French people are going to become extinc?

[Nadielosabe]

So... well, I know this might sound weird, but I think ethnic French people (Gauls) are facing a somewhat dangerous situation in Europe. I remember visiting Paris almost ten years ago, in the summer of 2003, when I was fifteen years old, and around half of the people you could see on the street were persons of foreign background. They are mostly immigrants (and descendants of immigrants) from North Africans countries (like Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia) and Sub-saharan Africa (Senegal and Mali) but also you could see lots of Asians (Vietnamese) and Turkish people. I used to be supportive of multiculturalism in my teen years, so the situation didn't strike me as odd at all. However, as I am of French descent on my mother's side, I could not but wonder what would happen if the French became a minority in their own country (or, as some politician put it, 'becoming a colony of its former colonies'). The thing is, I don't think it's an unreasonable fear, since I read in a study a couple of days ago that North African or Black babies are now sixty percent of newborn in the city of Paris. That means in twenty or thirty years the capital city of France will be predominantly African and/or Muslim. Similar rates have been measured in the rest of the country as well, but nowhere as high as in Paris. In the East part of the country (the one facing the Mediterranean sea) it's where most of the newborn children belong to the ethnic and religious 'minorities'. In the West part however, most of the newborn children are ethnic French.

Obviously, I do not think the French are going to become extinct as a people. That would be a silly idea, nonetheless. Also there are lots of French descendants around the world (in Canada, USA, Australia, Latin America...) so some part of their culture might survive. Of course, I know that this allegations maybe can make me seem like some sort of racist. But there has been ethnic and racial tensions on a daily basis on the biggest cities of France. And not all of it is between ethnic French and those of foreign background, but also among those of foreign background themselves as well. For example, between Blacks and Arabs, or between Arabs and Berbers, or between Romani (Gypsies) and Blacks... let's say the interethnic conflict is something more complicated of what it could seem at first sight. Also, rampant poverty among those of foreign background has led to several riots between immigrants and the police.

[Realist]

I think that any country that has an open door policy is apt to have fluctuating ethnic populations. In the US, specifically Florida, there is a huge population of Haitians, Dominicans, and Spanish-speaking people...like Cubans, Mexicans, etc, etc. There's also many Arabs, Indians, Chinese, Vietnamese, and others.

There has been some rare conflicts, but not nearly as bad as you reported in France....so far, at least. I hope that's a trend that keeps up!

[Erotinaughty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PnBBdxns-Zc

[tenni]

My first reaction to post 3 is that it seems to be radical, white supremist to me?

As to whether the French Gauls may become a minority or vanish within the country of France, I am reminded that the Dutch have also experienced such fears and in particular fears that religious beliefs may impact the secular aspect of the Dutch values (which are liberal). The Dutch have set up restrictions and laws.

My own country is very multi ethnic depending upon what part of the country that you are in. I live in a community that is predominately white while other communities are noticably non white. I notice this at times while on Toronto subways. While sitting on the subway and I look around, I actually count the number of white people visible from my seat. Sometimes it is less than 10 %. The people seem to be a wide variety of non Caucasians. This is in the downtown business section to boot and not areas that are predominantly non white homes. I noticed in on London England tube rides as well but actually less so in London than Toronto. Toronto is one of the most multi ethnic cities in the world ..so we are told. Yet, few wear the niqab but increasingly women are seen with their head covered. In London, I came out of one tube station (near White Chapel) to see mostly niquab wearing women. Walk a few blocks and that changed.

I recall reading/hearing that eventually the human race will inter bred and the result is something like a tan skin coloured, brown eyes person with more Asian eye shape. The Caucasian appearance will disappear but so with the Negroid appearance.

A Canada Supreme court ruling has just come down today on Muslim women wearing the niqab in court. Here is the Supreme Court supporting the lower courts ruling on whether/when a woman may wear a niqab. This is in reference to the Dutch reaction to fear of their values being altered by the immigrant population increasing rapidly.

The Court of Appeal had ruled the woman may have to remove her niqab if her credibility became an issue. It also set out criteria that a judge must consider:
Whether the veil interfered with the cross-examination.
Whether the witness would be appearing before a judge only or before a jury.
The nature of the evidence.

N.S. (rape victim) appealed to the Supreme Court of Canada, arguing her sincere religious beliefs meant that her face must be covered before all males who are not close relatives.
Lawyers for the two men accused of sexually assaulting her when she was a child argued that a fair and open trial means the face of a witness must be seen because facial cues are important to establish credibility.
The case now goes back to the preliminary inquiry stage, where it is possible the woman may be forced to testify with her face uncovered.

The Supreme Court ruling is being described as a 4-2-1 decision, given the differences between the judges.

The majority judges allowed that "scientific exploration" in future cases about cues given by the face of a witness may enhance or diminish the arguments made in this particular case. But, they added, "It may be ventured that where the liberty of the accused is at stake, the witness's evidence is central to the case, and her credibility vital, the possibility of a wrongful conviction must weight heavily in the balance, favouring removal of the niqab."

The question to the OP, why are you concerned about the Gaul appearance disappearing? Fear of what?

[Nadielosabe]

First of all, thanks for the answers. I know this is a delicate topic and that it might not be the most appropiate forum to bring it up, but I wanted to know the opinions of the users. Tenni, allow me to answer to your last question first. I guess in Canada and in the United States multiculturalism has always been the norm in some areas, whereas in Spain and other countries of Western Europe it has been a relatively recent phenomenon. Before 1996, Spain did not really have much immigration (only some British and German expatriates living in the Canary Islands, in Ibiza or in Andalusia). However, after that year there was an official open-door policy regarding immigration, which has led to the country to have a diversity that previously was unheard of. Between fifteen or twenty per cent of Spain´s population are immigrants or children of immigrants. The two foreigh ethnicities most present are Romanians and Moroccans (which each group having around one million members within the country borders). Also there are several Latin American nationalities represented, with Ecuadorians, Colombians and Bolivians having also a heavy presence. I know that in big cities like capitals it is normal to always see a foreign presence, since it is the prefered destinations of most immigrants (it is where the job opportunities are, after all). But when British people start becoming lower than half of the population in London and French people do so in Paris, well, one cannot help but raise a brow... I did this question regarding the French mostly because I think that what has happened in France will eventually happen in other countries in Western Europe (especially England, Spain, Belgium, the Netherlands...). I am worried because if the French disappear in a couple of generations, so will the Spaniards do soon after. I am worried as a person who fears for the future of his ethnic group, not his race. I am talking as a Spaniard, not as an European. However, I must say that I do not think that humans inter-bred to the point that races will disappear. I find that a very unlikely predictament. Caucasoid people are only 8% of the world's population, Negroids and Mongoloids (Asians primarily, but also Native Americans in the Southern part of the continent) being clearly superior in numbers. If the different races were to interbred, possibly the Caucasoid features would be absorded into the Mongoloid or Negroid mix. Also, I think that some people mistakenly (in my humble opinion) believe miscegenation will be the thing that will eradicate racism and xenophobia from the face on Earth... I think this is not a very realistic outlook. Having contact with several Latin American countries where miscegenation has been always the norm to some extent, I have seen that even mixed race people are capable of racism against each other and against people who are pure (if you want to put it that way, although I think all humans are mixed to some extent). In Mexico, Mestizos (those of mixed European and Native American parentage) discriminate against Native Americans, and both of them are discriminated by Whites.

I am asking this question because simply, I think the land is of the people who populates it. If Gauls disappear or become a minority, then the land becomes of the Arabs, Berbers and Blacks, the people who are working on it. My thread is not an attempt to engage in an attack towards immigrants or minorities in France. It just simply that I think that, having an open-door policy regarding immigration, the French have comitted ethnic and cultural suicide (it is not a genocide, a genocide is when people are killed by other group... this thing just was the French letting themselves being slowly invaded). And so have the Dutch, by the way. When fifty percent of Rotterdam population is of foreign Muslim background, it doesn't matter if the Dutch laws try to ban the use of the Niqab or Burka. In a couple of years they can make a referendum or a proposition, and allow it again, since it is a cultural feature most of the population identifies with (and yeah, I know there are secular Arabs or Muslims, but most of those who live in Europe are more conservative than native Europeans). And no, I am not a white supremacist, but I believe the Western part of Europe is heading in a very dangerous direction, and that there might be a future interethnic or interreligious conflict in a couple of decades. And it is very possible that lots of good people (on both sides) who have done nothing wrong end up being hurt. I do think that multiethnic states are an Utopia... if they exist, I'm afraid it is because either one ethnicity is exploiting the others (South Africa) or because they live in a totalitarian regime (like the URSS or Cuba). I am aware there can be exceptions, but if you think of it, it becomes easier to know why the Democratic Republic of the Congo is one of the most war-torn countries, with 250 ethnic groups living within its boundaries... some people are just not made to live with each other. And I'm afraid something similar it is going to happen in Europe.

[gen11]

Haven't read all the long posts, so this may have been covered: Sociologists say a culture must have a birth rate of about 2.3 children per pair of parents to survive and not become extinct. The US is barely above that; Spain, I think, is below it; I don't remember about France; but I do remember Germany has been below it so much, so long, that it is thought to be beyond revival, and within a few generations there will be no more Germans. NOTE: The birth rate among Arabic cultures is over 9.

[gen11]

Another thought: The only cultures to survive from ancient times are those who remained cohesive (Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Arabic, for instance). ALL "multicultural" civilizations have perished up through the fall of the Roman Empire. What happens beyond that is yet to unfold. But the recent implications of changes within the United States don't bode well for the survival of our form of government, at least.

[darkeyes]

Why does the OP's posts remind me of the manifesto and rantings of Anders Breivik?

..and Gen? Is the US system of government so wonderful that it has a right to survive no matter what? None is so perfect.. not even that of the US.. that it cannot be replaced with something better. Peoples and cultures do disappear, but mostly they absorb or are absorbed into another people and another culture.. generally, they don't disappear entirely.. they change and morph into another people and another culture.. should we be afraid of that? Not really.. it's how it has been throughout the ages and how no doubt it shall always be... possibly we should be wary of how those changes come about, but we shouldn't be afraid of them per se... we are supposed to be intelligent, civilised and compassionate beings.. when it comes to change we should actually try and live up to what we are supposed to be instead of throwing around fear and hate of difference as so many do and work out how best we can live together and make these changes which are inevitable work for the good of humankind and not for the continuation of xenophobia, racism and human division...

[Gearbox]

But when British people start becoming lower than half of the population in London and French people do so in Paris, well, one cannot help but raise a brow...
According to genetic markers, the 'English' are the result of racial cleansing by the Anglo Saxons, and the Welsh are the 'original Brits'. (I'm not sure about the Scotish and Irish though.lol).
So your too late worrying about Londoners being racialy submerged. Already happened genetically.:bigrin:

[tenni]

Gen and darkeyes

I think that the OP is not discussing culture as much as the elimination of the Gauls. This may be closer to a fear of genocide? The biggest issue may be whether it is systemic elimination of the Gauls? That seems unlikely but Spain has attempted to shut the door on economic migrants from Africa and failed so far. This may be closer to the OP's thoughts and fears?

The extermination of a group may happen but the language may remain. As the immigrant groups increase and their birth rate continue to be higher than the Gauls the numbers of the ethnicity of most people They may still speak French. They may still keep cultural elements but possibly values and attitudes of the new groups may mix with the Gaulic culture or pressure to replace some aspects. The belief that certain clothes acceptable while other clothes, customs diminish. It could be both a genocide and cultural alteration. Most blendings that darkeyes refers to impact the culture to some extent but not exterminate the original people. The Brits are a mixture of various ethnic peoples who invaded Britain over a long period. That's why a few Brits have Roman noses with blue eyes...Welshmen too. I am less certain about the Irish after all they are different from the English..closer to the Scots maybe Celts? There is a definite English appearance in my opinion. I still saw it this summer on the tube. I had also seen it in my own country back in the day when most people in Canada were from Britain. Those genes have continued over centuries but with so much more economic migration other genes may be introduced.

The Japanese have remained strongly intact for several reasons. They are an island. The Chinese invaded but when the West approached there was a stiff resistance to even let them stay on the islands. Even after defeat of WW2, the Japanese have been able to resist integration of other groups(I think..could be wrong)

[maggie1974]

Obviously I need to be very careful in commenting as in the UK we are not far short of persecuted if we express any views on race or ethnicity - but - only last week the result of a recent population census was published and it clearly showed the variety of ethnicity and the percentage increase in racial groups. As someone who is very likely to be a remnant of Celtic peoples (born in our west country and having dark hair/pale skin etc) I am very aware that the "visible face" of society is changing ethnically. I welcome the change, and I have Eastern European neighbours who are lovely and Asian neighbours just over the road who are also lovely. I guess it is just part of life's great melting pot, but it certainly has changed hugely since I was a child and I do rather worry that the UK's "open door" policy may ultimatley result in unwelcome racial tensions.

[darkeyes]

Gen and darkeyes

I think that the OP is not discussing culture as much as the elimination of the Gauls. This may be closer to a fear of genocide? The biggest issue may be whether it is systemic elimination of the Gauls? That seems unlikely but Spain has attempted to shut the door on economic migrants from Africa and failed so far. This may be closer to the OP's thoughts and fears?

The extermination of a group may happen but the language may remain. As the immigrant groups increase and their birth rate continue to be higher than the Gauls the numbers of the ethnicity of most people They may still speak French. They may still keep cultural elements but possibly values and attitudes of the new groups may mix with the Gaulic culture or pressure to replace some aspects. The belief that certain clothes acceptable while other clothes, customs diminish. It could be both a genocide and cultural alteration. Most blendings that darkeyes refers to impact the culture to some extent but not exterminate the original people. The Brits are a mixture of various ethnic peoples who invaded Britain over a long period. That's why a few Brits have Roman noses with blue eyes...Welshmen too. I am less certain about the Irish after all they are different from the English..closer to the Scots maybe Celts? There is a definite English appearance in my opinion. I still saw it this summer on the tube. I had also seen it in my own country back in the day when most people in Canada were from Britain. Those genes have continued over centuries but with so much more economic migration other genes may be introduced.

The Japanese have remained strongly intact for several reasons. They are an island. The Chinese invaded but when the West approached there was a stiff resistance to even let them stay on the islands. Even after defeat of WW2, the Japanese have been able to resist integration of other groups(I think..could be wrong)
I know what he was talking about tenni and answered in that spirit.. I believe in free movement of peoples and am unafraid of the consequences.. I am not paranoid nor do I hate... culture is what people are about, but it changes and as peoples change, culture changes.. like people it is not cast in stone nor should it be... it should be vibrant and ever changing even if a people does not "mix" with another......

[darkeyes]

According to genetic markers, the 'English' are the result of racial cleansing by the Anglo Saxons, and the Welsh are the 'original Brits'. (I'm not sure about the Scotish and Irish though.lol).
So your too late worrying about Londoners being racialy submerged. Already happened genetically.:bigrin:Spain is no different to England in many ways Gear.... just what is an ethnic Spaniard?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_people

[Nadielosabe]

Another thought: The only cultures to survive from ancient times are those who remained cohesive (Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Arabic, for instance). ALL "multicultural" civilizations have perished up through the fall of the Roman Empire. What happens beyond that is yet to unfold. But the recent implications of changes within the United States don't bode well for the survival of our form of government, at least.

This is exactly what I was talking about. A state which population keeps changing ends up transforming itself, its customs and its laws. It is not something xenophobic to say so, it has been happening since the dawn of mankind. So, now that it is happening in Europe, just the question I am asking myself is "What is going to happen to us?". I am not calling anybody to take up arms and start a war, I'm just pointing out what it is happening. Darkeyes, it pains me that you are comparing me to Breivik, since he is a child murderer, a Zionist and a Freemason, and I'm neither of those things (although obviously I consider being a child murderer far worse than being a Zionist or a Freemason, please take in mind). I am not calling for violence, in any way. I am just telling people to think this over. I think that just the mere fact of expressing doubts about immigration makes one being branded immediately as a fascist or a Nazi, which fortunately it's not true. In fact, I think that this is the only topic in which I could regard myself as a conservative. In other topics (sexuality obviosly included) I am pretty much liberal. And that's why I fear also for the future of the Western part of the continent, since wars and ethnic conflict always end up being a breeding ground for extremists of all kinds. I'm afraid that in the case there is a conflict, people will turn to some leader who will offer them to live in peace if they remain under his or her thumb. Not exactly a Hitler or a Stalin, but close enough to see a resemblance... and LGBT people (including bisexual people) are going to be on a very precarious situation. The fact that we change cultures is secondary to me (even if it pains me), but I am most worried of what happens to me as a bisexual person regarding those changes.

By the way Darkeyes, I know Spanish people are comprised of several ethnic groups (I am Galician and Canarian, for example), but it is clear that between ourselves we have more in common than with a person from another country. Also, you can include people descended from Spaniards (like Whites in Latin America) as ethnic Spaniards too, if you will, although most of them identify as citizens of whatever country they are residing in. For example, a White Mexican will most probably identify as a Mexican rather than as a Spaniard. I have seen the exact opposite happen in the United States, a person with Irish grandparents will most probably identify as Irish-American, despite having lived all their lives in the USA.

Point taken, Gearbox, but I very much doubt the Welsh were very happy about the Anglo-Saxons taking their land for themselves. When you and your ancestors have worked on a land during all your history, you try to put up a fight even if you are considered only a petty nuisance. The thing is... I think this is happening because we have become very lazy in ourselves. We do not know the value hard work has, as our ancestors did. We have become hedonistic, despondent, dependant on the state to organize our own affairs...

[Gearbox]

Spain is no different to England in many ways Gear.... just what is an ethnic Spaniard?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_people
Yes it's all a bit wonky realy. We are all suposed to be Africans who trecked off and became 'ethnic varients' over time. God knows what we looked like then, and I'm buggered how we managed to become so racialy diverse. BUT if that happened once, it could happen again (as far as I know).
So maybe if we spend enough time in a particular area/country, we'll change anyway?

*If theres any genetisists reading this, stop laughing and shine some light please.lol*

If you visit St Fagans in Wales where there are houses once used by iron age Celts, you'd notice how short as a race we used to be. It would be very cramped for modern day lanky buggers to live in one of them.lol
But God bless the promiscuous bisexuals who infected us with the bi gene.:tongue:
Yes that's right! Out of my depth here.lol

[Escribure]

What a weird question !!!
I haven't time enough, right now, to answer thoroughly to it.
May it suffice for now that as French person, I din't think I'm an endangered specie. Also, I don't think I've got a lot in common with the Gauls, which are a kind a mythical roots form Roman antiquity, an not even with the Francs whose chief Clovis became the first christian King of France.
France has change since those time. And no doubt it will change again now that it's part of European Community, which maintains peace within its boundaries and allows European foreigners to move freely and to build a shared identity from a shared, and sometime contentious, history...

I'll come back later on the subject.

[gen11]

Nadielosabe, I hope others will recognize the knowledge and insight -- and restraint -- of your post in which you quoted me (reference to quotation only to identify which of your posts I refer to--my quoted comments irrelevant for any other purpose here). However I suspect your points require a knowledge and sense of history and of current events to appreciate. I would not waste time or effort trying to explain your concerns or your beliefs to anyone who shows only a shallow idealogue's grasp of the long view of human history.

[Nadielosabe]

What a weird question !!!
I haven't time enough, right now, to answer thoroughly to it.
May it suffice for now that as French person, I din't think I'm an endangered specie. Also, I don't think I've got a lot in common with the Gauls, which are a kind a mythical roots form Roman antiquity, an not even with the Francs whose chief Clovis became the first christian King of France.
France has change since those time. And no doubt it will change again now that it's part of European Community, which maintains peace within its boundaries and allows European foreigners to move freely and to build a shared identity from a shared, and sometime contentious, history...

I'll come back later on the subject.

Allright, as a French person you might shed some light into the matter. May I ask, in which part of France do you live? What do you think about Muslims and other ethnic or religious minorities? Is your relationship with them good? Do they agree with you in some of your opinions? After all, it is your homeland we are talking about, you will probably know more about it than I do. I know that referring to the French as 'Gauls' might be wrong, since they are also descended from Franks, Visigoths and other Germanic peoples... just like the Spaniards are descended from the Lusitanians, the Goths, the Romans, the Moors... ethnicities are formed through history and later they disappear, being absorbed by other ethnicities or cultures. However, they rarely do so willingly, and that's why I am concerned... I think the culture of France it's going to change. And not exactly for the better. In the best of cases, it will become a predominantly Muslim country in some parts and that's it, it will mean that there will be changes regarding France's laws. Maybe they will even stop being a secular state. In the worst of cases, an ethnic conflict happens, and lots of innocent people die or have to flee the country to escape war.

Gen, I hope you don't find my view on this subjetc obnoxious. I know I can be wrong, I am not a omniscient person. Maybe I am just being too paranoid, but I know that humans are capable of very violent behaviour, if they feel cornered enough. I am studying Sociology, and I am a firm believer of what Karl Marx or Max Weber called the 'theory of conflict', that human history is always advancing due to conflict between different groups. Karl Marx limited this viewpoint to the fight between social classes (the burgeouis and the proletarians), but Max Weber extended this concept to the fight between different ethnic or religious groups, or groups with different ideologies. Of course, this conflict doesn't always has to be open.

[darkeyes]

President Kennedy said that going to the moon wasn't being done because it is easy but because it is hard... similarly humanity getting along isn't easy.. the merging of peoples is hard.. of cultures.. but it is desirable.. and it is happening in countries and continents all across the planet in the modern era mostly relatively peacefully, but with some regrettable conflict......both peoples and cultures will change as they have always changed, but humanity becoming truly one species, one human race is hard.. but it is desirable.. we need to assess and consider what the difficulties will be to ensure that as far as possible it is peaceful... but because difficulties exist does not mean they cannot and will not be overcome...

[Erotinaughty]

I believe that each of us must be committed to the preservation of Human diversity. I cherish not only the value of every form of life in what we call biodiversity, but also in the diversity of Mankind. I believe that every people has the right to preserve their expression of Humanity, its heritage and culture. That every people on earth has the right rule themselves and the right to be free and independent.http://www.davidduke.com/wp-includes/js/tinymce/plugins/wordpress/img/trans.gif


Human freedom is the principle that all peoples must be free to be different. Humanity is not one, it is many. Destroying the variety, diversity and freedom of a diverse Humanity is a destruction of Humanity itself. And not recognizing the inborn urge of every people to express their essence in their own forms of art, music, culture, religion, societal structure and government, leads to Human conflict and often to violence and Human suffering on a horrific scale. Much of the world’s conflict is not because peoples and cultures are different, it is that they are not allowed to be different. Although this topic is a bit distant from the specific intent of this site, I think the message of acceptance is very apropos.

[jimdawg]

By the way Darkeyes, I know Spanish people are comprised of several ethnic groups (I am Galician and Canarian, for example), but it is clear that between ourselves we have more in common than with a person from another country.

Spanish people have nothing in common with Moroccans-Arab or Berbers-apparently...

Oh the irony.

[Nadielosabe]

With Berbers, we might share the same phenotype (physical features), since there are several Berber ethnicities that are Caucasian and Mediterranean in appeareance (Riffians from Northern Morocco or Kabyles from Northern Algeria). However, we are culturally very different, and not only in the religious aspect. With Moroccans of Arab descent (who make up two-thirds of Morocco's population, the rest being Berbers and Blacks) we have absolutely nothing in common, not even the phenotype. One of the reasons for that it´s because most Muslims that conquered Spain in the 8th Century A.D. were Berbers, who were the ones who mostly intermarried with the local Spanish population. Arabs among them were only a military and religious elite that rarely intermarried either with the Berbers or with the Spaniards, and if they did they were absorbed into it until no Semitic physical features remained. The same thing happened in Argentina with Black people, actually. In the beginning of the 19th Century, people of Black African descent made up fifteen percent of Argentina's population. However, nowadays they make up less than one percent of it, most of it recent immigrants or mixed. And no, there was no genocide, at least in the traditional sense of the word. What happened was that Africans ended up intermarrying with wave after wave of European immigrants (Spaniards, Italians, Croatians, Jews...), which led to them being absorbed by Argentina's white population. The same thing happened to Arabs in Spain, if they dared to intermarry out of their ethnic group. So, the stereotype of Spaniards being descended from Arabs is just quite an exageration...

You put a random Spanish man together with a random Arab-Moroccan and you will surely know how to tell them apart. That doesn´t mean that there are not Arabs who can look like a Spaniard or Spaniards who can look like Arabs, but if you have been living in Spain or Morocco during all your life you will surely know how to tell them apart.

Edit: Oh, and coincidentaly, a very happy Christmas to all of you guys and gals! You are awesome!

[jamieknyc]

I believe that each of us must be committed to the preservation of Human diversity. I cherish not only the value of every form of life in what we call biodiversity, but also in the diversity of Mankind. I believe that every people has the right to preserve their expression of Humanity, its heritage and culture. That every people on earth has the right rule themselves and the right to be free and independent.http://www.davidduke.com/wp-includes/js/tinymce/plugins/wordpress/img/trans.gif


Human freedom is the principle that all peoples must be free to be different. Humanity is not one, it is many. Destroying the variety, diversity and freedom of a diverse Humanity is a destruction of Humanity itself. And not recognizing the inborn urge of every people to express their essence in their own forms of art, music, culture, religion, societal structure and government, leads to Human conflict and often to violence and Human suffering on a horrific scale. Much of the world’s conflict is not because peoples and cultures are different, it is that they are not allowed to be different. Although this topic is a bit distant from the specific intent of this site, I think the message of acceptance is very apropos.

There is one important difference between America and Europe, though. What you said makes perfect sense for America, where everyone except a small number of Indians are immigrants and no group of immigrants has any real claim to precedence over anyone else. In Europe, each country has an indigenous people and a greater or larger number of foreign immigrants. In past years, they were mostly from other European countries and were people of similar culture and heritage, but today they are mostly non-European. It won't happen in large countries France, but in many of the smaller countries of Europe, people like the Swiss or the Danes don't want to become a minority in their own country. Fran, for all her rhetoric does not want to see her country become the Islamic Republic of Scotland.

[Nadielosabe]

There is one important difference between America and Europe, though. What you said makes perfect sense for America, where everyone except a small number of Indians are immigrants and no group of immigrants has any real claim to precedence over anyone else. In Europe, each country has an indigenous people and a greater or larger number of foreign immigrants. In past years, they were mostly from other European countries and were people of similar culture and heritage, but today they are mostly non-European. It won't happen in large countries France, but in many of the smaller countries of Europe, people like the Swiss or the Danes don't want to become a minority in their own country. Fran, for all her rhetoric does not want to see her country become the Islamic Republic of Scotland.

This is pretty much what I wanted to say. The same thing you have mentioned about America could also be extrapolated to other countries like Australia, New Zealand or even South Africa (where a sizable portion of the Black community who lived under apartheid were brought as slaves from other parts of the continent). Other than the aboriginal people (Indigenous Australians, Maoris in New Zealand or Khoisans in South Africa) nobody has any real claim to the land. However, in Europe the Europeans are the indigenous people... so what is happening in some of these countries could be considered a colonization of sorts. And it would pain me to see the Scottish people disappear, since they are a group, along with the Irish, who I admire a lot. However, on the other hand, Scotland is one of the constituent countries of the United Kingdom with less immigration. Most of its population is ethnically Scottish and the few immigrants who live there are mostly educated and civil people who are quickly assimilated in the local population.

[pole_smoker]

With Berbers, we might share the same phenotype (physical features), since there are several Berber ethnicities that are Caucasian and Mediterranean in appeareance (Riffians from Northern Morocco or Kabyles from Northern Algeria). However, we are culturally very different, and not only in the religious aspect. With Moroccans of Arab descent (who make up two-thirds of Morocco's population, the rest being Berbers and Blacks) we have absolutely nothing in common, not even the phenotype. One of the reasons for that it´s because most Muslims that conquered Spain in the 8th Century A.D. were Berbers, who were the ones who mostly intermarried with the local Spanish population. Arabs among them were only a military and religious elite that rarely intermarried either with the Berbers or with the Spaniards, and if they did they were absorbed into it until no Semitic physical features remained. The same thing happened in Argentina with Black people, actually. In the beginning of the 19th Century, people of Black African descent made up fifteen percent of Argentina's population. However, nowadays they make up less than one percent of it, most of it recent immigrants or mixed. And no, there was no genocide, at least in the traditional sense of the word. What happened was that Africans ended up intermarrying with wave after wave of European immigrants (Spaniards, Italians, Croatians, Jews...), which led to them being absorbed by Argentina's white population. The same thing happened to Arabs in Spain, if they dared to intermarry out of their ethnic group. So, the stereotype of Spaniards being descended from Arabs is just quite an exageration...

You put a random Spanish man together with a random Arab-Moroccan and you will surely know how to tell them apart. That doesn´t mean that there are not Arabs who can look like a Spaniard or Spaniards who can look like Arabs, but if you have been living in Spain or Morocco during all your life you will surely know how to tell them apart.

Edit: Oh, and coincidentaly, a very happy Christmas to all of you guys and gals! You are awesome!

Very true. Have you ever had your DNA tested? Some people from Spain do have North-African heritage, or even an Arabic heritage. However it's like you said if you know what to look for you can tell Arabs, Iberian people, and people from North Africa apart. But many people in Southern Italy also have an ancestry from North-Africa (they're not black as you said), Spanish/Iberian, or Arabic. You will find a lot of people in Italy who have a heritage that's both Spanish, Greek, or from other countries like Germany or France.

I have noticed in European countries in the last two decades a lot of illegal African immigrants illegally enter many European countries such as Italy and then get free food and housing, while there are a lot of people in Italy who are starving and homeless since things have gone down the toilet since Italy entered the E.U. and switched to the Euro. It is like this in Spain as well.

You also have a lot of Fundamentalist Muslims moving to many European countries who getting angry that people do not like their extreme forms of Islam, and do not want to practice Sharia law. This includes Hindus, Buddhists, and people who are Muslim but moderate and not Fundamentalist or into the extreme forms of Islam that practice Sharia law.

The United States also has a major problem with people from south of the border entering into the United States. Yet they also get free food, housing, benefits, and medical care while our own people are homeless and starving.

However if you talk to most people in the United States they foolishly think that most people from Spain look like people from central and South America. Which is not true.

[darkeyes]

According to genetic markers, the 'English' are the result of racial cleansing by the Anglo Saxons, and the Welsh are the 'original Brits'. (I'm not sure about the Scotish and Irish though.lol).
So your too late worrying about Londoners being racialy submerged. Already happened genetically.:bigrin:the genetic and DNA make up of most British people believe it or not remains much as it was at the time of the Norman conquest.. and the Roman invasion.. some dilution is inevitable but incoming populations were absorbed by the native Scots Irish and English as well the the welsh.. Scots are more or less as pure or impure as the West, English and Irish.. the Welsh are no more the original Brits than Scots Irish or English unless we have Beaker people DNA and I dont know that very many if any do.. the Welsh do speak the Celtic language of the ancient Britons because it is there that it held on.. its sister language Cornish died out only just a hundred years ago or so and attempts are being made to revive it.. Irish Gaelic is as old a language as Welsh and Scots gaelic came from the Irish although Welsh does seem to come from a different branch of the Celtic family. Breton from Brittany France is also similar to Welsh... the British and Irish do seem to have a different ancestry with the British being more "Welsh". DNA of Successive influxes does exist in the Britsh and Irish makeup but fundamentally there isnt a lot of change in the last couple of thousands year.. even when conquered the native dna has simnply won out..I would think the same situation exists in France... so Gauls exist I would think in French DNA just as Britons do in the present British and Irish in the Irish.. strange old world, Gear hey???..

[tenni]

I would think that the Irish would want nothing to do with the Scots or English. With both Scots and English thought of as invaders ..after all Ireland is not on the same island as the Scots, English or Welsh.

I'm not sure about the Welsh as they are probably rarely thought of...living around the bend so to speak. Then again, the Irish may feel kinship with the Welsh in opposition of the English and Scots... ;)

Hell, give the Irish a couple of pints and they may make love (or war) with anyone regardless of genetics..lol

Canadians use to refer to being "English" or "French" but that dealt mostly with language. The cultural difference between English Canadian included all others genetics just as long as they spoke English as a mother tongue. The French Canadians who are purl a n think of themselves as going back to 1600 linguistics and French culture that has evolved different from Parisienne. The Quebecois culturally are not the same as the Francophones from Paris or Marseilles.

[pole_smoker]

Darkeyes are you going to vote for or against Scottish independence? What are your thoughts on it?

[cuttin2dachase]

I heard that the factory in Paris that manufactures white flags burned to the ground a few days ago, leaving France with absolutely no military capability.

[darkeyes]

Darkeyes are you going to vote for or against Scottish independence? What are your thoughts on it?
Independence can work.. but am against it.. and will so vote.. I believe in peoples being united not splitting up... which is why I am pro EU..I have often stated my view on this site.. so u have it again...

[darkeyes]

I would think that the Irish would want nothing to do with the Scots or English. With both Scots and English thought of as invaders ..after all Ireland is not on the same island as the Scots, English or Welsh.

I'm not sure about the Welsh as they are probably rarely thought of...living around the bend so to speak. Then again, the Irish may feel kinship with the Welsh in opposition of the English and Scots... ;)

Hell, give the Irish a couple of pints and they may make love (or war) with anyone regardless of genetics..lol

Canadians use to refer to being "English" or "French" but that dealt mostly with language. The cultural difference between English Canadian included all others genetics just as long as they spoke English as a mother tongue. The French Canadians who are purl a n think of themselves as going back to 1600 linguistics and French culture that has evolved different from Parisienne. The Quebecois culturally are not the same as the Francophones from Paris or Marseilles.Not so, tenni... 'bout the Irish ne way.. hundreds of thousands of Irish live throughout the UK.. and vice versa.. and we all work together within the EU.. the Irish may live in a different island.. but an island which is part of the British Isles... funny ole world hey?;)

.. and the Scots have a similar predilection to the Irish after a couple of pints..:eek2: the English 2 and prob the Welsh...

[catcir1]

Of course, I know that this allegations maybe can make me seem like some sort of racist. .

Truth is not racism. Thank goodness people are still willing to speak up about the truth in spite of people screaming "racist!"

[piercedbi]

So the Native French are being extinct. Good the French are a weak people. They haven't won a war since Napoleon led them

[jamieknyc]

I heard that the factory in Paris that manufactures white flags burned to the ground a few days ago, leaving France with absolutely no military capability.
I doubt you would have had the courage of my grandfather's cousin, who fought the Germans in the resistance in Paris for four years. Granted, he wasn't born there, but he still risked his life to do it.

[pole_smoker]

Independence can work.. but am against it.. and will so vote.. I believe in peoples being united not splitting up... which is why I am pro EU..I have often stated my view on this site.. so u have it again...

OK thanks for explaining. I did ask you in another thread but you did not see it.


I'm for Scottish independence as the EU and Euro do not seem to be working for certain European countries.

[cuttin2dachase]

The French Resistance existed because the French military waved the white flag, then fled to the south and sued for peace less than a year. They ceded most of France to Hitler in exchange for sitting out the rest of WW2, until the US, UK and USSR victory over Germany was assured. They have been a very fickle ally to us and many other countries throughout history. Pardon me if I make a jokes about the joke which is the French military.

[darkeyes]

The French Resistance existed because the French military waved the white flag, then fled to the south and sued for peace less than a year. They ceded most of France to Hitler in exchange for sitting out the rest of WW2, until the US, UK and USSR victory over Germany was assured. They have been a very fickle ally to us and many other countries throughout history. Pardon me if I make a jokes about the joke which is the French military.
Really? Without France as ur ally during the revolutionary war and the war of 1812 it is quite likely that the US would have lost both wars.. so don't knock them. Ur reading of ww2 is fine as far as it goes... but do me a favour and do more reading about the French contribution to that war and its record as an ally to many nations.. I am sure the people of southern Vietnam could say much the same of the US regarding white flags and fickleness... and me own country can likewise b slagged off in just the same way by other countries.. maybe even us. . No country is perfect... not France, not mine, and serpently not urs...

[darkeyes]

OK thanks for explaining. I did ask you in another thread but you did not see it.


I'm for Scottish independence as the EU and Euro do not seem to be working for certain European countries.
The EU isn't perfect.. but is and always has been -much better than the right of my country and it's media wankers would gave people believe. English right wing paranoia is mostly to blame for the perception that it is bad for certainly the UK. .that's because they have to compromise too much and can't do what the hell they like with British people.. should Scotland gain independence the intention of all parties is that Scotland seek to remain in the EU or be admitted if the pro union parties do manage to block automatic admittance on the day independence arrives.. The euro is a different matter and the jury is out whether a common currency is a good or bad thing.. personally, it seems logical to me to gave a common currency in Europe but the snap have set their face against using the euro as Scotland currency..They want to retain Sterling.. and the history of that currency isn't that great in my lifetime to make me think that is a good long term option.. No consideration at all us given to the country having its own currency.. So don't knock the EU too muchigh. . We can't say whether anything is a good thing until we are a few years down the line after Independence day should it ever come to pass. . But I am quite sure that if the UK remains a single state, and it leaves the EU,after 2017, we will all go down the loo..

[pole_smoker]

So the Native French are being extinct. Good the French are a weak people. They haven't won a war since Napoleon led them
Yes because winning a war is what shows or proves what a country's worth is.

FYI the United States did not win the Vietnam war, and we are not going to "win" the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan either.

[pole_smoker]

I was on another site and people there are claiming that "French culture is dead!" because of Muslims there; but I don't agree with this.

Haven't these people ever actually been to France? There's a lot more to France than just Paris which has always been a melting pot for different cultures and religions.

[Nadielosabe]

Hello, I was the one who opened this thread back in the day... a lot of time has elapsed, and I think it might have been through enough experiences to moderate my views on the subject. I don't think that French people are going to become extinct, but I still think that the current levels of immigration to France are gonna be indicative of a future problem in this country. After all native French (or Français de souche as some media has chose to call them) are still the majority in small towns and in the country's Atlantic coast. The ethnic minorities (Arabs/Berbers, Blacks or Asians) are only a great percentage of the population in the bigger cities like Paris or Marseille, thanks to the incidence of native flight.



Don't be mistaken, the problem that will appear in France in the years to come its very complex to describe. It's not gonna be a fight between the native French and ethnic minorities but also between the minorities themselves, and some of these will quickly ally themselves with the native French. For example, the situation between Muslims and Jews in the French Republic is deteriorating significantly thanks to Israel's actions in the Gaza Strip. Most Muslims living in France see this as an attack on their Palestinian brothers, so they take to the streets and a lot of times physically assault Jews or their property.



In this newspaper article (in Spanish, from 'El Pais'), the writer talks about a town in France that was seen as a lab for multicultural integration. The town is shared by Jews, Muslims and Christian communities that have fled from the Middle East (predominantly Chaldean/Assyrian refugees from Iraq and Syria), and in the last few months tensions have been rising between all groups of residents due to a lot of Muslim's support for the Islamic State and a lot of the Jews' support for Israel actions in the Gaza Strip. Asylum seekers who are Christians try to steer away from this conflict, but they are clear in their hate for the IS since it has been groups like that the ones who have driven them out of their homes in the Middle East.



http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2014/10/17/actualidad/1413546989_636805.html