How out are you?

[The Young Pretender]

I was contemplating this topic recently. In my thoughts, I considered the special circumstances that bisexuals may have and whether or not being out is strictly a necessity, among other things. So I decided to poll you guys.

My own situation is somewhat unique in that I'm basically out to all and sundry here in Australia where I'm currently resident, while I am perfectly closeted whenever I go home to New York. My very Catholic family lives there, and each household shamelessly gossips with the other. I refuse to even come out to my sister, as it's a terrible burden to carry a secret, and I won't risk being a gossip target. And yet part of me wants to. And that's just my mother's side! My father's side utterly disowned my gay uncle. On my mother's side, it's a more genteel "here's some money, and don't be 'in our faces' with it." Instead of outright exclusion, you just get to live on the margins are a second class citizen as a secret shame. Quite frankly, I don't see the benefit in that. "Coming out" makes everyone miserable, and I have the luxury of it being optional (due to being an expat). When I am home though, it is oppressive, to say the least.
:yikes2:

In Australia it's SO MUCH easier. I can be my kooky eccentric self and discuss all manner of *interesting* topics with my more uninhibited friends. I can't imagine hiding long term.

An issue that I have is that I feel as if being bisexual "corrupts" a great deal of relationships (I use this in a broad context, not in a romantic sense). One could add a simplified version of what I am feeling to the monosexual privilege checklist. My male friends keep me at (what I feel to be) arm's length, for fear that I lust after them. That they should be so privileged. ;) It's gotten to the point where I have long since given up to bother justifying my good/chaste intentions, so I decide to make some playful, harmless innuendo with friends. Of course in the "actions speak louder than words," my sex life is quite boring, chaste, and reserved. In fact, it's non-existent! With female friends, I feel slotted into the "gay friend zone." While it's hilarious to discuss the finer points of blowjobs over alcohol, there's that nagging voice in the back of my head that says, "They're still all stuck on the man-sex issue." Of course, I could be seeing phantoms.

I remember once I read, "Coming out is a necessary step to be a functional gay man in America." I thought to myself, "That's all well and good, but it doesn't apply to bisexuals." Now, I feel myself coming around to view it as very liberating.

So, what's your out status/thoughts?

[tenni]

I think that the only person that bisexuals need to come out to is yourself.


Your referencing and challenging “coming out” as essential to be a “functional gay man” and questioning the validity of such actions for bisexual men is a very important point. Such public coming out is slightly different for biguys than biwomen as well.

Societal taboos are stronger against bimen than biwomen. Women generally tend to look down on bimen. Coming out vey publicly may increase a biman’s chances of getting sexual with another man but seriously reduce his chances of being sexual and in a relationship with a woman without a lot of crap from her. (which is often more about her than him anyway...biphobia, possessiveness, monosexualism inability to understand accept bisexuality...etc.)

Interestingly, though, are some stats that I came across that biwomen have the highest depression and suicide thought rates ..more than bi men (second place) and a lot more that gay and lesiban peeps.

Hitting on women and men should be equal for bisexuals but YP reports that it is his guy friends pull back out of fear of sexual intimacy and the women ignore the potential that he may want to fuck them now that he says that he is bisexual...the women read “gay” and they are safe to treat him differently than other men (hetero men).

I don’t see a lot of good reasons to come out except to yourself and someone (regardless of gender) that you are sexual with...even then..if it is a hook up..who cares? (ya ya safe sex ;)

I am thinking along the lines of making “out”political supportive statements about bisexuality than proclaiming my sexuality from the top of a lamp post. In other words, using my words and ideas about bisexuality if someone makes an incorrect (bigotted, bi invisibility) statement ..Speak out about the issue rather than proclaiming your own bisexuality. If they ask, then tell them.

Family, is a different matter in your case. Similarly, if stating that you are bi is going to endanger your job or personal safety there is no need to scream.. I’m bisexual.

I would write that I am bordering on being totally out..but by my own terms and not some gay/lesbians' belief as to what "out" means. I do speak out about issues...I just need to wait for the opportunity and my own understanding as to what are our bisexual issues. The two that I can see are biphobia and bi invisibly in systemic situations.

[Neonaught]

Frankly, I don't see the point of being "out". I don't define myself in terms of my sexual tastes and practices. I also don't think it's anyone's business who I chose to be with. Labels are for canned goods!

[Basin_Bouy]

"Out" to about 3 ppl (female Friends), other then the guys who have shagged me.

[darkeyes]

Frankly, I don't see the point of being "out". I don't define myself in terms of my sexual tastes and practices. I also don't think it's anyone's business who I chose to be with. Labels are for canned goods!
U kno u are so right.. it isn't ne1's biz who u choose to b with.. but if bi (an gay) peeps are not out then they r invisible.. 2 each other as much as e 1 else... and by being invisible hardly advances the cause of bi (or gay) rights.. if every gay (and bi) had stayed invisible, we would still have a world like the 1950s and b4.. I don't define myself in terms of my sexual tastes and practices either.. my sexuality is just a part of me.. I, like everyone else, am far more than just my sexuality.. but I don't like injustice or oppression and bi (and gay) peeps have suffered oppression and injustice for millenia.. they have been denied the right to express themselves freely with each other.. where would we be if everyone took ur attitude?

The 1960s to date would never have happened and bi (and gay) peeps would still be hunted down like dogs by bigots, the law would tell us we cannot love, live with, marry and have sex with the person of our choice.. we would be in jail.. or worse; branded pervert.. or worse... we still are in the eyes of many and are still jailed and worse in many countries... but in most of the west at least we have a freedom those around in the 1950s and 60s could only dream of. We have it because back then and since people have come out and have fought for their right to be. Many still feel unable to and many have good, sound reasons why they cannot... we cannot force people to come out, but without people doing so we would still live in a queer dark ages afraid of our own shadows and everyone around us... we refuse to act as if we are ashamed of what we are...

..and just so u know.. I'm out as a lesbian. was once out as a bisexual... I suppose being married to a girl gives the game away.. but even before I was pretty open and free and easy and didn't care who knew.. not once I'd finally told me mum and dad... I was 14 when I told them I liked girls too... I dont go around militantly and get in people's faces to tell them what I am, but people find out and that's how it goes and how in time it should be for us all.. and if the discussion gets round to it for whatever reason, I tell them... I don't hide it but neither do I go out of my way to brag about it.. str8 peeps don't... neither should we whether we are gay lesbian or bisexual.. all we ask is that our sexuality is accorded the same status as the heterosexual world and that people find out about it as time tootles by in the same way as heterosexual people's sexuality is revealed to the world and without prejudice or bigoted discrimination based on what we are... slowly we are getting there... too slowly and far more slowly for men than women, and more slowly still for bisexual than for gay men, but we are getting there..

..and we are getting there because many of us are out and refusing to be locked up in the box of invisibility... we refuse to act as if we feel shame for what we are.

[IndyBiFun]

I'm out to just a handful of people.

[bityme]

Frankly, I don't see the point of being "out". I don't define myself in terms of my sexual tastes and practices. I also don't think it's anyone's business who I chose to be with. Labels are for canned goods!


I think that the only person that bisexuals need to come out to is yourself.

I am thinking along the lines of making “out”political supportive statements about bisexuality than proclaiming my sexuality from the top of a lamp post. In other words, using my words and ideas about bisexuality if someone makes an incorrect (bigotted, bi invisibility) statement ..Speak out about the issue rather than proclaiming your own bisexuality. If they ask, then tell them.

Family, is a different matter in your case. Similarly, if stating that you are bi is going to endanger your job or personal safety there is no need to scream.. I’m bisexual.

I agree with Neonaught and tenni.

Being "out" is really a matter of the need for others to be aware of your sexual orientation. From a personal point of view, that means my wife and anyone else we happen to invite into our bed. For any others, it is really none of their business.

From a social and political aspect, tenni makes an excellent point. Everyone, regardless of orientation should be speaking out against bigotry, phobic actions, and lack of intelligence, as well as religious, and other forms of, intolerance. To be proactive politically and socially in promoting equality and tolerance does not require disclosure of what you do in bed or who your partners are. As a caucasian, I can speak out against racial prejudice without having to claim that I am black. I can support gay rights without having to claim I am gay and I can advocate understanding and acceptance of bisexuality without the necessity of disclosure that I am bisexual.

Political activism does not have to be a "personal outing." To be effective, does a member of PETA have to claim to be a dog?

From a personal standpoint, my wife and I are "out" about being swingers or in the "lifestyle." While that information has resulted in some discomfort at times, we have not lost any friends or family over it. In fact, we have over time, been able to soften the reactions and broaden the understanding of some very bigoted individuals who move within our circle of friends.

As a example, one very homophobic, bigoted, macho, devoutly religious member of our motorcycle club has changed his views sufficiently to now accept the gay son of another member. He now understands that he can't catch homosexuality by being around someone who is gay, nor is he the object of gay conquest because he is straight. Intelligent conversation with him would not have been possible or productive had he been aware of our bisexuality. Just knowing that we were swingers has been hard for him to understand or accept.

While "coming out" might be viewed as a necessity for gays, I don't believe that is true for bisexuals. For us, it is more dependent on what our relationships project. Two men can easily live together or be close friends as viewed by the public, however, when the public image also includes the existence of love, romance, etc., their "coming out" becomes more of an issue. I believe that in the bisexual community, the majority of relationships are the "friends with benefits" type that are much easier to manage without the necessity of "coming out" to the world at large.

At present, I believe I have been, and can continue to be a much better advocate for change by remaining selective about disclosure of my personal sexual practices. I don't need to start out a conversation with a religious homophobic by saying "What makes you so intolerant? I suck cocks and think everyone should experience it." It is much easier and effective to say "You know, over the years I've learned that certain religious beliefs are not held as universally as some might desire. How does the practice of someone else personally effect you, and if it doesn't why are you opposed to them having the same freedom of choice that you do?"

I guess you could classify me a totally vocal, but not totally out.

Pappy

[ExSailor]

..... In other words you are deeply closeted but that's not new information and others on this site have said this like DuckiesDarling.

[darkeyes]

In other words you are deeply closeted but that's not new information and others on this site have said this like DuckiesDarling.
U are a very contemptible little man, Popeye... being "in the closet", either fully or partially, is nothing to be ashamed of and is often a necessity for many. While most of us fight for the right to be able to be "out", open and free from discrimination, oppression and bigotry, we also believe that each of us has a right not be because there are often very good reasons why that must be the case. Even if that is not the case, and if we truly believe in personal freedom, then people have the right to be out or not as a matter of personal choice.

[tenni]

In other words you are deeply closeted but that's not new information and others on this site have said this like DuckiesDarling.

Nope.. You don't seem to know what bisexual activism is.
You seem to think that bisexuals should behave like gay activists.
Read the post by pappy

You seem more of an old fashioned 1970's-80's, politically gay activist and rather intolerant of the differences between bisexual and gay people.

[ExSailor]

Tenni you're completely wrong as usual. I have done more for bisexuals and our rights than you and bityme ever will by staying in your locked or partially opened closets and claiming that because you and bityme personally want to stay closeted that bisexual people as a whole should stay deeply closeted as you both are. I've been out since the early 70s and am still out and I am still working for bisexual rights and larger LGBT rights through the 70s and today in 2013.

[The Young Pretender]

U kno u are so right.. it isn't ne1's biz who u choose to b with.. but if bi (an gay) peeps are not out then they r invisible.. 2 each other as much as e 1 else... and by being invisible hardly advances the cause of bi (or gay) rights.. if every gay (and bi) had stayed invisible, we would still have a world like the 1950s and b4.. I don't define myself in terms of my sexual tastes and practices either.. my sexuality is just a part of me.. I, like everyone else, am far more than just my sexuality.. but I don't like injustice or oppression and bi (and gay) peeps have suffered oppression and injustice for millenia.. they have been denied the right to express themselves freely with each other.. where would we be if everyone took ur attitude?

The 1960s to date would never have happened and bi (and gay) peeps would still be hunted down like dogs by bigots, the law would tell us we cannot love, live with, marry and have sex with the person of our choice.. we would be in jail.. or worse; branded pervert.. or worse... we still are in the eyes of many and are still jailed and worse in many countries... but in most of the west at least we have a freedom those around in the 1950s and 60s could only dream of. We have it because back then and since people have come out and have fought for their right to be. Many still feel unable to and many have good, sound reasons why they cannot... we cannot force people to come out, but without people doing so we would still live in a queer dark ages afraid of our own shadows and everyone around us... we refuse to act as if we are ashamed of what we are...

..and just so u know.. I'm out as a lesbian. was once out as a bisexual... I suppose being married to a girl gives the game away.. but even before I was pretty open and free and easy and didn't care who knew.. not once I'd finally told me mum and dad... I was 14 when I told them I liked girls too... I dont go around militantly and get in people's faces to tell them what I am, but people find out and that's how it goes and how in time it should be for us all.. and if the discussion gets round to it for whatever reason, I tell them... I don't hide it but neither do I go out of my way to brag about it.. str8 peeps don't... neither should we whether we are gay lesbian or bisexual.. all we ask is that our sexuality is accorded the same status as the heterosexual world and that people find out about it as time tootles by in the same way as heterosexual people's sexuality is revealed to the world and without prejudice or bigoted discrimination based on what we are... slowly we are getting there... too slowly and far more slowly for men than women, and more slowly still for bisexual than for gay men, but we are getting there..

..and we are getting there because many of us are out and refusing to be locked up in the box of invisibility... we refuse to act as if we feel shame for what we are.

For me, living the "heterosexual lie" just became too much. Sexual orientation is a huge part of who we are, from age 13/14 till death. Even a casual, "My wife and I are going to the beach tomorrow" flaunts sexual orientation. I grew tired of the sexism, casual and outright "faggot/queer" bashing, the implicit homo/biphobia of calling something 'so gay,' the assumptions of heterosexuality, and the sense that pandering to these people's bourgeois respectability didn't help the lot of of bisexuals in any way.

I agree fully with you (Darkeyes) that self-imposed invisibility gets us nowhere. I find it alarming that most of the respondents are more closeted than out. I also dislike when I see statements like this:
Being "out" is really a matter of the need for others to be aware of your sexual orientation. From a personal point of view, that means my wife and anyone else we happen to invite into our bed. For any others, it is really none of their business.

Being out, I am coming to realise, is not a matter of vanity. It's functionality and healthiness. Even if it does impact (many, but notably not all) friendships negatively, at least it's based on truth. My best friendships have gotten better for it. I find I also get more respectability from others in the queer world. As for healthiness, I do have very tangible reasons to remain in the closet when at "home." But my life isn't "home" any more. I'll holiday there, but I do not have a life there. My friends aren't there. My present (education) isn't there, and my future (employment) isn't there. But even still closeting is difficult. With it comes a sense of dishonesty, that is, "living a lie." Along with that closeting IMO also entails a sense of implicit/embedded shame and fear. I just can't live like that. How many men here are suffering some discomfort due to being closeted, even to their own wives?


While "coming out" might be viewed as a necessity for gays, I don't believe that is true for bisexuals. For us, it is more dependent on what our relationships project. Two men can easily live together or be close friends as viewed by the public, however, when the public image also includes the existence of love, romance, etc., their "coming out" becomes more of an issue. I believe that in the bisexual community, the majority of relationships are the "friends with benefits" type that are much easier to manage without the necessity of "coming out" to the world at large.

Our community is underdeveloped, under mobilised, and disparate.

And this is why so many gay men have problems with bisexuals. No self-respecting gay man would shove himself back into the closet to have a relationship with a bi man who isn't comfortable in his own skin. While one can cavalierly dismiss the coming out needs of a gay man vis-a-vis a bisexual, one can't dismiss their importance as a component of a bi man's dating/sex opportunity pool.

And there are those of us who want more than a casual fuck (though there's nothing wrong with those).:tongue:


Political activism does not have to be a "personal outing." To be effective, does a member of PETA have to claim to be a dog?

Having skin in the game does lend a great deal of credibility. Also, it's moderately hypocritical to advocate for LGBT freedoms while hiding behind an opposite sex partner and the privilege conferred therein.

[tenni]

Post 11
" I am still working for bisexual rights and larger LGBT rights through the 70s and today in 2013."

Which bisexual rights are you working for and how do they differ from working for the LGBT organizations and gay rights?


Post 12
"Our community is underdeveloped, under mobilised, and disparate."
I see your point and there is some validity to this point. We do not seem to be able to articulate our own needs that are different and separate from monosexuals inorder to unit and mobilize behind a valid bisexual issue. Those bisexuals who lean more to hetero monosexualism see little reason to mobilize.


"And this is why so many gay men have problems with bisexuals. No self-respecting gay man would shove himself back into the closet to have a relationship with a bi man who isn't comfortable in his own skin. While one can cavalierly dismiss the coming out needs of a gay man vis-a-vis a bisexual, one can't dismiss their importance as a component of a bi man's dating/sex opportunity pool."

Perhaps this means that bisexual men should only be involved with other bisexual men? Some gay men do not get us. Bissexual men may be comfortable in their own skin and still not see the need to be out like a gay person.

[fredtyg]

I've always been one who doesn't feel there should be an obligation to out one's self to anyone, unless it's someone that has a need to know, or you just can't handle what you might feel is deceiving others. As others have noted, what's to be gained from it? It could have negative consequences in some social circles.

Besides, what business is it for most others to know I enjoy sucking cock and having anal sex? I don't consider that a proper subject for general conversation for the vast majority of people. It's no different that asking the gal at the local drugstore if she likes taking it up the ass. It's none of my business, as are my sexual preferences to others.

I did make some effort to out myself starting a few years ago just because it made me feel more comfortable. I didn't like feeling like I was trying to hide a big part of me. However, I didn't post a sign on my house or make a big announcement. Mostly I just did it online by using my regular e-mail address name for all the queer sites I'm a member of. I also made it fairly obvious on my Facebook page that I'm at least bisexual by leaving obvious hints.

I've also told a few people, but only those I felt were either good friends or that I wanted to know. There's probably more people that know I'm queer than I'm aware of. If someone were to ask me, I've told myself I will tell them, no matter who it might be.

Haven't had that tested on myself yet, but did get a taste of it a couple years ago I went to a breakfast with a bunch of old military friends. One of those guys was supposedly queer, although I didn't have first hand knowledge about him. As the group was laughing and joking, for some reason all of the sudden my being queer entered my mind. I wondered how I'd handle it if someone there all of the sudden asked me about myself? What if someone asked, "So, Fred, is it true what I heard about you....?

That made me very nervous, so I don't know how I'd answer the question in all situations.

[Velorex]

Frankly, I don't see the point of being "out". I don't define myself in terms of my sexual tastes and practices. I also don't think it's anyone's business who I chose to be with. Labels are for canned goods!

I could not agree more!

[The Young Pretender]

I could not agree more!


This forum's very name is a "label." For those not into labels, there's a forum called "empty closets" which seems to cater to those who don't see themselves as fitting into classical gender or sexuality labels.

Further, labels are not inherently bad. While they may be unnecessary among a small group of bohemian friends and their evolved sensibilities, in the wider world they are a powerful organising tool in demanding rights. If American blacks failed to stand together as blacks and took a wishy-washy and strictly "we're all human" view of limited appeal, the US would still have "whites only" cafes. If gays and lesbians didn't band together under their own specific identities, P (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/first_same_sex_weddings_take_place_Cnzs5B8JcW6EC6E su04oOJ)hyllis and Connie ( http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/first_same_sex_weddings_take_place_Cnzs5B8JcW6EC6E su04oOJ ) would never have gotten married. The modern LGBT movement has even successfully reclaimed the slur "queer" as a catch-all label for the movement.

Quite frankly, IMO, all this talk of being closeted and "I don't do labels" really just screams, "I prefer the comfort of being implicitly labelled heterosexual."

[bityme]

What an amazing turnabout. Young Pretender laments the need to refrain from disclosure of his sexuality to his family in America and comments on the difficulties exposing his bisexuality to male and female friends. He asks about our out status/thoughts.

A number of us respond, indicating varying degrees of openness about our sexuality and how it effects various interpersonal relationships in our lives.

Enter ExSailor, patting himself on the back for all he has done for bisexuals and their rights and becoming personal having misread and misinterpreted other posters.


Tenni you're completely wrong as usual. I have done more for bisexuals and our rights than you and bityme ever will by staying in your locked or partially opened closets and claiming that because you and bityme personally want to stay closeted that bisexual people as a whole should stay deeply closeted as you both are. I've been out since the early 70s and am still out and I am still working for bisexual rights and larger LGBT rights through the 70s and today in 2013.


Incredibly, Young Pretender picks up ExSailor’s mantra.


For me, living the "heterosexual lie" just became too much. Sexual orientation is a huge part of who we are, from age 13/14 till death. Even a casual, "My wife and I are going to the beach tomorrow" flaunts sexual orientation. I grew tired of the sexism, casual and outright "faggot/queer" bashing, the implicit homo/biphobia of calling something 'so gay,' the assumptions of heterosexuality, and the sense that pandering to these people's bourgeois respectability didn't help the lot of of bisexuals in any way.

I agree fully with you (Darkeyes) that self-imposed invisibility gets us nowhere. I find it alarming that most of the respondents are more closeted than out. I also dislike when I see statements like this:
“Being "out" is really a matter of the need for others to be aware of your sexual orientation. From a personal point of view, that means my wife and anyone else we happen to invite into our bed. For any others, it is really none of their business.”

Also, it's moderately hypocritical to advocate for LGBT freedoms while hiding behind an opposite sex partner and the privilege conferred therein.


I have noted that the frequency of posts in the forum and the variety of subjects has substantially decreased over the past year. Perhaps it is, at least in part, due to such personal attacks.

ExSailor: I commend you for your stated dedication to advancement of your rights and those of others. Please, however, don’t presume to run comparisons between us. You lack sufficient information about me to make such a judgment and you obviously misread my post. My wife is a bit less friendly. After reading the posts, her comment to you is: “How straight of you. While the words are different, your attitude toward others is exactly the same type of attitude seen in the reactions of homophobic, ultra religious straights to the LGBT community at large.

Young Pretender: Your expressed judgment that I am hypocritical in advocating LGBT rights because I am married to a woman is presumptuous to say the least. Both of us are bisexual and we truthfully disclose it to anyone who asks if the disclosure would be productive. Otherwise they are asked “Why? Would you like us to be?” or are told that we are open-minded or that it is none of their business. Certainly, if the question is asked in the context of our advocacy, the inquiry would prompt the honest answer.

Over time, I have become increasingly dissatisfied with the In-The-Closet/Out-Of-The-Closet construct. The closet narrative sets up an implicit dualism between being "in" or being "out" wherein those who are "in" are often stigmatized as living false, unhappy lives. Philosopher and critical analyst Judith Butler (“Imitation and Gender insubordination” in “Inside/Out: Lesbian Theories, Gay Theories,” Psychology Press,1991) states that the in/out metaphor creates a binary opposition which pretends that the closet is dark, marginal, and false and that being out in the "light of illumination" reveals a true (or essential) identity. To me, life is not that simplistic.

As Diana Fuss (Editor of “Inside/Out: Lesbian Theories, Gay Theories,” Psychology Press,1991) explains, "the problem of course with the inside/outside rhetoric...is that such polemics disguise the fact that most of us are both inside and outside at the same time." Further, "To be out, in common gay parlance, is precisely to be no longer out; to be out is to be finally outside of exteriority and all the exclusions and deprivations such outsiderhood imposes. Or, put another way, to be out is really to be in--inside the realm of the visible, the speakable, the culturally intelligible." In other words, coming out constructs the closet it supposedly destroys and the self it supposedly reveals, "the first appearance of the homosexual as a 'species' rather than a 'temporary aberration' also marks the moment of the homosexual's disappearance--into the closet."

I view Fuss’ statement as a recognition that both ends of the spectrum can produce their own restrictions or confinement. Both disclosure and nondisclosure can have varying effects on personal feelings, ego, and self-worth as well as interpersonal relationships, group/community acceptance, etc.

I am prone to agree with Seidman, Meeks, and Traschen (“Beyond the Closet? The Changing Social Meaning of Homosexuality in the United States,” Sexualities 2, 1999) who argue that "the closet" may be becoming an antiquated metaphor in the lives of modern day Americans for two reasons.
1. Homosexuality is becoming increasingly normalized and the shame and secrecy often associated with it appears to be in decline.
2. The metaphor of the closet hinges upon the notion that stigma management is a way of life. However, stigma management may actually be increasingly done situationally.

This is particularly true in the bisexual community. Disclosure to someone that you are “bisexual” immediately raises a myriad of questions and speculations. The disclosure itself attributes any and all forms of gay or lesbian sexual conduct to you as well as all forms of heterosexual conduct. In today’s society, it still might be easier for one to understand disclosure of one being gay or lesbian that it is to understand one being bisexual. There have already been many posts in this forum about gays not understanding bisexuality.

This is pointed our by YoungPretender’s response to my statement:

"While "coming out" might be viewed as a necessity for gays, I don't believe that is true for bisexuals. For us, it is more dependent on what our relationships project. Two men can easily live together or be close friends as viewed by the public, however, when the public image also includes the existence of love, romance, etc., their "coming out" becomes more of an issue. I believe that in the bisexual community, the majority of relationships are the "friends with benefits" type that are much easier to manage without the necessity of "coming out" to the world at large."

His response:


Our community is underdeveloped, under mobilised, and disparate.

And this is why so many gay men have problems with bisexuals. No self-respecting gay man would shove himself back into the closet to have a relationship with a bi man who isn't comfortable in his own skin. While one can cavalierly dismiss the coming out needs of a gay man vis-a-vis a bisexual, one can't dismiss their importance as a component of a bi man's dating/sex opportunity pool.

And there are those of us who want more than a casual fuck (though there's nothing wrong with those).

My comment was certainly not cavalier. It was a recognition that situationally, gays and bisexuals are different. Even a cursory review of the threads in this forum will reveal many more discussions about bisexual men seeking to avoid disclosure or being outed than discussions of open bisexual relationships. Just run a search to see how often the subject of cheating arises.


Being out, I am coming to realise, is not a matter of vanity. It's functionality and healthiness. Even if it does impact (many, but notably not all) friendships negatively, at least it's based on truth. My best friendships have gotten better for it. I find I also get more respectability from others in the queer world. As for healthiness, I do have very tangible reasons to remain in the closet when at "home." But my life isn't "home" any more. I'll holiday there, but I do not have a life there. My friends aren't there. My present (education) isn't there, and my future (employment) isn't there. But even still closeting is difficult. With it comes a sense of dishonesty, that is, "living a lie." Along with that closeting IMO also entails a sense of implicit/embedded shame and fear. I just can't live like that.

YoungPretender: I can certainly appreciate your position. Each of us must come to our own decision about how we lead our lives. Your experiences in Australia when compared to your family home in New York obviously cause you concern. None of us can make a decision for you about the extent of disclosure that would be appropriate. I certainly would not attempt to give you advice in that regard. After all, in addition to the two environments, you are also concerned about your personal view of yourself. As you put it, the issues of “functionality and healthiness” are important too.

Your relating how the two environments differ does point out how one could conclude that the closet metaphor is becoming antiquated and overall, disclosure has become more situational than in the past.

Pappy

[tenni]

This forum's very name is a "label." The modern LGBT movement has even successfully reclaimed the slur "queer" as a catch-all label for the movement.

I can only speak for myself but suspect that I am not the only bisexual on this site that does not identify with "queer" and even the label "LGBT" as part of my identity and self labelling. There does seem to be a difference between those who are attempting to "reclaim" "queer" and those who do not wish either term. LGBT to me means, gay and lesbian. It doesn't mean bisexual. I identify with the label bisexual all on its own. I reject the concept of in or out of the closet. I look at those who speak of in and out as "gay" even though they identify as bisexual. People like yourself and Ex just scream gay philosophical and indoctrinated into a gay sub culture that I do not identify with.


Quite frankly, IMO, all this talk of being closeted and "I don't do labels" really just screams, "I prefer the comfort of being implicitly labelled heterosexual."

Although I do labels, I accept that there seems to be a large section of bisexuals who do identify with the fluidity concept quite genuinely. They neither select hetero or gay.

On the other hand, I find it amusing that some who self identify as not hetero will refer to their gay side. They still identify with the dual choice of being hetero or gay. They use terms like gay instead of finding words that are not so monosexual. Same sex attraction may be a better semantical separation from the monosexuals. Reject both terms hetero and gay. Find our own bisexual terms.

[The Young Pretender]

What an amazing turnabout. Young Pretender laments the need to refrain from disclosure of his sexuality to his family in America and comments on the difficulties exposing his bisexuality to male and female friends. He asks about our out status/thoughts.

A number of us respond, indicating varying degrees of openness about our sexuality and how it effects various interpersonal relationships in our lives.

Enter ExSailor, patting himself on the back for all he has done for bisexuals and their rights and becoming personal having misread and misinterpreted other posters.




Incredibly, Young Pretender picks up ExSailor’s mantra.

Because I agree with Sailor's fundamental underlying principle about being out.

If it should seem hypocritical that I am "attacking" the closet, while still keeping a foot inside, bear in mind what a minute fraction of my life that (home) has been for the last several years, keep in mind that I apply my own criticisms to myself. I am not doing it because my sexuality is "none of anyone's business" or a similar excuse, I am doing it because I want to benefits conferred with the assumption of heterosexuality.


I have noted that the frequency of posts in the forum and the variety of subjects has substantially decreased over the past year. Perhaps it is, at least in part, due to such personal attacks.

No. The reason I am distanced from this forum is because I am bored by the continuous banality of the m-m sex threads. It gets repetitive reading about some closeted middle aged man asking about cocksucking month-in-month out. I recognise though that this is a matter of taste.


ExSailor: I commend you for your stated dedication to advancement of your rights and those of others. Please, however, don’t presume to run comparisons between us. You lack sufficient information about me to make such a judgment and you obviously misread my post. My wife is a bit less friendly. After reading the posts, her comment to you is: “How straight of you. While the words are different, your attitude toward others is exactly the same type of attitude seen in the reactions of homophobic, ultra religious straights to the LGBT community at large.

How enlightened to use "straight" as a slur.


Young Pretender: Your expressed judgment that I am hypocritical in advocating LGBT rights because I am married to a woman is presumptuous to say the least. Both of us are bisexual and we truthfully disclose it to anyone who asks if the disclosure would be productive. Otherwise they are asked “Why? Would you like us to be?” or are told that we are open-minded or that it is none of their business. Certainly, if the question is asked in the context of our advocacy, the inquiry would prompt the honest answer.

Your first post in this thread did not exactly give the impression of a transparent acknowledgement of your bisexuality. The caveats and conditionalities don't convey a much better message. Do you wear a wedding bad? Does your wife wear a wedding band or engagement ring? Do you freely introduce your wife as your wife in social circumstances? Does she likewise portray you as her husband in social circumstances? If yes, then you freely disclose the "hetero" element of your respective sexualities. Heterosexuality is so flaunted, open, and everybody's business that it sounds foolish to me to say that sexuality, generally speaking, is "nobody's business." I see that rhetoric (generally, not you specifically) and read it as an apology for the closet.


Over time, I have become increasingly dissatisfied with the In-The-Closet/Out-Of-The-Closet construct. The closet narrative sets up an implicit dualism between being "in" or being "out" wherein those who are "in" are often stigmatized as living false, unhappy lives. Philosopher and critical analyst Judith Butler (“Imitation and Gender insubordination” in “Inside/Out: Lesbian Theories, Gay Theories,” Psychology Press,1991) states that the in/out metaphor creates a binary opposition which pretends that the closet is dark, marginal, and false and that being out in the "light of illumination" reveals a true (or essential) identity. To me, life is not that simplistic.

I generally don't see many examples of people repressing/hiding their true selves and being happy with it. http://www.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?13884-How-to-explore-safely-discreetly-and-without-stress That strikes me as a less than ideal situation. And how many others on this forum are living with a degraded quality of life in the closet? Further, even if an in/out dichotomy isn't a fully explanatory ontology, it's longevity and acceptance surely must give its utility some credence. Of course this could in itself be a divergence of queer theory and queer "practice."


As Diana Fuss (Editor of “Inside/Out: Lesbian Theories, Gay Theories,” Psychology Press,1991) explains, "the problem of course with the inside/outside rhetoric...is that such polemics disguise the fact that most of us are both inside and outside at the same time." Further, "To be out, in common gay parlance, is precisely to be no longer out; to be out is to be finally outside of exteriority and all the exclusions and deprivations such outsiderhood imposes. Or, put another way, to be out is really to be in--inside the realm of the visible, the speakable, the culturally intelligible." In other words, coming out constructs the closet it supposedly destroys and the self it supposedly reveals, "the first appearance of the homosexual as a 'species' rather than a 'temporary aberration' also marks the moment of the homosexual's disappearance--into the closet."

I would wonder if that is a mainstream or revisionist account?

Otherwise, I really question this in my observable world. I'd argue that intolerance of anything outside heteronormativity creates the closet while acceptance breaks it. My experience was that among young people in the UK, closeting was very rare. A mixture of actual and "enforced" toleration made it a far rarer phenomenon than in my native Long Island. As unscientific as this may sound, on a given hookup side (manhunt, adam4adam, etc), the amount of "discreet" and "closeted" chaps was far higher on LI. Your mileage may vary. IMO, the closet is a safe place which can provide very basic security in an environment deemed intolerant/insecure (though I needn't repeat my thoughts on the price of that security).


I view Fuss’ statement as a recognition that both ends of the spectrum can produce their own restrictions or confinement. Both disclosure and nondisclosure can have varying effects on personal feelings, ego, and self-worth as well as interpersonal relationships, group/community acceptance, etc.

I am prone to agree with Seidman, Meeks, and Traschen (“Beyond the Closet? The Changing Social Meaning of Homosexuality in the United States,” Sexualities 2, 1999) who argue that "the closet" may be becoming an antiquated metaphor in the lives of modern day Americans for two reasons.
1. Homosexuality is becoming increasingly normalized and the shame and secrecy often associated with it appears to be in decline.
2. The metaphor of the closet hinges upon the notion that stigma management is a way of life. However, stigma management may actually be increasingly done situationally.

This is particularly true in the bisexual community. Disclosure to someone that you are “bisexual” immediately raises a myriad of questions and speculations. The disclosure itself attributes any and all forms of gay or lesbian sexual conduct to you as well as all forms of heterosexual conduct. In today’s society, it still might be easier for one to understand disclosure of one being gay or lesbian that it is to understand one being bisexual. There have already been many posts in this forum about gays not understanding bisexuality.


This is pointed our by YoungPretender’s response to my statement:

"While "coming out" might be viewed as a necessity for gays, I don't believe that is true for bisexuals. For us, it is more dependent on what our relationships project. Two men can easily live together or be close friends as viewed by the public, however, when the public image also includes the existence of love, romance, etc., their "coming out" becomes more of an issue. I believe that in the bisexual community, the majority of relationships are the "friends with benefits" type that are much easier to manage without the necessity of "coming out" to the world at large."

His response:

My comment was certainly not cavalier. It was a recognition that situationally, gays and bisexuals are different. Even a cursory review of the threads in this forum will reveal many more discussions about bisexual men seeking to avoid disclosure or being outed than discussions of open bisexual relationships. Just run a search to see how often the subject of cheating arises.

YoungPretender: I can certainly appreciate your position. Each of us must come to our own decision about how we lead our lives. Your experiences in Australia when compared to your family home in New York obviously cause you concern. None of us can make a decision for you about the extent of disclosure that would be appropriate. I certainly would not attempt to give you advice in that regard. After all, in addition to the two environments, you are also concerned about your personal view of yourself. As you put it, the issues of “functionality and healthiness” are important too.

Your relating how the two environments differ does point out how one could conclude that the closet metaphor is becoming antiquated and overall, disclosure has become more situational than in the past.

Pappy

Re: Cheating - file that under reasons why I less frequently visit this forum. I neither condone nor relate to it. The amount of closeted men sneaking sausage suppers on the side sometimes makes me wonder if I accidentally went over to the "shy-bi guys" forum.:rolleyes:

Re: situationAt least we agree on this much. One's situation does create/impact the closet. I would add to that my reiteration that ignorant, repressive fucks build the closet (in my case, it was an island packed with conservative mostly Catholic Christians). Those in that environment can bring their closets with them mentally when they leave that environment.

While I wish the closet became antiquated, far too many feel the need to shut themselves in for my contentedness. I find it sad, critical theory be damned, that 85% of the poll respondents feel the need to be mostly or totally closeted.

[*pan*]

to make it short, it is on a need to know basis and most don't need to know lol

[CurEUs_Male]

I fall into the need to know camp on out.
My wife (we struggle with what it means, what it will mean. )
A friend - we met swinging before I was really sure I was bi, he is, and it is good to know someone you can talk openly with.
My gay brother - that is more of I needed to share than he needed to know, but it makes a difference to have that relative know.
My therapist. - obviously.
All the people on this site and a few other cyber support style sites. Although less of you know who I am, there are a few in every crowd that will recognize someone online.

Thats it for now. My children , siblings, mother, aunts & uncles, in laws are not invited to know. In part, there is much uncertainty and I want to maintain some level of 'normalcy' where there is no need to share. I haven't shared my straight sexual tendencies with any of them, why share my alternate tendencies?

[ExSailor]

Because I agree with Sailor's fundamental underlying principle about being out. If it should seem hypocritical that I am "attacking" the closet, while still keeping a foot inside, bear in mind what a minute fraction of my life that (home) has been for the last several years, keep in mind that I apply my own criticisms to myself. I am not doing it because my sexuality is "none of anyone's business" or a similar excuse, I am doing it because I want to benefits conferred with the assumption of heterosexuality. No. The reason I am distanced from this forum is because I am bored by the continuous banality of the m-m sex threads. It gets repetitive reading about some closeted middle aged man asking about cocksucking month-in-month out. I recognise though that this is a matter of taste. Otherwise, I really question this in my observable world. I'd argue that intolerance of anything outside heteronormativity creates the closet while acceptance breaks it. My experience was that among young people in the UK, closeting was very rare. A mixture of actual and "enforced" toleration made it a far rarer phenomenon than in my native Long Island. As unscientific as this may sound, on a given hookup side (manhunt, adam4adam, etc), the amount of "discreet" and "closeted" chaps was far higher on LI. Your mileage may vary. IMO, the closet is a safe place which can provide very basic security in an environment deemed intolerant/insecure (though I needn't repeat my thoughts on the price of that security). Re: Cheating - file that under reasons why I less frequently visit this forum. I neither condone nor relate to it. The amount of closeted men sneaking sausage suppers on the side sometimes makes me wonder if I accidentally went over to the "shy-bi guys" forum.:rolleyes: Re: situationAt least we agree on this much. One's situation does create/impact the closet. I would add to that my reiteration that ignorant, repressive fucks build the closet (in my case, it was an island packed with conservative mostly Catholic Christians). Those in that environment can bring their closets with them mentally when they leave that environment. While I wish the closet became antiquated, far too many feel the need to shut themselves in for my contentedness. I find it sad, critical theory be damned, that 85% of the poll respondents feel the need to be mostly or totally closeted. Attitudes like the ones Bityme and Tenni have get us bisexuals nowhere at all. Being completely closeted and having the cowardly isolationist, self-defeating, and absurd attitude of "My Bisexuality is something that is nobody else's business!" and "The only person a bisexual needs to come out to is himself/herself." is an attitude of complacency and cowardice. Many people on this site besides myself have noticed how there are people who are majorly vocal about what bisexual people as a whole should do, however they are deeply closeted individuals on this site, and their attitudes do not reflect the larger bisexual community of bisexual people-including bisexual men as a whole at all.

[chapsmccall]

Frankly, I don't see the point of being "out". I don't define myself in terms of my sexual tastes and practices. I also don't think it's anyone's business who I chose to be with. Labels are for canned goods!
i totally agree with you

[Tanzanite]

My wife knows I am bi, as does the longtime girlfriend I had before her, 15 years ago. I am not out at work or to friends at large, though.

[Axumite]

I have a cousin who has told me he is bi but i haven't told him or anyone else because its none of their business and they honestly don't need to know.

[fredtyg]

I suppose it's easy for me to say, but if someone confided in me that they were bi, it might be one of those cases I'd feel obligated to tell them. If nothing else, for support and to establish camaraderie with another bi.

[open2joy]

Why is it always like trying to herd cats?

[The Young Pretender]

I suppose it's easy for me to say, but if someone confided in me that they were bi, it might be one of those cases I'd feel obligated to tell them. If nothing else, for support and to establish camaraderie with another bi.

If the likelihood of someone confessing their bi side to you could be in any way gauged by this forum, there is an 85% (or thereabouts) chance they would not.

[darkeyes]

Because a lot of people have the closeted attitude out of fear and thinking they actually have privacy and they have the old fashioned attitude of "It's nobody's business that I am bisexual!" and we have closeted gay types like Fredtyg who claim to be bisexual but are really gay. Fortunately most bisexuals and bisexual youth do not have this attitude of self loathing and living in the closet.
Uhuh.. how many incarnations is that now? U really need to change what u have to say about people and how u say it...

[tenni]

Uhuh.. how many incarnations is that now? U really need to change what u have to say about people and how u say it...

he he he ;)

I do wonder if "being public" (as opposed to coming out BS) about their sexuality is increasing in frequency for young bisexuals. I have not read a survey but there may be some truth to being publicly bisexual has an identity factor for some younger people that they feel the need to share their sexuality with others. Then again, "being public about being gay" celebrity has more commonality than "being publicly bisexual" for celebrity. The two factors are probably not connected.

Why is it like herding cats?
Perhaps bisexuals are less likely to feel a need to identity with a group? Bisexuals may be more deviantly independent and less likely to be group joiners than monosexuals? Then again, most bisexuals feel comfort and relief when they find a site such as this. Some claim that they have a feeling of community on sites like this.

[Chris_t_boston]

Bi guy here.

I don't proclaim sexual preference to anyone outside of a need to know basis. I don't talk about sex that I have with my wife to friends/family.

I'm out to my wife, her brother (who she confided in after my affair with a guy), two marriage counselors and two therapists. Beyond that, it's no one's business