Predators--the dark side of it all [Archive]

Apleasureseeker

Jun 16, 2005, 12:55 AM

When I was just our of school, I had a girlfriend who was wild, kinky & bisexual. She also suffered from some serious emotional problems. She once described her first girl-girl encounter. She described it in a way that made it sound hot & sexy, a la Penthouse letters, but the facts were: A woman held her down & forced her till she came, & then told her that the orgasm proved she was gay, or at least very bi. The woman was very kind & supportive to her, but the fact still remained that she was forced--raped. She insited it wasn't like that & that if she hadn't been forced she wouldn't have known about herself, but that's really brainwashing. I don't know if her "sexual awakening" was responsible for her mental problems, but since then I've met a number of women & men, bi & gay, who were forced into their first time, but accepted it, either believing that since it felt good it had to be OK, or surrendered to the belief that they must have deserved what happened.

There are predators out there, and it worries me. The female ones worry me more than the male ones do, because I think that women are more likely to surrender to a woman who takes control, makes it seem like a "girls' secret", or follows it up with affection & support. Especially since we live in an age of "lesbian chic."

Don't get me wrong, Dominance & force-fantasies are the stuff that wet dreams are made of, and I'm as much a fan of bondage & role play as anyone, but it has to be consensual BEFORE it starts!

What're your thoughts?

jamie63

Jun 16, 2005, 8:33 AM

:rolleyes:
Hi !

I can only say that my 1st time was entirely voluntary - LOL!

I found a friendly bi-couple over in wantage, just outside oxford, and it was mind blowing to say the least! It was an extremely enjoyable event for the 3 of us, and i have not looked back!

We started out by making contact first thru a contact magazine, and got to know each other thru letters & phone chats, then eventually (after a year0, i finally got to meet up with them - it seemed like i was meeting old friends & they felt the same. I still stay in contact with them to this day, and we have some great chats.

There was no pressure for any party, neither was anyone forced into it. If any of us had been, then i would have walked away there and then. It should be something that all involved want to try/do, and above all - it has to be fun!

jamie63

:rolleyes:

youngrest

Jun 17, 2005, 10:53 AM

I have often considered this since my college days.

A friend of mine was sure I was gay. He wanted to "prove" it. He wanted, at all costs (of our friendship, of my current straight relationship, etc.) to out me. He came up with a way to do so. Needless to say, it didn't work. I'm not gay. I'm bi. I was committed at the time. I wasn't interested in him.

But the question "WHY?" remains...why would one want to hurt another to make themselves feel better. And this isn't the first instance I've heard of it. It exists all the time, everywhere.

It brings to mind the old saying, "Misery loves company." So, if you can be/are comfortable in your own sexual skin, you shouldn't be miserable. If your miserable in your current sexual state, there are tons of other problems to examine, rather than someone else's sexuality. And what makes somebody think that making someone else miserable will make them less so!? It's just such mis-guided reasoning and I wonder where it comes from!???

Any thoughts?
YR

WolffeWoman42

Jun 17, 2005, 12:38 PM

Good morning, Gentlemen,

This thread intrigued me. Being forced or pressured into your "first" time of sex -- whether it's straight, gay or bi -- is pretty common. Fear of the unknown is very powerful. Couple this with anxiety regarding religious or societal taboos. Not everyone can freely accept their sexuality, whatever it may be. But once the door is opened, it is very liberating.

Rape is a different ball game altogether that has nothing to do with sex it is power and this kind of power has nothing to do with the Domination and submission lifestyle because that is an EXCHANGE of power. It's difficult to comprehend someone wanting to get whipped and someone wanting to whip them -- but under normal circumstances, it IS consensual. Each person fills the other's needs. No, I'm not involved in the lifestyle though I do enjoy certain aspects such as the exchange of power.

I'll try to be brief, but remember I'm a woman! hahaha I take taekwondo. When I walk into the dojo, I'm submitting myself into the care of the Master. I have trust and faith that as he pushes me to the limits of my body -- he KNOWS how far to go and will not "hurt" me or let me hurt myself. I'm not always happy when he pushes, but when I see the results, I know he KNEW better and really just took me through a barrier of fear that was holding me back from growing.

However, I absolutely agree with you. As in all things, there are predators and those who take too much pleasure in the humiliation, degredation and violation of another human being. You have to be careful.

Well, I guess you can now return to your regularly scheduled programming. :) Take care.

Dawn

Apleasureseeker

Jun 18, 2005, 12:18 AM

What with the current news about priests, boyscout leaders and whatnot, we're hearing plenty about non-consentual sex, but mostly just about male-male sex. The idea of women raping women is still too taboo, and so it has the kind of cover that priests had until recently. Another problem with sexual experience is that if it's forced on someone, whether is would be natural to them, or not, in normal circumstances, it's done and can't be taken back. There is an achingly fine line between something that someone enters into then regrets, which is no one's fault, and a situation where one is seduced or forced. That forced experience is going to send ripples down a person's emotional development for the rest of their life.

BTW, don't have all that much faith in your Sensei. I've been around martiual arts a long time, and I've seen some dangerously bad instructors with very loyal followings. It doesn't matter how many belts your teacher has, if he tells you to do something, and in your gut it feels wrong--RUN!
Same with Girlscout leaders, that single, glamourous woman next door who offers to help a young girl with her makeup, maybe that nun who wants one girl to stay after to clap erasers.
:eek:

Apleasureseeker

Jun 18, 2005, 12:30 AM

I have often considered this since my college days.

But the question "WHY?" remains...why would one want to hurt another to make themselves feel better. And this isn't the first instance I've heard of it. It exists all the time, everywhere.

Any thoughts?
YR

Could be a couple of reasons. First off, it's not uncommon for people to act out the crimes that have been commited against them. Abuse begets abuse.

For some there's a real power trip. Total control--being able to take someone & change their lives forever. Maybe do something hateful to them and tell them you did it for love, and get them to love you for it.

Stupidity. This is probably a biggie. People just think you really want it when you don't. Women get this all the time from guys, and usually, they guys don't mean badly, really. They just don't understand. (which is why women should loose the coy image and occasionally make their sexual interests clear. All the women I know say "a real man just knows when you want it." THEY DON'T!). No such thing as sexual telepathy, until you've been sleeping together a long time.

And, yeah, misery. Sometimes a crime really is a cry for help.

That's all i can think of.

WolffeWoman42

Jun 18, 2005, 11:02 AM

Hi Pleasureseeker,

I absolutely agree with you. You have to trust your gut instincts and yes, I have heard of and seen bad instructors. There are definitely mental vampires out there who will mess with the mind and control the individual. I'm thinking of the persuasive powers of Koresh, Jones, Hitler.
You make a valid point about women to women rape being taboo, aside from prison, I've never really considered it. It's like the old saying of a woman raping a man. If he gets an erection -- he's willing, right?
However, in hindsight, just because his body reacts doesn't mean his mind or soul consented to the act. So it stands to reason, a forced climax could be considered rape and by pushing someone to that limit it is wrong.
When I hear about a rape, it usually involves a woman attacked by a man. Again, I had never considered male/male rape outside of prison to be so predominant. But what do I know?
Where does flirting and seduction end and the "forcing" begin? Someone helping with make up can be a beautiful seduction and a way of opening a door -- now, I almost feel like a predator myself.
Yes there is a very fine line and it's up to each individual to know their limits. It's also up to the person they are with to respect where that line is drawn.
By the way, priests and boyscout leaders -- that is pedophilia and a different ball game, no? They are abusing children who have NO voice to consent.

Thanks for the great discussion. :)

Dawn

Apleasureseeker

Jun 18, 2005, 4:08 PM

Hi Pleasureseeker,
You make a valid point about women to women rape being taboo, aside from prison, I've never really considered it. It's like the old saying of a woman raping a man. If he gets an erection -- he's willing, right?
However, in hindsight, just because his body reacts doesn't mean his mind or soul consented to the act. So it stands to reason, a forced climax could be considered rape and by pushing someone to that limit it is wrong.
Dawn

A forced climax is definitely rape. It happened to me in college. After a party, i woke up to find a girl I knew sucking my cock. When she saw me awake she told me to just hold still. I liked it so far, and I tried to pull her into the bed with me, but she said "no, I jsut want to see." I told her to stop--I was pretty sleepy & hung over. She shushed me & leaned on my chest to keep me still. At that point I tried to push her off but she stroked faster & I came really hard & fell back a sleep. It didn't sound like much, but when I awake it was the most awful emotional feeling I'd had up to that point. Violation's no fun for anyone. I felt bad for weeks-insignificant. Oddly a few weeks later i ran into her again. I made some aggressive advances on her & we dated for several weeks. Turns out she wanted to be treated abusively during sex, due to a messed up childhood.

Where does flirting and seduction end and the "forcing" begin? Someone helping with make up can be a beautiful seduction and a way of opening a door -- now, I almost feel like a predator myself.
Dawn

I've known girls to be approached by women, and no matter how scared they are they don't do anything. Probably the same with boys & priests. A seducer has a responsibility to 1) avoid overly vulnerable girls, especially younger ones who will demurre to authority, and 2) TALK! Sweeping someone wordlessly into bed, before they've had a chance to think about what they're doing is highly irresponsible & potentially damaging. You gotta talk with your target first, or you make her a victim--even if it means she may say no.

Yes there is a very fine line and it's up to each individual to know their limits. It's also up to the person they are with to respect where that line is drawn.
By the way, priests and boyscout leaders -- that is pedophilia and a different ball game, no? They are abusing children who have NO voice to consent.
Thanks for the great discussion. :)
Dawn

It's a thin line, but not all that fine. Women are pretty well versed in knowing when to say no to a man, but not always to a woman, especially if it's a friend or if the advance is unexpected. Personally, i wish women would grow out of the desire to be swept off their feet, or to engage in sex with out the responsibility for themselves that comes from putting their desire into words. I feel that you should never have sex unless the other person asks, preferably with the word "SEX" in the question. Trouble is no matter how much the girl may want it, if it's phrased like that she'll usually say no.
It gets dangerous.

sensualforyou

Jun 21, 2005, 3:21 AM

Personally, i wish women would grow out of the desire to be swept off their feet, or to engage in sex with out the responsibility for themselves that comes from putting their desire into words. I feel that you should never have sex unless the other person asks, preferably with the word "SEX" in the question. Trouble is no matter how much the girl may want it, if it's phrased like that she'll usually say no.
It gets dangerous.

Hi all,

I think women just need to learn to say "no" & that's still a HUGE issue with a ton of females & even me at times & I'm much more secure & mature than I was when I was younger & couldn't say no.

I would never feel comfortable being asked to have sex. If the guy isn't intuitive enough to tell when I'm flirting with him or there is sexual chemistry, then he's probably not someone I want to have a relationship with & I'm way past having cheap casual sex.

As for women, b/c of my lack of experience, I find it really hard to tell when a woman is interested. Not that I find women to date daily LOL, but I've heard a lot of bi females state they can't tell either.

As for a couple of lesbians I've talked to in the last several months, I was shoked at how they just go around seducing females that are straight & think it's no biggie.

I just don't get it really. I mean I understand I shouldn't categorize a woman based on her sexuality, but I feel I shouldn't infringe on someone who is clearly straight.

Then again, a lot of people are bi & just won't admit it based on fear, but I am not here to force someone, yet these lesbians had long term relationships with these females.

Any thoughts?

Thanks & have a great week :)

Michelle

teraspecter

Jun 21, 2005, 9:27 AM

I think women just need to learn to say "no" & that's still a HUGE issue with a ton of females & even me at times & I'm much more secure & mature than I was when I was younger & couldn't say no.

Dammit...I'm really pissed because I typed a really long response to this and just lost it all. I'll try to recap the important points. Your statements got me really worked up.

You're basically proving the previous poster's point when you say you wouldn't feel comfortable being asked for sex. Because of the patriarchal society we live in, women -do- have this notion that they have to be swept off their feet. That a man should come along and read their minds and know exactly what they want and exactly what to say. Wake up. That's never going to happen. While you may be correct about women needing to learn to say no, I think a big part of that is learning to see past the bullshit of our dominant male, submissive female courting practices. You should tell a man you're interested in "Yes" for the same reason you'd tell a man you aren't interested in "No." - because one must speak up for themselves if they don't want to be taken advantage of.

I would never feel comfortable being asked to have sex. If the guy isn't intuitive enough to tell when I'm flirting with him or there is sexual chemistry, then he's probably not someone I want to have a relationship with & I'm way past having cheap casual sex.

Not only is that immature, not only are you probably counting out alot of great guys who simply don't want to do something they wo't be able to take back, but thats probably (singlehandedly) the biggest problem with all relationships today. It's a serious breakdown of communication. Why can't your knight in shining armor be one that asks you what you want? Wait till later for them to learn to read you. What the hell makes you think that him asking will kill the romance. More importantly, what makes you assume that the only situations where a man would ask would be casual and cheap?

I shoot from the hip and play it by ear alot of the time, and I always respect boundaries and limits and I stop if a woman says no, but the one's I've had the strongest feelings about, I waited a long time for and I asked. It's killed my chances a few times, but ultimately, a woman that doesn't respect open and honest communication is really just a game player that I don't want to be involved with.

I just don't get it really. I mean I understand I shouldn't categorize a woman based on her sexuality, but I feel I shouldn't infringe on someone who is clearly straight.

Lastly, in a world where women - and hell, people in general - didn't have problems with being asked what they wanted or honestly answering, then noone would ever be infringed upon. People would honestly say whether or not they were interested and that would be that.

Sorry if this comes off as offensive, but I think you've got alittle bit more maturin' to do.

allbimyself

Jun 21, 2005, 4:45 PM

Sorry, sensual, but I got to agree with specter here.

On one hand you want the guy to intuitively know what you want, and on the other you say you have a hard time picking up signals from women. What the hell makes you think that guys have an easier time picking it up than you?

Honestly, it's the person sending the signal, not the person receiving it that has the problem.

I know plenty of people, both male and female, that have no problem picking up "the signal" from men. Very few I know, male or female, have an easy time picking it up from women.

Soem fems seem to have this need to make the other person "work for it" because they don't want to seem easy or a slut. You know what? That's complete BS. Very few guys I know would think that. A woman that asks or isn't overly subtle is a turn on.

Apleasureseeker

Jun 22, 2005, 12:26 AM

Hi all,

I think women just need to learn to say "no" & that's still a HUGE issue with a ton of females & even me at times & I'm much more secure & mature than I was when I was younger & couldn't say no.

I would never feel comfortable being asked to have sex. If the guy isn't intuitive enough to tell when I'm flirting with him or there is sexual chemistry, then he's probably not someone I want to have a relationship with & I'm way past having cheap casual sex.

Michelle

Hi Michelle,
Thanks for the very honest input. What you describe is the common female attitude, and as you can see, it drives us guys crazy. Seems society allows & even encourages women to not take responsibility for their own actions. This is most flagrant in the area of sex, where responsibility is most important. Honestly,were the guys you've been with really that intuitive, or were they just agressive at the right time? Could you intuit if he had a disease? Communication is really important. (I don't mean to get on your case, BTW). Far too many women are allowed to get away with making descisions based on what makes them feel comfortable, which is a child's criteria. I believe women are more capable.

As for women, b/c of my lack of experience, I find it really hard to tell when a woman is interested. Not that I find women to date daily LOL, but I've heard a lot of bi females state they can't tell either.
Michelle

Kinda makes sense, though. (can't rely on intuition!!) You could wear some discreet gay jewelry when you want to be noticed.

As for a couple of lesbians I've talked to in the last several months, I was shoked at how they just go around seducing females that are straight & think it's no biggie.

I just don't get it really. I mean I understand I shouldn't categorize a woman based on her sexuality, but I feel I shouldn't infringe on someone who is clearly straight.
Michelle

Perhaps women who are still not fully accepting of themselves, and they need to prove something.

Then again, a lot of people are bi & just won't admit it based on fear, but I am not here to force someone, yet these lesbians had long term relationships with these females.
Michelle

Some may be scared, some just dabbling, some however, may have been emotionally vulnerable and just needed the relationship more than the gender. Think of all the reasons--right & wrong--that women have to connect with men.

Thanks again! your honesty is appreciated! (and good luck finding girls!)

sensualforyou

Jul 1, 2005, 2:58 AM

Well, I see I got a few people pissed off, but that's ok. I'm speaking about how I feel & I expect people to understand that. If they don't, that is their issue.

Honesty is my middle name btw Apleasureseeker :)

I totally get where I was misunderstood here. I do feel sorry for males & have stated this many times over in the course of the last few years.

A lot of men are confused about what their role is in our society.

I am not like other females, far from it.

I'm not holding back b/c I want to make the guy work for it, but then again, not rushing into everything all at once makes it all that much sweeter & for the most part really good lovers know that.

Teasing is a fabulous foreplay.

As much as I'm a very strong woman, I'm still somewhat submissive in bed or around men when it comes to being courted.

It has nothing to do w/ society & has everything to do with how I feel.

On the other hand, I'm a lot more comfortable & sometimes aggressive with a man once I get to know him & have already been intimate w/ him once or twice & know he's a good lover & enjoy being with him.

I've had to learn that if I want a woman, I'll most probably have to get more assertive & play the male role & yes it's hard, but hey, males have been playing it for ages. Why all of a sudden just b/c women are working & suddenly have a brain should this courting stop?

Courting? LOL, where do I even find a man who knows how to court?

Most don't & yes, having someone ask me if I want to kiss him or sleep with him does turn me off, unless he's doing it in a very seductive way & I'm very open about how I'm feeling towards a guy. If I'm turned on, I will start flirting & if he doesn't get that, then he needs to learn how to tell when a woman is flirting. The only reason I can't tell when it comes to women is b/c I don't have enough experience. I'm assuming (I could be wrong) that all of you are over 30 y/o & by now should know when a woman is flirting.

When I say I want an intuitive man, I mean it. I don't mean just sexually, I mean overall. It's not about him reading my mind & me not communicating. Although my communication skills aren't even close to being perfect, I am above average in my communication skills, but what society fails to mention is that words are not the only means of communication.

What a person doesn't say is just as important as what he does say.

Looking at a person's body language is crucial to reading what they really mean.

Sensing & feeling a person's energy is also very important as well as verbal communication.

Where I fail in being able to read people is when they are lying & very good at it, or they close themselves off. I tell people they can open up to me, but whether they do or not just takes time while getting to know them & being in a relationship w/ them.

Just b/c a lot of people don't understand this method of communication doesn't mean it doesn't exist & that is what I was referring to & yes, I have had many males understand when I was interested & when I wasn't. There were also times when I wasn't so interested (a while back now) & he was more assertive & I let something unfold & he was a great lover, but then was terrible outside the bedroom. Finding the 2 together proves difficult for me.

I totally believe in communication thru & thru, as us poly people use that as our slogan LOL, but at the same time, if I have to say every little thing to my partner b/c he/she just doesn't get me & is able to read me, chances are we are not compatible. For me communication should flow most of the time & shouldn't be such a struggle. Yes there are difficult times, but as we trust, we open up more.

I also get that you are probably talking about when you are first dating & not when you are already in a relationship.

I even had one person I got along with really well outside the bedroom, but I wasn't attracted to him for some reason & that concerned me & YES, I did mention it & we discussed it.

I was sensing something & realized as time went on that his sexual insecurities were turning me off. When I tried to give it a wirl anyway, my intuition was correct, he couldn't kiss well & that totally turned me off.

A lot of times people allow their sexual insecurities to overpower themselves so that they lose focus & it doesn't flow. It's at that point that I get confused & I can't figure out if I'm interested, not interested etc.

Then again, if a guy can't tell when a woman is kissing him passionately & when she's resisting, or when she is wet or not wet, then he has to go back to the lovemaking school he went to & ask for a refund LOL

Sorry, but this is a big issue for me & I'm not saying women are any better b/c most just follow their previous partner's leads & if a guy has never been kissed properly & vice versa, for him he may think she really is enjoying herself.

Sorry I'd love to chat more about this, but as you can see I'm very busy with work & don't get on here often.

Someone had PMed me, but the message got lost when Andrew changed over servers.

I have to get back to my work & addessing these personal e-mails & then go have my dubby & relax as it's late.

Have a great long wknd. guys & for such a long conversation I really prefer talking on the phone, as I don't like typing out tons of dialogue, having to proof it for grammer, etc. & now that I know the system can lose my post, I'll copy it to the clipboard b4hand.

If you ever want to get together on the phone, I'd love to talk about this stuff. I've been studying human behviour & sexuality for years. Not in school, but just learning on my own.

Later

Michelle

WolffeWoman42

Jul 1, 2005, 12:31 PM

Hi Michelle,

**applause, applause, applause** Welcome and Thank you for your eloquent words! I couldn’t have said it better. : )

My personal opinion is that society still frowns upon women that are sexually confident and assure of themselves. It saddens me that the double standard is still alive and well. Women who are aggressive, confident and assured with their sexuality have always been considered “fast” or some other derogative.

I have no trouble flirting with men and it’s simply natural to assume they want to get into your pants. Women are more cerebral and more challenging. Trying to figure out how to approach them is difficult. One might respond to words of love, roses and candlelight dinners. Another will respond to a cup of coffee and a movie, or an intense discussion. Though going up to a man and saying, “Wanna f**k?” might work, a woman wants to be “courted, wooed and seduced.”

There were a couple of points in this initial thread that seemed paramount to the discussion. You touched upon the fact that women should speak their minds. However, as I said, it seems as though we are damned if we do and damned if we don’t.

Forced orgasms which is rape, was another and it was stated that aggressive women preyed upon the weaker ones, seduced them, brought them to orgasm and then the “victim” was grateful for having a door opened to them. I replied that in a man’s case this could be true – simply because their bodies responded, didn’t mean they were consenting to the act.

Since that post, I’ve done some thinking and reading of responses. I can’t speak for all women, Michelle, perhaps you can help me out here . . . a woman’s orgasm and a man’s are very different. Men are visual, women are cerebral. In order to have an orgasm, we need mental stimulation in addition to the visual and physical attention. Perhaps I’m wrong, and I do apologize if I am – I simply think for a woman to have the orgasm, she has to be willing because there are so many levels simultaneously at work.

Apleasureseeker, you stated how after your abuse, you felt horrible etc., but then aggressively went out with the woman? Sorry, but if you felt so humiliated and used, why would YOU go after YOUR abuser for a relationship?

The third issue that was mentioned early in the thread is priests and boys, people in authority over young ones – as I’ve stated several times, that is pedophilia and has no barring on this discussion because children have no voice to consent to sexual activity.

The one thing I’ve learned in my search for a female companion is that sex isn’t all that important to me. Yes, sharing physical pleasure with another human being is a connection we all need, however, if I can’t have a decent conversation with the person afterwards, the “victory” is hollow. The sex is a doorway to the higher level of connection.

Have a great Canada Day, eh?! : )

Dawn

gayle

Jul 1, 2005, 5:30 PM

Dawn,
I have to disagree with your assertion that for women to have an orgasm, it is a matter of them being willing, of being consensual. Women can be forcefully brought to orgasm, just as men can. Orgasm is a physiological response.
I come from a background of childhood sexual abuse. I was raped for the first time at the age of 5. My attacker (a family member) raped me numerous times when I was between 5 and 13 years old. He knew how to cause me to have an orgasm. I didn't know the word for it (orgasm) but I knew he could cause me to have this good feeling. It was extremely confusing for me because I didn't want him touching me, yet he could bring about this response. Do you honestly want to tell me that at 5 years of age, I was genuinely capable of consenting to sex? And if so, how young would I have had to be in order to have been considered incapable of consenting to it? The attacks on me were all about power and domination. My attacker let me know that this was happening because he said it was what I wanted. Even though I said I didn't want it, he said I did. He was bigger than me, older than me, and I was taught to obey adults at any cost. This was long before the days when we started teaching our children about good and bad touches and telling them that nobody had the right to touch them in a way that made them feel bad.
I don't suppose it is terribly surprising that later, when I began having consensual sex, I found it very difficult to achieve orgasm. In fact, it was downright impossible for me to have an orgasm during sex or foreplay. I could achieve it only through masturbation. When I realized my partners were dissatisfied because I didn't cum, I began faking it. I didn't experience orgasm with any of my sexual partners until I met my bf. I'm not sure why I was finally able to achieve orgasm with him when I hadn't with anyone else. Perhaps it was skill on his part. Perhaps it was that we had been friends for many years before we became intimate. Maybe it was because, after years of repressing the memories of abuse, I had finally begun dealing with the years of sexual abuse in counseling. I suspect it was a combination of those factors.
My counselor surprised me early on by telling me that sexual predators are often skilled at causing their victims to experience pleasurable physiological responses (her way of saying "orgasm" without using that word). She finally stated outright that just because I had experienced orgasm during some of the attacks did not mean I had consented. She also pointed out that I was far too young to have given consent, both from a legal standpoint and also because I was too young to really know what I wanted. She also told me that such confusion, as what my attacker sowed in me by telling me that "this" (the attacks) was what I wanted and that I had "seduced" him, that I had probably ended up repressing my responses when I finally became sexually active (by consent).
I also disagree with the assertion that women need to start telling men (or other women) that they do or do not want sex. Honestly, does every man go around declaring to people that they want to have sex? I can't think of a single boyfriend that I've had who has just flat out told me he wanted to have sex with me. There was always some sort of a courtship that went on and a progression from kissing to fondling to sex (if we ever had sex). Frankly, I would have smacked any man who flat out asked me to have sex or to fuck. I am NOT saying that we should expect one another to be mindreaders and just "know" whether or not we desire to have sex. I'm just saying it's rather naive to say that we all need to walk around telling people "I want to have sex with you." I'm sure some people wouldn't mind being approached that way, but most people that I know prefer a far more subtle approach!
I am an adventurous lover and I have no problem letting my bf know when I am in the mood. I have no problem telling him when I enjoy something. Even though I am very comfortable having sex with him and letting him know I am in the mood, I cannot imagine me walking up to him and saying "Hey baby, let's fuck." Apparently there are those who would say I am failing to take responsibility for my sexuality because I am not going to approach a man in that way.
We all have our ways of communicating our sexual desires. Most of us would not want to have to tell our lover all the time the things we do or do not want done to us. Would anyone here really want to have to say "Kiss me. Touch me here, touch me there" every step of the way through sex? Geez, that'd be a real moodbreaker for me!
My policy is simply this: every act of intimacy (from kissing to intercourse) MUST BE CONSENSUAL and that any person (male or female) has the right to say NO at any time. NO ALWAYS MEANS NO!
As for the assertion that forced sexual acts opened up a whole new world of sexuality, such as for man on man or woman on woman sex, I've heard those comments before. Victims of forced sex who express some gratitude for the forced encounters strike me as being in denial about what has actually happened to them. It is as though they are, in effect, saying "I cannot accept that I was raped, therefore I will say that this act showed me that I can enjoy sex with people of the same sex." I'm not saying that victims cannot later genuinely enjoy man on man, woman on woman, or man & woman sex, but that to say the attack opened them up to that possibility smacks of denial of the significance of having been forced into a sexual act. Rather than justifying the actions of their assailant, the victim needs to say "What was done to me was wrong." It is my hope that each victim of sexual assault will find inner healing and peace.

WolffeWoman42

Jul 1, 2005, 9:20 PM

Hi Gayle,

I want to take everyone that preys on young children and lock them away. I, too was the victim of sexual abuse at the hands of my grandfather at the age of six. Yes, it is confusing because someone you trust does something you instinctively know isn’t right. To this day, I become infuriated at the words, “This is our little secret, okay?” In my message, I’ve been stating that those that do prey on children ARE pedophiles because a child CANNOT consent. Period.

In re-reading my paragraph . . . “Forced orgasms which is rape, was another and it was stated that aggressive women preyed upon the weaker ones, seduced them, brought them to orgasm and then the “victim” was grateful for having a door opened to them. I replied that in a man’s case this could be true – simply because their bodies responded, didn’t mean they were consenting to the act.” Even I became confused! I was stating that forced rape orgasm WAS possible for a man – simply because his body responded, didn’t mean that he consented.

I also go on to say, “I can’t speak for all women” and “Perhaps I’m wrong, and I do apologize if I am.” Thank you for providing a different perspective. I was liberated from my abuse with the death of my grandfather when I was twelve. However, I clearly remember after the first abuse and I had to ride back to the house on the back of his tractor – I wanted him dead. I dealt with a lot of guilt because of the act and the fact that I had such hatred for the man. Perhaps I’m lucky because I’d forgotten or repressed things. However, your shared experience reminded me and I have to agree it IS possible to force a woman to have orgasm and by that definition – as I said in a previous post “forced orgasm is rape."

I’ve also stated, as you did, in other posts that rape is about power, not about sex . . . and men and women were different in flirting techniques. “Though going up to a man and saying, “Wanna f**k?” might work, a woman wants to be “courted, wooed and seduced.”

Flirting and seduction is a way of expressing our sexual desires to another -- but EVERYONE has the responsibility of stating their true intentions and of accepting. I don't like mind games. If I think someone is interested, I'll investigate further, if they say no -- it ends. I expect the same kind of respect. I don't know, I feel like I'm getting confused and misconstrued by this discussion.

Bottom line, your policy SHOULD be the mantra of life. I absolutely agree with it and have said it many times. I would also like to include comprehensive and verbal agreement, ie this means children and animals, mentally incapacitated from any means . . . CANNOT consent.

Wishing you peace and joy, thank you for the enlightening perspective.

Take care,
Dawn

gayle

Jul 2, 2005, 5:05 AM

Dawn,
It appears that I misread/misunderstood part of what you had written earlier. I apologize for that. Obviously, this topic about sexual predators is a difficult one. Anyhow, I'm glad that it appears I did not offend or upset you in my response. I never intend to offend anyone, but I know that since I have such strong opinions on many issues, I do manage to offend people.
Revisiting my past history of longterm ongoing sexual abuse was and is a painful thing for me. My boyfriend only knows a few details about what I experienced. The most important detail I shared with him was the name of my abuser. He knows that the abuser is to be kept away from me at any cost. In the past few years, I have had to deal with violent thoughts when I have thought about my attacker.
Again, Dawn, thanks for not getting upset with me for misinterpreting what you had said. Obviously, this topic stirred up some deep emotions in me and I misinterpreted some of what you said.

WolffeWoman42

Jul 2, 2005, 11:30 AM

Gayle,

Thank you, but apologies aren't necessary. :) I completely understand your emotions. You should have seen me during a recent court verdict (involving an Entertainer accused of molestation). I get very passionate when it comes to predators taking the innocence of young children. Which is why I continued to state that the children could not consent and this was pedophilia.

Thank you for enlightening me with your words.

Take care,
Dawn

BiShadoman

Jul 3, 2005, 3:54 AM

Well, this is going to be my first post on this forum, I've been around a few months, first as a guest and then as a mamber for the last two months.
First off let me apologize to those that I offend as once I get going you will find me to be extremely opinionated and bullheaded, but I will never try to hurt you out of any malice.
To the point now-- Yes a man can be forced to orgasm even when he conciously is trying not to. I know this for a fact as I was raped and molested by a man (yes I am a Man) for over 2 1\2 yrs starting at the age of 10. Many of the things that he did to me were painful and some extremely so yet 99% of the time at least 1 orgasm was coaxed out of my body. And I always felt ashamed because I was told that since I was deriving pleasure for the act then it couldn't be wrong. No matter what I said or did, I couldn't make it stop. I got into alot of trouble, hoping to get sent away, but no one paid any attention until my actions escalated, (I never did anything physical to anyone else) as I was told that if I ever told anyone that they wouldn't believe me and then I would dissappear as well as a few other choice things That I won't go into at this time.
Any person that will actively go after a child , a child that they know is a child,(I'm not talking about a person that picks up someone when they are out at nite and later on finds out that the person that they were with was a minor), I'm talking about the sick f**k that manipulates, coaxs, and coerces a person that they know is a child into preforming and type of sexual activity, is a sexual predator and needs to be strung up by their genitals, flogged, and ultimately deprived of their life.
My sexuality was screwed up for a lot of years and I still deal with some problems every once in a while, but I finally realized that there was nothing that I did to cause it and I did all that I could to stop it even if what I did amounted to nothing.
The end result is you don't knowingly go after any person under the age of 18, If a person says no then you don't force the issue(unless this is a prearranged game that actually is consentual), no really does mean no, and if you are not sure if you are interpreting some signals the right way then open up your pie-hole and ASK!
And this is where I'm probably going to piss a few people off--People need to Stop using the fact that they were sexually abused as a child as an excuse to perpetrate sexual abuse and/or other criminal acts on society. OK, we were abused, but we know what is right and what is wrong, I am so sick of hearing that this person raped and killed another person but it really isn't his fault, he was raped and abused by so and so , that is such a crock of shit, I guarantee you that growing up I went thru more hell than most of these sociopaths can even imagine, and I don't blame any of my adult actions on what some sic f**k did to me 20-35 years ago, I have made alot of mistakes in my life as an adult but I am the one who made the choice to act a certain way after I turned 18, noone else made that choice for me so I and only I own it, as for the abuse that happened a person can either choose to deal with it in counseling, with friends and family support, or in a productive way of their choosing, and continue on with life because life does go on with you or without you or you can choose to stagnant in self pity and/or self loathing and continue to let some sic person control you and let life pass you by and never achieve any sembelance of true happiness
Sorry to take up so much time,God Bless all and to all GOODNITE!

Apleasureseeker

Jul 3, 2005, 5:18 AM

Hoo!
Looks like we've got some strong opinions here. I'll add a few, please know in advance my intention isn't to offend, and I won't be offended by any response.
So here are my points:

--Women & men aren't that differen't. We're all people. I'm happy to see that we all clearly understand that any human body can be made to orgasm willingly or otherwise. The first girlfriend I mentioned, described being held down, struggling & fighting, and the woman raping her had to work a long time to get her to come. After it all, she believed what her rapist told her--that the orgasm was proof that the rapist was right & hadn't actually raped her. Since thinking about this thread, I've noticed that women tend to be very vulnerable after sex, and often pick up my habits and opinions that they'd disagreed with before.

--Anybody can be forced to orgasm. Women don't NEED non-physical stimulation, but it helps. (besides, how do you stimulate someone cerebrally without talking?) I knew a girl who could be turned on by touching her wrists, or insteps--she'd lubricate immediately.

--My forced experience--the gal who forced me had been abused herself. She felf that force & humiliation were a show of affection. I tried to 'get even' through rough sex & humiliation, but that was what she needed!

--Responsibility. If a man is a date-rapist, and he dates a gal who is turned on by him & wants him, and he proceeds to initiate sex without communication, then, even though both parties are happy, the woman has reinforced to this guy that force is OK, because it's what she wanted at the time.
Sex is BOTH party's responsibility. The fact that you've accepted sex without talking first, and that both of you got what you wanted & nothing more or less is luck. What if he wants anal sex & you don't? What if you want foreplay and he doesn't? Sex should be a party--discuss what you're serving!
Talk.

Apleasureseeker

Jul 3, 2005, 5:26 AM

One more thought--lets not overdo the orgasm thing with girl-on-girl rape. The orgasm doesn't matter, except as a seduction tool & a way to get away with the crime. Unwilling force is still unwilling force. The problem is that the orgasm tricks the victim into believing that something else happened.

Mayalaen

Jul 3, 2005, 5:40 AM

The whole predator thing is just a nasty thing to deal with. It doesn't matter whether you orgasm or not... some of it still feels good... your body reacts no matter what is going on in your head... and you can't help it. That right there is enough to confuse the hell out of anybody!

The power that is stripped from you is enough to blow your mind, and the fact that you feel you can't do anything about it is enough to paralyze you.

I don't often like to think about this... but people have to know that it's not their fault. It's a sick mind fuck from (most of time) someone you least expect it.

I remember feeling totally helpless, not in control of anything, least of all my body. I still have moments when I don't feel in control of everything and it just throws me back to that whole thing all over again.

It's something that shakes you to the core and that I would never wish on anybody! People can do a lot of things to you, hurt you in so many ways... but I've yet to find one so all encompasing as rape/sexual abuse... to attack the mind and body at the same time... *shivers*

And then you've go the other mind fuck of hating the person so badly that you want them to die like you mentioned. Nobody should ever have to feel that kind of hatred! Nobody should ever have to feel that helpless and vulnerable!

Yeah... just reiterating what's already been said.... but so what... wanted to say it!

mike9753

Jul 3, 2005, 6:32 PM

Her is my two cents on this dificult topic.

Anyone who takes advantage of a peron's trust and innocence by sexually abising them is a criminal and should be removed permanently from society.

Obviously children are the most vulnerable and are hurt the most for the longest time. Their hurt not only affeects them, but it affects their families (who may or may not know that their child was abused), and it affect future generations.

In this world we need to trust others. Trust is a vital part of our lives and the inability to trust, coming from being abused is such a horrendous crime.

I have never been a capital punishment advocate, but in the case of sexual predators (of children), I can be easily swayed. Child sexual predators can and do abuse sometimes hundreds of children and so out of those kids who have been abuse, many may become abusers themselves. I don't know the statistics, but even if it's only a small handful - even if it's only one out of a hundred, it's too much. So the cycle continues.

Sorry, got carried away - but I do not exaggerate about the crime or the suitable punishment. I have more to say, but I'll let my thoughts percolate a bit and then respond to others.

Mike

Apleasureseeker

Jul 4, 2005, 3:03 PM

I'd kid of like to stay away from child predators, that 's a whole different ball of wax, and far less of a complicated issue. I'd been bothered by the idea of an adult forcing herself on another adult, and the way a little kindness after the attack can totally screw up the victim. I recently found a little interesting information about similar effects:

The stockholm effect--hostages taken and subjected to terrible threats or conditions in which they felt powerless, and then shown some small kindness or humanity oftend defended & in some cases even fell in love with their captors.

When police capture a dangerous suspect in a standoff situation, they charge down on him with lights & noise & overwhelm him & make him feel powerless. once he's totally overwhelmed, they threat him with calmness & quiet & he usually goes along gratefully.

The psychology behind these two things are related to certain hypnotic techniques--when the mind feels there's no way out it,and a suggestion, any small ray of hope or sense, is offered, that suggestion will be accepted passionately, and without question.

I find this really frightening stuff! If a rapist has a shred of humanity, and feels guilty afterward, the victim will reasonably hate him/her. If she's a psychopath who will show affection and support to the victim after, it seems like the victim will let 'em off the hook, and maybe blame themselves instead.

BiShadoman

Jul 4, 2005, 3:36 PM

Hey lets face it there are alot of sic people in this world and our judicial system while not perfect is the best one around and if we want to make it better then more than a few of us need to start making calls and writing lettersto the powers that be.
Rape is rape- it doesn't matter if it is a man on man, woman on woman, man on woman, or visa-versa. Just because an orgasm occurs does not justify the perpatrators actions, nor does it shift any responsibility to the victim. The victim has been violated both physically and mentally, except for in the most extreme cases the physical damage heals quickly, but the mental damage needs to be addressed thru some sort of counseling. I'm not saying tnat everyone needs to go to a professional psychologist but they need to talk to someone,- a friend,pastor,hotline worker,family member, just don't hold it inside of you or it can cause you many serious problems in dealing with everyday life. The most important thing is NOT to let this sic person steal your life from you.
Just an opinion from out of the Shados

Bum_Ditty

Jul 6, 2005, 1:42 AM

Rape is rape- it doesn't matter if it is a man on man, woman on woman, man on woman, or visa-versa. Just because an orgasm occurs does not justify the perpatrators actions, nor does it shift any responsibility to the victim. The victim has been violated both physically and mentally, except for in the most extreme cases the physical damage heals quickly, but the mental damage needs to be addressed thru some sort of counseling.

I attended a discussion at a local university a few years ago, at which rape was discussed. The discussion was moderated by several representatives from a local women's aid group, something to do with unplanned pregnancies.

Toward the end of the gathering, a man stood up and commented on the fact that no one had yet mentioned "the fact" (his exact words, not my textual voiceover) that women also force others to have sexual relations, and that such an act should be called rape as well.

He was not merely shouted down; he was rushed from the room and would likely have been severely beaten had not the campus police intervened. Every woman at the gathering, as far as I could tell, participated in the shoutdown and the rushing, and quite a few men as well.

This forum is, in fact, the first time that I have encountered actual dialogue between real persons about this issue in which it was not treated as a tawdry and ill-considered joke in very bad taste (or, as above, as an insult to society), not to mention the discussion being free of the all-too-common wisecracks and jeers about men wanting it and women being naturally promiscuous and thus unwilling to resist. Hats off to the debunkers!

I love this site...

Bum_Ditty

Mayalaen

Jul 6, 2005, 3:27 AM

He was not merely shouted down; he was rushed from the room and would likely have been severely beaten had not the campus police intervened. Every woman at the gathering, as far as I could tell, participated in the shoutdown and the rushing, and quite a few men as well.

Now that's just fucked up! These women have experienced it themselves, no? They should know it's not all just about the sex. They should know it's about the power, the control, the domination! How can someone have gone through that and not imagine it could happen the other way around.

Oh... people just aggravate me so much sometimes with their narrow-mindedness!! It's like people not believing that men can be the victim in a physically abusive relationship! PLEASE!! Get your heads out of the sand... men can have shit happen to them too!

BiShadoman

Jul 6, 2005, 1:49 PM

As for the women going after that man, many victims of rape,even after counseling, still do not grasp the fact that it is about power, they still see it as a sexual act and do not believe that a woman could perpetuate that type of an act on anyone.
Still other women hold a deep seated anger against all men because of what was done to them and that hatred can become an extremely destructive force to any person that crosses them in any way they deem as threatening, whether it is real or percieved.
Out of the Shados.

sensualforyou

Jul 9, 2005, 1:02 PM

Sorry to hear of your pain.

The only thing I'll disagree with, & this has nothing to do w/ sexual abuse, is that children are people too & they need to learn how to be responsible for their own actions just as any adult.

What irks me, is that society thinks we have to coddle kids & protect them from their own actions & what's worse, take responsibility for their actions as if we own them. Or, you will often see adults speaking to the parents about something they don't like about the children, instead of speaking to the kids themselves as if they are invisible.

Magically at the age of 18 one doesn't become (poof) responsible.

In fact, most adults I know don't take responsibility for their actions much less understand them & one of the reasons for that is b/c we teach children that they are not really human b/c they are too young. That's why you felt you couldn't go tell anyone about your pain b/c that message (whether overtyly or inadvertanly) is put out there, that children are still supposed to be seen & not heard.

In fact it's so well known in the alternative way of parenting that children have their personality/patterns set so young, that one alternative school I tried to get my son into stops teaching children how to be responsible by age 6. So, unfortunately he wasn't able to go.

Just thought I'd clear things up, but I know where you were coming from.

All the best

Michelle

I have made alot of mistakes in my life as an adult but I am the one who made the choice to act a certain way after I turned 18

sensualforyou

Jul 9, 2005, 1:14 PM

Geeze, that's nuts about him having to have protection from the people there.

When I first started online back in '98, I came across a man who was trying to bring awareness to the fact that men are abused by women all the time.

The statistics aren't as high as w/ women being abused, but it was something like 20-25% & that was obviously several years ago.

I don't recolect getting into the discussion about whether it was just physical abuse or sexual abuse as well.

It's all kept hush hush b/c so many men don't report it since men are supposed to be the strong one who should be able to fight any weak female off plus a lot of guys would probably look at them like they are screwed for not wanting free sex.

Remember, society didn't even really start talking about women being abused until after the OJ trial & that was only 10 yrs. ago.

Michelle

Toward the end of the gathering, a man stood up and commented on the fact that no one had yet mentioned "the fact" (his exact words, not my textual voiceover) that women also force others to have sexual relations, and that such an act should be called rape as well.

He was not merely shouted down; he was rushed from the room and would likely have been severely beaten had not the campus police intervened. Every woman at the gathering, as far as I could tell, participated in the shoutdown and the rushing, and quite a few men as well.

Apleasureseeker

Jul 9, 2005, 2:40 PM

While I do feel that people are just people, regardless of gender (or preference), there are some differences in behaviour between men & women (OK, I know it's a generalization, but I'm being general), and one of them is that women tend to function in a pack mentality. Women's advertising is based on this. Women tend to like to go along with the group, and women want the group to support them. This is one of the reasons you can change women's fashions every season. Women see, & want to be a part. (Men are much more difficult to motivate this way--there are some men who only just noticed that top hats are out of fashion).

I know women who tell me that women stick together to protect each other, which is the weirdest & most transparent rationalization, because within the same group of women the amount of infighting is usually incredible.

So I'm not at all surprised that the man would be shouted out by bringing up the subject. To maintain the front of solidarity, you can't show the holes.

This was what's bothered me about the whole lesbian rape issue: women who used that weird female bonding to dupe the victim into believing that she was a willing participant. Rape is a power issue, for sure, but for men it's the power of the man over the woman physically, for female rapists its more of an issue of controlling the victim's life, it seems. And if a woman rapist has a peer group to back her up, I'd be willing to bet that the victim would even believe she asked for it.

I'm always impressed by independant women, that is, women who remain independant from the opinions & cliques & social pressures of other women, because they'ew so rare.

Apleasureseeker

Jul 9, 2005, 3:01 PM

Remember, society didn't even really start talking about women being abused until after the OJ trial & that was only 10 yrs. ago.

Michelle

Hey Michelle,
I think you were right on about a lot of the stuff you said. Only thing I disagree with is the OJ comment. The womens' righgts movment first brought out alot of this in the 70s. I the late 80s & 90s there was a more conservative mindset that started turning back a lot of the equal rights stuff that had been accepted before. OJ sensationalized a lot of it & brought it back into the public eye, but the attitudes still aren't as equal for women as they were when I was a kid.

sensualforyou

Jul 10, 2005, 11:17 AM

I know women who tell me that women stick together to protect each other, which is the weirdest & most transparent rationalization, because within the same group of women the amount of infighting is usually incredible.

Yes, I only figured this out several years ago.

No, I wasn't born under a rock, but I never resonated with women that much b/c of what happened to me as a child. So, it amazed me when I figured out women do more harm to themselves than sometimes men do.

I'm always impressed by independant women, that is, women who remain independant from the opinions & cliques & social pressures of other women, because they'ew so rare.

Agreed & I hope one day I will find my female soulmate :)

Michelle

sensualforyou

Jul 10, 2005, 11:24 AM

Oh I know it was brought out b4, but IMO the only way to move forward, is to bring it to mainstream consciousness.

If only women were talking about it & only in select groups, it wasn't being REALLY vocalized IMO.

So are you saying that you believe women had more rights in the 70's than now? How old are you now?

For me I'm just independent by nature. I've never thought of myself as any different from a man, other than the obvious differences.

In fact, I care more about finding very intelligent spiritually conscious people (both males & females) to be friends with & also have intimate partnerships with, so segragating based on gender doesn't matter b/c it's hard for me to find such types period. :)

I don't consider myself to be a feminist, rather a humanist.

We can't live with out men or women on this planet as that would throw a HUGE imbalance into the mix. In fact in the States they have done studies that show that females are taking over males scholastically in grade & high school & this is worrying them b/c more males are turning to sports than concentrating on learning.

Thanks & have a great Sunday!

Michelle

Hey Michelle,
I think you were right on about a lot of the stuff you said. Only thing I disagree with is the OJ comment. The womens' righgts movment first brought out alot of this in the 70s. I the late 80s & 90s there was a more conservative mindset that started turning back a lot of the equal rights stuff that had been accepted before. OJ sensationalized a lot of it & brought it back into the public eye, but the attitudes still aren't as equal for women as they were when I was a kid.

Apleasureseeker

Jul 11, 2005, 1:12 AM

I'm 43! Women have a lot of rights, but in the last few years they've been lessened. The last decade has seen women's reproductive rights lessened considerably! There's more awareness of physical & mental abuse, and alot of legal ackowlegement of it, but interestingly, it usually is related to someone trying to win votes.

What's much worse is that the attitudes of many younger women is more complacent. They want the pat on the back & the Angelina Jolie kickass image, but they're less interested in real substance. They like the advantages and lack of responsibility a girl has with traditional, oldfashioned values.

bgall2777

Aug 25, 2005, 9:37 PM

Hello. I figured my question should go into this thread. I am bisexual but this question is actually related to a co-worker of mine. (Co-worker #1) She is a 30-something year old virgin who has never done anything sexually, even kissing, a guy. She was abused by her father (not sexually, but physically), when she was younger.

However, she is an extremely religious Rush Limbaugh-loving conservative.

However, point number 2, she looks like the stereotypical "butch" version of a lesbian or bisexual.

She said that she's never met any man that she's wanted to kiss. I'm 28 and find this so very unusual as most women I know (including myself) have been kissed by their early 20's at least and most, younger than that.

Another co-worker #2 and I think she's hiding behind her religion (Pentecostal) and that she's in extreme self-denial. Co-worker #1 is also very VERY defensive if I even make the slightest joke (just to test her) about anything gay or bi-sexual related.

Her mother is very narrow-minded as well and she has been living with her mother in a small community for many years, since her father died.

I have not told work about myself as I feel that I don't need to announce it.

Thoughts? Any advice?

Thanks!