Kate and William

[Besos para ella]

Congratulations on their baby... so excited!


The baby was actually born at 4.24pm.
The Prince of Cambridge weighs 8lbs 6oz.
Prince William was present at the birth.



Yayyyyyyyyy

[IndyBiFun]

Ellie, I agree.

Good for them and for England. I'm sure both will be good parents.

And I'm sure Diana was there with Kate today.

[Gearbox]

Another 27 kids and they'll get out of paying the Spare Room Tax.:bounce:

[tenni]

A spare room tax?

Oh my...and so the Facebook jokes begin.

17406

[darkeyes]

Good grief:eek2:... am keeping me face shut... how to make a nation (and not necessarily me own judging by the reaction in the gr8 republic ova the water) go all gooey and dreamy eyed and soft in't head in 1 easy lesson..

[DuckiesDarling]

I was very happy to hear she gave birth and that both are doing fine. That's a big baby so Poo to the ones that commented on her weight. I just hope the baby brings move revenue into that country.

[darkeyes]

I wish no one harm and am glad he is a healthy child... but revenue? Christ... is 'bout the main thing royalists go on about is how much money his family brings in the country.. and how it wud b less if they weren't there.. well.. France is a republic.. their tourism is 4 or 5 times that of the UK and so that knocks that 1 on head.... and there are far more important things a possible future head of state shuld stand for than just simply money and tourism... and defence of the status quo

This child is but the latest addition to a family which represents privilege, wealth, deference, snobbery, class warfare and toadying, and as long as it holds the reigns of constitutional power prevents this country from being a truly democratic state.. the Windsors dumb us down politically and turn grown, normally quite intelligent human beings into near brain dead mush. and in time HRH Junior will do his bit to make sure that things stay that way....

Let's hope by the time Jnrs dad pop's his clogs we have no more Kings or Queens and have a proper, mature democracy and that the wee mite can find himself a proper job that accident of birth plays no part in his appointment!!

[jamieknyc]

I have been trying for years to explain to people in America that many British people view the royal family as a taxpayer-funded boondoggle. No one believes it.

[long fuse]

God save the King! In this world of never ending grief, and drama being played out on the four corners of the globe, this is great to hear.

[tenni]

"God save the King!"

Really? I'm living in a Commonwealth country and "technically" the new baby is lined up to be our king. You never know what is going to happen after the Queen dies though.
Still, I suspect that it is inappropriate to say "God Save the King" when we have "the" Queen presently. The other two are in line and if they succeed to the throne they will be kings. Until then, there is no King...lol

Canada acknowledged the birth of the Prince of Cambridge by lighting up Parliament, the CN Tower (Toronto) and Niagara Falls in a bath of blue light last night.

Then you have the Quebecois taking the government to court over the new law about succession. Some immigrants refusing to pledge allegiance to the Queen as part of the oath of citizenship. (another group taking this oath requirement of citizenship to court). The Quebecois are sort of like the Scots...lol ;) (teas'n dark eyes)

[long fuse]

Try not to take me so literal, Tenni. As I said, it's nice that something brand new and shiney can be celebrated. That's all.

[darkeyes]

Try not to take me so literal, Tenni. As I said, it's nice that something brand new and shiney can be celebrated. That's all.Anything brand new and shiny can be celebrated from children to missiles.. whether it is nice and is worthy of celebration is a matter for some debate.. something like a third of the British people would take issue with the fact that this is a birth worth celebrating... and a fair proportion of the remainder are ambivalent at best...I can easily celebrate a new life, but I am unable to celebrate the purpose of that new life when its primary purpose is to foster class division, privilege, deference for our "betters" and the perpetuation of an insidious institution which exists to ensure that the status quo prevails and prevent the UK at the very least from being a modern society with a truly democratic political system and exists for the preservation of the power and wealth of the privileged ruling elite...

[The Jackal]

So what about all other mothers who gave birth that day? they day before, today? They get no recognition like this. Just because they are *Cough*royalty*cough* they get special coverage? please..

[Besos para ella]

Wow so much hate... I only posted this thread because I think Kate is an amazing woman... much like any other... She is not from a royal background... and yes I'm not keen on the whole Royal family much like EVERYONE on here... I don't even think we will have a monarchy by the time this baby is old enough, and I'm not discriminating against all the other women who frequently give birth, or gave birth on the same day (including a friend) but the fact is, I think Kate is wonderful and I'm happy that she delivered a happy, healthy baby boy... enough said... :(

[darkeyes]

I don't hate Ellie.. not people... I do loathe the principle of monarchy and this child is intended for its perpetuation.. I wish the child a useful, long and happy even prosperous life... but not the life of enormous privilege which he will have or his intended place in our society... to loathe an institution is not necessarily to loathe the person or people although inevitably some of that will be there... Try and separate the two:bigrin:...

[ghost_of_bluebiyou]

Well stated Fran.
Although, there is an unforeseen advantage to the monarchy.
Continuancy.
Although I can understand both your social heritage...William Wallace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wallace) and your... more socialist political views, would lead you to dislike the monarchy.
But the monarchy (not unlike Roman papacy) will generally bring unity and periodically bring a slap to the face- for the betterment of mankind.

When Buckingham palace incurred it's first V2 rocket damage, the queen mum announced "Now we can hold our heads up in the East End" (the east end having already taken severe bombing from the V2s). This was horribly uniting at a horribly critical time... the war was not past, and far far far from certain. Just imagine if Britain folded from inner... disunity at the time of the V2s. Scotland would be speaking German in all likelihood.

And Lady Di! What absolute grace! Always compassionate. An inspiration to us across the water.

The royal family... as dysfunctional as many... William and Harry both kept allegiance to GB - and willingness to risk their lives - clear with their military engagement (albeit every one of their comrades would have jumped on a live grenade to save the prince).
And even we celebrated the birth of George Alexander (fantastic name by the way) over here in America.
The royal family lends continuity and human hope that our system (what criminal/sociopath republican/democrat do I vote for this time?) lacks.
The Freemasons (centuries ago in theory) had it right, mostly... but lost the hope in individual humanity of the aristocracy.
Ah, Fran, don't grudge the money for the GB aristocracy... in the usa it would just go to some temporary pocket/cause.
There will always be the have and have nots...
Just look at every socialist experiment/society. The party members mismanage things as to eliminate (any socially exorbitant existence of) middle class. There are party members (totally privileged) and serfs/peasants. The entire middle class of the western civilization/20th century is no longer a possibility.

Does anyone remember the grand unified Tienanmen Square event that failed under the socialist system? April - June 4, 1989 I think.

To have a royal family brings in ... temperance of governmental system. The royals can bring into conformity or bring widespread opposition. They have that power.

Remember what the King of Denmark did for the Jews of the country during NAZI occupation? (please everyone explore this)

Eventually, Fran we will all become serfs/peasants to a silicone God (computers)... that is the most depressingly logical forecast I have for the distant (maybe not so distant) future.
Look at China, pay close attention to China, and it's past several decades. Read the book "1984" and watch the movie "Brazil"(Terry Gilliam). There is no/little difference.

As an example of what I'm saying... about individual humanity (given automatic lifelong powers) overcoming corrupt systems I offer what a lame piece of shit my beloved Roman Catholic church had become. They were nothing more than Roman emperors for centuries, bringing about little but property/knowledge acquirement and political power (our commonly known worst example being the Spanish Inquisition), but incidentally/accidentally morality and reasoning grew. Pope Pius XII was a politically 'shrewd' bastard, but managed to oversee a church that saved 600,000 Jews from Nazis. That's 600 times Oskar Schindler. But then there was Pope John XIII, and later Pope John Paul II; each radical jumps of previous reason into... what now we take for granted.

I'm sorry you feel that way about the royal family (their public subsidization), Fran. To me, they cost about the same as any Detroit or Chicago corrupt politicians... yet offer hope no other humans can offer, to the entire western civilization. The Freemasons missed a small bit in their 18th century future seeing.


At least that's the way I see it.

[B]Long live King George Alexander (albeit prematurely assuming kingship)!

Lovingly, but accepting your different view,
Blue

[darkeyes]

I think continuity is the word u want, Blue... continuity of what? Deference to an aristocratic elite.. deference to authority.. respect for inherited power. privilege and wealth.. the continuity of class warfare.. the continuity of minimal democracy.. continuity of a feeling of superiority on the one hand by a small group of nobs and the inferiority expected to be felt by the rest of us...institutionalised snobbery far worse than can be found in any republic... we are expected to, and sadly as nation often do, buy into our own slavery... all in the name of monarchy..

Monarchy does not stand and has never stood for the betterment of humanity in its own or any other country, but the retention of power in the hands of a small, powerful, wealthy social elite and as far as it is possible so to do, retain the status quo and if possible reverse the centuries of social progress made by the people of this country and in so doing repress the great majority of those people and keep them not happy, but passive and numbed, not by fear of government in this more modern day and age, but by decades of fear of loss of job and income, of home created by act after act which has removed from the British people hard won employment protections, working conditions, pension rights, employment contract conditions, rights to organise labour, rights to take industrial action in defence of their jobs and freedoms, availability of decent housing and residency protections and in defence of their jobs... when a government in the name of monarch deprives the very poorest in the land of up to 25% of the housing benefit and cut services and financial support for the disabled and seriously ill and in the same breath hand over vast amounts of money to the very richest in tax cuts and other subisidies maybe u can see why I loathe monarchy as well as its elected mouthpiece... and there are a million and one other things which are turning the UK into an increasingly fearful place in which to live.. all of these things government does in the name of the monarch and of course in reality for its own kind as well..

The monarch is Britain's symbol of nob power. It is about divide and rule to defend its position and that of the elite which it props up and which props it up..and always has been... the absence of any reasonable debate about monarchy in this country and the childish way media, parliamentarians and others conduct any discussion about the place of the monarchy in our society prevents and decent debate ever getting off the ground.. the snivelling way the media and others treat a royal birth, wedding,.. would be laughable in any decent society.. the cult of personality such as existed over Diana, and such as they are trying with the Duchess of Cambridge is yet another way that any reasoned opposition to monarchy, and those of us who wish to see its abolition are treated as both anathema and near treacherous by media and establishment which are in reality just about the same thing......

In the name of the monarch are passed acts which continually take from the poor and give to the rich.. it has ere been thus of course.. even when in times of greatest social progress, the vast majority of ordinary people felt most benefit...even greater benefit and wealth was given to the elite... the reigns of power were never loosened and there has never been any real redistribution of power and wealth, and even with the increased democratisation of our country, any movement of power to the people was short lived and soon reversed and I would argue, entirely illusory....

Since the fall of the Brown government we have seen a massive shift of wealth and power to the ruling elite and its real paymasters.... a massive redistribution of wealth from the very poorest to the richest, and a steady reduction in living standards and real terms pay and wealth of the vast majority of people.. the wealthy and powerful and far far more wealthy and infinitely more powerful and the deference currently felt by probably the majority of the British people for monarchy, is increasingly being given also to those who are responsible for ripping them off... the public school nobs of principally the Tory party but also to a lesser degree its coalition partners the Lib Dems who are bred on the playing fields of Eton for the very purpose of perpetuating monarchy and its and their own priviege and power.... deference for monarchy is enabling its government.. its elected representatives, although we elect them, to remove at an ever increasing rate ancient freedoms and more recently hard fought ones.. we are the most spied upon people on earth and we are treated far more contemptuously by government..

..the Queen's government not ours... u do not hear her say "Your government" or even "The government" at state openings of parliament.. she says "my government".. every thing done by government and parliament are done in the name of the monarch.. not of the people... ministers are "My ministers"... the oath taken by ministers and parliamentarians of the various parliaments of the United Kingdom upon election is not to the British people, not even the British state, but to the crown... that is the reality.. government of this United Kingdom is not for its people but for its Monarch and its ruling elite... that on occasion progress will be made for the rest of us is undeniable yet even the most hardened tyrant will bend with the wind until he can bit back... and we are in such a time.. and he is biting back very hard and it hurts everyone but the monarch and that vindictive ruling elite which supports the existence of the institution of which she is head...

I do not begrudge a penny for the operating expenses of a Head of State..an elected Head of State.. as I am opposed to an hereditary head of government on principle, of course I will grudge a single penny being paid to them for their expenses.. why should I pay for my own and the British people's repression to a head of state who exists only to ensure that? We are subjects of the Crown.. citizens of the UK and also the EU, but principally and constitutionally, we are the monarch's subjects first and foremost.. rather feudal dontcha think?. As long as monarchy exists we shall continue with such outdated feudal ideas... and we shall never be our own masters.. it will be difficult enough with an elected Head of state. bceoming that. but with one which exists in perpetuity based on bloodline is an anachronism which in the 21st century should never exist in any modern so called democratic society... until it is removed and replaced with something much less feudal, it is even arguable whether we can consider ourselves a democratic society..

..and dont try and catch me with Tienanmen square.... China is not and never has been a socialist society however much u, and even the Chinese try to claim otherwise... neither was the Soviet Union and neither is Cuba, and neither is any nation on earth and never has been however much socialism is tainted with the lies of its detractors.. many nations have much which derive from socialist philosophy.. even your own.. and mine own still.. but none are socialist whatever u or anyone else try to make out.. and nations which are anything but socialist have had oppressions imposed upon them every bit as and even more brutal brutal and viscious as the Chinese crackdown of which u speak... both monarchies and republics...

In respect of the King of Denmark and the Jews of ww2.. I could outline 1000 cases of royal abuse and oppression for every decent act by any monarchy's incumbents.. not for nothing was a bloody civil war fought on these islands. not for nothing did monarchs throughout history oppress, murder and enslave people and force them to fight for their crowns against those who might just have freed them from their tyranny as well as other monarchs who did the same to their subjects or other claimants who expected just the same of the great mass of a nations people.... not for nothing did ur own land fight a bloody revolutionary war against the very crown u think I should support...William Wallace, who u mention died at the behest of one cruel monarch while fighting for another incompetent and cruel monarch... the successor of both those cruel monarchs were also cruel monarchs, butchers, and oppressors who fought not for nation, but for personal wealth and power...and yes, I do accuse that great Scottish hero, the one truly known as Braveheart (no, it was not Wallace before anyone quibbles), Robert Bruce, of being such a man... as was just about every Scottish and English monarch up to the present day... different times certainly, but we live with their legacy... the deference accorded them continues to this day to be offered to their descendants who are no more deserving of it... he was a man of his time but while I can admire much of what he did and achieved, I am not blinded by the claims of many that he fought for Scottish freedom for its own sake.. he fought for Scottish freedom for his own aggrandisement and power ambition and the nation's people were expendable in its pursuit just as all peoples of all monarchies throughout history have been expendable....... even enlightened monarchs such as James IV in whom I have always been slightly in love, were such men for while he did much for his people, in the end he expected their blind obedience which he got in spades as he led his nation to tragedy at Flodden in 1513 and with the most appalling aftermath...

The hope monarchs and monarchy offer is a false hope for most wherever they live.. what they really offer is the continued oppression the the great mass of ordinary people and the continuation of power for a small, wealthy and powerful elite of which they are a potent symbol... they offer continued privilege of a few over the many.. they suck the life out of their people by the deliberate trivialisation of their reality...they are a true cult of personality of which we would be better rid..and pdq... I do not hate the incumbents of monarchy.. but I do loathe what monarchy and its defenders stand for and the institution they represent and wish to see perpetuated.. u like our monarchy, Blue??? U have it back.. please... take it away... u are welcome to it:)...

[ghost_of_bluebiyou]

WOW
First of all before I begin any retribute,
Fran, I madly love you, in the best way. Though I'll never meet you
Naggie be blessed that she has you,vice versa and your youngins. May the God of my prayers richly bless your family with love.
Your attitude and level of understanding is unprecedented to my mind.
Void is on our level, or greater (and Realist IMNSHO when he chooses to return to earth/base)... but, LOL Void wanders a bit (God, and I love Void)! I miss our banned friend from Florida... the very conservative one who - he and his wife - enjoyed Renaissance Festivals. I don't remember his name.

You really are so brilliant... you should be in a "think tank", pondering future society.


Yet, given the prelude, I disagree with you on this subject...

more to come... I'm getting tired and we (Mrs Blue and I) have some friends we need to visit in the hospital... a gay couple we're friends with and one had triple bypass. Everything is alright now, post surgery, except feelings, etc. We need to go visit, we are friends. Emotional support is what we can give our friends at this troubled time.

Aside... isn't it amazing a triple bypass heart surgery is not even serious anymore? Just another standard operation?

Blue

[darkeyes]

:impleased U r luffly at times Blue.. but methinks u have always had a bit of an overinflated view of me intellectual gifts... have had to tell u off bout that wen u wer still alive.. no diff now yas not babes... stop it! Even if such words r gud for the ego.. just dont.. slag me off and wot I say off and b nice if u must.. dont overdo it ya daft bugga:eek2:! :love87:

Hope u find ur friends well... if only every1 gave ther friends such support at difficult times... gud onya babes..:)

[kenjacks51]

I am happy that mother and child are doing well and as a Canadian, I have great respect for Great Britian, the Commonwealth and the Royal Family. I will just add with all due respect that Kate is one absolutely lovely young woman.

[ghost_of_bluebiyou]

Ah, sorry Fran, for the excessively praising and affectionate comments. But I have to admit, you are one of the few people in the entire world who challange me (in a good way). I don't mean to impose upon your personal relationships, indeed only wish you and yours, the best.

The fellow (of the gay couple) is doing fine, we went to visit him two days after he got out of ICU. He's doing great. He and his partner loved the flowers and the portrait I took of them the weekend before (okay, I photo shopped the hell out two photos [and merged the best parts of each] to make one great portrait photo of the both of them. They loved it (I provided a good distraction during these troubled times). They're home now (they called us last night from home to thank us). I'm... a little ... I can't think of the emotional word... to think that we, only recent friends were so instantly tight with a couple of 13 years... and it seems no one else was... our small gifts were the only ones in his room. Ah, but Mrs. Blue has a rare gift... everyone loves her. She listens and loves... LOL but she is straight! When one lesbian (but married to a man) woman was her best friend for years, but started making sexual moves, whoa, Mrs. Blue backed off... totally. Yet Mrs. Blue tolerates/accepts my bisexuality... She knew about my bisexuality years before we married, and although she doesn't like the fact...

Anyway, I digress.

Fran... It seems odd to me your definition of certain socio-economic terms.

While I realize I was raised in post anti-commie USA, My understanding of communism was three phases:
revolutionary, socialist, communist.
Where the socialist marked the end of property ownership for individuals... the state owned (and could confiscate at any time) any/all property, and thus owned/commanded all means of production.
It was to be the next step that communism would naturally occur... that a people would, due to heavy industry, have all needs fulfilled in a free market place. That there would be no difference between a vegetable picker and the highest party official.
Now we (usa) live in a bastardized capitalist/socialist world. There is private ownership and private enterprize. There is also heavy taxation/penalties for the very rich. The government provides infrastructure; roads, police, judicial system, military, and rules that dampen pure capitalism... anti-trust (no monopoly) ... insider trading... etc...

Fran, why do you say the Soviet Union and China are not socialists?
They have abolished (and to some degree tolerated reinstatement of) private ownership and they have centralized command of means of production.

Blue

[darkeyes]

U can abolish private ownership and not be socialist.. Stainism and Maoism was never socialist... rule by terror and the cult of personality and where the masses have no power or proper democratic control does not equate with socialism or communism...many systems have much borrowed from socialism and communism as indeed did the USSR and China... none as yet have managed the transition to socialism... State capitalism is not socialism... a revolution in the name of socialism or communism is a relatively simple thing to fight.. creating a socialist state from a successful revolution is a much more difficult thing to achieve.. and because states and their rulers and even citizens some called themselves socialist.. does not make it so...

We live in a bastard of a capitalist world with a few socialist ideas tagged on to it in many countries.. and these ideas become fewer year on year as capital and its masters screw more and more out of ordinary people and impose ever more control upon the people and deprive us of ever greater amounts of liberty and as each year passes, also imposes ever greater amounts of slavery upon the overwhelming majority of the people of the world..... why were the USSR and China not socialist? Because as each year went by they did precisely the same to their people...

[darkeyes]

U can abolish private ownership and not be socialist.. Stainism and Maoism was never socialist... rule by terror and the cult of personality and where the masses have no power or proper democratic control does not equate with socialism or communism...many systems have much borrowed from socialism and communism as indeed did the USSR and China... none as yet have managed the transition to socialism... State capitalism is not socialism... a revolution in the name of socialism or communism is a relatively simple thing to fight.. creating a socialist state from a successful revolution is a much more difficult thing to achieve.. and because states and their rulers and even citizens some called themselves socialist.. does not make it so...

We live in a bastard of a capitalist world with a few socialist ideas tagged on to it in many countries.. and these ideas become fewer year on year as capital and its masters screw more and more out of ordinary people and impose ever more control upon the people and deprive us of ever greater amounts of liberty and as each year passes, also imposes ever greater amounts of slavery upon the overwhelming majority of the people of the world..... why were the USSR and China not socialist? Because as each year went by they did precisely the same to their people...Ouch.. nev do things in rush, Blue... Stainism? I kno it wos a bit of a stain on human beings as decent thinking and compassionate creatures but I did of course mean Stalinism.. an Maoism wasnt much betta... and they was nev socialist??? Christ.. shoot me will ya... me boss wud... trust me on that luffly tho sho assuredly is!!!:eek2:

But the hurry wos worth it.. gud nite out and had lotsa fun as well as surprise!!! Life is triff at times innit? No matter the kind of shitty system we live under:impleased!!! And no hangova this morning.. wich may b unusual but is moren cud b sed for the Naggy person:tongue: and mosta me m8s!!! Some Sunday mornings life is even better than normal!! OOOOO I am cruel!!! Just sumtimes;)!!!

[i_shoot_blanks]

I spoke with my cousin and we decided that there was enough room and that we could share our birth date with a future king of England