Are we in danger in this site?

[rayosytruenos]

Hi everyone!

I put a link in my other thread "discrimination is still rampant!!!" where they cite cases of famous people "outed" or at least "made public" if they were already "out", after being discovered in a gay site (gaydar.co.uk).

For the ones of us who (for different circumstances) are/can't be out yet, do you think there is a real risk for you to be identified and "outed" on this site, with the possible consequences of even losing your job?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1097627,00.html

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1568

All the best,

ray :male:

[Herbwoman39]

First, why would someone who is not Bi or Bi curious come here in the first place?

Second, if someone were to come here looking to "out" a co-worker or acquanintance, they would have to wade through every single profile on this site. To do that, they would first have to sign up, themselves, THUS putting themselves "in jeopardy".

Third, we can provide as much information or as little as we wish here.

I am personally fortunate that I have, for the most part, stopped caring if someone I know finds out. Thanks to everyone here, I've talked out my fears and I'm pretty well over being afraid of being "found out.".

We can't keep living in fear. There is nothing wrong with what we do. Our lives are our own and not to be defined by a government orany person other than ourselves.

Read the signature. It says it all.

[arana]

Unfortunately survival must come first and foremost. People have to live and eat. When they live in an environment that is not as open minded they have no choice but to stay closeted to those who would do them or their loved ones harm. It's wonderful that so many don't have to hide who they are but there should also be some compassion to those that cannot. We are all some have and shouldn't judge their reasons for not being able to be open about their sexuality.
Also there are hate mongers who come to sites like these just to out people and be hurtful. Luckily I've only heard of one bad instance here. Though I don't think it's a big threat, it's not impossible. :2cents:

[Brian]

...do you think there is a real risk for you to be identified and "outed" on this site, with the possible consequences of even losing your job? I agree that the "don't ask, don't tell" policy is an embarassment to the principle of freedom and it is even more shameful that in the most recent case someone sabotaged someone else's career by outing them to the brass (anonymously no less - cowards). Apparantly, it's not really a "don't ask, don't tell" policy, it's a "don't ask, don't tell, and we better not find out any other way either" policy.

But just to head off any fears that this site could be used to out one of you... Provided you don't reveal your identity (name, address or something like that) in your username and/or your profile, then no other surfer can identify you using this site. You are safe. I refer everyone to our Privacy Policy (http://main.bisexual.com/index.php?do=privacypolicy) for more info.

If the US military asked me for information about any of you I would politely request them to kiss my hairy, lilly-white ass.

- Drew :paw:

[deletetacount123]

I am using the "nickname" (not really since it is my name lol) that I have been using since I first came on the net back in 1995.
Sometimes I do wonder if thats a good idea or not, to use your real name but the only time my name was a BIG issue was when I went on a chat site and people were wondering if I was a missing child with the same intitals and first name as well as the fact I would have been the same age in 1989. (I found out who she was, an 9 year old girl who vanished from Texas back in 1989.) That mess was cleared up after someone I knew came in and said "I know her personally... she is white and the missing girl is black... not the same girl.. now move on" :-)

Since I started posting my ad on dating sites, I never got recongized by someone I knew :-)
The only weird time was a tall pretty blonde who walked past me in the Zellers parking lot and she looked right at me with a big smile "Hi! How are you??"
I did not know who she was and couldn't think of anyone I small talked to in the past that looked like her... it hit me later, ... she may have seen me on a dating site.

I think the only danger you have on this site AND ANY SITE where you post your profile and a picture is that you may be viewed by people you don't know and some could be dangerous people.
But I do like sites like this one cause YOU have to register to actually view someones profile (other sites don't do that).

The net is scary :-) It always has been, and always will.

Tasha
PS. Do you think I should change my user name??? I used to go by another nickname but I got tired of explaing what it meant lol

[I would]

I can tell you that as for the Military the policy actually does kind of protect us (believe it or not) The only way you can be outed in the military is if you were caught haveing sex with a person of the same sex or if you personally admitted to it. Being seen in a gay bar is not going to get you kicked out of the military for two reasons. First, because if someone saw you in a bar they would have to explain why they were there also.And second, because it is not recognized as legitamate proof. :bipride:

[I would]

I will tell you TashaSW I used to use my last name mainly because it seemed to be that that was the only name not in use. But I reconsidered my position and I woluld seemed like a better name. and I do not post my picture anymore either. that just usually attracts weirdos anyway. But in my position I cannot afford to be outed or it will cost me dearly. As for you needing to change your user name, I would say no, there are a lot of people with those initials. If you are that worried about it though then I would take the picture off of your profiles. If some one wants to know what you look like that bad then tell them to use their imagination until you know each other better. :bibounce:

[Brian]

I can tell you that as for the Military the policy actually does kind of protect us (believe it or not) The only way you can be outed in the military is if you were caught haveing sex with a person of the same sex or if you personally admitted to it. Actually, unless I am mistaken, I don't think that is true IW. The recent cases have all involved anonymous tips, and that has been enough to cause suspensions and the start of discharge proceedings. What is happening is that often the person is being offered an honourable discharge in exchange for a "confession" - to head off any expensive legal challenges for the military.

Recent examples:
http://www.gay.com/news/article.html?2006/07/27/2
http://www.gay.com/news/article.html?2006/07/27/1

- Drew :paw:

[JohnnyV]

From what I understand, the truly dangerous site is gay.com . The parent company has given information about members to people involved in investigations. In the case of James West, the late mayor of Spokane, gay.com, from what I can tell, collaborated with West's opponents to destroy the man's career. West was a homophobic closet case so gay.com felt it in their rights to expose his hypocrisy; I found their complicity disgusting though.

J

[Brian]

Just an addition to my previous post...

Recent events should be an outrage to all, as Ray said. "Don't ask, don't tell" was supposed to be a compromise - it was supposed to offer some protection for GLBT soldiers and officers in exchange for them staying in the closet and thus making it easy on the military to manage. These recent examples have shown that this "agreement" has been broken by the other side - it's no longer a policy of "don't ask, don't tell".

- Drew :paw:

[Brian]

From what I understand, the truly dangerous site is gay.com . The parent company has given information about members to people involved in investigations. In the case of James West, the late mayor of Spokane, gay.com, from what I can tell, collaborated with West's opponents to destroy the man's career. West was a homophobic closet case so gay.com felt it in their rights to expose his hypocrisy; I found their complicity disgusting though.

J Very interesting.

- Drew :paw:

[Driver 8]

First, why would someone who is not Bi or Bi curious come here in the first place?
Some of the more annoying outings I've gone through have been by clueless bisexuals.

Once, memorably, my car broke down out of town and I called an acquaintance in the area - a religious guy who I was on friendly terms with, but not out to. When he got there, the bi friend riding with me helpfully volunteered that I had been on my way to a bi meeting at the National Women's Music Festival. Not career-ending (and not friendship-ending, as it turned out) but people can be way too quick to assume that if you're out to one person, you're out to everyone in your life. (In fact I was out to all my close friends, and to a fair number of other people because of the activism I'd done on GLBT issues, so I was pretty used to the idea that I wouldn't get to control how every single person came out; but I didn't generally discuss bisexuality with acquaintances unless there was some particular reason.)

Ironically, this same woman was a complete closet case who wouldn't write anonymous letters to the paper in favor of GLBT issues for fear they'd somehow be traced back to her. I kinda think that was part of the reason she was so free with my information, though - on the one hand, she didn't have much connection with larger GLBT culture, so she didn't know that outing someone was Not Done, and on the other, I think she imagined that I was living the kind of life she fantasized about - out to absolutely everyone with no concerns. Like, uh, alienating the one person who could help me out when I was stranded.

I could completely imagine someone like that signing onto a site like this and assuming that everyone here was out and proud! "Hey, everybody, guess whose picture I saw on bisexual.com!"

Second ... if you're involved in the bi community, you'll find it's not all that big. If you go to a local group, you'll likely run into the same people you meet online. I've gone to meetings and recognized strangers because I'd seen their photographs. That's one reason I'm careful about posting identifying information - it's one thing to have strangers saying "Driver 8 is into this and that," and another to have them say "This real live woman sitting next to me is into this and that." Bisexual groups attract a small but real minority of creepy people, and if you've ever had one of them get your real-life phone number and call you until you filed a police report ... you'll be very careful in the future, I assure you. But this is a different kind of safety than losing your job or other kinds of discrimination.

:2cents:

[jedinudist]

First, why would someone who is not Bi or Bi curious come here in the first place?

Second, if someone were to come here looking to "out" a co-worker or acquanintance, they would have to wade through every single profile on this site. To do that, they would first have to sign up, themselves, THUS putting themselves "in jeopardy".

Third, we can provide as much information or as little as we wish here.

To a degree, you are correct.

However, I learned something long ago in a tech support exersize. If someone can begin to link aliases, e-mail addresses, etc. to a person (actually pretty easy to do if you know a little bit about a person, such as the amount of knowledge a co-worker would have), it is very very easy to start cross linking their activity on the web.

It's not just how much information one divulges here, but also how much information overall they have divulged (or in the case of their job- their company has divulged) on the web as a whole.

I have horrified friends to whom I have showed this. The typical reaction was "Oh My GOD!" when I showed them what was out there on the web about them and how it could be cross-linked to other things they have done or said.

I understand there are now programs that will do this for you. You simply enter as much info as you can (names, e-mail addresses, etc.) and they scour the web via search engines to find stuff and match it up.

Heck - try Googling yourself using more than just your name. Open several browsers and google your name in one, your e-mail address in another, an alias in another, you street address, your company name or company e-mail, and start looking for things that pop up in more than one category. Those are the beginnings of cross-links.

It boils down to this - EVERYTHING you do online is public. It's just whether or not an aquaintance, back-stabbing co-worker, or enemy wants to spend the time to look into your activity on the web.

Your protection is to keep aliases/identities TOTALLY seperate. Never let them intermingle online. NEVER. And... being careful with your details.

Especially on the web - The Devil is in the Details.

[Herbwoman39]

Forgive my ignorance. Apparently I am far too naeive and trusting for my own good.

In my exuberance to be more open I made the mistake of believing that if we are all open, then those who know us will be more accepting because they will have learned, by associating with us that we are just as "normal" as they are.

I really want to believe that all people are basically good and that we will all be accepted and loved for who we are. At least once the shock wears off.

I hope I haven't said or done anything to offend anyone. That was not my intention at all.

[taz67156]

I don't think anyone could find out who people really are unless they want the other one to know cause Drew has this site safe for all of us to use and make friends if not more here.
Some of you that wonder why straight people come here like myself is cause we want to be able to learn more about our other half when they are bi along with the fact we might want to just make more friends which I have found alot of nice people here that I can call friends the only person that could ever get me to not come here other than kitten would have to be Drew.

taz67156

[jedinudist]

Forgive my ignorance. Apparently I am far too naeive and trusting for my own good.

In my exuberance to be more open I made the mistake of believing that if we are all open, then those who know us will be more accepting because they will have learned, by associating with us that we are just as "normal" as they are.

I really want to believe that all people are basically good and that we will all be accepted and loved for who we are. At least once the shock wears off.

I hope I haven't said or done anything to offend anyone. That was not my intention at all.

Oh My Goodness! It was not my intention AT ALL to make you feel this way!!!


I just wanted to point out to people that if one is not careful overall on the web, it is possible for a person to dig stuff up and piece it together.

I agree with you that, for the most part, many of us can feel safe just being who we are. And the more we do that, the more society will find out that we are actually normal, nothing to be afraid of or discriminate against, and accept us.

I think that each person has to reach that decision for themselves, and unfortunately, there are still far too many bigots out there who will make someone's life a living misery simply because of that person's sexual orientation. And it is evidenced that the tendency for this behavior may be more likely in some parts of the country than others. I do wish we could all just be out of the closet safely and comfortably, be accepted for who we are (regular, everyday people) and be judged soley on our behavior, not our orientation, beliefs, socio-economic status, etc.

You are far from ignorant! If we could all do this, I believe the end result would be as you predict; i.e.- acceptance overall.

I just know that there are some here who's lives as they know them would be destroyed if anyone went to the trouble and was able to put together enough information to "out" them against their will.

[Driver 8]

I hope I haven't said or done anything to offend anyone. That was not my intention at all.
Heavens, Herbwoman, I don't see anything offensive in what you've said.

It's true that people who know someone who's GLBT tend to be more accepting than people who don't. (Or who don't know that they know someone ...) I've seen people's attitudes change as they get to know someone who's out.

I do think people often over-estimate the dangers of coming out by assuming that the worst possible will happen ("I'll lose my job, and all my friends, and my parents will disinherit me ...") and I'd encourage people to be realistic when they figure out their risks, by asking things like "What's happened to other people in my area, my social circle, or my family who came out?" Things are hardly ever as bad as our worst fears.

But at the same time, there are a lot of other factors (your personal sense of privacy, whether you have a same-sex partner and want to be as open about your relationship as you would be about an opposite-sex partner, how bi-friendly your workplace is) that make most people decide how out to be on a case-by-case basis.

[jedinudist]

But just to head off any fears that this site could be used to out one of you... Provided you don't reveal your identity (name, address or something like that) in your username and/or your profile, then no other surfer can identify you using this site. You are safe. I refer everyone to our Privacy Policy (http://main.bisexual.com/index.php?do=privacypolicy) for more info.

If the US military asked me for information about any of you I would politely request them to kiss my hairy, lilly-white ass.

- Drew :paw:

The comments I made don't refer to this site or it's policies. Drew has done an excellent job here. Instead I am addressing each individual's behavior.

BTW- careful Drew. You tell the military to kiss your ass, and some hunky soldier just might take you up on the offer ;)

[Brian]

The comments I made don't refer to this site or it's policies. Drew has done an excellent job here. Instead I am addressing each individual's behavior.

BTW- careful Drew. You tell the military to kiss your ass, and some hunky soldier just might take you up on the offer ;) Ooooh, please let it be a marine!!!!! Woof!

- Drew :paw:

[jedinudist]

Ooooh, please let it be a marine!!!!! Woof!

- Drew :paw:

ROTFLMO - Ya know...

I was in the USMC ;)

LOL

[rayosytruenos]

First, why would someone who is not Bi or Bi curious come here in the first place?
Unfortunately I have had the experience in gay.com to see on the boards from time to time, really nasty posts, maybe the softest of them being the sort of "you are just a bunch of perverts! you'll burn in hell!". The site itself has lost a lot of points as they had a very live and interesting group of boards, but now it seems they have no moderators and the boards are just mainly an invasion of sexual enhancers ads (I'm speaking about gay.com in the U.K., not sure how it is in the U.S.).


Second, if someone were to come here looking to "out" a co-worker or acquanintance, they would have to wade through every single profile on this site. To do that, they would first have to sign up, themselves, THUS putting themselves "in jeopardy".
Not really, even without being so knowledgeable as jedinudist, you could find/see somebody's profile ringing a bell to you. While I have to fight my inner demons and the part of me wanting to be out also, it happens that you usually give a description of yourself, your likes, area, etc. So some bigot who could be even a gay basher could sign up on the site and spend time to find and give a lesson to the gay/bisexual people in his area.

Regretfully, we have had recent cases here in the U.K. of attacks from gay bashers, resulting some of those cases in the victims' death.

I was not really concerned about Drew giving my details out, although I got really shocked when I read JohnnyV's post about gay.com and James West. And I'm not sure if they acted ethically even if he was a homophobic closet case (usually the homophobes are really closeted gays... I've met a few!!!).

I was more concerned about the chances of a co-worker found you/recognized you for whatever traces you could leave behind. So there are my fears and my intent of being balanced with the information I give, even if I don't put my personal pics in my profile.

I'm not sure how they identified Boy George at gaydar.co.uk and published his details. (Boy George seems to be very happy as he's out and since that "outing"/gossiping of his profile, a lot of people seem to be interested in him). By the way, if you don't know, Boy George is the former singer of the group "Culture Club", (famous for its hit song "Karma Chameleon"), the one that usually appeared to be a woman with blond plaits, a hat, and a dress.

Boy George was happy to be public, but I don't think the minister or vicar who was also "outed" by the same columnist would be that happy. (He was not "out").

The bigotry, discrimination and lack of knowledge is still rampant in many companies, even if they put "advertisingly" "no discrimination for reasons of creed, race or sexual orientation". That's simply rubbish... They still do it!!! I've seen it several times, as I am not "out" and can pass as one of the "straight lads". I laugh at the stern voices telling me "oh, you could always take them to court". How can you prove it? It's not that easy, and they always say that it's for other reasons, that you don't meet their criteria for such post, or whatever reason/s they have studied to use in those cases.

The lack of knowledge is sometimes unbearable, as when you hear somebody call a homosexual "fag, faggot, cocksucker, paedophile!!!". They identify a homosexual with a paedophile!!! I'm speaking about homosexuals, but as a bisexual, a part of me is homosexual, so it also affects me, and I'm working with boys. Having had the clearance from the police (as we all people working in a close environment with children) telling the prospective company that they can contract me as I'm not a paedophile and I'm not in the sex offenders list, is not enough for me, as I feared that if they knew I bed also men, they could immediately made the equation: gay/bisexual = paedophile thus filing for termination of the contract.

Again, I also find in this way another example of discrimination. I've known cases of expulsion/termination of contract of teachers once they have known they were gays, and therefore (their thought, of course not mine!!!) a risk for the boys. Why then they don't terminate the contract of heterosexual teachers working with girls? Are they not a threat to them? Or is it just because we are "just a bunch of perverts"? :soapbox:

The funny side of the story is that in the U.K. they can have consensual sex once they are 16 years old, and I've been chatted up and teased by some of the older guys (17-18 years old), but fortunately they have respected my neutral response/dismissal.

I've seen a friend of mine in gaydar.co.uk. He's out, but he is in a monogamous relationship with another bloke I know too. They live together, and I was surprised to see him there asking for a hook-up. So this sort of coincidence also could happen.

Actually, the following happens just a few hours ago, this same evening: due to my fears, I have not had much fun in the last months since I got this new job in this new place, but I was like on the edge of bursting for having sex with a man, and as I was posting about gaydar.co.uk, I decided to make a visit to the site, I think I was not really expecting anything, but suddenly some windows popped out, and I answered their questions... Well, to make it short, one of them was in my area and wanted to meet me. It was less than 10 minutes walk from where I live, and it happened that he works for the same company I do!!! He's gay and he said he wouldn't out me. He doesn't work at the same building, and we hadn't met before, although he knows most of my co-workers and members of the management!!! Even worse, when I was close to his place, I met a colleague from work walking his dog!!! Is it or is it not this world small?

Well, time will tell if I'm outed or not...

All the best,

ray :male:

[jedinudist]

Well, time will tell if I'm outed or not...

All the best,

ray :male:

Hoping for the best for ya!

[JrzGuy3]

In my exuberance to be more open I made the mistake of believing that if we are all open, then those who know us will be more accepting because they will have learned, by associating with us that we are just as "normal" as they are.

Or Door #2, which involves the Sexual Deviancy Registration Act, the vaccine which effectively suppresses homosexual thoughts (and encouraging heterosexual ones) and the beginning of the war. Hate groups will spring up in the deep south and midwest and eventual rioting in the coastal cities. A third of us (collective GLBT) will submit, a third will go into the closet and a third will go underground and resist.

What, you think I'm kidding?

[strawberry8302]

This site is anything but dangerous. You'd have to be pretty obvious to be outed on this site. If ppl are that sick as to join a bisexual site to go undercover to put someone's business out there, that's just sad. I haven't heard any bad stories about ppl being outed on this site, so I think it's real safe.

[deletetacount123]

Yep :-)
Beside, if that person says "I saw you on bisexuals.com"
You can say "were you REALLY looking for me on that site or are you just saying that to cover what your REALLY doing?" hehe

Tasha

[Brian]

It's a good point about the pictures - that someone might recognize you from your headshot - I never thought of that before.

The other day I "discovered" that there is no way to attach a picture to a private message to exchange pics that way (in semi-private). I'll see what I can do about adding that capability to the next round of custom modifications to the site software.

- Drew :paw:

[mrplayfuluk]

I would love to put a proper face pic on this site but because i am wary of being outed by someone who knows me vaguely thru business or a friend of a friend... I avoid it. Drew would you be able to perhaps set up a 'private pic' part of a profile so anyone I put in my buddy list could see that pic; it would save a lot of extra emailing, and make it possible to reveal more of one's self to people we get along with. Maybe the shy among us would come out a bit more. I've seen it on other sites and it kinda makes sense... discuss?

[Brian]

Drew would you be able to perhaps set up a 'private pic' part of a profile so anyone I put in my buddy list could see that pic; it would save a lot of extra emailing, and make it possible to reveal more of one's self to people we get along with. Maybe the shy among us would come out a bit more. I've seen it on other sites and it kinda makes sense... discuss? Yes, a very good suggestion. I've added it to the wish/to-do list.

- Drew :paw:

[deletetacount123]

Oh Drew? did you get my suggestion on a topic almost like that one?? about the VERY private pictures? :-)

Tasha

[Dagni]

I can answer on this question only from my objective view.
I really don't care personaly if we are i'm in any kind of danger because i'm on this site, or in real life.
I'm totaly out, and all i know is that no one ever made me any troubles in Finland, or in any Scandinavian country because i'm bisexual.

As a matter a fact, i am so so famous person and i really don't see any reason why i should hide anything which is part of my personality and character.
And i really like to take all things on individual level first, and because of that i don't really care about any society or any critics that i get because i'm bisexual.

If you pay attention on society, and make compromise with surrounding, it's really crazy thing.
Just be what you really are, no matter if you're from Great Britain, USA, or even Saudi Arabia. And those people who will judge you because of what you really are, that's their problem and that's a fact.

And yes, i did kiss the girl in the streets of Manama in Bahrein, and i'm ready to do that again, because i don't wanna hide my real nature.

Afterall, this is just my opinion.

[wanderingrichard]

crap,
lost the original of this one.....somehow the puter choked, and spit me outta the reply column and i've lost all the train of thot... damn thats sad to lose something that long, too....

basically,

drew, thanx to you and the whole team at the office there for keeping the site secure enough that most of those fears arent readily realized or attanable by the casual hacker, and i suspect the servers and the back office stuff are locked down pretty well too..oh, and hope you get your marine :tongue: they can be loads of fun... :eek:

rayo,
baby, look in the forum threads for a posting i did last wed. eve called " don't ask, don't"...you'll see how sadly lopsided that policy is applied

good points about personal concerns and personal security by all here , btw.. just remember to be as prudent as possible and you should be fine

[rayosytruenos]

[...] I'm totally out, and all i know is that no one ever made me any troubles in Finland, or in any Scandinavian country because i'm bisexual.

As a matter a fact, i am so so famous person and i really don't see any reason why i should hide anything which is part of my personality and character.[...]

Just be what you really are, no matter if you're from Great Britain, USA, or even Saudi Arabia. And those people who will judge you because of what you really are, that's their problem and that's a fact.

And yes, i did kiss the girl in the streets of Manama in Bahrein, and i'm ready to do that again, because i don't wanna hide my real nature. [...]

I’m sincerely glad for you, Dagni, you live in a very progressive country. You are Finnish, and you are right when you speak about the major acceptance of sexual diversity and freedom in the Scandinavian countries.

Still nowadays, we can see in my country (Spain) movies from the sixties when there was a dictatorship governing the country and there was a lot of sexual repression (even the kisses were cut off from the movies, or for citing another example, in the movie “Mogambo” with Clark Gable, the adulterous woman having an affair with him, became his sister in the Spanish dubbed version!!!). In those Spanish movies from the sixties, we can see the fascination for the Swedish women who started to spend holidays in Spain and they were so sexually liberated.

If you are famous, and I’m here just guessing, as I haven’t heard any news of what you are explaining, your kissing of another woman wouldn’t be that big issue (you are famous, and a foreigner, so if you were arrested, your government and a lot of international pressure would fall on Bahrain’s government to freed you swiftly). I’m not that sure though, that you could escape so easily if instead of kissing another woman, you were caught licking his clitoris.

You are a singer, so probably you’ve heard about George Michael. What happened to him after he was caught by the police cruising in some public toilets in L.A. by an undercover police? His song’s sales plummeted, coming to a real very low. Shouldn’t we leave what we do in our private life as that, part of that private life? I know that it was in a public place, but people go there to do their own private things…

Unfortunately, not everyone is so lucky as you are. I have just selected a few links where you can see how different it is in other countries and societies: harassment and discrimination for being gay, fired for being gay, executed for being gay… Yes, even you can be dead for just being gay, but not only in countries with a government that approves the execution of gays, but also in countries said to be of the First World, the leading countries, with powerful economies and supposedly advanced societies… Ok, in this case, the death sentence is not executed by government’s orders, but for some members of our own societies…

Executed for being gay:

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/9865

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/9315

Top Rabbi Believes Gays Should Be Killed:

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/2199

US politician says Elton John and Dick Cheney’s daughter should be sentenced to death because they are homosexuals:

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-838.html

Death as result of using a gay chatline/internet site:

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/3791

Homophobic attacks with result of death:

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/9148

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/7052

David Morley, a survivor of the Admiral Duncan nail bombing (a gay pub in the Soho area in London, U.K., which was the target of a homophobic bomb attack where several people died) was not so lucky on a next homophobic attack:

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/7060

Harassment towards gays and bisexuals:

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/8531

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/6477

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/324

London sees homophobic crime increase:

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/6890

State-Sponsored Homophobia in Southern Africa:

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/4304

US joined Iran, Zimbabwe, China, Cameroon and Egypt in blocking gay groups:

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/9523

Punishing corporations for gay-friendly policies:

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/9345

Loss of job for being gay:

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/1377

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/2308

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/727

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/2035

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/701

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/7633

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/1056

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/6844

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/3551

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/4598

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/4923

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/6423

I could go on and on, but I think it’s more than enough to show my point of view. As Arana said wonderfully:


Unfortunately survival must come first and foremost. People have to live and eat. When they live in an environment that is not as open minded they have no choice but to stay closeted to those who would do them or their loved ones harm. It's wonderful that so many don't have to hide who they are […]
Also there are hate mongers who come to sites like these just to out people and be hurtful. Luckily I've only heard of one bad instance here. Though I don't think it's a big threat, it's not impossible.
Are we heading to another gay/bisexual holocaust? :

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/9533

All the best,

ray :male:

[JrzGuy3]

If you pay attention on society, and make compromise with surrounding, it's really crazy thing.
Just be what you really are, no matter if you're from Great Britain, USA, or even Saudi Arabia. And those people who will judge you because of what you really are, that's their problem and that's a fact.

I think when you get beheaded for "crimes against nature," it does indeed become your problem as well.

[Herbwoman39]

Unfortunately survival must come first and foremost. People have to live and eat. When they live in an environment that is not as open minded they have no choice but to stay closeted to those who would do them or their loved ones harm. It's wonderful that so many don't have to hide who they are but there should also be some compassion to those that cannot. We are all some have and shouldn't judge their reasons for not being able to be open about their sexuality.
Also there are hate mongers who come to sites like these just to out people and be hurtful. Luckily I've only heard of one bad instance here. Though I don't think it's a big threat, it's not impossible. :2cents:


You have a very valid point. I am fortunate in that I work for myself. We own our own business, so I have the luxury of not having to worry about being fired because of my sexuality.

With that privelege sometimes comes temporary amnesia. I forget what it's like to have to live in hiding so that I can keep a roof over my head. I forget that many people *do* have to care who they are out to because there are harmful influences. The world is not a safe place no matter how badly I want to believe in the goodness of people at heart.

One of my favorite movies, Kevin Smith's "Dogma" talks about beliefs. People will kill for a belief. People will die for a belief. That's what makes them so dangerous. It takes a fundamental shift for someone to change a belief. People with a different sexual orientation bring up fear because people are afraid of what they don't understand. Heck, that's one of the reasons I lived in denial for so many years :-/

I realize I'm babbling but I'm hoping I got my point across.

[jedinudist]

You have a very valid point. I am fortunate in that I work for myself. We own our own business, so I have the luxury of not having to worry about being fired because of my sexuality.

With that privelege sometimes comes temporary amnesia. I forget what it's like to have to live in hiding so that I can keep a roof over my head. I forget that many people *do* have to care who they are out to because there are harmful influences. The world is not a safe place no matter how badly I want to believe in the goodness of people at heart.

One of my favorite movies, Kevin Smith's "Dogma" talks about beliefs. People will kill for a belief. People will die for a belief. That's what makes them so dangerous. It takes a fundamental shift for someone to change a belief. People with a different sexual orientation bring up fear because people are afraid of what they don't understand. Heck, that's one of the reasons I lived in denial for so many years :-/

I realize I'm babbling but I'm hoping I got my point across.

You do, and you weren't babbling :)

That is why I posted the things I did, to remind people that, for wahtever personal reason, there are hateful folks out there that join sites like this (sites centered on alternative lifestyles, beliefs, orientations, etc.) for the sole purpose of outing/harrasing/hurting the people there.

Again, I commend Drew and his crew for the excellent job they've done here. Just be cautious with your details if you can not afford to be out of the closet.

[strawberry8302]

Yep :-)
Beside, if that person says "I saw you on bisexuals.com"
You can say "were you REALLY looking for me on that site or are you just saying that to cover what your REALLY doing?" hehe

Tasha

LMAO!!!!

[Sparks]

I don't feel in danger here. No I'm not out to the public. Should someone join the site and out me; Well, if it were to happen to me, in legal terms that is a Tort to which they would end up renting their home from me. :)

[Brian]

Oh Drew? did you get my suggestion on a topic almost like that one?? about the VERY private pictures? :-)

Tasha Not quite sure what you are referring to Tasha. Private Message me or email me through the contact us link, pls.

- Drew :paw:

[DÆMØN]

I learned something long ago in a tech support exersize. If someone can begin to link aliases, e-mail addresses, etc. to a person (actually pretty easy to do if you know a little bit about a person, such as the amount of knowledge a co-worker would have), it is very very easy to start cross linking their activity on the web.

Pst... Google's spiders are very efficient... sometime try a search on your username, you may or may not be astonished... ditto any other persona you may take on... I ran accross an article by Nicole Roberge GOOGLE ME,
http://www.onlinedatingmagazine.com/columns/datingtriumphs/04-googleme.html

Quite eye opening reality I must say. Still don't let paranoia grind you down. Your following me around isn't going to help my paranoia either rofl. :bigrin:

My netname, one of many for undefined activities; certainly caused me to do the doubble think and check my six, and lo and behold my nakee's on profile were accessible to all to see. Gasp! So I done the only thing I could do and removed them temporarily, 'til the time when sharing nakees's on site tween consenting parties is somewhut safer; I don't need fambly to "stumble" upon em by mithstake! ( sure this is covered elsewheres in forums )

[12voltman59]

Just a bit of discussion on a point raised by Rayostruenos regarding "the connection" between being "gay" (bisexuality falling under that designation) and pedophillia.

Far too many people make an automatic assumption that anyone who is gay is also automatically a pedophile---well from the kind of training that those in law enforcement/social work receive---the facts say that this is not the case.

Back when I was a probation/parole officer for the state of Florida--I was starting to handle sexual offender cases and started receiving training to be handle a sex offender only caseload.

While statistics do not always tell the entire story---the fact is that according to many studies about pedophillia and pedophiles--the statistical model of a pedophile is: a white-middle aged, middle to upper middle class male professional, married with children and without question--a heterosexual whether the offender sexaully assaults boys or girls--the fixation for these men is not often the sex of the child--it is the age of the child---

There are all kinds of theories about why this is so---I won't go into this here---

As far as the security of this site is concerned from friends and co-workers and such trying to find out about us--I have no concerns about that--it took me a long time to find this site and I had done all kinds of searches for such a site.

I do want to post here another thing that I have been thinking about recently---it is a bit off topic--but here it goes.

I happened to catch a rebroadcast of a movie about the murder of the young gay man out west a few years ago---I think it was Matthew Sheppard...

It just got me to thinking about why some guys literally become homicidal when confronted with someone who is gay and how they think that every gay is "on the hunt" for any other guy to have sex with.

I guess they think that is the way it is for gays (or bis) since that is the way they approach "getting a woman" --the concept that each and every female is somehow "a possible catch" irrespective of whether she would want to be "caught" or not ---

So these guys obviously think that gays are all on the hunt for a man--any man, all the time---I doubt if that is the case for gays----while I would like to find a guy to be with--I am not interested in any guy--just those that are also interested in doing something---I am sure that most gays would not want to have sex or any other kind of interaction with another guy if there were not some mutual thing going on....

The attitude that on the part of men that I mention above regarding either men or women does not reflect well on male sexuality--it is certainly a dark side of male sexuality....

[rayosytruenos]

Pst... Google's spiders are very efficient... sometime try a search on your username, you may or may not be astonished...

Wow! I did google my nickname in here, and sure enough, a lot of different results came out, some of them with my posts in here!!!

I did another google search with my family name, and I found 3 results for one of my brothers (of course we have the same family name, and it's not very common!!!). From those 3 results, I knew about one of them but hadn't seen it before and the other 2 I had no idea. Actually I might speak to my brother about it, although he might get paranoid or think I'm digging into his personal life!!!

We are not safe anywhere in this computer era!!! lol

All the best,

ray :male:

[deletetacount123]

lol ya the Computer can be fun.... but dangerous too lol
There are times when I wished Computers didn't exists :-) Such as when it crashes on me for no reason, or the internet disconnects for hours.....

You begin to wonder.....

What was your life like BEFORE you had the computer/internet?!?! lol

Tasha

[Dagni]

[COLOR=Blue][SIZE=3][FONT=Comic Sans MS]

I’m sincerely glad for you, Dagni, you live in a very progressive country. You are Finnish, and you are right when you speak about the major acceptance of sexual diversity and freedom in the Scandinavian countries.

Still nowadays, we can see in my country (Spain) movies from the sixties when there was a dictatorship governing the country and there was a lot of sexual repression (even the kisses were cut off from the movies, or for citing another example, in the movie “Mogambo” with Clark Gable, the adulterous woman having an affair with him, became his sister in the Spanish dubbed version!!!). In those Spanish movies from the sixties, we can see the fascination for the Swedish women who started to spend holidays in Spain and they were so sexually liberated.

If you are famous, and I’m here just guessing, as I haven’t heard any news of what you are explaining, your kissing of another woman wouldn’t be that big issue (you are famous, and a foreigner, so if you were arrested, your government and a lot of international pressure would fall on Bahrain’s government to freed you swiftly). I’m not that sure though, that you could escape so easily if instead of kissing another woman, you were caught licking his clitoris.

You are a singer, so probably you’ve heard about George Michael. What happened to him after he was caught by the police cruising in some public toilets in L.A. by an undercover police? His song’s sales plummeted, coming to a real very low. Shouldn’t we leave what we do in our private life as that, part of that private life? I know that it was in a public place, but people go there to do their own private things…

Unfortunately, not everyone is so lucky as you are. I have just selected a few links where you can see how different it is in other countries and societies: harassment and discrimination for being gay, fired for being gay, executed for being gay… Yes, even you can be dead for just being gay, but not only in countries with a government that approves the execution of gays, but also in countries said to be of the First World, the leading countries, with powerful economies and supposedly advanced societies… Ok, in this case, the death sentence is not executed by government’s orders, but for some members of our own societies…



Ray, i don't actually think this is because i'm Scandinavian. Maybe i just had some luck to be born and live here, i don't know.
But i will take all parts on individual level.
No matter where are you from, or where you living, making compromise with surrounding is actually killing your own essential feelings, essential "first feeling" of your charachter, and only means that you actually humilitate yourself if you hide if you're bi, gay or les.

And yes, i am famous but much more because of my last name, and because i'm from famous racing family, not because i used to be a singer. But again, i would not take that like some kind of aliby for anything.

I know about G.Michael and what happend to him, that's because i think that you have to keep your own sexuality under the closed door, not to have sex in public or something like that, not to prove that you're bi or gay, but i think that kissing in public, even in Bahrein, is something normal and natural.

Just be yourself and defend your attitude until the end. Hiding from what you really are is crime to yourself. It's actually suicide attepmt to kill your own feelings.
It's most important in this crueal world to build up stability in yourself and to feel free and to riding free as an eagle.

P.S. Sorry for my bad english, i'm just under huge stress and extremly exhausted.

[rayosytruenos]

Just a bit of discussion on a point raised by Rayostruenos regarding "the connection" between being "gay" (bisexuality falling under that designation) and pedophillia.

Far too many people make an automatic assumption that anyone who is gay is also automatically a pedophile---well from the kind of training that those in law enforcement/social work receive---the facts say that this is not the case. [...]

While statistics do not always tell the entire story---the fact is that according to many studies about pedophillia and pedophiles--the statistical model of a pedophile is: a white-middle aged, middle to upper middle class male professional, married with children and without question--a heterosexual whether the offender sexaully assaults boys or girls--the fixation for these men is not often the sex of the child--it is the age of the child---

Thanks Voltie for sharing some professional knowledge about those FACTS. Of course I've never thought gay=paedophile, but unfortunately some people do, some even with high responsability roles in communities and education. They should also be trained and informed of the statistics showing them the truth.


I happened to catch a rebroadcast of a movie about the murder of the young gay man out west a few years ago---I think it was Matthew Sheppard...

It just got me to thinking about why some guys literally become homicidal when confronted with someone who is gay [...]

I've had a theory for years that it seems to be confirmed by some experiments, and it's that most homophobes are really homosexuals, but cannot accept their feelings, so a way to fight against those feelings is going over the top criticizing, insulting and even using physical violence against gays.

In the link below, Peter Tatchell speaks about a research conducted by an acclaimed US psychologist which suggests that 80 per cent of men who are homophobic have secret homosexual feelings.

This finding lends scientific support to the long-standing speculation that those who shout the loudest against homosexuality have something to hide.

The research results were published in the prestigious Journal of Abnormal Psychology, with the backing of the American Psychological Association.

In tests conducted by Prof. Henry E Adams of the University of Georgia, homophobic men who said they were exclusively heterosexual were shown gay sex videos.

Four out of five became sexually aroused by the homoerotic imagery, as recorded by a plethysmograph . . . a calibrated band fitted around the penis, which measures any enlargement.

Prof. Adams says his research shows that most homophobes "demonstrate significant sexual arousal to homosexual erotic stimuli" suggesting that homophobia is a form of "latent homosexuality where persons are either unaware of - or deny - their homosexual urges":

http://icnewcastle.icnetwork.co.uk/sundaysun/news/tm_objectid=16667347&method=full&siteid=50081&headline=was-our-ken-telling-it-straight--name_page.html


Looking for that information, I found also this other link, and even if it is mostly the same story, I cannot resist the temptation to add it also, as I love when she writes
Adams says his research shows that most homophobes "demonstrate significant sexual arousal to homosexual erotic stimuli" suggesting that homophobia is a form of "latent homosexuality where persons are either unaware of -or deny- their homosexual urges." Hmm, what does this say about all of those anti-gay reverends, preachers & [...] politicians? and also when she goes on later on with
You're both thinking of Spokane Wash's mayor James West. He was a bigtime GOP gay basher who was caught soliciting boys online. I believe anything involving kids falls into the pedophilia category, certainly not being gay, but since West felt the need to gay bash, it is sweet irony that he gets caught lusting after males.

Well, let's see... as far as deeply closeted but have been outed GOP Congressman, there is David Dreier of CA, James McCrery of LA, Ed Shrock of VA, Jim Kolbe of AZ, Mark Foley of FL... I believe the list is long [...]
The link is the following:

http://fuzzyandblue.blogspot.com/2006/02/study-homophobes-aroused-by-gay-porn_08.html

All the best,

ray :male:

[rayosytruenos]

Just be yourself and defend your attitude until the end. Hiding from what you really are is crime to yourself. It's actually suicide attepmt to kill your own feelings.
It's most important in this crueal world to build up stability in yourself and to feel free and to riding free as an eagle.

P.S. Sorry for my bad english, i'm just under huge stress and extremly exhausted.
Thanks Dagni for answering back. I don't feel I'm killing my feelings, just hiding them to the general public, like the size of my dick or the amount of money I have in my bank account as I think they are also part of my private life.

Yes, sometimes I feel like I'm going to explode for such pressure inside me wanting to shout out what I feel, but I think it's a kind of compromise. I like the job I have now, and I don't want to jeopardize it either as a job I like either as a source of income. If you checked some of the links on my previous answer to you, you could see some of the cases where gays were sacked from their jobs for their sexual orientation, no matter what legislation on anti-gay discrimination is on, they still do it.

Well, I cannot say it's applicable to me in this country, but to other people living for instance in countries like Iran, I think I would prefer to commit a suicide against my feelings (even if I don't think I'm doing such a thing) that a suicide against myself for being "out", as being openly gay means REAL DEATH by government's orders. If you keep your body alive, even if necessary with your feelings dormant, maybe you could flee to another country and be free to express who you really are.

I know it's just my point of view, but I don't think I'm ready to accept death as a consequence of my sexual orientation, so I'd probably try to hide it. Being bisexual means that I could perform with no problems with a woman and pass as a "normal" straight person.

I don't see myself as a hero/fighter/leader of a crusade against anti-gay laws or governments. I just try when I can to open some close minds and to teach some understanding about other people's beliefs and practices. I know it might not be much, but I think every little counts... (TESCO's advertisement- a supermarket chain) :tong:

Are you complaining about your English? Look at mine!!! I'm very absent-minded and even trying to proofread my posts, I left mistakes everywhere... like reading your quotation of my post, I noticed I wrote "... I’m not that sure though, that you could escape so easily if instead of kissing another woman, you were caught licking his clitoris." OF COURSE I MEANT HER CLITORIS... I wish Drew could correct it in my original post and quotations...


All the best,

ray :male:

[Nara_lovely]

I would say, if I was fired for being me...being Bi...I'd rather not work at a place where I live in that fear.
The same goes for friends and aquaintances.

If someone was that motivated to destroy you by delving deep into your personal life, so be it...can you stop them? No...computers or otherwise, they will find a way.

What's the option: hide from everything, or take a chance on life and happiness.
So many threads have discussed the wonderful feeling of finally 'coming out' and the relief. OK, so there are consequences too, questions, occasional hardship...each person to decide if it is worth it.

I don't see 'danger' but I see possibilities. Those possibilities being difficult or enjoyable...the whole 'balance in life' What's important to me, is to face whatever comes and move through it with the best that I can within me. (or borrow a load of strength from friendstill the crisis is over!).

[12voltman59]

Holy shit--I did Google my handle and it did come up with some of my posts on here--oh well---so much for being discrete on the net--but then someone would have to know my handle on here to get a successful websearch and then start reading the posts to put 2 and 2 together----it would most likely be the same for everyone here I would think---someone would have to know your handle in here in order to successfullly Google it....I guess what they say is true--nothing is really private here on the web....if you put it out there--the stuff stays out there somewhere

[JohnnyV]

I've noticed a trap that comes with the theory that "homophobes are all repressed homosexuals."

First, I think it's specious to strap a sensor around a man's penis to see what's going on in his brain. That's the methodology that Bailey used to say "eureka! I've proved that there are no such things as bisexuals."

Second, in combatting homophobia I don't want to use the stigma of homosexuality as a weapon. That is to say, if I tell a homophobe, "you're really gay," perhaps I score a short-term victory by shutting him up or embarrassing him. But I am still shutting him up or embarrassing him by calling him gay, which kind of perpetuates the idea that it's gayness that causes the problem. In the long term, that strengthens homophobia and fosters a sense of fear about being exposed for your sexuality (which makes nobody happier).

Third, I don't want to function with the assumption that homosexuality is always linked to problematic behavior like hatred against other homosexuals. Doesn't that just keep gay identity in the realm of pathology? Isn't that where we don't want to be?

Fourth, I don't want heterosexuals to feel smug and vindicated because they are totally "clean" of any gay desire. There many reasons that people can discriminate against homosexuals and self-hatred by homosexuals themselves is one very tiny fraction of what's involved. The worst kinds of homophobia, in my mind, are the polite kinds of unspoken disapproval that suffocate gay people and make them feel alienated on a day by day basis. If someone calls me a faggot, that's not as bad as someone just not inviting me to any company parties because I make straight people uncomfortable. "Faggot" angers me for a few seconds, but the slow and invisible alienation could cost me my whole career. If I start out by saying "homophobes are all repressed gays," then the straight person who feels uncomfortable with me (but won't say it out loud) will think, "I'm not doing anything wrong. I don't get turned on by gay guys at all. I'm perfect." And he'll be engaging in homophobia without realizing it.

Fifth, saying "homophobes are all repressed gays" sounds a little too much like blaming the victim to me.

J




In the link below, Peter Tatchell speaks about a research conducted by an acclaimed US psychologist which suggests that 80 per cent of men who are homophobic have secret homosexual feelings.

This finding lends scientific support to the long-standing speculation that those who shout the loudest against homosexuality have something to hide.

The research results were published in the prestigious Journal of Abnormal Psychology, with the backing of the American Psychological Association.

In tests conducted by Prof. Henry E Adams of the University of Georgia, homophobic men who said they were exclusively heterosexual were shown gay sex videos.

Four out of five became sexually aroused by the homoerotic imagery, as recorded by a plethysmograph . . . a calibrated band fitted around the penis, which measures any enlargement.

Prof. Adams says his research shows that most homophobes "demonstrate significant sexual arousal to homosexual erotic stimuli" suggesting that homophobia is a form of "latent homosexuality where persons are either unaware of - or deny - their homosexual urges":

http://icnewcastle.icnetwork.co.uk/sundaysun/news/tm_objectid=16667347&method=full&siteid=50081&headline=was-our-ken-telling-it-straight--name_page.html

[bigregory]

Yes we are in danger.
I had no idea that all my posts here were listed on google.
I'm not losing sleep over it because via the computer and meeting people in the g.l.b.t. web sites i have not only gained friends but have obtained work.
I am happy to report that over 50% of my clients are g.l.b.t.
The down side is that living in a small town i have also lost work from working for "those" people
Bashing is the only thing that scares me.
I find the acceptance of a gay lifestyle is accepted more by the upper class people than from the Joe working class(me).
If you are worried i think with prudence you can keep your bio on-line to a minimum and go about life care free.
The google thing still freaks me out... :eek:

[Driver 8]

I've noticed a trap that comes with the theory that "homophobes are all repressed homosexuals."
I agree (though I also agree that repressed same-sex desires are probably a factor for some homophobes.) To everything Johnny said, I'd add:

Six: By recasting homophobia as a completely personal problem, we ignore the other societal factors - churches, general fear that society is changing too fast, rigid gender roles and condemnation of men who aren't manly enough and women who aren't womanly enough, and all the other much larger beliefs and trends that fuel homophobia.

Seven: It doesn't seem very useful, to me, for explaining women who are prejudiced against gays, or men who are prejudiced against lesbians.

[taz67156]

I still don't think there is any danger with the site and if there is then drew should find out about it so he can try to help keep everyone safe but for us all to be safe when it comes to the profile I think the best thing is to just keep our real names off the profile and let only who you want to know your real name.

taz67156