Bisexual vs Pansexual

[ClaraBrooks]

So, I attempted to tackle the strange issue of bisexualism vs pansexualism. Not sure that I got there, but still, reflection is always good :D

http://clarabrooks.wordpress.com/2013/07/29/bisexuality-vs-pansexuality-vs-the-world/

I was a little worried about writing this piece that I'd end up being offensive to the trnasexual community, which is not my intent. As th epiece states though, I've had ideological disagreements in the past and I don't see how one gets around this, or that one should if one is going to think and discuss issues. I think it's a matter of respectful disagreements vs trying to erase someone's viewpoint.

Anyway, hope someone enjoys this blog.


****

Congratulations, it’s a boy” or “Congrats, it’s a girl” are probably the first words you’ll ever hear and as such they will come to define the very essence of your being. From the moment of their utterance your mother and father will be making plans and assumptions about your life and how you will live it based on the information they give. How you look and behave, what you like to do, your emotions, behaviours, career, educational ability and … your sexuality. Even the conscientious parent who determines not to bring up their child with gender bias will not be able to escape many of these assumptions and certainly, even if they could, the rest of whatever culture you live in, from school to media and advertising and friends will fill in those gaps.

The boy/girl binary creates us and consumes us . One can easily imagine an alternate world in which the first words uttered are “Congratulations, it’s a blonde” or “Congratulations, a brunette” an how different would the world look? Instead of whether you have a penis or vagina, babies would be divided up on the basis of their hair colour, told what they like and how to behave and what they find attractive. Simply blonde’s fancy brunettes and brunettes are crazy about blondes. It doesn’t matter what’s down below (or out front) it’s their hair colour that’s important to attraction and who their best friends at school are. I can equally imagine someone telling me that this thought experiment is absolute garbage because the difference between boys and girls is innately obvious, whereas there’s no obvious difference in the way people behave according to hair colour (despite the fact that for so many years redheads were considered to be “temperamental, of course) but that just goes to show how much stock we place on the identification of our personalties with gender. “I was born like it – this is me, I can be no other way”

please read the rest here (http://clarabrooks.wordpress.com/2013/07/29/bisexuality-vs-pansexuality-vs-the-world/)

[tenni]

" Bisexuality and pan sexuality basically mean the same thing, though bisexuality has always meant ideological freedom to me, whereas pan sexuality has always been represented by people telling me I’m “doing queer/gender/gay wrong”.And so I call myself bisexual because it remains liberating to me. If you like pansexual though, go for it. If you want to change your biological, sexual, or gender identity in any way, then go for it."

I think the writer is mixing up gender issues with sexuality issues and terms.

For me, bisexuality is different from pansexuality. Pansexuality includes attraction (sexual and or emotional) to a person regardless of their gender. This includes the third gender of transexual.

The question for me is that what if you are not attracted to transexuals? What are you? I think that space is bisexuality. If a person is attracted to only cisgender but both cisgenders or some transitioned transexuals, they are bisexual. Pansexuals include the third gender and you are attracted to a person regardless of their gender, cis or trans. Some bisexual men are strongly attracted to transwomen in transition. I would say that they are pansexuals.

Transpeople who are attracted to both genders are considered bisexual. Or are they pansexuals? If they are attracted to other transexuals whether in transition or having completed then I would say that they are pansexuals. The line that a person is attracted to the person regardless of their gender is how I have considered pansexual.

I also suspect that for many of cisgender people, this is an issue that does not impact them nor do they wish to become too involved with. Some bisexuals who become GLBT political get involved with gender issues but most don't if they are cisgender. Bisexual issues are not trans issues specifically just as bisexual issues are not necessarily gay issues. There may be some overlap depending upon the issue but all three are different with their own needs and issues imo. There should be no attempt for transpeople to lay guild on cisgender people like the OP seems to refer to. It is ok to explain transgender issues but there must be a line where explaining becomes propaganda.

[ClaraBrooks]

I think the writer is mixing up gender issues with sexuality issues and terms.

I think that gender and sexuality are very much linked, which is why you see me as mixing the two- that's why I wrote a fairly long preface about gender. To me, writing the piece was as much about breaking down those walls as anything else and it's about not putting things in boxes.


For me, bisexuality is different from pansexuality. Pansexuality includes attraction (sexual and or emotional) to a person regardless of their gender. This includes the third gender of transexual.

Again, that's why I tried to highlight that biological sex and genderare strongly interlinked, in that one is put into gender shaped boxes based on what one's biological sex happens to be. That's what the opening paragraphs are all about :confused:


The question for me is that what if you are not attracted to transexuals? What are you? I think that space is bisexuality

I find bisexuals very physically attractive and I regard myself as bisexual. Physically they are not made up of anything significantly different that one would find on other sexes, and physical attraction, at least, is not based on notions of not fitting into gender-boxes.

For me, it's that others are confusing sexual attraction with transexual liberation and that they want to create "pansexuality" as a space for transgendered people to exist outside of the traditional sexual steretypes. I'm cool with that, for what it's worth, but it's not something that ideologically works for me.

[darkeyes]

I have never considered myself str8.. well maybe at age 7 or 8:eek2:...but even then knew I was a bit diff from the norm or at least wot wos considered the norm:).. for a long time considered meself bisexual until one day it wos pointed out to me that I wos a raging lessie:yikes2:.. on this site first and foremost by a m8... got rite uptite bout it an all:eek2:...he also called me a misandrist not long after...but then he did get a lot wrong luffly gadge tho he is:impleased... some dimwits still believe that I am just that... took me a long time to come to terms wiv the fact of my sexuality change for it was a change I simply hadn't noticed or considered..... but in the end does the label of our sexuality matter:confused:? Not really.. only the reality of it...being called gay, lessie, bi or pansexual.. even str8.. isn't that important save as an easy way to define a small if important part of what we are to others.. and even then haff the time we are wrong 'bout ourselves just as they r often wrong about us.... so it isn't even a very good way of id-ing what we r,,, only a rough guide.. we r peeps 1st and foremost.. human beings... wot we like and who we fancy is wot we like and who we fancy.. I consider meself lesbian and call myself such.. but who knos wot else lurks in the deepest recesses of me sexuality? I just don't knock meself out and over the head bout it... not ne more..:)

[transcendMental]

Clara, your essay states "According to the way I understand gender,” I argued “You cannot actually be a different gender from the sex you are born."

If this is the case, then you do seem to be understanding gender incorrectly.

Sex is about what's between your legs (or if you want to get picky, about what's in your chromosomes, although most people I know haven't ever had their chromosomes analyzed). Gender, by contrast, is about how you act/dress/interact. Each society defines what is meant by masculine and feminine, and it expects male-sexed people to behave masculinely and female-sexed people to behave femininely. Most males have a mix of masculine and feminine traits but are predominantly masculine. Females are the reverse. So in that sense, there is wide latitude for having your sex and gender differ. When a woman is assertive, sports a buzz cut, and wears overalls (in Western cultures anyway), her gender does not match her sex (this is society's call - she's not acting like society expects women to act). But of course this is nothing like transsexualism.

To get transsexualism, you have to understand gender identity. This is a deeply felt sense of which gender you should be - really, it's a deeply felt sense of which sex you are (this has always been my subjective experience of it anyway). For most people, their gender identity matches their sex perfectly, and so most are not even aware of the concept of gender identity - they think of it as synonymous with gender (and/or with sex). But transsexuals are those whose gender identity does not match their physical sex.

The term cisgender simply refers to the opposite: those whose gender identity does match their physical sex. It's not a term to agree or disagree with using, nor a term to be comfortable with or offended by; it's just a term with a specific meaning.

No, you don't have to state that you were born female and live your life as a woman. But that's part of the privilege of being cisgender: if you're living your life as a woman, it's a default assumption that you were born female; and vice versa, if you are born female, it's the default assumption that you'll grow up to be a woman. But a transperson might well be born male-bodied, but have a female gender identity, and need at some point in their life to transition and live as a woman.

There's a lot to know and understand here. I don't condemn you as discriminatory, based on your essay. But I do think your statements could well be offensive to transpeople, and you could stand to learn a bit more about these topics, if you're going to include them in your writing. I'm hoping this is a helpful starting point.

tm

[transcendMental]

For me, bisexuality is different from pansexuality. Pansexuality includes attraction (sexual and or emotional) to a person regardless of their gender. This includes the third gender of transexual.

tenni, I agree that bisexual and pansexuality are different. But I do disagree with your referencing of "transsexual" as a gender. I am a transsexual. My gender (and gender identity) is female - that's why I am transsexual. If you doubt, then ask yourself, "how does society expect transsexuals to behave? to dress? to interact with others?" Answers to those questions would start to provide a gender associated with us. But the sheer fact that there are MtF and FtM transsexuals says that there is not one way that society expects transsexuals to behave, dress, interact, etc. Transsexual is not a gender; it's a medical condition in which one's gender identity does not match one's physical sex. BUT, this is not to say that there is no third gender (or fourth, or 90th). Many people who identify as transgender, genderqueer, crossdressers, and yes, some who identify as transgender (as well as some who identify as LGB) seem to identify as neither masculine nor feminine, and support the idea of a third gender; and quite possibly more than a third. But do not mistake this for transsexualism. It is just open-minded gender fluidity and a resistance to being packaged/labeled into neat gender boxes.

[ClaraBrooks]

Most males have a mix of masculine and feminine traits but are predominantly masculine. Females are the reverse. So in that sense, there is wide latitude for having your sex and gender differ. When a woman is assertive, sports a buzz cut, and wears overalls (in Western cultures anyway), her gender does not match her sex (this is society's call - she's not acting like society expects women to act). But of course this is nothing like transsexualism.

I think the ideological difference comes about when people take on board a gender as if they seem how "own" it in the same way as they do their biology. I am biologically male or female, physically, I know this because I have a penis or a vagina. I am "gendered male or female and I know this because .... I have a adopted a certain number of traits and personality types that society has decreed belong to one gender or another. The fundamental difference, as I see it, is that there is no substantial, concrete thing that one can actual call "gender". it's actually a construct of the patriarchy or society, or what you will ... you cannot, I don't think inherently "be" a gender, gender is performative, one lives a role, a role that is designated either male or female according to the current trends of the time.

Like I said, I have no problems with anyone living their life in whatever performative manner they choose. On the contrary I would actively encourage people to bend gender norms - I think it's completely awesome. (though the reality is with Transgendered people, as I understand, people feel a huge amount of pain and anguish about feeling trapped in the wrong body, and that's not awesome at all) but because of this I have issues with the notion of cisgender being applied outside of transgendered people, because it seems to describe an experience for them rather than asomething tangible for others.

[tenni]

tenni, I agree that bisexual and pansexuality are different. But I do disagree with your referencing of "transsexual" as a gender. I am a transsexual. My gender (and gender identity) is female - that's why I am transsexual. If you doubt, then ask yourself, "how does society expect transsexuals to behave? to dress? to interact with others?" Answers to those questions would start to provide a gender associated with us. But the sheer fact that there are MtF and FtM transsexuals says that there is not one way that society expects transsexuals to behave, dress, interact, etc. Transsexual is not a gender; it's a medical condition in which one's gender identity does not match one's physical sex. BUT, this is not to say that there is no third gender (or fourth, or 90th). Many people who identify as transgender, genderqueer, crossdressers, and yes, some who identify as transgender (as well as some who identify as LGB) seem to identify as neither masculine nor feminine, and support the idea of a third gender; and quite possibly more than a third. But do not mistake this for transsexualism. It is just open-minded gender fluidity and a resistance to being packaged/labeled into neat gender boxes.

Sorry Transcendmental Would it the be acceptable to refer to transgender as the third gender rather than transsexual? I have read the reference to a third gender.

To be honest though as a bisexual cis man, when I read about the list that you posted regarding transgender, genderqueer, etc. my mind glazes over and it is so far removed from my reality that I can not identify or associate myself. I mean no disrespect and I can partially empathize but I can not relate to your reality. I do however think of you based on your writing as a sweet lovely lady that I might enjoy flirting with(go figure).


“As someone who always thought of herself as bisexual I was suddenly faced with discussions with a tight knit group of people who very strongly believed that if I didn’t actually call myself Pansexual then I wasn’t appreciating that there are more than 2 genders (as if a gender is a real thing?) and that I would therefore be erasing transgendered people and I’d be a bit of a nasty person.”


What are the genders(including transgender) and sexuality of this tight knit group consisting of? Respecting a person’s gender whether cisgender or transgender has little to do with bisexuality and distinguishing it from pansexuality imo.

[transcendMental]

I think the ideological difference comes about when people take on board a gender as if they seem how "own" it in the same way as they do their biology. I am biologically male or female, physically, I know this because I have a penis or a vagina. I am "gendered male or female and I know this because .... I have a adopted a certain number of traits and personality types that society has decreed belong to one gender or another. The fundamental difference, as I see it, is that there is no substantial, concrete thing that one can actual call "gender". it's actually a construct of the patriarchy or society, or what you will ... you cannot, I don't think inherently "be" a gender, gender is performative, one lives a role, a role that is designated either male or female according to the current trends of the time.

Like I said, I have no problems with anyone living their life in whatever performative manner they choose. On the contrary I would actively encourage people to bend gender norms - I think it's completely awesome. (though the reality is with Transgendered people, as I understand, people feel a huge amount of pain and anguish about feeling trapped in the wrong body, and that's not awesome at all) but because of this I have issues with the notion of cisgender being applied outside of transgendered people, because it seems to describe an experience for them rather than asomething tangible for others.

I appreciate your response here. I agree that gender is performative, and that it is an abuse of language to say that you "are" a gender. If you meant to say that there is also no way to be the same gender as the sex you were born, then this makes sense to me. But that didn't come across in your piece.

Some of the issue is with the concept of "performative" though. That sounds like acting. My "acting like a woman" is no more of a performance than yours. It stems from my gender identity as your performance stems from yours. Our (your and my) gender identity tells us that we should adopt the qualities that our society associates with females. Not every one of those qualities sits well with us, so we discard or rebel against some of them, but by and large, we gravitate toward feminine forms. For a ciswoman, that's fine, expected. For a (nontransitioned) transwoman, it is far from expected and frequently not tolerated: transwomen (and transmen) are generally pressured/forced to behave in ways that feel very unnatural to us.

So it isn't "taking on board" a gender; or rather it is "taking on board" a gender in exactly the same measure as anyone else. But it is "taking on board" a gender that is at variance with one's physical sex. But again, "taking on board" sounds like a choice, whereas in fact, we all (cis and trans alike) adopt the gender traits dictated by our gender identity. And that's a matter of brain physicality, not choice. (That same brain physicality, btw, is responsible for the anguish you refer to, because of the combination of brain dictating behavior traits that aren't tolerated by society and just a physical disconnect of brain chemistry expecting hormones that our bodies don't naturally produce.)

The point is that it's not about choice; it's about who you are. Face it: you didn't choose to take on board feminine traits. You took them on because of who you were. You couldn't handle being a man if your brain was plopped into one's body - between society's expectations and the replacement of estrogen by testosterone, it would drive you nuts. I know. I've experienced it. Similarly, no man could handle having his brain plopped into a woman's body. This is the "ownership" thing you're referring to. And no, it's not really ownership. But our gender is inextricably associated with us nonetheless in exactly the same way as our biology (and for the same reasons, as our gender identity is dictated to us by our biology).

tm

[NakedInSeattle]

For my $0.02, it's a distinction without a difference...or the other way around...LOL

[transcendMental]

Sorry Transcendmental Would it the be acceptable to refer to transgender as the third gender rather than transsexual? I have read the reference to a third gender.


"Acceptable" is relative, naturally. To me? To transsexuals? To transgender people? To third gender people? To people on this site?

I think calling "transgender" a third gender is more accurate than calling "transsexual" a third gender. But "transgender" describes such a host of realities that I think that still oversimplifies things. Transgender really isn't a gender either - it's an adjective that applies to a large group of gender variant identifications.

I'm afraid that I've never heard any name put to this "third gender", if it exists. I know there are people who identify that way (third gender), so you're definitely correct about its existence. But from what I've heard about it, it seems to me less like a third gender than various genders that differ from the two main ones. It reinforces my notion of a broad gender spectrum that contains masculine and feminine, but not necessarily as the two poles or extremes. And some of the many people who don't identify strictly as "masculine" or "feminine" find themselves without a name for their gender and call it "third gender". But it would be nice if (for the benefit of people like you and me for whom the two standard genders are sufficient) if some third gender people would introspect enough to come up with a decent descriptive name for the gender they feel themselves to be. The responses to that could help us to understand if it's really a third gender (if many of the names were similar or seemed to be describing the same thing), or a large number of genders.

My 2 cents anyway.

[curious44]

For my $0.02, it's a distinction without a difference...or the other way around...LOL BINGO! My thoughts exactly, NIS. From puberty on I just liked sexual activity no matter who it was with so I called myself Bi until my later years when I realized gay was probably more accurate. I never had the opportunity to experience pleasure with a trans person but I most certainly would have if the opportunity arose. So I guess I was Tri, not just Bi. Or is it now Pan? Or whatever? Who cares? Not me.

[tenni]

Well, TranscendMental third gender may be like the word "bisexual" and both may have multi groups under their umbrellas? One is gender and the other is sexuality though.

I would suspect curious44 based on what you wrote, that you may be pansexual..then again if you identify as gay(at the moment) that also work. You may not care but some people need that label. Others need to have a simpler label to comprehend other sexuality beyond their own monosexual label? I think that labels have a place for some people and perhaps not for others like you.

[BiRobb]

I think it's right to say that you are the sex you are born for now... medical science is on the verge or changing that from what i have read. (But that's neither here nor there). There are transsexuals who consider themselves female and still retain their male genitalia. It really depends on how you see the definition of the word while medically you might be male because of the chromosome thing legally you are a female once you have successfully undergone sexual reassignment surgery (at least that's the case in the country I live in). So it really depends on your point of view... that being said I have no problem with thinking of and referring to transsexual men as women in that sense of the word. But biologically speaking females carry the eggs and males carry the sperm. I think that most transgendered men really want to be thought of a feminine more so than strictly female; and part of that does involve being referred to by the rest of society as female which doesn't bother me one bit. The only situation where it might be considered wrong would be not to tell your Doctor because you feel less feminine. If you are male biologically speaking your medical treatment might differ from how a Dr. would treat someone who was born female and the Dr. has right to know so he or she can do their job properly. I guess what I'm talking about is gender identity vs. gender biology.

As for the pan vs. bi my understanding is that bisexuals distinguish between the sex of their partners in the psychological sense, but true pansexuals don't care what sex their partner(s) are... or maybe that's omisexuals or is that the same thing... oh yeah and just to make the issue more confusing what about polysexuals?

[Long Duck Dong]

"Acceptable" is relative, naturally. To me? To transsexuals? To transgender people? To third gender people? To people on this site?

I think calling "transgender" a third gender is more accurate than calling "transsexual" a third gender. But "transgender" describes such a host of realities that I think that still oversimplifies things. Transgender really isn't a gender either - it's an adjective that applies to a large group of gender variant identifications.

I'm afraid that I've never heard any name put to this "third gender", if it exists. I know there are people who identify that way (third gender), so you're definitely correct about its existence. But from what I've heard about it, it seems to me less like a third gender than various genders that differ from the two main ones. It reinforces my notion of a broad gender spectrum that contains masculine and feminine, but not necessarily as the two poles or extremes. And some of the many people who don't identify strictly as "masculine" or "feminine" find themselves without a name for their gender and call it "third gender". But it would be nice if (for the benefit of people like you and me for whom the two standard genders are sufficient) if some third gender people would introspect enough to come up with a decent descriptive name for the gender they feel themselves to be. The responses to that could help us to understand if it's really a third gender (if many of the names were similar or seemed to be describing the same thing), or a large number of genders.

My 2 cents anyway.

In NZ as of dec 2012, people have been allowed to use the X term to define themselves instead of male or female... and as I fit the criteria for using the X option I was offered the opportunity to use it.... but X is still not really a acknowledgement of what I am, its merely another broad term that has become a umbrella for trans sexual, trans gender, gender queer, gender neutral, intersex and any one of the other 30 odd definitions that can be used.....

others like myself have debated the choice as if do we want to use it or not.. but already we have become aware that other people have moved to secure it as the * correct * term for people to use and that we * must * define ourselves as X because we are not male or female...... and that is why it has not become a choice for many, but merely a case of what side of the fence we would be choosing to stand on, when the simple truth is we are just acknowledging how we see ourselves better

[tenni]

It is all fine and dandy philosophically and egalitarian to argue that words such as bisexual and pansexual, trangender, gender queer, interest etc. may become involved in an ever deconstruction of language. There comes a point when those who claim not to "fit in" with a category label etc. may deconstruct gender and sexuality negating even basic terms. There really needs to be a point where groups are large enough such as bisexual, heterosexual, homosexual where definitions need to be respected. Otherwise. we no longer have language and semantics. Newer terms may be created but there will always be some character arguing that term doesn't apply to them. ;)

[curious44]

Well, TranscendMental third gender may be like the word "bisexual" and both may have multi groups under their umbrellas? One is gender and the other is sexuality though.

I would suspect curious44 based on what you wrote, that you may be pansexual..then again if you identify as gay(at the moment) that also work. You may not care but some people need that label. Others need to have a simpler label to comprehend other sexuality beyond their own monosexual label? I think that labels have a place for some people and perhaps not for others like you. Thanks for understanding my post as it was meant. I expected a flame or two because I don't get caught up in labels. Putting ourselves in little boxes with a name on them seems to be all the rage these days.

[transcendMental]

Well, TranscendMental third gender may be like the word "bisexual" and both may have multi groups under their umbrellas? One is gender and the other is sexuality though.

That is a very interesting thought, tenni, seeing "third gender" as an umbrella to describe many variant genders. It helps me to get my head around it. But it does seem a bad choice of words, since it implies that it's a single gender, specifically, the third one. I guess some day I'll be God and then I'll get to make up the words, right?

[scapegoat1987]

This discussion is precisely the reason I often identify as simply "Queer," because it's an umbrella term that covers everyone. My own experience of being attracted more to the masculine gender, regardless of whether it applies to a cis man, cis woman or trans-identified person, than to a particular biological sex tends to color my own perceptions of what is pansexual and what is simply bisexual. I don't generally identify as pansexual, because I find it difficult enough to get people to respect and understand bisexuality. However, I do feel that I'm certainly more pansexual in that I'm likewise attracted to masculine-identified trans persons and masculine-identified gender variant persons. Femininity doesn't do much for me in either men, women or a third gender. I certainly agree with the premise that gender is performative as well, and I certainly appreciate the fact that someone started this thread. I believe it's a discussion that needs to be explored.

[Wombatso]

I am pansexual. My sexual attraction not purely to male and female but to more than that. I especially knew a hermaphrodite who was beautiful, sexy, intelligent and hot in bed. I always wanted more.

[Jason0012]

I would probably be more precise identifying as pan or omnisexual. I identify as bisexual because1) I am, so it isn't incorrect, and 2) pansexual/omnisexual tends to lead to entirely too much explanation. Being lazy I tend to not want to get into the lengthy explanation that I honestly do not have a gender preference, but am rather more interested in the person than what variety of parts they have. Bisexuality is a concept most people have at the very least heard of, though the common misconceptions about bisexuals can lead to other tedious explanations.