Why I am a exile..... pansexual in a world of sexuality....

[Long Duck Dong]

I I came across this blog by a person...... and it had me intrigued

http://radicalbi.wordpress.com/2011/09/27/why-i-identify-as-bisexual-and-not-pansexual/


I am pansexual myself, I use the term bisexual but I am actually pansexual... it basically means that I do not really see people in terms of gender or sexuality, tho I do post in a manner that makes it easier for people to relate to what I am saying because its easier and less confusing than posting exactly how I see people in my own mind.....

I see people in terms of partners, companions, lovers and people.... I do not really see people in terms of hetero, lesbian, gay, bi, pan, queer, male, female, intersex, trans, gender queer, gender neutral, gender omgwtfbbq and part of the reason for that, is the animosity between and towards different people is at best, childish and mature..... its like watching kids in a sandpit fighting over the toys and trying to be king and queen of the sandpit.... when the reality is there is enuf room in the sandpit for everybody but there is also the rest of the playground as well for people to enjoy and without the other people around us, the playground is pretty empty.....we can not have it both ways.....

the pansexual community is basically one that is not really male and female attraction only, it can also embrace the trans / shemale / lady boys ( they are the T in the LGBT... and while their T is their gender identity, they can also be LGB or straight in sexuality )

the bisexual community is basically one that is male and female attraction only, however there are a lot of bi people that enjoy pansexual aspects with their attractions and interests.....

in reading the blog, i get the distinct impression that the author wants the bisexual community to expand outward to embrace the pansexual community as a way of driving out the cisgenderism / assimilation style thinking.... and the first thing that comes to mind, is that they are trying to assimilate multiple communities into one while trying to stop the assimilation of multiple communities into one......and not stopping to realise that they risk creating 4 communities.... the 2 pan and bi communities that are just happy to live, love and leave the BS at the door.... and the 2 pan and bi communities that will fight against embracing people outside of their communities for daring to be different....

incidentally the intersex people have been assimilated under the trans umbrella by the trans community but in fact the trans community do not welcome us as trans people because our bodies are naturally born the way they are.... and transgender are not..... ironically many intersex people have had to have surgery to make their bodies into one or the other gender due to medical complications.....

why do we have to fight so much over something so simple as the fact that we are just normal people that are diverse and try to control and own labels and oppose the other communities that are very much a part of our own lives and our existence....... its like shitting in the sandpit to drive other people off then going and playing in the same sandpit and demanding they come play with us because without the other people to play with, there is too many toys and fuck all fun.....

humanity is a unusual bunch of people, we fight in the name of peace, against those who are fighting to protect their own beliefs and lifestyles, while chanting that its all about equal rights while trying to take rights off people......

there have been times that I have asked myself why we can just not all be friends...... and today, I recieved a picture... and promptly added a new label
Intersex, pansexual, mentally ill, Exile......

26464





Hugs to all the Exiles who want to share the swings and slides, the roundabouts, climbing bars, rope climbs, balls bats and other stuff of the playground........ just watch for the sandpit, I think somebody shit in it.....

[Hypersexual11]

I imagine if we were able to see back to our beginnings, the way we are as humans would make more sense to us. I don't know if we missed an important evolutionary step or are just designed to be how we are. MOST of the time, you can sit with A PERSON and have a civil discussion and find that there is a lot of common ground and understanding between 2 people. For some reason, once we get into a group, that all goes to shit. I gave up decades ago wishing we could all just get along. We can't. We thrive on sameness and thrive on hating differences. It's why I never understood coming out as bi, or pansexual to anyone except those closest. We are exiled in our mind already. Coming out simply moves the exile from inside, to outside where there is a lot more pain.

[Long Duck Dong]

the pic came from a bisexual friend that runs a open arms LGBT group.... come in, say hi, have a cuppa, have a chat, we are all friends type group... so its a positive term in the way that its used..... kinda like we are here to have a drink a chat, a hug and kiss, if you want to hook up with somebody respect their right to say yes or no... and apparently its going well....

its run like a community group that meets at a different house every month and that has helped diffuse a lot of issues...because there is the respect the house, the home and the people in it understanding that may not exist in some generic community centers..... and its also run with the idea that you may not disagree with the sexuality but get to know the person behind the sexuality......

apparently they had a strip poker night where you stripped down to the most outlandish underwear you had.....and one gay guy who was very hairy, shaved one of his legs bare and wore a fish net stocking on one leg and on the other leg they wore a sock in the bi colours.....he lost a poker hand and had to kiss one of the ladies who described him as a very good kisser, even tho at the age of 53, he has never kissed a female.........

that to me, is awesome.... fun.... and the type of community I want to hang out with....and if that is what it means to be a exile.... then yes, I am proud to be one

[tenni]

I have agreed with Biradical previously. What seems to bother me is I wonder if there is inference that to be attracted to CSImales and CSIfemales is being looked down on. I can understand her desire to be inclusive to transexuals, genderqueer and those not fitting a gender binary. I can understand that a person (genderqueer) who does not subscribe to conventional gender distinctions but identifies with neither, both, or a combination of male and female genders. If it is acceptable for a bisexual to be only attracted to a body part (cock) or only sexually attracted to the same gender but not emotionally attracted to same gender, why is it not acceptable to be attracted to CSI genders but not transsexuals in transition? What I don't understand is the rejection of the term pansexual to mean being attracted to a person who does not subscribe to conventional gender distinctions but identifies with neither, both, or a combination of male and female genders?


It seems that bi radical is stating that Pansexuality is not a separate sexuality and should be ignored. Yet, I didn't read her alternative definition of bisexuality to include pansexuality or being attracted to genderqueer.

I think that being able to sit down and have conversations with genderqueer or transexuals is one thing. It is an entirely different issue to state that you must or should be attracted to transexuals in transition. In one of the links she discusses the exclusion of transexuals and genderqueer at conference. Again, I see that as possibly trans invisibility but not a sexual and or /emotional attraction issue?

This really gets a bit confusing and not related to my existence or sexuality.

Do bisexuals have enough of their plate dealing with biphobia and bi invisibility without expecting them to be attracted to transexuals to be considered bisexual. I may be misunderstanding her intent though.

[Annika L]

Do bisexuals have enough of their plate dealing with biphobia and bi invisibility without expecting them to be attracted to transexuals to be considered bisexual. I may be misunderstanding her intent though.[/SIZE][/FONT]

I's confuseroled. Tell me again...do we use words to describe people, or do we shape people by the words we use to describe them?

When we say "I'm bisexual", does that somehow obligate us to find certain groups of people attractive or sexually desirable? Or am I wrong in supposing that what it means is that I find some males (not every male) and some females (not every female) attractive or sexually desirable?

If to be bisexual I *don't* have to be attracted to every male and every female, then might it be possible that there are certain "classes" of people that I find myself not attracted to? Maybe there are males and females that I'd love to have sex with, and enjoy fantasizing about, but I'm really turned off by whites, blacks, Asians, red-heads, people with really short hair, men with hairy backs, women with DD breasts, and yes *eep* people who confuse my visceral sense of gender? I mean sure, it's my loss if so, and I may furthermore have difficulty finding a date (at least in some parts of the world)...but is it conceivable?

Or am I somehow defective as a bisexual unless *certain* groups are included in who I fantasize about? As far as I can tell, the only groups I'm *not allowed* to exclude in order to be bisexual are "men (generically)" and "women (generically)".

[Realist]

Jezzus! I've never had to struggle with myself, and others, as some of you do.

I like who I like and don't make any bones about it. I don't care what anyone else does, nor do I feel I have to convert anyone else to my way of thinking.

The amount of time spent verbalizing, intellectualizing, and arguing with each other's descriptions of different aspects of bisexuality, you could have been having a good time with someone!

OK, that's my contribution to this thread.

[Long Duck Dong]

lol annika.......you forgot the height and weight definitions, plus the country, left or right handed, color of eyes, are they cat or dog lovers, what season they perfer..... etc......

lol and people wonder why i have the * use the label you want to use, and lets go have a coffee / beer * thinking...... bisexual and bisexuality to me, can cover heteroflexible, MSM, WSW, sexuality unlimited, pansexual, omnisexual, sexuality undefined and one of my favs * I have a sexuality label ? *......they are just labels to me, labels that people use because they feel right or to escape the need to conform to a label definition...lol

[tenni]

Annika
I think that the point being made by biradical is bisexuals need to include transexuals in their attraction factor. We know that CIS men and CISwomen come with variations in hair colour, breast size, penis size, body shape variations. We know that individual attraction are factors wether the person is a CISmale or CISfemale. I suppose bi radical is stating that the male or female should include those who are not CIS..those that are not born with the genitals matching their gender identity? Are you (Annika & Realist) attracted to transwomen with breasts and a penis? Are you attracted to a transman with no breasts but an enlarged clitorus and a vagina? If not, does that mean that you are transphobic because bisexuals should be attracted to transpeople as much as they are attracted to CIS people?

[Annika L]

Annika
I think that the point being made by biradical is bisexuals need to include transexuals in their attraction factor. We know that CIS men and CISwomen come with variations in hair colour, breast size, penis size, body shape variations. We know that individual attraction are factors wether the person is a CISmale or CISfemale. I suppose bi radical is stating that the male or female should include those who are not CIS..those that are not born with the genitals matching their gender identity? Are you (Annika & Realist) attracted to transwomen with breasts and a penis? Are you attracted to a transman with no breasts but an enlarged clitorus and a vagina? If not, does that mean that you are transphobic because bisexuals should be attracted to transpeople as much as they are attracted to CIS people?

This may very well be the point. If so, I believe I've responded to it pretty thoroughly. Yes, we know that cis-people come in a variety of shapes, sizes, and hair colors. We also know that non-blonde people come in a variety of shapes, hair colors, and states of gender conformity. Does that mean that if I'm not attracted to blondes, I'm blonde-phobic? Cut it however you like, my statement above pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter.

And to make a very plain statement: I think it is ridiculous to say that a person is ____-phobic because they're bisexual and yet not attracted to ____. That kind of statement strikes me as coercive, rather than rooted in any kind of sense.

To me, *real* ____-phobia is when you *do* find the person attractive (physically, emotionally, whatever), but still won't have anything to do with them.

[tenni]

This may very well be the point. If so, I believe I've responded to it pretty thoroughly. Yes, we know that cis-people come in a variety of shapes, sizes, and hair colors. We also know that non-blonde people come in a variety of shapes, hair colors, and states of gender conformity. Does that mean that if I'm not attracted to blondes, I'm blonde-phobic? Cut it however you like, my statement above pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter.

And to make a very plain statement: I think it is ridiculous to say that a person is ____-phobic because they're bisexual and yet not attracted to ____. That kind of statement strikes me as coercive, rather than rooted in any kind of sense.

To me, *real* ____-phobia is when you *do* find the person attractive (physically, emotionally, whatever), but still won't have anything to do with them.

Annika
I see your point about a more generic point of view. If you find the face, body shape and other secondary sexual traits (i.e. on a man a beard and body hair..on a woman breasts) attractive but the mixing of secondary sex traits and primary sex organs unattractive (beards, body hair and vagina with an enlarged clitorus or breasts and a penis on one body unattractive) are you transphobic?

[Realist]

Tenni asked: "Are you (Annika & Realist) attracted to transwomen with breasts and a penis? Are you attracted to a transman with no breasts but an enlarged clitorus and a vagina? If not, does that mean that you are transphobic because bisexuals should be attracted to transpeople as much as they are attracted to CIS people?"


Hmmm, didn't think I ever said anything about this subject, one way, or another.

I've never known a transwoman, or transman, so I'm not sure if I'd be attracted to them. I've seen photos and videos of them and some do appeal to me, but until I'd get to know one, I can't say how I'd react. It's probably too late for me, now, anyway. I know a cross-dresser and his desires are a little strange to me, but I don't dislike him, or am particularly for, or against, his life-style. I just accept him for who is is, and that's it for me. I usually don't "think a thing to death".

My intimate experiences have been mostly with gay/ bisexual males and straight/bisexual females. I've loved a few of each in my day. I don't think I have any phobias.

[tenni]

"Hmmm, didn't think I ever said anything about this subject, one way, or another."

Sometimes we say things by not saying things... ;)

You have not specifically sought out transsexuals. It has not been your focus. Some guys post about being attracted to transwomen ("chick with dicks") and they want to find one not realizing many transwomen do not like their penis touched (not like the porn). You are not one of them nor am I. I think that your comment is wise and follows what I see as your life philosophy. You are attracted to the person and not the gentitalia. In some respects that is part of pansexuality but you have not sought out a transperson. I am somewhat similar but less open in to entering into a relationship with a transman or transwoman unless they had completely transitioned. I'm not turned on by chic with dicks and probably would decline exploring a relationship with one. I would not seek out a transman but I may be more open to exploring sex or relationship with a person with masculine features but has a vagina. I'm not that attracted to dicks..lol

[Annika L]

If you find the face, body shape and other secondary sexual traits (i.e. on a man a beard and body hair..on a woman breasts) attractive but the mixing of secondary sex traits and primary sex organs unattractive (beards, body hair and vagina with an enlarged clitorus or breasts and a penis on one body unattractive) are you transphobic?

I think there is a world of difference, tenni, between finding a physical aspect of a person or group of people unattractive and actually hating those people. If I hated them, I would probably find their physical difference unattractive...but if I find their physical difference unattractive, that does not imply hatred. So no.

[tenni]

Annika
Hate? Gee, I would certainly agree that hatred of trans people goes way beyond what I was thinking and I suspect what bi radical wrote? I am under the impression that biracial is a transwoman and I got the impression that she was referring to something far less than hate. She seemed to write that bisexuality should include trans people and not just CIS male and CIS female. You must include trans people as bisexuals. You must be attracted to them or you are transphobic. I could be wrong. I don't think that she used the word "hate" so she goes much farther than you propose requiring hate to be accused of transphobia.

[Annika L]

Annika
Hate? Gee, I would certainly agree that hatred of trans people goes way beyond what I was thinking and I suspect what bi radical wrote? I am under the impression that biracial is a transwoman and I got the impression that she was referring to something far less than hate. She seemed to write that bisexuality should include trans people and not just CIS male and CIS female. You must include trans people as bisexuals. You must be attracted to them or you are transphobic. I could be wrong. I don't think that she used the word "hate" so she goes much farther than you propose requiring hate to be accused of transphobia.

Even if this person never used the word "hate", it is certainly implied by "transphobia".

Homophobia is hatred of homosexuals.
Biphobia is hatred of bisexuals.
Transphobia is hatred of transsexuals (and/or other transgendered persons...not sure which sense of "trans" is technically meant...probably the most liberal).

Even if we consider the most classic meaning of "phobia", which is "fear", I would say that lack of attraction does not equate to that either.

I certainly do consider *bisexual* transpeople as bisexuals. But I'm not attracted to all bisexuals. I really don't see any validity to this person's claims. Seems like ridiculous grandstanding to me.

[Long Duck Dong]

biradical is genderqueer http://radicalbi.wordpress.com/about/..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer

its part of why they speak the way they do..... they are speaking out against the * only cisgender people are what bisexuals are attracted to * type of thinking and how bisexual is seem by some to not include any people that is outside the cisgender boundaries.....

basically we have a non conventional gender / sexuality person saying, lets drop the restrictions on sexuality, lets stop trying to create the diversions and putting people into different groups... and embrace the idea that we can be bi/pansexual, use the bi label if we so choose and have it accepted that bi people are attracted to more than just 2 genders ( male and female ) and they are still bisexual

their stance is that some people are very much against the idea that bisexuals can be attracted to more than just cisgender males and females, those people want to * keep control * over the sexuality labels and keep them * pure * and * untainted * by the people that blur the lines..... in in simple terms, Biradical falls outside of the * acceptable * defination of bisexual cisgender attraction because biradical is not cisgender herself and she is not a person that has strict bisexual cisgender attraction to other people

its where the term, Exile, comes into it.... biradical dares to think, feel and love.... not conform and obey the restrictions that some people try to put on sexuality and attraction

[elian]

Isn't that the whole goal of this so called "struggle" ?? Proving that a person has value and worth regardless of who they are attracted to and who they fall in love with? I mean, when I envision the world *I* want to see it shouldn't matter if you love boys, girls or the transgender version of same..a person is a person and still has value beyond their genitals..both as a productive member of society at large and as a partner/companion capable and deserving of being loved physically, emotionally and spiritually.

..and I am a polyamorus person, but I have found that truly I have enough energy and time to date one person at a time..I've tried the threesome thing - it was wonderful to be validated, loved and accepted by both a man and a woman. I cared for both very much but it just wasn't for me..it seemed to take a lot of energy..maybe some of these relationships can truly be "effortless" but I haven't found such a thing in my very limited experience. There are some I've cared for deeply that I will never forget.

[DoneGone275]

Very interesting post. One's sexual preference I think is just that, a preference. Why does people insist on grouping others in a category? Grouping people with labels really makes no sense. I place everyone in the same category, the same race, the same party. We are all human. Each of us are different in many ways, but the bottom line is that we all have feelings, we all need love, and we all are really the same in many ways too.

The only people I exclude from my life are those that exclude others through prejudice.

[Annika L]

..... they are speaking out against the * only cisgender people are what bisexuals are attracted to

... and embrace the idea that we can be bi/pansexual, use the bi label if we so choose and have it accepted that bi people are attracted to more than just 2 genders ( male and female ) and they are still bisexual


Hmmm...two deals here. First, just like it's ridiculous to say that bisexual people *have* to be attracted to transpeople, it is equally ridiculous to suggest that bisexual people *cannot* be attracted to transpeople. Sheesh.

But (and maybe we're just having a semantic breakdown in communication here) to suggest that bisexuals can be attracted to more than 2 genders (sexes, really) and still be bisexual...well...that kinda breaks with the whole etymology of the word, doesn't it? "Bi" means two. End of conversation. Don't like it? talk to the ancient Greeks. My understanding is that this is exactly where the distinction between bisexual and pansexual comes in: bisexuals are attracted to males and females, and pansexuals are attracted to everything in between as well...and everything else (of course I don't meant every instance of everything, but hopefully you get the idea). Just to own it a bit, I'm probably a little closer to pansexual than bisexual myself, really...but it's largely untested waters, and for now I'm quite comfortable identifying as bisexual.

Now if you're one of these people who considers transsexuals another gender (and therefore, transsexuals in transition as another sex?) then *maybe* I can see the semantic difficulty. But I tend to see a transsexual as the gender that they identify as. That tends to break down as male, female, or "something else" (and sometimes neither/nothing). So as *I* see it, it shouldn't even really be a question as to whether a bisexual should be attracted to a transperson who identifies as other than male or female. But even among those who do *identify* as male or female, but are in a state of...I dunno...incongruence...a presentation that differs from their private physiology, or a physiology that is a blend of sex-traits, I see no issue with some bisexuals being attracted to that and some being not attracted to that.

In any case, I reserve "phobia" language for where it's truly warranted...hatefulness and bigotry...the kind of person who, when they discover that the woman they are with actually has a penis (or the man they are with lacks one) goes beyond "hmm, not sure I'm into this" and right into swinging fists and accusations of betrayal.

[Long Duck Dong]

lol I am basically pansexual in the sense of gender / sexuality blind...... I can not look at a room of people and see the different aspects of sexuality and gender in the ways that other people may be able to and forming a relationship with any one of the people in the room would be because I like their company and personality and not think in terms of I would hook up with the lady boys, have casual sex with the gays / lesbians and trans, consider a relationship with a straight person and have a bi person as a soul mate............ the other type of pansexuality is more sexual based, they were not as sexually limited in their choices but they also tend to see the different groups in terms of sexual partners, romantic partners etc.....


personally I like the idea of using bisexual as a basic understanding that a person can be attracted to 2 or more genders, the pansexual nature is defined by the way they see other people.... because its a non restrictive aspect that does not define a persons sexuality or attraction.....and I really can not see why there needs to be an assimilation of the pansexual aspect into the bisexual aspect..... I think we should respect peoples rights to exist as they are using the labels they want to use and the right to share the definition of those labels as they pertain to each person

for me, part of the issue is the society and legal definitions of male and female, but the medical and psych definitions of male, female, intersex and genderqueer ( any gender aspect that is not strictly female or male in the purest sense ) ..... its similar to the whole bisexual vs monosexual argument and how we are so different, yet the only difference is how we see ourselves and other people..... attraction by any other name, is still attraction.... love by any other name is still love... and sexual interaction by any other name is still sexual interaction.... I am still not convinced that people that are not bisexual can not understand what its like to be bisexual, they may not be able to relate to be attracted to both genders but they can understand attraction to a person and the differences between socialising with the same and opposite genders.....

phobia for me, is something that can be a rational or irrational fear of something.... so bi phobia is not always a fear or dislike of bisexual people but it can be a dislike of something that bisexual people may be thought to do... in the same way that gay males can be seen as femine queens that all engage in anal sex, in the eyes of some anti gay people.... so the fear ( False Evidence Appearing Real ) becomes the reality for those people..... and thats why I say that bi phobia can be found in the bi community, not as a fair or dislike of bi people, but a fear or dislike of some types of people that are bisexual and what they stand for, such as cross dressing....

to be honest, I tend to agree with some experts that say that the more a person seeks to seperate a community from the rest of society, the more they are actually trying to get their own behievour and understandings, accepted by the community and society as normal and not something that can be disruptive to the community and society as a whole

[tenni]

Annika
Putting the phobia meaning to be inclusive to hatred aside, I am inclined to agree that if a trans person identifies as male or female that they should be permitted. If they see themselves as bisexual meaning attracted to both male and female that is fine to call yourself bisexual. If the transexual sees themselves as attracted to male, female and those transitioning what is wrong with using the word "pansexual'? It does not matter which gender(s) you are if you are attracted to CSIgender and transitioned transsexuals you are bisexual. If you are attracted to all the variances beyond the binary use the term pansexual. It is as if they want to be included. The transexual genderqueer or what ever label want inclusion and forced inclusion at that.

[Gearbox]

Blokes who only like the cock part, are just as bisexual as any other bi or pansexual. There's not much of an application form to fill out:
1. Do you like cock & pussy?
2. Um.....er.....um....Damn! Should have split that question into two.....um....er...just do No 1 please.
:tongue:

[Annika L]

I am inclined to agree that if a trans person identifies as male or female that they should be permitted. If they see themselves as bisexual meaning attracted to both male and female that is fine to call yourself bisexual. If the transexual sees themselves as attracted to male, female and those transitioning what is wrong with using the word "pansexual'? It does not matter which gender(s) you are if you are attracted to CSIgender and transitioned transsexuals you are bisexual. If you are attracted to all the variances beyond the binary use the term pansexual. It is as if they want to be included. The transexual genderqueer or what ever label want inclusion and forced inclusion at that.

Was thinking about this whole question last night, and it occurred to me to wonder about people who see people less as people and more as parts. It struck me that you could consider yourself as bisexual because (exactly as dear Gear says) you like cock and pussy...not men and women...and I think that is completely reasonable, although it's not me. In this case, if they like pussy and breasts and they like cock, what is inconsistent with bisexuality about them enjoying cock and breasts on the same person? Such a person doesn't necessarily fit the definition of pansexual...they just find much of what they like in one place.

[semibi]

In any case, I reserve "phobia" language for where it's truly warranted...hatefulness and bigotry...the kind of person who, when they discover that the woman they are with actually has a penis (or the man they are with lacks one) goes beyond "hmm, not sure I'm into this" and right into swinging fists and accusations of betrayal.

Not to split hairs, well, okay, to split hairs, but phobia is a" fear of," which is not necessarily the same thing as hatefulness and bigotry, although those latter two things can be rooted in fear.

I think all of these labels and the people they're labeling stir fears, and hatred and bigotry. I wonder how we can begin to see people as people. Hmmm. I'm hearing an early-ish Depeche Mode song.

Personally, I don't understand cross dressing, transsexualism, non-cisgenderism, or any of that. I have not had to think about it much. In the past, when I have seen people in public who fit those labels, I felt confused, and perhaps at times judgmental. It was not rational or logical, but just a gut feeling, probably based on inexperience, lack of exposure, and general discomfort dealing with atypical sexuality in general, even my own. And, there was fear in there, for sure, self directed, not so much other induced, although it's easier to then point the negative finger at the other, isn't it?

I think the more open we are, the move loving we try to become, the less the labels matter. It's not easy to get there. It's not easy to love ourselves that much, at least in my experience, let alone others. In recent years, I learned that someone I care about has some gender issues stirring deep down, and some sexuality issues that surprised me, some of which are unrelated and others of which are perhaps related. The situation is more complex than in anyone else I've ever met, and this is someone I care about a lot. Hearing this, I was confused and even a little scared. It stirred questions in me, about me. And, I was tempted to run, as a gut reaction. But, where do you run to hide from yourself? So, I started asking questions. I got some answers. And, I quickly saw that I didn't care about the labels, or the sexuality or gender identity quirks. I care about the person and that other stuff easily became periphery. I don't think I could have done that so easily in the past. But, more recently, it wasn't much of a hurdle. Maybe I matured just a little along the way.

That said, I think it's a leap to equate fear with hatred. The one doesn't always lead to the other.

[tenni]

When I look up biphobia I read about the word “aversion”. I don’t read the word “fear” but I agree that generally a phobia is a fear and more specifically an illogical fear of something to the point that it makes life difficult for you to function. I do not read the word “hatred” with the word bipohbia but be damned if aversion doesn't include hatred..damn. The person is averse to the group bisexuals or the individual. I guess that can be a range from dislike to hatred?


Transphobia refers to fear but adds words about prejudice and misogeny being connected to transphobia. The idea of discrimination and loathing. That brings it closer to Annika view that transphobia and biphobia are connected to hatred..but it seems to apply only to transgendered people..not CISbisexuals?


The two words of biphobia and transphobia are not interchangeable. Biradical seems to connect them though. She accuses CISpeople of transphobia if they are not attracted to a transperson..as far as I can figure.


I agree with Annika when she refers to the attraction as being only to physical part..usually primary or secondary sexual bits. The people who are attracted to the bits and mixing the bits within one body are depersonalizing the transpeople. They are not looking at their personality or humanity. Then again, as a CISmale if I were to meet a transwoman who was quite passable, I may be attracted to her..until I discover the bits being mixed on her. By that point, who knows. I may become willing to explore. I would not be drawn to the image of a transwoman with a penis at all. Is that transphobia? Biphobia?(doubt it)

Unlike Annika I do tend to see people who are attracted to a person regardless of their bits as pansexual. That attraction may be simple to the bits(tits and dicks). So,what is pansexual to you Annika?

On congrats Semibi to your evolution as a sexual human ;) I guess that we are all works in progress and that seems to apply more to bisexuals with the fluidity aspect. :)

[Rose2Me]

Interesting thread all. Personally I tend to ignore labels at this point in my life, which doesn't me that I too wasn't mindful of them at one point. As time passed, and I became more comfortable being Rose, I realized the hypocrisy of labeling. There's no point in applying labels to what we feel are groups of people when there is no overriding characteristics that truly separate one from another. How can we characterize the outward appearance vs. a person's internal image of oneself? Rose is me always; she gets a chance to be outwardly visible now and then, but she is always there. It doesn't change my self-image. My sexual attraction to others and/or my role varies from time to time, depending on who I'm with, what his/her needs are, and combined with who I'm outwardly presenting myself as. I don't worry about labels so much anymore because I can't be labelled- who am I to judge others?

We are all passengers on the same train to who knows what. We are all free in our minds to be who we want to be; the outside world is just the construct we all have to deal with until we reach the end of the line.

[Gearbox]

We are all passengers on the same train to who knows what. We are all free in our minds to be who we want to be; the outside world is just the construct we all have to deal with until we reach the end of the line.
Agreed.....to a point. We still have to interact with the outside world, and in relation to that, we are 'defined'.
You have chosen Transgender as your gender label here, for that purpose. There's little escape from it.:bigrin:

I hope you don't mind me picking your brains, but what does that mean? Are you female in your mind, or transgender?
If female, do you begrudgingly use the label 'transgender' due to how the outside world may view you?
If transgender, do you include your experience of physical transition to identify your mental/emotional self.....or was there a mental/emotional transition too? ---(Were you ALWAYS female mentally & emotionally?).
When would you be happy to define yourself as female?......if that's what you'd want?.....if that's what you think the outside world should just accept that as what you are?

Sorry for the headache.:tongue:

[transcendMental]

Agreed.....to a point. We still have to interact with the outside world, and in relation to that, we are 'defined'.
You have chosen Transgender as your gender label here, for that purpose. There's little escape from it.:bigrin:

I hope you don't mind me picking your brains, but what does that mean? Are you female in your mind, or transgender?
If female, do you begrudgingly use the label 'transgender' due to how the outside world may view you?
If transgender, do you include your experience of physical transition to identify your mental/emotional self.....or was there a mental/emotional transition too? ---(Were you ALWAYS female mentally & emotionally?).
When would you be happy to define yourself as female?......if that's what you'd want?.....if that's what you think the outside world should just accept that as what you are?

Sorry for the headache.:tongue:

Hi Gearbox, I wanted to answer your questions, since they could as easily have been asked of me. I identify as female, and although I know I am transsexual, I have never identified as transsexual or transgendered, just as a woman. I have really mixed feelings about having it as my designated "gender" on the site, and I've posted threads on the topic. On another site (long ago now) I experienced some harassment from labeling myself female. When people "found out" I was born in a male body, they got pretty mean about it, called me a liar, accused me of all kinds of things, and told me I needed to label myself transgendered and stay out of female-only forums (which I'd not done much and had only done for conversation). I figured I'd just start with a clean slate here and announce it to everyone. But it feels like having to wear a Scarlet T of shame, for not having been born with the right body. On the other hand it makes it easier to post about transgender issues.

At this point I am female in the real world, and am happy to define myself that way. But it's still complicated, because people who knew me before I transitioned still sometimes give indications that they don't see me as female, even though everyone who meets me for the first time does. And it can be uncomfortable talking about transgender issues when people don't know about my past, because as soon as you come out to them, they stop seeing me as a woman and see me as a man of some kind - and usually not a very good kind of man. So it's a persistent conflict. I have that past, and can't escape it, though I wish I could.

Does that tell you what you wanted to know?

To tenni's original questions, I consider myself a bisexual because I'm attracted to men and women. If anyone who is attracted to women (bisexual or straight) rules me out as a partner because of how my genitals looked when I was born (not because they just don't find me attractive), yes, I think that is transphobic. If that had happened when I still had male parts or male presentation, I would not have thought it necessarily transphobic at all.

tm

[tenni]

Hi TranscenMental

I always appreciate your input and look for you to comment on a variety of topics. You seem to be an wonderful intelligent person. I've said this before but I am attracted to the person who posts under this username. If you were in transition still with boy bits, I would think that you would want to inform any potential partner before they became physically intimate with you. As you state that you have now transitioned any one meeting you and entering in to a relationship with you may or may not be upset to find out that you were born a male. Just as people post that bisexuals should inform any potential sexual /relationship partner that they are bisexual.

I really do not understand why you see a CISmale who is not attracted to a in transition female is transphobic? I don't hate you. I don't fear you. I might even be interested in you if you have transitioned with only girl parts. I just don't want to be sexually involved with a transwoman in transition. If I was only interested in cock on a man, I don't think that we call such guys as biphobic or homophobic?

[transcendMental]

Hi TranscenMental

I always appreciate your input and look for you to comment on a variety of topics. You seem to be an wonderful intelligent person. I've said this before but I am attracted to the person who posts under this username. If you were in transition still with boy bits, I would think that you would want to inform any potential partner before they became physically intimate with you. As you state that you have now transitioned any one meeting you and entering in to a relationship with you may or may not be upset to find out that you were born a male. Just as people post that bisexuals should inform any potential sexual /relationship partner that they are bisexual.

I totally agree with you on the underlined part. It would be crazy and disrespectful to spring a surprise of that kind on anyone. Not that the whole situation would have been appealing at that time anyway, since sex became difficult during transition. Much better now. And yeah, if I was getting into a relationship with someone today, I would also tell them. What I think sucks is that there's a good chance telling them would end the relationship. But I'd still tell them. If that would end the relationship, that is what I think is transphobic.


I really do not understand why you see a CISmale who is not attracted to a in transition female is transphobic?
I don't. I totally don't. That's what I said. Maybe you misunderstood. Such a cis-male might be transphobic, but just his not being attracted to a transwoman in transition doesn't make him transphobic. Not to me anyway. I'm glad you don't hate or fear me, lol.

tm

[Gearbox]

Does that tell you what you wanted to know?
Yes I think so.Thanks.
That's how I thought it was. But with all this talk of 'other gender', I wasn't sure if Transgender was that 'other gender'. YES, dumb I know! But if you don't ask......:oh:

When I think of a transgendered person, I can't help but think of the troubles they went through to get to m/f. That part of your past IS a part of you as your female self, and I can see how the transgender label is about your experience, and not gender now. We should be thanking you for that. I can't put myself in your shoes, but I'd not allow anybody to class me as male. They can have their opinions, but that's that!:bigrin:
Easy for me to say! I just have the hetero & homo labels to contend with, and that's nauseating enough! You have that as a bonus 'misconception' opportunity. Lucky you.lol

It's just nice to know that the female voice I read your posts with is ok. Back to normal. Panic over!:tongue:
Thanks.

[tenni]

I totally agree with you on the underlined part. It would be crazy and disrespectful to spring a surprise of that kind on anyone. Not that the whole situation would have been appealing at that time anyway, since sex became difficult during transition. Much better now. And yeah, if I was getting into a relationship with someone today, I would also tell them. What I think sucks is that there's a good chance telling them would end the relationship. But I'd still tell them. If that would end the relationship, that is what I think is transphobic.


I don't. I totally don't. That's what I said. Maybe you misunderstood. Such a cis-male might be transphobic, but just his not being attracted to a transwoman in transition doesn't make him transphobic. Not to me anyway. I'm glad you don't hate or fear me, lol.

tm

Hi
Glad to read that you agree that just because you are not attracted to a transperson in transition doesn't "necessarily" mean that you are transphobic. As I understand biracial (a transwoman) she seemed to think that it made you transphobic. I think that it is unfair that someone might be initially attracted to you after transition and then not if they find out that you were born a male. That does seem unfortunate. I'm not sure if that makes the guy transphobic but you are wise to put your cards on the table. It must be irritating though to realize that you need to disclose that to a new potential lover. I do so admire you. You seem to be so together. I most definitely like you. On the internet we are all just people with our personalities guiding us. No gender restrictions. Interesting is it not?

[transcendMental]

It's just nice to know that the female voice I read your posts with is ok. First, you can't begin to know how much that means to me.


with all this talk of 'other gender', I wasn't sure if Transgender was that 'other gender'. YES, dumb I know! But if you don't ask......:oh:

Not dumb at all! There are many in the transgendered spectrum who do identify as a 3rd gender, other gender, 2-spirit, agender, etc., so your confusion is natural. They confuse me too, since I can't identify with their experience either. But it's still a valid experience.


I can't put myself in your shoes, but I'd not allow anybody to class me as male. They can have their opinions, but that's that!

I think I know what you mean, but it's not just my choice. Even if they say nothing to me about it, even if they don't realize they're doing it, they treat me differently. We react differently to/with men than we do to/with women. I have total confirmation of this now. And if a man ever really treated a woman like they treat a man, she'd be very disoriented. That was my daily reality until transition. And it's still my reality with people who knew me before who don't get it. I never owned people's "classing me as male" before; I still don't; but it still affects me and is still painful.

But thanking me? Never heard anyone voice that before. Between you and tenni, you're making me cry here.


I think that it is unfair that someone might be initially attracted to you after transition and then not if they find out that you were born a male. That does seem unfortunate. I'm not sure if that makes the guy transphobic

If a guy in that position changes his mind about me because he wants babies, that's something other than transphobia. But if he was attracted before and isn't after hearing I was born male, I have a hard time seeing much else than transphobia as the explanation. It's like if I said I was attracted to you before learning you were Canadian, but now I'm not. I think if that happened it would be ok to infer that I'm prejudiced against Canadians.


but you are wise to put your cards on the table. It must be irritating though to realize that you need to disclose that to a new potential lover. I do so admire you. You seem to be so together. I most definitely like you.

Have to disclose to every potential lover. For life. It's a sentence.

But admiration? Together? My head's spinning. I like you too, tenni.

Feelin' the love and enjoying the glow!
tm

[Long Duck Dong]

the issue is that while you may see yourself as a female, some guys are not going to see you that way, they may see a guy that is surgically altered to impersonate a female.... the trans part may not even factor into it because trans is a label that people use but personal interaction rarely revolves about the label .....

its something I see a lot with people that are looking at a situation rather than a person....... and a example of that is looking at your partner, how often do you disagree with something they may be because they are a straight person.... most times you are personally close to a person so you stop seeing them as a label and more of a person......
and the other side of the coin is how often do we see our partners seeing faults in us, as part of a phobic reaction...... then compare it to the times that we can see behievour as phobic in other people that we are not personally connected with......

honestly a lot of people find it hard to connect to a person that has * changed * in their eyes.....and by that I mean that they can fall in love with us as a person, but when they find out that we are ex criminals, ex drug addicts, ex alcoholics, their attraction to us can change.. and that behievour is not considered to be phobic..... but it is if our sexuality or gender aspects are the reason why they do not want to be involved with us, when the reality is that its not always the sexuality that is the issue, its the behievour that we want our partners to accept and embrace, that actually the root cause......

being out has been interesting in the fact that it has given me the chance to watch the change in dynamics in people when they realise that the person that they are talking to, is one of the type of people that they are rubbishing and insulting.... even the shift in my own family was very interesting to watch in the way they reacted to my sister ( disowned her ) my cousin ( spoke out against her sexuality but embraced her as part of the family ), myself ( argued about my sexuality, tried to tell me that I was wrong about my own sexuality but accepted me as a person ) my flatmate / roommate ( rubbishing gay people but respectful of him to his face ) .......

I am curious, transcendmental, if your partner said they could not deal with you as a woman or they could not deal with you being a trans person and a stranger saying the same things, would you see their reactions the same way ? personally I can see a difference between not being able to deal with you as a woman ( personal ) and a trans ( label and impersonal ) but that has more to do with the way I think.... a bit like seeing the difference between a truck / pick up and a perference between a ford / gmc etc

its part of why biradical ( she IDs as genderqueer ) talks about phobic behievour but does not really refer to any form of genderqueer phobic behievour and any non cisgender phobic behievour but does talk about trans phobia ( one of the few *accepted * forms of phobia towards people that are not cisgender and the irony, is that trans sexual / gender people can experience more than one type of trans phobia but people that are intersex / gender queer, generally dont experience direct forms of phobia regarding their sexuality or gender,.... they experience phobic behievour based around other people ( homophobia and trans phobia )

[Rose2Me]

Agreed.....to a point. We still have to interact with the outside world, and in relation to that, we are 'defined'.
You have chosen Transgender as your gender label here, for that purpose. There's little escape from it.:bigrin:

I hope you don't mind me picking your brains, but what does that mean? Are you female in your mind, or transgender?
If female, do you begrudgingly use the label 'transgender' due to how the outside world may view you?
If transgender, do you include your experience of physical transition to identify your mental/emotional self.....or was there a mental/emotional transition too? ---(Were you ALWAYS female mentally & emotionally?).
When would you be happy to define yourself as female?......if that's what you'd want?.....if that's what you think the outside world should just accept that as what you are?

Sorry for the headache.:tongue:

Hey no problem- funny you should mention this issue. While writing my post yesterday I was going to change my "label" on this site, then noticed that there were only 3 choices- male, female, or transgender. Of those three, transgender was most appropriate. If given the choice on this site I was going to pick "other", just leave it blank, or write something witty, but that is not an option, ironically enough. I still can't truly label myself in my mind. I have strong so-called "female" tendencies, thoughts, desires, etc., but the male side of me also can't be denied nor discounted. I am who I am, and as I said, labels just don't apply.

[Gearbox]

Hey no problem- funny you should mention this issue. While writing my post yesterday I was going to change my "label" on this site, then noticed that there were only 3 choices- male, female, or transgender. Of those three, transgender was most appropriate. If given the choice on this site I was going to pick "other", just leave it blank, or write something witty, but that is not an option, ironically enough. I still can't truly label myself in my mind. I have strong so-called "female" tendencies, thoughts, desires, etc., but the male side of me also can't be denied nor discounted. I am who I am, and as I said, labels just don't apply.
Oh God, I was hoping nobody would delve into a 'what makes a male or female' ditch. But I got my foot in there, despite knowing better.:tongue:
I'm not going to jump in head first coz that's far too complex for a post and I'd go on & on & on.lol

BUT.....you've now got me wondering if I could sort my own thoughts, tendencies, desires etc into boxes marked 'Masc' & 'Fem'. How would I do that?:tongue:
Any minute now, I'm off to get my daughter, make her food, put the hoover on, do some ironing etc. Am not off to the woods to chop logs or slaughter chickens for dinner.lol
But I think I'm masc. Why do I think that?

I hope you're not charging for this counselling there Rose!:bigrin:

[transcendMental]

the issue is that while you may see yourself as a female, some guys are not going to see you that way, they may see a guy that is surgically altered to impersonate a female....

I am curious, transcendmental, if your partner said they could not deal with you as a woman or they could not deal with you being a trans person and a stranger saying the same things, would you see their reactions the same way ? personally I can see a difference between not being able to deal with you as a woman ( personal ) and a trans ( label and impersonal ) but that has more to do with the way I think.... a bit like seeing the difference between a truck / pick up and a perference between a ford / gmc etc


I understand what the issue is, Long Duck Dong, I just think it sucks. Cis-women get surgically altered in order to improve how they look or function as a woman all the time, and few people see that as a problem. Just the language of "impersonate a female" suggests transphobia to me, since it denies the fact that I'm striving for authenticity, not impersonation. I am a female; I was just born in a body that looks different from other women (aside from the brain).

About my partner, yes I see a difference. She married me when I was presenting 100% as male, and she had every right to expect a straight life with a cis-man. Yes, I told her I was female very early in our relationship, but neither of us really understood what significance that would eventually have for us. If she had decided that she really didn't want to live with someone who was physically or even just "socially" female (either because of her own sexuality or because she wasn't willing to live that sexuality openly), I could not consider that transphobia. If she had decided that putting up with the upheaval that transition caused in our lives was more than she could stand, I could not call that transphobia. It was disruptive and uncomfortable, and I couldn't blame anyone for wanting to bail out of it. It wasn't what she "signed up for".

But if I was single and X (male or female) met me, we found each other attractive, we developed feelings for one another, either as a man and woman or as two women, but on hearing that I was born male, X decides they don't want me anymore, yes I do think that's transphobic. I'm exactly the same person they met and fell in love with, inside and out. Since I'm now in a body I'm comfortable with, there's no chance I'll be changing it in uncomfortable ways. The only difference is that they know that I was born male. If X was a guy who wanted babies, ok, I assume he'd have the same issue/reaction with a woman who was infertile, so that makes sense to me. But otherwise, I have a hard time seeing it as anything but transphobia.

I find your comparison of transsexuals to criminals, drug addicts, and alcoholics, however, to be shallow and offensive. Transsexualism is not an addiction, nor is it a response to our environment or upbringing. It's a medical condition with a treatment. Once it's treated, it's pretty much resolved. Criminals, drug addicts, and alcoholics don't often resolve so completely. There are strategies they can use to help them avoid bad behaviors, but usually the underlying problem lingers. So the prejudices against these people are more rational, and hence less phobic. Not that they aren't any less worthy of love. But committing to these people involves a set of risks that not everyone should be expected to take.

[Long Duck Dong]

hugs trans..... I know what you are saying..... its something that I have seen in other peoples reactions and attitudes,.... its like some of us can take a step forward and see transcendmental as a woman, other people can only step sidewards and see you as a male or a male changing themselves to appear female.... it comes more down to the ability to relate to people as they are than as they were....

I am sorry if you read my remarks about trans and criminals as being the same, I was not trying to compare the two as the same.... but the reactions of people can be the same to us, they have seen the people we are, they accepted us for who we are, because they do not know the past..... and tell them the past, its like they suddenly do not really know us, we are different people and so its something that we can not escape from without not revealing who we once were.....

its like you say, they realise that you were born a male and they decide that they do not want to be in a relationship with somebody who was born a male.... but that was you once, you are a woman, the person they are attracted to.....and I dare say, a more balanced and settled person than in the past..... and to be honest, I am not sure if its transphobia ( issues with a woman born as a male ) or homophobia ( seeing you as a gay male ) or if its personal issues in the person themselves,... without talking with them, I could not really say.... I know a few people that are very trans friendly but openly admit that they would not do well in a relationship with a trans person because they can not connect to them as a partner but connect very well as friends......

[transcendMental]

honestly a lot of people find it hard to connect to a person that has * changed * in their eyes.....and by that I mean that they can fall in love with us as a person, but when they find out that we are ex criminals, ex drug addicts, ex alcoholics, their attraction to us can change.. and that behievour is not considered to be phobic.....

Heard a story on National Public Radio yesterday that I think makes a much better and inoffensive comparison.

Woman got caught in the Boston Marathon bombing last year. Woke up and her foot was in great pain. Was told she would never regain use of her foot, it would never heal, the pain would never go away, and she would be confined to a wheelchair for life. Her alternative was to have the foot amputated. The pain would be gone and with a prosthetic foot she could walk again, even run. She said that as it was presented to her, there really was no choice. She worried about how she would look, but was pleased with the outcome, as today's prosthetics look almost as good as the real thing.

I'm thinking yeah, a "choice" of life in perpetual misery and disfunctionality or have surgery that leaves you differently abled, but abled. Sounds familiar. I'm thinking worry about how you'll look, but being pleased with the outcome, yeah, that's familiar too. I'm thinking of course if she meets someone she'd want/have to tell them about this before things go too far. I know I couldn't pop my leg off casually in the bedroom and just expect the other person to shrug it off. And I'm thinking that some people would hear that she's missing a leg and decide that they can't/won't deal with that. And yes, if she's gotten to the point where she is at peace with her new existence, then I think such a person is a phobic dickhead. We don't have a word in our language for disabled-phobia, but we need one. And this woman isn't disabled any more than I am trans. She was disabled and is now re-abled. I was in a body of the wrong sex and now am not. Basically re-abled.

I do like your question about whether it is transphobia or homophobia, though. It's definitely phobia (in the gender and sexuality sense anyway). It can be either or both. I guess it's probably most often homophobia coupled with ignorance of what transsexualism actually is. But especially with all the information out there (in the media, on the web, etc.) these days about transsexualism, I have to consider that ignorance on the level of considering me a gay man comes from an aversion to absorbing information about transsexualism, which amounts to a level of transphobia.