A different "coming out"

[void()]

For a good bit of life here on earth, I have been haunted by a debate.
It is one most folks seem to have difficulty in facing. The debate
regards religion, or lack of religion.

Today, I have finally settled this debate for myself. Prior to today,
there were inclinations toward either side. Today, only resolve and
clarity exist.

Let me phrase a quote:


“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” – Epicurus

And so, to be clear; I am an Atheist. I have tried rationalizing the
existence of religion and always come up empty. It may have been
easier, nice to have been able to be religious.

Then again, it may be easier, nice to not be. This is my choice, not
yours. I can obey the Golden Rule easily enough. Please try following
it too.

Thanks.

[ALAbiguy]

Welcome to the club. I questioned religion all my life that I can remember. Even as a child in Sunday school I couldn't help but think the things I was hearing didn't really sound much different than the fairy tales that I knew weren't true. As I got older the doubts only grew stronger. I never saw or heard any convincing proof that any religion was true or that any god or gods existed. Epicurus' argument from evil, for me too, was the single most convincing argument against the existence a deity.
That being said, I have nothing against those that believe otherwise. I don't think they're ignorant or stupid or intellectually inferior for believing. I just want to live and let live. As long as government remains neutral on religion there should be few problems.

[pepperjack]

In response to the so-called logic of Epicurus:
" For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways , saith the Lord."
" For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."
Isaiah 55: 8-9

Also, there is ample evidence of a deity and His intervention in human affairs to the truly open-minded and seeking.
" And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart."
Jeremiah 29:13
Also, the entire Bible is abundant with ' clarity ' about human nature and the ' origin of evil. '
Just my civil. honest opinion. Have a good day.

[eddy10]

I have thought about both sides of the question for years. The result made me take the agnostic route.

[tenni]

The belief that a god concerns itself with evil may be a fallacy. Religion is a human made construct. Spirituality may not be.

[Gearbox]

IMO Epicurus just brings up more questions than he asks. He supposes that we are aware of 'evil', the power of Humans, the limit to freedom, and even what we can call a God. That (IMO) is where religion falls and where atheists follow.
There IS no logical argument for or against the existence of a deity, as the latter system encompasses the former and subservience to imposed limitations and manipulations can't be ruled out:- you may have been a slug 5 mins ago as far as you know.:tongue: Nothing stops that being a possibility, whether we scream "That's not in the rules!" or not. We just don't know the rules/mind of a deity, if there are any, as Pepperjack points out.

It's FUN to ponder! As we are still in the Dark Ages (IMO), it's so very VERY exciting to ponder.:bigrin:

[void()]

In response to the so-called logic of Epicurus:
" For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways , saith the Lord."
" For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."
Isaiah 55: 8-9

Also, there is ample evidence of a deity and His intervention in human affairs to the truly open-minded and seeking.
" And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart."
Jeremiah 29:13
Also, the entire Bible is abundant with ' clarity ' about human nature and the ' origin of evil. '
Just my civil. honest opinion. Have a good day.

The Christian Bible also portrays the Christian God as commanding geonocide, in serveral cases.
Incest, killing of your own offspring are also some of the mind of the Christian God as written
in the Bible.

I will not say, I am free of making mistakes, or am perfect. That noted if the Christian God is
portrayed as such by his own worshipers, I have difficulty in seeing that same deity as having
"higher" moral wise, ways and mind than any human being who tries to honor life.

The origin of evil according to the Christian dogma is God himself. He created Lucifer/Satan, and
if as the Bible says, God is omniscious, He knew Lucifer would rebel and be evil. So, God made evil.
Then continued to blame all the sons and daughters of Adam, another of his creations which He said
He would not count the sins of a father against a son, for the evil He created.



Genesis 3:1-6

Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, “Yea, hath God said, ‘Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?” 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden,
3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, ‘Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it,lest ye die.’”
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, “Ye shall not surely die;
5 for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof and ate, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he ate.



God made the serpent, put evil in the presence of mankind. So, God is the originator of evil
in accord with Genesis in the 21st Century KJV Bible [ http://www.biblegateway.com/ ]

I have one or two Bibles. In moving I've misplaced them. Bible Gateway seems reputable
enough, or [ http://biblehub.com/ ] Bible Hub. Both provide various translations and versions
of what is alleged God's word, which seems odd that it has so many differing versions.


Ezekiel 18:20

The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear
the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the
wicked shall be upon him.


And so the idea of Original sin, or the sin of the father of all mankind, Adam does not apply
to any of mankind save Adam. Yet God punishes all mankind for the sin of Adam?

This along with the contradiction that God created evil, then blames Adam for it, really
lends to impossibility and inplausibility. God knew Adam would test him. What father does
not know their child will test them? And in offering choice, yet punishing for not making
the choice you desire, is contradictory and wrong on any level.

He says we are given free will and choice, yet we can either choose his way or perish
in Hell, by his doing. It is akin to the IRS telling you that you're free to not pay taxes, but if
don't they'll call the mod squad on you at any time, you'll go to jail. There is no choice, really.
If you consider God as omniscious, no choice exists anyway, He has already known and seen
your choice. Free will then according to Christianity is a null argument, as is the argument of
being here to choose as a test.

I could continue listing contradictions, implausibilities. I could also list a few links which
do that.

Bible Inconsistencies: Bible Contradictions?

[ http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html ]

A List Of Biblical Contradictions

[ http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html ]

New Testament Contradictions

[ http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/paul_carlson/nt_contradictions.html ]

You could read over them, perhaps answer them for yourself. I have tried and not
been sucessful. You may be successful. You've lived longer ergo would have more
experience, ergo have a better chance at success, if indeed you can accomplish it.

I did seek. I have sought all my life up to this point. Two hands working can accomplish
more than two hands bowed in subserveant prayers that go unanswered. If you tell me
prayers are answered, please explain why we still have strife in the world?

Are no Christians unselfishisly praying for global peace? Are none praying for an end to
diseases, afflictions, hunger? As we still have plenty of these going around, it seems
none are praying for their end. Jesus says if you ask in his name and believe, it will
be, no if ands or buts, it'll happen right then and there. Guess nobody thinks to ask.

Or maybe, Jesus / God doesn't answer prayers. Those are two options, it's a "choice" as well.
And that is why I have concluded in seeking. It comes down to either Christians do not help
their fellow man by ending turmoil simply by asking, or God doesn't answer prayer. Either
case lends itself to a bleakness and devoid which causes far too much contradiction to
consider. It seems a "game" in which is the same we face in the realization of a global elitist
cabal ruling, and that is another no win, or even get by situation as well.

Go play your game, have fun. I'll go make my own, thanks. :) And this is not all about
Christianity, iIm not merely targeting one isolated deity. I do not believe in the Islamic,
Jewish God, any past deities from various other cultures, say Zues or Mercury for
example. Nope, no Marduke or Enki, no Isis, no Neptune ... no gods or godesses. All
the religions are equally in collusion in creating this fouled world, so I'll not choose any,
nor do I suspect any will choose me.

Simply put, if you know the house will win, there's no gambling involved. I'll just go
on and avoid the tables. They got some pretty lights over here, hm, nice looking
gals, guys too. Maybe they offer sample licks. Or, I just may go walk in the desert. :)

[goldenfinger]

Morality from the bible.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=song%20of%20songs%208:8-10&version=NLT

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=deuteronomy%2023:10-12&version=NLT

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ezekiel%2023:1-3&version=NLT

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ezekiel%2023:19-21&version=NLT

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=song%20of%20songs%207:7-8&version=NLT

Yeah, this is where I get my morality from.:yikes2:

[Long Duck Dong]

evil to me, is what I percieve it to be, in the same way that wrong and right is percieved...... but the very nature of evil and good, right and wrong is subjective to what I want to do and what others want to do...... and it has the very same nature as legal laws of the land

what is a deity or god, is a question that I can only sum in in the simple statement of * its a individual aspect of each persons understanding of their own reality * I can not more prove the existance of such an aspect of a god or deity than I can disprove it.....any more than I can prove or disprove the nature of sexuality or in truth, the very existance of sexuality.... all I can prove is that people act and react in a way that fits into the box definitions that we have created... IE man and woman equals heterosexuality, woman / woman and man / man equals lesbian / homosexual and woman / woman man and woman / man / man equals bisexual......... the intersex / gender undefined / gender queer etc blur the lines too much to acknowledge so they either do not exist or have to conform legally to the 2 gender system..... a bit like the belief system of you do or you do not believe..... and then there are those that believe in other forms..... but like the * invisible genders and forms of attraction * there is truth and reality out there that is real for somebody.........and therefore I will not tell anybody what to think or believe... merely ask that we share this world cos at this stage, there is no other world to move to....

[darkeyes]

Man created God, and God's, generally in 'is own image.. a few Goddesses...initially as a way of trying to get to grips with the world around them...which became a power thing to enable a few assert and retain control over the masses.. have sed it b4... and if I'm wrong.. o well.. will either burn in hell or I wont.. rite now am not fussed and serpently not afraid of it since I don't believe any of it wy shud I?

Peeps can believe wot they will and gud luck to them I hope and trust they will all be very happy...... just wish I saw a lickle more tolerance, compassion, understanding and acceptance from among the faithful of all religions and none... and they generally have the fucking cheek to tell me I'm dogmatic:eek2:...

[ghost_of_bluebiyou]

Clearly Void,
My friend of old.
to answer your question... there are supreme arguments.
1. If you were the creator and thus (you may have to attend years of logic and philosophy classes to understand) for there to be TRUE free will among the creatures of your creation, no other course is possible.

God must allow free will evil, if there is free will love possible.

Please (I beg you please) do the math.

God is love, therefore... the opposite MUST exist... apathy. And be allowed to have equal power.

Love is greater. I'm convinced and am willing to die for it. (I'm gonna die anyway, might as well die for something with/worth meaning)

I believe in God. Not the articled deity (scriptures) that many use flawed language, false prophets, to try to sway to the dark side.

Although it is ridiculous to believe in the zombie Jesus... I willingly do... that stuff is mostly right... the best I've seen in the most free society to date.

Even in the faith of my beloved Catholic church... there is flaw... sometimes in the texts... sometimes in the sermons... sometimes in the historical accounts... and certainly in the rare priestly occurrences of child abuse.

OR

2. DO THE MATH
We have the BIG BANG then (assuming you are familiar with the immediate aftermath of the big bang model):
2a. the likelihood of the existence of carbon... yes the element carbon... in the universe. Carbon can only form under extreme and rare circumstances... supernova...
2b. the likelihood of the combination of hydrogen and oxygen to form water... in the universe. Oxygen would much rather combine with other elements.

(This argument implies you understand the absolute necessity of the abundance of carbon and water for life to evolve)

OR

3. DO THE LOGIC TREE
3a There is no God. Therefore nothing we do matters. There is no meaning to life.
3b1. There is a God. He is a mean motherfucker or doesn't give a shit and is out to 'reap' us all to our detriment and his benefit. Thus there is no meaning to life (We're gonna get it no matter what we do or believe in).
3b2. There is a God. He doesn't give a shit... he's neutral to us... the meaning of existence is not involving us. We are an incidental, thus nothing. Thus there is no meaning to our life.
3b3. There is a God. He loves us (and perhaps others unknown to us) and his best wish is to avail us to free will (a very tough design in a creation environment), that we may love each other and may ascend (after death) to a place of free will love... or remain in a completely selfish hell.

The only possible meaning of life is 3b3. Else, nothing else matters.




Summary

Now we are limited human beings. In human psychology, if you can exist with zero meaning to life... read Voltaire's response. At the very least.

As a scientist who has considered down to the infinite dimensional universe model (based on quantum theory), not just the 10 or 23 dimensions suggested by Einstein.

The God model fits the best. In ways that would take too long for me to explain.

On a human level,
My favorite homily is:
In hell there are all dead people at a banquet table. They have 5 foot forks. In front of them is a banquet of the most beautiful food but they cannot serve themselves... so out of frustration they stab at the people across the table (who stab back).

In heaven there are dead people at a banquet table. They have 5 foot forks. In front of them is a banquet of the most beautiful food but they cannot serve themselves... so they feed each other across the table, and rejoice in love.

It is hard to be positive and maintain a faithful attitude when afflicted by dire/deadly disease.

But please remember... if God is a real entity using real physical things to happen for his cause, so must therefore be a Satan to use equal and opposite things to sway you against love.

Unless there is no God... then why do you care?... why not kill yourself now comfortably when the enjoyment is not so hot?

I cannot forcibly change your mind.

I beg you to hold on to this existence with whatever hope and love you can muster. I truly believe we came here with a purpose and reason. Please hold on as long as you can.
I believe that we (humans) are not all/everything but we must aspire as high as we (here's the REAL tough point) can.

I believe atheists are cowards... I used to be one... I understand and do not condemn.

Good luck and best wishes,
Blue

[DuckiesDarling]

Void, I respect the hell out of you. That won't change. I believe Religion is man made and faith is what you make of it, but to each their own. As long as we have a path to follow even if it's one we laid out.. we are never lost.

[pepperjack]

Very good and logical argument, Void! I'm aware of many of the same inconsistencies you mention, questions you have; remember, I said "wrestling with God." But I have my reasons for believing what I do. Call it conviction based on experiences.

[void()]

Clearly Void,
My friend of old.
But please remember... if God is a real entity using real physical things to happen for his cause, so must therefore be a Satan to use equal and opposite things to sway you against love.

Unless there is no God... then why do you care?... why not kill yourself now comfortably when the enjoyment is not so hot?

I cannot forcibly change your mind.

I beg you to hold on to this existence with whatever hope and love you can muster. I truly believe we came here with a purpose and reason. Please hold on as long as you can.
I believe that we (humans) are not all/everything but we must aspire as high as we (here's the REAL tough point) can.

I believe atheists are cowards... I used to be one... I understand and do not condemn.

Good luck and best wishes,
Blue

I do know you aren't condeming. I am not attacking either. I am merely expressing my perception, opinion. Everyone is free to take or leave as they desire, not based on my authority but simply because they are free in life. In my experience, I see atheists as being more courageous.

The reasoning why I see that way is because an atheist creates their way, and does not rely upon some external ineffiable source. And even would there be such a source, would it not:

1. Desire its creation to realize its own creative responsiblity in making its own happiness?
2. Appreciate that its creation honors it by accepting that responsibility?

Relax off the suicide watch, please. I understand the perception that without belief in a deity equates to one percieving a life without meaning. I find meaning in life, though, or create it for myself. :) So, not really fallen into some vast chasm of despair. In fact for me it was quite the opposite effect, trying to rationalize and find validity of deities abolished meaning in life for me. And I could not simply accept "blind faith".

Frustrated, dejected and wandering in some foggy depression I found another me. This other me was happy. He said that a long time ago he realized others can not make him happy, that was his choice. As nobody could offer him good answers to valid questions, he chose to make up answers for himself while maintaining a tried axiom as a guideline, the golden rule.

In that, I faced off against the happy me and learned. I have also been facing off against the angry me and learning. The reason I am choosing to bounce this stuff off myself is pretty reasonable too. Our beliefs are personal ideas. Who better knows oneself than oneself? Besides that it seems introversion, a few other mental and physical issues obstruct having many friends in the flesh to talk with and get feedback.

I can do it here from time to time, yet the site is not something dedicated to my whim. Also, friends go on and get occupied with living too. I understand that, honestly. I have no problem with it. I just go bounce stuff off myself, then. I think most people if honest would admit to doing this to an extent. :)

I come forward now, with this, because I felt it a major reckoning point in life. I finally decided to take action, to face up to myself, find out what my happiness required. Then, go and act to become happy. Hopefully, friends here are comfortable in me being happy, finally. :) If not, well then that's their issue, not mine. And if they do have issue with it, then, do I really need to consider them friends? Don't friends let one another live, learn, grow? Is that not part of loving one another?

This is my courage, my meaning, my faith, grasping that love, living and growing. It has been there all my life, yet I stayed blind until I got rid of the discontent brought on by trying to reconcile religion, realized that I had to choose to grasp that love, faith, meaning. And no this isn't a matter of self agrandizement. It's a finding of one's own worth, value and their deserving love. It's finally finding a kernel of peace on a shore littered with sunflower kernels of peace. :)

I can not forcibly alter your mind either. I do not have any desire to do it. I felt compelled to reply with my perception, opinion because friends deserve understanding. Hopefully in expressing my views, understanding can be found. Okay, well it seems I'm at that point where the rest relies upon those outside of myself. My words are written, hope remains. Have a good one. :)

[void()]

Very good and logical argument, Void! I'm aware of many of the same inconsistencies you mention, questions you have; remember, I said "wrestling with God." But I have my reasons for believing what I do. Call it conviction based on experiences.

Well, I'm glad you have your beliefs and I am truly and sincerely happy for you having them. :)
You make a good point, your beliefs were created from your experience/s. The same applies with
my belief/s or seeming lack of belief/s. *chuckle* No set of experiences is ever truly the same,
the possiblity of that could likely be calculated by some math genius. I'm not a math genius so
won't try. Suffice it say the possiblity is slim.

So, this leaves us to agree to disagree based off our individual experiences. Okay, no big deal,
you and as far as I'm aware are still both human beings. Granted not all of our experiences will
be the exact same, we as humans do have some basic and standard experiences we share.

How's the weather your way? Hot as blazes here, no pun intended. Been fishing lately?
I see some perch and bass in our section of the creek in the bottom. Don't fish for them.
Just nice to see them on my walks. :) And yeah, for me that's enough.

We can hoot and holler on those shared experiences til the cows come back in. And those
experiences can in themselves be enough too. :) Life is not one thing, but a multitude of
a plethora of things.

Been rough up here keeping the grass under control too. It rained all last
week, or was broiling hot. The heat and direct sunlight do not mix well with folks having
only "get 'er done" speed, and high blood pressure. We managed, did bits in fifteen to thirty
minute spats, a few spats each day and keeping up only the bare needed.

Seen any good television shows, or movies lately? We've been really dispointed with both
here. Been looking at house porn a lot, either the DYI shows, or some blueprint magazines.
Germinating an idea for a landscaping project, hoping it's not too much of a project to get
rejected.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

This is a subject I usually refrain from. Try living with Two religions at once. My Mother's with the Native upbringing, and the Christianity as well. I believe in Both, but adhere mainly to the Native belief of Love and respect all things natural and true. Cause harm not if you can help it. Love and respect Mother Nature and all in her, and live life Peaceful and happy. :} Trust in the Great Spirit in all things good and right. Protect everything smaller than You are. :}
Works for me.
Cat

[Annika L]

My experience is that religious conviction (pro, con, and/or any specifics) is about as immutable as sexuality. So void, I congratulate you on your bravery in reaching your next stable-point, and hope that it carries you where you need to go at this time. Love for all.

[elian]

I believe that the divine is a powerful force behind the gift of bestowal.

Religion is sort of like staring at the same thing through a kaleidescope.. Buddhists say that this world is the manifestation of the divine, expressing itself in many forms.

Because of my upbringing - having to question my own sexuality I was given the gift of an open mind. I made it my business to force myself to celebrate diversity as a way of learning to accept who I am. I won't tell you that a Baptist is "better" than a Mennonite, or that a Christian is better than a Jew or Muslim. We are who we are - if we have the right intentions and frame of mind we are connected to the divine.

People get all excited about "the one true way" - thinking they are going to win the favoritism of God - that is the wrong way of thinking. We are ALREADY connected.

Even if you believe only in the soil and the natural world you are still connected .. it isn't you alone that makes the crops grow..

People constantly scream at us from all sides - you MUST do this, you MUST do that - it was a revelation to me that my most profound experience came from silence. There was no noise, no screaming, no guilt.. Feeling pain, but also intention, love and gratitude for the divine and receiving love and healing in return.

That is why I love the divine, and by that I mean a whole lot more than some angry old man with a beard in the sky. We are all a part of this creation, and it is a part of us. it isn't so much the words on our lips, but rather the intention in our hearts that matters.

[pepperjack]

Interesting u should ask since I've been a movie addict since a very young boy; I recently enjoyed a movie titled ' Burning Bright; ' interesting premise & good entertainment on a Fri. nite, winding down from a work-week with beer & pizza.
And....I've also become somewhat addicted to XHamster porn videos during free time.
For awhile today, thought I might be getting caught up in our infamous Kansas tornadic activity with a sudden dramatic change in weather conditions while on the road between communities.
And the entire time, I was listening to a controversial talk-radio program lamenting about the state of our nation.
So I was pretty much struggling to survive the trip & also contemplating my future & God.
We're not so different, U & I.;)

[pepperjack]

Very well expressed & I believe in the notion that " the intention in our hearts " is what prayer actually is! Replying to Elian.

[goldenfinger]

Interesting guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AfFcAmx-Ro

[void()]

Interesting u should ask since I've been a movie addict since a very young boy; I recently enjoyed a movie titled ' Burning Bright; ' interesting premise & good entertainment on a Fri. nite, winding down from a work-week with beer & pizza.
And....I've also become somewhat addicted to XHamster porn videos during free time.
For awhile today, thought I might be getting caught up in our infamous Kansas tornadic activity with a sudden dramatic change in weather conditions while on the road between communities.
And the entire time, I was listening to a controversial talk-radio program lamenting about the state of our nation.
So I was pretty much struggling to survive the trip & also contemplating my future & God.
We're not so different, U & I.;)

No, not as different as may first seem. :) I have recently taken to actually enjoying a little
porn, more so than I once did. I would blame the testosterone treatments, however since
those are to merely set me to "normal" levels, no need to blame exactly. Duh, I'm enjoying
a means to expunge a bit of biologically sexual tension, what's "normal" for most knuckle
dragging guys. *mock grunt* ;) *chuckle*

Also been looking at what mainstream media calls "conspiracy media" as in Alex
Jones. Whilst I may not always concur w/ all he posits, he does seem keen to
bring a bit of credible info to light, if for nothing else than spurring one to go
look stuff up.

Wife and I also glimpsed a house that resides just "out of reach". It would require
a mortage for around $45k, costing roughy $35, the extra 10 for us to make repairs
and bring it the home to code. It has cistern water, which makes financing difficult.
It was however a H.U.D propetry, up for sale by them, so financing may not be
such a bad issue. Still the ~$35k home may as well be priced at ~$35M/Billon for us.
Nice property too, around 3.5 acres out in the country.

As to working, honestly not capable here of the "professional" out from home
work. My back can go into spasms pretty bad. Guess in the doing when younger,
I wrenched the syatic nerve but good. It is the root cause of the spasms. And
the spasms also take my limbs at times. That would present liabilty in doing
critical work w/ hands, or extensive work for durations.

Then, i consider the recent bump to p.t.s.d being diagnosed. Employers see that
as a liability as well. Don't blame them, as I would too. And no not bringing this up
as a whine fest, just stating how it is.

Then, I think of Nick who has no arms, legs. He suggests being grateful for what one does
have. I try to be, try to remain inspired as I mow or do other odd work around the home.
Around the home, I can take breaks when needed, do things to suit me, do as best able.
I'm thankful of being able to piddle at home, thankful for a loving wife. :) Will keep on
keeping on even if it is only just that.

Been stepping back a bit more, away from media, society in general. It helps to
keep a clear outlook. Lots of stuff out there forecasting "gloom and doom", and yeah
sometimes it does get to me. But I step away and can see brighter futures. :) If we
don't consent to the "evil" then it really does lose its power.

[void()]

Very well expressed & I believe in the notion that " the intention in our hearts " is what prayer actually is! Replying to Elian.

S-m-a-r-t that guy o' mine. :) Glad he can somewhat translate for me. *chuckles*

[void()]

I believe that the divine is a powerful force behind the gift of bestowal.

Religion is sort of like staring at the same thing through a kaleidescope.. Buddhists say that this world is the manifestation of the divine, expressing itself in many forms.

Because of my upbringing - having to question my own sexuality I was given the gift of an open mind. I made it my business to force myself to celebrate diversity as a way of learning to accept who I am. I won't tell you that a Baptist is "better" than a Mennonite, or that a Christian is better than a Jew or Muslim. We are who we are - if we have the right intentions and frame of mind we are connected to the divine.

People get all excited about "the one true way" - thinking they are going to win the favoritism of God - that is the wrong way of thinking. We are ALREADY connected.

Even if you believe only in the soil and the natural world you are still connected .. it isn't you alone that makes the crops grow..

People constantly scream at us from all sides - you MUST do this, you MUST do that - it was a revelation to me that my most profound experience came from silence. There was no noise, no screaming, no guilt.. Feeling pain, but also intention, love and gratitude for the divine and receiving love and healing in return.

That is why I love the divine, and by that I mean a whole lot more than some angry old man with a beard in the sky. We are all a part of this creation, and it is a part of us. it isn't so much the words on our lips, but rather the intention in our hearts that matters.

Well, honey ... I can see all that you see. I can appreciate that it is there. I can be cast stupified in awe of it. I do not need to have some divine or grand reason for any of it existing. It is enough that it simply is.

Choosing to not need a reason for it, is not the same as choosing ignorance or apathy. It is a choice
of living and let live, a choice to be contented that life is. And in that choice lies one to be "good" without need of the "carrot" we often mention in the carrot and stick discussions. Why do I need a reward for simply doing what is right, just, what I ought to do?

Yeah, it may be nice to get a small token of gratitude. Most times, not even concerned to get that.
Love and life themselves are the rewards. :) The journey is the destination.

Ultimately, I think we may be on the same sentence, saying what each other are saying. We just
say it differently, and some without need of the "prodding" of something considered divine. Some
can see that the divine is the here and now. All is all there is and that's all. The greatest occult
secret being there are no secrets.

Realizing that, one can see no point to tribal wars based on tribal religions. Why bother when
it destroys so many and so much? Maybe it's not exactly proper an atheist be spiritual. Oh
well, I am what I am. But I do not exactly see atheism as being a religion, more a lack of religion.

Without religion, I'm free to love, be loved, live and let live. Don't need to be concerned with
religon's rules. As said by Der Antword a bit, "don't need no system, fuck the system. Got our
own system." I'm perhaps not as militant as that, but the same sentiement could apply.

[bihotinthekitchen]

Can we all not just suck cock and lick pussy and be happy to do it just because

[elian]

I think either Aphrodite or Eros have you covered .. or perhaps David Bowie :)

[elian]

Void honey, as I have said many times before - people seem to prefer the story with the tiger in it better than the one without the tiger. Margaret Atwood makes a very compelling case for agnostics but where is the adventure in that? (http://video.pbs.org/video/1383772819)

Of course you do the right thing because it is the right thing to do. It isn't so much carrots with me either as a matter of being loved and wanting to return that love.

A long time ago, when I doubted myself terribly the divine gave me love and encouragement.

Is it a trick of the mind, a hallucination doing anything to make me want to survive? I do not know - but I've never forgotten that love, and the ultimate commandment I received from it over and over again - "follow your heart".

At times it makes me naive, I have been accused of being Peter Pan on more than one occasion but I have been called names all of my life. It really doesn't matter to me because as long as I have love in my heart and love for others I will die happy.

Make no mistake - I have felt anger, rage, envy, guilt, jealousy, frustration, spite, lust, depression - and I have also learned by the sudden passing away of people I cared about very much that life is too short to live motivated primarily by any of those things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYDbKwEnsSA

[elian]

..and for the record part of giving love and one of my greatest fantasies involves the sense of touch and physical pleasure, it's just that boys who are -too- nice seem to end up living short lives..in order for me to have no inhibitions about it - would have to be folks that I love and trust very much to be healthy, generally happy folks.

[void()]

Can we all not just suck cock and lick pussy and be happy to do it just because

Excellent point you have there. :) No need to greatly over think everything.
Granted, yes I did start it. *sighs* Guess somebody ought to finish it. ;)

[void()]

..and for the record part of giving love and one of my greatest fantasies involves the sense of touch and physical pleasure, it's just that boys who are -too- nice seem to end up living short lives..in order for me to have no inhibitions about it - would have to be folks that I love and trust very much to be healthy, generally happy folks.

*holds up a feather duster which has silk plumes, brushes it against the rough leather chaps* Uh huh, so if we simplified it all, you want touched? I recall someone fussing a bit one night because of a touch. Hehe. He was asleep but good. Somebody touched him and he got all wound up. That becomes contagious here, somebody might end up impregnated or quite sticky in the least. ;)

[itsnormy]

from my life experience, the bible is like a porn movie without the pictures....I support anything you want to believe in, WHEN it makes you a better person, but I for one, have met more loving and caring people among the ranks of the agnostics and atheists than among the ranks of people claiming to be religious.

[12voltman59]

Like probably pretty much every human being that has ever lived--I too have struggled to try to figure out "what is what" when it comes to questions like "What is God?" "Is There God?" "Is there more than this?" and what have you....

I have come to believe that there is definitely "something more" than just our biological lives that play out here on this place we call Planet Earth. I really do not accept that all we are is a mass of atoms, cells and such that have clumped together and all that we experience is merely a result of the electrochemical processes that take place in our brains.

I have experienced death up close quite often in recent months due to the deaths of my father, other close loved ones and even one of my beloved pets.

I think---that it is pretty damn clear that our bodies are really nothing more "than a shell" that houses something more than just having sustained our physical, biological lives---as you experience death of both a person and a loved animal----you do get a very real sense that something has "left" and that there is more to death than simply the cessation of biologic life---"there is a there, there" to twist a phrase---that leaves the body at the time of death--something I think is eternal, something "beyond"--something more.

I also do think--I always have--that our religions have gotten "god" very wrong--that "god" does exist---but "god" is far more than what we are taught by our manmade and man's self serving organized, formal religions.

To me--I think that man has made "god" in his image and not the other way around---because we as human beings--as great as our minds are---simply cannot comprehend the true nature of what god is.

God is surely not some supreme being sitting up there on his throne in heaven---judging us, smiting us or rewarding us--those are all human sorts of things. Such a being has one major big assed EGO and god is too big to have something so puny, limiting and insignificant as an ego. That is a very human thing and "god" is surely not some sort of super powered human being!!

My latest, refined view of what is "the nature of god"----is that during the course of the existence of the universe----the universe itself came to have a consciousness and that is what we perceive as "being god."

Physics now clearly shows us----that the very essence of what makes up our physical bodies only came to be thanks to the explosions of great stars eons ago--that we literally are "the stuff of stars."

Theoretical physicists are now postulating all sorts of wild things---that universes give "birth" to other universes, that at each moment in time----there are alternate universes in which every possible permutation of outcome plays out---its all pretty heady and mind twisting stuff.

I think that a grand consciousness or sentience does exist that comes from all that exists in "the universe" such as atomic and sub-atomic particles, the elements and minerals that sprang from "the big bang" and from supernovas, the theoretical "dark matter" and who knows what else that has developed over time and "pervades" all existence---but this grand consciousness/sentience doesn't have human emotions, agendas, plans or whatever--it simply is--and we are not separate from that-----we are part of it and its a part of us.

I do say that I do reject the notion that all we are, as human beings are a bunch of walking bags that are a collection of atoms, cells, organs, etc that simply happens and that our lives have no real meaning other than that we spent a nanonsecond on this world.

That is not to say that our lives do not have importance or lack meaning---I think that our lives here on this place as human beings does have an important role to play---one that we have not yet figured out---but we do learn its importance either when we "pass on" and even perhaps one day soon---we will become "enlightened" and aware of why we come to live this life.

That to me---makes no damn sense at all!! So yes---I do believe in "god" in a an overarching sense---just not in the way that "man's" organized religions tell us what God is supposed to be----I think they are way off base, don't have a clue and haven't scratched the surface of what the true and actual nature of "god" is.

I do also reject most of what religions teach us about the nature of the world and "god."

While there is some good that has and does flow from religion----I think a strong case can be made that religion is often the source of much of the suffering of mankind as well. That is why I largely have come to reject most of what religion is about.

Perhaps I have it all wrong myself, but I am merely sharing my view of this topic here----you can accept some or all of what I say---or not--and feel I am either on to something or that I am both crazy and full of shit---but at least I am not telling you that some great entity has shown me this and that if you don't believe me----you are both a blasphemer and are doomed to eternal life in some sort of hell and only by believing what I have said here can you expect to get in the good graces of that grand sentient "being" and get to be one of his little sycophants that worships "him" for all eternity because he is one needy being that demands that we bow down before him or else!!

[elian]

Hey! Who are these leather chaps? Can you introduce me? ;)


*holds up a feather duster which has silk plumes, brushes it against the rough leather chaps*

[pepperjack]

Very amusing! Just so happens " controversial talk- radio" I was listening to during this time was Alex Jones program! Interesting, informative, entertaining ( which it's meant to be ) but nevertheless, one must remain discerning, skeptical.The impact of deception in our current world is increasingly more powerful as prophesied!

[elian]

The thing with talk show radio hosts is that one of their most fundamental desires is to sell advertising and earn a living. When a person listens to the broadcast they should always bear that in mind. I once heard Rush Limbaugh rant and rave for three hours about how there was going to be mass catastrophe on the highways because the President suggested people overinflate their tires to save a few miles per gallon of gasoline. Boy, I wish I could get paid big money to whine for three hours on the radio - must be great - except of course maybe not - given that he was addicted to oxycotin.

[elian]

"If I could speak all the languages of earth and of angels, but didn’t love others, I would only be a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I understood all of God’s secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains, but didn’t love others, I would be nothing. If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it; but if I didn’t love others, I would have gained nothing.

Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance."

http://www.values.com/inspirational-stories-tv-spo... (http://www.values.com/inspirational-stories-tv-spots/69-Hope)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qlh2gJ3r2bA

"When there is great love there are always miracles." - Willa Cather

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Zbn7Khv8zM

[pepperjack]

Aware of "the love chapter" in Corinthians.

[biblkman]

I sometimes get a little envious of people who believe in god and have faith in there god, every so often I try...I realy do, I go to church listen intently hoping for some sort of spark...and nothing, I do this at least around ever few years.

I read the bible and hope to find some deep profound meaning in its pages....and nothing.

My reasoning won't alowe me to feel anything but frustration.

I didn't choose to be an atheist.

I tried to get into religion, it I realy did, but its not what's in my mind or heart.

Like my bisexuality I keep, I keep my atheism to myself.

Just got tired of everyones opinions and ridicule.

So I seek other atheists like myself, just as I have found this site.

Neither my atheism or my bisexuality makes me less immoral.

My sexuality and disbelief of any sort of god are just small parts of the whole that is me.

[Gearbox]

I sometimes get a little envious of people who believe in god and have faith in there god, every so often I try...I realy do, I go to church listen intently hoping for some sort of spark...and nothing, I do this at least around ever few years.

I read the bible and hope to find some deep profound meaning in its pages....and nothing.

My reasoning won't alowe me to feel anything but frustration.

I didn't choose to be an atheist.

I tried to get into religion, it I realy did, but its not what's in my mind or heart.

Like my bisexuality I keep, I keep my atheism to myself.

Just got tired of everyones opinions and ridicule.

So I seek other atheists like myself, just as I have found this site.

Neither my atheism or my bisexuality makes me less immoral.

My sexuality and disbelief of any sort of god are just small parts of the whole that is me.
I think you'll find that what makes the religious believe that they have found something profound, is that they believe they know what they are. That's what they are told in scriptures, and like any kind of revelation of self, it's very VERY strong. It makes no difference whether that revelation is 'good' or 'bad', whether you are theist or atheist, whether you chose a Bible or a science book, it's still very powerful and is still a belief.
You may not resonate with those inside a church, but as you point out - you seek others that you DO resonate with. It's just a different congregation.

You have nothing to envy!:)

[elian]

Since our state is now apparently one that is in the forefront of challenging a state-wide DOMA law I have been spending LOTS of time posting comments on the local news website regarding same sex marriage.

I don't know that I want to post another religious response on here as I have probably preached enough; better to just remember what the wiccans say, "In that ye harm none, do what ye will." - Makes sense to me.

It would be fun to share with all of you exactly what I feel because I do it in the spirit of love, but this really isn't the best forum to express it; besides - I think I've already explained. I don't view diversity as a weakness, it is actually something very beautiful.

[void()]

Very amusing! Just so happens " controversial talk- radio" I was listening to during this time was Alex Jones program! Interesting, informative, entertaining ( which it's meant to be ) but nevertheless, one must remain discerning, skeptical.The impact of deception in our current world is increasingly more powerful as prophesied!

I tend to look at Alex Jones a bit online. Agreed on being skeptical. You can find pictures of Bill Gates with twenty titties online if you set out to do so. :) *chuckle*

Wife admonishes and chides me but good on a few zingers I stumble over. She too likes seeing proof. Most often though she tells me "jub jub". That's our joke about much of it being a lot of hot air without great relevence to us.