Trickle Down Economic theory

[tenni]

This is a political cartoon discussing the US election issues that is created by one of the Simpson animators. It uses Obama's words from a speech and his voice. It uses images of Conservative commentators. It discusses Obama's beliefs about trickle down economics.


It is on MoveOn.org

I know some have pointed out that jobs and the economy have not improved under Obama. I understand that the global economic situation is a factor and I wonder how much of a role that has played.

Your thoughts on this political pro Obama cartoon presentation of "Trickle Down Economic" theory?




http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=U9G8XREyG0Q

[darkeyes]

In 1980s UK trickle down was a fundamental part of Thatcher thinking.. it remains part of government thinking today.. it had always been a part of the thinking of those that have.. give us more and u will get more say they.. yet while some were better off, those with least as they always were continued the struggle for existence.. those with most became even more wealthy, those in the middle felt more prosperous and yet it was all on the never never.. those with nothing had even less and it was government who because of miserly pay rates for those in work who had to top up incomes (as they still do) and those without work, a shrinking jobs market ensured they remained out of work and were even more reliant on the state..the benefits of trickle down were an illusion for those it "benefited"..

..now of course the economy of the UK and elsewhere is down the toilet.. we are all in it together.. well not quite.... trickle down has slowed to a drop occasionally and we have wholesale defiance of the laws of gravity with trickle up.. well not so much trickle as gush.. as the most wealthy take what they can, greedy bakers and financiers grab their bonuses with open arms and government talks talk about it all being so disgraceful and yet imposes economic polices upon the rest from the middle classes down which ensures that the trickle remains reversed ensuring most people's ability to make ends meet is increasingly under pressure..

In good times or bad, tenni babes, the fact that the richest 1% has seen their share of the cake vastly increase and the rest of us, in the UK, US, Canada or anywhere else should tell us all we want to know about the trickle down economic theory... if Obama is re-elected I don't expect much to change... Romney on the other hand I would expect not just in the US but elsewhere for a further opening of the up flowing taps and for most to have less but a few... a very very few already over laden with wealth and power for that matter...to say to Mr Romney.. tyvm sir...

[void()]

Relying on scraps from a table, weighs heavy on a person's outlook.
Trickle down is scraps from the table. There's no way to define it
otherwise. It has been tried, tried again and proven to not work.

I expect though we'll get more of the same, instead of trying something
different, like a resource based economy, or a living wage. Heaven
forbid we learn the truth that if we lived moderately, with equity
for all, we could have enough of everything for all. Forbid us, too
from seeing technology can produce goods and some services in surplus,
eliminating tedious work that currently does not pay decently.

No, we'll get more of the same. BOHICA, BOHICA, SNAFU.

[Brian]

I think there can be situations when an economy can be starved of capital investment, in effect it needs cash to trickle down. But there can also be situations where an economy can be starved of cash at the lower and middle class levels - in effect it needs cash to bubble up. It goes both ways. But two things: 1 - You never hear the right talking about the economy "bubbling up". They ignore the current going up the other way. Suspicious. 2 - I think there is strong evidence that we are in an economy where we are starving the middle class of cash - we have killed the bubble up. If the middle class can no longer afford to send their kids to college, afford decent health care, and save a modest amount for their retirement then you have officially killed the bubble up.

We don't need more trickle down - we need more bubble up. ... In my opinion.

- Drew :paw:

[Neonaught]

The proof is in the pudding so to speak. If this theory worked then why hasn't it produced any statistical proof that it works??? The American political system is broken and I have to wonder if it's not fatally so. When Obama was elected the Senate Minority Leader McConnell appeared in public before the media and stated "We will dedicate ourselves for the next 4 years to making Obama a 1 term President. Simply incredible! Not that he would serve the country or the constitutents that he's representing, but simply a mission statement of ultrapartisanship and to hell with the nation if it gets in the way of it! I'm seriously considering emmigration. anyone care to recommend their country?

[void()]

I think there can be situations when an economy can be starved of capital investment, in effect it needs cash to trickle down. But there can also be situations where an economy can be starved of cash at the lower and middle class levels - in effect it needs cash to bubble up. It goes both ways. But two things: 1 - You never hear the right talking about the economy "bubbling up". They ignore the current going up the other way. Suspicious. 2 - I think there is strong evidence that we are in an economy where we are starving the middle class of cash - we have killed the bubble up. If the middle class can no longer afford to send their kids to college, afford decent health care, and save a modest amount for their retirement then you have officially killed the bubble up.

We don't need more trickle down - we need more bubble up. ... In my opinion.

- Drew :paw:

Drew, I honestly do not see how the lower can "bubble up" what it doesn't have.
If there isn't sufficient decent paying work, i.e. a person works three or four jobs
to simply have what one full time job offered a decade ago, you've not got the
work needed. And yes, I've met folks doing just this. Their outlook on things is
even more bleak. They don't care to spend what they work so hard to attain.

Honestly though, as long as the U.S. Dollar remains a fiat currency what
they toil for remains worthless. The central bank can just print more and
devalue all of it. Nothing backs the numbers in the banker's ledgers, they're
only numbers, until time comes to settle accounts. Then, everybody owes
everything.

Suppose I had the only dollar in the world. I loan it to you saying
I want my dollar back and another one tomorrow. So, you have to
borrow the other dollar from me, if I decide to make it. Ultimately,
it's a con game in which those using the 'money' are ensnared in
eternal debt. I could print up millions of dollars overnight. That
would devalue the two dollars you owe me until you have to
pay me two thousand to equalize and clear the debt.

Our government's recent failures in regulating this, hell being honest,
it's never been regulated really, has brought us to the brink. I may not
be all together her at times, but I can understand a simple adage.

The rich keep getting richer, the poor, poorer.

And that is the song which keeps coming round in its
same refrain. I suspect it will continue, call it what you will
but corruption and that song are the same by any name.

[darkeyes]

I think there can be situations when an economy can be starved of capital investment, in effect it needs cash to trickle down. But there can also be situations where an economy can be starved of cash at the lower and middle class levels - in effect it needs cash to bubble up. It goes both ways. But two things: 1 - You never hear the right talking about the economy "bubbling up". They ignore the current going up the other way. Suspicious. 2 - I think there is strong evidence that we are in an economy where we are starving the middle class of cash - we have killed the bubble up. If the middle class can no longer afford to send their kids to college, afford decent health care, and save a modest amount for their retirement then you have officially killed the bubble up.

We don't need more trickle down - we need more bubble up. ... In my opinion.

- Drew :paw: The 18 millions or so in this country of what is still a large working class (and that dreadful word invented and used so much by the middle class.. the underclass) and however many are in Canada, and the 60 or 70 millions in the US and millions in other countries don't want their kids to have better health, university educations, better themselves and be able to save for a prosperous retirement? We know that is increasingly the reality very much but I think this displays an arrogance and disregard that many middle class people display towards those not of their class towards those less fortunate than themselves... the middle classes may have to tighten their belts (and if I may say so not all do have to do that even now).. but at least most have belts with holes to tighten them with... and I say that as one considered a part of that class who observes every day the far less pleasant lot of the many who are far less fortunate...

The fact is far too much wealth is bubbling up as u put it, and the greatest sacrifices in real terms seem to be being made from those who are least able to afford it... trickle down has never benefited the poorest in our society, unless we consider state provided benefit, state subsidised pay, proper medical services for all and charity trickle down wealth creation...

[Brian]

@darkeyes and v_d,

I think maybe what came through was the exact opposite of what I was trying to say, and I take responsibility for that. I'm not sure I have time for a better reply because I have 2 exams in 2 days here. But what I was trying to say is that a healthy (ie prosperous) lower and middle class benefits the rich because prosperity doesn't just trickle down, it bubbles up. This notion that we need to give all the breaks to the rich so that the benefits trickle down to the rest of us is absurd and ignores the bubble up. We can give badly needed breaks to the lower and middle class and then everyone benefits, even the rich because of the bubble up. I think all the talk of trickle down, at least in this economy, at this time, is a bad idea - the breaks for the rich are not trickling down in this new economy. We need to help the poor and middle class directly and let the rich wait for the bubble up. In my opinion.

- Drew :paw:

[Annika L]

Hi Drew...I got you the first time around.


Drew, I honestly do not see how the lower can "bubble up" what it doesn't have.

Void...I think this was exactly what Drew was trying to say.

[darkeyes]

An example from just one country about the reality of trickle down and how indeed those do not have have are expected to have even less.. aaaahh the joys of all being in it together.. the wonders of modern capitalism.. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/30/roll-call-corporate-rogues-tax

[void()]

Hi Drew...I got you the first time around.

Void...I think this was exactly what Drew was trying to say.

Oh, okay. My silly noodle didn't quite catch on to the irony. It slips up like that. Serves me
right for removing the brain in order to prepare for impending zombie apocalypse. No brain,
they won't come to eat you. I'll be going around saying, "Oh Hai! Can't eat me, no brain." :)

Sorry for not seeing irony Drew. She's my mom but sometimes she's able to elude
me. Which thinking about it, is probably a good thing.

*The void() reflects upon a new handle, smiles.*

[BiDesire]

Socialism is what Obama is preaching. It’s never worked and it will never work. It’s in peoples DNA to be free. The freer they are the happier and more prosperous they will be. Obama is so full of BULL SHIT.

[tenni]

Socialism is what Obama is preaching. It’s never worked and it will never work. It’s in peoples DNA to be free. The freer they are the happier and more prosperous they will be. Obama is so full of BULL SHIT.

It is a challenge when I read such statements as the above. It shows how wide perceptions and understanding seems to be. First, using the term socialism and not linking it to the thread topic of Trickle Down theory sorry but makes your words look like a ramble. I get the impression that you are using words as short cuts and the people that you generally discuss things with agree with these short cuts.

Obama is a US president. He is not a preacher. The video states his view that trickle down theory has not ever worked to improve the economy. Perhaps you might indicate which US President that used the trickle down theory made the US economy work? Most people are not free under such theories. Most lose their job or get inadequate pay increases all while their taxes increase and services reduced. If money is trickled down under this theory why has the economy collapsed after the President prior to Obama who used trickle down approach? The trickle down theory did not work the video states under other regimes who used it.

[darkeyes]

It is a challenge when I read such statements as the above. It shows how wide perceptions and understanding seems to be. First, using the term socialism and not linking it to the thread topic of Trickle Down theory sorry but makes your words look like a ramble. I get the impression that you are using words as short cuts and the people that you generally discuss things with agree with these short cuts.


Not a ramble... a rant by one who knows little or nothing about what socialism is.. the kind stuff right wing politicians and media enjoy smearing others with when they wish to scare and discredit... Obama is a socialist much in the Tony Blair mould.. which is no kind of socialist at all.. but why ruin a good smear? I do enjoy the hysteria of the politically brain dead...

[void()]

Ja, Obama ist ein guter sozalistcher Arbeiter fur die Menschen in den groben Buros.
Heil mein Führer!




Apologies for satire and sarcasm.

I have seen our current POTUS meet our fallen soldiers upon their return. Watched him help carry their caskets off the plane and load them into the shuttle vehicle. Looked him in the eye as he saluted those fallen brethren, noted his reverence, his respect and honor for brothers in arms.

I also saw him on television admit that he and his team fumbled on a situation where American diplomats were lost. He took full responsibility, and demanded accountability as The Commander in Chief, as a President, it was his screw up and he was trying to find out how he screwed up to apologize and make right.

To me, that is what a President should be, and should do. He has my respect as a man, as a gentleman and fellow human being. He is doing his job as best as able. Sorry, I do not see him wearing the 'cloth' of any real agenda. He keeps telling folks he's open to ideas to help solve problems, no matter where the ideas come from. Ultimately, he needs to decide and steer the ship, he does his best.

I am not trying to make him out a saint by any means. We all are faulty to varying degrees, and I'm sure Obama like me has more than enough of his own faults, than to accept being called something he's not. Even if we do go a socialistic route, maybe a pinch of it is what we need? Maybe we need iron clad protectionism seen back in the thirties? Maybe we need to eliminate money from politics? The point being we got to do something to get our Dream back, what we've been doing doesn't work, how about something new?

And that was what was said in the video. You got ideas? I'm sure the boss, Obama, wants to hear them. Go write him, let him know. I write him from time to time, often I get a form reply via email. Still, he does read my email, or is made keenly aware of it by his aides. He listens to us, the citizens, his people, something else a President should do.

[gladius]

Ja, Obama ist ein guter sozalistcher Arbeiter fur die Menschen in den groben Buros.
Heil mein Führer!




Apologies for satire and sarcasm.

I have seen our current POTUS meet our fallen soldiers upon their return. Watched him help carry their caskets off the plane and load them into the shuttle vehicle. Looked him in the eye as he saluted those fallen brethren, noted his reverence, his respect and honor for brothers in arms.

I also saw him on television admit that he and his team fumbled on a situation where American diplomats were lost. He took full responsibility, and demanded accountability as The Commander in Chief, as a President, it was his screw up and he was trying to find out how he screwed up to apologize and make right.

To me, that is what a President should be, and should do. He has my respect as a man, as a gentleman and fellow human being. He is doing his job as best as able. Sorry, I do not see him wearing the 'cloth' of any real agenda. He keeps telling folks he's open to ideas to help solve problems, no matter where the ideas come from. Ultimately, he needs to decide and steer the ship, he does his best.

I am not trying to make him out a saint by any means. We all are faulty to varying degrees, and I'm sure Obama like me has more than enough of his own faults, than to accept being called something he's not. Even if we do go a socialistic route, maybe a pinch of it is what we need? Maybe we need iron clad protectionism seen back in the thirties? Maybe we need to eliminate money from politics? The point being we got to do something to get our Dream back, what we've been doing doesn't work, how about something new?

And that was what was said in the video. You got ideas? I'm sure the boss, Obama, wants to hear them. Go write him, let him know. I write him from time to time, often I get a form reply via email. Still, he does read my email, or is made keenly aware of it by his aides. He listens to us, the citizens, his people, something else a President should do.

Exactly what man are you talking about?

[void()]

Exactly what man are you talking about?

The current President of the United States of America. I think he is at least doing the job of President as best as he can, and he seems to me to be honorable and respectable. May not agree with all he proposes or does, but can still respect him as person doing a thankless job.

[Something Else]

Ironically, there was a recent NY Times article discussing the Trickle Down Economic theory.

Well sorta...

It was actually a report (http://graphics8.nytimes.com/news/business/0915taxesandeconomy.pdf) [conducted by the Congressional Research Service] that concluded Top Tax Rates actually does NOT do what it is promoted to do.

And invariably that fact-finding endeavor was met with dismissal from Senate Republican members (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/02/business/questions-raised-on-withdrawal-of-congressional-research-services-report-on-tax-rates.html).

As Rachel Maddow succinctly articulated, "Don't like the data? Get rid of the data. (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/11/03/maddow-on-republicans-burying-tax-report-dont-like-the-data-get-rid-of-the-data/)"

Interesting times we're in...