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transcendMental

Aug 27, 2013, 5:08 PM

I know there are many of you here, or at least so many of you say. The question is what you mean by "fan". Do you mean it in the sense that some are Steeler's fans, or Eagles fans, or Redskins fans? In other words that you won't hear a word against us and you'll come to blows defending us if someone as much as utters an insult? Or are you a fair-weather fan who loves TS/TG people, as long as they have the combination of sexual bits you're looking for, but lose admiration the moment that changes? Or do you really just mean that we (or the thought of us) help you get off and so you want to keep us around and well-disposed to you? Or do you mean by fan that you push hot air around?

The article below is what frustrates me about hearing so many people avow admiration for TS/TG people, but only really in a sexual context.

Maybe….maybe if every man who has ever hired a trans escort, if every boy who has ever beat off to trans porn, if all the guys I and thousands of others have hooked up with via Craig’s List, if the millions who fetishize our bodies, who enjoy us on our knees in bathrooms, who press us against hotel windows, who lay with us in our beds, if the men who adore me and my sisters, but only behind closed doors, would STAND THE FUCK UP AND SPEAK OUT…maybe 21 year old women just enjoying an evening out with friends wouldn’t be beat to death.

Maybe if all of you who read this, our allies and friends and colleagues and family, would call out when others make jokes at our expense, even when we’re not around, if you’d tell advertisers and producers and journalists and writers and comics that you’re not okay with them making trans women nothing but the punchline of jokes or tragic tossaways, that you know us, that we’re not disposable….maybe groups of people would stop feeling so free to harass me and my sisters, maybe crowds wouldn’t just laugh when a man spits at me, or just watch when two young men chase me down the street yelling “shemale”…maybe if you ALL stood up and said enough, maybe a young woman just being herself wouldn’t be beat to death in the streets of the supposedly best place on earth to just be yourself.

Maybe if all the gay [tm: and bisexual] men who act as if equality means marriage, if all the white feminists who only serve those that look like them, if all the queers who drop “TWOC” like a shibboleth but don’t know or talk to or walk beside any actual trans women of color…maybe if all of you saw what was happening here and how your actions allow it, how every moment of silence, of waiting for people of color to start the conversation about race …maybe this child could have enjoyed a few more years of being beautiful among us.

A 21 year old was beat to death in our streets. It happened because she is a woman, and of color, and transgender. It happened because our men won’t admit they love us, because our friends aren’t speaking out against the thousand little dehumanizing actions of others, because our own “LGBT” community isn’t comfortable talking about race and class.

This has to change. Now.

http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20130822/central-harlem/transgender-woman-dies-after-savage-beating-cops-say#video_modal_13772731841756 (http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20130822/central-harlem/transgender-woman-dies-after-savage-beating-cops-say#video_modal_13772731841756)
http://media.tumblr.com/023a7174f94f420fae01f85af73b186d/tumblr_inline_mrzqwmTuiP1qz4rgp.jpg Credit to: http://smartassjen.tumblr.com/post/59112057117/maybe-if

tenni

Aug 27, 2013, 9:22 PM

transcendMental

Aug 29, 2013, 9:45 PM

Hi TranscendMental
This is a difficult one for me. On the first and foremost part no one should be killed for who they are or what they are when it comes to sexuality.

On the second part about being a "fan" of trans people, I don't think that you have to be a "fan" inorder to have a position on this. I'm not a fan of trans people in the sense that I think that TranscendMental may be suggesting. I am not sexually attracted to transwomen in transition. That puts me outside of the realm of wanting to have sex with a transwoman or wank to video of them. I suspect that the people (guys mostly) that I think that you refer to as fans have sexualized a person to a point of being an object. "Chick with a dick" porn scenario.

I think that it is difficult for such guys to see transpeople as people. It may be outdated and most guys who still might "fan" tasize about women as sex objects pretty much know that it is not a socially acceptable way to act. How do you get the guys (mostly pansexuals I'd guess) who are objectifying transwomen? Difficult.

They seem to want to keep it on a sexualized fantasy approach but really are just ignorant in the true meaning of the word as to what they do. There is no significant social taboo to objectify trans people. A lot of people (guys) who seem to get to know transwomen as people modify their original opinion. Is that tne way to increase acceptance as people and not objects?

btw Drew auto check seems to change transpeople to tradespeople...lol "wank" became "sank"...lol

Thanks for such a thoughtful reply, tenni. I get that you (and many here) support our rights and personhood, and I appreciate that very much.

The people I had in mind as "fans" were just exactly those who would say (or have said in other threads) that they are huge fans of TG/TS people. Most threads that get started about "what do you think of TS/TG?" all kinds of people come on and throw in their 2 cents about what huge fans they are, how awesome they think we are, and how much they love us. Interesting but not surprising that they aren't responding here. I agree with your thoughts about them having a hard time viewing us as people, that there is no social norm for treating us or viewing us as people. This is why I'm always on about making distinctions between transpeople and "trannies" that you see in porn. They are fictional characters played by actor/actresses (depending on their identification); we are people and we are real.

I know many here would prefer I not make these posts and just let people go back to their fantasies about us.

But 1 in 12 transpeople in this country is murdered (20 times the risk of the "average" American). We are at an enormously higher risk of violence and sexual violence, even by police, even by health professionals, even by teachers in school.

I have a partner and children, and parents and relatives, and friends, all of whom I love and want to be here for. Most transpeople have at least similar concerns. We can't afford NOT to make these posts.

tm

Long Duck Dong

Aug 30, 2013, 4:38 AM

I am blessed with a number of trans friends, most are angels, some are not.... but for me they are part of my life, people I care about and that have enriched my life for the better... and as much as they see themselves as males and females, they also have a energy around them that can border on the absolutely fucking hilarious and many the time, I have had tears running down my face, holding my guts and swearing I am going to die from laughing.....

they, like me, question WHY so many trans people are murdered and they are not as quick to say its because the person was trans, tho that can be a factor in a lot of cases.... and they are quick to point out a couple of trans people in town that are regularly getting the snot beaten out of them for their behievour which is more often than not, flirting with people and leading them on, which can be risky, then the other person finds out the truth..... and in a way I can understand that... its like the town slut that sleeps with everybodies partners then complains when one of the partners comes calling and its not with flowers in their hand.... and thats true of most different groups.....

for the most part, my trans friends are not really trans to me, they are people, males and females.... and it can be hard for me at times, to see them as trans as to me, it can be like separating them from the rest of the human race.... then there are times where I have shed tears with them as they talk about being who they are.... WHO they are, not what they are... and I share with them about how being intersex ( genetically I am a hybrid intersex due to my genetic structure.... I do not have the dual sex organs or reproductive system but I have to deal with hormonal changes and also a inability to take some meds, then there is the body aspects etc... ) has shown me how I do not really fit in to any mold..... and how, due to other aspects of me, I am in a group of very rare human beings, so I am a medical oddity, yet I do not have to deal with as much of the stigma as trans people or the morbid curiosity that can be afforded to trans and intersex people

trans people can be sexual people, they have wants, needs and desires, yet it seems wrong to desire a trans person for who they are, but ok to desire other people for the same reasons, a sexual encounter....and some trans people have talked about how they want and desire the people that desire them with a passion, even if its just sexual, as it can be very intense and passionate sex... and for some of my friends, its led to a lot more.......

for me, regardless of how people are seen in porn, their bodies are still their bodies, its a part of who they are and outside of the porn movies, they are the same as us.... people with feelings and emotions... so to * put * them aside for who they are on the screen, can be akin to * putting * a trans person aside because they are trans, and not seeing that they are human beings and people just like us.......

when i first came to the forums, I longed for a trans / intersex person, perferably one with the body of a female and the sex organs of a male.... but I also wanted more than just a person to warm my bed... there was something about some of the trans that I have met, that draws me to them like a magnet, a emotional connection .....and that has not really changed for me, tho I have a partner that I love to pieces...... and as DD can tell ya, there are often times that I talk about a constant and recurring desire that involves walking to the kitchen in the morning, slipping my arms around DD and another person and saying I thank the goddess for you both, because now I live, instead of existing....... and its a very powerful longing and desire I long for that to be a reality.....

viva la trannies, some of the most amazing people I have had the blessing of sharing my life with.......

tenni

Aug 30, 2013, 8:18 AM

Hi TranscendMental

“We can't afford NOT to make these posts.”
If your concern is about the physical safety of transpeople how effective is posting on this site? Do you not need a larger format in a mainstream manner?

On one hand, you are stating that posters on this site profess a sexual attraction to transwomen but almost fetishcize transwomen. You are asking them to humanize their interests and join you in finding ways to stop the murders. Silence is these posters response. I can only guess that posters only want the fantasy. They don’t want the reality. When someone makes a thread “What do you think”...fill in blank, I wonder why they do that? The best answer that I can think of is that they too are trying to normalize their sexual interests. Maybe, they think if others comment on their sexual interest they will feel that it is permissible due to the numbers? They are not a freak for thinking that (whatever).

Why can they not empathize with the plight of trans people? I can not believe that a person who reads your statements does not feel something. They just don’t feel enough to comment.

What do you suggest that people do to stop these murders?

Tom P

Aug 31, 2013, 7:49 AM

transendMental, I read your post yesterday and it made me sick. How can someone murder a person for being different. I know this happens everyday but it has to stop. Islan was a beautiful young women with her whole life in front of her that was murdered because she was different. Whether your a transgender person who is living what is considered a standard life, porn star, prostitute, escort, gay, lesbian, bi etc... you should not be murdered because you are different. This young women embraced her diversity at a young age which I have so much respect for. I am 51 and still struggling with and most of the time hate myself for being transgender and would not be accepted when I was 21 but this women was embracing life and trying to learn more about the fashion industry. Who knows she could have been the next great designer. People say be yourself but as long as it fits within what society thinks being yourself should be. We have to be allowed to be our self if you are not hurting anyone while doing so. Society sucks! This is so disturbing.

transcendMental

Aug 31, 2013, 6:57 PM

If your concern is about the physical safety of transpeople how effective is posting on this site? Do you not need a larger format in a mainstream manner? First every little bit helps. Second this is one of the places where there is a concentration of people who say they love us, so it is worth raising this issue with them. And third, nobody has yet passed me the mike to speak to the world on this topic. Until that happens, I have to settle for smaller venues. At least it's still free to post here.

On one hand, you are stating that posters on this site profess a sexual attraction to transwomen but almost fetishcize transwomen. You are asking them to humanize their interests and join you in finding ways to stop the murders. Silence is these posters response. I can only guess that posters only want the fantasy. They don’t want the reality. When someone makes a thread “What do you think”...fill in blank, I wonder why they do that? The best answer that I can think of is that they too are trying to normalize their sexual interests. Maybe, they think if others comment on their sexual interest they will feel that it is permissible due to the numbers? They are not a freak for thinking that (whatever).

Why can they not empathize with the plight of trans people? I can not believe that a person who reads your statements does not feel something. They just don’t feel enough to comment. I suspect many don't want us to be equal. For many men it was handy when women were not seen as equal. They had control, and could use and abuse women as suited them and had tacit approval of their cultures. Similarly with us: it's easier to keep us around for your dalliance if we're oppressed and dependent on you. But not everyone who fetishizes us feels that way. Some just aren't aware of the injustice, haven't thought about it, don't know the murder/violence statistics and would be troubled by them.

What do you suggest that people do to stop these murders?Just what the article in my OP suggests. Put your money where your mouth is and speak out when people make jokes about us, treat us as jokes or insignificant. Some people get into fist fights defending their favorite football teams - who gets into fist fights defending transpeople? If people who think we're all that would start treating us as if we're all that, instead of as a dirty secret of theirs, this would help. If the people who recognize that we are people would start insisting that others treat us as people, this would help. Not just in internet forums but in real life. In real life I see a lot of silent sympathy. I'd appreciate if that would translate to a greater degree of vigilance and willingness to correct the ignorance of others.

transcendMental

Aug 31, 2013, 7:11 PM

they, like me, question WHY so many trans people are murdered and they are not as quick to say its because the person was trans, tho that can be a factor in a lot of cases.... and they are quick to point out a couple of trans people in town that are regularly getting the snot beaten out of them for their behievour which is more often than not, flirting with people and leading them on, which can be risky, then the other person finds out the truth..... and in a way I can understand that... its like the town slut that sleeps with everybodies partners then complains when one of the partners comes calling and its not with flowers in their hand.... and thats true of most different groups.....

trans people can be sexual people, they have wants, needs and desires, yet it seems wrong to desire a trans person for who they are, but ok to desire other people for the same reasons, a sexual encounter....and some trans people have talked about how they want and desire the people that desire them with a passion, even if its just sexual, as it can be very intense and passionate sex... and for some of my friends, its led to a lot more.......
I appreciate your enthusiasm for us.

But you can't convince me that the murder rate of transpeople is 20 times higher than the general public, without us being devalued as humans. I've never bought the argument that women get raped because they wear short skirts, or flirt and don't put out. They are raped because some jackass thinks women are worth so little that they can treat them how they want. Same with transpeople. We are not murdered because of our actions. We are murdered because there is a problem with how we are seen and valued by society.

And I don't object to people having their fantasies and fetishes. But those need to come with a healthy dose of respect, preferably without hypocrisy. In other words, if you're truly a fan of transpeople, then start acting like a fan. Speak out. In real life.

tenni

Aug 31, 2013, 9:05 PM

“If people who think we're all that would start treating us as if we're all that, instead of as a dirty secret of theirs, this would help. If the people who recognize that we are people would start insisting that others treat us as people, this would help. Not just in internet forums but in real life. In real life I see a lot of silent sympathy. I'd appreciate if that would translate to a greater degree of vigilance and willingness to correct the ignorance of others.”

Fair enough. The situation of my reality is that I do not have any contact with people who talk about transexuals. I am not walking in your shoes. I can understand how from your perspective might seem.

“I suspect many don't want us to be equal. For many men it was handy when women were not seen as equal. They had control, and could use and abuse women as suited them and had tacit approval of their cultures. Similarly with us: it's easier to keep us around for your dalliance if we're oppressed and dependent on you. But not everyone who fetishizes us feels that way. Some just aren't aware of the injustice, haven't thought about it, don't know the murder/violence statistics and would be troubled by them.”

Again, such scenarios are not part of my life. I am a man walking in a male body and simply do not have any contact with men that overtly would make such statements about women. I did have one friend that I was surprised to find out was abusive to women. I could see in hind sight the possibility. Most guys that I know do not see the relationship between men and women the way that you describe. In fact, some may feel that women have the upper hand today. I think that it is debatable. Societally, women still struggle in some areas. I don’t know any men that discuss feteishizing transwomen. It just never comes up in conversations.

Our realities seem to be quite different.

transcendMental

Aug 31, 2013, 10:37 PM

“I suspect many don't want us to be equal. For many men it was handy when women were not seen as equal. They had control, and could use and abuse women as suited them and had tacit approval of their cultures. Similarly with us: it's easier to keep us around for your dalliance if we're oppressed and dependent on you. But not everyone who fetishizes us feels that way. Some just aren't aware of the injustice, haven't thought about it, don't know the murder/violence statistics and would be troubled by them.”

Again, such scenarios are not part of my life. I am a man walking in a male body and simply do not have any contact with men that overtly would make such statements about women. I did have one friend that I was surprised to find out was abusive to women. I could see in hind sight the possibility. Most guys that I know do not see the relationship between men and women the way that you describe. In fact, some may feel that women have the upper hand today. I think that it is debatable. Societally, women still struggle in some areas. I don’t know any men that discuss feteishizing transwomen. It just never comes up in conversations.

Our realities seem to be quite different.

I'm sure our realities are quite different. But I'm not talking about current prevailing attitudes toward women. I'm talking about "when women were not seen as equal". When we couldn't vote. When we were viewed as property. Today things are better, but there are still bosses who will ask the female manager to make coffee, rather than the male office assistant. But I maintain in those older days, many men found the inequality very convenient, and this played into their opposition to women's rights. I think today that it's the loss of comparative privilege that gives some men the illusion that women have any kind of upper hand.

And I'm not talking about confronting people who talk about fetishizing transpeople. I'm talking about calling out anyone who says anything derogatory, demeaning, dehumanizing, ignorant, etc. about gender variance - transitioned transsexuals, cross-dressers, shemales, shit even homosexuality and bisexuality are gender variant. Or uses demeaning language (or tone) in referring to us. What I was saying about fetishists was that if you fetishize us, at least have the balls to stick up for us when we're getting beat up outside a police station. Or when your dumbass officemate says something about the fuckin heshes they saw on the corner last night.

DuckiesDarling

Sep 1, 2013, 3:18 AM

TM, that is a horrific story to read. I feel so bad for their family and I understand what you are asking. Those of us that see our trans friends as just friends are already used to taking up for them, the same as if someone called someone a fag or a dyke or a nigger or cracker or any of the many offensive things that can be said about someone based on phyical characteristics or sexual preferences. I think it's fair to ask those that fantasize about and fetishize trans people to take offense not because they are interested in Trans but because they are interested in humanity. It's too late for this poor woman but it's not too late for the rest.

tenni

Sep 1, 2013, 7:15 AM

“And I'm not talking about confronting people who talk about fetishizing transpeople. I'm talking about calling out anyone who says anything derogatory......”

I see them as one in the same initially.

However, I feel more comfortable dealing with people who say derrogatory statements than those who fetishize transpeople. I can not really distinguish between a bi man who writes that he finds "she males" hot and one who fetishizing transpeople. Yes, he is using an offensive term to trans people because he has probably become aware of transwomen as presented in "tranny" porn. He only seems to know this in a sexual fantasy manner and not the real person that you are asking us to see trans people as. Are all bimen (really pansexuals) who find transwomen hot fetishizing trans people? Or are some just horn dog pansexual men who are only looking at this from a sexual porn perspective?

I hope that you understand that I am not meaning to be derogatory but to examine this "fan" not stepping forward to defend trans people issue.

darkeyes

Sep 1, 2013, 7:27 AM

Long Duck Dong

Sep 1, 2013, 7:48 AM

I appreciate your enthusiasm for us.

But you can't convince me that the murder rate of transpeople is 20 times higher than the general public, without us being devalued as humans. I've never bought the argument that women get raped because they wear short skirts, or flirt and don't put out. They are raped because some jackass thinks women are worth so little that they can treat them how they want. Same with transpeople. We are not murdered because of our actions. We are murdered because there is a problem with how we are seen and valued by society.

And I don't object to people having their fantasies and fetishes. But those need to come with a healthy dose of respect, preferably without hypocrisy. In other words, if you're truly a fan of transpeople, then start acting like a fan. Speak out. In real life.

I would not even try, tho I also bear in mind that stats can make anything look horrific simply cos of the way they present things..... and what i mean by that is that the stats for hetero people do not look as bad because there is so many of them, so statistically things do not look at bad until you look at something like the norway massacre

I have been a street fighter for too bloody long and I can give you a lot of insight into the minds of the mongrels that targetted the trans lady...... what may seem like a simple not offensive / non provocative gesture by them, when dealing with street thugs, can actually be the spark that starts the fire.... it may have been something as simple as somebody pointing out the fact they were trans folk.. and the mere act of failing to react to the homophobic remarks could have been the catalyst for what happened.....

there have been a few times when something on the spur of the moment like somebody just laughing as a way of showing that the remarks were not affecting the trans people and that they were not going to be puled down by offensive things said to them, that have started what could have been a nasty event and I have had to stare down some very aggressive people that could not handle the idea that the trans people were not scared of them or going to acknowledge their BS

in a lot of cases, its not a case of devaluing the trans but looking for a target to bully or worse.... and for a good many people its not actually a need to bully but a fear of trans people... the inability to relate to them... and the reaction is one that can truly be called phobic

the trouble with asking people to speak out in real life, is like asking a fan of a sports team to speak out when there is the possibly that they are talking to sports hooligans or supporters of a rival team so there is the risk of a argument and tense moments..... with trans fans, they run the risk of becoming a target themselves because of their interest and support of trans people... and for many people the risks and issues outweigh the pros of supporting the ones they want to be closer to..... I know one guy whose wife is fine with him having some trans friends but if she ever found out that he desired them sexually, a divorce would be the least of his worries, she would go out of her way to destroy his life and reputation.........

then you have the people like me, I will look out for and protect my trans friends as best i can, as long as they are not the ones that started the issue by leading some guy on and leading him to believe that he is with a female..... I respect the fact that trans people want to be see for the gender they are, not were but some guys do not see things that way and I am known as a person that does say, look for the people that will accept you for you, not the ones that you have to lie and mislead, cause the cost is just not worth it and I have buried too many friends over the years........

I have been asked why i stand up for the * freaks * and my answer has often been I don't, I stand up for the people that the freaks are always trying to tear down.......it generally takes some of the village idiots a while to work out what I am saying.... and the honest truth is that while the LGBT can give as good as they get, 75% of the time, its not the LGBT that come out of their corner swinging their fists and working their mouths.......

transcend, I will be honest about one thing... and that is the constant statements about how a targetted group are not targetted because of anything they do, is far from the truth and I say that as a person that used to be a barman / bouncer at a LGBT bar and there was many occasions when it was the mouths of the LGBT that started the issues.... and I see the trans people in the same way as if they did nothing at all, in cases like what you posted, they would be the only group in the world that is like that..... and I mean that to cover everything from the non provocative things to the issues such as misleading / flirting with strangers / drunk guys... and its the things that are not seen as dangerous behievour that can end up being the most dangerous...... thats not to say that people should not do them, its just saying that we can not always lay all of the blame of everybody else.........and that can be a tragic aspect of why some trans people are not with us today.......

if you want a honest answer out of me if I think things will get better.... I can not with all honesty, say yes.... as while tolerance and acceptance is on the increase, so is the tragic deaths as a result of a society that is also acting more aggressively and viciously against their fellow man..... and all i can hope for is that people find a safe haven with people that accept them rather than in the hands of the people that don't..... cos in my day, even with people like me on the streets with our issues and fists, you were still safer than on the streets today.........and that gives me grave concerns for the future of the human race.......

Annika L

Sep 1, 2013, 3:43 PM

I also bear in mind that stats can make anything look horrific simply cos of the way they present things..... and what i mean by that is that the stats for hetero people do not look as bad because there is so many of them, so statistically things do not look at bad until you look at something like the norway massacre

Wow, duck. As the local math-police, I'm afraid I gotta call you on this. I don't think the figures cited are terribly ambiguous or presented in a complicated way: one in twelve transpeople are murdered? It is a relative frequency. Doesn't matter if that's 1 in 12 in a group of 144 or 1 in 12 in a group of 300,000,000...it's 1 in 12! It might actually look worse if it was 1 in 12 in the general public, since it would amount to a much higher number of murders. The other number cited is that this is 20 times greater than the murder rate in the general population...pretty straightforward.

Yes, statistics can be used to mislead. But for cryin' out loud, that doesn't mean that whenever somebody cites statistics, they are misleading!

Long Duck Dong

Sep 2, 2013, 3:04 AM

I am saying that I see beyond the stats, as I am not seeing trans being murdered, I am seeing people that are also trans being murdered, so I am humanizing the trans people, not dehumanizing them to just trans as if they are some type of non human entity....

if one of my trans friends is murdered, I do not see a 1 in 12 murder ratio, I see a friend, a family member, a worker, a loved part of the community, a partner, the aspects of the person that are not counted.... and if they are trans but do not label themselves as trans on official documents then they are officially not counted as a person that is trans, they become just a statistic for another bean counter....... and that lowers the count of people that are trans statistically.....

a number of my trans friends do not list themselves as trans officially because of the laws that apply to them and the restrictions and issues it can cause... yet they are no less trans then a person that is fully acknowledged as trans officially.....and they are both people.....

so when they say 1 in 12 I think of the ones that are not counted, the people that are trans and not acknowledge, the partners, the lovers, the family members, the people..... and I see more than a number and a stat.... I see people like marie delta, transcendmental, melissa maven and my trans friends in NZ and other places..... and I also see the people like me that can inflict so much harm and destruction.... and I do ask how do you stop people like me, because we are who we are... and for people like me, you need prisons, not hugs and kisses and talks and stats.....

Mike2922

Sep 2, 2013, 2:33 PM

Was she killed because she was a Transgender? or was it simply a robbery were someone got killed? She had some money and a very nice house and an expensive car...for that neighborhood. This is a local story for me...the area where she lived isn't exactly an area I'd want to be in after dark... or run out of gasoline...even during the day. It's sad that anyone is killed for a few dollars or the promise of money...transgender, bi, straight what ever...it's a sad thing period.

Mike2922

Sep 2, 2013, 2:37 PM

oh and yes...Transgender fan here BTW http://titsanddicks.tumblr.com/ http://titsandcock.tumblr.com/ http://girlymen.tumblr.com/ and of swing clubs/parties that let them in