Do you believe in God/a spirituality/a higher power, or not?

[pole_smoker]

If so why? If not, why?

[elian]

When I was growing up thinking I was gay in a rural, conservative area "God" was the only thing I had to confide in. Those weren't good times for me, I was angry, lonely, suicidal..I just did not feel like I fit in. You can say that maybe it was a brain doing anything it could to ensure its own survival but I knew that despite what other people around me thought about "gay" people and having to witness the unkindness of people toward others I loved I knew that the divine loved me and that love never faltered. I have had too many strange co-incidences in my life for there to NOT be -some- sort of force that at least responds to our actions, perhaps we just don't have instruments to measure it yet.

Margaret Atwood put it this way - Human beings love stories, which do you think is more exciting - the story with the tiger in it, or the one without the tiger?

Questioning my sexuality made me question a lot of other beliefs as well, when I got to college I spent a lot of time in the library studying (real) history, science, technology, philosophy, mythology just enough to be dangerous. My belief is a combination of a bunch of things.. Christianity and Gnosticism, Buddhism and Humanism, quantum theory, Tao/Dao/Zen, Wicca - I even take heed of the great atheist question, "Isn't -just- this world enough? There isn't another one, so we ought to appreciate this one and work to make this one as good as we can."

I find that sometimes the supposed conflicts, like the one between science and religion aren't really conflicts, in fact they work to reinforce each other. The universe is sort of tricky isn't it? Even if you find out the answer to one question, you are left with - more questions..

Of course I have always been the sort of kid who tries to fit the square peg into the round hole. The funny thing is, if you have a block plane and big enough hammer, sometimes it works.

One thing I could never do is feel comfortable in a faith that does not encourage people to ask questions, most people are naturally curious. I don't begrudge people as much as I begrudge institutions.

Kabbalah was sort of neat, I mean here are these men from one of the three great pillars of western/Abrahamic thought, and they basically devote their lives to studying the Torah from a perspective that is more akin to eastern religious philosophy.. Sorry, but the idea that the divine as the ultimate force of bestowal and that humanity is ruled by ego just sort of clicked with me..it makes logical sense to my mind.

Rick Warren did the same thing with "The Purpose Driven Life" - I decided to read a few chapters of this book because some of my friends really thought it was the new hotness some years back..what do I find but that someone has again taken eastern religious concepts and rearranged the language to make it more Westernized.

I could grumble about that but my view is that we are all on our own path, sometimes we travel together, sometimes apart. Sometimes comparing yourself to another person is the wrong thing to do. If there is a divine force I think it is smart enough to appear to each person in the way that is appropriate for that person at that place and time.

Do I believe that "God" is some angry old white man with a long beard, sitting on a throne raining down punishment on his petulant children? No.. My relationship with the divine became a lot better when I stopped thinking of the divine that way, and started viewing it as a force of bestowal that ultimately wants to see me reach my full potential.

The minister at my church starts each service by saying, "This is the day that is given to us" - and I think that's the truth - regardless of what you believe you should make the most of it. Sometimes the puritans seem to lose sight of the fact that we did not come here to be prisoners..

This blog contains some things, mostly things that were created by other people - that I found inspirational as I was trying to find my own way. http://smallsphere.wordpress.com

Everyone knows Woz was the engineer - but I sort of like these videos too..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYfNvmF0Bqw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkTf0LmDqKI

"Past the religious seeker as he prayed came the crippled and the beggar and the beaten. And seeing them…he cried, “Great God, how is it that a loving creator can see such things and yet do nothing about them?”…God said, “I did do something. I made you.” -Sufi Teaching

[pole_smoker]

Thank you for posting those video links.

I made this topic because the media is going on about how Stephen Hawking finally said he's Atheist.

He has basically said that before in previous interviews; but now he finally said the obvious.

http://www.cnet.com/news/stephen-hawking-makes-it-clear-there-is-no-god/

That's his choice but how would he know? He also believes in an 11-dimension multi-verse.

But I think he is doing this because he wants to be the spokesperson for Atheism in the UK ever since Richard Dawkins went off the deep end with his comments about rape.

I think it's amusing when Atheists shove their non-belief down people's throats, and then they think that they are radically different than the religious extremists/fundamentalists they dislike.

[Loki1]

Seems illogical to believe in something I can't sense. Touch, taste, see, hear, smell or other. Go to any children's cancer ward, then try to explain and justify that suffering, in the name of..............

[elian]

Yes, I think I've known that Stephen Hawking was a atheist for a long time now, ever since they put out that TV special about the singularity.

I don't begrudge atheists their faith, just that same as I don't begrudge anyone else..as long as the person isn't causing direct harm to themselves or others. One thing that I don't abide is people who abuse their faith to subjugate others...and I do believe it is possible to have a personal belief in a philosophy, but not use it to harm others.

Then again I have always thought that religion should be inclusive, not exclusive. Some people have a huge problem with that, but the thing is having to question my sexuality forced me to have an open mind, it forced me to live with a little discomfort over "not knowing the answer" to the point where I had to accept that it's okay not to know the "right" answer whether I wanted to or not.

“It seems to me a very difficult thing to put into words the beliefs we hold and what they make you do in your life.

I don’t know whether I believe in a future life. I believe that all that you go through here must have some value, therefore there must be some reason. And there must be some “going on.” How exactly that happens I’ve never been able to decide. There is a future—that I’m sure of. But how, that I don’t know. And I came to feel that it didn’t really matter very much because whatever the future held you’d have to face it when you came to it, just as whatever life holds you have to face it exactly the same way. And the important thing was that you never let down doing the best that you were able to do—it might be poor because you might not have very much within you to give, or to help other people with, or to live your life with. But as long as you did the very best that you were able to do, then that was what you were put here to do and that was what you were accomplishing by being here.

All human beings have failings, all human beings have needs and temptations and stresses. Men and women who live together through long years get to know one another’s failings; but they also come to know what is worthy of respect and admiration in those they live with and in themselves. If at the end one can say, “This man used to the limit the powers that God granted him; he was worthy of love and respect and of the sacrifices of many people, made in order that he might achieve what he deemed to be his task,” then that life has been lived well and there are no regrets.”

-Eleanor Roosevelt

[pole_smoker]

I have friends who are atheist but they are not as extreme as Dawkins, Hawking, etc.

They do not care if other people believe in a religion or spirituality, they don't call people who are religious or spiritual stupid or claim they believe in fairy tales, they don't care about the 10 commandments being shown in public in a courthouse, "In God we trust" being put on money here in the United States, or public things done for Christmast/Hanukkah/Kwanzza/Winter Solstice, and other nonsense extreme atheists tend to do.

[darkeyes]

Extreme? in what way are Hawking and Dawkins extreme? Do they insist on others believing as they do? Nope, not at all... they try and convince others that there is no God, but then I do that. But we don't demand... just as many of the religious try and convince atheists and agnostics of God. Most of them aren't extreme either... being an atheist may be extreme in that we have no doubt in the absence of God.. the true believer is on the other extreme in that they believe in a God or God's and have no doubts... but the vast majority cannot be considered extreme on either side of the argument... and of course there are many who hold views in between.. and many of them are far more dogmatic, extreme and hypocritical than either Hawking or Dawkins..:eek2:

[Gearbox]

The difference between Hawkings & Dawkings stating that there is no God, and Cliff Richard & Pope stating that there is a God, is that the former pair have the impression of scientific reasoning behind them, which a great many will fall for willingly.
The same is true of religious scientists who claim scientific facts about there being a God.....their particular concept of a God.
Truth is, we can gather 'evidence' which may lead us to a belief or disbelief in a God, but can not KNOW either way in a scientific manner.
It's a personal belief and view of the great scheme of things while we are 'here' as who we are.

Who believes in the 11D reality and dark matter? Dare you claim that either is a load of bolox? None of us can observe either, yet are expected to take as fact coz clever peeps told us so.
The same clever clogs told us that the universe worked perfectly well BEFORE there was a HUGE prob, and now we are told it works perfectly well again.......IF such a thing as dark matter existed.:rolleyes: They've seen it now! It's official. So we can rest assured that the clever clogs are gaining understanding.:rolleyes:

I believe in a 'God', but also believe in Humans. I feking KNOW what bolox Humans can believe no matter what their IQ.....that is a FACT! Self included.:tongue:

[nomorenomore]

I am kind of in the boat with Elian. I was raised on a path to be a Catholic priest. I was a Youth Minister for a few years and even made it to the Chancellory to interview for the seminary. Unfortunately, or fortunately, as you will, my Irish wit got the best of me. When the monsignor asked how I felt about women, I recalled that Tommy Tune song from Finan's Rainbow, If I can't be with the one I love, I'll love the one I'm with. Bzzt wrong answer. Was probably a good thing because I didn't fully embrace Catholic teachings. I would later go on to learn other wisdoms whether from Druidism, Buddhism, Hindu teachings, Wiccan, or just my own connections to Deity. One of my favorite teachings is a Hindu teaching, "There are many paths up the mountain. The only one who is not reaching the top, is the one who is running around and around telling everyone else they are on the wrong path". This helped me to embrace that others may not follow my beliefs, but they are on their own journey, so rather than trying to convert them to my thinking, I allow or sometimes help them on theirs. That is the great part of learning other paths, you also may be able to help others. In learning and giving back, you become the Bodhisattva.
Now, also like Elian, I have learned a little of Quantum Physics and Quantum Mechanics, as well as shamanism and other indigenous healing ways. I too have found that science in some ways ends up proving what elders have been trying to teach. The Lakota have a saying, Mitakuye Oyasin, we are all related. They treated everything as a relation. When you watch the movie, I forgot the name, with the blue people in it. You see how they react when the animal had to be needlessly killed. They say a prayer over it. Life is precious. Well, Quantum Physics shows that we are indeed all connected.

[Annika L]

I find it fascinating that atheists are just as sure that they're right as are people who believe in a god.

Sheesh, people, can't we *all* accept that not one of us knows a bloody thing about what's *really* going on? We *cannot* know the nature of the universe or who or what created it, precisely *because* we are part of it.

You may *believe* what makes sense to you to believe, and based on our upbringing and our sense of our personal experience, it may make more or less sense to believe in one or more gods. But to say that you *know* *anything*, or to have any confidence level that you're right is just self-delusion and hubris. To explain your reasoning or experiences to others makes sense to me...it's part of what we do as humans with regard to *any* topic ("hey, you should consider stopping smoking, because I've lost 5 loved ones to that habit, and there's loads of scientific evidence that suggests it's deadly").

But to get "holier than thou" (or "anti-holier" for atheists, perhaps) and talk about people being *stupid* or *nonsensical* for their beliefs says more (at least to me) about *your* insecurities in your beliefs (i.e., your need for validation in the form of converts) than it does about the so-called stupid or nonsensical person.

[darkeyes]

I have always accepted the beliefs of others, not least the religious... I may think folk mistaken for their belief in a God or Gods, but have always defended their right to believe as they do. Indeed, I and other athiests and indeed agnostics have historically more usually given believers more consideration and defended their right to believe the things they do far more than they have us... :)

A few times on site I have gotten into some bother for saying that belief in religion is the belief in fairy tales.. I still believe that but will never ridicule anyone for believing those "fairy tales".. it is not a fairy tale to them after all. Those who believe in such tales as part of their religion may be foolish and believe in childish things, but it is neither foolish nor is it childish to them... and it is, as far as I know, no crime to believe foolishly even if it is.

I believe as I believe... when dead, I may be shown the error of my ways.. who can say? Intellectually I can't see it, but until then Iike ne 1 else can't say and even then believing as I do, will I know? Yet I have no doubt I am right.. many think otherwise. Good for them.. I hope they r right... everything inside me, my entire being tells me they are wrong!!!

[kayt.q]

I do ... but my belief in God predates my awareness of my bisexuality. My husband was the first to tell me straight up that he knows that is we split, I'd never be straight again.

I don't know how to reconcile my sexuality and my faith. But I leave that for another time.

[robin39]

Yes. I believe!

[pole_smoker]

I believe as I believe... when dead, I may be shown the error of my ways.. who can say? Intellectually I can't see it, but until then Iike ne 1 else can't say and even then believing as I do, will I know? Yet I have no doubt I am right.. many think otherwise. Good for them.. I hope they r right... everything inside me, my entire being tells me they are wrong!!!
Are you sure you're not an agnostic?

This is an example of how I mean that Dawkins and now Hawking are anti-religion fundamentalists/extremists.

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/dec/26/peter-higgs-richard-dawkins-fundamentalism


In a recent interview with al-Jazeera (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0Xn60Zw03A), Dawkins implied that being raised a Catholic was worse for a child than physical abuse by a priest.

There's also an example of Dawkins' Islamophobia or his hatred of women who choose to be traditional in their dress in Afghanistan, Iran, and other Muslim countries.
http://www.loonwatch.com/2014/03/let-the-fate-of-richard-dawkins-be-a-lesson-to-you-all-twitter-brings-out-the-worst-in-humankind/

Then there was his attention seeking comment about rape and how (in his opinion) "date rape isn't as bad as stranger rape via knifepoint".

In Dawkins opinion, there is nothing higher or worth listening to than himself or his opinions.

He seems to have gone off the deep end or gone senile.

I can understand why Hawking is Atheist since he has had a degenerative disease for most of his life, cannot speak, cannot walk, or perform most functions like the majority of people easily can.

[Randypan]

I believe there is no definitive proof one way or the other. People believe what they want. No one has any business arguing a belief. If it is true belief then there can be no argument.

[Jorja]

Seems illogical to believe in something I can't sense. Touch, taste, see, hear, smell or other. Go to any children's cancer ward, then try to explain and justify that suffering, in the name of..............

I can remember as a child being abused, physically, mentally, sexually and emotionally. Broken and in despair who do you go to when you are unsure, GOD. Did he answer me? No. Did he help me? No. Did he punish my abuser's? No. I have watched friends get sick and die, friends and loved ones killed, children suffering...people prayed for them but guess what?? Nothing...they suffered, they died, they let sadness in this world. And, for what?? When my best friends four year old daughter drowned because Grandma wasn't watching guess who was the first person she blamed??!! GOD...she insisted it was God's decision to take that beautiful child at four years old because, "It was her time"! Who decides when its time? Why do pedophiles get to live out their days happily molesting our children and God decides they can?? I know and love many religious people and we opt to not talk about it, why do they drink, swear, smoke, have sex before marriage, deem themselves christian, just non practicing and still believe...don't use religion as an excuse to do what the so called bible says are sins, live your life to the fullest and maybe they will 're-make' an even newer testament to the bible and you will have something new to lead you in life. I do not believe in God for two simple reasons, 1) there is no actual proof he/she exists or ever did and 2) I asked, pleaded, begged for help and God turned his back...

[Ebonybifemme7]

I don't believe but I understand why others do believe. If a person believes in God then thats good, if not its good too. I'm an atheist, but I'm not anti religious. I'll go to a church. But I will let people know that I dont believe in God.

[Annika L]

I believe there is no definitive proof one way or the other.

That's not a belief; that's a fact. And that fact is precisely why there's so damned much debate.

[AGuyIKnow]

I believe that some people need something to believe in. I'm not one of them.

I don't have a problem with anybody that does believe in something. I only ask that they don't force their beliefs on me. I'm also willing to discuss either or both sides, as long as everyone remains civil.

I don't even mind talking to Mormons or anyone else that comes to my door to discuss their religion. I've never had a problem with it either. We usually end up agreeing to disagree.

[Melody Dean]

I believe that The Meaning of Life (for lack of a better term) is something so amazing and profound that the human mind will never be able to grasp it. So we make up things, like gods, to try and explain the unexplainable. To me, that means both sides are simultaneously right and wrong, because it's something that's so undefinable.

From Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: "I think that the chances of finding out what's actually going on are so absurdly remote that the only thing to do is to say, 'Hang the sense of it,' and keep yourself busy. I'd much rather be happy than right any day. "

[cuttin2dachase]

Radical atheists, fundamentalist Christians and non-Christians of other faiths or religions, please stop reading at the end of this paragraph unless you are open minded, lest you be pissed off or otherwise offended. The following is my personal belief only. It is not my intent to preach or offend anyone or try to change their beliefs.

I know with no doubt in either my heart or my mind that a divine, omnipotent, omniscient higher power and intelligence created the universe and all the living and non-living things in it. I choose to call that entity "God". I just don't see any alternate explanation for how the universe could have just willed itself into existence or appeared out of nothingness without a divine plan and divine action. Why/how am I so sure about it? It's a simple thing called personal faith. It makes my belief in God and love of God and appreciation of His many blessings unshakeable and constant. I pray to God and give thanks to Him every day of my life and it brings me comfort and peace.

To me the most likely way of creation was God snapping his fingers to set off the Big Bang and BAM ! This created all matter and energy that exists now or ever will exist, from which all life eventually evolved according to His plan. Being raised in a religious home and regularly attending Sunday School and church, I was taught to believe that God took 6 days in creating everything, including humanity's common ancestors, Adam and Eve, plus all the animals and plants, much as an artist or sculptor would take time to create a masterpiece. As I became older and learned science in general and physics and astronomy in particular, I began to see some Biblical content as factoidal. The Bible was written by mortal humans and I came to think that it's very possible that some things in it were embellished, exaggerated or even fabricated. I do believe that in most cases the writers of the Bible were inspired by God and wrote what they perceived to be the truth. Humans to this day are still apt to do these same things when they really don't have a clue or a rational explanation for why things are what they are or how history unfolded the way it has. I was told I should and would surely go to hell for deviating from the party line and for not believing every single word in the Bible. Heck, I even questioned some of the things I was taught about Jesus and His life and death and purpose on earth and formed different beliefs and opinions. That right there qualifies me for a double eternity in hell according to lots of fellow Christians. It's why I moved away from organized Christianity, particularly the Southern Baptist brand of it. I became a non-denominational, non churchgoing Christian who is comfortable in my personal relationship with God and Jesus. I fear no retribution for exercising my God-given free will to think or for my skepticism about some traditional teachings. In the end it doesn't really matter how everything came to be or how God went about it or how much time it took Him. The result is the same. This beautiful universe and everything in it are truly God's masterpiece.

[Coastocoast]

I am a born again Agnostic

[void()]

That's not a belief; that's a fact. And that fact is precisely why there's so damned much debate.

It is his belief, a belief in a fact. Frankly, think I follow a similar belief. No proof either way so far. No argument there.

[Michele Mayelle]

IN ANSWER TO Lanotme
VERY well said.
My own opinion, no religion--no wars. I think religious people that believe in "God'" are really worshiping the Devil. WHY? Just look back through history, or even the present day to see just how many people have died & are still dying, in the name of "God". Today, Sunni's are killing Shiites--Shiites are killing Sunni's, & they are believers of the SAME religion. Jews are killing Muslims--Muslims are killing Jews--Catholics are killing Protestants--Protestants are killing Catholics--Muslims are killing Christians--Christians are killing Muslims. All in the name of "God". Once again--no religion--no wars. All of the above are indisputable FACTS

[Cursubm]

I asked myself "If the God(s) are really omniescent, ominclairvoyent, omnipresent, then why do the God(s) allow so much suffering and injustice in the world?". Maybe the God(s) do or do not exist, but are not all powerful. You could be a God to a goldfish in a bowl, but not a supreme being in the whole cosmos.

[pole_smoker]

IN ANSWER TO Lanotme
VERY well said.
My own opinion, no religion--no wars. I think religious people that believe in "God'" are really worshiping the Devil. WHY? Just look back through history, or even the present day to see just how many people have died & are still dying, in the name of "God". Today, Sunni's are killing Shiites--Shiites are killing Sunni's, & they are believers of the SAME religion. Jews are killing Muslims--Muslims are killing Jews--Catholics are killing Protestants--Protestants are killing Catholics--Muslims are killing Christians--Christians are killing Muslims. All in the name of "God". Once again--no religion--no wars. All of the above are indisputable FACTS

Really? What was the theological dispute behind WWI? What religion were the Nazis? How about Mao? What religious dogma propelled his "Great Leap Forward" and the "Cultural Revolution"? And Stalin, what heresy was he suppressing? What about Pol pot? What about Emperor Hirohito and how he and the Japanese military killed lots of Chinese, Americans, Koreans, and pretty much everyone they did not like?

People who blame religion or spirituality for wars, etc. or "all the evils of the world", have not actually studied history.

They're actually fighting for land, power, etc. and not necessarily religion or a spirituality.

[darkeyes]

Really? What was the theological dispute behind WWI? What religion were the Nazis? How about Mao? What religious dogma propelled his "Great Leap Forward" and the "Cultural Revolution"? And Stalin, what heresy was he suppressing? What about Pol pot? What about Emperor Hirohito and how he and the Japanese military killed lots of Chinese, Americans, Koreans, and pretty much everyone they did not like?

People who blame religion or spirituality for wars, etc. or "all the evils of the world", have not actually studied history.

They're actually fighting for land, power, etc. and not necessarily religion or a spirituality.I agree.. war happens for a multitude of reasons..religion is often one.. or an excuse so that ordinary people fight for what is altogether really a different reason.. war happens for many reasons. Religion just happens to be one. Land, power, wealth, resources, ideology others...simple greed! Xenophobia and patriotism too...

[Melody Dean]

.. or an excuse so that ordinary people fight for what is altogether really a different reason..

I think you've hit the nail on the head there.

[Annika L]

Seems illogical to believe in something I can't sense. Touch, taste, see, hear, smell or other. Go to any children's cancer ward, then try to explain and justify that suffering, in the name of..............

Interesting philosophy...so you don't believe in atoms, then, or subatomic particles? Or carbon monoxide?

If you went deaf, would you also cease to believe in music and sound generally?

Just fascinating the differences in what we see as being logical vs. illogical.

[darkeyes]

Interesting philosophy...so you don't believe in atoms, then, or subatomic particles? Or carbon monoxide?

If you went deaf, would you also cease to believe in music and sound generally?

Just fascinating the differences in what we see as being logical vs. illogical.... not a fair comparison, Annika.... in the 1st instance we have scientific instruments to detect and even show us the most amazingly small particles.. some particles remain theory and there are believers, agnostics and atheists for each of them... and gasses we can detect too.. and having once been able to hear, the loss of hearing won't too often make many unbelievers in sound or music...

..however, as yet, no 1 has been able to detect a God or God's as yet and provide real evidence to its/their existence scientifically or in any other way. That remains a matter of faith..:)

[Coastocoast]

Belief in god and an afterlife makes death more palatable forthe survivors and those contemplating their own inevitable death.

[elian]

Not picking on your comment directly but it reminded me of this interview...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124582959

..this was interesting too..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mFRUGDY8Ao

Gnostics do believe the god of this world is the demiurge..dominate over this world but not the ultimate force in thie universe


I asked myself "If the God(s) are really omniescent, ominclairvoyent, omnipresent, then why do the God(s) allow so much suffering and injustice in the world?". Maybe the God(s) do or do not exist, but are not all powerful. You could be a God to a goldfish in a bowl, but not a supreme being in the whole cosmos.

[Annika L]

... not a fair comparison, Annika.... in the 1st instance we have scientific instruments to detect and even show us the most amazingly small particles.. some particles remain theory and there are believers, agnostics and atheists for each of them... and gasses we can detect too.. and having once been able to hear, the loss of hearing won't too often make many unbelievers in sound or music...

..however, as yet, no 1 has been able to detect a God or God's as yet and provide real evidence to its/their existence scientifically or in any other way. That remains a matter of faith..:)

Hi Fran. I'm not arguing for or against belief in god(s) (just to be clear...as I implied in my first post, I don't believe in such arguments).

But I stand by my comparison. What matter if *somebody* claims to have seen atoms or have evidence of subatomic particles or colorless odorless gases? People also claim to have experienced evidence of god(s), or even experienced god(s) directly. So some bloke says he saw one particle in two places at the same time. Lanotme says it's illogical to believe in things he hasn't sensed...I daresay *he* hasn't seen, heard, smelled, tasted or felt these things. Nor have I, granted, but I believe in them, and don't consider it illogical not to...precisely because of the evidence you speak of. Similarly, I don't consider it *illogical* to believe in god(s), because of the evidence others cite (again, to be clear, I also don't consider it "only logical" to believe because of someone else's experience...just not illogical...the fact is that there are things in this universe that we cannot sense...or at least cannot yet sense...just like carbon monoxide existed even before humans were aware of it).

[darkeyes]

..the logic of one is anything but to another, Annika I will give u that. It makes me wonder sometimes if logic, or lack if it, really exist..:love87:

[mas8092]

Extreme? in what way are Hawking and Dawkins extreme? Do they insist on others believing as they do? Nope, not at all... they try and convince others that there is no God, but then I do that. But we don't demand... just as many of the religious try and convince atheists and agnostics of God. Most of them aren't extreme either... being an atheist may be extreme in that we have no doubt in the absence of God.. the true believer is on the other extreme in that they believe in a God or God's and have no doubts... but the vast majority cannot be considered extreme on either side of the argument... and of course there are many who hold views in between.. and many of them are far more dogmatic, extreme and hypocritical than either Hawking or Dawkins..:eek2:

You have a point. Unfortunately, we live in a world full of extremes. In the US, we have atheists who want to impose their will on institutions which have a Christian bias via the court system. In the Middle East, we have fanatics who want to impose their will by cutting people's head off. This is a politically incorrect opinion, but I believe that savagery in the name of Islam is a cancer in this world. Our Western Culture of fights via Rule of Law is far superior ethically. Sure, in the West, we have our squabbles, but I haven't seen the Atheists out killing folks or the Christians mutilating and subjugating women on a scale beyond the occasional sociopathic nut job. In the West, we have the luxury of debating the fine points of Gay Marriage or Civil Unions. On the scale of extremes, they are a debate about opinions. For gays and women in Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc., the debate is real and life or death.

[oralboy]

their is no god ,never was a god ,young people are taken to church by parents is the way they are brainwashed. in the early days of civilization man created a so called god. people are real fools ,they believe crooked politicians & dictators .

[pole_smoker]

their is no god ,never was a god ,young people are taken to church by parents is the way they are brainwashed. in the early days of civilization man created a so called god. people are real fools ,they believe crooked politicians & dictators .

Some people are simply not spiritual or attuned to spirituality at all.

People who do happen to have had spiritual or religious experiences are not stupid or "brainwashed".

Carl Jung on God:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ25Ai__FYU

[cuttin2dachase]

Sure, there's been natural disasters, wars, disease and suffering, tragic accidents and all manner of evil people and institutions doing evil to others throughout humankind's existence. In addition to being a God of infinite love of His creations, He is also a God of chaos. It began at the instant He set off the Big Bang. He knew before He did it everything that was going to happen throughout eternity, but still pulled the trigger. Would we be better off if He'd changed His mind and said nope, not gonna do it? Hell no....we would never have existed. He stepped back and let nature take its chaotic course, but our design was such that we all have free will and wondrous brain to avail ourselves of our free will. He does intervene on a daily basis for His own reasons. When He does, it's called a miracle. Millions of miracles occur every day for millions of people. If you are a positive, optimistic person who believes you make your own luck and happiness and see a glass as half-full, you most likely see miracles every day even if you've been thru times when you or a loved one needed a miracle and didn't get it. If you are a negative, pessimistic person and believe that it's the responsibility of God or other humans to make you happy, you see the same glass as half-empty. A miracle could bite you on your ass and you'd be oblivious to it or complain it was about time one was sent your way. It makes no sense to say you don't believe in a higher power because that same higher power that you don't believe in lets bad things happen and has never done anything for you. He did everything for you. My vision of an afterlife is a combination of traditional Christian concept of heaven and doing unto others with the Buddhist and Hindu concepts beliefs of nirvana, karma and reincarnation and (again) doing unto others as you would have them do unto you. I don't believe in hell because I don't believe God punishes his beloved creatures with everlasting torment after death. I rather think He reclaims souls, keeps some in heaven or in a perpetual state of nirvana and send others back for another try at doing good and being happy rather than doing wrong or evil and being miserable.

[elian]

People claim to be rational but I have seen even the most logical people "reason" any conclusion they want to.

Something strange happened to me, I used to be very logical. Once I realized there was a whole world of social causes out there I became a lot more driven by empathy.

I choose to partially experience this world through transcendent feelings but I am also pragmatic...and I have just as much interest in what agnostics, atheists and humanists have to say because my belief is open ended, I draw inspiration from many things.

My idea of a really interesting dinner conversation would be to sit across from Margaret Atwood, Jeanette Winterson and Jerri Ryan all at the same table.

I still laugh a lot at the scene in the movie Dracula 2000 where Jerri Ryan plays a reporter in a backwoods town - she says to the camera man, "Are you SURE you're getting my TITS!!?" ...like you just know wearing spandex for the entire run of Star Trek Voyager that is exactly what she wanted to say out loud but probably couldn't..LOL.


..the logic of one is anything but to another, Annika I will give u that. It makes me wonder sometimes if logic, or lack if it, really exist..:love87:

[innaminka]

Religion is a human construct firstly to allay the fear of what happens after death, and as a path to power.
"The most powerful person in a religious society is the one who says, I can speak to God (or whoever) - you can't."

I've been a total non-believer since before i was 10, however I usually avoid religious based arguments. I have my belief, I'll let others keep their's unless they try to foist it on me.

[James72]

Like some of the founding fathers of the USA i am a Deists

[oralboy]

that pole-smoker has been smoking to much wacky tobacco.

[pole_smoker]

that pole-smoker has been smoking to much wacky tobacco.
Nice try. I don't use drugs including cannabis or hash. I don't even drink alcohol.

[12voltyV2.0]

When it comes to the existence of "god"---I fall in that state that god is something that cannot be either definitively proven or disproven.

I do not believe that the nature of god, should "it" exist, is very much different from the way that most religions state that god is. I don't think that god is some being sitting up on his cloud throne making all kinds of declarations, demands and what not and he really doesn't demand total blind obedience to him----I am more of the mind to say that "god" did not create the universes, but came about as a result of the universes developing a sentience and an is underlying, unifying energy force. "God" has no gender, no ego--it simply is.

I can say I am not at all a religious person--in fact I have come to reject all religiosity and am fast coming to view religion as a mostly negative element, not a positive one. I think that in the times that our modern religions came to dominate all facets of life----life was pretty damn nasty for all but a few and it seems that we have elements of the three main Abrahamic religions, that want to go back to those nastier, brutish times.

At times, religions have been forces for good, but like so many things in today's world---they have been warped out of shape, into something that is actually a negative thing and if we were to go down the path that some want by going back to some very radically fundamentalist ways of being---it will be the end of us all.

Life for most people in such a dystopian theocratic future, as philosopher John Hobbs might have said, would be: "Nasty, brutish and short."

I don't want any part of a world of this sort, one that would be much along the lines of what Margaret Atwood described in her novel, "The Handmaid's Tale."

No thanks--to me that will be hell, not heaven.