What kind of person

[tenni]

What kind of a person wants to buy a gun?

I can see a farmer who lives on a farm wanting to buy a gun to deal with wild animals or putting ill animals down.

I can see a person who lives in an area where bears and other carnivores of a large scale that may wander into town wanting to buy a gun.

I can see a person who is serving in a country's militia wanting to buy a gun...or be given one paid for by his/her country.

I can see a hunter of animals wanting to buy a gun.

I can see certain athletes who use guns as part of their competition wanting to buy a gun.


As reasons are given, I see the following as increasingly less credible.

I can see a person who is terrified for their own safety wanting to buy a gun.
(I can not see that as a reason for many having justification for being given permission to buy a gun).

I can not see a person wanting a gun for practice shooting at a target as a valid reason to be given permission to buy a gun.

I do not see it as my right to own a gun regardless of any country's constitution. Anyone who does, has issues that suggest mental instablity....imo.

[LonelyLeo469]

Guns do not kill people. Bad People and Spouses that come home early do.

[Annika L]

Guns don't kill people...people kill people...which is much easier and less risky when using a gun.
Old age doesn't kill people...thin heart walls or thin blood vessel linings in the brain or a superfluity of cancer cells or any number of other things kill people...all of which are more likely in the elderly.

Tenni, I'm with you on fear not being a valid reason...really, it's not much of a reason to do *anything*. I feel for people who live in fear...but I don't fret over their rights.

But what's wrong with target practice?

And your last one just loses me completely: you believe a person is mentally unstable if they believe they have a right that is specified by their constitution? I can see thinking someone is unstable if they see a constitutional right as a mandate for action...but criticizing someone for believing something that is true is just irrational, and I have a hard time believing that you believe this (as opposed to saying it just to be provocative...or maybe saying it because you hadn't thought through just how ridiculous it is).

[Realist]

Subject: Makes you think


https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/525977_4025472402953_1425307641_n.jpg

[OverNeath]

As reasons are given, I see the following as increasingly less credible.

I can see a person who is terrified for their own safety wanting to buy a gun.
(I can not see that as a reason for many having justification for being given permission to buy a gun).

I can not see a person wanting a gun for practice shooting at a target as a valid reason to be given permission to buy a gun.

I do not see it as my right to own a gun regardless of any country's constitution. Anyone who does, has issues that suggest mental instablity....imo.

1.What is wrong with wanting to protect your family? What would you suggest as a solution for fear for you or your family? A baseball bat? A bow and arrow? A golf club? I own many firearms and yes with todays society, I sometimes fear for my family. I can and WILL protect them with violence,but, only if there is no other option.
2. There are MANY gun owner out there that only use their firearm for target practice. Many of the "athletes" you described do NOT hunt and only use their guns for target practice.
3. I respect YOUR right not to want to own a gun,but,Please respect MY right TO own a gun. My countries constitution provides for me to "keep and bear arms'
You will find that criminals that have the intent to commit crimes are the ones killing people. If guns are more srtictly regulated,only the people that abide laws and own guns legally,will be the ones hurt by any new laws. The criminals will still be able to get guns.

[Gearbox]

Realist, firearms are designed to cause harm to others. It has no place on that list. I'd much prefer a mentaly unstable psycho to enter a school with a baseball bat than be armed with a gun any day!

It's illegal to smoke in public enclosures in the UK, as it can cause harm to others. It's also illegal to carry knives, or anything that resembles a weapon especialy if there's suspiscion of it having the purpose of harming others.
A firearm?:eek: Fek me, you'd have a squat team after you in minutes (seen it happen with a starting pistol)! Because a firearm is a WEAPON, not a freedom or anything else!

Now why would anybody want to possess a weapon? To protect them from others who posses a weapon?
That's nuts! But it's made to seem appropriate in the USA, often with distorted statistics like that chart. It hides the lunacy that those outside it can see very clearly.:eek2:

[gen11]

tenni, stay in Canada, sweetie -- stay in Canada.

[Realist]

I'm not going to debate with anyone about gun issues, especially those of you who have been conditioned by your societies to give up your weapons. How quickly you forget how governments and criminals can take over your lives, or take your lives, after first removing your ability to fight them. Think of China, pre-WW II Europe, Russia, etc, etc.

I am a responsible citizen, served my country for 7 years and was honorably discharged, paid my taxes, earned my own way, and obey laws to the best of my ability. I feel I have earned the right to possess anything I want to buy, as long as I do it responsibly. Through hard work and planning ahead, I have come to an age where I can relax some, and enjoy the fruits of my labor...and that means I can have a street rod, a decent home, go fishing, hunting, and have what I need to protect myself and my loved ones.

The debate about weapons is never ending, but if you are ever are mugged, threatened, have your home invaded, don't worry, the police are only minutes away. Just call them (if you can) and they will do their best to come save you. I doubt, however, that the police can get there less than 5 minutes. In that length of time, a person without means of fighting back, can be decimated by whoever your adversary is.

I'm an old man, who has earned the right (by being a reasonable, law-abiding citizen, who is proficient with my weapons) to protect myself and my loved ones. I used to box, and was pretty fair at it, but no longer have that ability. I would be easy to defeat these days, by almost any means. But don't try it!

You, or anyone of your same ilk cannot convince me, no more than I can convince you, that your views are less viable than mine.

But, if your life has ever been in imminent danger, like mine has on two occasions, you'd be damned glad to have a weapon at hand and know how to use it responsibly and proficiently.

And that's all I'm gonna say about that!

[bl4aa]

Every country that has banned guns has fallen to the pray of its own government, criminals who still can get the guns or out side enemies.

You can give any one a gun and they can shoot it safely. You can never teach them in a timely manner to use the gun as a weapon to defend ones self or nation. All great military personnel have been raised with the natural use of guns for hunting and defense for as long as the US has been around. That number has declined significantly as more people live in the city. That is were statistically the largest area of criminal use of guns today. In a rural area one does not use them in fear of retaliation because they know that most everyone has guns and knows how to use them.

I some countries all people are thought about guns and how to use them and crime is dramatically low for those counties for the same reason you know you will be met with stiff and equal force.

The US in World War II was not considered for invasion by the Japanese because of the fear of not knowing were they would find resistance and not just from military because of privet gun ownership.

If you look at history every country that controls to much becomes corrupt and soon prays on its own people such as Germany with Hitler, Rush under Stolen and Cub under Fidel just to name a few.

When people have the basic ability to defend and take care of them selves the government and criminals fallow a whole set of different rules of which they know they are not the true control or have the right to tell others what to do.

I am not mentally ell and do believe it is you right to bear arms for hunting, protection and the enjoyment of practicing you skill for the day the God forbid you have to shot some one in defense of your self, family, home and country.

Those who use guns wrong are such a small small small percentage of one percent that you want all 99+ percent to be punished for a very few. Those are the ones that should be punished when they do wrong and severely. This world should not be for the few or the one but for everyone that does it right and no government should be telling them what they can and cannot do or have. That is what we all ran a way from to create the new Americas and even most the world went away from and is now trying to run back to is government that a so inefficient and corrupt I do not trust them for anything for everything they want. All the socialist feudalistic cosmetic and fascistic governments have fallen sooner or later because of there over reaching use of control and inefficacies. You want to trust them to give you power only when they thing you need it. That never happened in history and becomes the standard for power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[cannibal4]

If gun's kill, then spoons and forks make you fat!

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

lol If you had someone break into your house to cause you or a family member harm, you'd just go grab the trusty baseball bat or cricket paddle? Uh huh..riiiiight. I'd 100 times rather have a hand gun and not have to ever use it, than to Not have one in case something bad happens. And the only thing scarier than a frightened woman that doesnt know how to use the weapon properly, is one who Does, and who wouldnt blink twice at blowing some bastards head clean off if he threatened her children or grandchildren. Guess which one "I" am.....?
Mean Old Sick Cat

[Vuillardgr]

Here in Louisiana, people love guns so much you think some of them just may want to have sex with them. The other day, I saw a local news story where some idiot is afraid that someone wants to take his guns away, he decides now is his opportunity to by a high powered assault weapon because he feels since he wants it he should have it. Call me crazy but I doubt the second amendment envisioned that brand of weaponry. Why should someone guy's obsession with guns trump our right to be safe in public? That isn't fair.

Listen, I believe in people protecting their homes and families. Go take a regular shot gun and kill yourself a deer for the winter...but there is no justification for civilians to own assault weapons and high capacity magazines and DRUMS!!! There's no need for that! Also, many people carry /conceal permits. Yep, not too comfortable with that either. See, I don't want to get hit by bad guy bullets or good guy bullets either. Crossfire can happen. It happened when a cop was shooting a suspect in nyc who was shooting people on the street a few months back. So if I can happen with the cops, it can definitely happen with private citizens.

Love of guns + stand your ground laws+ rambo mentalities+ chickenshit ways to handle your problems = many more fucked up situations to come

It's not a question of if but when in this country.

[OverNeath]

I'm not going to debate with anyone about gun issues, especially those of you who have been conditioned by your societies to give up your weapons. How quickly you forget how governments and criminals can take over your lives, or take your lives, after first removing your ability to fight them. Think of China, pre-WW II Europe, Russia, etc, etc.

I am a responsible citizen, served my country for 7 years and was honorably discharged, paid my taxes, earned my own way, and obey laws to the best of my ability. I feel I have earned the right to possess anything I want to buy, as long as I do it responsibly. Through hard work and planning ahead, I have come to an age where I can relax some, and enjoy the fruits of my labor...and that means I can have a street rod, a decent home, go fishing, hunting, and have what I need to protect myself and my loved ones.

The debate about weapons is never ending, but if you are ever are mugged, threatened, have your home invaded, don't worry, the police are only minutes away. Just call them (if you can) and they will do their best to come save you. I doubt, however, that the police can get there less than 5 minutes. In that length of time, a person without means of fighting back, can be decimated by whoever your adversary is.

I'm an old man, who has earned the right (by being a reasonable, law-abiding citizen, who is proficient with my weapons) to protect myself and my loved ones. I used to box, and was pretty fair at it, but no longer have that ability. I would be easy to defeat these days, by almost any means. But don't try it!

You, or anyone of your same ilk cannot convince me, no more than I can convince you, that your views are less viable than mine.

But, if your life has ever been in imminent danger, like mine has on two occasions, you'd be damned glad to have a weapon at hand and know how to use it responsibly and proficiently.

And that's all I'm gonna say about that!

Amen Brother!!!



Love of guns + stand your ground laws+ rambo mentalities+ chickenshit ways to handle your problems = many more fucked up situations to come

Call me chickenshit if you want,but when someone breaks in my house to cause harm,THEY come out dead. Someone breaks in YOUR house to cause harm...YOU come out dead...Good luck with that

[tenni]

Annika
Why do people want to go practice shooting ranges? What are they practising for? (law enforcement?, Olympics, hunting? or fear of violence ?)

Yes, I know that my last point is a little grey but here I sit in a country with a constitution that respects the equal rights of minorities but has no provision for gun ownership as a right guaranteed in our constitution.

Perceptions on truth vary. Constitutions are made up by people and people have flaws. Constitutions should be living documents and evolve. This is not the same era that your constitution was written. Is it fear that makes the kind of person that believes that they need a right to a gun? Is the Culture of Violence so strong that you think it is not ridiculous if not cultural mental illness?


Gen . (off topic but)
I can go to more countries in the world than you are permitted to go to...and I have gone to countries that you were/ are not permitted to go to. In other words, bud....I’m have more freedoms than you in many areas...including basic gun ownership(although it is not a right).

Cat Dumpling ;)
Gun ownership is not easy to get here.There are flaws in our gun laws though imo. If I meet the standard test, I may have a hunting gun. I believe that there is a delay in when I may buy it and the ammunition. I believe that there is a limit to how many gun shells that I may own. I believe that automatic weapons of destruction are not permitted. I do not own or want to own a gun.

I have felt unsafe and no where in my mind did buying a gun to protect myself from someone breaking in to my house enter my mind or seem a rational choice. Since I have had my home violated more than once, I understand that fear but I do not think it a rationale belief to want to own a gun.

I do not understand your need and desire to buy guns.

OverNeath
"If guns are more strictly regulated,only the people that abide laws and own guns legally,will be the ones hurt by any new laws. The criminals will still be able to get guns".

Yes, with strict gun laws criminals will still be able to get guns. What can you do to stop that? That is perhaps a place to focus.

Criminals here can get guns. Where do they get them from? The USA and its gun laws that permit criminals to buy and smuggle export illegal guns to my country. (something like 80-90% of illegal guns in the hands of criminals are from the US) Circular isn't it?

I don't live on your street NearNeath. I sense from your post that you do live in fear of violence. I feel sorry for you.

[Vuillardgr]

Amen Brother!!!



Call me chickenshit if you want,but when someone breaks in my house to cause harm,THEY come out dead. Someone breaks in YOUR house to cause harm...YOU come out dead...Good luck with that


Overneath ,

When you read my post, you skipped the part where I said I was all for people protecting their homes and families. And when I said chickenshit, I meant people choosing to solve their problems by taking their hurt, anger , and frustration out on innocent people. IE mass shooting murderers and the George Zimmermans (The "Rambo Profiler") of the world. You have a right to protect your home and family but in my opinion no civilian has the right to own assault weapon stockpiles. All guns aren't equal. Civilian protection and hunting weapons for civilians...assault stuff for police and military. I think my stance is quite reasonable... When we ALL start to become reasonable , like those people in LA who decided to turn in their assault weapons at the buyback, we can begin to develop a system in which no one's basic rights are being denied, while we do away with mass killing machines on the street. Civilians are holding on to an ASSAULT WEAPON in a death grip...they have to ask themselves why. Two things you can do with it, go shoot targets and let off some aggression at a shooting range, which I don't understand....or go out in public and unleash hell on citizens when they have a bad day. That's it!! So therefore assault weapons aren't needed by citizens...period. Have a regular gun with a regular clip to protect your house..have that shotgun like my grandpa use to own to shoot a deer.... but that's it. That's more than enough.

[welickit]

Our laws were written when muskets were the gun of the day............not semi automatic assault weapons. I agree with the right to keep and bear arms but I see no need for the public to have access to assault weapons. As for the baseball bat...........you bring your bat and when I open fire see if you can hit the bullet back to me when you enter my house uninvited.

[OverNeath]

I don't live on your street NearNeath. I sense from your post that you do live in fear of violence. I feel sorry for you.

I live in fear of nothing. I am a firm believer in being prepared for the worst case scenario. I guess that comes from my years as a boy scout. In todays society that IS filled with lunatics,one would be crazy themselves NOT to be prepared to react to a life threatening situation.
I am a concealed carry permit. I carry everywhere I go,within the law. If you and I were in a store where a crazed drug addict came in to rob the store of it's money,would you prefer to be at the mercy of this addict or would you be happy someone was there to protect your life?

[Graywulf]

I disagree with your premise for the following reasons:
Police can not be everywhere for everyone, all the time. I believe that there is a valid reason for one to own a gun for self defense.
Anyone who owns a gun should practice at a range, proper use of a gun and knowing when and when not to use a firearm is very important to gun safety.
No one should assume that the "Government" is benevolent, not even the United States. A lesson learned the hard way by the Germans, particularly by the Jews during the nineteen
thirties during the Nazi regime. May I also add, the Nazis took over German, not by the use of the "gun", but by the use of the "ballot box". Soviet Union, came about the democratic
process of the masses taking over and replacing the government. Millions upon millions of persons, Jews and non Jews were slaughtered by the Soviets. Private ownership of firearms
by citizens is a good check and balance to the government that they live under. I will say this, if all firearms could be ban, that would be a wonderful thing, but that would mean the police, the militia and the United States government would have to give up their guns too. Not going to happen, so lets move on to what the real problem is.



by civilians

[welickit]

A permit to carry DOES NOT give you any right or authority to proclaim yourself a protector of others. I have been a master hunter safety instructor since 1974 and people like you are the ones who scare me. You think that permit makes you a GOD. Sooner or later someone will take your gun and shove it up your ass and pull the trigger. I am glad we don't shop where you do, we are certainly safer.

[Vuillardgr]

A permit to carry DOES NOT give you any right or authority to proclaim yourself a protector of others. I have been a master hunter safety instructor since 1974 and people like you are the ones who scare me. You think that permit makes you a GOD. Sooner or later someone will take your gun and shove it up your ass and pull the trigger. I am glad we don't shop where you do, we are certainly safer.

Exactly!! That's the mentality I'm talking about. Too many innocents get injured and killed by guys who think they can save the day with those concealed weapons. These incidents have to be brought to light. No one wants to be at the mercy of a bad guy, but I certainly don't want to die because a good guy thought it would be a good idea to shoot at a bad guy with innocents around.

[elian]

I don't have a problem with people owning guns as long as they have the proper training and the weapon is ALWAYS securely under their control.

When I was a kid growing up in a rural county school I was bullied like hell, a lot of kids in my school were, but we never thought seriously about picking up a gun to kill someone because we all knew what guns were for and it wasn't for boosting your ego. Teens had guns all the time, in the back of their trucks - which they were going to use after school either to shoot targets or go hunting for meat The teachers and administrators knew about it, and as long as you kept them properly legal for transport (re: unloaded, in a locked car with ammo in a separate location) they really didn't care.

I don't see the difference between "sport competition" and "target practice" - it's basically the same thing so I am not sure why the OP makes a distinction about that.

My parents tried to get me to buy a gun after 9/11 because they were feeling a little on edge.. I basically told them point blank, "I'm not scared." I don't need a gun to feel safe, we all gotta go sometime and universally? My life is just not that important to protect..frankly the sooner I get off this rock by legitimate means the better as far as I'm concerned. I don't consider suicide or the murder of innocent people "legitimate means" - those are the actions of a coward.

I could step off the curb and get hit by a bus tomorrow, when you gotta go, you gotta go.

Personally I am again, very tired of the polarization. You've got people buying up bullets like they're more valuable than gold .. (probably the same people who refuse to acknowledge Obama's Birth Cert even after it was produced for inspection in full form) as well as the people who have never seen a herd of deer completely decimate a farmer's corn crop in one week.

Just like any other technology a GUN can be used either for GOOD or EVIL, why do we have to get rid of the tool, instead of solving the ROOT PROBLEM?

Our society is sick in a much more fundamental way..we believe that above all else, the good of the individual (me) is better and more important than the good of the community. I do believe that if you succeed you should be rewarded but advertising and marketing have poisoned this country.. Social work is at the bottom of the esteem barrel, and as a result it gets very few resources..that is a huge mistake.

I really could give two shits about any celebrity on TV, I care a lot more about whether or not my neighbors are happy. Somehow people seem to not care so much about their neighbors anymore.

Before the automobile, internet and all that other crap you KNEW who your friends were, you KNEW who your neighbors were. You knew if they were struggling and you were part of a church or some other civic organization that could lend a hand, just enough to make sure people really didn't suffer. Now no one talks to their neighbors at all, they expect (and are encouraged to expect) that the government should act as an intermediary instead of direct involvement and action. In some respects that is helpful, in others very harmful.

As sensei used to say, you can't "block" a bullet but I'm pretty sure if you get rid of the gun a determined person will just find another way to inflict pain.

One of MLKs speeches was very painful to listen to - it's one of his last - commonly titled "Where do we go from here?" - it talks about the fact that even in the face of extreme violence we still cannot forget to face the world with compassion. I have said more than once that MLK knew Jesus was being more than altruistic when he said "Love your neighbor". I want my neighbor to have wealth, because if he doesn't have wealth he will steal. I want my neighbor to feel healthy, happy and loved, because if my neighbor is not happy then surely violence such as the violence we heard about in Sandy Hook will come.

Being altruistic is not just pretty words, it's one of the best forms of self-interest.

I hated listening to this, because it sounds a lot like advocating fascism and anarchy, which I am not in favor of - but the thing is - even though it is painful to listen to - he still has some points worth listening to..even 40 years later.. He revs up the emotions of the crowd but I guess I need to remember that at that time they were literally fighting for their lives and a better future.. I am just as passionate about LGBT rights..

http://vimeo.com/11154217

[jem_is_bi]

When, I was in college in 1968, a friend that owed me money gave me a 22 caliber rifle as payment. I used it to target shoot for over 10 years mostly at a relative’s farm in the thumb region of Michigan. I still have the gun, but not the interest to target shoot lately. It is a really nice gun to target shoot with. It is semi-automatic and I used a 10 shoot 22 long-range bullet clip. Mostly, I shoot targets without a scope, but with a scope could hit a target at 300 or more yards away. It was definitely a fun activity.
For a short time while I was in graduate school, I needed to live very inexpensively. So I rented an apartment with 2 others with similar budget issues in a “unique” part of a nearby city. My share of the rent was $15 a month which was a fair price for the basement apartment we lived in. The other tenants of the building were very well armed but friendly provided you did not give them a reason to dislike you. Of course, all was not quiet and peaceful in our “unique” neighborhood. In less than a year we had 2 shoot-outs in the building with very many rounds of sustained gunfire. Another, time an apartment was set on fire. The burning furniture was thrown out windows and left to burn in the driveway. Otherwise the entire building would have burned down. What about the police and fire departments? They were never invited nor were they willing to come to our “unique” neighborhood. So, during that 1 year period, I keep my 22 loaded and ready for service. When the shooting would start, we would be under a thick wooden table where I could target the apartment door. If someone had tried to get in, I would have done what was going on elsewhere. That is, just start shooting bullets into the door to discourage entry. Surprisingly, even, with all the shooting no one was killed. After the action was over, the target of the attack would come around and give sincere apologies to us and other tenants as well as blow-by-blow description of the action.
More recently, I was the victim of an armed robbery. Definitely not fun looking down the barrel of a large caliber hand gun. They were 3 older teens committing a crime that could put them in prison for a total of $5. After, the crime, I had to wait 3 hours for the police to show up so I could make the report. I ask them what they were going to do about these teenage kids. There reply was: “Don’t worry they will eventually stop the wrong guy.” I thought to myself what a SICK NASTY answer that is!!!
Do you want to be the “WRONG GUY”? Do you want to be their executioner? Why as a society do we value children like them so little that they grow up to do stupid acts such as that? Then we shoot them.

[gen11]

tenni, I have several issues with your position and your arrogance. First, I don't think an American issue is any of a non-American's fucking business, to put it blunty ( I don't weigh in on the xexnophobia of your British/French hostility), although I do admit you have a right to have one and to misuse it. Secondly, since you don't understand guns (your statement), you aren't qualified to have a valid opinion on either side of the issue. And thirdly, how the hell did you come to know so much about my travels, or the lack of them, or any other personal information about me? Gathering information with your imagination isn't the practice of intelligent people.

[elian]

When I say "proper training" - this is part of what I am talking about. A gun is a tool that deserves respect by the owner even more than the adversary.


A permit to carry DOES NOT give you any right or authority to proclaim yourself a protector of others. I have been a master hunter safety instructor since 1974 and people like you are the ones who scare me. You think that permit makes you a GOD. Sooner or later someone will take your gun and shove it up your ass and pull the trigger. I am glad we don't shop where you do, we are certainly safer.

[tenni]

tenni, I have several issues with your position and your arrogance. First, I don't think an American issue is any of a non-American's fucking business, to put it blunty ( I don't weigh in on the xexnophobia of your British/French hostility), although I do admit you have a right to have one and to misuse it. Secondly, since you don't understand guns (your statement), you aren't qualified to have a valid opinion on either side of the issue. And thirdly, how the hell did you come to know so much about my travels, or the lack of them, or any other personal information about me? Gathering information with your imagination isn't the practice of intelligent people.

Gen
You are the one that told me to stay in my own country. Yes, it is true that I do not know your travelling experience but as I wrote, I have been to countries that US citizens were not allowed to go to.

I do not fear people from other countries or travelling to them. I've been in the USA often as I once lived in a border city. We would go over the river for a drink very casually. We usually knew what parts to stay out of but that was years ago. I do think that your country's culture of violence is a threat to my peace in my country. I understand guns and their purpose. I do not understand the type of person who wants guns. I'm learning and it supports my belief about some in your country.

[Coastocoast]

We need to absolutely get rid of all pieces of the constitution that can allow death by any cause other than by execution. Let’s edit the entire constitution in the name of saving lives. This is not all inclusive but we can start here. Religious freedom is protected by the constriction but several religions have been cited as reasons for killing people including the Muslim religion (9-11), the Christian and Jewish religions for starters since murders and wars have occurred over each. Those should be banned immediately and probably all religion since it is just too dangerous to risk allowing. Alcohol and tobacco are not specifically protected by the constitution; neither serves any purpose and a major cause of death by accident and disease so they need to be outlawed immediately. We all know how well prohibition worked last time, but it will work this time if the punishment is harsh enough. How many people have been killed over sex? Jealousy and AIDS kill people daily so banning all recreational sex would save many lives. We can have doctors remove sperm under sedation and it could be artificially implanted after screening couples to determine who is intelligent enough, if it is genetically practical and who is financially capable of procreation. Obviously same sex activity has caused AIDS so it needs to be illegal and punishable by summary removal of all portions of the genitals but the urethra, removal of the anus, installation of a colostomy bag and sealing the mouth shut while installing a feeding tube. The death penalty needs to be preserved for truly reprehensible behavior such as cheating behind the back of a spouse especially with same sex partners because this could result in the bringing home of AIDS to the innocent partner without their consent. Obviously protection from cruel and unusual punishment need be removed from the constitution for the good of the rest of the population. This “safe place” sounds like a great place for YOU to live.

[elian]

Some people want guns for actual personal protection
Some people want guns for a feeling of security
Some people want guns to protect their wealth (family, home, personal possessions)
Some people want guns to give them authority, power or respect
Some people want guns to bully (or kill) others
Some people want guns for sport (hunting or competitive sport, target shooting, etc.)
Some people want guns for procuring food
Some people want guns because they live in a rural area where attack by wildlife is a real threat (mountain lion, bear, etc.)
On a farm it is not unusual to use a gun to kill a diseased or dying animal
Some people use guns as a part of their professional job

"Culture of violence" is not necessarily equivalent to "gun", the gun is just technology/tool.

There are people who are very respectful of firearms who own many guns and there are also wannabe thugs that think just because they can go blasting up the place that they are automatically worthy of respect.

Some say that violent video games (rock and roll music, Classic Role Playing Games) cause people to act out but I am not so sure of that either. I do not necessarily like the idea of pre-teens playing Call of Duty but I think that it also may help them work out some form of aggression without acting it out in the real world. The problem becomes whether or not they can adjust well enough in physical world. For example, teens who see gigabytes of internet porn mistakenly thinking that somehow those porn clips relate to real life sex and relationships in any meaningful way..

I cringe at the language people use talking about their "bitches" and "hoes" ..and lots of other words that I really don't think are very respectful. (I actually don't like gangsta c-rap but every once in a while I make exceptions in the interest of diversity - besides I think this qualifies more as hip-hop.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8cHxydDb7o

I don't like gansta culture at all actually, people who swear using words that have destroyed the culture of a people for the last 100 years don't deserve automatic respect, period.

Gawd I feel like an old man all the sudden..

In a small way, the feelings are the same as LGBT people who have been marginalized. People who feel powerless looking for respect and a sense of control. Young people are always looking for respect and approval from others. They fail to recognize because no one has ever told them that they are powerful and worthy in their own right regardless of whatever weapons they possess or what other people tell them. My heart rejoices whenever i meet a young person who knows their own power without having to resort to fear.

For some reason people don't think that love is a powerful weapon. It is probably the most powerful force we have on the planet. Joyce Davis NPR Middle East bureau chief has interviewed a lot of radical terrorists. She asked one of the most heinous of them, "Why do you do this?" He took an old, worn dog-eared photograph out of his pocket. It was of a man laying on his deathbed, surrounded by children. The terrorist learder said, "He made me promise that I would get our land back." People don't believe that love is powerful yet despite trillions of dollars spent on defense we still find it extremely difficult to stop a single determined individual.

I had an interesting experience one time, one of the boys that used to tease me decided to make fun of me in a dream. When I revealed to him who I really was he became so distraught over having teased me that he killed himself before I could do anything. I got to feel firsthand exactly what it felt like to kill someone else, without pulling the trigger in real life. It was a feeling that made me sick to my stomach - I became so depressed that I also wanted to die, I tried to drown myself. Then I woke up.

It was an interesting lesson. Because of that dream experience I harbor no desire to exact vengeance or revenge on anyone, nor do I wish to use a weapon preemptively in an aggressive manner. I would still defend myself or my family to the best of my ability if threatened but I view aggressive physical violence as a last resort.


I understand guns and their purpose. I do not understand the type of person who wants guns. I'm learning and it supports my belief about some in your country.

[DuckiesDarling]

You know we get it.. the OP doesn't like America.. well guess what most of the Americans on here don't like the OP so I guess the feeling is mutual. He continually posts bashing threads about a country he doesn't understand, doesn't live in, doesn't want to live in and doesn't really know a damned thing about, yet he tells us how we should think, feel and live. Kinda like how he tells others on here how to behave in relationships while not being in one... just ignore him.. it makes it so much easier.

[elian]

Yeah, sorry I went overboard..maybe it wasn't worth the energy. I hope tenni gets some value from my post but I find it hard to believe he wouldn't already know this stuff. Maybe you can tell that I've been wanting to write about the "culture of violence" for a while now because honestly, I hate it - but it is a part of who we are.

[Long Duck Dong]

I find myself in a interesting situation, as I am ex military, ex criminal that has done time for a crime involving a firearm and a ex hunter.....

the right to own and bear arms is not something that i pay much attention to, as its like a car license.... regardless if I have one or not, there is basically NOTHING stopping me getting access to either of them and using them, so all the talk of gun control laws etc, are basically idle talk to those people whom will walk either side of the law, and really only of interest and importance to those that want laws changed or laws to remain unchanged....

would the world be a better place without guns ? I surely do not know, but past history tells me that we were hardly a peaceful world without guns, when we had swords and cannons, clubs and spears..... however there are plenty of people that are ready to tell the rest of the world how to live and what is wrong with their cultures etc..... so when people talk about making the world a better place with gun control laws, etc.... all they are saying, is they want to control how others live, and call it concern for the safety of others.....

much of the argument for and against guns, is near identical to the arguments over so many other rights..... tobacco and smoking, LGBT and same sex marriage rights... about how they will lead to the downfall of society and how those that seek to oppose things like guns, tobacco, lgbt rights etc, are acting in a manner that is for the greater good.... yet many are so blinded by their near religious fervour that they are often blind to the reality of the situation and only see the illusions in their own minds, and that applies to both sides and their respective stances.....

I will continue to walk down the middle of the road, there will be those that use guns constructive and for the most part we will never hear about them... and then there will be those that use the guns in a manner that draw attention to themselves, either by their actions or by the body count.... and so the debate will continue to rage on.... and it will all rest on the powers that be, as to if rights are given or denied..... but its not going to make the world a better place, as there will simply be another battleground to fight in, another war over what can be done to make the world a better place and who is to blame for why its not a better place......

I will continue to have a loaded firearm near me when i sleep, illegal to do so, but I legally own the gun and therefore I am legally responsible for my own actions..... in the same way that those in the part, who have entered my home with the intention to do harm to myself and owns, have done so knowing that their actions are unlawful and disrespectful of others....... and while the options were there to stand around and do nothing or ring the police, quite frankly I perfer to take action as is my right, legal or otherwise, to protect myself and my property......

for the people that think my ways are wrong.... well the opportunity is there for you all to come to NZ, to where I live and help deal with the violent drunks, aggressive people and criminals that live in my community and help protect the general public of my community and prove to me that your ways are right and better than mine, and that my home will be safe because of your actions..... or you can suggest that I call the police etc.... or you can continue to sit in a forum and talk about how you think your ways are better and that you know better etc and how much safer your country is cos of guns or the lack of them, cos there are more people like that in the world than there are, guns.... and if you think that laws and rules are better than guns.... next time you witness a crime, ring a lawyer, not the police...

[savferris]

Great post Long Duck Dong. I am not a gun owner but I believe in my right to own one. If I had a home and family, I probably would. As other people have pointed out, gun laws are only followed by law abiding citizens. If you make it illegal to own a gun, the criminals will always be able to get them, and people will have no protection. We have had a war on illegal drugs for 40 years. Does anyone doubt the availability of these drugs are any less today. How about alcohol during prohibition. Guns would be the same way, you would just turn people trying to protect themselves into criminals. You can't count on police to save you. They arrive in time to clean up the mess and file paperwork.

People do need to be held responsible for not securing their guns when someone gains access to them and commits a crime. Is our society more viloent these days or does it just seem that way because of the many media outlets reporting any sensational stories. I doubt the whole country would hear about someone shooting a few people a hundred years ago. If we are more violent, maybe we should be looking at that issue. Is it from decesitizing us with violent movies, games, etc.? Is it moral decay and no parent at home raising the children? Is it medications and chemicals in our food? Is it our poor health care for mentaly ill people? Maybe these should be looked at.

Our largest massacre at a school occurred in the 1920s in Bath Michigan. An employee rigged the school with explosives. He didn't use a gun. Unless every gun can be eliminated from the country, banning guns should not even be considered.

[tenni]

Thanks for your thoughts Elian.
I do not really consider that I live in a Culture of Violence but there is the overflow such as video games. I don't play such video games. Only recently has my government been practising a more aggressive and violent approach to dealing with other countries. I don't consider their reasons valid. The list of things that you wrote on why you believe that why people want guns have some points that I do not consider valid and just. What you wrote at one point about teens having guns in the back of their trucks while at school seems invalid to me even if they are locked. I have not lived in such a rural location though. Yesterday on the news, it stated that 54% of US people support the NRA while 46% do not from a survey after Newtown. This shows me that the US is torn on this issue. I think that there would be geographical pockets that would agree with the NRA in Canada but overall people would not support such ideas as arming teachers in schools at all. Those that write that you can not wait for the police seem to be living in fear despite their denial imo. Owning a hunting gun is quite different than owing a hand gun let alone an assault weapon. It should not be a right but a priviledge to own any firearm. The opposite thinking is not healthy in a contemporary Western society imo.

[gen11]

ELIAN . . . .a beautiful, intelligent, extremey articulate post, and not over the top at all. If anything, it's characterized by its lack of hostility to the OP and/or the OP's position.

I would add one stream of thought to blend into yours about young people. Having substitute-taught in an inner-city middle school in 1994, following a year of teaching English to truly sweet 7th graders in 1967-68 and two years teaching sophomores, juniors, and seniors in 1968-70, I was rocked back on my heels to learn that any 7th-grade child who was disciplined, or criticized, for any behavior at all, be it "acting out" or failure to perform the required learning activities, went into a smoldering rage at being "dissed," and, if he had "involved" parents, those parents were at the school the next day wanting the teacher fired. Evidently the children had been allowed by their immediate societies to inculcate the idea that because they existed, because the breathed, ate, and defecated, they deserved respect and deferential treatment from adults -- even the most worthless little pieces of human detrius demanded to be treated like royalty. Why? How? I believe because of seveal unsolved, an possibly now unsolvable, defects in our national culture: racial hatred absorbed from infancy from their parents; an almost total lack of parential guidance toward and into the true sources of legitimate self-respect; Hollywood, television, and video games teaching them that there is no such thing as personal liability for antisocial behavior; a bludgeoning culture of social, moral, and ethical detachment and irresponsibility. In short, I believe our entire society is mortally, probably fatallly sick with a lack of personal integrity, and we, as a nationa, are teaching our children to be this way through smothering conditioning and unrelenting bad example.

From whence will come the next Erin Copelands, William Faulkners, Colin Powels, Clint Eastwoods, Norman Schwartzkopfs -- true artists, statesmen, and patriots?

The problem with gun violence -- which is relatively minor compared to other dangers in our society (see chart earlier in this thread), however lurid and tragic it can be in isolated instances -- is not with the gun, but with the crumbling civilization behind them.

[gen11]

DUCKIES DARLING: You and I have crossed swords in the past, I believe, but here --- RIGHT ON !

[elian]

I was speaking from my perspective in the US, not about your country. I have never been to your country and would not presume to speak about it without direct personal experience.

Yes, we are torn on the issue, just like with so many other issues in the states right now - split right down the middle..that is why your comments are incensing a lot of people because here it is a very sensitive topic. People here do not always trust that the government will do the right thing. I do not necessarily think that government is evil or its out to get you but I do think there is a lot of bureaucracy - it gives the impression of a big lumbering monster and that makes it seem scary to people at times.

After having just fought against the British and won a very costly war the founders of the country decided that it should ALWAYS be the right of citizens of our country (where the "West" was actually considered the "wilds" of Pennsylvania) to bear arms. Perhaps to deter the government from ever getting a little too "uppity" again. From what I understand the country was too poor to afford a professional army so therefore they used a militia and an unarmed militia is not of much use. I don't have a problem with any of that, except to say that I wish people would use violence as the LAST resort instead of the first.

At the same time I think people are very tired of the violence, and the first thing they see is a child who would not have been able to inflict so much injury if he hadn't been able to find his mother's gun. I can empathize with that but my position is that even with best intentions we will never be able to control access to guns 100%. We ought to be fixing the people and our society instead of focusing on the guns.

It may be hard to imagine but yes, at that time in late 80's and early 90's some 15+ year old teens did have guns in their vehicles, it was hunting season, the weapons were unloaded and it wasn't a problem. Again because the culture was different. 80% of the children in that school probably knew SOMEBODY in their family who taught them the proper respect for weapons. I have additional respect for weapons because one of my best friends was actually shot and killed by accident during target practice. It is a lesson that everyone in that class learned when they had to look at his empty chair in school the next day. He was a good friend of mine and I often wonder what life would have been like if he was still here..

What would I tell an active shooter? "If you want my respect just put the gun down and talk to me. Fear is not respect, put the gun down and you have my respect instantly."


Thanks for your thoughts Elian.
I do not really consider that I live in a Culture of Violence but there is the overflow such as video games. I don't play such video games. Only recently has my government been practising a more aggressive and violent approach to dealing with other countries. I don't consider their reasons valid. The list of things that you wrote on why you believe that why people want guns have some points that I do not consider valid and just. What you wrote at one point about teens having guns in the back of their trucks while at school seems invalid to me even if they are locked. I have not lived in such a rural location though. Yesterday on the news, it stated that 54% of US people support the NRA while 46% do not from a survey after Newtown. This shows me that the US is torn on this issue. I think that there would be geographical pockets that would agree with the NRA in Canada but overall people would not support such ideas as arming teachers in schools at all. Those that write that you can not wait for the police seem to be living in fear despite their denial imo. Owning a hunting gun is quite different than owing a hand gun let alone an assault weapon. It should not be a right but a priviledge to own any firearm. The opposite thinking is not healthy in a contemporary Western society imo.

[Realist]

gen11,

You have at least ONE fan, here...ME! (Actually, you've probably got more than one) You hit the nail on the head!

I taught in US Army schools and, as you might imagine, I had little of the trouble with parents, or discipline, that you experienced.

Friends, who taught in public and private civilian schools, however, mirrored your conclusions about how children reflect their up-bringing.

[darkeyes]

*Shakes head in despair and lets out ironic laff at macho dimwittery*

Still Crimbo.. Hogmanay an' New Year 2 come... prefer to celebrate nice time of year, peace to all men and women and children an' have fun rather than involve meself wiv big macho tuff guys wiv ther big boys toys talking through their nether regions:eek2:... and so I shall...:impleased

[elian]

Yes Fran, it would make a lot more sense just to be grateful, happy and celebrate as best we can. In a way for me this time of year is about rebirth so writing this stuff out may seem like a macabre exercise in frustration but it helps me to think through things and gives me hope for what I would like to see come to pass in the future.

[tenni]

"We ought to be fixing the people and our society instead of focusing on the guns."


Elian

I agree with the fixing people and society but see the link to guns as connected. Trust and comfort with others instead of fear. Asking ourselves why these violent things happen and how to prevent them. I agree that violence seems to be so internally ingrained in the US but there are peaceful people there too. I'm hopeful that they may prevail but I suspect not.

So, what kind of people want guns? Those that fear keeps coming back to me. Those that want to kill others whether people or animals.

[void()]

"Some people want gun/s for protection"

Yes, protection from a tyranical government or criminal thugs being one
aspect. And it would protect myself, my family and those I love.

Some people want guns for sport (hunting or competitive sport, target
shooting, etc.)

Yes, I would ensure via target practice my ability to accurately and
properly use a firearm responsibily. I'm old country boy style though.

We grew up thinking if you need to fire more than three rounds to sight
a gun in you may as well not have the gun. I can normally sigh in two
shots. Guess it's a bit genetic, grandfather was marksman second class,
uncle got first class. I probably fall somewhere between.

"Some people want guns to give them authority, power or respect"

You give all three of those away to get them returned. Guns have no
value in this equation. If you need one to have respect, same as needing
more than three rounds to sight one in.

"Some people want guns for procuring food

Some people want guns because they live in a rural area where attack by
wildlife is a real threat (mountain lion, bear, etc.)

On a farm it is not unusual to use a gun to kill a diseased or dying
animal"

Yes indeed. All three of these seem valid and good reasons for a gun
being handy.


"Some people want guns to bully (or kill) others"

Nope, sorry. Absoloute last resort there, unless plunked down into a war
situation. Of course in war it becomes a clear issue of the other or me,
see personal protection.


"The gun is just technology/tool."

Exactly. People need to be accountable and responsible. Maybe we should
ban fire? It kills folks too. But we can cook our food with it. Needs
banned though, got idiots lighting random fires. People die if fire is
not used correctly.

This debate, if you want to call it that, seems a wholly non-issue. I
think some prefer to illicit drama where it need not be, nor does it
exist. It isn't the tool whom builds the exqusite set of cabnets for the
kitchen but the artisan whm weilds the tool. Tenni, I can respect you
but please stop trying to muddy waters that are calm and clear.

Americans aren't violent because of guns. Guns do not cause violence,
people do. I apologize for all the boneheads in my screwed up country.
Not all of us are member of the same flock. Stop painting with wide
brushes, it just makes hate easier to accept.

Then again, that may be your objective. I am speculating.

[void()]

It's not fully about fear either, Tenni. A gun is a tool, is a tool.

A cigar is a cigar.

[Nextyearsxmassgifts]

I was about to give a thoughtful response. But then I realized tenni is Canadian. So his opinion really doesn't mean anything.

[gen11]

REALIST: <doffing cap, bowing head> Thank you, sir --- and thank you for your service.

[matutum]

have bad guys that like to do home invasions,break into my garage,tried to rob me walking home from work, small things like thaqt

[Long Duck Dong]

It's not fully about fear either, Tenni. A gun is a tool, is a tool.

A cigar is a cigar.

exactly.......

I have a gun near me at night, because its there as a tool i can use....and its only one of the tools I can use, depending on the situation.... I can also use my body ( martial arts skills ) or reasoning ( they have the opportunity to leave the house or test their luck against my skill ).... and I have the choice if I turn them into swiss cheese or if I incapacitate them.... take away the gun, and it actually makes me more dangerous as martial arts skills are invisible, a voice only works on a person that will listen.... so the gun is a visible tool that I can use to show a person that there is a threat posed by me and that they may not be the threat that they think they are, to me...

I tend to look at having a gun, as the same as being closeted or out as a bisexual.... i am out as a bisexual and I view being closeted as a tool, a shield that people can use to *protect * themselves against society and the way that society can act and think.... and if people have guns to * protect themselves out of fear *, would it then be true that people that are closeted, use the closet out of fear, rather than a tool for their own well being and peace of mind?

[jem_is_bi]

I was about to give a thoughtful response. But then I realized tenni is Canadian. So his opinion really doesn't mean anything.

My father was born in Canada. He fought under Patton through France and Germany and definitely knows what guns and war are all about.
I respect his opinions even when I do not agree with them.
I have relatives in Canada and would visit them once or twice a year when I was young.
Last visit was for the funeral of an aunt. It was great visiting with cousins I have not seen in a long time.
I would not write off there opinions either.

[enkidu]

I recall efforts at banning guns in England didn't work all too well: bad guys still have them, and there was a large increase in knife-related violence. (Someone please gently correct me if I'm mistaken.) Guns are illegal in China as well, yet there's still mass violence: someone recently went on a knifing spree in an elementary school. I have a friend who cannot transfer a 150 year old rifle to his son when he dies because according to California law, it's an assault weapon. I saw that rifle several years ago - it's an absolutely beautiful work of art and engineering, and it still fires properly! Despite these gun control laws, if someone wants to hurt someone else, they will find a way.

I know this from personal experience; I worked in law enforcement as an analyst/profiler, specializing in homicide, rape, child molestation, and other crimes. Over a five-year period, 90% of the homicides I responded to were committed by a knife, which the other analysts thought was unusual. But they didn't consider this: using a gun is easy, impersonal, and often imparts a sense of superiority; using a knife is intimate, messy, and can give better expression to the rage one often has boiling inside them. I've found there are three reasons why people commit crime: greed, mental illness, or passion (usually rage). But one must ask: can someone be so evil that they're mentally ill, or is it that they're so ill they're evil? How would Adam Lanza fit into this spectrum? For that matter, how would Idi Amin and Jeffrey Daumer fit into it?

I also worked background checks for concealed weapons permits. One of the counties next to us simply flat out refused to grant any. My county did so very selectively; good reasons included transporting large sums of money as part of one's business, judges or other high-profile public employees (cuz let's face it, government employees these days are walking targets!). In essence, protection. Tenni, does this make these people suspect or imply they're unstable? Perhaps they're concerned for their safety because they know they make attractive targets. My department had a rigorous training requirement that had to be renewed with their permit on a regular basis. Other jurisdictions were not so comprehensive, and others outdid us. There is no real national standard, and most states leave it up to individual counties.

Another friend of mine has several varieties of guns and goes to the range often (as Tenni said this doesn't seem to be proper justification for gun ownership). Because of his proficiency, he earned a place as a volunteer civilian trainer, training Marines in urban combat. If my friend hadn't been able to do so, there would probably be quite a few Marines who were sent over to Afghanistan and Iraq who would've been completely unprepared for urban combat. Indirectly, my friend may have helped save their lives. Yes, my friend also has practiced as a sniper. Why? Not because he's mentally unstable. Ask a good sniper if you know one - the training and work of a sniper requires excellent discipline and self-control, physical and mental fortitude that are almost monk-like. Gun violence these days can definitely be seen as an offshoot of self-centeredness and lack of self-control; proper gun use can be the complete opposite. Like any martial art, it takes discipline. Proper discipline will give someone a sense of self-worth and self-respect, and the knowledge that they don't have to rely on some dumbass on the street for any credibility.

Having said all this, I do not support the NRA; some of the things they have said recently are just asinine and I can't take an organization seriously if that's the best they can do. The amount of jingoism here is also distressing: just because Tenni is Canadian doesn't mean his opinion is worth less than anyone else's - Americans take freedom of speech seriously, so we shouldn't attack someone else for exercising theirs! Expressing an opinion is very different than forcing it on someone in the form of policy, so just consider this a teaching/learning opportunity if nothing else.

[Nextyearsxmassgifts]

My father was born in Canada. He fought under Patton through France and Germany and definitely knows what guns and war are all about.
I respect his opinions even when I do not agree with them.
I have relatives in Canada and would visit them once or twice a year when I was young.
Last visit was for the funeral of an aunt. It was great visiting with cousins I have not seen in a long time.
I would not write off there opinions either.

I have family in Canada and I have spent a lot of time there my self. I have served my country in Kuwait, Iraq, and Afghanistan. I also served with members of the Canadian Air Force the British RAF, and my favorite guys the Australian AF. I wouldn't write off any of there opinions.

tenni called it an opinion. But what he really offered was his judgment. Judgment of others without knowing there life or who they are. I don't respect anyone who dose that.

[tenni]

Post 41
Void
You write some very good points about what kind of person wants to buy a gun. Yes, if a person is using target practice to improve their aim for sport whether hunting or winter Olympic ski/shoot events that makes sense. It makes sense if they are in the militia or police force to target practice. To want a gun just to target practice seems to be missing a reason or purpose imo. Even skeet shooters seem to do this as a practice for hunting..then again...maybe skeet shooting is a sport? Not hand guns for skeet shooting though...not sure.


A gun is a tool and its purpose is to kill or maim. It is has no other purpose. Well, I guess that you might use an unloaded gun to put under your tire if stuck in snow but surely there are better things even for that. ;) It is not designed to mix drinks or dig in your garden. I don’t get your point in making this statement about a gun being a tool? How does that connect to my question as to what kind of person wants to buy a gun?


The purpose of this thread is not restricted to one country. No one has stated that the kind of person wanting to buy/steal a gun varies from country to country and yet the odd poster deems it appropriate to dismiss my question due to my nationality. I believe that most Canadians do not want to buy a hand gun but I am not sure that is proven by a survey. I don’t know if most people in France, Japan, Britain want to buy a gun and if the type varies. I understand that a lot of people in Syria right now might want to buy/obtain a gun out of fear.

The fact that I am Canadian is relevant to my question though. I see the horror and sadness in the country south of my own and wonder why do these people want to buy guns? I care more about what happens there than I do about what happens in Bora Bora. It impacts me and people in my country both emotionally in empathy with such thinking and tragedies via guns. As I have already posted illegal guns get smuggled in to my country and kill my fellow Canucks. I still feel safe because the insanity of gun use has not reached the same level and hopefully never will. Ninety percent of illegal guns in Canada come from one source and it is not in Canada.

Post 4
The US has the most gun deaths in all of the G8 countries. Mexico just beats out the US by less than one percent. It doesn't matter one iota that there are fewer deaths in the US from gun deaths than smoking as pointed out in post 4 as far as to what kind of person wants to buy a gun? It seems strange for someone to think that validates the desire to buy guns? Post 4 also ignores suicide by the use of guns, unintentional deaths by guns, and undetermined deaths by guns. However, your chart doesn’t really address my question as to what kind of person wants to buy/steal a gun though..does it?

Post 48
enkidu
Your comment about the UK and guns is incorrect and I don’t think connected to my question. Britain gun laws worked very well and this has been pointed out by darkeyes in another thread when there was mass murder in Scotland. Despite police being unarmed, shooting fatalities of members of the police are extremely rare; there were three in England and Wales in the eleven-year period from 2000/01 to 2010/11. The United Kingdom has one of the lowest rates of gun homocides in the world with 0.07 recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants in 2009 compared to the United States' 3.0 (over 40 times higher) and to Germany's 0.21 (3 times higher).

Post 49
I don't understand your comment about relatives in Canada and how it applies to my question about what kind of person wants to buy/steal a gun? I will think about it but everyone with an opinion has made a judgement to reach that opinion..haven't they?

[darkeyes]

There is much tosh being talked on this thread... some derives from xenophobia.. some from an innate superiority over others.. some out of brain deadedness and stupidity.. I say this.. when our part of the world has a problem, and our neighbours around us have much less of that problem, we consider why this should be so.. why is it that our neighbours do things differently and at much less cost?? We learn lessons and see if those lessons can be applied to our own little part of the world... we do this also when our neighbours have much more of a problem... and we make sure as best we can that we do not make our problem as bad or worse than theirs..

In general, I agree with tenni, for I too live a country where gun crime is low.. and because of laws and controls enacted since Dunblane 16 years ago, it is becoming even less of a problem.. we still have tragedies, but the trend continues downward.. we have in Scotland an awful knife crime problem, and this has always been worse than gun crime.. yet that too in recent years has begun to drop. The gun is far more feared than the knife because it is so impersonal, and can, in very quick time, far more so than any knife, create wholesale slaughter from distance and no body close proximity is necessary. Guns are not banned in the UK and certainly not Scotland... they are used primarily for sport, hunting and control of vermin, but are held by permit and strict conditions put upon their use, but some are held for defence of property and the person, but strict conditions on their use also exists. They have to be locked up securely and cannot be carried about willy nilly on the street.. we have effective firearm control. It works, imperfectly as any man made regulation is imperfect, but it works and gun crime falls year on year... murder rates throughout the UK of all types are far lower than US firearm homicide alone...

...for all our problems, the UK even in its worst areas of which the west of Scotland is a major problem, has a far less serious problem with homicide of all types than the US does with gun homicide alone.

Some Britons wish guns were more freely available, but overall people do not like guns and wish to see them tightly controlled. Illegal guns will always be a problem yet even here, crime rates appear to be falling. Britons may not like their government, but they sure as hell are not afraid of it. Indeed governments in the UK tend to be as much joke as serious threat to people... maybe we should fear them more for there is no doubt we are increasingly under threat when it comes to our civil liberties, but a people should not fear their government.. in western democracy, Government is a transient thing. That it becomes more authoritarian is in some ways how people like it.. until it happens.. and there are ways we can bring down government away from the ballot box and challenge it other than by holding a gun in every household should that government push its luck and get too big for its boots... and peoples have done this and will do again..

Firearm homicide is something which can be dealt with reasonably effectively but attitudes in the US must change for that to happen and that means at least in part some increased gun control. People have to want to change and have the will to do it... but such is the macho state of much of American society I am not sure it can happen. Sometimes rights do have to be surrendered for the greater good.... the thousands each year in the US and their families, and especially those in Newtown at present would probably agree with that. The right to life is more important than the right to carry a firearm... easy availability and lax gun control deprive far too many of the right to life, and of course for every life taken there are many ruined by maiming, and many more ruined by personal loss.

We should respect everyone's opinion no matter their origin or country of residence.. whether or not we like them as individuals or loathe them... for we expect our's to be respected.. if we do not respect the opinions (or judgements for that matter) of others how can we expect our's to be treated with respect and listened to? The Piers Morgan furore is a case in point.. I may have no time for the man but he does occasionally have something quite valuable to say... and to deny him the right of freedom of speech because he criticises one aspect of the US constitution is an appalling abuse of his right to freedom of speech.. people can and do argue for that US constitution be changed. It is not written in stone and can be and is amended occasionally. That he is not American has no bearing. Freedom of speech is for all, not just Americans, just as our laws defend the right to free speech in the UK for all, not simply Britons.

..I end by saying this... to any who would deny tenni his right to free speech on this site and would ignore him as he is not American... this site is not American but is in fact Canadian.. I suggest that people lose personal animosity to him or any other and listen to what he has to say. No one has to agree with it, but there are few who have nothing valuable to say on this debate no matter which side of the fence they sit on.

[Coastocoast]

America is what it is because of our freedoms; other countries are what they are because of their lack of freedoms which they choose. You may decide the right to bear arms, freedom of speech and other liberties are not a worthwhile part of your nation. You may choose to give these up and be more like China and other nations who discourage these freedoms with an iron fist if you choose. Remember as you decide to limit freedoms “for the good of the masses” you may find there are new limits on the freedoms you hold “for the good of the masses” dear including choice of religion and the freedom of open sexual orientation. You walk this slippery slope rather than upholding existing law that is now ignored you do so at your own peril. You also have the right to never set foot into the USA and please do not let any American persuade you to do otherwise. Rest assured I will not bother you on your own soil and not try to tell you how to run your life there. The man who was willing to risk his life and lost it to free those from slavery believed in the freedoms that made the nation what it is. “America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.”
Abraham Lincoln

[darkeyes]

America is what it is because of our freedoms; other countries are what they are because of their lack of freedoms which they choose. You may decide the right to bear arms, freedom of speech and other liberties are not a worthwhile part of your nation. You may choose to give these up and be more like China and other nations who discourage these freedoms with an iron fist if you choose. Remember as you decide to limit freedoms “for the good of the masses” you may find there are new limits on the freedoms you hold “for the good of the masses” dear including choice of religion and the freedom of open sexual orientation. You walk this slippery slope rather than upholding existing law that is now ignored you do so at your own peril. You also have the right to never set foot into the USA and please do not let any American persuade you to do otherwise. Rest assured I will not bother you on your own soil and not try to tell you how to run your life there. The man who was willing to risk his life and lost it to free those from slavery believed in the freedoms that made the nation what it is. “America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.”
Abraham Lincoln

The US as a state, and its politicians and businessmen, and many of its citizens tell or try to tell other nations how they should be every day of the year.. you may not..but many Americans do.. in fact the US goes further and imposes what American politicians want or try to in many countries of the world... it is one thing offering advice as a friend which is what I do and have always done, it is quite another to impose that advice either covertly or overtly by military or other means.. the British did the same as did other empires in history, and still attempt to do either on the coat tails of the US or UN or on occasion just because they think they can.... as a pacifist I do not think we should ever impose our will on others but lead either by example or try to persuade others to change how they do things.. the advice u offer me I accept it as ur right to offer it and will listen to advice from wherever it comes, whichever nation... gladly, even if, as in this instance, I reject its premise... I place far too high a value on human life to do other..

Whether or not the US is more free than the UK is an old argument... in some ways it is so.. in others not... but overall? That is an argument we can row about for ever and day.. much depends on what we consider freedoms and liberties... the US and its people accepts many restrictions on what citizens can do, and even say... u have slander and libel laws, and Americans are restricted on what they can say about many of the workings of state and business. You accept limitations on many things which is why the criminal and civil law codes exist.. just as they do here.. you accept limitation on use of firearms for u do not have the right to go out and shoot someone simply because u do not like them, or they have upset u or because u woke up and felt it would be a good thing to do...

In this country our ancestors fought for many of our freedoms as well as for many of yours often bloodily.. but as we progressed into being a more civilised state, and increasingly abhorred violence and placed a higher value on human existence and liberty, we placed greater restrictions on what people could do because that is how a civilised society works.... people do not have absolute freedom to do as they wish whatever kind of society they live in. In the last 2 hundred years in particular, the British people have achieved liberties our, and your ancestors never dreamed of not by use of the gun, but by peaceful agitation and demonstration against the state, and by unarmed civil disobedience against that state often in the fact of armed opposition by the state... the UK may or may not be as free as the US but there isn't much in it either way. Unlike the US slavery was abolished by peaceful campaigning, demonstration and agitation, LGBT rights were achieved more recently in the same way and should government decide to remove those and other freedoms the British people will most likely oppose them and defeat them not but use of the gun but by relatively peaceful unarmed opposition and civil disobedience even in the face of violent armed opposition by the state.

To end if I may be so bold, predictions by great men making such statements as Lincoln have throughout history been proven wrong.. nothing lasts forever and the US will not remain unchanged forever.. how change will be brought about, that is also something we can make prediction, but we cannot be sure of its accuracy... we can only be sure that it will change just as everywhere and everythng else will change... the only question is how...

[Coastocoast]

Yes but here the Lockerbie Bomber would not have been freed and would have died in prison for his violent actions. Your country does not enforce the laws on the books there regarding violent crime, so there is not a lot of room to speak about what another country should do. Every word you have written there in a private email, spoken in a telephone call and other form of private communication is not protected so there the criminal has more right than the innocent citizen has. Forfeiting all of your rights is something you can do but we won't. I hope that your rights to openly identify as bisexual are not next to go. Good luck, keep your system and we will keep ours.

[darkeyes]

Yes but here the Lockerbie Bomber would not have been freed and would have died in prison for his violent actions. Your country does not enforce the laws on the books there regarding violent crime, so there is not a lot of room to speak about what another country should do. Every word you have written there in a private email, spoken in a telephone call and other form of private communication is not protected so there the criminal has more right than the innocent citizen has. Forfeiting all of your rights is something you can do but we won't. I hope that your rights to openly identify as bisexual are not next to go. Good luck, keep your system and we will keep ours. The freeing of the Lockerbie bomber was done on compassionate grounds to a dying man in accord with our law.. violent crime is punished in accord with our law... there is some belief that the appeal by Mr Al-Magrahi would have been successful since there is believed to be sufficient reasonable doubt whether he did the crime... at the time of his trial there was reasonable doubt but a head was needed and duly delivered.. his freeing on compassionate grounds prevented his appeal being heard and therefore the embarrassment to the UK government of potentially having convicted an innocent man .. the appeal fell on his release and the evidence being considered by the Scottish Appeal Court will now not be presented nor will it see the light of day in our lifetime if ever.

It is of course possible that evidence will come from Libya and the Gadaffi regime's own files that he was guilty.. equally it is possible that evidence may come that he was not. Until that occurs he remains a convicted criminal.. I doubt however whatever evidence is ever found as to his innocence that most Americans will judge him an innocent man... the families of British victims of the bombing by and large believe there was sufficient reasonable doubt of his guilt that he should never have been convicted.. and such evidence that has come to light since his conviction has only served to reinforce that view. We cannot dismiss the possibility that he was freed (innocent or guilty) because the UK government wanted a deal on Libya over oil.. the British government has always said that the decision was that of the Scottish Justice secretary who is part of the Scottish government which is anything but beholden to British governments of any hue and both he and the Scottish government deny that they acted in any way contrary to Scots law and without undue pressure from London.. the Scots penal system does allow for the early release of seriously ill and dying criminals on compassionate grounds... as indeed it should... this country, and here I talk of Scotland, enforces its own law as well as does your own.. Al-Magrahi was released in accord with our law. You may not like it... but that is how it is.. and I have always believed law and the penal code should be exercised compassionately even to the most violent criminals in certain circumstances.. on the other hand, I do not believe that any nation has a right to imprison, torture and throw away the key without due process of its own nationals or those of any other country...

I have deviated as u have from the subject of the thread... but u have made accusations which are to put it simply.. cobblers... I am no lover of the law nof my country whether it be Scottish or UK law and penal codes... that they need wholesale overhaul I do not deny in the least.. I doubt however u and I would agree just how that should be done.... the British and Scottish Governments operate the laws and penal codes of the UK and Scotland (as do the governments of Wales and Northern Ireland) at least as well as the US and any state within the United States.. I make no apologies for the fact that there are differences between our two countries.. there are differences between the Scots and English codes too... and that our criminal law and penal code allows for compassionate release of the seriously ill and dying. I am not and never have been a supporter of whole life sentences which I have always maintained are counter-productive, but they exist in both US and UK law, but in UK law, and Scots law it is far more rarely imposed... in theory at least hope of rehabilitation of even the worst offenders exists... my own view is that more resources and action should be devoted to making that more of a reality..

As to my communications being safe or otherwise, at present they are at least as safe from government interception as that of US citizens... there are proposals to change that somewhat, but as yet that remains the case... whether those proposals come to pass time will tell... whether Britons allow it to come to pass, let's wait and see...

For your information I am not a bisexual... I am lesbian... small point.. but if u know this country at all u will be aware that the LGBT is currently as safe if not safer from persecution for being who and what they are than those of the US... we are at least as liberal a society sexually (and in most other ways) as the US and the rights of gays lesbians and bisexuals are being extended in at least 3 countries of the UK currently... that some rights are under threat is a fact.. no more so than in the US but should there be any serious threat to them I very much doubt whether the government of the day will last too long...

Lastly.. if u have ever read anything I have ever said in these forums u will know I like neither the political systems of either the US or the UK and would tear them down and start from scratch.. making them truly democratic and responsive and responsible to the people, building from the bottom up, not the other way around... small point also.. but quite important I think... more deviation from the subject... but fun and food for thought...

Forgive me, tenni, for the distraction.. will shurrup now...:tongue:

[DuckiesDarling]

Hey Fran what about the two cops that were killed.. you remember the ones that died because they had no guns.... oh yeah one was a lesbian too, guess even that didn't matter more than a pimple on your backside. Guns do not kill people, people kill people. The bottom line is our Constitution is OURS not yours, not Tenni's not anyone else's but ours. We are not saying we should all have access to m-16's we are saying we have the right YES RIGHT to bear arms. It is one we do hold sacred along with our right to free speech. People will not stop getting guns no matter how you limit access. It's been proven, the guy who set up ambush and killed two firefighters was not allowed to have guns, the ones he used were purchased for him by a neighbor. We have laws to limit who gets them but they only work when you are already a law abiding citizen. People seem to forget that it's not the laws that allow people to have guns that lead to a school shooting, but a determined person who will cause havoc no matter what method he has to use. So spare me the diatribe and walls of text.. not interested. You keep your own customs, I'll keep my rights and be proud to be an American.

[darkeyes]

As I recall, it is unlikely that having guns would have saved them.. and the gender or sexuality of anyone is of no consequence.. the fact that they were human beings trying to go about their everyday business is important.. I would care for them whatever they were.. that is why I believe as passionately as I do about guns.. human life is far too important to me..

..and people indeed do kill people with guns.. a mere tool.. a mere tool which makes it so easy to kill large numbers of human beings from distance, ever so impersonally in very short time.. even kill those taking shelter from an oncoming bullet or bullets... u know what I think and have always thought.. ignore it if u wish, its ur country... what I say I offer as friend and nothing else... a personal attack on my lack of concern for the deaths of 2 people I will let pass but do think it both uncalled for and certainly wrong,,,, I simply believe that my country is safer and better because of how we control firearms than is yours with its precious right to bear arms and believe the evidence supports what I say and believe it time the US moved out of the 18th and 19th centuries and into the 21st..

[Long Duck Dong]

this is the issue that so many have with threads like this, they near always end up in a US bashing thread......and like most things, its done by people that are not US citizens.... a bit like the military bashing is often done by anti war / anti military / anti gun people....etc etc etc

people do not like guns, we get it.... but it doesn't make us mentally ill / insane / war mongers... any more than it makes a anti war / anti gun person a dope smoking free loving hippie....

a gun is merely a tool, and depending on whose hands its in, can make a huge difference as to the outcome of any situation, those that want to argue that, appear to be the people that really tend to show a lack of interest in learning about the thoughts of those that own and carry guns, instead perfering to dismiss our understandings, thoughts and feelings and focus on what a country may or may not be like....

people like me have walked the walk, we speak from personal experience, understanding and knowledge of the things we talk about.....who better to know the nature and understanding of guns than the very people that have used them.....

is my country safer because we do not have the american or UK style of gun control ?.... I am really not sure, let me ask the cops that have been killed in the line of duty, in the US, UK, NZ and other countries, by people that have legal and illegal weapons, including guns....... I could ask the cops that have been attacked by samurai swords, machetes, clubs and other forms of lethal weapons, if they feel safer because we do not have the gun laws of the US, but I already know that many of the NZ cops are tired of having to deal with drug crazed people armed with a attitude... and the anti gun / anti taser advocates that oppose any attempt to arm the cops but are never around when cops are attacked or killed......but quick to try and blame the police for the fact they were attacked cos the criminal is so misunderstood by soceity.....

cops in my eyes, are like soldiers and the same as any other person, they want to feel safe in their own homes and on the streets, and unfortunately, thats not the way the world is.... so for many people, guns have become a necessary evil..... and like any other tool, a lethal weapon that can be used in ways that result in tragic outcomes.....but so are cars, booze and drugs, things that people view as part of their life and therefore not up for debate.......

I watch a program in NZ called booze wars, about the epidemic binge drinking culture of the UK and the issues the police go thru EVERY weekend, dealing with people that are out of control......and there are times that the commentators talk about how the binge drinking culture of the UK is one of the worst in the world.... yet, per head of population, NZ out does the US and the UK for our issues with booze and drugs, and even guns, and we have 4.2 million people compared to how many in the UK and the US ?

a progressive society is not always the safest society, the single greatest cost to the human race and cost to society, has been the push to create a * better world *, in terms of lives cost, property destroyed and societies wiped out.....the so called * greater good * mentality, and wars have been a small part of the greater good movement....

there have been a number of cases in NZ, where dangerous criminals have been released back into society, and taken human lives, and that is the direct result of people that see guns and long prison terms as wrong.....where the rights of the criminal outweigh the rights of people to defend and protect themselves..... so i quess in a way, part of the reason I have a gun, is because the so called safer society is not safer at all, unless you are a criminal, in which case, your wish to illegally enter my home is protected because of anti gun advocates, cos heaven forbid, a person armed with a basebat that is intent of beating the shit out of me, be stopped from doing so by a gun.....

[void()]

"I don’t get your point in making this statement about a gun being
a tool? How does that connect to my question as to what kind of person
wants to buy a gun?"

But yet you can clearly comprehend its use as a tool, as evidenced in
this paragraph written by you.

"You write some very good points about what kind of person wants to
buy a gun. Yes, if a person is using target practice to improve their
aim for sport whether hunting or winter Olympic ski/shoot events that
makes sense. It makes sense if they are in the militia or police force
to target practice. To want a gun just to target practice seems to be
missing a reason or purpose imo. Even skeet shooters seem to do this as
a practice for hunting..then again...maybe skeet shooting is a sport?
Not hand guns for skeet shooting though...not sure."

Anyone whom needs to procure food or protect self and family, likely may
desire a gun. A gun is a tool useful in both accounts. Am I responsible
and accountable for all who desire a gun? No. Each that so desires,
should be responsible and accountable.

That would be a perfect world. Our world is far from perfect. Sorry,
never realized I promised you a perfect one, lover. I accept this fact,
our world is not perfect. I may dislike it. So what?

All I am capable of is tending to myself, my family. Me yapping away
here solves nothing. In fact all it entails is running into people like
you, whom thrive upon creating drama via trying to rile up vitriol.
Sorry, not happening either.

Not here to entertain you, or grant perfect worlds. Hell, I'd like if
you could entertain me a bit. But I'm not going to resort to the tactics
you present here to get that to happen. Frankly, it's too much like work
and I hate the grind and drama.

I will say again though, desiring a gun is not strictly due to fear. A
gun is a tool in the same way a computer is a tool. I can play games on
my computer. I can talk to some zany cannuck who says he's empathetic
and emotionally torn up over guns. I could create a program to knock out
specific controller units in a nuclear power plant, which was likely
entertaining. I am rather responsible and to a degree highly accountable
for my computer use.


What type of person wants a computer? How does that effect tea prices in
China? Could 'bad' people use computers to do 'bad' things? How does that
apply to quantum negative neurotic theory?

See my point? There is none actually, just a bunch of hyperbolic
speculation. I think most here refer to it as oral sex, talk about all
the sex they wish they got. Excuse me, I have life which exceeds this
site and chewing the fat over crap I can not change.

And allow me to grant you this. I concur we need better gun control.
The attitude in US does need to change in major ways.

Frankly though, if someone wants to walk into my home
and kill me, they will. They need not use a gun. What will be, will be.
Even if better control is enacted, it will not stop the desperate from attaining
a gun/s. And with such control in place you'd see a lot darker black
market, as in you'd see the desperate not register guns, guns being cached.

Shoot might even see three cases of cigarettes offered to buy a gun off the books.
Bad people will do bad things. What will be, will be.

[tenni]

"I'll keep my rights and be proud to be an American."

I read this statement to include "I'm the kind of person proud to have so many mass murders in my country because I support outdated beliefs about the need to buy/steal guns".

Void


I never wrote that a person wants a gun “strictly” out of fear. Fear is one reason why a person may want to buy/steal a gun.

I agree that a gun is a tool but a gun’s primary purpose is to kill. A computer is not a killing device.

I do not live in West Virginia and do not know the numbers of people who “need” to use a gun for food. Where I live few people “need” a gun for obtain food. Do they need assault guns to kill food(doubt it). Inuit in the Arctic use a gun to procure food but they also buy food in stores and prefer that. People that live in large communities do not have ready access to hunt for food in Canada. Most of us in my province live far from areas where they might even use a gun on a farm.

[DuckiesDarling]

"I'll keep my rights and be proud to be an American."

I read this statement to include "I'm the kind of person proud to have so many mass murders in my country because I support outdated beliefs about the need to buy/steal guns".

Void


I never wrote that a person wants a gun “strictly” out of fear. Fear is one reason why a person may want to buy/steal a gun.

I agree that a gun is a tool but a gun’s primary purpose is to kill. A computer is not a killing device.

I do not live in West Virginia and do not know the numbers of people who “need” to use a gun for food. Where I live few people “need” a gun for obtain food. Do they need assault guns to kill food(doubt it). Inuit in the Arctic use a gun to procure food but they also buy food in stores and prefer that. People that live in large communities do not have ready access to hunt for food in Canada. Most of us in my province live far from areas where you might even use one on a farm.




Do not put other words into what I said and while we are at it are you fucking proud to try to build a thread on the bodies of dead kids??? Guess you must have a different value system in Canada cause here we are still in mourning.

[enkidu]

darkeyes: "Cobblers?" (post #55) Sorry, I don't speak English English, just American English. Would you indulge me with a translation?

After re-reading the message that started this thread, it seems motivations of having a gun was the intended topic, not gun control. So, from the original post, point by point...

As reasons are given, I see the following as increasingly less credible.

I can see a person who is terrified for their own safety wanting to buy a gun.
(I can not see that as a reason for many having justification for being given permission to buy a gun).
As stated earlier, a gun is a tool. Yes, it's a tool to wound or kill, so this gives it a second use as a tool to deter potential violence. Thus, some carry a gun for protection. Certain people, like those who carry large sums of cash, would want (and often do) carry a weapon because they're such an attractive target. If I'm not mistaken, Canadian law explicitly mentions this as one of the allowed reasons to carry a firearm. Others (as I PM'd Tenni) want a gun for protection because of others' harmful intent. Physics applies here: for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. "If someone wants to hurt me, I will want to protect myself." This doesn't mean they'll actually get one, or be allowed to get a concealed weapons permit (that's another topic).

I can not see a person wanting a gun for practice shooting at a target as a valid reason to be given permission to buy a gun.
(This one has clear gun control implications, but I'm going to sidestep them.) Olympic shooters and the International Shooting Sport Federation would take issue with this. How can someone be competitive if they can't practice? In order to practice, one must want -and then get- a gun to do so. Aside from sports, shooting practice can train one in discipline, hand-eye coordination and body control. A breath or twitchy hand can mean the difference between a (potential) hit at the center of a target and a total miss. This discipline can transfer over into other aspects of a person's life. Yes, someone can get a gun, go to a range and just fire away at the targets, but they're not getting out of it all that shooting has to offer. In a way, it's a lot like sex: there's the quick boink/shag or the more connected, mindful experience. You get out of it what you put into it. ... and I know some very dirty minds will draw all sorts of mental pictures from that one... shame on you! :)

Tenni, it's interesting that you wrote "buy a gun" in the two items above, but "own a gun" in the third. These are two different things, but I'll just use the common interpretation for the sake of argument - I've been accused of sounding like a lawyer (even by a few attorneys), and I take that as a compliment. :-) Here, however, it would be counterproductive.

I do not see it as my right to own a gun regardless of any country's constitution. Anyone who does, has issues that suggest mental instablity....imo.
Based on some quick reading, it seems Canada has had some form of gun control essentially from its beginning, so I wouldn't be surprised if the concept worked its way into Canadian social norms. The political culture in the United States is obviously different. The law of the land (in the USA) says it is an individual's right to bear arms DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA et al. v. HELLER (07-290) as the exemplar], therefore Americans making this claim are correct. Mental instability is another matter, and requires a psychological consult (and is therefore beyond the scope of this discussion). It's interesting to note that both American and Canadian law explicitly mention mental instability as an automatic disqualifier for gun ownership. The right to bear arms is subject to change according to the wont of the Supreme Court. For all we know, we could end up having the collective rights interpretation become the law of the land within the next few years, which would mean a drastic change in the meaning of "right to bear arms." Also keep in mind the USA's Constitution was written in 18th century English; for a discussion of those implications, check this out: http://www.english.illinois.edu/-people-/faculty/debaron/essays/guns.pdf I haven't read the whole thing (it's bloody 1 AM!) but the first few pages were very interesting.

[void()]

"I'll keep my rights and be proud to be an American."

I read this statement to include "I'm the kind of person proud to have so many mass murders in my country because I support outdated beliefs about the need to buy/steal guns".

Void


I never wrote that a person wants a gun “strictly” out of fear. Fear is one reason why a person may want to buy/steal a gun.

I agree that a gun is a tool but a gun’s primary purpose is to kill. A computer is not a killing device.

I do not live in West Virginia and do not know the numbers of people who “need” to use a gun for food. Where I live few people “need” a gun for obtain food. Do they need assault guns to kill food(doubt it). Inuit in the Arctic use a gun to procure food but they also buy food in stores and prefer that. People that live in large communities do not have ready access to hunt for food in Canada. Most of us in my province live far from areas where they might even use a gun on a farm.



But you said that fear seemed a driving reason to need a gun. I'm not saying you said it was the only reason. I am saying though, fear itself is not the only reason to need a gun. I'm stating a rational fact in order to progress mature and intelligent discussion.

You seem to be trying to bait and switch a lot. It won't float. I'm not angry, not upset, not irrational. Think I am being crystal clear as well. I could argue that a computer very well could be a tool used for killing. Let me point out the example our country's drone planes that let pilots sit in New Mexico and kill targets in Afghanistan, or Iraq, or wherever. That is made possible by computers, therefore, yes computers can be tools to kill with.

Another example lies in a computing device that can access pace makers, cause them to beat faster, or stop. That is computers used to kill again. I could list more examples but think I've clearly elucidated the point. Ink pens can be weapons used to kill, or typewriters. just think, Hitler had to pen or type up his orders. Lawyers sentence folks to die for capital offenses. They use pens, typewriters, computers.

As I said, what will be, will be. Ask yourself what the prohibition did in my country. Spirits were outlawed, crime rose related to that. It would be the same in outlawing guns, only outlaws would have them, guess that's me. I am so glad you urbanites do not need guns. But do not try being hypocritical in saying only guns kill, or that no one can not kill without a gun. Guns are not the issue, people are. People have used and abused technology/power forever, probably will for eternity and a day. I can not alter that nor am I fool enough to try.

I'm not the center of any universe but my own. In my stinking opinion, think many of us ought to realize the same thing I have, there. Doubt many will, though. You can lead a horse to water but damned if he'll drink until he's ready.

[darkeyes]

darkeyes: "Cobblers?" (post #55) Sorry, I don't speak English English, just American English. Would you indulge me with a translation?



It simply means bollox (bollocks or balls).. a word to (effectively here at least) denote that one considers another's words spoken as just so much bullshit. I have used it (and bollox) b4 often in forums and no doubt shall do again.

[void()]

The OP has more of a chance of being cracked with a baseball bat than being shot, in America, especially with his mouth.

Just about inclined to agree with you. No disrespect intended, Tenni. But yes, plenty of places
in America what see you getting clubbed for blabbing. Shoot, there are places in America you can
be killed for looking cross-eyed at someone. Then again, I find this is not wholly an American
problem but a global one. More the pity us for not living in utopia. Excuse me, back to living.

[Gearbox]

I'm not going to debate with anyone about gun issues, especially those of you who have been conditioned by your societies to give up your weapons. How quickly you forget how governments and criminals can take over your lives, or take your lives, after first removing your ability to fight them. Think of China, pre-WW II Europe, Russia, etc, etc.

I am a responsible citizen, served my country for 7 years and was honorably discharged, paid my taxes, earned my own way, and obey laws to the best of my ability. I feel I have earned the right to possess anything I want to buy, as long as I do it responsibly. Through hard work and planning ahead, I have come to an age where I can relax some, and enjoy the fruits of my labor...and that means I can have a street rod, a decent home, go fishing, hunting, and have what I need to protect myself and my loved ones.

The debate about weapons is never ending, but if you are ever are mugged, threatened, have your home invaded, don't worry, the police are only minutes away. Just call them (if you can) and they will do their best to come save you. I doubt, however, that the police can get there less than 5 minutes. In that length of time, a person without means of fighting back, can be decimated by whoever your adversary is.

I'm an old man, who has earned the right (by being a reasonable, law-abiding citizen, who is proficient with my weapons) to protect myself and my loved ones. I used to box, and was pretty fair at it, but no longer have that ability. I would be easy to defeat these days, by almost any means. But don't try it!

You, or anyone of your same ilk cannot convince me, no more than I can convince you, that your views are less viable than mine.

But, if your life has ever been in imminent danger, like mine has on two occasions, you'd be damned glad to have a weapon at hand and know how to use it responsibly and proficiently.

And that's all I'm gonna say about that!
I'm surprised at you. You think that Americans are not conditioned by your government?
Yes, you deserve to buy anything you like (within reason), have a nice home, go fishing etc. But how comes you don't deserve to live without fear of being attacked in the country that you fought for? How comes you need a gun to protect yourself and famly and feel that's acceptable?

No, I would not feel glad that I had a firearm when attacked. I'm no killer, unlike some here think they are and actualy boast about their willingnesss to kill to protect. It blurs the line between the attackers and themselves. It's that desensitised and glorified willingness to kill that society needs to battle. And you can't do that with a gun.
You deserve better than that IMO.

[tenni]

It might be interesting for people in the US to explain to the countries without this terrible fear why you have this fear and need to have guns and we do not?

We don't want guns nor do we need guns in our mind.

Is there no other way to make you feel safe from this fear that you seem to have?

Can you explain this to us without referencing your constitution?

Some of you can not even discuss this fear without threatening others. It must be horrible.

Good point Gear about conditioning.

[Gearbox]

You know we get it.. the OP doesn't like America.. well guess what most of the Americans on here don't like the OP so I guess the feeling is mutual. He continually posts bashing threads about a country he doesn't understand, doesn't live in, doesn't want to live in and doesn't really know a damned thing about, yet he tells us how we should think, feel and live. Kinda like how he tells others on here how to behave in relationships while not being in one... just ignore him.. it makes it so much easier.
This thread is not about America or Americans. It's about people who own firearms.
We know you have a personal quarm with the OP and that's perfectly ok. But please don't BS that your some patriotic American standing up for her country against some wicked non-American hater, when all your doing is serving your own little vendetta. Some dimwitted sheep actualy want to join your little clique and now think it's ok to just throw shit at Canada, anything non-American and Tenni himself.

That's what turns a forum into a shit slinging contest, when it's aimed to be a place to discuss.

Do not put other words into what I said and while we are at it are you fucking proud to try to build a thread on the bodies of dead kids??? Guess you must have a different value system in Canada cause here we are still in mourning.
THAT was low! Your most desperate attempt yet to sway others to share your dislike of Tenni. Shame on you for that!

[ckman314]

The second amendment was put in the constitution so we can protect ourselves from a tyrannical government. We should never give up our right to arm ourselves NEVER !!!!

[Annika L]

It might be interesting for people in the US to explain to the countries without this terrible fear why you have this fear and need to have guns and we do not?

We don't want guns nor do we need guns in our mind.

Is there no other way to make you feel safe from this fear that you seem to have?

Can you explain this to us without referencing your constitution?

Some of you can not even discuss this fear without threatening others. It must be horrible.

Good point Gear about conditioning.

I do not live in fear. Neither do I own a gun. I see these two items as related. I think that if you own a gun for self-protection, then you are pretty much living in fear by definition.

I agree with Gear about simply not being a killer. I also believe that those who live by the sword are dramatically more likely to die by the sword...and that they are no more free than those who live by peace.

But Tenni, you are aware that fear is irrational, right? Asking fearful people to explain their fears, to analyze them, to defend them? Tacky at best. I can understand a desire to grok another culture...but have a care with doing it. Your inquiry has shown little actual desire to understand and a good deal of desire to provoke and upset...that or ignorance, insensitivity, or stupidity. If it's intentional provocation, then I have to categorize that as stupid as well: who but a fool would intentionally provoke fearful people who have guns?

My best guess at why so many Americans are so fearful is that we have so much. Someone who has nothing has nothing to lose, and so lives largely without fear...except perhaps fear of not finding their next meal. People who have a LOT are in great danger of losing even half as much as they have, and so are afraid of losing any little bit of it. And since Americans work so hard for what they have, any loss is feared perhaps even more poignantly.

[tenni]

Annika
How do you know that I am not living in fear and yet do not want gun?


How do you know that I am not a recent victim of crime and know the irrational aspects of fear? Maybe, I am living with these irrational fears but neither I nor my society make it easy to want a gun as a solution. I can understand the fear.


When is it an appropriate time to deal with these societal fear issues and not insensitive? Some posters do not even seem to recognize their fear.


Do you really believe that US people are the only ones in the G8 countries with much and have worked hard to obtain it?

[pepperjack]

Guns don't kill people.....husbands who come early do!

[Annika L]

Annika
How do you know that I am not living in fear and yet do not want gun?


How do you know that I am not a recent victim of crime and know the irrational aspects of fear? Maybe, I am living with these irrational fears but neither I nor my society make it easy to want a gun as a solution. I can understand the fear.


When is it an appropriate time to deal with these societal fear issues and not insensitive? Some posters do not even seem to recognize their fear.


Do you really believe that US people are the only ones in the G8 countries with much and have worked hard to obtain it?

Huh?

Did I suggest that you don't live in fear? Did I suggest that the *only* people who live in fear are those who want guns? And did I suggest that I believe people in the US are the only ones who have worked hard for what they have obtained?

Mmm, no.

And it's nothing to do with the *timing* being inappropriate or insensitive (though some may want to debate that *rolls eyes*). It's to do with how you ask the questions. Grabbing someone by the scruff of their neck and shouting "Look at your fear! Look at it! Now explain this to me!" is not sensitive. Fear is a delicate issue. We don't want to have it, so it's easier not to face it, or to hold a totem up and say "because I have this I don't have fear"...and *much* much easier to just say "fuck off! you're not from here, so your opinions and curiosities don't matter!" If you truly want to understand another culture, then get to know it...don't just charge it with answering your demands.

[Annika L]

Guns do not kill people. Bad People and Spouses that come home early do.

Guns don't kill people.....husbands who come early do!

Hmm. So what you're suggesting is that we should ban spouses (or at least husbands), and not guns. Could be worth considering...it probably couldn't work *less* well.

[aheatseeker]

opinions are like assholes, everybody has got one. everybody should have a gun as no one else is responsible for your safety except you.

[OverNeath]

How comes you need a gun to protect yourself and famly and feel that's acceptable?

How would you propose to protect your family should an armed gunman enter your home and threaten you and yours with violence? Reason? Will you talk them away?
Will you call them names until they leave? I would be interested to know.

[Gearbox]

How would you propose to protect your family should an armed gunman enter your home and threaten you and yours with violence? Reason? Will you talk them away?
Will you call them names until they leave? I would be interested to know.
Trust me! If there was ANY chance of an armed gunman breaking into my home to threaten me and mine, I'd have moved home long before it could happen.
Why the Hell would I stay there?

[OverNeath]

Trust me! If there was ANY chance of an armed gunman breaking into my home to threaten me and mine, I'd have moved home long before it could happen.
Why the Hell would I stay there?

Nice sidestep. I asked a direct question. What would you do if an armed crimnial entered your home and threatened you with violence? You say you would already have moved?..BS You can't plan ahead to run away.

[tenni]

Huh?

Did I suggest that you don't live in fear? Did I suggest that the *only* people who live in fear are those who want guns? And did I suggest that I believe people in the US are the only ones who have worked hard for what they have obtained?

Mmm, no.

And it's nothing to do with the *timing* being inappropriate or insensitive (though some may want to debate that *rolls eyes*). It's to do with how you ask the questions. Grabbing someone by the scruff of their neck and shouting "Look at your fear! Look at it! Now explain this to me!" is not sensitive. Fear is a delicate issue. We don't want to have it, so it's easier not to face it, or to hold a totem up and say "because I have this I don't have fear"...and *much* much easier to just say "fuck off! you're not from here, so your opinions and curiosities don't matter!" If you truly want to understand another culture, then get to know it...don't just charge it with answering your demands.

Yes, Annika you did suggest that I do not live in fear or that is how your words came across to me. You stated that I shouldn't ask a person in fear to analyse their fear. I am asking and I ask from a position of someone living in fear. I know that my fears have some irrational basis. Some who post here spew words without reflection. They do not even know a probable basis of their statements. (fear rather than protect).

I may demand it as I am also living with the consequences of shoddy US gun policies in my country. There is an overflow of illegal guns entering both Canada and Mexico where they are used for violent purposes. Yes, Canada & Mexico should tighten how these guns enter our countries. Yes, Canada should also deal with why some Canuck people want guns. Therefore, why not ask the source why and ask them to stop the madness in poor logic.

Just look at the faulty logic posts by Never. Jezus Murphy man. Find your brain. fer fek sakes. Work on making your society a safe place so that you do not have to fear someone breaking in to your house with guns to harm you. Arming more people with such mentality only leads to more slaughter. If you can not move, try to fix it rather than add to the slaughter.

[OverNeath]

Just look at the faulty logic posts by Never. Jezus Murphy man. Find your brain. fer fek sakes. Work on making your society a safe place so that you do not have to fear someone breaking in to your house with guns to harm you. Arming more people with such mentality only leads to more slaughter. If you can not move, try to fix it rather than add to the slaughter.

So..I should reason with someone trying to hurt me and tell them that they should be a better human being and hug them? I can move anywhere I choose, but, I can be a man and stand up for what I have made of my life instead of being a simpering pussy such as yourself. The world is a mean place cupcake.

[Annika L]

Yes, Annika you did suggest that I do not live in fear
No, tenni, I did not. If my words "came across" to you that way, then fer fek sake find yer own brain and ask yourself why. I would not presume another's status with respect to fear...although I do assume that *most* humans do live in fear.

If you have reached a point where you are comfortable analyzing your own fear, that is wonderful...that is how it should be, and it is how we make progress. All I'm saying is that doing that on demand is another issue.

I agree with you that there is a lot of spewing here. That's a fear reaction. And a programming reaction (Americans are programmed rather deeply to believe in their Constitution, their rights, and their superiority, and not to question these things...just for clarity, that is not a statement defending us; just describing us). Attack someone's fears OR their programming, and yeah, they become irrational...and violent. It's no mystery. And yeah, most don't realize it, and my words will be sufficient to provoke similar attack...in fact I'm surprised this hasn't happened yet...except with you. Interesting, that.

Certainly you may demand that Americans change. Expecting that you can override their years of programming and fear is just silly, though. Maybe you do it out of your own desperation and fear. Ok, here's a voice a reason saying barging in and making demands wont fix a problem this deep...it's gonna need to be defused.

But your last paragraph puzzles me...are you talking to me or to Americans? Do you think I cannot see the irrationality? Do you presume that I am *not* doing anything? I *teach* for a living, sir...I'm doing all I can...possibly more than going into politics could accomplish. Even my posts here (which reach a much narrower audience) are an attempt. But if you're talking to Americans, rather than me...are you really suggesting they leave?

When I look at the irrational posts, I look at *all* of them.

[Argent 11]

Like you said its your opinion. So, here is mine. A gun is a tool nothing more nothing less. A pistol or rifle does not harbor ill will, it cannot get out of the house on its own, get behind the wheel of a car drive to someones home, aim itself at that person and fire a shot in anger.

It has nothing to do with living in fear it does have everything to do with not being FORCED to be a victim whether that be of your own government or at the hands of the bad people who pray upon the innocent. I look at my weapons as like owning a sweater, shovel or having auto insurance.

It is better to have them, know how to use them, than to have a desperate need for them, not have them and be a victim of the criminally insane. Those are the people with the mental instability you mentioned.

Once it is guaranteed worldwide that bad people who pray on others no longer exist and we ALL get along calmly in a civil manner with mutual respect regardless of race ,color creed, gender etc. etc. etc. etc. I will be the first person to dispose of my weapons. Till then it is my choice and I take 100% responsibility for my actions and use of these "tools". Her endeth the lesson.

[darkeyes]

Nice sidestep. I asked a direct question. What would you do if an armed crimnial entered your home and threatened you with violence? You say you would already have moved?..BS You can't plan ahead to run away.
As one who, a long time ago was assaulted in her own home, I can safely say that had I had a gun or any kind of weapon, it would not have saved me from assault neither would I have been in any position afterwards to get to the gun and use it on the perpetrator and many if not most assaults, even lethal ones, in the home are of that type..

I have been assaulted elsewhere (including by those who are supposed to be our protectors.. the police) but have generally found that my own brain and ability to defuse situations by talking to potential assailants has served me as well as any firearm.. and neither potential assailants or I was hurt... it is a very handy ability to have when u are gay, bi and/or female....it is all very well having a gun... but by having such a weapon makes it more likely that someone will pay the price and our society less peaceful and more violent... more mass tragedies such as Newtown will occur. I do not live in fear.. many do.. but few relatively speaking in my country live in fear..some in the media the media and some politicians would have us believe otherwise but that is the case....if we allowed the general population to walk about with firearms willy nilly.. I have no doubt that would change very quickly and I value human life.. all human life far too much to sit back and allow the part of the world I live in to be ruled by fear, and by arming the general population by allowing free and easy access to firearms, instilling paranoia and fear into society is exactly what we do...

A single human life is far more important to me whatever anyone wishes to infer, whether that life be bad or good man or woman, policeman or woman or criminal, civilian or soldier, than my right to walk about the face of this earth and carry a gun. By allowing free and easy access to guns, we make it far more likely that increasing numbers of ordinary citizens and police will lose their lives or have their lives ruined as a result of violent confrontation with criminals, police, neighbours or even friends than if those weapons were strictly controlled.. no matter what I am faced with in my life... I will not resort to a gun or ne kind of weapon and violence to settle any differences or scores I may have have with any other human being or to save myself from assault... maybe even death.. because I value not only my own life, but also that of the person who confronts me.. criminal or not... it is not simpering to attempt reason if I may borrow from another, later post of yours...I have done it and am anything but simpering.. I may have to do it again...

When I was little, I got my big brother to settle scores for me... I was little... I may still be physically. but for all that I have grown up and put way little things...

The world is indeed a mean place, but easy availability of guns makes it more mean than it need be, and human beings more mean than they need be... even ordinary normally law abiding and very decent citizens...

[Gearbox]

Nice sidestep. I asked a direct question. What would you do if an armed crimnial entered your home and threatened you with violence? You say you would already have moved?..BS You can't plan ahead to run away.
If you meant gunmen breaking into my home right here now (despite that being extremely improbable) I'd either try to defend myself or escape. I'd most likely end up dead.
But I don't need to prepare myself for that situation any more than I need prepare myself for a meteorite falling through the roof. So fearing either is a waste of time.

You quoted me asking, "How comes you need a gun to protect yourself and famly and feel that's acceptable?", which gives the premise that I'd EXPECT that scenario. So I was not sidestepping anything.


So..I should reason with someone trying to hurt me and tell them that they should be a better human being and hug them? I can move anywhere I choose, but, I can be a man and stand up for what I have made of my life instead of being a simpering pussy such as yourself. The world is a mean place cupcake.
This is what BS is! Anybody can stand up for themselves and tackle problems in society if they had the guts and conviction. But if your seriously sugesting that owning a firearm to protect your lot makes you a 'man', then your on the same page as an armed schoolgirl protecting her Hello Kitty purse, surely.;)

[OverNeath]

If you meant gunmen breaking into my home right here now (despite that being extremely improbable) I'd either try to defend myself or escape. I'd most likely end up dead.

And being dead benefits you or ones family HOW?


This is what BS is! Anybody can stand up for themselves and tackle problems in society if they had the guts and conviction. But if your seriously sugesting that owning a firearm to protect your lot makes you a 'man', then your on the same page as an armed schoolgirl protecting her Hello Kitty purse, surely.;)

I happen to like my Hello Kitty Purse and yes..I WILL protect my Hello Kitty Purse in any way I see fit in compliance with the laws of my country.

Let me ask this in terms you might understand...
If someone broke into your home (however improbable) and was raping your wife or child,AND, you had a gun available,would you shoot the assailant or let them continue the rape? If you say you wouldn't, You're a liar!

[gimmiemore]

Ditto what Gen11 stated in response #7...

[Gearbox]

And being dead benefits you or ones family HOW?



I happen to like my Hello Kitty Purse and yes..I WILL protect my Hello Kitty Purse in any way I see fit in compliance with the laws of my country.

Let me ask this in terms you might understand...
If someone broke into your home (however improbable) and was raping your wife or child,AND, you had a gun available,would you shoot the assailant or let them continue the rape? If you say you wouldn't, You're a liar!
What Saw film do you live in?:eek2:
I'd use my body to stop the rape. That is no lie! And please don't come back with "But what if your tied up and have a gun in your hand?".lol

No, being dead doesn't benifit my family. Your right there. That's why I prefer not to live in an area where I'd expect to get shot. That can happen in the UK in some parts too. I don't live in those parts because even if I chose to own a firearm, I wouldn't be around 24/7 to protect anybody.
So owning one would only be of use some of the time, and no use the rest of the time. Common sense would have me move my family to a safer location for their sake.

[OverNeath]

That's why I prefer not to live in an area where I'd expect to get shot

Nor do I. I actually live in a nice rural area. I travel through bad areas on my way to work daily,and,dont say to find another route to work,thats not feasible. All I'm trying to say is that I am prepared to react IF needs be. I am a law abiding citizen and would not be the owner of a concealed carry permit if I wasn't. The police aren't always quick to react and if matters fall to me, I have the means to protect myself and my family. As far as stopping a rape with your body...yea,go ahead,personally I like better odds for survival.


I don't live in those parts because even if I chose to own a firearm, I wouldn't be around 24/7 to protect anybody.

Thats why my wife is a carry permit holder too. :)
So go ahead and move yourself and family to an area where there is no crime so you dont have to worry about getting shot...I've heard Antartica is nice this time of year

[tenni]

Post 84
Very good points Annika! :)

I won’t enter in to a semantic discourse on whether I was misinterpreting your words about trying to rationalize with people and their fear. I do not assume that most people live in fear. I suspect that most in Canada do not live in fear. I suspect that you are referring to a broad fear. Interesting that you come from a culture of violence (including guns) and do assume most people live in fear. Based upon the comments about danger in the USA, I can tell you that those dangers and fears do not exist in most areas of Canada. We are on the same continent but very very different when it comes to fear.(I believe)

Good point about your citizens “programmed rather deeply to believe in their constitution, their rights and their superiority and not to question these things.” What do you suggest to wake your society up and start rationalizing about their want of guns? What do you discuss with young people?


My last paragraph was not to you. Sorry. I used the “never” by mistake for "Neath" as in Over Neath.

[Gearbox]

I actually live in a nice rural area.
I'm glad the world isn't a mean place for you any more, and you feel safe in that area.

I travel through bad areas on my way to work daily,and,dont say to find another route to work,thats not feasible. All I'm trying to say is that I am prepared to react IF needs be.
Have there been incidents in those areas that cause you to plan for them, or do you just feel vulnerable passing through them?

I am a law abiding citizen and would not be the owner of a concealed carry permit if I wasn't. The police aren't always quick to react and if matters fall to me, I have the means to protect myself and my family.
Would your neighbours need to get firearms just in case you go nuts one day? Just in case! Not saying you would. Just a precaution.:tongue:

As far as stopping a rape with your body...yea,go ahead,personally I like better odds for survival.
I'd rather not risk a bullet entering the victims by mistake. Call me picky.

Thats why my wife is a carry permit holder too. :)
She goes through those bad areas too?

So go ahead and move yourself and family to an area where there is no crime so you dont have to worry about getting shot...I've heard Antartica is nice this time of year
Hang on, I thought your little rural village was safe. Maybe you meant as long as your packing heat?lol
Well good news is, I won't need a pack of huskies. I'm already safe from getting shot. No guns here.;)

[Long Duck Dong]

let me put in a disclaimer, I am not using this in support of the pro gun debate, here is the link so people have a idea what happened http://www.thestate.com/2013/01/03/2575995/shooter-kills-3-people-injures.html#.UOYXTuSORyw

basically there was a shooting by a mentally ill man, killed 3, wounded 2 and was in turn shot, by police, in switzerland

now, what I found to be very interesting, is the swiss gun stats and crime rate, involving guns and the following is using the 2009 stats for all of the countries..... I researched this based on a comment that switzerland has such a low homicide rate for a country with such a large gun ownership rate, and I thought the guy got it wrong..... they were actually correct......

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/switzerland (http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/switzerland)
the swiss have 8 mill population, 3.8 mill guns estimated, the homicide rate non gun (53 ) is near equal to the homicide with a gun rate ( 50 approx ).... their non gun suicide rate ( 1313 ) is 5x the suicide by gun rate ( 239 )..... switzerland has very loose gun control laws, and a military service policy.....

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/new-zealand
NZ has 4.3 ( roughly ) mill people, 925,000 guns, the homicide rate non gun ( 134) is 11 times higher than homicide rate by gun ( 11 ) we have a non gun suicide rate ( 510 ) that is 10x our suicide by gun rate ( 47 ) and we have strict multi level gun control laws and no military service policy.....


http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states
the US has 313 mill people, 270 mill guns in private ownership ( estimated ) the homicide rate non gun ( 14,159 ) is just under 1.5x higher than the homicide rate by gun ( 9,146 ) a non gun suicide rate ( 32,559 ) that is near 2 x the gun suicide rate ( 17,002 ) the us has multi state ownership laws that vary and no military service policy

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-kingdom
the uk has 62 mill people, 4 mill guns in private ownership ( estimated ) the homicide rate non gun ( 724 ) is 15x higher than the gun homicide rate by gun ( 18 ) a non gun suicide rate ( 4,448 ) that is 41x higher than the gun suicide rate ( 101 ) the UK has multi state ownership laws that vary and no military service policy

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/canada
canada has 35 mill people, 9.9 mill guns in private ownership ( estimated ) the homicide rate non gun ( 610 ) is 3.5 times higher than the gun homicide rate by gun ( 173 ) a non gun suicide rate (3,611 ) that is 6 times higher than the gun suicide rate ( 586 ) canada has multi state ownership laws that vary and no military service policy


strange that the numbers do not support the stance that gun control works.... but they did reveal some interesting numbers that tend to show, its not really the guns that are the issue, its the country and if we put the population of each country on a par with the US ( IE multiple the stats for canada by 9.8 ), the numbers reveal something very interesting indeed, but I will let others do the maths and see for themselves, what i found.....

[DuckiesDarling]

I find it amusing that Gearbox loves to paint all gun owners with a wide brush and yes Annika as you pointed out Americans are "conditioned" and by that I mean raised to know and believe in our Constitution. Armed Forces swear to uphold the Constitution at all times, the President is the defender of the Constitution as sworn in his Oath of Office. It is the basis for the existence of our country, it's why we rejected, rather forcefully, British rule way back in the Revolutionary War days. We are taught to believe in our rights and to be able to count on them if something goes wrong ie Ernesto Miranda... the reason for the Miranda warning given out to all arrested persons. In reality, Miranda was an idiot, who while was right in the particular case was wrong the rest of his life and wound up dying tragically. There are numerous homicides all over the US every year but not all of them are committed by guns. Many Americans do not own a gun at all, but some own several. Growing up my dad had a gun cabinet with four rifles, two handguns and a reloading kit for him to make his own shells. He also owned a Black Powder rifle. One handgun was kept for protection, a .357 magnum, the other was my mothers Thomspon Contender, a single shot .22 used in competions for target shooting. The rifles included a .22 rifle from my Grandpa that my dad inherited that could hold like 17 shells, he used that to hunt squirrels which we ate. Another was a 30.06 he used to hunt deer, again something that was for food and for pleasure of hunting as well as pest control as given by tags by Fish and Wildlife. Another rifle was a 30/30 we kept by the living room door for coyotes.. .coyotes that were a vicious pest around farms and would kill both pets and livestock as well as attack kids.

We were raised to respect guns, we were taught to shoot and hit accurately. We used to save up milk jugs and fill with water and use them for target practice. I used to "walk soup cans" across a field with a rifle firing a full load. But we lived in the country on 28 acres and there was no danger of any bullets "straying" into an area where other people lived.

I was also taught to defend myself by any means necessary by both my father and the law enforcement members of my family that included State Troops as well as a Louisville Metro Narcotics cousin.. he taught me to fight dirty, hehe.

I was taught to use anything around me as a weapon if needed, so the premise that guns are the only thing we rely on for defense is false. We use keys, bats, knives, anything we could pick up and throw with reasonable accuracy and anything that could damage a person long enough for us to escape.. yeah ESCAPE that's what I said, not kill.

But do not mistake me, if I had a gun in my hand and someone threatened my life or the lives of my children or others I cared about, then yes it's a kill or be killed scenario. I haven't been in it yet, but I know in my heart if I had to... I wouldn't flinch anymore than I'd flinch if I put down poison to kill roaches.

So keep judging and then make sure you stay in your own countries cause with your opinion of mine, I damned sure don't want you here for your own safety.

[void()]

It might be interesting for people in the US to explain to the countries without this terrible fear why you have this fear and need to have guns and we do not?

We don't want guns nor do we need guns in our mind.

Is there no other way to make you feel safe from this fear that you seem to have?

Can you explain this to us without referencing your constitution?

Some of you can not even discuss this fear without threatening others. It must be horrible.

Good point Gear about conditioning.

It does not all reside in fear tenni, as I've said well before. Don't understand why you're unable to grasp
that. Guns are tools, they serve a purpose the same as computers. Let me guess, I use a computer
to communicate therefore I must be some poor terrorized little thing?

No, I really am not. I do have fears and reservations but do consider them rational.
Mental health pros agree with me on that. Sorry, I'm not listed as paranoid by any means.
If they list me as such, they should list themselves as such as well. So no, I don't
use the computer to communicate out of fear. The same applies to gun use / ownership.

Again though I'm sure you'll find some 'clever' way to devise semantics into saying what
you will. Go right ahead. I'm out of the discussion really. You either can not or will not
understand the views of others. If the later then there's no need of further discussion,
if the former, please do us a favor and come back when you can.

[void()]

I was also taught to defend myself by any means necessary by both my father and the law enforcement members of my family that included State Troops as well as a Louisville Metro Narcotics cousin.. he taught me to fight dirty, hehe.

I was taught to use anything around me as a weapon if needed, so the premise that guns are the only thing we rely on for defense is false. We use keys, bats, knives, anything we could pick up and throw with reasonable accuracy and anything that could damage a person long enough for us to escape.. yeah ESCAPE that's what I said, not kill.


ROFLMAO!!! Hon, there's never fighting dirty. You always fight to win. And yea, escape is main option.
Killing unless all other efforts or resorts haven't been tried is wrong. Guess some folks don't get it. Oh well.

[Long Duck Dong]

I look at the whole issue from a simple point of view.... if people do not want to own a gun, don't.... if people do not want to have a gun, don't.... if people want to believe they are safer without a gun, believe that......

the greatest threat to society, is not the gun and nor is it the people that live a quiet, peaceful life, its the people that think that the world will be a better place if we all fight more to make it a peaceful place, cos they are the ones that often throw the first punch....

[DuckiesDarling]

I will disagree with most of your sexual opinions, DD..........but Annie got her gun! Excuse me? Sexual opinions?? This is a thread about guns.. so even if most guys try to refer to their penis as a pistol being packed... not sure what you mean by sexual opinions.

[Gearbox]

So keep judging and then make sure you stay in your own countries cause with your opinion of mine, I damned sure don't want you here for your own safety.
After all that spiel about being a responsible gun owner and praising of guns, rights and constitutions, you warn that I and others wouldn't be safe in your country due to opinions?
Is that just a dumb xzenophobic comment, or do you realy think that America is that far gone back to the wild west?

I'm not painting gun owners with any kind of brush. But do wonder how much paranoia goes into the choice to own a gun. As you say, you haven't been in a situation that requires you to use a firearm on a person (thank God), but the chances of that happening are too high for some to not have one.
Those 'chances' maybe realistic, or not. But are dealt with by owning a firearm for protection, and not to remove self from percieved danger.
I'm just wondering if that would still be the case in a perfectly safe enviroment, as nowhere is perfectly safe to the paranoid.
America maybe a lot safer than Americans believe it to be. That disbelief may make it more dangerouse?:confused:

Another point is how having that firearm 'defense' makes some feel about taking a life, and Human life in general. With a gun in hand, finger on the trigger, you are judge, jury and executioner.
You DD, would go to mame first, which is a comfort. Your very last resort would be to regard Human life as that of a cockroach to save family from those who have that as a standard. That's understandable, it's what most would do.
But there are those who seem to boast about getting to that state of mind far too easier for comfort IMO. Some seem to view their ability to reach that junction quicker, as an achievement. That's worrying!
It's that view of Human life that we are suposed to avoid as civilised people. So I do agree that it's not firearms themselves that cause danger, but the culture of 'Kill or be killed' paranoid phylosophy. The mass ownership of firearms just helps to blur the lines.

You might not understand what I mean by that, and most probably think I'm having a crack at America.lol
Where I live there are very few Saints but also no justified reason to own a firearm. You may get burgled, assaulted etc, just like anywhere else. But it's not reasonable to expect your life to be in danger from another, even though murders have happened.
If a neighbour of mine told me he has a firearm to 'protect himself', he would be top of my list of potential dangers to lives here. As it would be a weapon of attack more than a tool of defense in my and rest of neighbours opinion. His mental health would be questioned. Police would be informed to protect us and children from him.
That's not as B&W where firearms are legal and more popular. The cranks are not as easy to pick out.
So 'what kind of person buys a gun' in one culture, can be VERY different in another.

[void()]

After all that spiel about being a responsible gun owner and praising of guns, rights and constitutions, you warn that I and others wouldn't be safe in your country due to opinions?
Is that just a dumb xzenophobic comment, or do you realy think that America is that far gone back to the wild west?

I'm not painting gun owners with any kind of brush. But do wonder how much paranoia goes into the choice to own a gun. As you say, you haven't been in a situation that requires you to use a firearm on a person (thank God), but the chances of that happening are too high for some to not have one.
Those 'chances' maybe realistic, or not. But are dealt with by owning a firearm for protection, and not to remove self from percieved danger.
I'm just wondering if that would still be the case in a perfectly safe enviroment, as nowhere is perfectly safe to the paranoid.
America maybe a lot safer than Americans believe it to be. That disbelief may make it more dangerouse?:confused:

Another point is how having that firearm 'defense' makes some feel about taking a life, and Human life in general. With a gun in hand, finger on the trigger, you are judge, jury and executioner.
You DD, would go to mame first, which is a comfort. Your very last resort would be to regard Human life as that of a cockroach to save family from those who have that as a standard. That's understandable, it's what most would do.
But there are those who seem to boast about getting to that state of mind far too easier for comfort IMO. Some seem to view their ability to reach that junction quicker, as an achievement. That's worrying!
It's that view of Human life that we are suposed to avoid as civilised people. So I do agree that it's not firearms themselves that cause danger, but the culture of 'Kill or be killed' paranoid phylosophy. The mass ownership of firearms just helps to blur the lines.

You might not understand what I mean by that, and most probably think I'm having a crack at America.lol
Where I live there are very few Saints but also no justified reason to own a firearm. You may get burgled, assaulted etc, just like anywhere else. But it's not reasonable to expect your life to be in danger from another, even though murders have happened.
If a neighbour of mine told me he has a firearm to 'protect himself', he would be top of my list of potential dangers to lives here. As it would be a weapon of attack more than a tool of defense in my and rest of neighbours opinion. His mental health would be questioned. Police would be informed to protect us and children from him.
That's not as B&W where firearms are legal and more popular. The cranks are not as easy to pick out.
So 'what kind of person buys a gun' in one culture, can be VERY different in another.

And this is why you remain on a farm. Not that we aren't in America.
But at least we can stand up to the farmers if things get hairy. What
can the English do? Pick up rocks?

Don't me wrong. I do understand you can do plenty with rocks.
Guns would help equalize things better. Maybe one could use
a gun as deterrent? It worked for forty odd years.

"America just nuked Japan. Don't fuck with America."

No one really did. And frankly I don't think they did
for 9/11 but then again we'll never know. Point being,
we were not attacked because everyone figured we'd
nuke them and say "Have a Coke & smile."

Guns can act in the same way. I don't think
specifically America is wild west, as much as
the world itself is. There again though, others
may differ in views. I guess it's okay to be naive.

[tenni]

Void
re post 96
Of course, I understand that a gun is a tool. Asking why a person wants a gun is to ask in part about what purpose that they want the gun for. I ignored commenting on your attempt to parallel a computer as a tool for a similar purpose as a gun. It just is not what you are attempting to connect a gun and a computer. I don’t want a computer as a killing tool. I want a computer for calculating, info gathering and communicating as you stated as well.

The role of the computer in your example is to communicate and calculate. Even in post 96 you refer to the computer as a tool of communication. In your drone plane scenario, it seems to me that the parallel object /tool to a gun is the rocket missile weapon that would be launched. Gun=rocket missile explosive. In fact the parallel may be best as pointing to the bullet of the gun and the warhead on the rocket missile released from the drone plane. I am not asking why people want rockets though.

I came to the word “fear” as a word that seemed to indicate the reasons about protection that posters were giving. At the root of things, it is fear that seems to drive people to want a gun. Not the only reason and some reasons may not involve fear but most given on this site seem to go back to fear. I do see those of us living in Canada, Britain as less fearful about wanting a gun. Nothing is clearer from comments from your country. Even the placement and reference about guns in your constitution was done out of fear of invasion.

I’m not sure what view that you are stating that I do not understand. It seems that we disagree on the connecting of gun and computers. Ok.

"If a neighbour of mine told me he has a firearm to 'protect himself', he would be top of my list of potential dangers to lives here. As it would be a weapon of attack more than a tool of defense in my and rest of neighbours opinion. His mental health would be questioned. Police would be informed to protect us and children from him."

Gear
I agree with you. Unless the person has experienced great violence personally and even then there are better ways to resolve the fear. Most of us would suggest counselling or moving to a place where they felt safer as you have suggested. Fortunately, we do not live in such a violent culture although the spew over does happen. There are very few murders in my city and none that come to mind that involved guns since a brutal abduction/murder with a gun by a mentally ill man in 1991. Gun violence is simply not on my mind as far as my own neighbourhood and city... nor anyone that I know. Neighbouring cities like Toronto do have gun violence but the general population is not afraid or wants a gun. Pockets of areas and gangs do though. Gang guns are found to have come from the USA illegally. Based on some of the comments some do not seem to want to end gun violence in their culture. Why a person wants a gun is on my mind.

[darkeyes]

Based on some of the comments some do not seem to want to end gun violence in their culture. I will not say that people do not wish to end gun violence, but I do believe that those who wish to retain guns as an essential part of their culture do so not out of any wish to defend very much but as a form of one upmanship, failing to see that in fact it creates the onedownmanship which is inevitably results in a callous disregard for human llife. This does not mean that all who own firearms are callous.. but it does mean that the society of which they are a part has a callous and uncaring attitude to the lives of other human beings... and it does mean that those who own firearms have less regard for human life than those who do not. Of course there are those who will dispute that.. fine.. a valid point of view, but in my opinion wrong... what it does do is to make people less aware of the damage they can inflict, far more so than having a baseball bat or knife for defence and encourages gun violence in their culture which is far more insidious and dangerous than ever is the knife or baseball bat...and gun violence in a gun culture begats more gun violence and less regard for the lives of other human beings....

If u must retain ur guns and ur gun culture in the US... just dont give me tosh that it is to defend against the state.. and bad government.. to defend against bad boys and girls breaking into ur home.. or invasion...it is to make u feel big and powerful..and know that by owning a gun u can take life if u choose and so be even more powerful... it is not about shooting targets or cans or pitchers..it is arrogance.. and u are welcome to it and am glad my country and my people will have none of it.....

But as me dad, a gr8 luffer of American western movies always said.. no matter how fast a draw a fast draw was, there was always someone faster... there is a lesson in that and nowt to do with fast draws.. u just need to think about it a bit...

[Long Duck Dong]

I was talking to a friend earlier that lurks on the site as a guest, and it was rather interesting to hear his comments.....

it went something like * fucking jesus christ, do those people ever listen to themselves.... they sound like like the people that they bitch about so much.... " I do not see a need for guns or a reason for people to want one..... and guns only cause death and destruction...... it sounds just like the other ANTI groups "

my reaction was to say yes

they went on to prove their point

the anti same sex marriage groups = we are happy with the state of our marriages and society, so lgbt people do not need to be married to be happy, they can be happy without same sex marriage and besides, it only leads to the down fall of society

the anti smoking groups= there is no valid reason for people to smoke, its dirty, its disgusting and we do not want them around us, the cost to the country is huge and why should we have to put up with it......

the anti fast food / junk food groups = we live healthy, we eat healthy, therefore people need to stop going to fast food junk food outfits as there is no need for them to eat fast food / junk food, they only do it cos they are lazy .....

the anti drug groups = we live happily without drugs, we do not need them and people that use drugs are fools because they are destroying themselves and causing so much harm to themselves and others

the list goes on and on, but he had already made his point without having to spew out a long list cos I have heard it all before.........

I would be a lil more inclined to take people a lot more seriously if they were not talking about how safe their communities were cos of the lack of guns in their community... cos that speaks loudly of singling out groups that actually have NO effect on the people, and points more to the fact that they just want to bitch about somebody cos they have nothing better to do.......

seriously, the majority of anti gun advocates in NZ, have no idea I have a gun.... yet they paint me as part of the ongoing threat to the safety of people and part of the gang element with their illegal guns and drugs, the hunters that do not practice safe gun usage, the people that use guns to go on a rampage, the military personnel that serve overseas and are involved in fire fights, as proof of the destruction that guns, NOT People, but GUNS, can do..... then they totally ignore the fact that olympic target shooters use OMGWTFBBQ.... GUNS..... and somehow they are responsible mature adults that are no risk to the general public...... see the issue there.... guns are the problem, not the people, unless we like the people that are using the guns, then its the people that are the problem, not the guns.....

I have had people tell me how wrong guns are and how dangerous they are, then apologise to me and tell me that they were not really talking about me, as I drop a slab of wild pig or venison on their table....so I have quietly reminded them how I did time for killing a guy with a gun... and watch them try to side step that by saying what I did was right but wrong etc etc......

they either have a opinion and stand by it when they are in a safe situation like their own home or in forums or they flip flop worse than a fish out of water when they are confronted with the * kind of people * that they are sitting in judgement of .....

so once again, if you do not like guns, don't own one, don't have one, do not associate with people that MAY have one that you do not know about, do not go near the police if they are armed with a gun or in possession of one in their police car etc..... but do not judge us in the same way that you dislike others judging you, it makes hypocrites out of people like you.......

I am thankful for the pacifists and peace lovers that remind us of how great peace can be.... and I am also thankful for the people that have fought and died in wars and combat so that we can live in a mainly peaceful society, as best as possible...... but I can not help but notice once again, that its the * peaceful people that live in their safe communities, that threw the first *punch *....

[darkeyes]

I was talking to a friend earlier that lurks on the site as a guest, and it was rather interesting to hear his comments.....

it went something like * fucking jesus christ, do those people ever listen to themselves.... they sound like like the people that they bitch about so much.... " I do not see a need for guns or a reason for people to want one..... and guns only cause death and destruction...... it sounds just like the other ANTI groups "

my reaction was to say yes

they went on to prove their point

the anti same sex marriage groups = we are happy with the state of our marriages and society, so lgbt people do not need to be married to be happy, they can be happy without same sex marriage and besides, it only leads to the down fall of society

the anti smoking groups= there is no valid reason for people to smoke, its dirty, its disgusting and we do not want them around us, the cost to the country is huge and why should we have to put up with it......

the anti fast food / junk food groups = we live healthy, we eat healthy, therefore people need to stop going to fast food junk food outfits as there is no need for them to eat fast food / junk food, they only do it cos they are lazy .....

the anti drug groups = we live happily without drugs, we do not need them and people that use drugs are fools because they are destroying themselves and causing so much harm to themselves and others

the list goes on and on, but he had already made his point without having to spew out a long list cos I have heard it all before.........

I would be a lil more inclined to take people a lot more seriously if they were not talking about how safe their communities were cos of the lack of guns in their community... cos that speaks loudly of singling out groups that actually have NO effect on the people, and points more to the fact that they just want to bitch about somebody cos they have nothing better to do.......

seriously, the majority of anti gun advocates in NZ, have no idea I have a gun.... yet they paint me as part of the ongoing threat to the safety of people and part of the gang element with their illegal guns and drugs, the hunters that do not practice safe gun usage, the people that use guns to go on a rampage, the military personnel that serve overseas and are involved in fire fights, as proof of the destruction that guns, NOT People, but GUNS, can do..... then they totally ignore the fact that olympic target shooters use OMGWTFBBQ.... GUNS..... and somehow they are responsible mature adults that are no risk to the general public...... see the issue there.... guns are the problem, not the people, unless we like the people that are using the guns, then its the people that are the problem, not the guns.....

I have had people tell me how wrong guns are and how dangerous they are, then apologise to me and tell me that they were not really talking about me, as I drop a slab of wild pig or venison on their table....so I have quietly reminded them how I did time for killing a guy with a gun... and watch them try to side step that by saying what I did was right but wrong etc etc......

they either have a opinion and stand by it when they are in a safe situation like their own home or in forums or they flip flop worse than a fish out of water when they are confronted with the * kind of people * that they are sitting in judgement of .....

so once again, if you do not like guns, don't own one, don't have one, do not associate with people that MAY have one that you do not know about, do not go near the police if they are armed with a gun or in possession of one in their police car etc..... but do not judge us in the same way that you dislike others judging you, it makes hypocrites out of people like you.......

I am thankful for the pacifists and peace lovers that remind us of how great peace can be.... and I am also thankful for the people that have fought and died in wars and combat so that we can live in a mainly peaceful society, as best as possible...... but I can not help but notice once again, that its the * peaceful people that live in their safe communities, that threw the first *punch *....
U dont haff gimme a laff at the poop u rite at times Duckie... do me a fave and go join up with the establishment once and for all...

[Long Duck Dong]

no thanks fran...... I would perfer to sit quietly and enjoy a smoke ( bad ), enjoy a drink ( bad if I drink too much ) have a burger ( bad ) watch a few hours of tv ( bad ) and shoot the breeze with my friends ( thats talk with my friends, not fire a gun into the wind ) and leave the rest of the world to talk about how much of my life is so wrong.....

I wanna share this with you, fran... its about philip alpers a NZ anti advocate whose son was killed by a gun.....he is one of the raving morons that I am refering to as the anti gun advocates that live in their own reality.... read it and you may see why I have a dislike of anti gun advocates and NOT people that are not interested in owning or having a gun... and its cos there is a huge difference between the two.... just like there is a huge difference between a gun owner and a person that has a gun

http://www.ssaa.org.au/research/2005/2005-07-22_philip-alpers-a-most-dubious-researcher.html

[void()]

I ignored commenting on your attempt to parallel a computer as a tool for a similar purpose as a gun. It just is not what you are attempting to connect a gun and a computer. I don’t want a computer as a killing tool. I want a computer for calculating, info gathering and communicating as you stated as well.

And in so ignoring the comparison of a computer capable of use as a killing tool, the same as a gun,
you ignore other valid reasons for desiring a gun and expressly fixate upon fear as the primal rationale.

Whew, mouthful of a sentence but true by your own admission as evidenced here. A gun can be used
to kill other people, no doubt. It can also be used save other people as in protecting them from
'bad guys'. It also can double in helping attain food to save others and self.

Computers can be used to gather information to protect against 'bad guys'. You can gather
information on gardening to feed others and self. A computer can be used to kill others the same
as a gun.

See? It is not an issue of the tool itself but of the person/s utilizing them. But no, you keep
settling on fear as prime rationale. Okay, fine it is fear what makes one seek food if we're
honest. Without food we don't survive. I guess it's fear that makes us breathe as well.

Nor is it arrogance as someone else stipulates, Fran. Sorry, I don't need a gun to
feel superior to anyone. Without or without a gun, I'm a person the same as you.
That's not arrogance, it's someone utilizing a tool, same as if it was corcle.

[Long Duck Dong]

lol void, you know as well as I do, that the opposing argument is gonna be that a guns primal purpose is to main / kill ( have to exclude movie prop guns, tranquilizer guns, target pistols and rifles etc cos they are actually NOT guns used to main and kill, but generally tools )

that the usage of a gun for defense and protection, is based in fear ( exclude defense of country, dealing with invading country in war time, cos its too hard to call that a fear, when it has been a reality for many countries and many people, also exclude swat / armed offenders squad / police cos they actually have to deal with armed criminals that are extremely dangerous )

and that because some people live in a safe community without any real gun crime, and safe in another country, that gun owners are at fault the world round for the culture of violence that exists in the US... ( exclude the fact that most shootings are not done by gun owners or legal guns or sane people ( read that as covering people with mental illnesses that also act in a responsible manner with firearms and do not endanger the general public )

and finally that people are happy to listen to us as long as we say that we are a people full of fear and mentally unstable because we have guns and that if we live in the US, we are brainwashed and incapable of seeing reason.....

[tenni]

post 109
Void
It is increasingly difficult to work through comments that have only peripheral connection to my thread topic.

As far as your comment about about guns to obtain food, I refer you to my OP where I mention hunting for food as a reason why someone might want a gun. I’m not sure how valid that point is for where you live but it is not the primary way of obtaining food where I live. We buy our meat in grocery stores here but I do recall pointing out that in northern Canada the Inuit use guns as opposed to other traditional hunting tools such as spears to hunt food. Food may be obtained in many ways beyond the use of a gun.

Whether computers may be used to gather information on bad or good guys is not relevant to my thread topic. I am unaware of an actual computer killing a person directly by ejecting an object from a computer to penetrate a human heart to kill the person. I’m aware of the gun killing a person by ejecting a bullet to penetrate a person's heart. Computers and why you want a computer is not directly connected to my thread topic either.

Your point about it not being the gun that kills but the person has some validity but again is off topic of this thread. ;) A person wants a gun to kill another person when they could strangle them, poison them etc. If no one had a gun other methods would be found..less efficient perhaps. Maybe more would survive any attack on them.

Are you using a cultural iconic comments (people not guns kill) that people in your culture use to validate each other iregardless of the topic if it connects to guns? It seems like a mantra? This mantra about people and guns is not that relevant to my thread topic either though as far as I can determine.

[enkidu]

Long Duck Dong:

seriously, the majority of anti gun advocates in NZ, have no idea I have a gun.... yet they paint me as part of the ongoing threat to the safety of people and part of the gang element with their illegal guns and drugs, the hunters that do not practice safe gun usage, the people that use guns to go on a rampage, the military personnel that serve overseas and are involved in fire fights, as proof of the destruction that guns, NOT People, but GUNS, can do..... then they totally ignore the fact that olympic target shooters use OMGWTFBBQ.... GUNS..... and somehow they are responsible mature adults that are no risk to the general public...... see the issue there.... guns are the problem, not the people, unless we like the people that are using the guns, then its the people that are the problem, not the guns.....

This is what you would call "politics." :eek2:

[Long Duck Dong]

people kill, using guns, people kill, using cars, people kill, using knives, people kill, using bombs....... I see a common factor here..... guns, cars, knives and bombs should all be banned cos they are dangerous and a threat to human life........ cos there is no way in hell that people can be responsible for their own actions......

sorry officer, I know I was drunk but the car decided that it wanted to for a drive, so it made me get into the car and then it went 140 mph down the road then crash into another car, killing the other driver, you need to arrest the car for kidnapping, endangering my life, forcing me to sit behind the steering wheel when I had been drinking and knew that I was not meant to be driving......

sorry officer, I was only holding the knife, the innocent person decided to walk into it 38 times then they slipped on their own blood and fell to the ground so I had to kneel over them and hold the knife in such a way that they could continue to impale themselves on it repeatedly......

sorry officer, the gun jumped into my hand and then discharged itself 6 times at the person, I was reaching for the baseball bat cos I believe that smacking them in the head 6 times would be a less violent way of dealing with the situation, so its the guns fault......


I used to hunt with a rifle, why ?? cos one bullet can save me a couple of $100 in food bills.. and I could feed 3 families for a few days to a week, for 36 cents ( deer or wild pig or farmers sheep with permission ) try doing that at a grocery....... I used to do fur trapping, and the idea of poisoning a animal ( cyanide was legal but a indiscriminate killer, and it posed a risk to any animal or human that went near it, and yes warning signs get posted, but humans being humans....... ) gin traps left the animal to suffer for hours on end until the traps were cleared and the * humane * traps ( roflmao ) half strangled opossums and often failed to minimise the suffering of the animal or ensure a quick death...... and as any hunter would know, animals like deer and wild pigs are not known for standing still while you walk up to them with a knife and ask them to stand still so you can stab them.... a well aimed shot, with the intent of bringing the animal down as fast as possible, was my intention.....

as for the meat in the grocery, go and see how some of those animals are killed.... cos its anything BUT humane in some cases, and thats without using a gun

incidently, its actually classed as more humane ( in NZ ) to smack a animal in the head with a sledgehammer or iron bar to stun them before you cut their throats, than it is to use a gun on a animal cos a gun doesn't always lead to a painless death...... well sorry, but having been smacked in the head with a basebat ball myself, it fucking hurts and I can not remark on a bullet that turns my brain to curds cos I have never had that happen to me, but according to medical professionals, I would not really be in a situation of remembering much of anything cos I would be dead..... so yes, even as a killer, I have a compassionate streak in me, I do not like to see animals suffer and do my best to ensure it doesn't happen......

dammit, I should not have personal experience about hunting, working on a farm etc... cos I can show how a gun can be used effectively when compared to other forms of killing animals that people generally do not know about...... and as for the inuit, they also club seals to death, I quess thats ok cos its not using a gun....

[tenni]

off topic
" as for the inuit, they also club seals to death, I quess thats ok cos its not using a gun...."

Uh..no those are white people living in Quebec and Newfoundland killing baby seals. (reportedly more human and similar to clubbing a large fish in a fishing boat)

The inuit traditionally used a harpoon and kill the seal when it comes to a breathing hole. Today, they use rifles as well as harpoons. I'm not sure but harpoons may be more efficient when trying to retrieve the seal as it goes under the ice.

As far as a person having a gun with a history of mental illness, PSTD and with a criminal record for having stated killing humans (one day it is drunk while driving ..other days statements about using a gun to kill humans). I think that with such a record that this is not a man that I would like living near me. I wonder what countries would let him in to their country..let alone own a gun?

[Long Duck Dong]

off topic
" as for the inuit, they also club seals to death, I quess thats ok cos its not using a gun...."

Uh..no those are white people living in Quebec and Newfoundland killing baby seals.

The inuit traditionally used a harpoon and kill the seal when it comes to a breathing hole. Today, they use rifles as well as harpoons.

As far as a person having a gun well with a PSTD with a record for having stated killing humans (one day it is drunk while driving ..other days statements about using a gun to kill humans). I think that with such a record that this is not a man that I would like living near me. I wonder what countries would let him in to their country..let alone own a gun?

mmm I was 16, drunk, in charge of a car,..... fucking stupid thing to do and I have spent the rest of my life paying for that and regretting it....
the PSTD came in part from military service in my country...
I did time for shooting a guy that broke into my home and tried to rape my sister....
I have a gun in the house, its not there for killing people, its there in case its ever needed and it can be used for a number of reasons, IE I have 4 cats, if one gets hit by a car, I want to be able to humanely end the suffering ASAP, I can use the gun on a farm to kill a sheep to fill the freezer etc.... and the only people that are at risk with me having a gun, are the fuckwits that break into my house and threat me or any other person in the house.......

I have been to asia, australia, the US, canada ( return plans got side tracked ), planning on going to the uk and scotland etc... and I live in NZ....

I am also a registered lethal weapon because of my martial arts background, and that means that I risk a higher level of charge if I hit somebody as opposed to a average joe blogs, I have military training so in the event of a war, I can be asked to step up to the plate in defense of that country, and it also means that if my country ever comes under martial law, that I can be asked to assist.....

lets ignore the fact I have first aid training and I can assist in the event of a shooting ( twice I have rendered first aid at a accidental hunting accident where people got shot ) I have gun safety certs, sharp shooter certs, my other guns are stored off the property in a secure place that carries a A+++ rating for gun storage ( a private home ) I have a clean record in regards to firearms safety, no warnings, no infringements etc, and I am known to the police as a person that has faced off against people that have been armed with weapons, including guns, and I was UNARMED and took them down.....

on my police record it actually states that I pose a greater risk to a person that is armed and dangerous, than they do to me and that as a risk factor, I am below the average joe because of my training and cos of the fact I believe in risk management and risk reduction to myself and others, which has a lot to do with the fact that I moved half way down my country to distance myself from the criminal element and my own criminal past.......

btw I am a person, not a IT......

am I permitted to live on this earth and breath the same air as you, or is that a threat to you as all

[Long Duck Dong]

now, points of fact, a knife and a baseball bat / iron bar / plank of wood etc, they do not need to be registered or licensed, you do not have to be of sound mind in order to own any of them, I can go into most shops and buy them off the shelf without needing to have my photographic ID and firearms licence, there is no age restriction on them, they are not regarded as a dangerous weapon under most circumstances......the majority of people have used one or more in their lives... they have ( for the most part ) a legit reason for using them... and mentally ill and unstable people have easy access to them....

yet they are two of the most often used weapons in crimes, assaults, home invasions etc..... so why do people not live in fear of them and wish to move to another location because their neighbour has a knife in the kitchen and their son has a baseball bat in their room and there are planks of wood on the fence etc... potentially lethal weapons in plain view......

its generally because the fear of the item, mainly happens when it becomes a visible threat to a person.... and people deal with potentially lethal weapons every day in their own homes, without stopping to realise how much damage that they could do with the items... or what can be done to them with the items..... blissful ignorance is a wonderful thing at times.....

part of the reason why knives are not seen as a lethal weapon, is because people use them everyday, and they do not see themselves as a threat to themselves or anybody else for that matter, the same type of thinking as most people with guns.... tho most people with guns are conscious that there is a risk factor with guns, so they take extra care to limit that risk to themselves and others..... but the same care and attention is not applied to knives, baseball bats etc etc etc.....

often the argument is used that comparing knives and baseball bats to guns is like comparing apples and oranges, and thats true... knives and baseball bats are more likely to be used as weapons than a gun... easier to obtain.... easier to get rid of.... can be used without making much noise and can actually do more damage to the human body than a gun in a lot of cases..... and most people keep and use knives without fear, while they attach a fear to firearms and the people that use them.....

so ladies and gentlemen of the jury.... I put it to you.... who is the more dangerous person in regardless to access to a lethal weapon, the ability and skill to use that weapon, and therefore who, by reason of logic, should we fear more...... and why don't we ???? I put it to you that we do not see ourselves as people capable of inflicting injury and harm with the items in our kitchen therefore our usage of a potentially lethal weapon is not seen as a issue, but its acceptable to paint people with a gun, as people in control and possession of a potentially lethal weapon and therefore a risk to our well being..... which, ladies and gentlemen, is a irrational fear of a threat that doesn't exist as there is no gunman anywhere near as close to us, as the lethal weapons sitting in our kitchens.....

[void()]

post 109 Void It is increasingly difficult to work
through comments that have only peripheral connection to my thread
topic.

As far as your comment about about guns to obtain food, I refer you to
my OP where I mention hunting for food as a reason why someone might
want a gun. I’m not sure how valid that point is for where you live
but it is not the primary way of obtaining food where I live. We buy
our meat in grocery stores here but I do recall pointing out that in
northern Canada the Inuit use guns as opposed to other traditional
hunting tools such as spears to hunt food. Food may be obtained in many
ways beyond the use of a gun.

Whether computers may be used to gather information on bad or good guys
is not relevant to my thread topic. I am unaware of an actual computer
killing a person directly by ejecting an object from a computer to
penetrate a human heart to kill the person. I’m aware of the gun
killing a person by ejecting a bullet to penetrate a person's heart.
Computers and why you want a computer is not directly connected to my
thread topic either.

Your point about it not being the gun that kills but the person has some
validity but again is off topic of this thread. A person wants a gun to
kill another person when they could strangle them, poison them etc. If
no one had a gun other methods would be found..less efficient perhaps.
Maybe more would survive any attack on them.

Are you using a cultural iconic comments (people not guns kill) that
people in your culture use to validate each other regardless of the
topic if it connects to guns? It seems like a mantra? This mantra about
people and guns is not that relevant to my thread topic either though as
far as I can determine.

I apologize for your perceived difficulty. My argument for gun use and
ownership has been exceedingly concise, sound. The examples provided
of computers used to kill have also been on topic and to the point. I
never said computers ejected projectiles. I'm sure they certainly could
be made to do so given time, ingenuity.

The point with computers used to kill lies in them having access to one
another. Computers may communicate with satellites, these could be used
to track and target individual/s. From there, a computer could be used
to control a drone plane to attack said individual with whatever tool
system it had on board, be it guns, missiles or rotten eggs.

That is pretty clear cut and to the point. If you have difficulty seeing
the relevance, that's your problem and not mine. Yes, I am aware of
using snares, dead fall pits, tiger gates in the use of hunting. You
are correct, one needs not use a gun to hunt. It makes it much simpler,
though.

As it seems you continually "have difficulty" in understanding my points
or thinking them to be valid, I can only presume you are choosing to do
so. I have speculations as to why you or anyone may choose to be so.
Frankly, I'm not here for pissing wars. You go right on ahead blaring
out to the world how superior Canada is over America. Doesn't matter to
me but to say I don't care.

As to my use of the idiom, "guns don't kill people, people do"; That
isn't cultural as much as a matter of fact and common sense. I suppose
though you "have difficulty" grasping that as well. I am really inclined
to start doubting how well educated you boast of being, "having all this
difficulty" understanding simple and clear logic.

My isn't Canada so vastly superior as to educate you so well? That's
rhetorical and not in wont of reply, I use it as sarcasm in case your too
dull and would "have difficulty" in grasping it. I would presume French
Canadian may have grasp of such wit, but with you I'm not sure.

I can only conclude you're choosing to "have difficulty" in order to
prolong drama and to troll, to browbeat everyone about your assumed
superiority. Well, I'm sorry. You can quit shooting in this barrel of
fish because no fish are in it. Have a nice day.

[darkeyes]

so ladies and gentlemen of the jury.... I put it to you.... who is the more dangerous person in regardless to access to a lethal weapon, the ability and skill to use that weapon, and therefore who, by reason of logic, should we fear more...... and why don't we ???? I put it to you that we do not see ourselves as people capable of inflicting injury and harm with the items in our kitchen therefore our usage of a potentially lethal weapon is not seen as a issue, but its acceptable to paint people with a gun, as people in control and possession of a potentially lethal weapon and therefore a risk to our well being..... which, ladies and gentlemen, is a irrational fear of a threat that doesn't exist as there is no gunman anywhere near as close to us, as the lethal weapons sitting in our kitchens..... diff tween knife and gun is its a bit more difficult 2 slaughter 25 peeps (or more) in 25 seconds(or less) from 25 metres (or more) with a knife, Duckie.... and doesnt need haff the effort... close proximity not required... course u can thow a kitchen knife... but is easier 2 get out of the way of a thrown knife kitchen or otherwise than it is 2 get out of the way of a bullet... cant see a bullet... and u try throwing 25 or more knives at peeps in 25 seconds or less.. try carrying the bloody things... 1 knife course ya can kill 25 peeps but is easier 2 defend against wether or not u have a gun...and its a tadge more diff to do that in 25 secs... and ther is no way u can do that from 25 metres in 25 secs... am not denying that kitchen or ne other kind of knives r dangerous in the wrong or even the right hands... not denying that here at least more peeps r killed by knives of all kinds than by gun and bullet... and more peeps r killed by car accident than either or both taken together.. but I am saying that when they r used with lethal intent, they r far more dangerous and unpredictable than ne knife whether in the hands of the trained or untrained, the sane or the crazed...

[tenni]

"IE I have 4 cats, if one gets hit by a car, I want to be able to humanely end the suffering ASAP, I can use the gun on a farm to kill a sheep to fill the freezer etc.... and the only people that are at risk with me having a gun, are the fuckwits that break into my house and threat me or any other person in the house......."

These are reasons for wanting a gun. I accept that wanting a gun to kill a farm animal for food is valid imo.

If someone lives in a city, I find it illogical to want a gun to kill a pet should they be hit by a car. I do not want a gun to kill my pet should they be hit by a car. I don't think that makes sense except that it illustrates a quick solution to a very rare possibility in my community. I do not recall seeing a dead cat on our streets. Mind you we have services to call if an animal is found suffering due to being hit by a car or at large. No, wanting a gun to kill an animal that just may be hit by a car is pulling the leg of reason. If you live in a rural area then a gun for killing farm animals or road kill of farm cats/wild animals makes sense to me.

Again, the response that the writer wants a gun for the possibility that there might be a home invasion. It is better to spend money on securing your home. I do believe that if a person wants to burglar a home the person will be able to break in. It may be wiser to move to a community with less crime or support better policing and other methods of reducing crime than to want a gun to kill an invader. Removing guns from your society is probably a better solution to create a peaceful and safe environment. Or if your fears are not based on crime in your community seek counselling for this unresolved fear. If you live in a war zone and there is insufficient policing and law enforcement, then I am sorry for you. I hope that your country becomes peaceful again or that you are given sanctuary in another neighbouring peaceful country. It makes sense to me that you would want a gun until you are able to get to a peaceful country.

if you have a history of mental illness and previously been jailed for murder, then no you should not be permitted to have a gun in civilized societies just because you might have an opportunity to kill a cat hit by a car sometime in the future. The point that such a person even considers these remote possibilties states a lot about their present psychological perspective. That is pure stupidity for a society to permit such a person to have a gun imo. History should not be permitted to repeat itself. Bravado and macho statements do not convince many people that such a person should have a gun and may indicate a person with an unrealistic, violent approach to resolving conflict.

[elian]

OK, so I thought about this and I tried to see it from the perspective of a non-American. So let's say that you are looking at a gun sitting there on a table all by itself, it's just you and the gun in the room. I can easily imagine someone thinking that a gun is a tool only used to kill things, irrevocably - and deciding that if they pick up that tool that means they want to irrevocably kill things...so they say to themselves, "I don't need to irrevocably kill anything, that's not who I am." ..and they can't imagine why anyone else would pick it up either.

Cell phone manufacturers have worked very hard to make sure that the perception of the cell phone is that it is an indispensable part of you. For a certain percentage of the population they have succeeded very well. In reality, it is just a tool, a phone that you can use to make calls but some people literally freak out when they lose their phone. They feel as if, "my LIFE is on that phone".

In America not everyone owns a gun, some of the people would even agree with the first statement about not needing one, but for the people that do own guns, owning a gun is a lot like owning a cell phone. It is a personal decision that people make. Just like with a cell phone whether they really need one or not, whether it's healthy for them or not .. they are very uncomfortable when someone takes that freedom away. They may never USE the phone or the gun - but just the idea of having it there makes them feel empowered and safe.

But you say, why? Well it sounds rather like a five year old .. and in some respects you are right,.but you aren't going to change the mind of everyone. You can appeal to people's rational side. You can say, well call animal control when there is a diseased animal in the road but America is a big country, we don't have government services that reach to every corner of the land in a timely manner. People tend to be self-sufficient, I agree that there is a fine line between vigilante and self-sufficient but most people are rational enough not to cross that. There is also enough space to move - so if your neighbor doesn't like you being on the land you either learn to live with each other or you move to a better location.

We do need to learn the power of community and relying on others in this country. When you say, "relying on others" to an American in a public forum those words have a connotation of meaning that the individual doing the relying is weak...all people should be self-sufficient. We have been programmed to believe that "we all need to have our own" - it's great marketing..but doesn't always work out in the real world where social relationships are important. The truth is none of us live in a vacuum...in fact the greatest gift we can both give and receive at the same time is to use our power to help others.

[Long Duck Dong]

diff tween knife and gun is its a bit more difficult 2 slaughter 25 peeps (or more) in 25 seconds(or less) from 25 metres (or more) with a knife, Duckie.... and doesnt need haff the effort... close proximity not required... course u can thow a kitchen knife... but is easier 2 get out of the way of a thrown knife kitchen or otherwise than it is 2 get out of the way of a bullet... cant see a bullet... and u try throwing 25 or more knives at peeps in 25 seconds or less.. try carrying the bloody things... 1 knife course ya can kill 25 peeps but is easier 2 defend against wether or not u have a gun...and its a tadge more diff to do that in 25 secs... and ther is no way u can do that from 25 metres in 25 secs... am not denying that kitchen or ne other kind of knives r dangerous in the wrong or even the right hands... not denying that here at least more peeps r killed by knives of all kinds than by gun and bullet... and more peeps r killed by car accident than either or both taken together.. but I am saying that when they r used with lethal intent, they r far more dangerous and unpredictable than ne knife whether in the hands of the trained or untrained, the sane or the crazed...


one simple point, fran, the majority of the worlds worst serial killers spent years killing, some are estimated to have a body count in excess of 400 ) and the weapon of choice was most times, NOT a gun, there is no spree shooter in the world that comes close to that, even the norwegian anders breivik didn't and he is rated as one of the worst spree shooters in history......

if you are going to compare the dangers of a knife and a gun, at least try to learn the differences in how people have used them against others.... it would make your statement appear a lot less uninformed and uneducated....

[darkeyes]

I think, Duckie.. in ur own way.. u have made me point for me... tyvm... I suggest u think about just what u said and consider the reality of it...;)

[Long Duck Dong]

"IE I have 4 cats, if one gets hit by a car, I want to be able to humanely end the suffering ASAP, I can use the gun on a farm to kill a sheep to fill the freezer etc.... and the only people that are at risk with me having a gun, are the fuckwits that break into my house and threat me or any other person in the house......."

These are reasons for wanting a gun. I accept that wanting a gun to kill a farm animal for food is valid imo.

If someone lives in a city, I find it illogical to want a gun to kill a pet should they be hit by a car. I do not want a gun to kill my pet should they be hit by a car. I don't think that makes sense except that it illustrates a quick solution to a very rare possibility in my community. I do not recall seeing a dead cat on our streets. Mind you we have services to call if an animal is found suffering due to being hit by a car or at large. No, wanting a gun to kill an animal that just may be hit by a car is pulling the leg of reason. If you live in a rural area then a gun for killing farm animals or road kill of farm cats/wild animals makes sense to me.

Again, the response that the writer wants a gun for the possibility that there might be a home invasion. It is better to spend money on securing your home. I do believe that if a person wants to burglar a home the person will be able to break in. It may be wiser to move to a community with less crime or support better policing and other methods of reducing crime than to want a gun to kill an invader. Removing guns from your society is probably a better solution to create a peaceful and safe environment. Or if your fears are not based on crime in your community seek counselling for this unresolved fear. If you live in a war zone and there is insufficient policing and law enforcement, then I am sorry for you. I hope that your country becomes peaceful again or that you are given sanctuary in another neighbouring peaceful country. It makes sense to me that you would want a gun until you are able to get to a peaceful country.

if you have a history of mental illness and previously been jailed for murder, then no you should not be permitted to have a gun in civilized societies just because you might have an opportunity to kill a cat hit by a car sometime in the future. The point that such a person even considers these remote possibilties states a lot about their present psychological perspective. That is pure stupidity for a society to permit such a person to have a gun imo. History should not be permitted to repeat itself. Bravado and macho statements do not convince many people that such a person should have a gun and may indicate a person with an unrealistic, violent approach to resolving conflict.




I have been respectful of your viewpoints and often erroneous thinking about gun owners... but I am not looking for your acceptance of my opinions nor your permission to have a gun or be a gun owner.... and I, like others in the thread, are acutely aware that the thread is not about a intelligent conversation about guns and gun ownership.. but just another *troll * thread where you use anything you can, to go after america, americans, guns, gun ownership and anything else you can twist and use against people in order to put them down and make them feel like they are not worth anything.....

[bl4aa]

I don't want to have the situation were I am calling 911 waiting for the police with their guns to arrive and praying they get to me in time.

[Realist]

Everyone in this thread, including me, is/was beating a dead horse! Let's agree that we each have strong convictions, which have been expressed in excess, then move the hell along!

There are basically two diametrically opposed views being exhibited, here. Each faction refuses to budge and I see a complete impasse! Voices are becoming blurred and unintelligible....a boring din!

To top it off, these views are being posted on a site that has absolutely nothing to do with this subject. It's obvious to me that no agreements will be formed, or agreed upon, ever!

So, why not find a subject more innate to the theme of the site?

No one is getting anywhere, only creating ill will!

I'm through!

[Gearbox]

And this is why you remain on a farm. Not that we aren't in America.
But at least we can stand up to the farmers if things get hairy. What
can the English do? Pick up rocks?

Don't me wrong. I do understand you can do plenty with rocks.
Guns would help equalize things better. Maybe one could use
a gun as deterrent? It worked for forty odd years.

"America just nuked Japan. Don't fuck with America."

No one really did. And frankly I don't think they did
for 9/11 but then again we'll never know. Point being,
we were not attacked because everyone figured we'd
nuke them and say "Have a Coke & smile."

Guns can act in the same way. I don't think
specifically America is wild west, as much as
the world itself is. There again though, others
may differ in views. I guess it's okay to be naive.
Your government doesn't give you effective weapons to use against them. Just placebos that you use for them.
Same for the English I expect, but without the notion that they can sieze control.

Nope, like with Hiroshima and maybe 911, psychological warfare/misdirection is their weapon/tool of choice. No AK47 is going to dent that. And who needs to think when they have an AK47?
Yes, guns (with the persona of 'cold killer') can work as a deterant much like Little Boy. That persona gets the sheep on the same page as government, and a merry dance will be had by all down whatever hole it cares to lead them.
Things will never get 'hairy'. 'Hairy' is in the blindspots.

[elian]

You know, I got a good reminder today that we aren't all paranoid folks who live afraid of our own shadow - if that's all you see in the media you might say, "What the !@$ is wrong with this country?" but I saw plenty of people this very day despite 34F temperatures outside just talking and relaxing and having a good time, not worried about anything. Some of them were going to ride some ATV's, some were going shopping, some were going to an agriculture fair. Now that we have "always on" 24x7 connection to EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD, (at least through the lense of some multinational corporations anyway) it is important to understand just what your sphere of influence really is in this world. When I feel myself getting overwhelmed with thoughts of the state of the world I remind myself, "What can I do, today, directly to have a positive impact on my self and my community?" Today I took some cat litter to the animal shelter and cheered for some folks who were jumping into freezing water as a stunt to support fundraising for Juvenile Diabetes.

Off topic? Maybe, but my point is, you can burn yourself out waiting, worrying, wondering about the sky falling or you can live life. I lament the loss of life that families experience every day. I lament every teen I know about that doesn't feel good enough deep down inside, we have all experienced self-doubt - we can all give encouragement.

I for one am sorry for my part in resurrecting this thread to the top of the pile. I don't care if you own a gun or not, that's like asking someone if they are gay or straight - what does it really matter? You must trust that the person will do the right thing, it would be a hell of a thing to go through life not trusting anyone.

[Gearbox]

I"m not disagreeing with you on this Gear, but until you pull the trigger, and see the devistating effects on another individual, please do not think it is just an arbitrary action without thought.
It's just the bearing of, I meant. Actualy going through with the threat of using it another thing.

[Long Duck Dong]

diff tween knife and gun is its a bit more difficult 2 slaughter 25 peeps (or more) in 25 seconds(or less) from 25 metres (or more) with a knife, Duckie.... and doesnt need haff the effort... close proximity not required... course u can thow a kitchen knife... but is easier 2 get out of the way of a thrown knife kitchen or otherwise than it is 2 get out of the way of a bullet... cant see a bullet... and u try throwing 25 or more knives at peeps in 25 seconds or less.. try carrying the bloody things... 1 knife course ya can kill 25 peeps but is easier 2 defend against wether or not u have a gun...and its a tadge more diff to do that in 25 secs... and ther is no way u can do that from 25 metres in 25 secs... am not denying that kitchen or ne other kind of knives r dangerous in the wrong or even the right hands... not denying that here at least more peeps r killed by knives of all kinds than by gun and bullet... and more peeps r killed by car accident than either or both taken together.. but I am saying that when they r used with lethal intent, they r far more dangerous and unpredictable than ne knife whether in the hands of the trained or untrained, the sane or the crazed...

the reason why I am requoting this, fran, is on behalf of a friend that doesn't want to join the site, just lurk

as best as possible, I have copied what they said word for word, and converted into english so that anybody can read it with ease.


they are official world records, not numbers drummed up out from thin air by you

the fastest knife throwing was set by a 63 year old that had been throwing knifes for 13 years, the record is 102 knives in one minute
the top archer in the world, is a semi blind south korea that can out shoot people with 20/20 eyesight
the fastest quick draw and shoot, is 0.208 seconds
the fastest reload of a 6 bullet gun and 12 shots fired, is 2.8 seconds
the fastest reload of 8 shells into a side loading shotgun 3.8 seconds
most punches thrown in a minute is 805
most kicks in a minute is 281

medical records show that multiple stabbings with a single knife, is a common factor in knife related crimes, shootings involve bullets being fired from a gun.
a person doesn't throw the knife, they use them in a stabbing and slashing movement, a gun is fired multiple times, not thrown at the victim, multiple times

a reverse comparison of your statement, fran, if you would like to answer it, since a gun is not thrown but hand held like a knife, can you please share what is more effective in the kitchen to slice, dice and fillet? your choices are a handgun, a shotgun, a assault rifle and a hunting rifle, and all must be held in the hand, not thrown at the vegetables

[jem_is_bi]

The posts on this topic are a lot like those on "another polarizing issue of previous forum focus" ---> They do not leave any middle ground to stand on and voice an opinion that is not almost completely ignored.

[Long Duck Dong]

lol, jem...... I love the middle ground.... it allows me to stand between the peaceful people that want to fight with everybody and the fighters that want to be left in peace...

[Long Duck Dong]

Exactly why should a 'fense sitter' on issues like this even be listened to? Cripes, form an opinion.

lol I am a fence sitter..... I believe in the right to bear arms and I believe in the right to bare arms..... I also believe in the right to arm bears but thats another story.....

seriously tho, I will defend a persons right NOT to bear arms, I will stand for their right NOT to bear arms, I will stand for their right to be safe in their own home, to protect themselves in their own home by what ever means they use, even if I disagree with the way they do it..... I agree that people have the right to feel safe and not at risk from violence....and I will respect their right to live in peace......

in return, I ask for the same respect, I will not use a firearm in a manner that unfairly places a person at risk, if they did not pose a risk in the first place... I will endeavour to ensure the safety and well being of any person that feels threatened by a person/s, be it armed or unarmed, at the risk of my own health and safety, I will endeavour to ensure the safety of the people of my community and country in a time of war, at the risk to my own life, I will respect the laws of my country in regards to my gun as long as they do not infringe upon my right to be safe in my own home.....

I will also respect the right of people NOT to fight for and / or defend their country / fellow men and women, and live a peaceful lifestyle, in the same way I will respect those that do fight for and / or defend their country and fellow men and women....

I am a fence sitter and proud of it..... the war memorials are full of our names from many wars..... the editorials, forums and websites are full of the names and opinions of those that do not sit on the fence and take sides

[Long Duck Dong]

I reckon.... but so true.....lol

[tenni]

The problem is that this thread has nothing to do with the right to bear arms.
This thread has nothing specifically to do with one country over another.
This thread has nothing to do with knives specifically.


It has to do with what kind of person wants to buy a gun.

[tenni]

" the OP doesn't like America."

oh and for those slurring me and telling me to stay in Canada etc.
I like all the Americas. North, South and Central America. ;)

[Long Duck Dong]

what kind of person wants to buy a gun ? a person that wants to buy a gun !... your question has been answered.....

[darkeyes]

There is a poster here, that apparently hates her own native land, I find that beyond reproach. As it were, the country that she resides in, taught the civilized world how to wage war, as war will be innevetiable, and it was done with a Gentlemans caution, and with respect to the enemy. That country is Great Britian. As much as the English enslaved the American Colonies, they acted with honour and great respect on the fields of battle against us. Our Second Ammendment was not so much as an argument to King George the Third, but more against the wages of sin that our own new form of Governance would bring. Did we learn this from the Governors appointed by the King, yes, but it was swallowed into the American belly that no Government should be trusted.If this is aimed at me, then it is a complete misreading of anything I have ever said.. u will find nowhere in anything I have ever written a single word of hate for the land of my birth, and certainly not for its people. U will find much about the wrongs its rulers have inflicted upon the world, my country and their peoples, and u will find that I do not like much the British state, its system of government and the trappings of privilege. U will find that I would tear down the fabric of that state and rebuild anew, and u will find that is done out of love for the land of my birth and its people not hate for both people and land deserve much better than they have. U will find that I have often spoken of love for my country and that I will not reside in any other. I am not a patriot and do not believe patriotism to be in the best interests of land or people and is a corrupting influence which breeds suspicion, fear and hatred of other nations and people and enables our political masters to persuade our people to defend the indefensible.. I do not and never have believed in the "My country right or wrong" principle that patriotism is about.. I am a human being, who loves her world, its people, life in all its variety and her surroundings at least as much as she loves her country, and her country is a part of that world, Never understand anything I say as hatred for my country..

..and if u believe that tosh about honour and warfare and my country's honourable attitude to war, then u and I have indeed read very different histories of both the American revolution and other conflicts, for it has never been anything of the sort, even if many do suffer such an illusion..

[elian]

Same as any other technology, a person who sees an advantage, a need or a want for the tool.


The problem is that this thread has nothing to do with the right to bear arms.
This thread has nothing specifically to do with one country over another.
This thread has nothing to do with knives specifically.


It has to do with what kind of person wants to buy a gun.

I know it has nothing to do with this thread but co-incidently..I heard on the news this morning that there is civil unrest in Ireland and the authorities are trying to figure out how people "got ahold of some rifles".. Given the historical context this seems a rather foolish thing to say.

I was not thrilled to hear about yet another place in the world that has been pushed toward civil strife.. It really makes me want to just yell STOP, but what do I know.

[void()]

Your government doesn't give you effective weapons to use against them. Just placebos that you use for them.
Same for the English I expect, but without the notion that they can sieze control.

Nope, like with Hiroshima and maybe 911, psychological warfare/misdirection is their weapon/tool of choice. No AK47 is going to dent that. And who needs to think when they have an AK47?
Yes, guns (with the persona of 'cold killer') can work as a deterant much like Little Boy. That persona gets the sheep on the same page as government, and a merry dance will be had by all down whatever hole it cares to lead them.
Things will never get 'hairy'. 'Hairy' is in the blindspots.

Well, actually they let us use the internet. We can attain knowledge, communicate, misdirect our governments the same as they misdirect us. So, we could potentially be on even footing against the government. BTW, I too like that line from _Serenity_ "Can't stop the signal." Always appreciate one of Mal's line's better though, "we're still flying!"

From what I recall there's a book exposing how Marxism was inserted upon the Soviets via so called journalists in an effort for America to stay in control. Darned if I can recall the title right off. It detailed how they rode in from Germany on a train and sat up shop as is said, then spread communism. I was reading a book about Jim Garrison and the JFK trial at the time as well. Can recall reading these right after first Patriot Act went into effect, asked librarian if they kept a reading database.

Read them regardless. :) And also some reference material on ricin about then too, as research for a mystery story plot. Remembered seeing something on episode of McGyver about it, wanted to ensure factual validity. Then lo and beold senators get ricin in their post. Boy did I quickly drop that research.

And yes, Gear, you're correct about hairy being blind spots. When asked if I thought myself paranoid by therapists, my response was "watch the news?" The therapists took my point rather quickly. "No, not paranoid just situationally aware, maybe a bit more expressive of security consciousness but not paranoid."

They nodded and replied, "well honestly watching the news now could make one quite paranoid, and hey people do get scared as a part of nature. No, you're not paranoid, no more than me." The point being, some us peek around the corners a wee bit. Sometimes it's enough to avoid leaping in front of a bullet train.

You're also correct the guns we're 'allowed' are placebos. Guess it evens out, I can learn to build a nuclear bomb on-line, in an afternoon. Not that I would mind you, still the raw information is there or was not long ago and Goggle is such a lovely way to refresh the cache of internet memory.

Still yet that further validates the argument of it not being the tool/technology that kills people but the people using it, their intent. And I'm inclined to agree with LDD, a person who wants a gun is the type of person to buy one. K.I.S.S -- Keep It Simple Seal

[Gearbox]

With all due respect, as a cousin of the Great British empire, it was the actions of your forefathers that implanted the validity of an armed American citizenry.
In our expansionist days I expect we put that idea in many. It's not something to be proud of, and thankfully oposition to the violent element in our society is the stronger.

the fastest knife throwing was set by a 63 year old that had been throwing knifes for 13 years, the record is 102 knives in one minute
the top archer in the world, is a semi blind south korea that can out shoot people with 20/20 eyesight
the fastest quick draw and shoot, is 0.208 seconds
the fastest reload of a 6 bullet gun and 12 shots fired, is 2.8 seconds
the fastest reload of 8 shells into a side loading shotgun 3.8 seconds
most punches thrown in a minute is 805
most kicks in a minute is 281
No skills or training are needed for ANY dumb mentaly ill person to cause carnage with a semi-automatic rifle, or handgun. It is NOT an achievement beyond the skills of the common man.
Do you get the difference now?

[Gearbox]

Well, actually they let us use the internet. We can attain knowledge, communicate, misdirect our governments the same as they misdirect us. So, we could potentially be on even footing against the government. BTW, I too like that line from _Serenity_ "Can't stop the signal." Always appreciate one of Mal's line's better though, "we're still flying!"

From what I recall there's a book exposing how Marxism was inserted upon the Soviets via so called journalists in an effort for America to stay in control. Darned if I can recall the title right off. It detailed how they rode in from Germany on a train and sat up shop as is said, then spread communism. I was reading a book about Jim Garrison and the JFK trial at the time as well. Can recall reading these right after first Patriot Act went into effect, asked librarian if they kept a reading database.

Read them regardless. :) And also some reference material on ricin about then too, as research for a mystery story plot. Remembered seeing something on episode of McGyver about it, wanted to ensure factual validity. Then lo and beold senators get ricin in their post. Boy did I quickly drop that research.

And yes, Gear, you're correct about hairy being blind spots. When asked if I thought myself paranoid by therapists, my response was "watch the news?" The therapists took my point rather quickly. "No, not paranoid just situationally aware, maybe a bit more expressive of security consciousness but not paranoid."

They nodded and replied, "well honestly watching the news now could make one quite paranoid, and hey people do get scared as a part of nature. No, you're not paranoid, no more than me." The point being, some us peek around the corners a wee bit. Sometimes it's enough to avoid leaping in front of a bullet train.

You're also correct the guns we're 'allowed' are placebos. Guess it evens out, I can learn to build a nuclear bomb on-line, in an afternoon. Not that I would mind you, still the raw information is there or was not long ago and Goggle is such a lovely way to refresh the cache of internet memory.

Still yet that further validates the argument of it not being the tool/technology that kills people but the people using it, their intent. And I'm inclined to agree with LDD, a person who wants a gun is the type of person to buy one. K.I.S.S -- Keep It Simple Seal
Well the internet must be some kind of danger to government, as they have tried to control/filter it. I have no idea if that's still going on, or has been successful etc.
Communism is def a danger though! Even in the UK! A neighbour of mine had a father who was in the communist party, and claims his phone was tapped. His privacy would have been more respected if he was a sex offender.:eek:
Dimethyltryptamine is a very interesting thing to research too. I hope senators get a dose of that in the post.lol

There's never any 'good' News. Never any reason given to feel safe and secure. And the adverts barrage you with "Your too fat, ugly, dirty, smelly, tasteless, boring, lonely, disrespected, uncool, stupid and shit at everything for your own good!".:eek2: Watch them and tell me I'm wrong!lol No wonder insecurity is rife!

I rarely agree with LDD, and don't on that point either. It's the 'keep it simple' mentality that submerges self knowledge. He hasn't a clue why he sleeps with a firearm next to him, and doesn't give a damn to think about it either.

[tenni]

Post 143

Szep
The most interesting thing that I learn from your post is that guns have been part of your life since childhood. You seem to want a gun as someone might want an ethnic food. It feels appropriate.

Then you write about a “rights of man to self determination” etc. The last section seems alien to my mind. I can believe in some of those words and still not want a gun. The wording “with respect to the rights of a decent and law abiding government” ring shallow to my mind. It is a so what are you talking about moment? I know that they mean something to you. They read as propaganda to me. So be it.

Thanks. Your first part of what you wrote makes sense to me. I would be uncomfortable in your presence with your gun depending upon why you had the gun out but it makes sense to me.

[tenni]

"a person who wants a gun is the type of person to buy one."

Actually, that is not the question of this thread.

What kind of a person wants a gun? That was my question. We've wandered many places but commenting on a person who wants a gun etc. is nonsense ramblings.

I think that I've read a bit on why a person wants a gun. I've read a lot of ramblings off topic about gun violence. I still understand that the kind of person who wants a gun is a person that is afraid of something..violence being the most plausable. The kind of person who wants a gun is the kind of person who considers it natural and essential.

[matutum]

i don't think the woman in Georgia whose house was broken into wanted a gun but when confronted with a guy who broke down her door she protected herself and kids by shooting this guy 5 times,he didn't die so he will prob sue her.

[magari]

You are a fucking idiot! How's that for a reason?

I have lived 16 years in Europe, and feel the same way as tenni. The minute you cross the US border, gun ownership attitudes are 360 degrees opposite. 62% of the US population thinks the rest of the civilized world are "fucking idiots". The rest of the world just POLITELY questions our sanity, as tenni did. Put your pistol back in it's holster, Szeppilin. The fear of gun regulation is akin to homophobia.

[Long Duck Dong]

No skills or training are needed for ANY dumb mentaly ill person to cause carnage with a semi-automatic rifle, or handgun. It is NOT an achievement beyond the skills of the common man.
Do you get the difference now?

and it is the same of people that speak out against guns..... it doesn't take any skill or training in order to present a reasoned and logical personal opinion about a persons lack of interest in owning or possessing a gun..... I have met many people that can do it and have done it..... its just the ones that turn into raving fools with twisted logic, that need to resort to rubbishing other people and countries, that I would put in with the gun owners that feel the need to threaten innocent people with a gun or place the general public at risk by their actions....

my gun is hidden in my home, my opinion of some people in this forum is seen...... your mouth is visible on your face, and your opinion of some people is being seen a lot in this forum....... I can go out on the town without a gun.... try doing that without your mouth..... then tell me who have better control over their * weapon *

[Long Duck Dong]

lets sum up shall we......

I am a gun owner, in NZ..... that makes me a threat to people in the UK and canada because

( arguments used by opponents of guns )

1) I have a mental illness,
2) america has a *culture of violence*,
3) america has a constitution with the 2nd amendment
4) america is next to canada
5) a gun can do more damage than throwing knives
6) I have a home defense policy
7) other people with guns, have committed tragic crimes in other countries, including my own
8) I am fearful of something ( exactly what has not really been defined )
9) I defended my own home in NZ against a person intent on harming another person

my reasoning as to why I am not a threat to those people by way of possession of a gun

1) they are not in my country
2) they are not trying to break into my home and harm any person in my house
3) they are not invading my country
4) I do not see and can not foresee any reason why I would need to be holding my gun in their presence, ( that covers the first 3)
5) they do not pose a threat to me or any other person by way of their opinions and statements
6) if I did not tell them I had a gun, they would not even know I had one
7) if they were anywhere near me with their mouths, I would leave the building or ask them to vacate my home

point, set and match to responsible, intelligent gun owners and holders, I would say....

[darkeyes]

lets sum up shall we......

I am a gun owner, in NZ..... that makes me a threat to people in the UK and canada because

( arguments used by opponents of guns )

1) I have a mental illness,
2) america has a *culture of violence*,
3) america has a constitution with the 2nd amendment
4) america is next to canada
5) a gun can do more damage than throwing knives
6) I have a home defense policy
7) other people with guns, have committed tragic crimes in other countries, including my own
8) I am fearful of something ( exactly what has not really been defined )
9) I defended my own home in NZ against a person intent on harming another person

my reasoning as to why I am not a threat to those people by way of possession of a gun

1) they are not in my country
2) they are not trying to break into my home and harm any person in my house
3) they are not invading my country
4) I do not see and can not foresee any reason why I would need to be holding my gun in their presence, ( that covers the first 3)
5) they do not pose a threat to me or any other person by way of their opinions and statements
6) if I did not tell them I had a gun, they would not even know I had one
7) if they were anywhere near me with their mouths, I would leave the building or ask them to vacate my home

point, set and match to responsible, intelligent gun owners and holders, I would say....
Game, set and match as much as Andy Murray hammered Roger Federer at Wimbledon All England Tennis Chamionships in 2012.. and just as ridiculous...

[Long Duck Dong]

I am sorry, I do not follow tennis, but is that your opposing argument to what I posted..... that somebody won a tennis match ? and therefore my statements are ridiculous ?

ok...... can you tell me what you are smoking or drinking.... so that I know what not to smoke or drink, please.....

[Gearbox]

and it is the same of people that speak out against guns..... it doesn't take any skill or training in order to present a reasoned and logical personal opinion about a persons lack of interest in owning or possessing a gun..... I have met many people that can do it and have done it..... its just the ones that turn into raving fools with twisted logic, that need to resort to rubbishing other people and countries, that I would put in with the gun owners that feel the need to threaten innocent people with a gun or place the general public at risk by their actions....

my gun is hidden in my home, my opinion of some people in this forum is seen...... your mouth is visible on your face, and your opinion of some people is being seen a lot in this forum....... I can go out on the town without a gun.... try doing that without your mouth..... then tell me who have better control over their * weapon *
WTF?:rolleyes:
You had difficulty telling the difference between firearms and other kinds of weapons. I pointed out that it takes less skill to use a firearm to attack a group than it would a record breaking kicker, puncher, archer, knife thrower etc.
So what are you going on off on a completely nonsensical tangent for? I've read it a few times now and I can't make sense of it. Can anybody else?:confused:

[Gearbox]

point, set and match to responsible, intelligent gun owners and holders, I would say....

I am a fence sitter and proud of it.
Oh what a tangled web we weave.......;)

[Long Duck Dong]

WTF?:rolleyes:
You had difficulty telling the difference between firearms and other kinds of weapons. I pointed out that it takes less skill to use a firearm to attack a group than it would a record breaking kicker, puncher, archer, knife thrower etc.
So what are you going on off on a completely nonsensical tangent for? I've read it a few times now and I can't make sense of it. Can anybody else?:confused:

anybody can pick up a gun, point it and pull the trigger, ... hitting the target with a consistent pattern of fire, is something else completely....... part of it is training, the rest is a natural skill and ability.... hence why training does not always make a person a good shot.......

and it is the same with people that speak out against guns, a dislike of guns, doesn't always mean that they can give a intelligent and well laid out rebuttal over gun usage, hence why we are seeing fuck all intelligent rebuttals over guns and gun ownership

fran in post #118 is a fine example of that, as fran has posted in the past about her own gun usage.... yet in a attempt to show how guns are more dangerous than knives, she compares them on a direct comparison, even tho she knows the vast differences between guns and knives.... that is like comparing a bicycle with a truck, as proof that a truck is more dangerous than a bicycle,...... sorry but I have never seen a bicycle towing trailers on a long haul trip across country and nor do I see trucks competing on bmx tracks.......
fran by her own post, made a total fool of herself... cos she clearly knows the difference between how guns and knives are used.....and could have posted a very well laid out rebuttal....
.
you could have made a simple statement without having to add in this remark " ANY dumb mentaly ill person *...but the fact that you have to resort to remarks like that, also prove that you are unable to challenge gun ownership without posting things that can be offensive and insulting....

the best rebuttal I have ever heard, in regards to myself, has come from a ex nam vet cop that is also a hunter and the rebuttal was simply, he could not work out any reason why I would need a gun in the house for self defense purposes, when I was more dangerous without one because of my martial arts training......

I do not need to rebutt peoples anti gun stances or opposition to gun ownership, with statements like, people that hate guns, are just people that are too stupid to work out want end of the gun to point where... or that they are actually gutless wonders that look to talk big but would hide behind closed doors when issues do arise.... cos bs like that is not true of so many people ( there have been pacifists that were involved in the world wars, on the front lines, and some of them were heroes in my eyes ) and cos there is no need to act like a child in a sandpit......

most of the remarks in the thread by you, tenni and fran, have involved, calling peoples opinions bolloxs and tosh, using a persons mental state of mind as a weapon, implying that peoples countries and fellow country persons, are ignorant, conditioned people, and that gun owners are mentally ill people that are living in fear and incapable of intelligent reasoning and thought.....

yet there are posts like mine, DEFENDING peoples rights NOT to have guns, SUPPORTING their desire to live in peace....and even stating that I, MYSELF would like to live out the rest of my days in peace.....

so when it comes to being reasonable, open minded and considerate of the rights of others, is clearly not in favour of the anti gun advocates

the fact that you can not make sense of what I say, means one of four things.....
1) you can not work out how to twist it around and use it to insult people
2) you are lacking the intelligence to understand what I have said, and therefore hope that tenni and fran will back you up.....
3) you can not see any issues with some of the things you say that can be deemed as offensive, rude and judgmental of people, but you can not handle the idea that other people do not need to resort to those games....
4) ( my perferred understanding ) you just do not like anything I say, therefore you want to find fault with anything I post

[Long Duck Dong]

btw, gear.... the pro peace / anti gun advocates of NZ, generally believe that the best response to a home invasion, is NOT to take any action against the people, even if you are being assaulted, as that may inflame the situation, and result in more harm to yourself and others......

you have posted that if your family was placed at extreme risk of harm at the hands of others, ( paraphrased ) you would react violently..... and incidently, its the same thing that fran has said in another thread, possibly with a gun as well ( with the disclaimer that she would spend the rest of her life struggling with that fact )..... I hope that NEITHER of you ever have to face that situation, I have been down that road, and the judgments and finger pointing from other people, can last for years....

and if it ever happens to you, you will have my understanding and my respect, not my judgment of your actions... cos I actually understand why it can happen.....and my sympathy, cos you both would have to deal with what I deal with..... just read back over the things that have been said about me, for doing the same thing, defending my home and using a gun.....by you and fran and others

that is part of why I am a fence sitter.......I have watched so many people cut themselves with the sword they have wielded against others

[tenni]

Sad attempt to make this thread about one person.

[Long Duck Dong]

Sad attempt to make this thread about one person.

I reckon.... people really need to focus on the other members that have posted as well....

[Long Duck Dong]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/8148510/Son-claims-father-pulled-gun happened in NZ yesturday......

the home is known to police, they have been there a number of times, for a number of issues........ and christchurch is a place in NZ that has have a number of shootings over the last years, all in the same area of christchurch..... one of the last ones, was the police shooting a person armed with a knife that did a double stabbing of two victims......

http://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/201527/arrest-after-christchurch-shooting

while gun control laws could be tightened..... how are we as a society, going to deal with knives, as they are one of the leading weapons used, next to guns..... and after all, its about dealing with violent crimes and the weapons that are used ......

[2bi2Bboring]

I am a gun owner, HOWEVER, I come to places like this to escape and avoid such political discussions. I don't know of ANY quicker way to piss people off than to begin discussing politics or religion. I once made an off handed political comment to a couple I had just had sex with (sex with BOTH of them,btw), you'd have thought I had just peed in their breakfast cereal. I learned in that moment that sexual conduct and political affiliation are completely incongruous in many folks eyes.
Gun ownership and gun control is one of the sorest areas of discussion to delve into in a forum such as this. Personally, if I were a moderator here i doubt I would allow it. It is inviting strife and vehement arguement into the forum.
Just my $.02

[Gearbox]

anybody can pick up a gun, point it and pull the trigger, ... hitting the target with a consistent pattern of fire, is something else completely....... part of it is training, the rest is a natural skill and ability.... hence why training does not always make a person a good shot.......
True! You do not need to be a skilled marksman with a tight grouping to be lethal with a firearm. Shoot enough bullets and chances are, you'd hit the target. Arguably, the unskilled are often more dangerouse.

and it is the same with people that speak out against guns, a dislike of guns, doesn't always mean that they can give a intelligent and well laid out rebuttal over gun usage, hence why we are seeing fuck all intelligent rebuttals over guns and gun ownership
We see very little sign of inteligence going on in your posts too. So don't feel sorry for us.lol

fran in post #118 is a fine example of that, as fran has posted in the past about her own gun usage.... yet in a attempt to show how guns are more dangerous than knives, she compares them on a direct comparison, even tho she knows the vast differences between guns and knives.... that is like comparing a bicycle with a truck, as proof that a truck is more dangerous than a bicycle,...... sorry but I have never seen a bicycle towing trailers on a long haul trip across country and nor do I see trucks competing on bmx tracks.......
fran by her own post, made a total fool of herself... cos she clearly knows the difference between how guns and knives are used.....and could have posted a very well laid out rebuttal....
This is the kind of silly childish ravings you post that show a complete lack of sense, but a clear snipe at your target.

you could have made a simple statement without having to add in this remark " ANY dumb mentaly ill person *...but the fact that you have to resort to remarks like that, also prove that you are unable to challenge gun ownership without posting things that can be offensive and insulting....
I was refering to the DUMB MENTALY ILL, and not all who have a firearm. As in, inteligence and sanity are not required to use a firearm. Sad fact!

the best rebuttal I have ever heard, in regards to myself, has come from a ex nam vet cop that is also a hunter and the rebuttal was simply, he could not work out any reason why I would need a gun in the house for self defense purposes, when I was more dangerous without one because of my martial arts training......
He was probably taking the piss.:rolleyes:

I do not need to rebutt peoples anti gun stances or opposition to gun ownership, with statements like, people that hate guns, are just people that are too stupid to work out want end of the gun to point where... or that they are actually gutless wonders that look to talk big but would hide behind closed doors when issues do arise.... cos bs like that is not true of so many people ( there have been pacifists that were involved in the world wars, on the front lines, and some of them were heroes in my eyes ) and cos there is no need to act like a child in a sandpit......
Just say what's on your mind. No need to use deception to post what you think, and excuse yourself of it.
For eg- "Oh I'd never agree with people who think LDD is a fucking stupid drama queen who's off his meds! I think he's lovely and deserves a medal.".:bigrin:
It's just so silly and two faced.

most of the remarks in the thread by you, tenni and fran, have involved, calling peoples opinions bolloxs and tosh, using a persons mental state of mind as a weapon, implying that peoples countries and fellow country persons, are ignorant, conditioned people, and that gun owners are mentally ill people that are living in fear and incapable of intelligent reasoning and thought.....
That is just pure (as we call in the UK) shit stiring. You seem to like being an anti-mediator, and elect 3 members as 'the bad guys' for the rest to feel threatened by unnecassarily, so they'll want to attack back. No doubt you get a thrill from that, but will eventually make it all about yourself and get your martyr fix.

yet there are posts like mine, DEFENDING peoples rights NOT to have guns, SUPPORTING their desire to live in peace....and even stating that I, MYSELF would like to live out the rest of my days in peace.....
So why the shit stirring?

so when it comes to being reasonable, open minded and considerate of the rights of others, is clearly not in favour of the anti gun advocates
That fence has gone again. More lies that your on it to come?

the fact that you can not make sense of what I say, means one of four things.....
1) you can not work out how to twist it around and use it to insult people
2) you are lacking the intelligence to understand what I have said, and therefore hope that tenni and fran will back you up.....
3) you can not see any issues with some of the things you say that can be deemed as offensive, rude and judgmental of people, but you can not handle the idea that other people do not need to resort to those games....
4) ( my perferred understanding ) you just do not like anything I say, therefore you want to find fault with anything I post
Or maybe you just post nonesense? I'm not the only one who doesn't understand what your talking about by far.

[BiJoe696]

I found this a good read:

http://whiskeyandthemorningafter.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-nra-doesnt-represent-me-thoughts.html

[darkeyes]

I am sorry, I do not follow tennis, but is that your opposing argument to what I posted..... that somebody won a tennis match ? and therefore my statements are ridiculous ?

ok...... can you tell me what you are smoking or drinking.... so that I know what not to smoke or drink, please.....
You raised the subject of tennis hun... it is not the stance of being pro gun which is ridiculous, which for all the horror of it is a valid position, but ur pitiful attempt at ridicule... and no smokes.. and cocoa... I like cocoa...

[Long Duck Dong]

bijoe, that is a brilliant read...

if any person that had a firearms license in NZ, seriously asked for a E endorsement ( ownership and possession of MSSA or military style semi automatic fire arm ) on their licence so they could get a AR-15 for home defense, they would face losing their licence and all of their guns as they would be deemed unsuitable to own and possess guns and also because its illegal to defend yourself and your home with a gun... tho you will only face charges if you fire the weapon, regardless if its at the floor, the roof or at a person, in self defense

the law on guns and gun ownership in NZ is so strict that full automatic paintball guns and air / gas guns were put in the same class as MSSA weapons until it was changed in a court of law lol.... and any gun other than a pistol that has a 8 bullet mag, is classed as a MSSA, even if its a hunting rifle.... and getting a E class endorsement ? lol, you need a full gun license, 2 fully certified and licensed E class endorsement people that are members of a gun club, collectors or certified long term gun owners and users with a clean record... and hope that fort knox had a vault they can lend you to use as a gun cabinet... and then you have to pass the full background check of you and your refs, your gun cabinet and the places ( if you are using the weapon at a gun club ) that you intend to use the gun....so it can take about 6 months to get the E class endorsement....... then you have to get somebody to sell you one.. and if the gun dealer doesn't think you should have one, well... you ain't getting one from him...

[Long Duck Dong]

You raised the subject of tennis hun... it is not the stance of being pro gun which is ridiculous, which for all the horror of it is a valid position, but ur pitiful attempt at ridicule... and no smokes.. and cocoa... I like cocoa...

I still do not get what tennis has to do with anything.... maybe you would care to explain.... PLEASE....

( edited to update something ) point, set and match is a term that some hunters use....
point your gun at the target, set yourself in a comfortable position, match what you think you are shooting at with what others can see ( in other words, don't shoot until you are fking sure you know what you are shooting at )......
I can see why its easy to confuse it as game, set and match.... so that was my fault, NOT yours for not knowing what I actually meant

clarify pro gun in your words for me please......

I am pro gun ownership, provided the person meets and passes the criteria laid out by my countries laws ( that only applies to NZ, not any other country ) and respects the rights of others not to own a gun or wish a gun in the house, and obeys as best as possible the laws of my country, as I have to.....

[csrakate]

point, set and match to responsible, intelligent gun owners and holders, I would say....
To clarify for you LDD, these are your words which are considered to be tennis terminology....hence the reference to tennis.

[jamieknyc]

I only skimmed the last page or two of this thread, but no one seems to be able to discuss it rationally.

[darkeyes]

fran in post #118 is a fine example of that, as fran has posted in the past about her own gun usage.... yet in a attempt to show how guns are more dangerous than knives, she compares them on a direct comparison, even tho she knows the vast differences between guns and knives.... that is like comparing a bicycle with a truck, as proof that a truck is more dangerous than a bicycle,...... sorry but I have never seen a bicycle towing trailers on a long haul trip across country and nor do I see trucks competing on bmx tracks.......
fran by her own post, made a total fool of herself... cos she clearly knows the difference between how guns and knives are used.....and could have posted a very well laid out rebuttal....
.

It is true I have used guns and have written of it in the past.. it was that usage which in time turned my stomache and helped me realise just how much I hate them and the mayhem they can cause. I do not enjoy listening to animals screaming like human babies because of my failure to kill them cleanly.. and having to put them out of their agony by my own hand.. it was sickening and eventually realised just how much the world would be better off without them.. of course there is a world of difference between gun and knife usage.. and am sorry u didn't like how I worded my post on knife usage... it may have been foolish but is a lot less foolish than many of ur own macho ramblings, tough guy...

..and I have said in past I do not know how I would react should someone threaten my family.. I know I wudnt reach for a gun, and have never said that to the best of my recollection..ther are no guns in my home to reach for and neither are there any at our cottage... there were.. my dad still shot both target and for the pot.. my brother still does.. but after my dad's death I asked my mother to remove them and my brother knows that when he goes to the cottage for weekends or breaks he is not to take anything resmbling a firearm... they both know how I hate firearms and respected and respect my wishes... I have said I would do all I can to defend family but hope my principles of pacifism and love of all life, human and otherwise would prevent me from taking a human life... hopefully also without violence but no one can say for sure how they would react in such circumstances... I would rather sacrifice my own than an assailant's life and hope should it ever arise neither would be the result.....that may sound confused but it is how much I value life.. firearms are about power... and I do not wish to have such power in my possession.. my family know how I feel..they may not agree, but I would rather feel as I do, confused, foolish, stupid even, than suffer from ur overbearing, tuff guy, great man, kung fu, danger manist, Captain Invincible syndrome... the desire to own weapons for self defence,hunting or killing vermin is valid, and the arguments valid.. even the argument about defence against the state.. but I do not accept them even if I see why people feel as they do .. my love of human life allows me to take no other stance...

I try to lead by example.. and my pacifism and belief in non violence, which is total, I live my life by because I care far too much for human life to endanger it, and an armed citizenry creates the suspicion, paranoia and dangers which most seek to avoid. You do not sit on the fence at all.. u have never sat on the fence.. not on this or any other issue. And when I read this.. "am pro gun ownership, provided the person meets and passes the criteria laid out by my countries laws ( that only applies to NZ, not any other country ) and respects the rights of others not to own a gun or wish a gun in the house, and obeys as best as possible the laws of my country, as I have to....."

... it makes me weep Mr law abiding citizen who has an illegal firearm under his pillow......

[centillini]

K. Let me start with this I served in the Marine Corps for 10 years and seen action few times (not sex either). I am a certified firearms instructor and have been teaching law enforcemnt and citizens for 30 years, as well as a competitive shooter. It is my constitutional right to have/posses a firearm, my GOD given right to protect my life and families! "Bad men do, because good men don't", this means the bad guys don't care about laws or they wouldn't be bad guys. When it comes to me having to decide on being a law abiding citizen or being alive or my family, then guess will be a criminal. You can take a firearm and set it on a table for 100 years and nothing will happen, it is a tool like a hammer. When the person picks it up that uses it will dictate either is saves lives or destroy's. Understand that gun control is that, it gives control to people (governments). Look at russia 1920's, china 30's, uganda 60-70's, turkey, Germany of course, then funny how austrilia crime rose dramaticly and violent crime soared when they banned guns, guess the criminal's didn't care. The second amendment should of been the first for it is the one that gives the people the teeth to protect themselves from the government, once this goes you will have no other rights. I swore to defend the constitution against all enemies foriegn and domestic, and messing with it is wrong.

[tenni]

K. ...my GOD given right to protect my life and families! You can take a firearm and set it on a table for 100 years and nothing will happen, it is a tool like a hammer. When the person picks it up that uses it will dictate either is saves lives or destroy's. Understand that gun control is that, it gives control to people (governments). .. then funny how austrilia crime rose dramaticly and violent crime soared when they banned guns, guess the criminal's didn't care. The second amendment should of been the first for it is the one that gives the people the teeth to protect themselves from the government, once this goes you will have no other rights. I swore to defend the constitution against all enemies foriegn and domestic, and messing with it is wrong.

So, you are the kind of person who wants a gun? I'm sorry but much of what you write reads to me as a form of propaganda.

Off topic response to off topic post.
I didn't know about Austrailia's experience but that doesn't seem to exactly be connected to the thread topic..the bastardized misinterpretation perhaps. It reinforces my perception that what is being posted are propaganda responses that people seem brainwashed to believe. (could it be those damn Communist Muslims' fault? cheeky wanker I know) This thread is not about right of gun ownership. I am permitted to own long guns if I meet the criteria but neither a god nor a constitution is required. I do not fear my government. Some of the posters do fear their government and that seem to make them in to a kind of fearful citizen who wants a gun? It seems to me that an outdated constitution and propaganda manipulation of people may be at the core of some issues. It may be creating a kind of person who wants a gun?

propaganda point 2
God given right to protect your family? I don't know a god that states this in their holy book? My understanding is that the Judeao-Christian commandments states thou shalt not kill.

It is understandable that if a person is in a position that their life is threatened that they would do all that they can to survive. What can you do to improve your society so that so many of you do not have to live in fear? More guns do not seem to be making your society safer at all. Perhaps, people/governments need to change their values and attitudes about a safe society and how to make a society safe?

propaganda point 3
A hammer is a tool and this argument about tools and killing purposes seems to be presented by several people from your country. It reads like a mantra/propaganda that some kind of people who want a gun state? The primary purpose for a hammer is a tool meant to deliver an impact to an object(not a living creature). The most common uses are for driving nails, fitting parts, forging metal and breaking objects (not living beings). Then you state that when a gun is picked up even after a hundred years that the person decides whether to use it to kill and for what reason may be in their mind. That still makes the gun an object which has a primary purpose to maim and kill. It is just a matter of when it is used. It is a killing/maiming tool. The use of a hammer as a killing tool may be a tertiary or secondary purpose at best. Sadly, I am aware of a little Canadian girl being murdered by the murderer using a tool and so it is possible but unlikely to be a primary killing tool. I doubt that if the killer had easier access to guns he would have still chosen the hammer? One thought that comes to my mind is that the hammer was reported in the media as the killing tool during the trial. It was mentioned in contact as to how it was obtained. Graphic details of its use were not reported by the media. I think that people without guns are forced to think and plan more if the media doesn't sensationalize the use of a hammer as a killing tool. I may be wrong. As you wrote bad people do bad things and are bent on doing them. Access to a killing tool may slow them down and that might reduce emotional murders...don't know and off topic thought.
.................................................. ..............
Am I correct to think that you swore an oath to protect your country while in the military? I didn't know that the oath is a life long oath even after leaving the military? If so, I didn't know that interesting point.

[tenni]

Unless I am misunderstood. I think that there is a kind of person who believes and dedicates their career to protect the citizens and they want a gun to do this. This makes sense. I think that it is very dedicated of centilli to offer his services and time to training others to use guns to protect the citizens. I suspect that he considers his service equivalent (if not higher in his mind) than those who dedicate their careers to heal and educate citizens. In a lot of respects they are of equal value imo. However, some of his beliefs seem to be based on propaganda in other areas. It is obvious that some believe the propaganda of their culture and do not question it.

[gladius]

Unless I am misunderstood. I think that there is a kind of person who believes and dedicates their career to protect the citizens and they want a gun to do this. This makes sense. I think that it is very dedicated of centilli to offer his services and time to training others to use guns to protect the citizens. I suspect that he considers his service equivalent (if not higher in his mind) than those who dedicate their careers to heal and educate citizens. In a lot of respects they are of equal value imo. However, some of his beliefs seem to be based on propaganda in other areas. It is obvious that some believe the propaganda of their culture and do not question it.

Tenni, in all due respect, but have you been brainwashed into some sort of socially retarded cult?

[Gearbox]

Tenni, in all due respect, but have you been brainwashed into some sort of socially retarded cult?
Go rescue him with your guns Gladious! He'll never help get gun-crimes up to the standard of your cult if you don't.lol

[Long Duck Dong]

I try to lead by example.. and my pacifism and belief in non violence, which is total, I live my life by because I care far too much for human life to endanger it, and an armed citizenry creates the suspicion, paranoia and dangers which most seek to avoid. You do not sit on the fence at all.. u have never sat on the fence.. not on this or any other issue. And when I read this.. "am pro gun ownership, provided the person meets and passes the criteria laid out by my countries laws ( that only applies to NZ, not any other country ) and respects the rights of others not to own a gun or wish a gun in the house, and obeys as best as possible the laws of my country, as I have to....."

... it makes me weep Mr law abiding citizen who has an illegal firearm under his pillow......

obeys as best as possible, the laws of my country, as I have....... not never, ever breaks any law of my country, cos I am not sure there is anybody in the country, that is so perfect that they have NOT broken a law at some stage in their life....

I think you have something in your eye thats making you weep, Mrs law abiding citizen that uses illegal sdrugs knowingly. it looks like a log

[Long Duck Dong]

It is true I have used guns and have written of it in the past.. it was that usage which in time turned my stomache and helped me realise just how much I hate them and the mayhem they can cause. I do not enjoy listening to animals screaming like human babies because of my failure to kill them cleanly.. and having to put them out of their agony by my own hand.. it was sickening and eventually realised just how much the world would be better off without them.. of course there is a world of difference between gun and knife usage.. and am sorry u didn't like how I worded my post on knife usage... it may have been foolish but is a lot less foolish than many of ur own macho ramblings, tough guy...

..and I have said in past I do not know how I would react should someone threaten my family.. I know I wudnt reach for a gun, and have never said that to the best of my recollection..ther are no guns in my home to reach for and neither are there any at our cottage... there were.. my dad still shot both target and for the pot.. my brother still does.. but after my dad's death I asked my mother to remove them and my brother knows that when he goes to the cottage for weekends or breaks he is not to take anything resmbling a firearm... they both know how I hate firearms and respected and respect my wishes... I have said I would do all I can to defend family but hope my principles of pacifism and love of all life, human and otherwise would prevent me from taking a human life... hopefully also without violence but no one can say for sure how they would react in such circumstances... I would rather sacrifice my own than an assailant's life and hope should it ever arise neither would be the result.....that may sound confused but it is how much I value life.. firearms are about power... and I do not wish to have such power in my possession.. my family know how I feel..they may not agree, but I would rather feel as I do, confused, foolish, stupid even, than suffer from ur overbearing, tuff guy, great man, kung fu, danger manist, Captain Invincible syndrome... the desire to own weapons for self defence,hunting or killing vermin is valid, and the arguments valid.. even the argument about defence against the state.. but I do not accept them even if I see why people feel as they do .. my love of human life allows me to take no other stance...



now, as for the rest of what you said.....

1) I took up martial arts so I could learn to defend myself after years of bullying and beatings at school.... not to become bruce lee or chuck norris.....
2) I carry the scars to my body from standing in front of people, defending and protecting them from serious threats....
3) I have moved half way across a country to distance myself from much of my past and the violent / dangerous people I used to associate with....

you can take your hunky hero, macho milkshake, rabid rambo statements and use them as compost or something..... you talk about sacrificing your life rather than hurt others and yet, you sit in judgment of people that have risked their own lives, to protect and defend others......

I have no idea how many rambo movies you watch.... but the reality of dealing with people that may be armed and dangerous, violent and intent on doing harm, is very different to the movies... and I am not talking about your average joe blogs that is having a bad day or a lil too much to drink and mouthing off and being a total dickhead.... but feel free to post in the forums after you have had your jaw broken, eye socket fractured and major concussion cos you protected somebody from a drunken asshole with a slab of wood....

yes, fran, I have done the whole * supreme sacrifice * thing a number of times.... it fking hurts, it takes a while for the body to heal, you have to deal with judgmental statements from self righteous people constantly, and most of the time, there is not even a simple thank you and most people would not know who the fk I was if you mentioned my name, they only remember the guy that came in fists and all, to stop them getting severely beaten or killed.......

now if you will excuse me, I have things to go and do, cos the pope is not going to ring and call me a saint, there is no hero parades for me, there is no medal of honor, there is just the daily grind...... and I need to give you a chance to think up another way to try and put me down for the things I do and have done while you sing your own praises over the things that you say you may do, one day

[darkeyes]

obeys as best as possible, the laws of my country, as I have....... not never, ever breaks any law of my country, cos I am not sure there is anybody in the country, that is so perfect that they have NOT broken a law at some stage in their life....

I think you have something in your eye thats making you weep, Mrs law abiding citizen that uses illegal sdrugs knowingly. it looks like a log
As best as possible? I agree that everyone breaks the law knowingly quite deliberately, absent mindedly or through ignorance.. and I'm talking of generally law abiding peeps.. whether it be speeding, going through red lights, having a little dope... so I'm not saying everyone is perfect... least of all me.. but my little bit of naughty smokie is me own, and it isnt there to blow ne 1 away cept me.. and dont do enuff of it or ever possess enuff for that and ver rarely.. we can all be as best as possible.. none of us are.. but some bests as possible should not involve quite what u have under ur pillow best as possible.. u may argue the point, but my little bit of best as possible (of wich I presently have none) is no threat 2 ne other human being...

..and as for watching Rambo movies... never have a one.. dont need to when we have our own very own on .com...

[Long Duck Dong]

fran you do not need to justify your actions to me, just stop trying to play the * my illegal acts are not as illegal as yours *.... we are both breaking the law, we both know it, we both could stop it, we both choose not to..... cos its making you look like the one that is trying to make out she is better than other people, while claiming that I am doing it......

[Gearbox]

now, as for the rest of what you said.....

1) I took up martial arts so I could learn to defend myself after years of bullying and beatings at school.... not to become bruce lee or chuck norris.....
2) I carry the scars to my body from standing in front of people, defending and protecting them from serious threats....
3) I have moved half way across a country to distance myself from much of my past and the violent / dangerous people I used to associate with....

you can take your hunky hero, macho milkshake, rabid rambo statements and use them as compost or something..... you talk about sacrificing your life rather than hurt others and yet, you sit in judgment of people that have risked their own lives, to protect and defend others......

I have no idea how many rambo movies you watch.... but the reality of dealing with people that may be armed and dangerous, violent and intent on doing harm, is very different to the movies... and I am not talking about your average joe blogs that is having a bad day or a lil too much to drink and mouthing off and being a total dickhead.... but feel free to post in the forums after you have had your jaw broken, eye socket fractured and major concussion cos you protected somebody from a drunken asshole with a slab of wood....

yes, fran, I have done the whole * supreme sacrifice * thing a number of times.... it fking hurts, it takes a while for the body to heal, you have to deal with judgmental statements from self righteous people constantly, and most of the time, there is not even a simple thank you and most people would not know who the fk I was if you mentioned my name, they only remember the guy that came in fists and all, to stop them getting severely beaten or killed.......

now if you will excuse me, I have things to go and do, cos the pope is not going to ring and call me a saint, there is no hero parades for me, there is no medal of honor, there is just the daily grind...... and I need to give you a chance to think up another way to try and put me down for the things I do and have done while you sing your own praises over the things that you say you may do, one day
Is anybody swallowing this? Just out of curiosity.:tongue: Don't get me rong, I like a giggle, and I love chatting to a bloke I know who's lovely, but a compulsive liar. He'll come out with fantastic of tales selfless bravery, and he'll change the details when it suits him, mid flow.lol Much like LDD when he 'sits on a fence' etc.

LDD, tell me something lovely man. Besides being pro-firearms, do you also support the right for convicted purpetrators of violent crimes, and those suffering from a mental condition to own firearms? The NZ Police are not with you on those points, so your not exactly 'legal'. Keeping your firearm under your pillow is a definate breach of licence, not to mention completely irisponsible. So if you actualy do that, please have a little chat with somebody that may help you.

But is that your pro-firearm stance?:- give firearms to any feker who wants one, no matter how violent or irrisponsible they may be?
Or do you see yourself as a special case?

[darkeyes]

I am better than no 1 Duckie... and have never claimed to be.. I am as flawed as anyone else and have often said so.. whether my illegal little bit of dope or ur illegal pistola is the most dangerous to life and limb in our world I leave for others to decide...

[elian]

Are you enjoying ripping each other apart? I'm not even going to make the obligatory joke about "angry make up sex" in this thread because it just isn't funny anymore. Words can hurt just as much as knives, that's what started this whole damn mess in the first place.

[Long Duck Dong]

Is anybody swallowing this? Just out of curiosity.:tongue: Don't get me rong, I like a giggle, and I love chatting to a bloke I know who's lovely, but a compulsive liar. He'll come out with fantastic of tales selfless bravery, and he'll change the details when it suits him, mid flow.lol Much like LDD when he 'sits on a fence' etc.

LDD, tell me something lovely man. Besides being pro-firearms, do you also support the right for convicted purpetrators of violent crimes, and those suffering from a mental condition to own firearms? The NZ Police are not with you on those points, so your not exactly 'legal'. Keeping your firearm under your pillow is a definate breach of licence, not to mention completely irisponsible. So if you actualy do that, please have a little chat with somebody that may help you.

But is that your pro-firearm stance?:- give firearms to any feker who wants one, no matter how violent or irrisponsible they may be?
Or do you see yourself as a special case?

o if you want a answer, reread my posts.....I think in one of them, you took what I said about gun ownership and used it as a weapon against me... so there is no point in asking me the same type of question when I have already stated where I stand on gun ownership

[Long Duck Dong]

I am better than no 1 Duckie... and have never claimed to be.. I am as flawed as anyone else and have often said so.. .

we share the same view there, so how about we agree to disagree over firearms on some aspects, and agree that we share viewpoints on other aspects and leave it at that......and maybe the world may not be a more peaceful place, but this thread would be....and so would the forum... that would be a good start on making the world a more peaceful place......

[Long Duck Dong]

the value of human life......

who values human life more, the person that has a gun in order to protect lives, or the person that has a gun in order to take it....
who values human life more, the person that gives up their own life freely, or the person that runs and hides to protect their own life....
who values human life more, those that die trying to stop a a threat to others or those that pose the threat to others....

who values human life more, the soldier dying on the ground while telling people not to risk their lives to save them or the the soldiers that risk their lives to save a dying comrade.....
who values human life more, the person staying in a burning building, trying to find others or the people that stand outside and yell for that person to come out of the building
who values human life more, the policeman that shoots a person that is shooting at them, to protect you or the shooter that is not shooting at you, but the policeman....

who values human life more, the suicidal person that just wants to let go or the person that tries to force them to stay and live a life they can not handle
who values human life more, the terminal person that wants to die with dignity or the person that wants to keep them alive longer
who values human life more, the person that has to choose between their own lives or the lives of others....

who values human life more, the person that wants to be able to protect their homes and families or the person that wants to take that right away....
who values human life more, the person that wants to terminate a severely deformed foetus or the person that wants other people to give birth to a baby that will never truly have a life worth living....


those that truly value human life equally, place value on their own lives first and not risk them so that others may live, those that do not, find its easier to give their lives so that others will not lose theirs......those that do not value human life, will be the ones that seek to take our lives from us before we are ready to let go of life.....

it is not a question of how much we value human life but how much our life is valued by others, that is the true measure of who values human life more.....

[tenni]

Posts 187-190
Is this a form of asexual cerebral masturbation?:yikes2: ;) :soapbox: :offtopic:

Don't forget to clean up after yourself. :suave:

Tissue dumpling?

[Long Duck Dong]

Posts 187-190
Is this a form of asexual cerebral masturbation?:yikes2: ;) :soapbox: Don't forget to clean up after yourself. :suave: Tissue dumpling?


wondered how long it would take you to bring sexuality and sexual activities into the mix.... thinks for a bit...... yes.... all your normal *weapons * against me, have been used.... time for you to reload I would say....

[void()]

"a person who wants a gun is the type of person to buy one."

Actually, that is not the question of this thread.

What kind of a person wants a gun? That was my question. We've wandered many places but commenting on a person who wants a gun etc. is nonsense ramblings.

I think that I've read a bit on why a person wants a gun. I've read a lot of ramblings off topic about gun violence. I still understand that the kind of person who wants a gun is a person that is afraid of something..violence being the most plausable. The kind of person who wants a gun is the kind of person who considers it natural and essential.

Here you go (http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/kind_2). You asked what kind of person, so accordingly to the definition, yes speaking about the type of person who wants a gun is accurately on topic of the thread. Stop trying to skew your manure with semantics. Not really a surprise you do it. Being a troll in such a fashion though does get annoying.

Sorry if I avoid talking to you further. I do not appreciate trolls of any nature, politely questioning type of people, culture or not. You asked, it was answered. Then you pitch a fit about off topic. Well, it was nice for a bit talking to you. Sorry you ruined our conversations. Have a good one.

[darkeyes]

the value of human life......



those that truly value human life equally, place value on their own lives first and not risk them so that others may live, those that do not, find its easier to give their lives so that others will not lose theirs......those that do not value human life, will be the ones that seek to take our lives from us before we are ready to let go of life.....

it is not a question of how much we value human life but how much our life is valued by others, that is the true measure of who values human life more.....
I have no wish to carry on with this merry banter, and don't dismiss what u say here out of hand for it does have some merit.. I just happen to think very differently about it.. everyone values human life differently.. some their own most of all; some not at all.. some value others more than themselves, and many place no value on any, some consider all human life to be equal.. as I do.. and there are many shades in between. Others is a very broad and sweeping statement.. how others value our lives has no bearing on who values life the more.. how we react to that valuation may have. I am not so arrogant as to claim that I value human life more than u or anyone else for all our differences on the subject of guns, knives or any other subject.. I simply think differently about it from u and others. If I prefer to surrender my life than take that of another in defence of myself or any other does not mean I do not value all human life equally, it simply means that I will not take life for any reason, for while mine own is precious to me, I will not enter the lair of the beast in its defence.

[tenni]

Here you go (http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/kind_2). You asked what kind of person, so accordingly to the definition, yes speaking about the type of person who wants a gun is accurately on topic of the thread. Stop trying to skew your manure with semantics. Not really a surprise you do it. Being a troll in such a fashion though does get annoying.

Sorry if I avoid talking to you further. I do not appreciate trolls of any nature, politely questioning type of people, culture or not. You asked, it was answered. Then you pitch a fit about off topic. Well, it was nice for a bit talking to you. Sorry you ruined our conversations. Have a good one.

There may be some truth about seeing "kind" and "type" as synonomous. However, there have been a lot of wild radical perceptions about my OP. The use of the word "type" was contextualized with bitter ridicule. I have evolved my thoughts but there has been a lot of near manic hatred and blind propaganda for writing my Candian thoughts on a Canadian site. Yes, I believe that majority of posts have been off topic. To refer to me as a troll seems ridiculous. If my words seem inflamatory to you so be it though. I do not censor my curiosity. I was as polite as possible considering that I perceive some of the thoughts as bordering on insane.

[Jason0012]

The thread itself is baiting, the tone and wording of the original post is inflamitory. I have debated trying to respond to this for a few days and refrained. I am just not sure how to respond to the original post. The implication that anyone who owns a gun, or wants one is some sort of sociopath seems unworthy of argument.

[void()]

There may be some truth about seeing "kind" and "type" as synonomous. However, there have been a lot of wild radical perceptions about my OP. The use of the word "type" was contextualized with bitter ridicule. I have evolved my thoughts but there has been a lot of near manic hatred and blind propaganda for writing my Candian thoughts on a Canadian site. Yes, I believe that majority of posts have been off topic. To refer to me as a troll seems ridiculous. If my words seem inflamatory to you so be it though. I do not censor my curiosity. I was as polite as possible considering that I perceive some of the thoughts as bordering on insane.

Quite a problem then, this idea of perception. Really do not think or feel anything I posted was too far out of line for the topic, nor bordering upon insanity. As is pointed out in post #195, the thread was baited from its inception. You're fortunate I bothered any discussion at all. Again, have a good one. No further interest in discussion with you on anything further. May even consider use of the ignore feature, though I'm loathe to bother with it.

[Annika L]

From the OP:


What kind of a person wants to buy a gun?

I can see certain athletes who use guns as part of their competition wanting to buy a gun.


As reasons are given, I see the following as increasingly less credible.

I can not see a person wanting a gun for practice shooting at a target as a valid reason to be given permission to buy a gun.

I do not see it as my right to own a gun regardless of any country's constitution. Anyone who does, has issues that suggest mental instablity....imo.

Hi tenni,

I wanted to sew up a couple points.

First, I realize now that I misread your last point. You do not see it as *your* right to own a gun, regardless of any country's constitution. AHA, I get it! Now I agree with you...you live in a country where you do not have that right...so no country's constitution can grant you that right, and anyone who suggests otherwise is nuts (also kinda addresses that "God given right" crap, which I think you countered nicely in another post). So I'm sorry about questioning this in my first post on this thread: I read it initially as "I do not see it a person's right to own a gun, ...", and it just seemed nuts to me to apply that to people who actually *do* have that right. Your statement is entirely non-controversial, and I'm sorry it took me so long to read it correctly.

Second, I wanted to follow up about target practice. You say in your OP (noted above) that athletes who use a gun in their sport are ok. Such sports generally are concerned with accurately shooting targets. Ok, I get that you don't object to such athletes having a gun to practice their sport. But where do such athletes come from, if recreational target practice is not ok?? It seems more consistent with other beliefs you express to say that such *sports* are not ok. But if such sports are fine, then it only seems reasonable to allow a for a culture where athletes who can compete in the sport can originate and be fostered. In general, if target practice is genuinely the person's only reason for wanting a gun, I can't see what's wrong with that. As others have said, a gun is a tool...if I want a knife for cooking, it's ok (even though safety scissors would often accomplish the same goal, albeit more clumsily); if I want a knife for killing people, it's not; if I want a knife for self-defense, I see that as a bit pathological, or at least neurotic. Yeah the gun Mr./Ms. X buys for target practice can be used to kill people; so can their knife or power drill...if Mr./Ms. X is a homocidal jackass, they'll kill with whatever...but I don't hear many stories of a gun being used for target practice killing people accidentally...so I just don't have issues with this one.

Finally, especially in light of my first point, I do not see anything offensive about the wording in your OP. Some of the ways you've expressed yourself in your followup posts have been insensitive or provocative...but I don't think you drew first blood (so to speak) in the insensitivity or provocation department on this thread.

[BiDaveDtown]

The OP and other people here seem to have a Chekovian view about guns in that if there is a gun it will be fired, and it will kill someone. OMG! :rolleyes: I grew up with guns, learned how to shoot them, and how to respect them and nobody ever got hurt. Millions of other people have had this experience as well and are responsible gun owners. Gun control does nothing to actually protect people or stop having criminals and people who really want to use guns or other weapons from harm from easily getting them and using them to kill or hurt people with them. The whole "OMG what about the children!!!" argument that people now have about guns is silly and these people really do not care about the lives of children at all.

[Sonicmonsoon]

Amazing how firearms and the "right" to bear them is melded into the psyche of a country.

When the constitution was written America was a far different country than it is today. Laws and rights have advanced over the years since the constitution was written. Advancements women's rights, racial rights, sexual rights etc. I really don't see why this "right" hasn't evolved.

Attached is a graphic of deaths per country. And before I get the population comparison argument between the US and Canada; if our populations were the same (~400M), we would be at <1700 deaths/year from firearms.

[Long Duck Dong]

sonic.... work out switzerland and the us in the same way.... and you will find that the swizz suicide by gun death rate would tower over the US......they have 8 mill people but the rate would be around 50K+ people a year.......

then explain to me what it is, that the theft and burglary stats for canada, point to the fact that people are not able to protect their own property .... cos I will point to my own country and say... in my country I can not protect my own property, its illegal..... I have to break the law to be safe in my own home cos of people that want to make people like me defenseless in my own home... but they will never be around to protect my home, will they.....

do you want to live in a way where the criminals are protected from you by law as they break into your home and threaten your family?

[NHExec]

Sorry folks but everyone on this thread has simply missed the point.

In order to ask "Why do we have the Second Amendment?" ... you need to consider the time in which it was written.

After suffering under oppressive government for over 150 years ... we had a Revolution!

When we set in place a new government, the Second Amendment was put in place to ensure that it could be done again!

That is if the government ever got so bad "We the People" could throw them out, as we did the last time and start over!

That is THE ONLY purpose of the amendment and it requires whatever firepower is necessary to ensure a successful outcome.

Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it.



I will gladly discuss this with anyone that wants to have an intelligent conversation about the subject.

For additional information:
The first Amendment was part of the "Bill of Rights" ... the rights of ALL people!

"The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights. Specifically, the amendment prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances."

Let's try and learn from the lessons of history.

[Annika L]

Sorry folks but everyone on this thread has simply missed the point.

In order to ask "Why do we have the Second Amendment?" ... you need to consider the time in which it was written.

After suffering under oppressive government for over 150 years ... we had a Revolution!

When we set in place a new government, the Second Amendment was put in place to ensure that it could be done again!

That is if the government ever got so bad "We the People" could throw them out, as we did the last time and start over!

That is THE ONLY purpose of the amendment and it requires whatever firepower is necessary to ensure a successful outcome.

Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it.



I will gladly discuss this with anyone that wants to have an intelligent conversation about the subject.

For additional information:
The first Amendment was part of the "Bill of Rights" ... the rights of ALL people!

"The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights. Specifically, the amendment prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances."

Let's try and learn from the lessons of history.


I actually think there are a lot of points dealing with firearms...to say everyone has missed them is a bit simplistic. So much for an intelligent conversation.

But if you want to learn from history, so be it. After passing our 2nd Amendment to make sure the people could have an effective revolution toward their government, a bunch of states got together, feeling that their government was no longer acting in their interest or considering their needs, and decided to stage just such a revolution. They had access to exactly the same kinds of weapons their government had access to, more or less. It took a few years for the government to get its act together, but in the end, the message was a resounding NO YOU WILL NOT...that business about being free to rebel? That was for show, not for real. To me, this was the beginning of the death of democracy in this country, btw. Not a popular view, I know.

So let's stop pretending right now that we have firearms to be able to free ourselves from our government...they now outgun us by massive factors. Maybe the civilians could defend themselves if Canada or Mexico attacked...but we cannot successfully rebel against our own government.

So if that's the only purpose? Then it serves no purpose, and we should get rid of it to remove an illusion of freedom we don't really have, and to reduce legal bloat and static.

[Sonicmonsoon]

sonic.... work out switzerland and the us in the same way.... and you will find that the swizz suicide by gun death rate would tower over the US......they have 8 mill people but the rate would be around 50K+ people a year.......

then explain to me what it is, that the theft and burglary stats for canada, point to the fact that people are not able to protect their own property .... cos I will point to my own country and say... in my country I can not protect my own property, its illegal..... I have to break the law to be safe in my own home cos of people that want to make people like me defenseless in my own home... but they will never be around to protect my home, will they.....

do you want to live in a way where the criminals are protected from you by law as they break into your home and threaten your family?

LDD - I am by no means setting Canada out as an ideal as we certainly have our issues. But, theft and burglary rates are actually on decrease looking at 2011 stats and have for some time. As far firearms go something needs to be done south of the border in the form of regulation. Attempting to keep firearms out of the hands of people that shouldn't have them would be a step in the right direction (ie: back ground checks). In addition to putting mental health issues at the forefront.

[NHExec]

I actually think there are a lot of points dealing with firearms...to say everyone has missed them is a bit simplistic. So much for an intelligent conversation.

But if you want to learn from history, so be it. After passing our 2nd Amendment to make sure the people could have an effective revolution toward their government, a bunch of states got together, feeling that their government was no longer acting in their interest or considering their needs, and decided to stage just such a revolution. They had access to exactly the same kinds of weapons their government had access to, more or less. It took a few years for the government to get its act together, but in the end, the message was a resounding NO YOU WILL NOT...that business about being free to rebel? That was for show, not for real. To me, this was the beginning of the death of democracy in this country, btw. Not a popular view, I know.

So let's stop pretending right now that we have firearms to be able to free ourselves from our government...they now outgun us by massive factors. Maybe the civilians could defend themselves if Canada or Mexico attacked...but we cannot successfully rebel against our own government.

So if that's the only purpose? Then it serves no purpose, and we should get rid of it to remove an illusion of freedom we don't really have, and to reduce legal bloat and static.


I think you have failed to learn the lessons of history.

You need to recall that the British were the "most powerful" Nation on earth ... fighting against a handful of colonists with no organization and comparatively very little firepower. They lost!

Not to put too fine a point on it but the current "most powerful" Nation on earth (USA) fought a handful of determined guerrilla forces in Viet Nam. They lost!

Determined people with a real purpose can and WILL succeed when it becomes existential.

We should NEVER allow the Second Amendment to be abridged ... lest we become serfs, vassals and slaves again! As for me - I will die FREE!

[falcondfw]

I thought Drew closed these gun control threads?
Well, leave it up to Tenni to stir up more trouble.
"You don't see it as your right to own a gun regardless of any country's Constitution?" What the heck kind of a statement is that, besides making no sense. The only Constitution you would be concerned with, in the case you stated, is your own. No one else's.
And by the way. Tenni, if your Constitution gives you the right to own or carry a gun (I have no idea if it does. I have not read the Canadian Constitution. Don't even know if they have one.) and you don't want to, there is a simple answer to the problem . . wait for it . . . DON'T CARRY ONE! It is perfectly your right not to carry, if you don't want to. I disagree with your reasoning, but I think everyone already knows that. Just don't go buy one. And stop trying to stir up trouble. It's really getting obnoxious.

[Annika L]

Not to put too fine a point on it but the current "most powerful" Nation on earth (USA) fought a handful of determined guerrilla forces in Viet Nam. They lost!

Determined people with a real purpose can and WILL succeed when it becomes existential.

As for me - I will die FREE!


So let me get this straight.

You think the South in our civil war lacked real purpose and determination...what, they weren't really into it? Huh, I guess no, I never heard that lesson.

But Vietnam beat us because they had purpose and determination, NOT because they had a guarantee in their constitution that civilians could bear arms? Ok, ok. I'm struggling to follow the logic here.

So if determined people can and will succeed when it becomes existential, remind me why we need a right to bear arms? Don't we just wait until it means enough to us and then win?

If you think you will die free, I believe you will die deluded. Only they who accept they will die deluded will die free.

[Annika L]

I thought Drew closed these gun control threads?
Well, leave it up to Tenni to stir up more trouble.

Am I missing something here? Care to explain what mischief tenni has caused here? He hasn't posted on this thread for nearly a month!

You don't like him, ignore him for Pete's sake. I think he's taking enough undeserved crap on his other more recent thread (that has nothing to do with gun control btw), he doesn't need to take it here as well.

I find your unfounded accusations much more obnoxious than any question tenni raises.

[dsj1952]

Characters like Tenni have been brain washed in believing guns are bad. Or is it that the decendants of anyone from the UK is still stewing that we won our independence from them and they know that if we did not have guns then we would be talking with that sissy accent or be sitting around like a smelly Frenchman which of course they would be speaking German right now if we had not charge in there during WWII with our guns and kicked some butt. Now if we had not had the liberty of owning guns then it would have been a whole lot harder training a nitwit that had never shot one. Hey Tenni............GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE...... PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE. Oh yeah keep your butt in that cold waste land called Canada, we don't want you here.

[falcondfw]

Am I missing something here? Care to explain what mischief tenni has caused here? He hasn't posted on this thread for nearly a month!

You don't like him, ignore him for Pete's sake. I think he's taking enough undeserved crap on his other more recent thread (that has nothing to do with gun control btw), he doesn't need to take it here as well.

I find your unfounded accusations much more obnoxious than any question tenni raises.

Annika, is this the first thread that he has posted in that you have read? If not, then my opinion of your powers of perception just dropped a few notches. Almost every thread he posts in he does so to show America in a bad light. Go back and read his threads and you will see, if you don't believe me. I am not one of those people who think America is perfect, but we're a damn sight better off than most of the rest of the world. At least we were until we got the current occupant of the White House and his yes men on Capitol Hill that call themselves Conservatives (with a few exceptions).

[Annika L]

Annika, is this the first thread that he has posted in that you have read? If not, then my opinion of your powers of perception just dropped a few notches. Almost every thread he posts in he does so to show America in a bad light. Go back and read his threads and you will see, if you don't believe me. I am not one of those people who think America is perfect, but we're a damn sight better off than most of the rest of the world. At least we were until we got the current occupant of the White House and his yes men on Capitol Hill that call themselves Conservatives (with a few exceptions).

I see what I see, falcon. And what I see here is that you blame him for "stirring up more trouble" than he already had on this thread, when in fact, he has not posted here in a month; and then when it's pointed out, you try to dodge by impugning his character generally. Are we really supposed to believe that you posted here to decry his behavior in posting other threads? I also see you getting defensive and angry whenever tenni shows you something about this country that you don't want to see. If we can't see our own faults (see them, not just accept in a nebulous sort of way that they exist), we fall prey to them...and as a nation, we're doing just that, and it started long before the current President. Think what you wish about me...my opinion of your opinion is dropping steadily.

[darkeyes]

We should NEVER allow the Second Amendment to be abridged ... lest we become serfs, vassals and slaves again! As for me - I will die FREE!

Fine... we don't have any such clause or amendment in our constitution...we never have had, and we are a pretty free lot.. not vassal or serf... pretty much free of the terror of guns an all which is good.. certainly don't fear Government,,, laugh at it mostly and have gud ole fashioned grumble. Every so often government tries to get heavy and peeps have this habit of saying to themselves "Up with this we will not put"..and they don't... and generally don't need firearms to sort the buggers out either... lil civil disobedience and things change... for the better usually..

..and the British didn't just fight against a handful of colonists in ur revolution..... those colonists had a lil helping hand from the nation that thought of itself as the most powerful nation on earth, and was certainly the second most powerful.. (and the x colonists had help from the same source in the war of 1812..). and with some justice since its navy at the time had better ships, if fewer, brighter Admirals and training that the British lacked... New York would probably not have fallen without the French Navy, and the colonists would have had a much more difficult time winning without the substantial logistical and military support supplied by the French..... it is easily argued that indeed they would not have won without that external and not inconsequential support.. just as it can be argued that Vietnam could not have won without the support provided by the second and third most powerful nations on earth back in the 1960s and early 70s. History is never quite as simple as people make it out to be... never quite so clear cut...

France btw bankrupted itself because of the support it gave to the colonists because the nice grateful colonists thanked them by not trading with France as France and hoped, but continuing to do so with the British, and the massive poverty and misery which ensued was in large part the reason for the French Revolution...now there was an armed revolution by a people against the state u can be proud of eh? That revolution and the experience of France should have lessons for all great powers who decide to involve in foreign conflicts...not that great powers have learned a thing because what happened to France in the 18th century keeps happening to other great powers even now in greater or smaller ways... but always serious and invariably tragic ways...

.. but u are right in this.. determined people can win against overwhelming odds.. the argument is whether or not they require to have a vast arsenal of firearms to do it.. there are many examples throughout history where an unarmed populace has overcome the odds without resorting to guns or weapons of any sort.. except ideas and themselves... and as for never being a vassal or serf.. it can be argued that in reality u are no better than such now.. almost certainly u r a wage slave and so u are a slave to capital as the overwhelming majority of us all are.. and slave to the masters of capital and their servant, the state,.. and so it can be argued very easily that none of us are free until we draw our last breath... so in a sense.. yes babes.. u will die free.. for all the good it will do u...

[darkeyes]

Posts #206, 207 and 210.. spot on Annika... and Falcon hun.. ur anti-tenni slip is showing... there was no need for u to say a word, since it was not tenni who breathed life into the thread but that luffly man, BiDave... I had noticed that Drew hadn't closed down this thread..am surprised u hadn't... tenni to his credit has not uttered a dickie bird since Dave for whatever reason opned his cyber gob and let his belly rumble... stirring?? Provocation??? Naaaaa never!!! Not him!!!!...and now u use those stirrings to do a little stirring and provocation of ur own and it has fallen flat on its face... naughty naughty.. sometimes it is better to let sleeping dogs lie cos occasionally they wake up and bitecha!!

[csrakate]

This thread was quiet for a month. Thanks to BiDave, things are stirring up again and tenni has been wrongly targeted by those who seem to have issues with him. Falcon, if you want to discuss past posts as a reason to hate on someone, perhaps you should check how many times BiDave (or any of his many aliases) has resurrected an old contentious thread. Don't you people ever learn??? Does Drew need to say more about proper forum decorum?

[Brian]

I'm closing this thread - too much nastiness. And I have given bitowndave a 7 day cooling off, mostly for his insults toward another member in another thread.

- Drew :paw: