoker]

David Bowie was just a performer in my opinion. He performed as Ziggy and yes pushing gender boundaries with his makeup and clothing more so than sexuality. He was not Ziggy. The clothing was not too far off what was being worn by men but different enough to catch the attention of many in his audiences. Bowie was a performer who most understood added elements just beyond the average young person's life. The thread is about gender fluidity and not bisexuality.

No one that I knew called Bowie a fag or was concerned about him. They were more intrigued with what they knew was a performance. Perhaps as an artist I am less concerned about rigidly putting people in sexuality or gender boxes. Bowie also dressed as the Thin White Duke. I could see that he was thin and white skinned dressed in white but I didn't think that he was royalty. Bowie was acting and most of us knew that. Cross dressing was probably more known than bisexuality by the monosexual society that I lived in and many who later identified as bisexual.

Pole's words come across as rigid and inflexible.
Nope, my post is not rigid or inflexible but I haven't lived most of my life in the closet, and I don't buy into the "poor us!" professional victim mentality about bisexuality that certain people here do. ;)

Yes David Bowie did perform or make up characters for concerts and albums; but as a person he also came out as bisexual, as did lots of other people who were not famous during the 70s.

This thread may not have been about bisexuality, but it's changed into that since you hijacked the thread as usual with your "poor bisexual men" BS and drivel from the closet.

What monosexual society? In the 70s people and society knew about bisexuality, and not only in gay ghettos like Toronto where you're from. All through the 70s, 80s, and even up until today society and even "monosexuals" know about bisexuality and know that people are bisexual. Quit trying to revise the past and history to suit your own professional victim agenda.

[nomorenomore]

If you're not sexually attracted to women's vaginas then it sounds as though you're gay. I'm not flaming you but I did once ask my gay male friends who had sex with women if they were bisexual and they said how even though they've had sex with women they're simply not into women's genitals like you posted about, and they highly prefer men and male genitals.

I'm your age and I knew about bisexuality from a young age in the 70s, and so did my partner.

Not necessarily true. Just because I am not particular to a woman's vagina doesn't mean that I am not attracted to women. There are some women who don't like giving blow jobs, does that make them gay? I think you are oversimplifying things. Life as well as sexuality is complicated. As I stated, I like a woman's form better. I like the slow curves. I like breasts, the long hair, their eyes, their butts. Just don't happen to put pussy high on the list. Who knows, maybe one day I will actually have sex with a man and find I am no longer attracted to cock. What would I be then?
As to you knowing about bisexuality back in the 70's, that is great for you, your tag says NYC, so a bigger influence. I came from a small New England town. Hell, I never saw a black person except on TV, until I hit High School.

[void()]

There are some women who don't like giving blow jobs, does that make them gay?

Makes them my wife. *chuckles* In all seriousness after she explained why she did not like even the idea of a woman going down on a man, I saw she had a valid reason. To her it implies degradation. I still like going down on her at times despite no return favor. *shrugs* I like going down on cock too. But then I'm some kind of freak or so used to be said. *chuckles*

Oddly, I enjoy curves on both masculine and feminine forms, but really do not place high emphasis on genitalia of either form. Women's breasts are really nice but my wife assures me I'm more of an ass man. *shrug* I look at whole people really, least I think. No fun dealing with simply parts, often messy and too legally involved too, especially when the S.W.A.T teams come in and start looking for the cause of foul odors. *snickers, chuckles,lol*

[tenni]

Not necessarily true. Just because I am not particular to a woman's vagina doesn't mean that I am not attracted to women. There are some women who don't like giving blow jobs, does that make them gay? I think you are oversimplifying things. Life as well as sexuality is complicated. As I stated, I like a woman's form better. I like the slow curves. I like breasts, the long hair, their eyes, their butts. Just don't happen to put pussy high on the list. Who knows, maybe one day I will actually have sex with a man and find I am no longer attracted to cock. What would I be then?
As to you knowing about bisexuality back in the 70's, that is great for you, your tag says NYC, so a bigger influence. I came from a small New England town. Hell, I never saw a black person except on TV, until I hit High School.

Nomore You are quite correct that there more places in North America that knew nothing about bisexuality than did until recently. I never knew about uncircumcised penis until my 20's. I never saw one in my teens. I suspect still more know a little bit about transgendered than may know about bisexuality today. There are definitely more people today that are aware of bisexuality and trans than even in the 80's. For some narrow minded reason, Pole thinks that the world is just like his little world..even if that little world is New York city...lol That was fairly typical of people living in large cities in the 80's.

I am a bit curious as to you not being sexually attracted to vaginas though. Do you mean that you are emotionally attracted to women but not sexually as in wanting to put your dick in a vagina? Or do you mean that you are not attracted to the visual of a vagina?

[pole_smoker]

Nomore You are quite correct that there more places in North America that knew nothing about bisexuality than did until recently. I never knew about uncircumcised penis until my 20's. I never saw one in my teens. I suspect still more know a little bit about transgendered than may know about bisexuality today. There are definitely more people today that are aware of bisexuality and trans than even in the 80's. For some narrow minded reason, Pole thinks that the world is just like his little world..even if that little world is New York city...lol That was fairly typical of people living in large cities in the 80's.

I am a bit curious as to you not being sexually attracted to vaginas though. Do you mean that you are emotionally attracted to women but not sexually as in wanting to put your dick in a vagina? Or do you mean that you are not attracted to the visual of a vagina?
Nope, most people in North America and other countries did know about bisexuality, and intact penises with foreskins in the 70s and 80s and for decades before then. The majority of men worldwide are not cut and have never had their genitals mutilated which is what circumcision is.

People knew about bisexuality and about intact penises in small towns, and rural areas, and for sure in big cities and small cities despite what you want to claim, and this happened during the 70s, 80s, and before then. People have known about and understood about bisexuality for a lot longer than you assume they haven't; but your agenda is to paint bisexuals and bisexual men as professional victims, and claim that LOL "monosexuals" are to blame for all of bisexual people's problems :rolleyes: when that's not true.

[nomorenomore]

Nope, most people in North America and other countries did know about bisexuality, and intact penises with foreskins in the 70s and 80s and for decades before then. The majority of men worldwide are not cut and have never had their genitals mutilated which is what circumcision is.

People knew about bisexuality and about intact penises in small towns, and rural areas, and for sure in big cities and small cities despite what you want to claim, and this happened during the 70s, 80s, and before then. People have known about and understood about bisexuality for a lot longer than you assume they haven't; but your agenda is to paint bisexuals and bisexual men as professional victims, and claim that LOL "monosexuals" are to blame for all of bisexual people's problems :rolleyes: when that's not true.

I have never stated I was a victim. I am still learning about myself. I lived in an environment that talked little about sex. Hell, I never saw an uncut cock until after I started investigating my own sexuality in my 40's. I have only seen them in pictures. I grew up in a heavily Catholic area with a predominant French, Irish and Portuguese population. I never even had "the talk" when I was younger. so contrary to your belief that everyone knew in the 70's, I did not, not even until I was in my 40's. I just don't get how you go to having an agenda of victimization from a simple explanation of the environment I grew up in. The only thing I am a victim of is not getting any sex. Sheesh, lighten up. No one is claiming to be a victim.

@Tenni: I just don't really get turned on by pussy. I love breasts and ass, but pussy is a necessary evil so to speak. Oh I will go down on a woman and they tell me how great it was and how they never had such an orgasm. Hmm, must be doing something right, but really, I could pass. I have more disappointed than excited about pussy. Though, I always am looking at women. I love their form. Since I began recognizing that it was okay to be attracted to men, I find that now I do actually look at some men too. I would say that the ratio is still 70-30 women leading. Though men are catching up, the more I accept that it is okay. I know there is at least one man that I wouldn't mind having a tumble with. That being said, I find that when I watch porn, I am mesmerized by the cocks.
In the end, I am married so I may never find out if I could truly be with a man. I can imagine it, but at this point it is just fantasy. I just know that if I watch gay porn, I am not turned off by it and actually with the right guys in the scene can really get excited.

[pole_smoker]

I have never stated I was a victim. I am still learning about myself. I lived in an environment that talked little about sex. Hell, I never saw an uncut cock until after I started investigating my own sexuality in my 40's. I have only seen them in pictures. I grew up in a heavily Catholic area with a predominant French, Irish and Portuguese population. I never even had "the talk" when I was younger. so contrary to your belief that everyone knew in the 70's, I did not, not even until I was in my 40's. I just don't get how you go to having an agenda of victimization from a simple explanation of the environment I grew up in. The only thing I am a victim of is not getting any sex. Sheesh, lighten up. No one is claiming to be a victim.

@Tenni: I just don't really get turned on by pussy. I love breasts and ass, but pussy is a necessary evil so to speak. Oh I will go down on a woman and they tell me how great it was and how they never had such an orgasm. Hmm, must be doing something right, but really, I could pass. I have more disappointed than excited about pussy. Though, I always am looking at women. I love their form. Since I began recognizing that it was okay to be attracted to men, I find that now I do actually look at some men too. I would say that the ratio is still 70-30 women leading. Though men are catching up, the more I accept that it is okay. I know there is at least one man that I wouldn't mind having a tumble with. That being said, I find that when I watch porn, I am mesmerized by the cocks.
In the end, I am married so I may never find out if I could truly be with a man. I can imagine it, but at this point it is just fantasy. I just know that if I watch gay porn, I am not turned off by it and actually with the right guys in the scene can really get excited.
I was replying to Tenni, not you. I still find it very difficult to believe that you grew up around Portuguese people and never saw an intact penis as the majority of Portuguese and other people who are Latin, including French people too both in the United States and world-wide do not mutilate the genitals of their male children, since they see circumcision for what it is: involuntary genital mutilation. Irish people and even Irish-Americans are not all for it either.

Tenni is a professional victim troll on this site, always claiming that bisexual people and bisexual men have it the worst, that "monosexuals" are to blame for everything wrong with bisexual people, that society doesn't understand bisexuality, and that "monosexuals" (gay and heterosexual people) don't understand bisexuality and don't know about bisexuality when that's not true.

[tenni]

Interesting perspective nomore.

A woman's form makes you hard? A lot of guys are visually stimulated and aroused. With women it was the unknown that aroused us about women's bodies. In someway it was the forbidden that was arousing. More than one have stated that the actual visualness of a vagina or cock is not as beautiful as other parts of the human body. We do not have as much experience distinguishing cocks or vaginas as we have with judging the human face for example. Initially, I found your words different but it makes sense. I think that your experience about the visual stimulation increasing towards cock as you have matured is not that rare. This seems to be reported by men past 40 as a new attraction they never had. Sometimes, I wonder if it is based in a type of visual boredom? The novelness of permitting yourself to explore same gender sexual attraction can be stronger than m/f porn after awhile for some men.

Trying to bring the conversation back to the thread. If you are attracted to the female form and male genitalia are you attracted to trans people in transition from m to f?

I think that we have to remember that trolls present themselves as know it alls and rigid negativity is common regardless what name is used. He may make all kinds of statements that he is certain are correct without any factually research evidence evidence. What study can he quote to back up his rigid statements? none probably.

[pole_smoker]

Interesting perspective nomore.

A woman's form makes you hard? A lot of guys are visually stimulated and aroused. With women it was the unknown that aroused us about women's bodies. In someway it was the forbidden that was arousing. More than one have stated that the actual visualness of a vagina or cock is not as beautiful as other parts of the human body. We do not have as much experience distinguishing cocks or vaginas as we have with judging the human face for example. Initially, I found your words different but it makes sense. I think that your experience about the visual stimulation increasing towards cock as you have matured is not that rare. This seems to be reported by men past 40 as a new attraction they never had. Sometimes, I wonder if it is based in a type of visual boredom? The novelness of permitting yourself to explore same gender sexual attraction can be stronger than m/f porn after awhile for some men.

Trying to bring the conversation back to the thread. If you are attracted to the female form and male genitalia are you attracted to trans people in transition from m to f?

I think that we have to remember that trolls present themselves as know it alls and rigid negativity is common regardless what name is used. He may make all kinds of statements that he is certain are correct without any factually research evidence evidence. What study can he quote to back up his rigid statements? none probably.
Tenni you're the only troll here, and everyone knows it. I'm not negative-however your posts frequently are since you constantly complain about gays and lesbians (or people who you call "monosexual"), blame gay men and lesbian women, and even heterosexuals (particularly heterosexual women) for biphobia or all the problems that some bisexual people face, think that most or all bisexual men and bisexual people have a "poor me!" attitude about our sexuality when we do not, you advocate bisexual men cheating on their wives/girlfriends, and you assume that society and most people who are gay/lesbian, or even heterosexual do already know about bisexuality and understand that people can be bisexual as well.

Try actually studying history, human sexuality, different cultures besides your ultra PC biased from the closet culture in Toronto, and get out into the real world more.

[cbb83]

Well, I have come to the realization I am Gender Fluid and Pansexual. Even Hypersexual! I just love skin, sex, and the human form! I also enjoy wearing women's clothing publicly even when not dressed passably female! And the more femme I feel/look, the more submissive I become :)

I wish you well with your realizations :)

[void()]

People knew about bisexuality and about intact penises in small towns, and rural areas, and for sure in big cities and small cities despite what you want to claim, and this happened during the 70s, 80s, and before then. People have known about and understood about bisexuality for a lot longer than you assume they haven't; ....

In ancient Grecian mythology it was accepted that the king of gods, Zeus was bisexual. There is one tale in particular where he raped a young man. In those times the word rape annotated someone was abducted, possibly sexually assaulted. The sexual assault was not always implied though. Zeus stole away with this young man. Yes, he bedded him.

The two were lovers of mutual consent though. Zeus was also a fanatic womanizer as well. It is likely he enjoyed men with equal vigor yet it was lesser discussed. The point being even the Greeks of ancient times knew about bisexuality. Later on under Lucian, the Spartans were taught and guided to be bisexual as part of natural course. And it was based upon wolves being bisexual. Lucian was a military strategist who modeled Spartans after wolf packs, wolves are one of nature's most fierce, effective predatory forces. It made sense to have soldiers as effective as wolves.

Would hazard wagers that there is a great deal those in our past knew, understood, accepted which we so valiant hail as sophisticated modern thinking. Apologies for a slight derail. History is kind of something what turns cranks for me. ;)

[elian]

Hmm, now that you mention it I remember in 6th grade gym/sex ed class they showed a slide that had a nice hand drawn charcoal etching of both a cut and uncut penis side by side. Frankly I'm not sure why they thought it was important that we should see both of them but anyway, I remember the gym teacher mentioning that guys in the UK are typically uncircumcised. That would've been in the 80s.

of course we only saw "boy parts" - the girls were doing the same thing with whatever they were doing, but none of us boys were allowed in there. I think they were afraid we would figure out how the parts go together or something.

[void()]

Hmm, now that you mention it I remember in 6th grade gym/sex ed class they showed a slide that had a nice hand drawn charcoal etching of both a cut and uncut penis side by side. Frankly I'm not sure why they thought it was important that we should see both of them but anyway, I remember the gym teacher mentioning that guys in the UK are typically uncircumcised. That would've been in the 80s.

of course we only saw "boy parts" - the girls were doing the same thing with whatever they were doing, but none of us boys were allowed in there. I think they were afraid we would figure out how the parts go together or something.

It may be something like that television show we watched.

"The construction worker slides the pipe through the wall ..."

If memory serves there were a couple of pipes going through walls that night. Think someone volunteered as a plumber too. They sucked on a pipe to be sure it was clear. The other worker got all kinds of excited at the intensity. He had to squiggle away like a silly little girl, all giggling. Hehe. Love you honey. *hugs and snogs*

[nomorenomore]

Hmm, now that you mention it I remember in 6th grade gym/sex ed class they showed a slide that had a nice hand drawn charcoal etching of both a cut and uncut penis side by side. Frankly I'm not sure why they thought it was important that we should see both of them but anyway, I remember the gym teacher mentioning that guys in the UK are typically uncircumcised. That would've been in the 80s.

of course we only saw "boy parts" - the girls were doing the same thing with whatever they were doing, but none of us boys were allowed in there. I think they were afraid we would figure out how the parts go together or something.

See now we had a very basic Sex Education class as part of Health Class. My memory is foggy that far ago, but as I recollect the pic was of a cut penis. At that time, we didn't know any other kind. It was considered unhealthy not to circumcise a baby. We had heard of some who weren't but frankly never saw one until recently and then only in a picture.

[elian]

Yeah, but nowadays if you put a penetration through the wall like that you need a sleeve..international code or something.


It may be something like that television show we watched.

"The construction worker slides the pipe through the wall ..."

[elian]

People were still circumcising, but I think it was more or less because that was the norm..I mean - you don't want your kid to look different, do you? I'm not sure what the doc told my parents, or if they even thought they had a choice - since family was Cath-o-lic by default. I would say that if they AREN'T circumcising in the US it would probably be a very recent development..maybe some boys in the 90s..but I'm not going to take a survey to find out.

I think my grandfather was actually still intact .. he was polish .. but it's hard to remember - we were washing by the lake one time, that spring water was -cold- .. I mean, either you are, or you're not - sort of like hair color to me...but I guess cut vs. uncut is another thread.


See now we had a very basic Sex Education class as part of Health Class. My memory is foggy that far ago, but as I recollect the pic was of a cut penis. At that time, we didn't know any other kind. It was considered unhealthy not to circumcise a baby. We had heard of some who weren't but frankly never saw one until recently and then only in a picture.

[elian]

I can sympathize with transgendered folks, and given the right relationship with a deep enough connection, maybe I could even date someone. I've never been in the situation of intimately being with someone who has "ambiguous" physical form. I've watched a few of the porn videos featuring women with large clitoris - those were fun. I get horny just as much as the next person - and I have fantasized about both men and women - in the best world I would truly get to know the person and want to pleasure them for all of who they are..not just their physical body.

Given that sex is at least 50% in the mind ..

The problem I have right now is that it takes a lot of trust for me to want to make myself vulnerable to people to start with. When I was young more than one male took what they wanted without asking - or at least I really didn't know what I was getting into at the time - it opened this whole big can of amorous, androgynous, bisexual craving and mess.. I wanted love and acceptance from both genders very, very much.

Of course it's only really a problem if you buy into the notion of duality to start with, but of course most of society does - because they believe what they see with their own eyes - penises and vaginas.

..this is a little off the wall, but interesting philosophy anyway..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLF-TQtEEnU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLF-TQtEEnU)

Hmm..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qt6b8fRH0o

[Olivia920601]

http://www.bi-sexualdating.com/