HUGO CHAVEZ: Saint or Sinner?

[tenni]

HUGO CHAVEZ


The man was controversial at his roots. Some in the west smeared him including the recent comments from Canada’s Prime Minister Harper at the announcement of Chavez’s death.


Here are some charts on how he changed his country’s economic and social standards. It is rather interesting. Nationalizing oil resources seemed to work for Venezuela ( for some)?




http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/the-americas-blog/venezuelan-economic-and-social-performance-under-hugo-chavez-in-graphs


Your thoughts?

[darkeyes]

A sinner.. like the rest of us... a flawed and imperfect man, he could be petty and he could be unwise in the choice of some of his friends and the economy of his country is not as healthy as it could be, but then whose is? He was a sinner who cared and did for the poor of his country what few of our leaders would dream of doing. U love him or hate him and he was not without fault... but he was a democratic socialist who allowed the most free and fair elections anywhere on the planet to take place, who has allowed most of the media to remain in private hands, and who gave hope to a people, and hope to a continent.It is to be hoped that his revolution can prosper under his successor, but he leaves a hole in his country's social, economic and political life which will be exploited very quickly by much less scrupulous and far less egalitarian people than he.. He was a man of the people and whatever we think of him, he will be sorely missed, except perhaps by the Governments of those alleged democracies of which most of us on .com are citizens.

[zigzig]

He was a bright leader comparing to other Latino America presidents, and unlike others being dependent from North America, Europe or China, and was interested in developing the country for the people.

[Brian]

I am not a fan of the far left (or the far right), but after reading "The Motorcycle Diaries" (the memoir of Che Guevara), I gained an appreciation for where Latin America's left is coming from. There has been a LOT of almost unbelievable injustice done in Central and South America in the name of capitalism and a lot of sputtering, failed attempts at democracy which have tainted it. If I had witnessed much of the same injustice that Guevara and others did, I just might have considered socialism/communism too. It is sort of the same thing with Mandela, who flirted with communism when he was young - can you blame him when apartheid was done under the name of democracy?

Having said that though, it is nice to see true democracy having taken hold in Brazil and Argentina (as large-scale examples) after several failed attempts. There is still much injustice in Latin American democracies but much less than there was.

So I am no huge Chavez fan and don't share many of his beliefs, BUT I respect him for his skills and his different point of view.

- Drew :paw:

[Velorex]

Hugo Chavez was a fascist pig, plain and simple.

In the early days of his regime, he murdered ten of thousands of people that didn't fit into his ideology, and did a damn good job hiding it for many years. He had internment camps, and stole money and property from individuals all in the name of nationalization. Like many other socialist leaders on this earth, he annihilated those that did not believe in him and/or his regime. Why do you think they called the people Chavistas? The were supporters of Chavez, and that's all he wanted in Venezuela.

In 2011 the intentional homicide rate per 100,000 was at 45.1 compared to 24.7 just twelve years earlier. More than half of that rise was from murders by the national police dept. upon unarmed citizens. These are statistics that are staggering!

Inflation is 31.6% in 2011, and more than 70% of it's population is at or below poverty level.

How about the rules that Chavez put upon Venezuelan TV channels that were forced to play hours of his propaganda speeches or be shut down.

Venezuela is one of the world's top oil producers, yet at a time of soaring oil prices in the world, shortages of staples like milk, meat, and toilet paper were a chronic part of life there.

He essentially destroyed one of the most competent, successful, state run companies in the world.

He was a selfish pig, who left behind a trail of dead bodies, rampant poverty, and hopelessness, all for his own narcissistic, political gain.

Good riddance!!

[BiDaveDtown]

He starved, murdered, and killed thousands of his own people which is not a surprise. Chavez was quick to blame other countries as being genocidal when he practiced genocide towards his own people in Venezuela. Despite the brainwashed people who cannot think for themselves who think he helped them or the poor of Venezuela he did nothing to help them. South American and Latin American governments and politicians are some of the most corrupt in the world including Chavez. Socialism, Communism, and Marxism have never worked, will never work, and have always been shown to fail.

[3waytrey]

He was a punk - good riddance.

[jamieknyc]

Chavez had some real accomplishments in bringing public services to the poor, in a region where for decades two per cent of the people drove sports cars and 98% lived in shacks and ate beans. He also destroyed Venezuela's economy, threatened to destabilize the region, postured as a belligerent buffoon and persecuted Venezuela's tiny Jewish minority. Imagine if Mussolini had become mortally ill in 1925, and you have an idea of what Chavez was.

[BiBedBud]

^^^
You Gringos have no idea!

All you have is your own lies! (I won't bother to counter them, since it wouldn't be worth the keystrokes.)

Hugo Chavez was imperfect, no doubt; and sometimes much worse than imperfect. But, in the final summation; perhaps nobody in history has lifted so many out of such grinding poverty; as has Hugo Chavez.

His biggest 'sin' was using the natural wealth of his nation to better the lot of that nation's poor. (Sorry, Exxon/Texaco/ et. al.)

Chavez's largess extended even beyond his country's borders, and in fact, he provided free heating oil even to thousands of poor Americans for many years; while the American administration and establishment villified him for treating the poor like his shareholders.

PERSPECTIVE: He was elected four (4) times by the only people whose opinion matters -- the People of Venezuela (who know a dictator when they see one; having experienced a US-backed tyranny prior to Chavez).

Mark my words: His successor Maduro will win easilly on April 14 because Chavez gave him his endorsement, and both men and their shared policies are popular in Venezuela. All this talk of a "new day in Venezuela" is doing nothing except rubbing the wrong Venezuelans the wrong way. (Whether they are voters or the 'official' Venezuelans currently in positions of power.)

The unbridled glee exhibitted by many Americans upon the death of Hugo Chavez, *THE NATIONAL HERO OF VENEZUELA* and a super-popular figure across the Americas and the wider world -- this reflects very, very poorly on those Americans. It is like watching those Americans live-up to the charicature of the 'Ugly American'.

Americans can spit all the venom they want; their prospects in Venezuela will not improve until America changes its approach. Dancing at the funeral isn't constructive.

[zigzig]

Reading this reminds me of The Illuminati theory. Maybe it is based on the truth, because countries with the most resources are always oppressing to it's people, like some other is controlling the country, and the president is just a puppet.

[darkeyes]

It doesn't surprise me that many Americans think of Chavez as buffoon and nasty man.. they do any world leader who questions their morally superior, high and mightiness...neither does it surprise me that most outside the US see him somewhat differently. It doesn't matter how either Americans or ne 1 else outside Venezuela see him..it is how Venezuelans see him which is important..

Chavez was an imperfect man and made many mistakes... the economy is not as healthy as it could be but then few economies are.. any state which continues to work for and improve the lot of the poor as its economy struggles is, in my opinion, somewhat more moral and better than any of ours can claim to be. The rich squeal because their right to rule unchallenged is for the present suspended, and they must pay their dues like any one else. They no longer have absolute power over the lives of the great mass of ordinary poor working people. Capitalism's writ in the country is not abolished but it is restricted.... any government which reduces its country's oil production by a third and gets a return of 7 times the value of the production heights, and invests much of that additional revenue in the poor and the infrastructure of his country is led by no buffoon however much others may wish us to think he is. The problems with the economy are not insurmountable even with high inflation... at least high inflation has been no justification to go for a massive austerity package as other economies have done with the result that the poor cop it, become ever more impoverished and the wealthy sit high and dry protected and indeed, in the case of the very wealthy.. the obscenely rich... made richer and more powerful and handed what little the less well off have to live and survive by a government more of Cameron's hue...... or worse.. by what before Chavez passed as government...

Allegations of fascism and the horrors inflicted upon his country are just that.. allegations of desperation by the right of America. Compared to the oppression and horrors endured by the people of Venezuela and inflicted upon them by those before Chavez, present day Venezuela is a paradise indeed.. and for all the great steps forward taken under the man's tenure of office, it is far from being that even now... wrongs will be and are being done in the name of government and many will be wrongs we should rightly condemn and hope his successor eliminates them,but compared to the progress and the good done by Chavez, these are wrongs which should not deflect from the overall progress made by the country during his term of office...

Why we must ask ourselves does the great superpower that is the US loathe the man so and all he stood for? Could it have something to do with the challenge to US hegemony over the South American continent? Why no US backed military coup such as occurred with Allende in Chile back in the 1970s? Well, they have tried and were found wanting... Chavez may have been a buffoon.. something I think he liked people to think... but he wasn't buffoon enough to allow the military to win the day in its attempted coup a decade ago... and Venezuala is still a democracy; still has freedom of speech; is still a country with an overwhelmingly free press which backed anyone but Chavez and is backing anyone but Maduro... and why outside of the US, in the main, do we see Chavez differently? Could it be that we haven't been quite so brainwashed and suffer quite the same level of paranoia as the superpower that is the US? We don't think Chavez was a saint at all... but neither do we think he was the devil incarnate like some...

[BiDaveDtown]

Chavez was a buffoon and a nasty man and so are all of his supporters. What's even more hilarious than the idiots here who think that Socialism, Marxism, and Communism actually work and have the pipe dream that they will work is a Canadian calling someone else from North America a gringo. :rolleyes: Chavez did nothing to uplift the poverty of Venezuela, and yes Chavez was a dictator who killed his own people and rigged his own elections while stealing billions in money from his own people he was claiming to "help". He also supported the genocide of bisexual and gay men in Iran by supporting Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

[darkeyes]

I have already said that he chose some of his friends badly, but no more badly than successive American Presidents or British Prime Ministers and would actually dare to suggest less so.. you should consider just who was responsible for making discrimination of people on the basis of sexual orientation illegal and who was responsible for making same sex activity legal. Much remains to be done but it would have been in time I am sure and some measures were, probably are still in the pipeline to make this so... whether that continues should a nice tame, right wing, oppressive, pro capital, pro-US government come to power is debatable to say the least...

[tenni]

Oh, ...Bibedbud Gringos ;)..good points were made. I am wondering where people are getting their beliefs from? Have they been to Venezula and heard from the people or believing West statements? I am suspecting that Bibedbud has been in Venezula?

I just found an article about Switzerland and Corporate pay.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/should-canada-adopt-switzerlands-limits-on-corporate-pay/article9584121/

[BiDaveDtown]

Oh, ...Bibedbud deleted his interesting post 10. Gringos ;)..good points were made. I am wondering where people are getting their beliefs from? Have they been to Venezula and heard from the people or believing West statements? I am suspecting that Bibedbud has been in Venezula? I have been to Venezuela. If you are wealthy then you can live in luxury there. Otherwise you live in poverty and in a slum or shantytown. It is not a place that most people would choose to go on vacation, and under Chavez things did not actually get better for most people-especially the poor at all. BiBedBud is just an armchair internet Marxist, Socialist, or Communist much like a daft woman from Scotland who cannot do anything useful at all so she is a teacher. Post #10 is still there. That is the post where a Gringo from Canada calls other people who are from North America gringos.

[tenni]

Thanks bidave

It was post 11 that was deleted...Now how do you know that I am Gringo? I may be Inuit?...lol

[niftyshellshock]

It's interesting, and sad, seeing some of the opinions in this thread.

I'm Mexican, and I was born and raised under a socialist country. Everyone wants to be like omg yay leftist socialism yayyyy happiness, and I can tell you that it is happy...in paper. Disappearances, state-run media, persecution of dissidents, "free" elections that oddly ended with the same party being voted back into power. Venezuela under Chavez was cut from this same cloth. I'm friends with Venezuelans and the general reaction is "ding dong, the witch is dead!"

There's talk about him being elected in "free" elections.

This is actually not very hard to do. All you need is total control of the legislative, judicial, and executive branches of government and repress any media that paints you in a negative light. After that, even someone running on a baby-hating, dog-killing platform could win in landslides. Velorex, Jamie, BiDavetown all hit the nail on the head.

You talk about how bad things were before Chavez? Here's the thing, Bibed, if before Chavez, you're getting beat to death slowly and during Chavez your throat is being slit, you're still getting killed. Or on a more board-appropriate analogy, under Chavez, you're still get fucked in the ass but you might get a reacharound if you're lucky.

I say this as a left-leaning Latino who knows dictators when he sees them.

[kidgloves12]

Dave,

Socialism is "communism" for the lazy. I wish I could remember the wise man who is responsible for this quote.




Chavez was a buffoon and a nasty man and so are all of his supporters. What's even more hilarious than the idiots here who think that Socialism, Marxism, and Communism actually work and have the pipe dream that they will work is a Canadian calling someone else from North America a gringo. :rolleyes: Chavez did nothing to uplift the poverty of Venezuela, and yes Chavez was a dictator who killed his own people and rigged his own elections while stealing billions in money from his own people he was claiming to "help". He also supported the genocide of bisexual and gay men in Iran by supporting Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

[darkeyes]

I have been to Venezuela. If you are wealthy then you can live in luxury there. Otherwise you live in poverty and in a slum or shantytown. It is not a place that most people would choose to go on vacation, and under Chavez things did not actually get better for most people-especially the poor at all. BiBedBud is just an armchair internet Marxist, Socialist, or Communist much like a daft woman from Scotland who cannot do anything useful at all so she is a teacher. Post #10 is still there. That is the post where a Gringo from Canada calls other people who are from North America gringos.
Have u really? I've been to the moon u know... the man up ther is ver nice and the cheese is red cheddar... amazing how red looks white from down here...:)

[BiDaveDtown]

Chavez helped a lot of people. He helped them die by starvation.

[kidgloves12]

Drew,

If you believe "Hollywood" fiction, then you aren't as smart I as you think you are. If "appreciation" means "looking away" as some "rulers" commits evil on others that "you" deem appropriate. Wait while those same "those same" thoughts invade Canada and see how that works for you. The " devil" in the gates, and you can't see them? But you respect "him". I like you Drew but when you say stupid thoughts, I will answer them. Take my advice, look all around, things aren't the way you view them.



I am not a fan of the far left (or the far right), but after reading "The Motorcycle Diaries" (the memoir of Che Guevara), I gained an appreciation for where atin America's left is coming from. There has been a LOT of almost unbelievable injustice done in Central and South America in the name of capitalism and a lot of sputtering, failed attempts at democracy which have tainted it. If I had witnessed much of the same injustice that Guevara and others did, I just might have considered socialism/communism too. It is sort of the same thing with Mandela, who flirted with communism when he was young - can you blame him when apartheid was done under the name of democracy?

Having said that though, it is nice to see true democracy having taken hold in Brazil and Argentina (as large-scale examples) after several failed attempts. There is still much injustice in Latin American democracies but much less than there was.

So I am no huge Chavez fan and don't share many of his beliefs, BUT I respect him for his skills and his different point of view.

- Drew :paw:

[Brian]

Drew,

If you believe "Hollywood" fiction, then you aren't as smart I as you think you are. If "appreciation" means "looking away" as some "rulers" commits evil on others that "you" deem appropriate. Wait while those same "those same" thoughts invade Canada and see how that works for you. The " devil" in the gates, and you can't see them? But you respect "him". I like you Drew but when you say stupid thoughts, I will answer them. Take my advice, look all around, things aren't the way you view them.

"Okay," if "you" say "so".

- D"re"w :paw:

[niftyshellshock]

Another point -- Che Guevara was a murderer, just as much as Reagan and Ford were.

[jamieknyc]

People have a certain amount of skepticism about claims that Chavez made the trains run on time. However, you can't judge by the opinions of people who left the country.

[VZR1800]

Sinner, no doubt. AndI have been boycotting Citgo gas stations for a long time as they are owned by the Venezuelan government.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/citgo.asp

[matutum]

don't forget all the people who died during Clinton:Brown,Chandra Levy,there is quite a list under every president.Viet nam was a way to kill of our young men.For what? Just because the govt said we must fight these commies!and the sheep followed,,,,,,,:yikes2:

[1bimmwis]

He was another in a long line of socialist dictators in South America. The remarkable thing about them all is how they sell mediocrity for all as progress. For those who agree with the socialist approach, I suggest an examination of who controls government, property, and an individual's right to decide how they want to live. By the way, is there an active bi-sexual community in Venezuala?