Should I temp ban?

[Brian]

A couple of threads have gotten way out hand lately, and I have closed them and banned posters whom I noticed obviously broke the "don't attack the person" rule. But frankly, I feel like I am damned if do and damned if I don't. I don't have time to wade through all the posts and identify the real bad guys. If your comment catches my eye as an obvious one then I ban, whether you have 5 posts under your belt or 2500.

But the site does have the ability for me to issue temporary bans - 1 week, 2 weeks, etc... I generally don't use it because I think I did early on in the site's history and the person came back madder than ever with a clear intention of taking revenge on everyone especially me. The lesson I got from that is temp banning does not work. But maybe they were an exception.

So I am looking for input: Should I be temp banning? Do you think this will keep the site civil while giving people their "due diligence"/warning/second chance?

- Drew :paw:

[DuckiesDarling]

I just pm'd you my thoughts, Drew.

[tenni]

I know that some posters recently have made either direct physical threats or indirect threats recently. I am uncertain if physical threats clearly enough fall under rule 2 but it seems that it should be a violation of rules to to post that if X was near them that they would punch them in the nose..or told to stay in your own country etc. As far as I can tell three of them are still here while a long time member who got angry and posted a slur is gone. There seems to be an imbalance imo.

How you deal with posters who do not know how to discuss issues is a problem for genuine discussions. Posters who outright try to present themselves as something that they are not is less clear. When a poster is manipulating, lying etc. it is less clear how to call them on their BS. If you call them on their lies they merely dance around the issue. Some have difficulty dealing with the question/issue rather than the poster. (flame the issue not the person) Some try to use sarcasm and attempt to coat their flame in sugar (ie Why bless your heart) They are not being rude per sei though. I recently read on a different forum that people are not coming here because of a lot of old people arguing(which is different from debating) Clearly the view of a younger person..lol

Perhaps if there was a maximum number of times that a poster is permitted to post on a thread that might help. When posters post off topic and deviate the forum thread to their pet peeves, it seems to be counter productive to the purpose of a forum.

As far as temporary bans, it may help but a simple reason should be given for the ban. Otherwise how are they understand the reason for a ban to change their behaviour?

[csrakate]

I think a temporary ban could serve as a "cooling off" period for most people with good sense. For those who return intent on being a problem, you could use a "3 strikes you're out" approach . Unfortunately, some of the people you have banned in the past simply create a new persona and continue causing problems .

[BiDaveDtown]

No you should not do temp banning. The rules for this site are very well known and explicitly stated, and everyone knows that flaming people here is something that will get you banned whether they are new to the site or have been here for awhile.

[Realist]

As one who is "IN CHARGE" you are seriously in the middle of the storm!

Too many conflicting personalities can create ill feelings, as we've seen. I've witnessed religious, political, and personal ideals, beat to death, to infinity, it seems. Really? Is this the right place for those subjects?

Normally a live-and-let-live type of guy, I admit to getting irritated at some of the rants and, in my reply, over-stepped the rules, too. After self-checking, I've really tried to stay clear of friction and refrain from name-calling, since then.

If banned once, some folks will realize they screwed up and accept the temporary banning as a fair warning. But, as you mentioned, it might make them mad and they'll be bent on revenge.

I liked Kate's idea, about 3 strikes and you're out. Still, it'll take a lot of work on your part to catch it all.

Personally, I love the site and have made a few friends, too. I wouldn't be happy if I was banned for good!

I've learned my lesson and won't get into any more pissing contests!

[fredtyg]

I've learned my lesson and won't get into any more pissing contests!

I can't imagine Realist being even temporarily banned. Which makes the point that we all write something in haste every now and then. Warnings first, then consider bans. If someone is a complete dufus all the time, permanent ban. Seems to me it doesn't take much to figure out who the dufus types are for which warnings won't suffice.

[wanderingrichard]

Do what you must, Drew. You're ultimately in charge as the site owner/operator, and you did set the policies. Honestly you've been far more liberal and tolerant than some of the other sites across the web that i'm a member of.

I do have one request I'd like you to consider, which I'll PM you about later. Can't really function too well mentally right now due to being under the influence of some powerful pain meds.

[baachus]

Why not do both? If someone has had a history of being an ass, has ignored previous warnings, ban them permanently. If it's the first time someone has crossed the line then give them a 'time out'. The length can depend on the severity of the infraction. A pm with an explanation of the offense and should follow. The rules are quite evident and clear. There will always be those who want to push the limits, see what they can get away with. It doesn't matter how strict or liberal the rules. If they get pissed at you then screw 'em.

[_Joe_]

I used to Admin for a semi-popular gaming site years ago, and was always answering this question.

I found that I had to look at our forums from the standpoint that it's a swimming pool. Everyone knows someone's going to pee in the pool, but those people that get out of the pool before they pee into it shouldn't be allowed near the pool, otherwise everyone else is going to jump out of the pool.

I did warnings often, because everyone has an weird off day, and those that don't learn end up being the person that shits in the pool instead of pissing down the road.

[Annika L]

Hi Drew,

I can respect whatever decision you come to. It really is a weighing of what's worthwhile...and you're the only one with enough information about the pros and cons to make that decision (and the main one who will live with the consequences).

My only request would be that when you ban a person (temporary or otherwise) you tell them why. I have not been banned from any site before, but I know it would bug the hell out of me to not know for sure what I'd done. And I get the *impression* that *some* here have been banned and exactly that has happened: they don't know why, and are mystified. It seems like such mystification could encourage them to create another sign-on so they could ask about it...and then maybe think twice about the asking, and just keep the second (or 10th) signon.

[welickit]

Any ban will not work. They will just re-register under a different alias. If you seriously want to stop it...........make it a PAID, MEMBERS ONLY site.

I know the flames will fly now but fact is fact. FREE draws flys on shit....PAID draws those who have a respect and reason for being here. We let our paid membership lapse because we don't use the added benefits and the site is in a real down cycle. If the site was a paid membership only it would get rid of the trash immediately. Those who plead poverty would smoke and drink less and find the funds to remain. If you need big membership numbers then stay free, if you want a bisexual web site with a reputation of having fewer but quality members, go paid. Hard bullet to bite but fact is fact.

[elian]

Knowing that you don't have tons of time to monitor the site - generally speaking are are all supposed to be adults, I think one warning would be sufficient, if you can't keep yourself under control after that then you are fair game for permanent ban at the discretion of the management.

An amazing thing happened, I noticed certain threads in the forum getting extremely caustic, I had nothing more to contribute so I stopped reading them, no matter how many times they got bumped up to the top - my mental state improved tremendously.

[ZmbGirl]

If you're going to ban someone ban their IP address so they can't make another alias.

[12voltman59]

I know that one time recently I went beyond the bend and made a personal attack on someone--which Drew did let me know I had transgressed. I guess its human to do that once in awhile.

I know that my policy is now to perhaps express things in one single post--- in a strong and forceful manner and then just let it go at that and not continue to post up more things since I pretty much have said my piece on a subject--I do kind of get tired of the posts where it happens that everyone just keeps going round and round on some topic with no real consensus or resolution---I think that we need to just consider that when it comes to heated issues like politics and such--we should just make a post or two, making our views known---but realize that we are not likely to change the minds of others or they will change ours.

We should also accept and appreciate that we have such divergent positions among the members here on all kinds of issues and let it go at that. I do wish that we could at least come to a point where we can "agree that we disagree" on some topics.

As far as what to do in this case, Drew---I offer no suggestions--I am sure you will come up with something that is fair, right and proper.

[Long Duck Dong]

Drew, do what you feel, needs to be done..... a genuine person will respect your judgment call even if they do not agree with it.....

you stated this place is a place for all, to feel welcome and at home, a safe place from the maddening crowd of society..... and we came home and we were made to feel welcome and loved and appreciated.. and we laughed and joked and cried and giggled and groped and licked and.....you get the point.....

we started to share about being crossdressers, TV / TS / TG, cock lovers, intersexual, lovers of ladyboys, shemales, asexual natured, poly, open minded, LGBT supportive..... we felt like we belonged.....

where it went wrong, is that you did not stop the people that came into the site and started to dictate who was allowed to be in the site, who was bisexual enuf to be in the site, how trans were not bisexuals... and who was bisexual in that persons eyes..... and you let them take over the site and your dream and turn it into a nightmare for so many

you can temp ban people, drew... but you really should have protect the people that come here and are repeatedly told they are not welcome here... not by the trolls but from the members that are determined to turn bisexual.com into their bisexual utopia.... and you know who they are.... you have said no to their ideas and suggestions in the past and reinforced your stance by posting that bisexual.com is a open home site, just respect the differences of others.....

[chook]

Drew as you know I was one of the ones banned and you also know the reason I did what I did, and I'd like to thank you for unbanning me and I've been thinking long and hard and in my own opinion I think that somehow you should have moderators in the chatroom to keep some sort of sanity and if its at all possible every thread should be screened and the unsavoury ones dealt with even before they are aired that way all the forum experts with hundreds and thousands of posts behind their names cannot dictate or shove their opinions down other peoples throats as seems to be the case in a few of the touchy ones.......anyway as we say in OZ just my two bobs worth.

Cheers and thanks

Chook

[Brian]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I have been busy the last 24 hours, and will be for another half day. But I appreciate the feedback and will eventually reply.

- Drew :paw:

[rickoyler1969]

I think a one time temp ban would work, then monitor them, if it happens again, then a permanent ban is in order.

[gen11]

WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR OWN EMOTIONAL REACTIONS, not those who "cause" them. If what someone posts enrages me, my outrage is on MY tab, not the author's.

Of course this does not apply to public personal attack, which can be seen by others and influence their thinking about me to my disadvantage. There is no excuse for that.


RE MODERATORS: The very real danger is that moderators in the room will turn the booting/banning process into a narcissistic, pointey-headed personality contest, with moderators booting people they just don't like. Realize that anyone who wants to be a moderator probably wants power over others and to exercise it. Using room moderators immediately establishes a social pecking order. I've seen this happen on other sites with different, far-less-volatile purposes than a sex-themed site; and I've seen what's happening already on this site, both on the formum and in chat, with regard to personality chashes.

I like the three-strikes-and-you'e-out idea, plus NO strikes on returning on the attack. Ban or boot, let them back, they come back seeking revenge on you or a chatter/poster--and they're out permanently, ISP-banned, etc. for ever and always.

Controversy has benefits: It makes us think, and it shows us who are sane, and thinkers, and who are nutcases. And even nutcases have a place here as long as they don't do personal harm. We soon identify them and don't have to read their posts in the forum and can put them on ignore in chat -- refer to my opening comment.

[falcondfw]

Drew,
I am a web developer and have been a mod on several sites, so I think I can give you the voice of some experience.

1. We are all supposed to be adults and conduct ourselves in the appropriate fashion.
2. The rules are clearly posted and it is everyone's own reponsibility to know them and follow them at all times.
3. Sometimes, for whatever reason, people "lose their minds" and lose control.
4. Because of dynamic IP addresses with things like DSL service, unless you ban a range of IP addresses, there is always a way around a ban to create a new profile. And even if you do ban a range of addresses, there is no way to guarantee you will block the scofflaw or to guarantee that innocent people don't have IP addresses in that range.
5. Most people, if they try, can justify any kind of behavior and will do so and they will then make excuses for why they "lost it" and didn't follow the rules, instead of taking responsibility for their own actions.
6. In my experience, because of #5, short term bans had absolutely no effect on the person's behavior, except for the period of time they were actually banned.

In conclusion
-------------
1. Just you trying to moderate the forums by yourself is too much for any one person.
2. Do not temporarily ban people yourself, if you want to keep things a one-man show.

The solution I have seen work (mostly) :
1. Have 3 or 4 people, maybe more, you trust and designate them as moderators, to be on the forums during certain times of day and certain days of the week each (spread them out to cover all hours and all days).
2. Let people know who they are.
3. Grant them powers to warn, gag, and temp ban (but all long term and permanent bans must go through you).
4. institute the 3 strikes and you are out rule. 2 warnings, then a short term gag, then a short term ban, then a longer term ban, then SEE 'YA.

That is what I have seen mostly work. Good luck, Drew.

[_Joe_]

If you're going to ban someone ban their IP address so they can't make another alias.

It's too easy to make a new IP address or even spend a few minutes setting up proxy. Google and 5 minutes is all one needs to do this.

[darkeyes]

Drew,

1. Just you trying to moderate the forums by yourself is too much for any one person.
2. Do not temporarily ban people yourself, if you want to keep things a one-man show.

The solution I have seen work (mostly) :
1. Have 3 or 4 people, maybe more, you trust and designate them as moderators, to be on the forums during certain times of day and certain days of the week each (spread them out to cover all hours and all days).
2. Let people know who they are.
3. Grant them powers to warn, gag, and temp ban (but all long term and permanent bans must go through you).
4. institute the 3 strikes and you are out rule. 2 warnings, then a short term gag, then a short term ban, then a longer term ban, then SEE 'YA.

That is what I have seen mostly work. Good luck, Drew.
Now wy dusnt that fill me wiv confidence babes:eek2:? Suggest a wee look-see at Gen's post b4 this 1 is in order... wot u say? Wudn't b like that on .com:confused:??? Noooo.. not much.. every 1 luffs every1 an no 1 has faves...:yikes2:.. isn't that so?;)

[**BJ**]

That's a hard one to call Drew and I don't envy your position. Each and every one of us does things at one time or other that we regret. Doesn't make us a bad person, just a fallible human being. I would have to go with the "three strikes, you're out" scenario, but be careful of the occasional curve ball. Just my 2Cents.

[Sensualhunter]

If you're going to ban someone ban their IP address so they can't make another alias.

Yep.

It is amazing you are doing this all on your own. I was a moderator on a few other sites and it is a hard call sometimes. I do think falcondfw's idea of having 3-4 moderators is a good idea Drew. You know people that are here a lot and that you have read their posts, or seen them in chat and respect their handling of situations. You would have the final say on what happens, but they would be there to point out things that you might not see and give their opinion on what should happen. Temp ban is not a bad idea, but it is too hard for one person, (you), to deal with ending their ban or seeing if they FU again. You can also have them tagged with a watch tag. Like a red button next to their name, or post the word "watched" under their avi. You will know if someone complains about them that they were given a chance and now their chance is over. It can tend to make peeps behave if they know one more screw up and they are gone, ip and all.

My 2 cents

[swmnkdinthervr]

I think a "temp ban" would be a good option under certain circumstances but I probably wouldn't apply it in all cases. I can say this because I'm not having to deal with some of the stuff you do...well that and I'm not likely to get banned! :D

[pjlcjh1]

Maybe a temp ban warning the first offense...your outa here second offense. Hope this helps. It may be to much to keep up with, but this is a great website that does not need to be ruined by a few rude people ...good luck.

[elian]

Banning people by IP is not easy, a lot of residential ISPs use dynamic IP addresses that are assigned out of a large pool owned by the ISP so the individual may or may not be assigned the same public IP address over time. Or, you could prevent someone else who is legitimate from being able to access the service.

[ZmbGirl]

True...but they would at least have to put in some effort! :)

[NjbiGuy01]

I think a temporary ban could serve as a "cooling off" period for most people with good sense. For those who return intent on being a problem, you could use a "3 strikes you're out" approach . Unfortunately, some of the people you have banned in the past simply create a new persona and continue causing problems .

Totally agree .....

[Brian]

Thanks so much for the feedback everyone. So many good suggestions. I am going to implement two of them right away:

1. I am going to start using the banning system built into our software to "temp ban". That is, invoke a time out, when appropriate, as an alternative to an all or none ban. It won't be an official "Three Strikes" policy in that sometimes it will be one strike, sometimes 2, sometimes 3, depending on the severity of the rule violation. It will be "One, Two, or Three Strikes Policy" you could say.

Note that the rules haven't changed. It is not like I will suddenly be issuing time outs left and right. Generally, the same standards as before, but now a new tool for me beyond the two all-or-none, (1) Ignore, or (2) Ban Permanently, options I have been operating under.

2. Someone pointed out (to me privately I think) that even the phrase "temporary ban" is a bit loaded, and I think they are right. We should think of it as a forced "time out" and I have renamed the user title "Banned" to "Cooling Off" to reflect this. If you see a user's title as "Cooling Off" you know they have been either temporarily or permanently "banned". If it is a user who has been around for a while and the Cooling Off is temporary I will try to inform the site in the thread so people know it is just a temporary cooling off because of a rule violation.

I am not going to bring in other moderators at this time, although I agree that if it could be done right it could help. It is just that it is such a VERY, VERY difficult thing to implement properly. You real old timers might recall my attempt to do that on this site's predecessor, Bisexual Chat Network, about 10 years ago and it turned into a disaster with various cliques booting each other out.

By the way, generally I don't mind if permanently banned people come back with a new id under a different email address because often they change their ways when they do so. I am okay with that. There are some exceptions though, we have had a couple of real bad apples (literally, 2) over the years and if I discover they are back I just permanently ban them again with no thought to it all.

We'll see if this helps make the user experience here even better. Thanks again to everyone for all your help and support.

- Drew :paw:

[acscomps]

Like my Grandaughter, maybe they need to go "sit and watch"...lol

[Gleekybaby]

Right, Drew You Listen n Listen Good Hun!
Do as you feel You should Do, Or See Fit, If you want to Temp Ban Because US as Site members Cant keep to the Rules, Then by all means Temp ban our Arses! Would Serve us right!
Now i see what you said bout peeps coming back madder then ever after a temp ban, Well if they aren't adult enough to understand that they fucked up in the first place (excuse my language) then maybe they shouldn't be here??? and if they do get madder n madder and fuck up then Perm ban there arse, as i said, If we aren't Adult enough to take responsibility for our own mistakes, rudeness, fuck ups, rule breaking then we aren't adult enough to be on this site!!!

My Two Cents!!!!!

Drew Darling, Temp Ban those "Kids" who break the Rules. Maybe, Just Maybe in that "cool down" time they will Grow Up!!!!


Xoxoxoxxox Gleeky :shades:

[darkeyes]

Im glad this banning forever as a way of keeping "order" on site is finally recognised for what it was.. a waste of time... I have never liked permanent bans because whoever has the power to ban has as subjective a judgement as ne 1 else... he (or she) subjectively decides what is a bit off, and acts accordingly... I have never liked witch hunts and we have had several of those...in my view, some members have been booted who were far less deserving of receiving the ire of the owner than others involved in the same "scrap"...tho permanent ban remains an option I can live with suspensions, temp bans, cooling off or wotever u wanna call them.. I dont like the 3 strikes philosophy but will live with it for now... the acceptance of the difficulty of imposing permanent bans is recognised by Drew and his relaxed attitude to permanently banned members coming back with some other ID in reality means no one is (or can be) permanently excluded from site.. the difficulty.. no.. impossibility of policing that is something I'm afraid we shall have to live with.. and I'd rather live with it than not. Even if as happens, some of the worst of trollery and nastiness keeps coming back..

..and I'm glad the moderator option has been rejected..there exists some pretty different views on this site about many issues, and there exists some animosity between some people.. it is likely that the existence of such differences and animosity would manifest itself through moderators actions and personality issues and personal belief would be played out just as Drew has said they will.. and this will create even more animosity, divisiveness and disruption than already exists.. and increases the scope for witch hunts to be pursued....The owner would not only have to play an active role in being arbiter of disputes between members and being "God" to them, but also to the group of moderators however many they may be.. and 3 or 4, if he was to go down that route is nowhere near enough for a site which has largish numbers of members either in chat or contributing to forums throughout most of the 24 hour day. The more mods.. the more potential for strife!!!

[Erotinaughty]

I learned the hard way early in my management career, once you chastise a "problem-child," you have made an enemy who often comes back to get "evens." The lesson I learned was half-measures are counterproductive. Deliver maximum punishment right off the bat and be done with it. Everybody knows the rules around here. Another pertinent insight: A fuck-up will ALWAYS fuck-up again. You can take that one to the bank.

[Gearbox]

Getting a Mod maybe a very difficult thing to implement etc, but you already find it very difficult yourself moderating now. So no change on the difficulty there.
Somebody who's never heard of the site would be ideal. He/she could enforce the rules and interject when things go pear shaped. That is what's needed here IMO.
The 'temp ban/cooling off' thing sounds good, as it's not as severe as a 'permanent ban' and most likely issued out more readily to offenders, who'll take less offence.

As it is though, with a less than thorough moderating of threads, bitching, trolling, sniping, inciting, threatening, dramaqueening etc etc etc will be here forever.
What penalties you dish out, won't makeup for your lack of time to dish them to their full effect.
Unless the 'temp ban' thing will help you save time weighing up who gets penalised for what? That would make sense.lol

[falcondfw]

Gear,
lol. I haven't heard the expression "going pear shaped" since the last time I watched "The Thin Blue Line" with Rowan Atkinson. Hilarious show. Brings back good memories.

Fran,
Drew did not say the permanent ban was going away. Just that he did not mind if someone put in the effort to get around it by creating a new profile.

All,
While moderators can become cliquish, like members, moderators can work, especially if they need a 3/4 majority to do more than a gag.

[void()]

Ultimately Drew's site, his choice and I believe decision has been made.

This discussion, and closing of threads guides me to evaluate the policies personally used in social
engagement here and elsewhere. Hopefully, some may note some of my changes and see that they
are for the betterment of social engagement. Please do not take offense if use of canned responses
presents itself.

[darkeyes]

Fran,
Drew did not say the permanent ban was going away. Just that he did not mind if someone put in the effort to get around it by creating a new profile.


I kno wot 'e sed Babes... wot 'e actually sed wen telling us wot he wos gonna do wos...



By the way, generally I don't mind if permanently banned people come back with a new id under a different email address because often they change their ways when they do so. I am okay with that. There are some exceptions though, we have had a couple of real bad apples (literally, 2) over the years and if I discover they are back I just permanently ban them again with no thought to it all.



- Drew :paw:

Do read wot peeps say sometimes.. think tho, sum1 sed wot u sed Drew sed earlier in thread.. haven't checked.. might even have been Drew...:)

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Hon, you wield the power to ban or not to ban here. If the person is being obnoxious, threatening, crude, nasty, or an all around asshole to folks, then kick their lil asses to the curb and dont lose a wink of sleep over it. Its That simple. And in the same instance if a person keeps on attacking or singling out certain folks, then talk to that person and tell him, her, them that its time to knock it off and grow up, or face meeting the curb too. Its your call, Sugar. Dont be afraid to put your foot down on a few necks now and again. Some people here need it..:}
You da Man. Let it show..
Hugs Honey
Cat, mean person. ^..^

[CurEUs_Male]

Drew,
This is a tough call, as is banning. I think it is a good idea to use a 2 week first offense rule for 'minor' infractions. Double the suspension on second offense, but 3rd time, and major infractions be ones lifetime. That allows newbies to learn what is acceptable, but protects the rest of us.
Either way, it remains a judgement call, and you are the judge.
I support whichever decision you make
Al

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Put em on probation. Tell them that this is their "Time Out" but that the next time will be forever. Forget the 3 strikes idea. Why give them that much lee-way to keep on being an obnoxious jerk? Its just like with kids, Hon. Dont go doling out restrictions then letting them off after a day, put your foot down and enforce your rules. let folks see the cost of their actions.
As some good friends of mine always state:Choices are flexible--consequences are Not.
Cat

[jem_is_bi]

I like the idea that was proposed to limit how many replies can be posted to a single thread. My analysis of nasty out-of-control issues is that a few people get into a pissing contest and post and post and post against each other while all on-topic posts are totally ignored.
Unfortunately, most of these pissing contests are not at all entertaining.
Maybe we just need more entertaining nasty members that can artistically insult everyone?
I can handle being insulted if it is done well and illuminates my ignorance or arrogance.
In contrast, without a limited on the number of posts, discussions degenerate into a cycle of ignorant insults between a few individuals.
As an intellectual exercise it would be interesting to do a graphical analysis of members across all threads and classify them based on their statistical properties as graphical nodes.
Cyclic information flow in these graphs associated with specific nodes and edges constitute feedback loops that can and do become unstable and amplify noise and artifact. You can remove nodes (people) or attenuate (warn them) or cut edges (limit posts) to attenuate or break these (unavoidable) interaction loops.