birth or choice

[andyinboxers]

Fter reading SEVERAL posts here about childhood experimentation do you think you're bi by choice or birth?a

[Basin_Bouy]

I believe it is by Birth

[Country Guy]

I am sure that I was born this way.

[Coastocoast]

I differ a lot from others here that I have read and in my case it was definitely not something I was born with. I had never thought about men sexually until I was 30ish and a guy made a move on me once by my grabbing my crotch while I was driving him home when he got too drunk to drive. I said no, was pushing his hand away and until I got the vehicle stopped I had every intention of abruptly ending it. I was horny, had been at a BBQ and had struck out with a woman there that I was interested in. At the end of those 30 seconds or so it took me to stop the car I made a split second decision. His hand had gotten a hold of me more than once and it felt OK. I said what the hell, leaned the seat back and let him blow me. When it was over it weirded me out and it never happened again until after I was married and divorced many years later. At that point I was in a situation with sole custody of two young kids and most women looked at me with the young kids and ran. I made a decision it might be better to just find a FWB situation with a woman but after looking it was not happening. Eventually I started looking at a male friend in a similar situation that I worked out with regularly as a potential FWB. It evolved and it took me time to change my mental openness and when the opportunity eventually came about I took it. One day he made a joke while we were alone in the gym locker room saying it had been so long since he had gotten any he would probably blow a guy to get one. He laughed it off but I looked at him without laughing and said would you? He did not give me a response or say anything else until the ride home when I asked him again if he would. He simply said yes and I said so would I. When we got home instead of eating something as we normally did we traded head. The situation lasted for a year until he moved out of state. He is now happily married and not interested in men at all. In my case it started as situationally bisexual but at this point I am bisexual. Everyone is a little different. Although the details may be interesting to hear, things evolve as they do so try not to get too hung up in the how, what and why.

[tenni]

The entire nurture nature argument on many questions usually resolves / involves both side of the argument. I’m inclined to think that we are not born bisexual but that it is natural for us to become bisexual. A person is not born sexual (in an adult sense) but it develops and matures. The child begins to express sexual expressions and expressions of affection( two four year old boys walking hand in hand will not be repeated by 12 year old boys unless social conditioning permits it) The four year old boys are not being sexual in an adult sense. Even body exploration may not be seen as sex by children...but play and it feels good to do this. Social learning plays a role as to what is “proper” sexually but that will not stop the sexual development even if some become bisexual as a child while others are in the 50’s when they become bisexual with no previous interest in same sex play. With fluidity of bisexuality we have more and more people who thought that it was natural for them to be gay discovering that no they also are sexually interested in women.


So, after much debate like other nature /nuture issues will probably be found to be both.


The strongest argument /concern about nature for sexuality is that if it is genetic then it may be cured by contemporary scientific advancements one day. Poof no more bisexuals.... let alone no more gay or lesbians.

[Annika L]

The strongest argument about nature for sexuality is that if it is genetic then it may be cured. Poof no more bisexuals.... let alone no more gay or lesbians.

That is not really an argument...more of a fact. It constitutes evidence neither toward nature nor toward nurture...just a fact about the consequences of it being nature. Of course, if it's 100% nurture, it can also be "cured"...just behaviorally, rather than through eugenics (which most people find generically abhorrent anyway).

As to the rest of your post, what you say has merit, but is maybe a kind of semantic quibble. When we say trait X is genetic, we mean *either* that you are born with it, or you are born predisposed toward it. Sure a birth mark or heart defect can be a genetic trait...so you can be born with them. But being tall or big-boned are also genetic traits...but you aren't born tall any more than you are born bisexual. And yes, if malnourished throughout your lifetime, you probably won't get tall. But still you were genetically predisposed toward being tall.

Similarly, I certainly agree that we aren't born bisexual...but we can be born with a predisposition toward bisexuality as you say. If we never see another member of the other sex and have no clue about their existence, I doubt we'll crave them sexually (and I'm sure there plenty of less extreme ways in which our predisposed bisexuality will not develop, as well). But I think this kind of predisposition still falls under what we'd call a genetic trait, or a trait we're born with. And regardless...nothing in tenni's argument (or Coast's for that matter) suggests it is a choice.

[tenni]

Ah..here we go Annika ;)

A person is genetically predetermined to have certain physical traits such as eye colouring or even the potential to be big (if feed enough). There may even be a genetically predetermination factor to develop say breast cancer past a certain age rather than environmental factors causing a different kind of cancer.

Sexuality is not quite the same physical traits criteria though. It is a behavioural tendency or an sexual/ or romantic attraction to gender. This is more ethereal compared to eye colour or potential to be a size. Less determinate.

This gets all grey when discussing bisexuals whose attraction ebbs and flows. This becomes less clearly a genetic predeterminate when a person is gay and then becomes bisexual years later. Are all of these sexual attractions just waiting to develop over time? People developing sexual attraction to a gender that they had no attraction before adds to mystery...yes? Unless we see it as a predeterminate that at age 12 to 40 you are to be attracted to the opposite gender and then at 40 you will begin to attracted to same gender. We do not have the scientific facts to make a statement that sexuality may be predetermined due to a gene.

I will agree on the genetic flawed argument. I was just presenting it because it would appear on this thread more likely eventually. So, your point is that bisexuals may be made heterosexuals one way or the other...lol

[elian]

I always had the desire to love. I have always had a strong desire for attention and affection. I have always been attracted to the person, not necessarily what is between their legs.

When I was young gender never seemed like it should be a barrier to love - it was only as I grew older that society made me feel ashamed and caused conflict. It was only my experience of being rejected instead of loved that caused me to hate myself and men in general. It was only by finding a handful of men who loved and supported me unconditionally that I learned to trust again and come to terms with my feelings. Maybe it seems sick but I wanted to share physical pleasure with these men to demonstrate what I was feeling inside.

I think that many different bodies are beautiful.

I believe that sexuality is intertwined with our self-image, something we should celebrate and cherish (with heed that it can also easily be abused).

I also used to view sex as sacred, but any more I am starting to wonder if intertwining abrahamic faith, spirituality and sex causes more trouble than it is worth.

Maybe it is better to simply say that when done the "right" way sharing intimately with a partner is a gift.

I love men the same way that women love men, and there are some women that I love and lust after as well.

I was born to love, in all the ways that adults love each other (but hopefully not the co-dependent ways).

Human beings learn by the use of a neural network. I am who I am, the sum of genetics, experience and environment.

It seems very hard to "change" who you fall in love with - so hard that I don't think I could do it unless I had a nervous breakdown.

Every once in a while I still seek out reassurance that what I feel is okay; that is why it hurts so badly to see groups like the boy scouts reject gay youth and that is why I write so fiercely in support of inclusivity.

Regardless of what you believe, I think we are all struggling to understand ourselves and our place in the world. The greatest gift we can give and receive is to share with others, isolation kills. Of course, like anything else we need to have a balance of introspection and sharing with peers.

[12voltman59]

I think that for me---it is a natural part of me-----but my reason for saying this---has more to do with anything physical and its more a matter of a metaphysical nature--but I won't go into that here.

The thing that does get me---does it really matter whether being gay, lesbian, bisexual or seeking to change genders is a "natural thing" or not----I say that as an adult---in a (relatively) "free" society----we should all be free to engage in sexuality other then purely heterosexual as a matter of choice and for doing so-----we should not lose ANY of our "inalienable and essential liberties"-----we surely should not be imprisoned or even put to death as some argue should be the fate of those who are GLBT and more, whether or not its "natural" or a matter of choice.

I know that in the early days when gays were seeking more acceptance and access to their rights----it was the way to go to argue that being "gay is natural--we are born this way"---because at the time---that was the only way that there was likely to be any easing in the restrictions against homosexual acts and the repression that GLBT people suffered.

But now---I really do wish that someone with a deep knowledge in Constitutional Law and related areas, who identifies with one of the those letters and has general respect----would come to make a public declaration that it should not matter at all whether being one of those things is "natural" or its a matter of personal choice and decision-----as consenting adults----people should be totally free to be such without fear of being hounded by government and that they are not denied ANY of their "essential liberties" because by nature or decision--they are totally not heterosexual or engage in some non-heterosexual acts.

[jamieknyc]

In reality, we could debate this issue until the end of time without getting to a definitive answer. If you can really find a scientific explanation for same-sex attraction, they will give you the Nobel Prize for medicine.

[12voltman59]

On many issues of human behavior where there is the question if its affected by "nature or nurture"---as Jaime said----its something that will probably never be resolved since you can find "experts" on such matters who say that nature plays a more important role and just as many say the opposite--that "nurture" plays the bigger role.

When it comes to human nature---even though the ways of science are applied to the subject---or they try to----I don't think that science can ever truly ever reach any definitive answers since there is just so much variability when it comes to human beings.

[elian]

That's why I think it is a combination of factors - people are sum of their genetic history, their experience, their environment, etc. Human beings love to be able label and classify things but this is messy, and I think it is actually a good thing that we don't come out of the factory like widgets.

Your mileage may vary, but I get a lot of solace from this clip that seems to indicate that it is OKAY to be different and it is OKAY to be yourself. Two things a lot of people struggle with.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKtSVSedii0

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

lol What does it matter as long as we all have fun? sex and pleasure is sex and pleasure..as long as everyone is happy with it and consenting.
Its quite Possible that humans may have the predeposed Gene that makes them Bi. Not All people have it, but those of us who do..yaayy us! lol. :wiggle2:
Cat

[Annika L]

Cat: must it *matter* in order for us to be legitimately intellectually curious about it? What does it matter how many galaxies there are? Or stars in the sky?

Jamie: does the fact that we will never arrive at consensus or even that none of us will solve the problem negate the value of *debating* it?

Many useful facts and applications are derived from intellectual engagement with topics that are deemed "inapplicable" or turn out to be intractable/unsolveable. Personally, I don't find that comments aimed at devaluing or shutting down a civil debate are any better than comments that disrupt it with flaming.

[elian]

Yes, it took me a while to reframe my thinking - I used to think of being bisexual as a curse, and there are still times that I absolutely hate not being able to tell (in my case) more than half the people I love that I love them. However, if there is one thing this world needs right now it is love and we bisexual people have the capacity to love people regardless of what is between their legs.

It sometimes bothers me when that love is unrequited, but people do have free will so I suspect that is just a part of life. You can't FORCE someone to love you, that just wouldn't be right - you can't FORCE someone not to be angry, scared, frustrated - but I also wish it were easier to share our feelings with others in a non-judgemental way. If we could easily see through the timeline of another person's whole life, then we could see what motivates them, truly understand their potential and who they really are.

[innaminka]

Choice?
I would think may of us, if we had our "druthers" would punt for str8 every time.
Then the anguishes that are part of the human condition would be somewhat simpler.

But we're not! We have different anguishes that can get somewhat complicated in a society that still views anyone not rampantly hetero as a little strange. Sure acceptance is coming, but to be accepted, one has to be different from the norm to start with.

AS Cat wrote - so what! We are what we are. I certainly never learned any of my bi/lesbian tendencies: in fact I tried very, very hard to be a Stepford wife (with a sex life!!)
I am who I am because I was born this way.

And despite the aforesaid "anguishes" I've had and am still having one helluva good life.

[darkeyes]

I have never seriously questioned where my wants lead me.. most of us who are not str8 probably r naturally predisposed to being what we are, but our lives and circumstances can affect us such, that that predisposition in many is never acknowledged either knowingly or unknowingly, is never acted upon and is even denied... and even some, gay or bi, will because of the suppression of their natural predisposition will become as opposed to our and their own kind as any str8 bigot.. knowingly or unknowingly, they will be our worst nightmare.. and conversely, where that natural predisposition does not exist it is quite likely that some are now gay or bisexual because of their own history and circumstances... nature for some, nurture for others and and an amalgam fof both for some others is the most likely explanation.. we don't need to knock ourselves out over it... but we are human and these things humans want to know, sometimes for the right reasons and sometimes for much more sinister ones.. often just because we want to know... we are insatiably curious and in her post, Annika has the right of it I think...

We do not consciously choose to be what we are normally.. we are.. whether or not we accept it... that is where choice lies...in acceptance or otherwise of what our genes tell us, and/or our life history has made us...

[Gearbox]

I THINK I was born like this, or had the capacity to evolve into what I am. I just don't have a manual to go check if I'm operating correctly by the manufacturers guidelines or if I suffered a malfunction.:bigrin:

[elian]

When I wrote fiercely in defense of gay boy scouts and about having compassion for a transgender student I saw my life come full circle (yet again) - for a little while who I had become, and why I had to go through what I went through growing up made perfect sense. If I hadn't experienced dissonance in my life I wouldn't have been able to understand the value of compassion and respect for difference rather than fear of it.

I have always been fascinated by the interaction of people, technology and society throughout history. For me, it isn't really about sex at all, it's about the value of people in society. I do not understand why there is much hatred of difference, other than perhaps fear, mistrust, jealousy..wow.

..but this problem goes beyond any LGBT label. I tell straight people who fear same sex marriage - "How convenient that you don't have to seriously face the issues surrounding STRAIGHT relationships, instead all you do is point at gays and say, "NOT THAT!"

For the most part people who are secure in their self-image, including their sexuality do not feel threatened. People who do not feel physically, emotionally and spiritually secure? Wow, those are the big question mark aren't they? Those people have power, but many of them are searching to fill a vacuum in their lives.. The thought of ego consuming those people scares me.

I am hoping that some day we can all learn to appreciate each other again, right now there are so many isolated people it's very hard to imagine that happening. I have never seen people who are so connected together, 24x7 but yet somehow they are isolated in a way that humankind has never been before. Your "family" is no longer limited to the people who are physically around you.

[biblkman]

I think some people are born bisexual, homosexual or heterosexual some are just naturally attracted to same, opposite or both sexes, and others experiment out of curiosity, weather some childhood influence good or bad or just experimenting as an adult out of curiosity.

To Darkeyes... some people like to know where some of our wants came from, some people like smoking weed, and some of them wondered why did I start ( smoking weed isn't a bad thing ...in my opinion) for an example.

Like I'm an atheist and I know why...but a few years ago I wondered what and when was the defining moment I knew I was an atheist, sometimes its about self discovery and understanding

[darkeyes]

To Darkeyes... some people like to know where some of our wants came from, some people like smoking weed, and some of them wondered why did I start ( smoking weed isn't a bad thing ...in my opinion) for an example.
I didn't question seriously I said.. I was raised to be who I am and to be myself not who the world or those around thought I should be... I was raised with no anti gay or bi prejudice, no overbearing religion.. most of my questioning was of those who did not want me to be as I am... this gave me as I grew the knowledge of who and what I am.. and have always been easy with it and comfortable in my own skin... it doesn't mean I have no curiosity and interest... I do.. but being comfortable in my skin, and having never been abused sexually as a child, and being taught to fight and argue my corner, I did not question seriously what I am because I had no need to.. I am quite sure I am a product of my genes but that is because my parents allowed me to go where my genes led me... it was their way.. it is not the way of many, even most parents..but I do have the desire to know more not just about myself but about the human condition and what makes all of us what we are...

If I cant just add to my statement about never questioning.. in chat what seems a long time ago, a member of this site once threw at me that I was not bisexual but lesbian.. I poo poo'd it. Several other friends over the next year or so began increasingly to make the same judgement.. mostly at first I poo poo'd them too.. and yet here I am 6 or 7 years later happily lesbian.. my bisexuality had got up packed its bags and left me and I hadn't noticed... I did question a little for a time but never in great depth.. or more accurately, I began to wonder if they were right.. I was too busy denying what I had become to seriously think about it and question it.... I thought about it more than questioned.. about whether there was fire here as well as smoke.. and after a while, since it had been so long since I had had sex with a man, and realised it had been forever since I wanted to have sex with a man. and the thought of sex with a man turned me cold, I finally accepted what had happened to me... I didn't seriously question it.. I doubted it, and then once the evidence was so overwhelming I had no option I accepted it..that change has given me an interest in the evolution of human sexuality as we go through our lives.. and yes I would like to know more and find out what I can and listen to argument about it.. I'm a human being and naturally curious.. I may want to know why I am as I am and have become what I have become, and why others are as they are, but having become what I am, I don't question it.. why would I want to? I am extremely happy with what I am and what I have become..