The Queer Vote

[Annika L]

Ok, despite the thread's name, I welcome everyone to vote here.

Hopefully there's a choice for everyone.

Below, feel free to post your reasons, hold a debate, stand on a soapbox, divert into quantum mechanics, go off on another tangent, post erotic fiction, post erotic fact, go into a tizzy, or discuss penis size (particularly if it affects your choice of candidate). Just be civil.

[Jobelorocks]

I am eligible to vote and I am voting, but not for Obama or Romney. There are several candidates. Here is a link to a good test to see which candidate you agree with most on key issues http://2012election.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=004491 . As it turns out I really don't match up too well with anyone, so I will have to think some more before I make my final decision.

It is between Johnson, Stein, and Goode. The problem is that all three believe differently than I do on some core issues. They are the closest matches for me though.

[DuckiesDarling]

I'm eligible to vote and I will be casting my vote for Obama for a variety of reasons that I have laid out over and over in another thread. Btw thanks for the new poll to get rid of that other one.

[Long Duck Dong]

I am not in the us, but I would vote for obama...... the final straw for me, was reading that romney is wanting to pluck big birds funding ...lol...

we have the same thing here, in order to save money, the government cut as many sources of funding as possible, but the government is targeting government spending, starting with wage / salary freezes and caps on departmental spending, and many of the areas where excess government spending was keeping people in jobs where they actually did nothing of any value.... mind you a couple of natural disasters did not help specially with the near recession we ended up in.....

romney going after something that have been a source of learning, entertainment and joy for a few generations of kids and adults ?......is there anything that he holds sacred other than his over seas bank accounts ?

[12voltman59]

I really do wish we had more true options than just the two we are presented with----I do have to say---my vote for Obama is not so much for Obama as it for the Democratic Party and my voting for them is not so much because I think they are so great and are miracle workers--but because at least the crap they do is less vile than the sheer stupidity of the modern version of the Republican Party that does things like engages in Voter Suppression, wants to set women back to a state that is probably more like 1812 than 2012, are homophobic, xenophobic and a whole other set of "cultural war" reasons.

The other thing with the Republican Party---their appeal is largely being only towards a literally dying demographic cohort since their core constituency is a demographic that grows smaller with each passing year---namely older, wealthy white male, protestant Americans, and those who live primarily in the southern states, pockets of mid-west states and sections of inter-mountain western states--but they are becoming less and less--a viable national party.

I really do wish that the Republican Party would not be so far crazy right as they are now and become a bit more moderate and reasonable--but since we are not likely to have a true multiparty system in the US in my lifetime, it really is bad for democracy if the Republicans were to become a minority, fringe party and the Dems would once again become too dominant because that leads to excesses and such going the "other way."

I really do believe that no one side has all the answers to the things that trouble us, that no one side has a lock and key to the gates of "THE TRUTH" and only one side is the defender of all that is RIGHT AND TRUE and that from coming at things from at least two sides----in an honest attempt to fix things--- is the best way that we can come to the best workable consensus deals to GET THINGS DONE!!!

That we have such polarization in our politics now---with both sides seeming to refuse to work with "the enemy"--that is keeping us from getting things done and that is why as I have said in the past, a bit pessimistic about America's future prospects.

Not long ago---I watched yet another replay of the wonderful Ken Burns' documentary series "The Civil War"----the late historian Shelby Foote, whose work on the Civil War served as the basis of what Burns featured in the series said something very profound about the real cause of that great war and he said that it was not really the matter of slavery and related issues per se but it was a "failure of those in power to be able to reach a consensus" on how to deal with the issue.

It is a very scary prospect that those who serve in our stead are so locked into their respective positions on everything that they can do nothing that really poses a very real threat to the future of this country.

[12voltman59]

LDD: It has long been the goal of those on the right to "kill" public broadcasting almost since the moment it began, along with their desire to get rid of any vestiges of Franklin Delano Roosevelt's "New Deal" from the '30s and '40s and Lyndon Bird Johnson's "The Great Society" from the 60s. It has also long been a goal of the cultural warriors of the right to undo the Roe vs Wade decision that gave women the right to have abortions----some of the most extreme are even wanting to overturn cases like Griswold vs. Connecticut that gave people access to contraceptives and probably Mapp vs. Ohio as well, the case that basically opened the door to access "pornography."

Mitt Romney as vowed that in his Dept of Justice---a high and perhaps even top priority---will be to take down as much of the porn industry as possible.

When it comes to Mitt and what he says he will cut funding for---not only does he vow to zero out funding for PBS, but for National Public Radio as well, the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and both the National Endowment for the Arts and the National Endowment for the Humanities.

Now--we of course have budget "problems" but the total amount of all of these entities combined that they get from the national treasury---is something like .012 percent of the total federal budget. Eliminating them would be like knocking off a few ticks off a dog totally infested with them---meaning it won't make one blip of difference in the budget and help to solve our budget situations.

In regards to his tax plan and what deductions he plans to do away with---Romney won't disclose what tax deductions he will get rid of---but many economists are suggesting that chief among those deductions he will do away with will be the deduction for making charitable contributions----and if that does take place--then the incentive for people to make such contributions will go away other than a person's simple desire to make such contributions. This would be a double whammy at the same time on cutting arts and public broadcasting funding, hitting it at both the private and public ends. It would also hit other sorts of agencies that have taken on an increasing load of "social services" work thanks to many such agencies going away entirely in the past few decades or at least cut sharply. George Bush basically pushed for transferring much of the social safety net to the "private sector" instead of the public one.

When it comes to the "good" that funding things like the arts brings economically----as I recall the figure----there was a milestone economic study done a decade or so regarding the benefits that such funding brings. That study found that "taxpayer" money coming from those endowments allow either directly or indirectly via state arts agencies, to support the arts in places all over the country and for each single "taxpayer" dollar spent on the arts--generates something like $40 of private economic activity.

Now---in places like Los Angeles, New York, Chicago and even smaller places like Cincinnati where the local symphony owns some of the biggest venues to bring in popular music acts and such----which brings them big bucks each year to fund the symphony, opera and ballet companies---there will be plenty of the "high arts" still available--but in places from from even mid-sized cities in America that put on small festivals and such that honor local talent and such---the odds are that those sorts of things will go away and that would be to my mind--a tragedy of sorts since such things do bring some economic good to such places and it helps to preserve, protect and encourage our cultural and artistic heritage. It also does help to "enrich our lives" and to me--if we don't fund "the high arts" as we have come to do---I don't care if we somehow get more jobs----we will be poorer in other ways.

God knows--if we leave up "culture" to the mass market media companies--our cultural legacy won't be things like jazz, bluegrass, the blues, jazz or old time rock and roll---it will be lowest common denominator crap like "Watching the Kardashians" "The Jersey Shore" or "The Real Wives of _______"

I almost think that to gut the arts and culture is part of an overall plan to really make America the land of "Dumb and Dumberer!"

Actually---I am not voting now---but am going downtown to my local Board of Elections next week to cast my votes thanks to early voting here in Ohio and I am going to vote for Obama and pretty much most of those running as Democrats-I am surely voting to re-elect Sherrod Brown---the little dweb that is running against him for US Senate----Josh Mandel---has like zero qualifications to hold that office---he is under investigation for hiring a bunch of his buddies to fill top end state jobs without qualifications at all--paying them like 50 percent more for those positions than have prior administrations, both Democratic and Republican and he has run a campaign that both liberal and CONSERVATIVE media outlets have said ranks as one of the most dishonest in the history of Senatorial campaigns!!

[Long Duck Dong]

12 volt, the more I read about romney, the more I question what he has the issues with...... but it reminds me of a movie I saw a few years about about how religion had become the new * police * and ownership / possession of art, music, cultural items, were illegal and the items destroyed.....

romney needs to stop trying to turn america into the romney / mormon country of no culture, no life and no rights... and look at how to help continue getting america back to being a country that so many americans are proud to call home......and that means that everybody is looked after, health, job and housing wise, regardless of sexuality, age, culture or religion without turning the USA into a imitation of what the USSR was like....

but its like they say, you do not have to take away a persons right of freedom of speech and expression, you just need to remove the platforms they use.....IE the PBS, NPR and all of the other outfits that share a simple message that we can all live together and enjoy the same things regardless of who we are......

[falcondfw]

I will vote for Romney. He is not my favorite candidate, but my favorite did not win the Republican primary. I have 3 kids (maybe 4). I WILL NOT burden them with our expenses. Obama has already raised the deficit more than 43 other Presidents COMBINED. When does it stop? Bush raised the deficit a lot, but nowhere near Obama. In fact, Obama actually called Bush unpatriotic for raising the debt so much. So if Bush is unpatriotic for raising the debt so much in 8 years, what does that make Obama for raising it so much more in 4 years? Simple logic. And those who would vote for Obama are not looking at the facts or examining things logically. Simple math. For example. If we created fewer jobs this month than last, how does the unemployment rate go down almost 1/2 of a percent?

[DuckiesDarling]

For example. If we created fewer jobs this month than last, how does the unemployment rate go down almost 1/2 of a percent?

Easy, Falcon, the unemployment rate is based on the amount of people who are eligible to claim benefits, many people have exhausted benefits but are no less unemployed.. they just no longer count on the rate as they are not recieving money. I also love the fact that Republicans are closing their eyes to the benefits that they want to take away from everyone or stop people from getting then claim we don't see the facts. I think we see them a lot more clearly than you do.

[darkeyes]

God falcon what kind of maths did they teach u at school.. fewer jobs created doesn't mean none... so not only is ur Maths faulty but so was the English they taughtcha..:eek2:.

Neways have sat thinking bout this.. not American so cant vote... but if I was I would cos its too dangerous not to. It wouldn't exactly be a ringing endorsement of Obama but it would have to go his way cos it's far too dangerous either not to vote, or vote for anyone other than him.. as an individual Im not desperately afraid of Romney as Pres although his poltics are enough to turn my stomache.. I am however rather more afraid of the dickheads who he will owe favours to and end up running the US... the bugger is in thrall to some ver nasty unpleasant peeps who hate our kind (the lgbt).. hate my kind(women).. have contempt for and hate the poor and underprivileged, will return the US to n even more free and unfettereded and selfish form of capitalism and turn the US into an even more unfair and unfree place than it is now, hate health care for all, are xenophobic, racist, Islamophobic, warmongering American supremacists and dangerous as the world is, a Romney Presidency would make it even more dangerous. I could argue ad infinitum why people should vote for Obama, and also why they shouldn't... but about Romney and his masters? I could take forever or I could just say a vote for him is a vote for the greed and selfishness of a very few.

[tenni]

Just a question or two.

So, falcon
Are you stating that the debt (total money owing built up over several presidents' eras) increased during Obama or the deficit?(annual negative tax imbalance)
................
My understanding has been that Bush increased the "debt" by not raising taxes during two invasions. There was a negative government tax income annual during that era due to not raising taxes or cutting expenses to create a balanced budget for eight years. He was the first US president to have a war and not increase taxes. I recall that he actually reduced taxes for the upper income people. I recall statements that the interest owing on the debt seemed to be on a path that in the not too distant future all of the tax collected would be needed just to pay the interest on the accumulated debt.

Now, the debt increase over eight years and interest charged on the debt causes an every increasing burden on the taxpayer. The next president and government needed to deal with this debt. Using terms like "deficit" means an annual negative tax income. The US government spent more that year than it brought in with taxes. That needs to be added on to the debt carried over from the past. That includes the increased debt from the Bush eight year regime. Bush seems to be blamed for the increased debt from his era. The government is more than the president and includes the Senate & Congress bills. The same occurs with Obama.

During the Bush era, the Congress and Senate were the same political party as the US president? During the Obama era, the Congress and Senate ended up not being the same political party as the US president. So, who actually increased the annual deficit? Who holds that responsibility?

I am asking because I do not understand your system as far as statements that falcon made. (not being a smart arse)

[fredtyg]

You should always include more than just two choices thus I won't be voting in your poll. I'll be voting for Gary Johnson (http://www.garyjohnson2012.com). He's the successful past two- term Governor of New Mexico and is both fiscally conservative and socially tolerant.

[fredtyg]

Some of you may want to take the quiz on the isidewith site (http://www.isidewith.com/) to see which presidential candidate most shares your views. If you check the state results, you can see where your state really stands in regards candidates vs. issues.

[Annika L]

Ah, well, y'know...8 choices max in a poll on this site...and Gary Johnson won't be winning this election, so with all due respect to your vote, I'm not as interested in what portion of people will be voting for him as I was in the other choices I posted. In hindsight, if I'd have thought of it, I could have made choice #5 include "or would not vote for Obama or Romney". Live and learn.

[Annika L]

Obama has already raised the deficit more than 43 other Presidents COMBINED.

Yeah, it was the national debt Romney said Obama had raised. Do you believe this because Romney said it? He said quite a number of false things.

Politifact gives this accusation a "mostly false" rating: http://www.politifact.com/new-jersey/statements/2012/may/04/chain-email/obama-has-added-more-national-debt-previous-43-pre/

CBS News says "the Debt rose $4.899 trillion during the two terms of the Bush presidency. It has now gone up $4.939 trillion since President Obama took office." (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57400369-503544/national-debt-has-increased-more-under-obama-than-under-bush/) Not exactly the same numbers, but that doesn't sound like "more than all 43 previous presidents combined."

[darkeyes]

Yeah, it was the national debt Romney said Obama had raised. Do you believe this because Romney said it? He said quite a number of false things.

Politifact gives this accusation a "mostly false" rating: http://www.politifact.com/new-jersey/statements/2012/may/04/chain-email/obama-has-added-more-national-debt-previous-43-pre/

CBS News says "the Debt rose $4.899 trillion during the two terms of the Bush presidency. It has now gone up $4.939 trillion since President Obama took office." (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57400369-503544/national-debt-has-increased-more-under-obama-than-under-bush/) Not exactly the same numbers, but that doesn't sound like "more than all 43 previous presidents combined."
The UK, which currently essentially is implementing the kind of shit economic and social policies Republicans would love, see's imports rocket, exports collapse, industries shrivel and die, unemployment and especially youth and female unemployment rocket, even less job security, a return to full recession, living standards fall sharply, poverty increase, homelessness go through the roof and more beggars on our streets, savings and pensions shrink, fuel poverty go sky high, environmental and conservation concerns disappear, the rich become even richer, the banks out of control, the health service being butchered, public services disappear and the national debt and government borrowing go through the roof... and guess what? The bastards tell us we haven't even scratched the surface yet.. there is far far worse to come... that, boys and girls, is what u have coming ur way if u vote for Romney and the Republicans...

[meteast chick]

I am just as much a hair raising Liberal as much as I am an out and proud lesbian. I voted for Obama and thankfully won 4 years ago and my wife and I will be voting for him again next month. It seems anyone can get on a stage, send out a mass of postal smut, and spew hatred and lies on the television to get the American people to believe anything. Regardless of the politicking, the truth is out there, and the truth is that Romney's original words were the true ones, not the flip flopping he did at the debates. His Mormon ass doesn't like my lesbian one. I'm sure if he could he would undo the civil union I had performed in my state this year and rebill the money my mother received from state aid when I was a child when she was going through a divorce, working 2 jobs, going to school and not receiving a dime in child support from my deadbeat father, and trying to raise 3 children. When she was able to, she actually returned the remainder of food stamps she had and said thank you. How horrible she was to rely on the government when she needed it. If it was up to Romney she'd never had received that so desperately needed help. I can't say that I've never received federal subsidies when I was out of work with 2 infants. How many of us can say we are NOT or never have been in the 47%? As far as the federal budget goes, get the true facts and not the propaganda known as Obama 2016. Get the facts and then it will be clear who the true and right candidate is. I'm all about Team Obama/Biden!!!

[DuckiesDarling]

http://youtu.be/hH54umRbQzU

[The Young Pretender]

It's fascinating to see an almost even split between Romney and Obama. I'd love to see a demographic breakdown, as I'm curious as to whether or not the Romney voters feature a higher quantity of bisexuals in heterosexual marriages.

I woke up this morning to see one of my uncle's facebook posts with a political bent (his posting habits are more of a narcissistic teenager's than a 40+ year old...). However, this one made some fair points. In particular, it restated the common knowledge about Republican disdain for LGBT civil rights. I wonder how LGBT individuals could vote for Republicans who would obstruct marriage, adoption, and the tax benefits derived from the former.

That said, I can't vote for either party. Both are too focused on holding power for 2 more years bickering over the peripheral issues while global political, military, and financial power shifts to the Orient and America careens (seemingly) inexorably to financial doomsday.

[DuckiesDarling]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A051B-uPopM&feature=youtu.be

[void()]

I really do wish we had more true options than just the two we are presented with ---

Why not vote for Jill Stein or Rocky Anderson?

Jill Stein reminds me of a Green Party F.D.R, Rocky Anderson seems to be the Justice party's Romney. AFAIK, Jill Stein is on the ballot in many states, working on getting the last two. Rocky Anderson seems to be on most ballots as well. You could vote Independent and have more choice.

Democracy (http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2012/10/4/expanding_the_debate_watch_democracy_nows_full_thr ee_hour_special) Now has debate coverage if you need to some familiarity with these candidates.

These two were not allowed into the MSM debate, doesn't mean they aren't viable choices. You think government or MSM is going to help U.S. Citezens be informed? Look at public education and try saying they will with a straight face. Look at no coverage of the Iraq, or Afghanistan wars and try it. You need to look for yourself.

Annika, excuse me for not adding to the poll. I wouldn't vote for either of MSM's candidates. Might vote for an Independent candidate. You didn't list those.

[mariersa]

[Simple math. For example. If we created fewer jobs this month than last, how does the unemployment rate go down almost 1/2 of a percent?[/QUOTE]
Falcon seems as if you don't stand a chance! apparently contributors here have a better formula for figuring it out i'm still confused you start with xxxx add 366 subtract 144 and you end up with xxxy hmmm. anyway lots of 'em either became self employed, were ill, vacation , experienced bad weather hahaha what a formula, no wonder they're confused.

www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm

[sodacan3]

I think that if Mitt wins, it is an indictment of the educational system in this country. If one looks at history and the multiple times the Republicans have messed up this country, then how could one vote for them. From the depression to the Wall Street Meltdown, their hand has been steering us towards rocky waters. And who can possibly believe in the Trickle Down Theory. How can people blame Obama for everything? How about the hard right members of the Congress and their role in stalling everything.

I want to be on the public relations and political strategy committee for Obama. They need new slogans: "Keep your Mitts off our Country!" "If the Mitt fits, you can't elect!"

[bityme]

I put myself down for a Romney vote. Overall, I'd be happier with Gary Johnson, but, unfortunately, I don't think he has a chance. So my selection is based on what I think would be best for the country. Given a choice between social issues and the economy, I have to go with getting the economy back on track. While Obama might have a greater following on social issues, I perceive it to be largely due to his having gone overboard on give-away programs (entitlements other than Social Security and Medicare).

In coming to my decision, I had to look at a number of different factors. On the social front, Obama did nothing other than the repeal of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" and that was passed as a bipartisan measure during his 3rd year. Yes, there is Obamacare, passed during the first two years while he still had Democratic majorities in both the House and the Senate. During that period, he could have pushed through the majority of the things he is saying he will do if re-elected. The problem is he no longer has that double majority in Congress. I believe his claimed support of same-sex marriage is just another hollow promise.

Obama claims not to be able do stop raids on Medical Marijuana dispensaries in several states because he has to follow the law, but, by Executive Order, he could remove marijuana from Schedule 1 drugs which would open free prescription use and preclude federal prosecution. I view his taking such action as extremely unlikely. Pharmaceutical companies have spent $241,431,044 on lobbying during this election cycle and Obama has collected $902,985 in campaign contributions from them through September 3rd of this year.

Seeking the hispanic vote, he illegally exempts 800,000 illegal alien students from deportation by refusing to enforce the laws we have and siding with the president of Mexico he sues one of our states that wants immigration laws enforced. He increases the National Forest lands along our border with Mexico, limiting Border Patrol access to illegals crossing the border. He ships arms to the Mexican cartels that are used to kill Border Patrol agents as they attempt to enforce our borders and then prosecutes Border Patrol agents who, when shot at, return fire killing illegals crossing the border.

How about the economy? I don't believe the politician themselves, the biased broadcasters, or the so-called fact-checkers when it comes to their manipulation og accounting data. Every time I check them, I find they have selectively favored one side or the other in presentation of their analysis. Obama wants to blame everything on Bush, but won't admit that Bush started out with an 11-month recession from Clinton's policies. My view is that every president has to deal with the nation's problems during their term of office. The test is whether or not they handled the problems properly. Here is my own analysis:

According to the Treasury Department, as of January 20, 2001, the national debt was $5.728 trillion. By January 20, 2009, the national debt was $10.629 trillion. So, under the Bush administration, over 8 years, the national debt increased by $4.901 trillion.

For Fiscal Year 2012, which ended October 4, 2012, the figure is $16.162 trillion. That means, under Obama presidency, in less than 4 years, the national debt has increased $5.533 trillion.

For the first time in our nation's history, the national debt now exceeds 100% of our Gross Domestic Product (GDP). It hit a high of 74.1% under Bush. Put another way, as of December 31, 2011 it had reached 183% of the average per capita income in the U.S. Bush had a high of 130% and Clinton had a high of 112%.

According to the U.S. Office of Management and Budget (Obama’s administration), the U.S. deficits are calculated as follows::

Bush Deficits
2001-2008 = $2,262,087.00

Obama Deficits
2009-2012 = $5,332,720.00
2013-2016 est. = $2,827,678.00

So we have a president who, in his first term, almost doubles the deficit of two terms of the previous administration. On top of that, he projects that if re-elected the budget deficit will continue to climb to over 3 times that of the previous president. Despite billions spent on bailouts, homes are still being foreclosed on, banks are still failing, and wages are down. The record is pretty clear. Obama is not just "incomplete" as he admits, he's incompetent.

This is the same president that has failed to get Congress to pass a budget at any time during his term in office. Whether he had a Democratic majority in Congress, or not, Congress, on a bipartisan basis, has rejected every proposed budget he has submitted to them. He has openly stated that he can't change Congress from the inside. He still has not learned the art of leadership required to negotiate or obtain a consensus. The chance of him being a successful leader during a second term are not very promising.

Do I think Romney can fulfill all of his campaign promises or projections? Hell, NO! I am, however, convinced that Romney has a much better business sense than either Obama or his cadre of advisers. The only way to fix this economy is to put American business back on a solid path of continuous growth.

Pappy

[DuckiesDarling]

Sorry, Pappy, I fully disagree with your take that Romney as a businessman would be better for the country than Obama. I think if you actually look at Romney's so called tax cut plan you will find many of the things he claims are impossible. Of course the deficit went up under Obama, after all he had to try and get us out of a war without losing more lives in the balance. Besides the last time we had a businessman in office to "fix" the country, it was George Bush... oh yeah the problems started with his snowball and Obama tried for two years to push it uphill then the scare tactics started at the Democratic advantage in both House and Senate was lost and then it became just like Sisyphus.

I don't believe his support for LGBT rights is hollow, after all he also made it plain that partners of LGBT people can not be denied access to them in the hospital despite the lack of a marriage license. Ryan wants to gut Medicare and Social Security, Romney disdains 47% of the American population as worthless. Sorry to those that actually had to get some help in times of need we know damned well we aren't worthless, we just needed a bit of help.

If Romney is elected you'll see an even more widespread gap open between the "rich" and the "poor". Romney's plan would gut the small business which would cripple the middle class job market. Obama's plan would strengthen the middle class job market and in effect get Americans back to work. And, really Johnson?? He wants to get rid of the IRS.. yeah we can all dream about it, but in the end we know that's a fool's dream. Two things in life are certain, Death and Taxes so the IRS or another replacement tax collection agency will always be around.

http://factcheck.org/2012/08/romneys-impossible-tax-promise/

http://factcheck.org/2012/10/dubious-denver-debate-declarations/

http://factcheck.org/2012/10/romneys-clean-energy-whoppers/

http://factcheck.org/2012/02/dueling-debt-deceptions/



9094

[fredtyg]

I put myself down for a Romney vote. Overall, I'd be happier with Gary Johnson, but, unfortunately, I don't think he has a chance.

Something to consider, bityme: The President isn't elected by popular vote. He's elected by the Electoral College. In that regard, your vote in California for Romney (as is my vote for Johnson, in a way) is actually a wasted vote.

Obama is all but certain to win California without even campaigning here. He'll probably win by a fairly large margin. Once he gets 51% of the vote, he wins all the state's electoral votes. Your vote for Romney won't give Romney any electoral votes. That gives you- and others in states considered "safe" for one candidate or the other- the perfect excuse to vote your REAL choice.

The same could actually be said for Obama voters in California. Once he gets 51% of the vote, any votes cast for him beyond those 51% are essentially wasted. He gets the same number of electoral votes whether he gets 51% or 99% of the vote. There are Obama supporters that might really prefer Green Party candidate Jill Stein or even Gary Johnson. This is the perfect opportunity for them to cast a vote for their real choice and not have to worry about the outcome.

I'd suggest, if you're a California Obama supporter that would rather vote for someone else, you could get everyone you know to vote for Stein or Johnson and Obama would still win the state and its electoral votes.

What's to lose? This is the perfect time to vote your real choice and help change our electoral system from a 2 party duopoly to one where at least some attention is paid to other candidates.

[tenni]

"For the first time in our nation's history, the national debt now exceeds 100% of our Gross Domestic Product (GDP)."

Pappy
I heard about this at least five years ago as a first step prediction about the US economy. If you have a debt, you must realize that you are paying interest on that debt. Each successive year where you continue to have a deficit and not a surplus, your country is unable to reduce the debt. The interest is compounded annually and this adds to the increasing debt.

The next horror for you is when your interest on your national debt equals the GDP or it may be when the interest on the debt equals or is greater than taxes collected. I don't recall how far off that is but it is not long. The interest on the debt is growing. Tax cuts are not the solution to such an economy or so I've been told. Tax increases and reduced services should be in the wing. What politician is going to state that though? Who is stating that one of the largest expenses, the military needs to be drastically reduced? No one.

[IanBorthwick]

The Republican party doesn't think you should elect Romney. Don't believe me? Watch and learn.....



https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ByzxFQSlyDA#!

And he's indecisive and a flip flopper. Whatever gets him, or he THINKS gets him traction, he'll chase to get you to hire him! That's consistent with someone lying to get hired by a new company!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQwrB1vu74c&feature=related

Are you voting for Romney? Really? Or are you voting AGAINST the black guy because of the rhetoric, your bigoted views, your belief that somehow the President creates legislature, that you've been told the fiction that Obama caused the debt and MAGICALLY interest stops accruing from Bush and Reagn and Bush Jrs Supply Side Fairy Tale?

9095


I know talking politics here, especially fact driven and truth oriented politics, puts me in the minority, but it has to be said. Your choices come down to Obama and his attempts to fix what Bush made go horribly wrong, or Romney and his record of lies, obfuscation, cronyism, and his latest...the good old Gish Gallup.

[IanBorthwick]

And let me leave you with THIS gem, to all your Right Wing, Bisexuals....excuse this IF you can!

If you're not STRAIGHT, you're shit outta luck with expecting protection of YOUR rights!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H9FKfECKDk&feature=related

[wanderingrichard]

In WA state we will only be able to vote X or Y. Why? Becuase the Repugnicans and the Democraps have both convoluted and perverted the state electoral system into a 2 party only system.

Personally, being modeerate and mostly independent, I'd vote for the Greens, if i could. Aint gonna happen, wont be on the ballot.

Please, explain to me how we can forcibly and enthusiastically send "Monitors" funded by our Dept. of State ,[btw, never trust these fucks either] into other countries to ensure Free and Fair Elections, when we cant even do it inside our own?

[darkeyes]

In WA state we will only be able to vote X or Y. Why? Becuase the Repugnicans and the Democraps have both convoluted and perverted the state electoral system into a 2 party only system.

Personally, being modeerate and mostly independent, I'd vote for the Greens, if i could. Aint gonna happen, wont be on the ballot.

Please, explain to me how we can forcibly and enthusiastically send "Monitors" funded by our Dept. of State ,[btw, never trust these fucks either] into other countries to ensure Free and Fair Elections, when we cant even do it inside our own?
woooo.. u mean ur not the fairest, most free, most democratic country on earth? wow.. am shocked.. we long ago knew we weren't and that u weren't... nice to know some realisation is dawning across the pond..

[wanderingrichard]

woooo.. u mean ur not the fairest, most free, most democratic country on earth? wow.. am shocked.. we long ago knew we weren't and that u weren't... nice to know some realisation is dawning across the pond..

Oh,i've known for longer than you;ve been born how truly two faced BOTH countries are. Careful what nests you kick at, please.

[darkeyes]

Oh,i've known for longer than you;ve been born how truly two faced BOTH countries are. Careful what nests you kick at, please.*laffs* :kiss:

[DuckiesDarling]

For those in the US.. something interesting.

http://www.barackobama.com/local Just plug in your zipcode and see how his presidency has helped your location.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

I told a guy the other day that I wanted to write in Maxine for President, Jeff Dunham's Peanut for VP. Jose' Jalapino~ for Chief of Defence, and Walter for Ambassadore of Congeniality...
Funny, he wasnt amused with my candor....snicker.
Bad Cat

[fredtyg]

In WA state we will only be able to vote X or Y. Why? Becuase the Repugnicans and the Democraps have both convoluted and perverted the state electoral system into a 2 party only system.


If that were that case in California, this is one Presidential election I simply wouldn't vote in. Two reasons: I wouldn't vote for either Romney or Obama and I wouldn't stand for having my choices limited to just those two.

[void()]

You're incorrect richard, according to this (http://www.jillstein.org/ballot).

(http://www.jillstein.org/ballot)

[IanBorthwick]

For those in the US.. something interesting.

http://www.barackobama.com/local Just plug in your zipcode and see how his presidency has helped your location.


I just did this and I am STAGGERED by how much he did just for my area in Ca! I mean, I knew he'd done a lot but the numbers, when put on a closer to personal account, boggles the mind!

[fredtyg]

I just did this and I am STAGGERED by how much he did just for my area in Ca! I mean, I knew he'd done a lot but the numbers, when put on a closer to personal account, boggles the mind!

Are you two with the Obama campaign? You know this is crap, don't you, put out by their campaign and fudging numbers to make themselves look good?

They even flat out lie. For instance, on Jobs it says, "Thirty straight months of private sector job growth—more than 4.6 million jobs added—including the first year-over-year gains in manufacturing jobs since 1997.". That's simply not true.

And all the rest of the money he supposedly either sent to the area or saved people is all money that has to be paid back some day. Hard to believe you'd fall for that. Maybe ducky, since he doesn't live in the U.S., but Ian is either extremely naive or deliberately spreading Obama crap around.

[DuckiesDarling]

Are you two with the Obama campaign? You know this is crap, don't you, put out by their campaign and fudging numbers to make themselves look good?

They even flat out lie. For instance, on Jobs it says, "Thirty straight months of private sector job growth—more than 4.6 million jobs added—including the first year-over-year gains in manufacturing jobs since 1997.". That's simply not true.

And all the rest of the money he supposedly either sent to the area or saved people is all money that has to be paid back some day. Hard to believe you'd fall for that. Maybe ducky, since he doesn't live in the U.S., but Ian is either extremely naive or deliberately spreading Obama crap around.

First, Fred.. female, Second, US Citizen, Third, not with Obama campaign but definitely in favor of him over the used car salesman, Romney.

[Long Duck Dong]

Are you two with the Obama campaign? You know this is crap, don't you, put out by their campaign and fudging numbers to make themselves look good?

They even flat out lie. For instance, on Jobs it says, "Thirty straight months of private sector job growth—more than 4.6 million jobs added—including the first year-over-year gains in manufacturing jobs since 1997.". That's simply not true.

And all the rest of the money he supposedly either sent to the area or saved people is all money that has to be paid back some day. Hard to believe you'd fall for that. Maybe ducky, since he doesn't live in the U.S., but Ian is either extremely naive or deliberately spreading Obama crap around.

and who do you believe, fred ? ......

[darkeyes]

'Spose it's appropriate.. 'merica is wer turkeys originate innit? Just as well for Obama election day is a wee bit away...

[fredtyg]

and who do you believe, fred ? ......
As I've already written, past two-term Governor of New Mexico, Gary Johnson. The only Presidential candidate likely to be on the ballot on all 50 states beside Obama and Romney that doesn't want to bomb Iran and the only one of the three that wants a much less aggressive foreign policy. He proposed legalizing marijuana back when he was Governor and has always supported same sex marriage.

[Jobelorocks]

I think I made my final decision on Johnson as well. He doesn't match up on my beliefs perfectly, but a whole lot closer than the other candidates. Plus I refuse to vote for either Obama or Romney, just like I refused to vote for Obama or McCain, and I refused to vote for Bush or Kerry. I am not going to vote for someone I can't stand or someone I don't believe in even if it is "throwing my vote away". Heck, being a California resident (I know I live in Louisiana now, but since my husband is military they let me keep my residency) no matter who I vote for it doesn't matter really. It always goes to the Democrat, so I figure I might as well vote for someone I like.

[fredtyg]

I think I made my final decision on Johnson as well. He doesn't match up on my beliefs perfectly, but a whole lot closer than the other candidates.

That's great to hear. I'll never understand why so many people are committed to the two party system and their candidates, especially in a case like this where any differences between them are fairly insignificant.

As far as not fitting you beliefs perfectly, how many people do you know personally that have the exact same beliefs as you do? If you're like me, probably very few. I've been fit to be tied while discussing Gary Johnson with the Ron Paulians. Johnson and Paul are 95% or more in agreement on issues yet many Paulians are saying they're going to write in Paul's name (a complete waste of time since those write- ins aren't counted) or not vote at all.

I've also heard from a few that don't like Obama or Romney so won't vote at all even though they have other choices, even one that's a former successful two term Governor. Rather than not vote at all, why not waste your vote on a third party candidate? That at least serves the purpose of getting more attention for the others that have something to say on the issues.

Wouldn't it be nice, instead of having only two candidates behind the podium arguing they're the best person to intervene in middle eastern countries' affairs to have at least one candidate up there questioning whether we should be getting involved in other countries' affairs at all?

[Jobelorocks]

The problem is that Johnson agrees with me on some issues that are important to me, but he also disagrees on some issues that are important to me. I have taken a few tests and he matched up most with me but was still only at about 70%. The problem is some issues I am very conservative and some issues I am very liberal.

[fredtyg]

Keep in mind that regardless of the issues, any president- even Gary Johnson- can only do much. They aren't dictators and have to get the congress to go along with them to get anything done.

Johnson is fiscally responsible and socially tolerant as am I. However, much to my chagrin he's come out on the opposite side of some issues than mine. Global warming and genetically engineered foods being two that I found his position on rather annoying. Not game changers, just embarrassing and annoying.

[fredtyg]

Oh, and don't forget it's highly unlikely he'll win so disagreement on some issues doesn't really matter.:cutelaugh

[mariersa]

The Big Yellow Feathery phuk is a millionaire why would he need your hard earned tax payer dollars anyway.
9105
seems that the real issues are being avoided by the Incumbent

[tall tale]

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/804011/original.jpg

From Clint Eastwoods mouth, to the cover of The New Yorker magazine.

[tall tale]

Some of you may want to clear your throat and maybe throw back a few shots of whisky, but when that is done repeat these words; President Mitt Romney.

[mariersa]

The Big Yellow Feathery phuk is a millionaire why would he need your hard earned tax payer dollars anyway.
9105
seems that the real issues are being avoided by the Incumbent

hmmm that's screwed if you have to press on the pic to enlarge it!! wtf?

[IanBorthwick]

Are you two with the Obama campaign? You know this is crap, don't you, put out by their campaign and fudging numbers to make themselves look good?

They even flat out lie. For instance, on Jobs it says, "Thirty straight months of private sector job growth—more than 4.6 million jobs added—including the first year-over-year gains in manufacturing jobs since 1997.". That's simply not true.

And all the rest of the money he supposedly either sent to the area or saved people is all money that has to be paid back some day. Hard to believe you'd fall for that. Maybe ducky, since he doesn't live in the U.S., but Ian is either extremely naive or deliberately spreading Obama crap around.

Ok. I've said it before and I SAY it again. Proof or STFU. Your opinion doesn't not trump facts because you wish it so. SO when you are stupid enough to call ME naive when I was commenting on using something someone else posted but you did not take them to task for putting it in this thread, we know you're either sexist or a coward aiming for the guy you assume is softer spoken. AS Bugs Bunny said, "he don't know me vewwy well, do he?"

Your argument breaks down to the corrupt "Accusation=Guilt". I feel bad for you, but I'm obviously not going to allow you impugn me and what is fact by projecting your issues and your sides issues of "Cooking the Books" when fact checkers regularly knock you stupid.

Try again and aim for less fail.

[fredtyg]

I believe I included her in my rant, as well as you.

[tall tale]

I find it very telling that the usual cacklers here are not shilling from their roof tops. Now, if those poll numbers were flipped?

[dubguy]

I'm not from the US and cannot vote in the election, but among many reasons I would strongly support Obama is my sexuality. Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan and the GOP can't abide gays, bi's and anything except Christian heterosexuality. The GOP are not who I am. The personal and the sexual is political.

[DuckiesDarling]

You know it's amazing to me, but the numbers seem to keep climbing on this site for Romney and I begin to wonder just how much attention some are really paying to the platform. Especially on this site, where supposedly most here are in favor of equal rights and caring for our own and getting out of the wars. Yet you have the Republican party who want to stop same sex marriage, revoke DADT, turn Social Security payments into "vouchers" so that only certain things can be bought no matter seniors spent their entire lives making sure others had cash to buy what they needed and revoke the choice that women have over their own bodies. Why may I ask? Because you believe someone who told so many lies during the debate that he was pretty much credited with creating jobs only for the fact checkers??? Sorry, I care about my country and I care about the future and I believe that if Romney/Ryan are elected you can pretty much say goodbye to sites like this. Taking away certain rights is just a small step....

[Annika L]

I find it very telling that the usual cacklers here are not shilling from their roof tops. Now, if those poll numbers were flipped?

Oh, I must say I'm so very curious about who "the usual cacklers" are...whose rooftops should I be keeping an eye on (or ear out for)?

But honestly, I can't think of any cackler on this site who would be silenced by poll numbers...those who cackle generally do so regardless of evidence, argument, or even coherent cause.

[IanBorthwick]

You know it's amazing to me, but the numbers seem to keep climbing on this site for Romney and I begin to wonder just how much attention some are really paying to the platform. Especially on this site, where supposedly most here are in favor of equal rights and caring for our own and getting out of the wars. Yet you have the Republican party who want to stop same sex marriage, revoke DADT, turn Social Security payments into "vouchers" so that only certain things can be bought no matter seniors spent their entire lives making sure others had cash to buy what they needed and revoke the choice that women have over their own bodies. Why may I ask? Because you believe someone who told so many lies during the debate that he was pretty much credited with creating jobs only for the fact checkers??? Sorry, I care about my country and I care about the future and I believe that if Romney/Ryan are elected you can pretty much say goodbye to sites like this. Taking away certain rights is just a small step....

Please remember that it's entirely possible to create an account with an email address, run in, vote, go back..lather, rinse repeat. It's rather like the way they are vote tampering across the US. So it may not be all ignorance of the issues and lies. You know how often both the Right claims the Left cooks the books when in fact it's pure Projected Guilt because they employ it as a tactic.... just food for thought.

[IanBorthwick]

I believe I included her in my rant, as well as you.

As I said, once more with less fail. Mentioning DD in passing does not qualify. If you do not understand that, understand this: I do not have time to play 2nd grade games with you, nor am I likely to engage in them. Calling me Naive and then employing a tactic like that is nothing more than whining,"I know you are but what am I?"

Sit down and shut it, the adults are talking.

[darkeyes]

Please remember that it's entirely possible to create an account with an email address, run in, vote, go back..lather, rinse repeat. It's rather like the way they are vote tampering across the US. So it may not be all ignorance of the issues and lies. You know how often both the Right claims the Left cooks the books when in fact it's pure Projected Guilt because they employ it as a tactic.... just food for thought.
On some previous polls at least, we could view not how people had voted, but that they had... having never run one nor ever intending to I don't know, but is this facility no longer available to those who set polls on site? It would certainly have made interesting reading and maybe aided u in your suspicions.. I have the same suspicions, for while I believe that there are large numbers within queer America who will vote Romney, I do harbour grave doubts that they would be quite so overwhelmingly in favour of a man from a party who will deny them everything and grant them nothing.

[The Young Pretender]

On some previous polls at least, we could view not how people had voted, but that they had... having never run one nor ever intending to I don't know, but is this facility no longer available to those who set polls on site? It would certainly have made interesting reading and maybe aided u in your suspicions.. I have the same suspicions, for while I believe that there are large numbers within queer America who will vote Romney, I do harbour grave doubts that they would be quite so overwhelmingly in favour of a man from a party who will deny them everything and grant them nothing.

Unsurprisingly, I find myself agreeing with you. I agree that there are many queer Republicans (for a variety of reasons, I suppose), but this quantity here voting in favour of....well, many things we stand for is shocking.

[BiJoe696]

Thanks for the post Ian, good stuff. :yikes2:



The Republican party doesn't think you should elect Romney. Don't believe me? Watch and learn.....



https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ByzxFQSlyDA#!

And he's indecisive and a flip flopper. Whatever gets him, or he THINKS gets him traction, he'll chase to get you to hire him! That's consistent with someone lying to get hired by a new company!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQwrB1vu74c&feature=related

Are you voting for Romney? Really? Or are you voting AGAINST the black guy because of the rhetoric, your bigoted views, your belief that somehow the President creates legislature, that you've been told the fiction that Obama caused the debt and MAGICALLY interest stops accruing from Bush and Reagn and Bush Jrs Supply Side Fairy Tale?

9095


I know talking politics here, especially fact driven and truth oriented politics, puts me in the minority, but it has to be said. Your choices come down to Obama and his attempts to fix what Bush made go horribly wrong, or Romney and his record of lies, obfuscation, cronyism, and his latest...the good old Gish Gallup.

[tall tale]

Unsurprisingly, I find myself agreeing with you. I agree that there are many queer Republicans (for a variety of reasons, I suppose), but this quantity here voting in favour of....well, many things we stand for is shocking.

This is something you truly do not need to worry yourself about, now is it? One thing for sure, people will vote via their wallets/pocketbooks. It's not all about how queer one candidate is over the other.

[darkeyes]

This is something you truly do not need to worry yourself about, now is it? One thing for sure, people will vote via their wallets/pocketbooks. It's not all about how queer one candidate is over the other.
Not everyone is you are right.. but neither is everyone a turkey who votes for xmas.... vote Romney and I trust u will enjoy ur 2013 xmas dinner... on the platter ready for carving...

[tall tale]

I can't trust you, just on the fact that you don't live in the States.

[darkeyes]

I can't trust you, just on the fact that you don't live in the States.
I won't treat that as a xenophobic statement... whether u trust me or not is immaterial... but that doesn't make my statement any less valid for all that and has at the very least as much truth as your original comment... and just for info.. several of my best friends are US citizens who are resident in this country... are they not to be trusted either? One intends to vote Romney as it happens, but while I love him very much as a friend... politically he hums and I wouldn't trust him either if I were u.. but he is white and str8, lives in the UK and so who runs America doesn't quite affect him and his sexuality in quite the same way...

[tall tale]

I see you're an easy one to spin into butter.

[darkeyes]

I see you're an easy one to spin into butter.Not really.. but butter is nicern marge..:)

[DuckiesDarling]

http://youtu.be/RbpYHrfoqlA

[mariersa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCtemaHgjyA&feature=player_embedded what a jerk OBiden ; did he actually say $800 million billion! a new debt target I suppose

[IanBorthwick]

Love this insight from Deborah Sue Prater

"When Romney was assertive, aggressive, forceful, demanding and ignored the moderator during the first debate, the Gop and much of the media praised him for being a prepared, commanding force. [Despite the fact he spewed one lie after another]. When Joe Biden is assertive, aggressive, confident and prepared, all the sudden those same traits are perceived as rude and inconsiderate. Double standards from the Republicans…always double standards".

9135

And just to include MY thoughts here, I doubt you all were as insulted by Joe as we were by Mitt and Paul's Mendacity Festival. And even if you were...

So what? Once again, I defer to someone I respect more than I can say. take it away Stephen Fry!


http://youtu.be/02dXAkxbyQg

[Annika L]

On some previous polls at least, we could view not how people had voted, but that they had... having never run one nor ever intending to I don't know, but is this facility no longer available to those who set polls on site? It would certainly have made interesting reading and maybe aided u in your suspicions.. I have the same suspicions, for while I believe that there are large numbers within queer America who will vote Romney, I do harbour grave doubts that they would be quite so overwhelmingly in favour of a man from a party who will deny them everything and grant them nothing.

Hi Fran. Not entirely sure what feature you're referring to. There is still the option to display the names of people who vote in each category. In most cases I really dislike that option, and certainly don't think it appropriate for a pseudo-political poll (even though yes, it would be interesting). But I'm not aware that there has ever been a feature that let you see a list of all people who voted *without* showing what they voted for. I suppose if there was such a thing before, there might still be now and I might have been missing it all this time.

I too am always surprised by the number of queer voters who vote for non-queer-friendly candidates. But people have a variety of interests, and their sexuality contributes only one set of interests. An extremely wealthy queer person may well believe they have more to lose monetarily from a Democratic presidency than they have to lose in human rights from a Republican presidency...but I've never understood that belief...what price your own human rights?

But more to the point of the response to this poll on this site. I *believe* the vast majority of our members here are not out (I believe past polls support this)...a large percentage seem to be males looking to hook up with other males for quick illicit sex. NOT EVERYONE, I know, criminy. If you are not out, and appear to the world (aside from a partner or five) like a straight person, you probably don't feel your human rights to be in as much jeopardy as those of us who have very visible same-sex partners, and live with the daily scrutiny. In that case, I'm sure it's much easier to vote *entirely* in your other interests. Hence, I would be much more surprised by the current standing of the poll if this was a gay/lesbian site, rather than a bisexual site. In fact, it could have been a *very* interesting poll indeed to restrict the poll to US voters who identify as queer (of whatever stripe), and have the categories:

I am out, and I intend to vote for Obama
I am out, and I intend to vote for Romney
I am out, and I intend to vote for someone other than Obama or Romney
I am out, and I intend to not vote
I am NOT out and I intend to vote for Obama
I am NOT out and I intend to vote for Romney
I am NOT out and I intend to vote for someone other than Obama or Romney
I am NOT out and I intend not to vote

Hmmm...could be worth considering....

[tenni]

Annika
I too am also a bit surprised at how the poll is going. I'm not sure if it has something to do with being out or not but I think that it has to do with people's priorities. People who are bisexual sometimes do not seem to identify as strongly with their sexuality as say economic factors. I suspect that a bisexual like yourself living in a same sex relationship without being able to marry feel differently than a biguy who is married in a cross gender relationship whether his partner knows his sexuality or not. He is not looking for the same things as you may be looking for as far as his bisexuality. The politics of sexuality seems to mean very little to many on this site. This is just a hunch based on what you read in these threads over the years.

I think that it is very interesting how people believe that Obama is to blame for the US economy. They exempt the previous administration as a casual factor. They exempt the global economic situation. I do have to wonder who ever gets in if they really have "the answer" to the US and global economic situation. The world is linked fiscally very closely together now.

[Annika L]

I suspect that a bisexual like yourself living in a same sex relationship without being able to marry feel differently than a biguy who is married in a cross gender relationship whether his partner knows his sexuality or not. He is not looking for the same things as you may be looking for as far as his bisexuality. The politics of sexuality seems to mean very little to many on this site. [...]

I think that it is very interesting how people believe that Obama is to blame for the US economy.

I think we're saying the same thing here tenni. When I say "out", I mean "out" generally...not just to one's partner (and thank you for making it clear that if I do post the poll I mention above, I'll need to better define "out"). So what I said was pretty much that someone who is out only to a small few does not view their human rights as in jeopardy in the same way as those of us who are visible...and hence they are more likely to focus on their other interests when voting...e.g., their fiscal interests.

My queer-related interests are far from limited to just marriage, btw. Many people (politicians included) would love to see us outlawed, would like to see us persecuted, harrassed...or more specifically, would like to see such persecution and harrassment as fully sanctioned by society...they want to see couples like myself and my partner hiding in fear, rather than being open about our relationship...it rankles them that we are have gained such acceptance and sympathy as we have over the years, and they would like to roll that back. And if the Mitts and Ryans of the world have their way, people, don't kid yourself that it won't affect you, even if you are already hiding in fear (no I am NOT saying that everyone who isn't out is hiding in fear).

Anyway, regarding your statement about Obama and the economy, I couldn't agree more. People expected him to fix in 4 years the damage Bush did in 8? Y'think we can fuck up our economy however we want, and then elect a Democrat and be back to surplusses in 4 years? Even Clinton needed 8 years to get us to a budget surplus...and look what we did the *second* we got a surplus. Oh, I'm sure they thought yeah, well at least we figured the deficit wouldn't have *grown* in this time...at least Obama'd have made *progress*. *sigh* Unfortunately, large economies have momentum, as do large fiscal policies like the Bush tax cuts, and the decision to wage 2 wars with no means to pay for them (necessary as you may argue they were). If you wanted deficits manageable by 2012, Obama would have had to repeal the tax cuts and end the wars as soon as he took office...and if he'd done that, then (a) no amount of economic progress that *might* have resulted from such a shock to the system would have made him acceptable to the public now (y'might say "well a good president would do what's best for the country, even if it destroys his chance of re-election", but y'know what? If he'd done that, we'd just go and elect someone now who'd fuck it up even worse); and (b) we'd be an international mess the likes of which we've never seen. He's in a shit position, sure enough. But his fault? No. He's doing what can be done to slow and reverse the damage, and he's doing a great job of managing our international stage in the process. I'm not sure anyone can really fix it. But I'm pretty damned sure a Romney presidency would make both fiscal and international matters far worse.

*smile, and offers the soapbox to the next person*

[DuckiesDarling]

I think we're saying the same thing here tenni. When I say "out", I mean "out" generally...not just to one's partner (and thank you for making it clear that if I do post the poll I mention above, I'll need to better define "out"). So what I said was pretty much that someone who is out only to a small few does not view their human rights as in jeopardy in the same way as those of us who are visible...and hence they are more likely to focus on their other interests when voting...e.g., their fiscal interests.

My queer-related interests are far from limited to just marriage, btw. Many people (politicians included) would love to see us outlawed, would like to see us persecuted, harrassed...or more specifically, would like to see such persecution and harrassment as fully sanctioned by society...they want to see couples like myself and my partner hiding in fear, rather than being open about our relationship...it rankles them that we are have gained such acceptance and sympathy as we have over the years, and they would like to roll that back. And if the Mitts and Ryans of the world have their way, people, don't kid yourself that it won't affect you, even if you are already hiding in fear (no I am NOT saying that everyone who isn't out is hiding in fear).

Anyway, regarding your statement about Obama and the economy, I couldn't agree more. People expected him to fix in 4 years the damage Bush did in 8? Y'think we can fuck up our economy however we want, and then elect a Democrat and be back to surplusses in 4 years? Even Clinton needed 8 years to get us to a budget surplus...and look what we did the *second* we got a surplus. Oh, I'm sure they thought yeah, well at least we figured the deficit wouldn't have *grown* in this time...at least Obama'd have made *progress*. *sigh* Unfortunately, large economies have momentum, as do large fiscal policies like the Bush tax cuts, and the decision to wage 2 wars with no means to pay for them (necessary as you may argue they were). If you wanted deficits manageable by 2012, Obama would have had to repeal the tax cuts and end the wars as soon as he took office...and if he'd done that, then (a) no amount of economic progress that *might* have resulted from such a shock to the system would have made him acceptable to the public now (y'might say "well a good president would do what's best for the country, even if it destroys his chance of re-election", but y'know what? If he'd done that, we'd just go and elect someone now who'd fuck it up even worse); and (b) we'd be an international mess the likes of which we've never seen. He's in a shit position, sure enough. But his fault? No. He's doing what can be done to slow and reverse the damage, and he's doing a great job of managing our international stage in the process. I'm not sure anyone can really fix it. But I'm pretty damned sure a Romney presidency would make both fiscal and international matters far worse.

*smile, and offers the soapbox to the next person*

Not much more I can say to that, but bravo. I love the way people keep going you can't blame Bush, he's been gone... ummm yeah well we still have people blaming Nixon, Kennedy and Johnson for Vietnam. Your point?

[tall tale]

" He's doing what can be done to slow and reverse the damage, and he's doing a great job of managing our international stage in the process. I'm not sure anyone can really fix it. But I'm pretty damned sure a Romney presidency would make both fiscal and international matters far worse".

On what planet do you reside on?

[Long Duck Dong]

the way the us is at the moment, reminds me of the state of affairs in NZ with the labour government, they left NZ in such a state that the current national government is going to need a second, if not 3rd term in government to undo the damage done by labour..... and non of the labour supporters are admitting or accepting that there was a 15 bill dollar shortfall before national took power, and that 15 billion dollars had to be replaced somehow.... by borrowing 250 mill a week while national tries to stop NZ going under.....

obama inherited a ongoing war, cash shortage and other issues.... ongoing issues that require funding and so the US debt is going thru the roof.....but its not like obama created the wars over the last 20 years, he inherited them so when people talk about the increasing debt under obama, its as if they neglect to see that he is only doing what has to be done in order to keep the US afloat.....

it would make no difference who wins the election, they will have to deal with mass debt, unemployment, issues with healthcare etc.... and the first thing that should be on any politicians mind is not what to cut, who to kick, what rights to strip, but how the fuck do they stop the US going the way of spain, greece and other countries....cos that is exactly what is going to happen if they do not get their heads out of their asses and work on bringing the US back from the brink of fuckedville.....

elections for me are a time of chest puffing, finger pointing and trash talking... and too lil of this is what we have, this is what we need to do, these are our options....

[tall tale]

Whenever I need to know of the current affairs of the United States, as it pertains to politics, or anything for that matter, I shall defer to people who live twelve thousand miles away.

[Annika L]

On what planet do you reside on?

I make it a point not to give out personal information in such a public forum...suffice it to say that I'm currently spending some time on this one.

In what language do you natively speak in?

[tall tale]

The statement was not a reflection of anything you said.

[DuckiesDarling]

Personally, Tall Tale, I'm thinking your name fits if you want us to continue to believe your Republican Fairy Tale, we were in trouble for a long time, every since Republicans took over from Clinton. But nope you all just can't see the light while you continue hiding your issues. Romney has fucking flip flopped on every major issue depending on who is he talking to at the time. He condemns the poor, the middle class and anyone not born with a silver spoon in their mouths while squirreling away money in the Cayman Islands. I don't know about you, but I pay attention to the facts, the real facts, not the political bs that both sides and even the independents are spewing. I am proudly voting Obama and every other Democrat on the ticket either up for election or re-election and there is not a damned thing anyone can post on this forum to make me change my mind.

91439144

[Long Duck Dong]

Whenever I need to know of the current affairs of the United States, as it pertains to politics, or anything for that matter, I shall defer to people who live twelve thousand miles away.

roflmao, if I could, the first thing I would do, is fire all the politicians, there are plenty of people with good business sense, that are average joes running charities and small businesses and they know how to get a lot out of sweet fuck all.... the health system would be run by the doctors and nurses that know what is needed where, why and how... grass roots for me, is where the common sense is, cos its those people that are the backbone of the country...

not sure about the US but we have 130 odd politicians ( 13+ different parties ) running a country of 4.3 mill people and the average salary of a MP is 80k - 340K plus perks such as housing costs covered even when they own their own houses ( helen clark owned 7 houses and still claimed the housing allowance ) car supplied with all costs covered, air travel for them and their partners, paid for, including annual leave air travel... and that is not including their own personal incomes from investments and businesses..... serve a few 3 year terms and they are automatically entitled to a superannuation ( pension ) that is equal to the annual income of 6 pensioner couples... estimated cost to the country of 200+ mill a year...... not bad for a average 270 working days a year

compare that to the average wage of NZ of 42k a year ( beneficiaries make around 13k ) average 320 working days a year......

I may be 12k miles away from the US, but my opinion of US politicians is the same as the politicians in my own country... I hate them

[Katja]

roflmao, if I could, the first thing I would do, is fire all the politicians, there are plenty of people with good business sense, that are average joes running charities and small businesses and they know how to get a lot out of sweet fuck all....
Many if not most of our troubles have been created by just such people who enter politics to bend society and the business culture in their favour. Many British politicians have a banking pedigree and indeed still are employed by banks and other financial institutions; still have business interests and are chairmen and directors of large, sometimes very large companies. Most of the British cabinet are such people, and if formally they have had to resign such positions it would be surprising indeed if there was not a prejudicial favouring of their former employers and their kind. Having such people run nations, as they still do, has hardly been of great benefit to the economy of the world. The very last people I would entrust with the well-being of a nation are business people. Them and the other predominant force in politics - lawyers.

[Annika L]

roflmao, if I could, the first thing I would do, is fire all the politicians

LOL...I have a strong feeling that the majority of Americans might thank you for that. Unfortunately, the next thing they'd do is hire in another batch that's at least as bad as what we have now. Democracy is a strange system (not that I'd have it any other way)...rule by the people is only as good as your people...well, I suppose only as good as your average voting person...and no better than the best of who's running (often significantly worse).

[NNEIL]

I am voting oboma because if romney wins we are still going to be in debuit

[mariersa]

Not much more I can say to that, but bravo. I love the way people keep going you can't blame Bush, he's been gone... ummm yeah well we still have people blaming Nixon, Kennedy and Johnson for Vietnam. Your point? History is blaming them, not their immediate successors, well except for Johnson I suppose, oh well ,aybe the answer is to find someone who has actual knowledge and experience in dealing with tough situations, not passing the buck. Delegating responsibility which came up with failed programs which where extremely expensive and accomplished absolutely nothing for long term positive growth. Can someone take responsibility for anything going on in this administration??

[Katja]

History is blaming them, not their immediate successors, well except for Johnson I suppose, oh well ,aybe the answer is to find someone who has actual knowledge and experience in dealing with tough situations, not passing the buck. Delegating responsibility which came up with failed programs which where extremely expensive and accomplished absolutely nothing for long term positive growth. Can someone take responsibility for anything going on in this administration??
History blames no-one. Blame is attached to historical characters by historians and commentators depending upon their political and personal bent and not always because of an honest appraisal of the facts as they are known. Similarly, blame is attached to contemporary characters for contemporary events because of personal and political inclination and rarely because of any real knowledge of what is occurring or has actually occurred. Taking responsibility is something politicians are notoriously bad at. They may say they take responsibility, but it is rarely their heads which roll. Falling on swords is not something politicians do except when they are given no option.

[Realist]

It's best when politicians can get others to fall on their swords for them, Katja!

[Katja]

It's best when politicians can get others to fall on their swords for them, Katja!And when they can't, they impale civil servants on their swords as instanced by the recent mess over the franchise for the west coast railway line in this country. The 'buck stops here' as far as possible when it is the civil servant's stomaches or backs that are signposted 'here'. A not isolated example of abrogation of responsibility by British politicians, or those of any other country.

[tenni]

"Personally, Tall Tale, I'm thinking your name fits if you want us to continue to believe your Republican Fairy Tale, we were in trouble for a long time"

This reads to me as a form of a "put down" and in that sense is not dealing with the issue but the person. It is a form of personal attack. It would be nice if some posters would stop this rude behaviour as it does nothing positive for this site.

[Long Duck Dong]

I wonder how many people watched the debate between romney and obama and it made about as much sense as this


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlwilbVYvUg

[Annika L]

OMG, what a brilliant concept! Very well done! LOLOL

[DuckiesDarling]

http://youtu.be/yTCRwi71_ns

[Sensualhunter]

Romney/Ryan?!? Really?!?

Guess we have a lot of wealthy bi people here who do not mind going back to the Bush years. Pretty sad IMHO

[fredtyg]

Seems to me we've been living the Bush years for close to twelve years now.

[mariersa]

Romney/Ryan?!? Really?!?

Guess we have a lot of wealthy bi people here who do not mind going back to the Bush years. Pretty sad IMHO

Put on your Shocked Face:yikes2: Surprise 25-35% of the LGBT community isn't flaming liberals and quite possibly may be doing better in IYHO, oh my oh my and, no we didn't cook the books hahahaha


http://video.foxnews.com/v/1906072689001/

[darkeyes]

Put on your Shocked Face:yikes2: Surprise 25-35% of the LGBT community isn't flaming liberals and quite possibly may be doing better in IYHO, oh my oh my and, no we didn't cook the books hahahaha


http://video.foxnews.com/v/1906072689001/
Not shocked... saddened but not shocked.. for so many to support a party which would squeeze the life out of them, deprive them of their rights to be truly free, and which has many supporters and members who would hunt them down like vermin, and increase the legal discrimination against them, pass constitutional amendments to oppress them and would have them forced back into that God-awful closet, what's there not to be saddened about? Get real, Mars, and stop sounding so bloody pleased with yasel... coming from a continent with so much anti lgbt oppression and a country where just being lessie can get u hunted down and butchered, it really does churn the tummy..

..and from what we are told, the electoral books of the USA are already being cooked to prevent many citizens from casting a vote.. surprisingly to prevent mostly those who are likely to be pro Obama from voting... well... what can I say to that.. ha ha bloody ha girl...

[void()]

9319

As my nephew is fond of using as a catchphrase -----

Seriously?


9320

[jak9495]

Come on... Romney or Obama, Obama or Romney... we have other options! Gary Johnson gets my vote.

[darkeyes]

Come on... Romney or Obama, Obama or Romney... we have other options! Gary Johnson gets my vote.
We should always be very carfeul about our use of the vote and the things we wish for as we cast it.. millions of people in this country who normally vote left of centre voted for a 3rd party (of the left) in the last election.. that party actually did very well indeed.. the idea was to stop the general 2 party hegemony which existed in this country.. what they got was a party which had (they thought) a say in one side of that duopoly.. the right side... not their own .. although not much.. and they have as a left of centre party become a part of the most right wing, illiberal and reactionary government this country has had since the early years of Thatcher... one which implements many of the policies of Romney and the Republicans, and see our country sink deeper into the mire, debt spiralling out of control, our freedoms threatened, our health service butchered, all but a few become poorer, many impoverished, we are, unlike the US, in a bona fide recession with no sign of any recovery and the right wing party of that coalition becoming ever nastier, more xenophobic and more dogmatic, ever more ignoring its liberal coalition ally who support them now for reasons of self preservation and pursuing policies which make the very wealthy even more wealthy and ignoring absolutely and completely the wishes and aspirations of the overwhelming majority of the population of the people they govern...

.. just watch how u vote if u cannot support Obama and do not support Romney... because u may get exactly what u don't want by so doing... just a friendly word of warning from across the sea.... your system may be different.. but there are enough similarities to beware of doing as u suggest... millions did here just over 2 years ago and they are paying for it in spades and in misery.,,

[fredtyg]

The thing about this U.S. election darkeyes, is we have a case here where the two major candidates are very close on most issues. For instance, wouldn't it be nice instead of hearing the two main candidates discuss which one of them will be more aggressive in the middle east, to have a third voice questioning whether we should be involved in the middle east at all?

Wouldn't it be nice to have someone other than the two candidates on stage talking about how tough they'll be on terrorism (one signed and one said he would have signed authorization for indefinite detention of American citizens) and have someone talk about defending American's civil rights, instead?

This race is unique in that we actually have a credible candidate running for office with more executive experience than Romney and Obama combined. Gary Johnson was the Governor of New Mexico for 8 years- a Republican Governor in a largely Democratic state. He's both fiscally responsible and socially tolerant, something which can't be said of either Romney or Obama.

But he's ignored because so many take such a simple view of politics: Us vs them, left vs. right, good vs. bad. They can't fathom the thought of any other way. So, don't worry, Obama fans. You win regardless of which of the top two candidates win. For the most part Obama has continued the Bush Presidency. If Romney wins he'll likely carry on the traditions of the other two.

[darkeyes]

Close on most issues? I think that is arguable.. but I do agree that not just 3rd but 4th 5th and 6th candidates et al should be heard... took this country a long time 2 break out of a 2 party system... but I return to what I say.. however many candidates u have, just be careful for what u wish for...

[fredtyg]

Close on most issues?
Taking a look:

[darkeyes]

Taking a look:
Quite disingenuous.. I did say arguable and it is.. very..... anyone with half a brain can tell that within that list of similarities there are substantial and real differences between Obama and Romney on all or most of the issues listed...as for Johnson... the thought of a right wing libertarian running the US is enough to make me blood run cold... I am a libertarian.. but not one such as he would recognise...

[gladius]

One thing for sure, when the people have had their share of a dominant two party system, they will forge another one or two. I am not advocating for this party, but the Tea Party is just one example that has made inroads on this subject. As for the Libertarian party, well, we all haven't gone crazy lately and they will never get more than a small percent of people to bang the pots and pans for them. Darkeyes, the libertarian in the U.S. is not one to be considered right wing, for sure, they don't even really know what they stand for except the need to be left alone and smoke pot.

[darkeyes]

[QUOTE=gladius;240782 Darkeyes, the libertarian in the U.S. is not one to be considered right wing, for sure, they don't even really know what they stand for except the need to be left alone and smoke pot.[/QUOTE]We will have to agree to differ on that but no matter.. they certainly can't be considered of the left...

[Annika L]

We will have to agree to differ on that but no matter.. they certainly can't be considered of the left...

But I think this is part of the point, no? The whole reason for wanting more than two parties is because not everyone's feelings can easily be characterized on a spectrum from right to left...especially these days when left has moved so far right!

I do think, though, that we've seen in several of the past few elections the danger of the assumption that "oh, there's no real difference between the candidates...I'm gonna cast a protest vote in favor of _______; or even vote for _______ because I think he's the best candidate, even though he has no chance of winning." Because as Fran mentions, there damned well *are* real differences between the candidates, and some need to be guarded against at all costs (though clearly many of us differ on who those are).

So I don't know what the solution is to get us more than two parties...I agree it's necessary that we get them...but I maintain that it's dangerous to try to achieve that by simply pretending that we do have them. If everyone would play that game, it would work...but they don't/won't. And so for now, we seem stuck.

[DuckiesDarling]

The bottom line is that it comes down to whose values you actually support. Are you for or against LGBT rights, for or against women's rights, for or against raising taxes on the rich, for or against protecting our most vulnerable? Honestly, I look at anyone who can say Romney is the better choice on any of these issues as someone in need of a severe wake up call. Isn't it time to stop the partisan politics and actually look at issues? Isn't it time to put the racism aside and actually look at issues? Romney scares the fuck out of me, he wants to take away every right that I have and prevent me from getting more. To me voting Romney is on par with voting Tom Cruise as best actor.

[fredtyg]

the thought of a right wing libertarian running the US is enough to make me blood run cold... I am a libertarian.. but not one such as he would recognise...

A "right wing libertarian", elected twice to the Governorship of a predominantly Democratic state? Whatever.

[Long Duck Dong]

we have MMP in NZ, mixed member proportion.. and it means that we had to increase the number of MPs that we have in NZ, so we are basically paying for more people to do nothing other than complain about how NZ is not perfect...... and we get the *benefits * and I use the term loosely, of a multiple choice when it comes for voting at elections.....

the side effect of that, is that a lot more time is spent arguing and debating over issues that are not really essential to the running of NZ, and a lot less time getting shit done....and that can mean that issues that could be resolved and sorted, are generally dragged out for longer....

we have the two main parties of national and labour... and then we have the smaller parties...

the greens party, all about saving the planet, taking rights off people ( parents have lost the right to discipline their children ) while claiming that they are for human rights, they oppose most of the options available to NZ as a form of income, they have helped cripple the forestry and mining industries and are well known for hiding when things go wrong in NZ as a result of their stances, they generally side with labour but will change sides if it means they can get their laws passed, including some of the resource consent laws that have resulted in many projects being dropped in NZ with the loss of 4.7 billion dollars a year in generated incomes and 18k jobs that could have been created, cos the costs to the companies with the resource consents have run into the 100s of millions of dollars and take years to be approved

NZ first, pro equal rights for all, anti immigration, anti maori rights, pro elderly.... and regarded as a minority support party

ACT party, they are another minority support party that doesn't really do stuff all other than add numbers to support labour.....

mana party, a party that is led by a racist and very opinionated maori who is known for his stance that non maori are white puritanical motherfuckers ( his actual words ), his side kick is sue bradford, former greens party member famous for the anti smacking law in NZ, while having a track record of bad parenting herself, and also known as rent a protestor, will protest anything and everything including the housing reforms that would see people in better, government subsidized housing while bitching about the substandard housing that people live in, minority support party

christian conservative party, anti LGBT religion party, enuf said....

maori party, the only party in NZ that has guaranteed seats in parliament by law so even if they never got a vote in the election they have a free pass, known as the handout party as their main stance is everything for maori should be given out free while others pay for the same thing.... also known as a party support changer as they will side with labour or national, depending on who is in control as government.....

united future, another christian party that prides itself as the * common sense * party but better known as the party led by peter * done nothing * dunne.... they are a spin off of another christian party whose leader was arrested and convicted of sex crimes against under age girls.....


while many choices in the US government would be brilliant for the people of the US, it raises the question of would your vote actually be a vote to get things done or a vote that would add to the bitching and back stabbing of the political arena, that appears to be a requirement of a persons role as a politician and for nothing to get done in a reasonable time frame......sometimes the grass is not greener on the other side of the fence.... and some of the *grass * is what people want legalized so they can smoke it....

while I am not a US citizen and therefore my opinion is but a whisper in the wind, things in the US do affect NZ, a bit like obamas push for a free trade agreement with NZ that would benefit NZ when it comes to importing more US goods and a lot less made in china goods... and the spin off effect is that it would mean that jobs in the US would become more secure as demand from NZ is increased.... and the other side of the coin is, that if the US goes broke, the world economy is going to look like europe.....

[gladius]

The bottom line is that it comes down to whose values you actually support. Are you for or against LGBT rights, for or against women's rights, for or against raising taxes on the rich, for or against protecting our most vulnerable? Honestly, I look at anyone who can say Romney is the better choice on any of these issues as someone in need of a severe wake up call. Isn't it time to stop the partisan politics and actually look at issues? Isn't it time to put the racism aside and actually look at issues? Romney scares the fuck out of me, he wants to take away every right that I have and prevent me from getting more. To me voting Romney is on par with voting Tom Cruise as best actor.

I'm beyond speechless.

[DuckiesDarling]

http://youtu.be/93X6cHH2WrM

http://liberal-agenda.com/2012/10/president-clinton-clears-up-the-budget-lies-romney-thinks-were-dumb/

[darkeyes]

A "right wing libertarian", elected twice to the Governorship of a predominantly Democratic state? Whatever.For three consecutive elections in this country Labour dominated the political map of the south East of England... hardly a part of the world we could call anything other than prime Conservative territory... it happens... in 1955 the Conservatives won a majority of seats in Scotland for the first and only time in British electoral history.. blips happen for various reasons..sometimes even they may become almost permanent.. as was the case when Labour replaced the old liberals as the predominant party of Scotland and other parts of the country a century ago.. as may have happened in Scotland now as the Nationalists are currently the people running the place with an absolute majority after overcoming an electoral system which was designed to prevent just that... and with a referendum on independence now agreed and less than years away who knows just where that will lead...

[darkeyes]

while I am not a US citizen and therefore my opinion is but a whisper in the wind, things in the US do affect NZ, a bit like obamas push for a free trade agreement with NZ that would benefit NZ when it comes to importing more US goods and a lot less made in china goods... and the spin off effect is that it would mean that jobs in the US would become more secure as demand from NZ is increased.... and the other side of the coin is, that if the US goes broke, the world economy is going to look like europe.....I really think it isn't the US government u want to chat 2 if u want to be able to buy US goods, Duckie... buying American often involves buying Chinese or whatever... much of Chinese manufactured goods imported by developed countries are goods produced by western companies, including American... so many of the goods manufactured by British companies are produced for them in China and elsewhere in the far east and imported into the UK... an unpleasant reality of the culture of modern global capitalism.. it is how u change that culture that should be addressed, or as I have often heard argued by some, whether it needs changing...

[DuckiesDarling]

9401

Yep, even the Libertarians realize Mitt is something bad.

[Long Duck Dong]

I really think it isn't the US government u want to chat 2 if u want to be able to buy US goods, Duckie... buying American often involves buying Chinese or whatever... much of Chinese manufactured goods imported by developed countries are goods produced by western companies, including American... so many of the goods manufactured by British companies are produced for them in China and elsewhere in the far east and imported into the UK... an unpleasant reality of the culture of modern global capitalism.. it is how u change that culture that should be addressed, or as I have often heard argued by some, whether it needs changing...


nz signed a free trade agreement with china that undercut a lot of the local producers and has cost jobs.... incidently it was labour, a socialist government that did it in the face of overwhelming opposition from local producers that can no longer compete with the cheaper chinese goods

a lot of american products may be made in china, but we still have to buy them through america cos its america that sells them and that is why NZ has suffered cos of the trade tax with the us that was created when NZ opposed nuclear ships in NZ waters, thank you very much greenies and labour government.....

obama said it is about time that the trade tax was dropped as it was of no benefit to either country.....

so fran, butt out will you.... freedom of speech doesn't equal understanding of what is going on in other countries

[gladius]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTp9ba-4JbOp7-CgjiGTT34q6WzmBxvyVIx-fHBs18tThRk5DKf:4.bp.blogspot.com/-iclghzfDPW4/UHmwW--4o0I/AAAAAAAAKjo/JvCEsCpIRZg/s1600/Gary%2BJohnson%2BBUT%2BVote%2BFor%2BMe%2BAnyway.jp g

Play theme music of the X Files while viewing this.

[darkeyes]

nz signed a free trade agreement with china that undercut a lot of the local producers and has cost jobs.... incidently it was labour, a socialist government that did it in the face of overwhelming opposition from local producers that can no longer compete with the cheaper chinese goods

a lot of american products may be made in china, but we still have to buy them through america cos its america that sells them and that is why NZ has suffered cos of the trade tax with the us that was created when NZ opposed nuclear ships in NZ waters, thank you very much greenies and labour government.....

obama said it is about time that the trade tax was dropped as it was of no benefit to either country.....

so fran, butt out will you.... freedom of speech doesn't equal understanding of what is going on in other countries
I have more understanding than u think Duckie.. I know how it works and was not trying to win points merely pointing out the reality of modern day economics, employment and trade...

...and if the US was so petty to shove tax on NZ cos it wouldn't allow nuclear ships in NZ waters then ur issue was with the US not the parties who decided on the policy.. or are u really saying bigger countries can use their weight to penalise smaller ones for deciding on polices they don't like thus interfering with the democratic rights of nations to decide their own destiny? All a bit petty wasn't it? U may agree that the government of NZ of the time and even subsequently was and is wrong in acting as it did and continuing the policy, and that the US had a gripe... but whatever decision ur government took it plainly had the right to take it for good or ill... and it answers to the electorate for its decisions.. not to an external power...but we all know it goes on.and substantially is why the world is so conflicted and in such a mess... doesn't stop it often being petty.. bowing to blackmail is never a good thing... reasoned discussion and trying to resolve differences without such a heavy handed and spiteful response by the larger, richer and stronger power is... are little nations sovereign or are they not? Reagan tried to tell NZ that they weren't.. and he lost...well done NZ and also well done Obama for some mature grown up politics with some joined up thinking.....

[Long Duck Dong]

I was saying that the labour party of NZ decided that they did not want nuclear ships in NZ waters..... so its not a issue with the US at all, its a issue with a socialist government with a track history of not thinking things through.... the US reacted in the way they did as they saw it as a kick in the balls cos of things like the anzus treaty that the labour government had a habit of trying to renege on..... and the anzus treaty was part of a defence agreement with australia and the US, cos as a small country we would never be able to cover our own asses if push came to shove......

labour is also the same government that sold off nz's main airforce aircraft or tried to... it ended up costing the country 10's of millions of dollars cos we did not have the permission to sell the planes, the US still held control over the technology used in the aircraft.......

the US played by the same ruless that the labour government played by and banned NZ military ships from the US..... and when NZ asked for a free trade agreement with the US, they got laughed at, australia got a free trade agreement with the US......

so yes the government has the right to act as they see fit and answer for it at election time.... but it has never changed the fact that labour has never accepted responsibility for the mess they created....

[darkeyes]

I was saying that the labour party of NZ decided that they did not want nuclear ships in NZ waters..... so its not a issue with the US at all, its a issue with a socialist government with a track history of not thinking things through.... the US reacted in the way they did as they saw it as a kick in the balls cos of things like the anzus treaty that the labour government had a habit of trying to renege on..... and the anzus treaty was part of a defence agreement with australia and the US, cos as a small country we would never be able to cover our own asses if push came to shove......

labour is also the same government that sold off nz's main airforce aircraft or tried to... it ended up costing the country 10's of millions of dollars cos we did not have the permission to sell the planes, the US still held control over the technology used in the aircraft.......

the US played by the same ruless that the labour government played by and banned NZ military ships from the US..... and when NZ asked for a free trade agreement with the US, they got laughed at, australia got a free trade agreement with the US......

so yes the government has the right to act as they see fit and answer for it at election time.... but it has never changed the fact that labour has never accepted responsibility for the mess they created....
ahhh these nasty treacherous incompetent lefties.. cant b trusted can they? Responsibility for a mess is in the eye of the beholder, Duckie...u would fit in very well with Cameron and his bunch of wazzocks over here... everything u say about Labour NZ they say about Labour UK and so they dismantle whatever good they did.. and what a fine ole mess they are making of it... just as Romney will given the opportunity since his economic and political philosophy is much the same...

[IanBorthwick]

ahhh these nasty treacherous incompetent lefties..


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum

Just thought I'd give you a graph as to why you fail at trolling Fran. This chart would wake you up...IF you read it and understood it.

9423

AT issue is your understanding(ROFLMAO) of socialism and a Socialist Democracy. I know the nuance escapes you, but hopefully the chart will help.

[gladius]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum

Just thought I'd give you a graph as to why you fail at trolling Fran. This chart would wake you up...IF you read it and understood it.

9423

AT issue is your understanding(ROFLMAO) of socialism and a Socialist Democracy. I know the nuance escapes you, but hopefully the chart will help.

The hubris displayed is astounding. I may not agree with social democracies, but I would defer to her opinions on one, being she lives in one.

[IanBorthwick]

The hubris displayed is astounding. I may not agree with social democracies, but I would defer to her opinions on one, being she lives in one.

The fact you do not know we live in one doesn't astound me...

9424


By the way, since you have so much extra time on your hands to troll....

9425

[darkeyes]

Me understanding of such things is just fine ta, Ian... a lot better than ur understanding of very much....

[darkeyes]

The hubris displayed is astounding. I may not agree with social democracies, but I would defer to her opinions on one, being she lives in one.
Yes I live in a social democracy.. its becoming a little less social and a fair bit less democratic every day.. and Ian is right, even the US is a social democracy of sorts. But his snarky wee post was about socialist democracy, which I do not live in, and is an entirely different thing bearing little relationship to the societies either u or I live in...

[softfruit]

Nonsense, the UK's done a weird shuffle in moving from the 1997-2010 centre-right coalition government to the current left/right coalition, and there are inevitably howls of outrage from self-interested groups who are used to thirteen years of governance in their own sectional interest, but we're overall in much the same place as we were three years ago. Labour's ongoing privatisation of the health service halted on the one hand, democratic renewal stymied on the other. Income taxes on high pay up on what it was under Blair, tax on the low-paid down. Public spending is down £80bn, but then the proposals from the three sides at the 2010 election were for cuts of between £80bn and £96bn. Authoritarian measures like the national identity register (where if the state got your file wrong, you got fined for their error) have been rolled back.

Yet to drag us back toward the common subject here though: the UK's politics is quite dissimilar from the USA's in that at least a significant swathe of each of our three parties are pro gay equalities: we didn't have that in the 80s and 90s, and there are vocal minorities on the Labour and Tory benches against things like equal marriage even now, but to compare it to a Presidential election, all the party leaders are signed up to the basic idea. Even Cameron - our equivalent of Romney - has publicly lambasted the Church for its hostility to the idea. It's probably what makes it so hard to get our heads round: the values Romney espouses on queer issues (and other things too) are so far outside the normal discourse here now, it's like travelling back in time to the 70s and 80s.

We don't elect the Prime Minister, we elect MPs who then choose a PM from among their ranks, but if we did - Romney would be an out-of-touch fringe candidate, a relic more the butt of comedy shows than a contender.

[IanBorthwick]

We don't elect the Prime Minister, we elect MPs who then choose a PM from among their ranks, but if we did - Romney would be an out-of-touch fringe candidate, a relic more the butt of comedy shows than a contender.


In a way he kind of IS the butt of a lot of jokes. The one thing we lack right now, and I am SO sad to say it, is a media willing to go after him in the cutting sense that British Comedy is known to do. The media, far from being liberal here in the US, is owned wholly by the conservative corporations and as such have directives to stay "Neutral" rather than impartial. AS a result it's been watering down for about 30 years, and a lot of the journalistic edge required to assault ALL sides for their faults has flown.

In its place we have a luke-warm attention to detail, fact checking that happens much too late and is heard by few or only those willing to seek it out, and so many innuendos and lies to once again water down the differences. This allows people to get away with the bankrupt and illogical position that both sides are the same, and push that dogma til it screams. if nothing else, this shift has allowed me to find educated people who educate the viewers on the realities of our democracy and how it's being punched in the goonies. Thom Hartman is, quite possibly, the best educator on RT I have seen and refuses a "Neutral" spin. Next would be The Young Turks, but their failings are easily spotted as Gynocentricity and walking lockstep to the idea that men are no better than animals. Rachel Maddow, whom Fran should be watching for wake up calls(psst, she's a lesbian too!) and could teach her to look beyond the end of her own nose politically.

If you take a lie and RUN with it, as I have seen many people do here, including friends who got things ass backward, you're furthering the disinformative causes they were created to bolster, and it's YOUR responsibility when you pass that lie on. No matter WHO YOU ARE. Whether it was Bank of America saying they were going to lay off 200k jobs in March of 2011 and then come September of 2011, they were blaming those job "losses" on the Occupy Movement, that didn't even EXIST half a year prior...well that's just plain irresponsible. You have a responsibility in a responsible world to fact check your comments, to be responsible for your failings, to own your lies no matter where they came from.

And even more importantly, you have the responsibility to stop pushing your opinions as facts. No one has the right to do that. Your ignorance will never trump facts, nor are you allowed to shame someone into silence because your arguments lack credibility and facts. And as a direct reality of those facts, you also do not get the right, in fact you have the inverse to a right on this, you cannot complain if you do not like your own tactics used against you.



“I have been thinking that I would make a proposition to my Republican friends... that if they will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them. (http://thinkexist.com/quotation/i_have_been_thinking_that_i_would_make_a/222846.html)”


http://thinkexist.com/i/sq/as3.gif Adlai E. Stevenson quotes (http://thinkexist.com/quotes/adlai_e._stevenson/)

[darkeyes]

Nonsense, the UK's done a weird shuffle in moving from the 1997-2010 centre-right coalition government to the current left/right coalition, and there are inevitably howls of outrage from self-interested groups who are used to thirteen years of governance in their own sectional interest, but we're overall in much the same place as we were three years ago. Labour's ongoing privatisation of the health service halted on the one hand, democratic renewal stymied on the other. Income taxes on high pay up on what it was under Blair, tax on the low-paid down. Public spending is down £80bn, but then the proposals from the three sides at the 2010 election were for cuts of between £80bn and £96bn. Authoritarian measures like the national identity register (where if the state got your file wrong, you got fined for their error) have been rolled back.

Yet to drag us back toward the common subject here though: the UK's politics is quite dissimilar from the USA's in that at least a significant swathe of each of our three parties are pro gay equalities: we didn't have that in the 80s and 90s, and there are vocal minorities on the Labour and Tory benches against things like equal marriage even now, but to compare it to a Presidential election, all the party leaders are signed up to the basic idea. Even Cameron - our equivalent of Romney - has publicly lambasted the Church for its hostility to the idea. It's probably what makes it so hard to get our heads round: the values Romney espouses on queer is sues (and other things too) are so far outside the normal discourse here now, it's like travelling back in time to the 70s and 80s.

We don't elect the Prime Minister, we elect MPs who then choose a PM from among their ranks, but if we did - Romney would be an out-of-touch fringe candidate, a relic more the butt of comedy shows than a contender.
The UK has done no weird shuffle.. what it has done is to make a major swing to the right in accord with the philosophy substantially of the major partner in the coalition government with very limited input of value by the "left" of centre minor party of government... the rejection of a centre left government at the last election has seen a sea change in the political, social and economic governance of the the UK and a substantial move to the right on almost every issue.

The limited privatisation of the NHS by Labour (substantial in its own right) was not halted but has been speeded up, expanded and become far more wide ranging than anything Blair and certainly Brown ever envisaged and contrary to any claims of ring fencing health spending, spending is decreasing, the health service contracting, waiting times lengthen and the health of the less well of in particular worsens. although this is less true of Scotland where the Scottish Parliament has responsibility for health and privatisation plays a much lesser part in their considerations...... while it is true that there have been some increases in income tax for the wealthy and some reductions for the low paid. the triple whammy of inflation, several years of pay freezes and a substantial jump in VAT have served to ensure that overall most people are worse off. All of course except those who created the mess we are in, and the "captains" of industry and those who enjoy what is an obscene bonus culture... and the obscenely wealthy should not be forgotten.. and that benefits for the worst off..the sick, disabled and unemployed..those least able to defend themselves and with least prospects...wither on the vine as government removes benefits in one way or other from increasing numbers to force people into jobs which simply don't exist or are part time in nature leaving them worse off than before. Housing repossessions gather apace, homelessness increases and more people live on the streets, mortgages more difficult to get, house prices drop, house building has stalled, industry contracts, trade worsens and the economy has once again dipped into recession needlessly.

The UK is cutting harder and faster than is either needed or is desirable and recession is result... it is Tory dogma which determines cuts not logic and their junior partner the Lib Dems are helpless to prevent it and are guilty by association. No one doubts that because of the crash things were going to get hard.. whatever government was elected at the last election...but ny no stretch of the imagination are we broadly where we were at the time of that election.. we are a very different place indeed...

In general I agree with u regarding the situation regarding the major UK parties (and most of the minor ones) regarding lgbt issues in general and same sex marriage in particular.. however I have not heard Cameron lambast the Church.. he has defended his corner certainly, but lambast is maybe a little strong... and most but not all of his Tory colleagues in the cabinet and probably most of his MPs support him... but it is questionable whether that can be said to be the case in his party in the constituencies.. there remains grave disquiet about the Cameron line and it won't take much for it to boil over and for the Cameron line to be overturned.

We vote for Government not a President... but it is not MPs who choose who will be Prime Minister..that prerogative is that of the Monarch only. Normally she will send for the parliamentary leader of the largest party after an election (elected from among MPs in different ways by different parties but generally with some form of party membership vote) and ask him or her to form a government or his or her replacement if in mid term. parliament can defeat that individual in a vote of the house thus forcing another election should no other leader be able to form a government but it does not choose him or her... only the queen has that prerogative.. technically she can refuse any leader even if he or she has a huge majority but this would cause a constitutional crisis and there would be hell to pay.. potentially undermining the monarch as much as parliament if not the monarchy itself.

You are right that politics in the UK are not as they are in the US..our systems are different but there are sufficient similarities between both the systems and the two countries politics, economics and social policies that we can make comparisons. certainly political parties do and that is why generally the Conservatives are often active in assisting and supporting the Republicans behind the scenes and the Labour Party the Democrats and vice versa but all are careful about being seen to interfere with the internal politics of each other's countries.. whether or not what they do at such times can be said to avoid this is quite another matter.. Labour and the Democrats in fact consider each other almost as sister parties. Bill Clinton for instance addressed the Labour Party annual conference in his time as President. We cannot make exact comparisons in politics or policy.. but they can and are made in a rough manner.. by those on both sides of the Atlantic.

Romney may be the butt of all jokes now.. but that may not always be the case... a cursory reading of Reagan as President tells us that he too was the butt of all jokes in the UK, and still is especially among my parents generation, but his relationship with Thatcher made him a serious and dangerous joke as increasingly their policies and philosophies moved closer to each other and each influenced the other into moving ever more to right throughout their common terms of office and many of the very worst although not all of our present problems stem from that time. I have no doubt whatsoever that if Romney wins, and should this country suffer such misfortune as to have Cameron elected with a majority at the next election in this country that their politics, economics and social policy thoughts are sufficiently similar that it is all too possible that they will be Reagan/Thatcher mark 2.

[IanBorthwick]

Just a thought this morning...


9439

9440

Just some things the Reich Wing can't be bothered with.

[tenni]

I just read someone's post on Facebook that pointed out that Obama & Romney hold the same position on issues of war, bailouts, corporationism, federal reserve, deficit spending, Patriot Act, and War of Drugs or did in the past.

[Annika L]

I just read someone's post on Facebook that pointed out that Obama & Romney hold the same position on issues of war, bailouts, corporationism, federal reserve, deficit spending, Patriot Act, and War of Drugs or did in the past.

Hard to find a position Romney *didn't* hold at some point in the past. :tongue:

[IanBorthwick]

Hard to find a position Romney *didn't* hold at some point in the past. :tongue:

Amen, and the Grand Flip Flopper will hold those positions only so long as he thinks he has a chance to win. it's what I have been putting up in my posts, Tenni. Please pay attention to them. You, and many others, may WISH I made less sense or were more polite about issues where people lie(to themselves or others or both) and I will shut them down, but in politics I find there is no way to disabuse someone MILDLY when what they want to believe is pure bullshit based on people making a lie grow. WHether it was Fox News with the pipeline making Jobs(the count started at 1000 and ended up at 10 million) and all the oil being sold in the US to help our Oil needs(also bullshit because all the oil was earmarked by Canada for sale to Europe and South America, hence why the pipelines needed to be in the gulf of Mexico), to the Amazing Obama Goes to India Bullshit Campaign started by...you guessed it, Fox News, costing 200 Million dollars a day in the last instance sputtering by Michelle Bachmann who got it from Fox news when it was just supposed to be 10s of Millions of dollars.

The entire whitewash that "Both Candidates are the Same" is hokum and has been repeatedly splattered like bug guts on a speeding Ferrari. It has no basis in fact and waters down the content by spreading bullshit.

"I just read someone's post on Facebook that pointed out that Obama & Romney hold the same position on..."

AND? Really, And? Most Urban Legends start this way around a campfire or in a school hallway, you do realize...right? Because you can find all kinds of crazy shit on FaceBook, and it's all opinion based. DOn't believe me?

https://www.facebook.com/ufoarereal.kj?fref=ts ALiens Are Real

https://www.facebook.com/groups/182283168479664/?fref=ts George Bush is a Nazi

https://www.facebook.com/groups/366744570038085/?fref=ts Bigfoot is Real


https://www.facebook.com/pages/Alchemy-is-real-and-all-is-Silver-and-Gold/213336585464166?fref=ts You CAN make lead into Gold through ALCHEMY!

https://www.facebook.com/pages/God-hates-America/110953778928416?ref=ts&fref=ts&rf=114935195189615 Got Hates Canada as much as the LGBT community.


I hope this was not too disturbing, but there is no nicer way to say this.

[DuckiesDarling]

Saw the best pics the other day... wish I could find them. One was for males, one for females. Just a wedding pic of two people holding hands dressed up... said "Dear friends who are voting for Romney... I can't invite you to a wedding I won't be allowed to have"

[gladius]

Amen, and the Grand Flip Flopper will hold those positions only so long as he thinks he has a chance to win. it's what I have been putting up in my posts, Tenni. Please pay attention to them. You, and many others, may WISH I made less sense or were more polite about issues where people lie(to themselves or others or both) and I will shut them down, but in politics I find there is no way to disabuse someone MILDLY when what they want to believe is pure bullshit based on people making a lie grow. WHether it was Fox News with the pipeline making Jobs(the count started at 1000 and ended up at 10 million) and all the oil being sold in the US to help our Oil needs(also bullshit because all the oil was earmarked by Canada for sale to Europe and South America, hence why the pipelines needed to be in the gulf of Mexico), to the Amazing Obama Goes to India Bullshit Campaign started by...you guessed it, Fox News, costing 200 Million dollars a day in the last instance sputtering by Michelle Bachmann who got it from Fox news when it was just supposed to be 10s of Millions of dollars.

The entire whitewash that "Both Candidates are the Same" is hokum and has been repeatedly splattered like bug guts on a speeding Ferrari. It has no basis in fact and waters down the content by spreading bullshit.

"I just read someone's post on Facebook that pointed out that Obama & Romney hold the same position on..."

AND? Really, And? Most Urban Legends start this way around a campfire or in a school hallway, you do realize...right? Because you can find all kinds of crazy shit on FaceBook, and it's all opinion based. DOn't believe me?

https://www.facebook.com/ufoarereal.kj?fref=ts ALiens Are Real

https://www.facebook.com/groups/182283168479664/?fref=ts George Bush is a Nazi

https://www.facebook.com/groups/366744570038085/?fref=ts Bigfoot is Real


https://www.facebook.com/pages/Alchemy-is-real-and-all-is-Silver-and-Gold/213336585464166?fref=ts You CAN make lead into Gold through ALCHEMY!

https://www.facebook.com/pages/God-hates-America/110953778928416?ref=ts&fref=ts&rf=114935195189615 Got Hates Canada as much as the LGBT community.


I hope this was not too disturbing, but there is no nicer way to say this.

In other words, Tenni, you're an idiot also. We're all idiots, only Ian has an unblemished view of the political landscape.

[Annika L]

*smile* I truly would love to see a record of number of new accounts spawned in the past 2 weeks (against the numbers spawned in previous weeks).

[IanBorthwick]

In other words, Tenni, you're an idiot also. We're all idiots, only Ian has an unblemished view of the political landscape.

Bad troll is pathetic. We know who you are and how many accounts you made to push the Romney numbers on the Poll. No matter how many times you turn up like a bad penny....

http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/romney-hospital-visitation-for-gay-couples-are-benefits-not-rights/politics/2012/10/20/51681 Romney says "Visitation for Gay Couples are 'Benefits' Not Rights" And the say they will take them away.


http://www.examiner.com/article/report-number-of-uninsured-americans-down-to-4-year-low-due-to-obamacare Number of Uninsured at an all time low due to Obamacare.

http://www.examiner.com/article/report-multiple-ceos-and-businesses-threaten-workers-over-obama-s-re-election AT ROmney's insistence, Corporations follow his tactic and warn people NOT vote Obama if they want to keep their jobs come November 7th.

9452

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/gop-voter-registration-scandal-widens-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges ROmney backed voter supression in so many states it was spotted easily and now Proecutors are gunning for him.

http://www.classwarfareexists.com/republicans-try-to-politicize-libya-embassy-attack-accidentally-disclose-intelligence-sources/#axzz29zQDCsVC In the Tradition of Bush outing intelligence people they want disposed of, Issa and others "negelct" to protect our assets in Libya.

9453

Gladius...taking a swing at me for telling the truth is like getting pissed at the air you need to breathe to live....useless.

[gladius]

*smile* I truly would love to see a record of number of new accounts spawned in the past 2 weeks (against the numbers spawned in previous weeks).

Paranoia is now creeping in. The process of creating just this account is enough to disuade me from creating any more.

[IanBorthwick]

Paranoia is now creeping in. The process of creating just this account is enough to disuade me from creating any more.

Bad troll is still bad. Welcome to my ignore.

[Annika L]

Paranoia is now creeping in. The process of creating just this account is enough to disuade me from creating any more.

Curiosity and paranoia are two completely different things, gladius. And I certainly never suspected *you* of creating multiple accounts.

[void()]

Curiosity and paranoia are two completely different things, gladius. And I certainly never suspected *you* of creating multiple accounts.

Awareness is a third element to the equation. One of the mental health professionals asked if I were paranoid. "Do you watch the news?" "Yes. What does ..." "Aren't you?" "Point taken."

It was determined I was not paranoid, only healthily aware of situation/s.

[DiamondDog]

I can't vote in your poll. Where's the option for "I'm voting for someone who is not Democrat or Republican"? I am going to vote for Jill Stein for the green party. Yeah I know she won't win but she's the candidate I most agree with. A lot of LGBT and even heterosexuals I know are fed up with Obama, and they don't like Romney so they're voting for a 3rd party candidate instead. http://www.jillstein.org/

[biguy71]

I probably shouldn't be surprised that so many of the people on this site plan to vote for Romney considering some of the nonsense I have read in other threads, but it's still baffling to me how anyone could look at the choices in this election and make that decision. I'm no cheerleader for the Democrats, but the Republican Party has become scarier and scarier over the years.

[void()]

I can't vote in your poll. Where's the option for "I'm voting for someone who is not Democrat or Republican"? I am going to vote for Jill Stein for the green party. Yeah I know she won't win but she's the candidate I most agree with. A lot of LGBT and even heterosexuals I know are fed up with Obama, and they don't like Romney so they're voting for a 3rd party candidate instead. http://www.jillstein.org/

I watched her debate Rocky of the Justice party via Democracy Now. She seems like a Green FDR with her party's Green New Deal. I may even vote for her because she wants to abolish the Electoral College, let the elections be won by popular vote of the people. Like you though, have difficulty seeing her pull off a win. Rocky to me seemed like an independent Romney clone.

[BiJoe696]

It is a long read but seems clear to me :

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2012/10/29/121029taco_talk_editors?mobify=0

(http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2012/10/29/121029taco_talk_editors?mobify=0)A visitor to the F.D.R. Memorial, in Washington, is confronted by these words from Roosevelt’s second Inaugural Address, etched in stone: “The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide for those who have too little.”

Read more http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2012/10/29/121029taco_talk_editors#ixzz2AEMHY7vc

[IanBorthwick]

I did not write this, but it mirrors my discoveries albeit many years LATER than I.

"My entire adult life I considered myself an independent. My knowledge of politics I thought was pretty good and fairly accurate. The Democrats were big spenders, debt hogs and all around fiscally irresponsible. However, they were never to be completely dismissed because they had a heart. They may spend more but they take care of the poor. Welfare may expand under them but some people need that safety net. I believed they were soft on defense and soft on foreign policy, and therefore not as qualified in that capacity as Republicans.

Republicans, I believed were less sympathetic to the poor but were much more fiscally responsible. I thought they balanced budgets, and over all kept the house in much better order. I thought they were strong on defense and foreign policy and so believed they were, with out question, the best one’s to have in those capacities.

It wasn’t until 2008 that I became compelled to dig deeper into the paradigm of American politics. It was the year Barack Obama made national headlines by becoming the first Black American to become a serious contender for the presidency. I was still backing Hillary well into the primary but was eventually swayed toward supporting Obama. The thing that made me question and investigate the political parties was the fuming, unabridged, hate being hurled at Obama. The open racism and naked aggression was mind-blowing to me. Aside from that, there were also accusations from both sides that the other was responsible for the debt and deficits. That election became the most personal to me that I’d ever experienced. And so, with all the emotion, and hate, and dichotomous accusations I began to research. What I found during that research absolutely shocked me. I found that until then, I knew virtually nothing of the ‘real’ makeup of the political parties. For instance; Republicans weren’t this fiscally sound and prudent party; they were actually responsible for the vast majority of the debt. I previously thought they balanced budgets but found out the last two presidents to balance the budget were Democrats (Clinton, and Lyndon Johnson). -- And that no Republican had balanced a budget since Eisenhower (over fifty years). I thought welfare increased under Democrats but found out it doesn't change under either party. In fact; the only president I found to change it at all, to wean recipients off it, was Clinton – a Democrat. I thought entitlement programs were responsible for the debt but found out Reagan cut more entitlement programs than any other president and still tripled the debt, and to this day is still the only president to do so. In foreign policy I found that Democrats aren't “soft” on foreign policy, they just practice diplomacy; which means they make war a last resort instead of the first option.

This link will take you to that initial blog that I read in 2008, that blew my mind, and made me realize that all the political clichés I believed were all unfounded. I chanced across it while surfing the net and have been changed ever since. It was a starting point that compelled me to seek more and more “knowledge” about politics. --http://bunkinthewest.wordpress.com/2008/09/04/republican-democrats-national-debt-and-fiscal-responsibility/

[i_shoot_blanks]

I just voted!!! I do not particularly care for Romney and I voted AGAINST Obama.

[Annika L]

I confess that I am regretting more and more that I did not include an option to specify a preference *other* than Romney or Obama.

When I posted the poll, my interest was in figuring out who would win the election if the whole US was similar to the bisexual population (which it is NOT, I know). Since either Romney or Obama will win the election, I did not post other options (aside from leaning or indifference/undecided). But as the race has gone on and as I have read the responses here, it is clear that there is a very significant preference here for alternatives to Republicans and Democrats. I would prefer alternatives myself...I'm just not willing to chance having a dickhead in office because I voiced that preference with my vote.

So I here offer my apologies to all those who could not take part in this poll, because of my short-sightedness. I wish I'd constructed it in a way that we could have seen this fascinating dynamic expressed.

[darkeyes]

I confess that I am regretting more and more that I did not include an option to specify a preference *other* than Romney or Obama.

When I posted the poll, my interest was in figuring out who would win the election if the whole US was similar to the bisexual population (which it is NOT, I know). Since either Romney or Obama will win the election, I did not post other options (aside from leaning or indifference/undecided). But as the race has gone on and as I have read the responses here, it is clear that there is a very significant preference here for alternatives to Republicans and Democrats. I would prefer alternatives myself...I'm just not willing to chance having a dickhead in office because I voiced that preference with my vote.

So I here offer my apologies to all those who could not take part in this poll, because of my short-sightedness. I wish I'd constructed it in a way that we could have seen this fascinating dynamic expressed.
Personally Annika.. I think that your poll is bollox.. not ur fault so I'll rephrase... bolloxed.....the responses are somewhat dodgy and almost unbelievable.. allowing for the fact that the poll has been ongoing for some weeks now really what it tells us (or at least me) is that a lot of people (or just as likely a very few) are taking the proverbial piss and have rendered your poll meaningless... how do the responses of American bisexuals on this poll compare with this conducted by gallup? http://www.gallup.com/poll/158102/lgbt-americans-skew-democratic-largely-support-obama.aspx.

[fredtyg]

Even some of you Obama and Romney fans might find this piece from Reason magazine (http://reason.com/archives/2012/10/24/whos-getting-our-votes) of interest. It's the staff and writers' preferences in the Presidential election, along with who they voted for in 2000, 2004 and 2008. They also give opinions on how they feel the two candidates- Obama or Romney- stand up on various policy issues (essentially, which one would be better or worse on, for example, foreign policy). Granted, these are pretty much libertarian type folks, but some did vote for Obama in 2008 and a few aren't voting at all in this election:

[Annika L]

Personally Annika.. I think that your poll is bollox.. not ur fault so I'll rephrase... bolloxed.....the responses are somewhat dodgy and almost unbelievable.. allowing for the fact that the poll has been ongoing for some weeks now really what it tells us (or at least me) is that a lot of people (or just as likely a very few) are taking the proverbial piss and have rendered your poll meaningless... how do the responses of American bisexuals on this poll compare with this conducted by gallup? http://www.gallup.com/poll/158102/lgbt-americans-skew-democratic-largely-support-obama.aspx.

I'm with you on this Fran...I am under no illusions whatsoever as to the statistical validity (or lack thereof) of this poll (or any on this site). There is a slight chance that the numbers truly reflect the attitudes of members on this site. But in either case, it is information...under the circumstances, information which must be interpreted very delicately; but information, nontheless. And I believe that if I'd given options other than Obama and Romney, there would be more information still (also to be interpreted delicately).

I only hope that everybody on the site takes this as added incentive to cast their vote when the time comes.

[void()]

I confess that I am regretting more and more that I did not include an option to specify a preference *other* than Romney or Obama.

When I posted the poll, my interest was in figuring out who would win the election if the whole US was similar to the bisexual population (which it is NOT, I know). Since either Romney or Obama will win the election, I did not post other options (aside from leaning or indifference/undecided). But as the race has gone on and as I have read the responses here, it is clear that there is a very significant preference here for alternatives to Republicans and Democrats. I would prefer alternatives myself...I'm just not willing to chance having a dickhead in office because I voiced that preference with my vote.

So I here offer my apologies to all those who could not take part in this poll, because of my short-sightedness. I wish I'd constructed it in a way that we could have seen this fascinating dynamic expressed.

*hugs because friends understand being human* Saul Good, girl. You asked us something valid, forgot there might be three or twenty different answers. Big deal I often forget my wife wants one specific answer when asking me what we want for supper. My normal reply is "food", which is no good due to leaving the choice still wide open. She wants me to say a specific type or dish of food. To me it doesn't much matter, food is fuel, is food.

Although, must say she makes up some damn good meat woaf & Sheppard's pie, which oddly are something of my fav o rite dishes, along with good gumbo of course.

[The Young Pretender]

Personally Annika.. I think that your poll is bollox.. not ur fault so I'll rephrase... bolloxed.....the responses are somewhat dodgy and almost unbelievable.. allowing for the fact that the poll has been ongoing for some weeks now really what it tells us (or at least me) is that a lot of people (or just as likely a very few) are taking the proverbial piss and have rendered your poll meaningless... how do the responses of American bisexuals on this poll compare with this conducted by gallup? http://www.gallup.com/poll/158102/lgbt-americans-skew-democratic-largely-support-obama.aspx.

Again, I'll chirp and express my wonderment. LGBT supporting Romney is like a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders, or as Bill Maher described gay Republicans, "Jews for Hitler."

[BiBedBud]

ATTENTION ALL AMERICAN (Citizens of the United States of America)

I am Canadian, and since the Carter administration, I have been paying very close attention to "American" politics (I put quotes around "American", because I am not referring to the entirety of two continents, as the word "American" suggests to me). For as long as I can remember, I have laughed at the notion that "the world's greatest democracy" has only two political parties, both of which argee on far too many things to be reasonable.

I want to amend that low opinion forthwith. I was wrong. There are actually more than two closely-resembling political parties in the United States -- it's just that the elite/oligarchy shuts-out any other potential "third party", leaving the USA with two shoddy choices.

The strength of this "truth embargo" is so great, that even though there was a debate for the "third-party" candidates just two days ago; no "American" broadcast news outlet covered the event, held in Chicago and moderated by Larry King; and the day afterward, there was absolutely no mention that it even occured, from what I could see, surfing CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, etc.; American broadcasters BOYCOTTED the debate. The only two news outlets to cover it were (my fav) Al Jazeera and Russian TV, both of which covered it LIVE, in its entirety of 90+ minutes.

If you are an "American" (Citizen of the USA), you MUST take the time to watch this third-party debate, if you value your freedom.

The debate was hosted by "Free and Equal" http://freeandequal.org/

You can see it on Youtube here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0vE5CTTSFI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0vE5CTTSFI

It is also available on C-SPAN here http://www.c-span.org/Events/Third-Party-Presidential-Debate/10737435220-1/

SPECIAL NOTE: If you watch the Youtube version, at 1 hour, 40 minutes and 7 seconds, Larry King asks the question "What constitutional ammendment would you advance?" and the first to answer was Mr. Rocky Anderson of the "Justice Party" who proclaims he's already written the amendment, available on his website, that would for evermore end any basis for discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity.

[BiBedBud]

^^^^^^Correction, the time reference I should have provided in the "SPECIAL NOTE" at the end is 1 hour, 7 minutes and 40 seconds.

Sorry for the confusion.

BiBedBud

[BiJoe696]

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/s480x480/400265_364694256953376_149634316_n.jpg
(http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=364694256953376&set=a.135440809878723.31061.135432559879548&type=1&ref=nf)

[IanBorthwick]

Thought I'd add this into the Mix. Just as happened with OUR vote up top, the Republicans have been stealing the votes through tampering with machines as far back as 2000.


http://www.ukprogressive.co.uk/breaking-retired-nsa-analyst-proves-gop-is-stealing-elections/article20598.html#.UImSAgo5KH8.twitter

The national trend against conservatives and their brand of insanity has been growing for ages, but machine tampering has kept pace to alter the visual outcomes. Along with broad media spinning, we're presented with the case that conservative regression is still in full force...except, it's not.

[gladius]

Thought I'd add this into the Mix. Just as happened with OUR vote up top, the Republicans have been stealing the votes through tampering with machines as far back as 2000.


http://www.ukprogressive.co.uk/breaking-retired-nsa-analyst-proves-gop-is-stealing-elections/article20598.html#.UImSAgo5KH8.twitter

The national trend against conservatives and their brand of insanity has been growing for ages, but machine tampering has kept pace to alter the visual outcomes. Along with broad media spinning, we're presented with the case that conservative regression is still in full force...except, it's not.

All it takes is ONE, to kill off what was a good frosty debate.

[IanBorthwick]

All it takes is ONE, to kill off what was a good frosty debate.

Yes, the truth DOES have a way of stopping you Log Cabin Republicans from being able to step over reality and into the realm of Bullshit Mountain.

[gladius]

On the eve of the most important election in American history, I would hope that all will act accordingly, to whomever the People vote in tomorrow. If it is President Obama, then I will be loyal opposition. If it is Gov. Romney, then I would ask God to give him the same blessing as He gave President Obama.

[sparkmaster69]

:2cents:9855
Pretty
much says it all

[fredtyg]

On the eve of the most important election in American history.

Sorry to be the stick in the mud here, but I've been hearing "...this is the most important election..", or variations of it, for at least 20 years now.

[gladius]

:2cents:9855
Pretty
much says it all

That's not only disgusting, but totally inapproporiate.

[sparkmaster69]

One for the ladies 9856

[gladius]

Sorry to be the stick in the mud here, but I've been hearing "...this is the most important election..", or variations of it, for at least 20 years now.

Are you twenty years old?

[gladius]

One for the ladies 9856

Again, disgusting and inapproporiate.

[sparkmaster69]

9857
Romney Wouldn't no the truth if it smacked him upside the head!:yikes2:

[sparkmaster69]

9858 :bigrin::bigrin::bigrin:

[gladius]

Now you're just be a trolling idiot.

[IanBorthwick]

Now you're just be a trolling idiot.

This and all the sputtering how the truth is insulting is the purview and means to duck and run of the Conservatives. First, the truth is not an insult, it's the truth. Second, if you take offense to it, you're whining. Political satire is part of the 1st Amendment, and a basic right as well as a needed way to point out shortcomings of those in politics...

And if you don't like it, you know you can always look somewhere else. Censorship has almost exclusively been a Conservative tactic. I said ALMOST, so don't jump at me for Tipper Gore, we still laugh at her stupidity with video games and music, but hey...all we got out of that was Ratings not removal, which had it been a right winger.....who knows.

By they way, Gladius, shaming tactics do not work here. I said it before. Impugning the poster's age shows you lack in critical thinking and used a:


Charge of Puerility (Code Green) – The Peter Pan ChargeDiscussion: The target is accused of being immature and/or irresponsible in some manner that reflects badly on his status as an adult male. Examples:

“Grow up!”
“You are so immature!”
“Do you live with your mother?”


CLASSIC! Right out of the Feminist Attack Manual. I bet that makes you VERY happy.

[IanBorthwick]

And don't forget! Conservatives think STORMS have a "Liberal Bias"....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iziNZv6PHw0&feature=colike


WHy I'm Voting for Mitt Romney....


http://youtu.be/RPrLoF14rOU

[darkeyes]

People are so entrenched in their own ideology that they can't have a discussion with one who may differ. The word 'argue' does not mean to combat the other, but rather to discuss your point.


I think I should have said that to argue doesn't mean to hack each other to death.

To "argue" does mean to discuss or debate a point or issue by using reason and justification.. is that what ur doing do u think in ur responses to Sparkmaster, Glad? Pretty desperate stuff don't u think? U don't have to take notice of what I say.. I'm not American.. but thinking Americans will of what u say and I suspect find it a little lacking in merit and certainly in argument...

[gladius]

To "argue" does mean to discuss or debate a point or issue by using reason and justification.. is that what ur doing do u think in ur responses to Sparkmaster, Glad? Pretty desperate stuff don't u think? U don't have to take notice of what I say.. I'm not American.. but thinking Americans will of what u say and I suspect find it a little lacking in merit and certainly in argument...

I did not say that on this thread. Not to mention, you seem to push your agenda with some kind of impunity.

[sparkmaster69]

What's inappropriate about it? It's what would happen if the republicans had their way, these people are way out there. This republican party ain't the party of Teddy or Ike these people are BATSHIT CRAZY! then there's Romney who changes his position from one rally to the other to pander to the crowd.My God the maa pathelogical liar.


It's like he has a case of

[gladius]

You're a little man who needed to blurt, after he got a membership to talk shit.

[darkeyes]

I did not say that on this thread. Not to mention, you seem to push your agenda with some kind of impunity.
The words we use in all sorts of places can come back to haunt us... it is a common enough debating technique and an appropriate one. I suggest if u dont want hoist by ur own petard u switch ur brain in gear before u utter a word... and if I push what agenda I have with impunity, it is because this thread was made open by the OP to non Americans on a site open to non Americans and a site which is also if I may add,.non American itself, but also because we have do we not, freedom of thought and speech? So I speak as I find.. if ur uncomfortable with that.. tuff titty...

[DuckiesDarling]

Voted today for Obama, proud to say that and I really really hope he gets another term.

[gladius]

Voted for Mitt Romney, and tomorrow will be a better day.

[Annika L]

You're a little man who needed to blurt, after he got a membership to talk shit.

You need a membership to talk shit?? Where's your card?

[pepperjack]

Voted for Mitt Romney, and tomorrow will be a better day.


Amen! :cool:

[DuckiesDarling]

Amen! :cool:

really amazing that you say Amen to a statement about Romney... considering he thinks all of you (LGBT) are the devil. Glad to see you care so much about your own rights.. guess the rest of us should just stop caring too.

[pepperjack]

really amazing that you say Amen to a statement about Romney... considering he thinks all of you (LGBT) are the devil. Glad to see you care so much about your own rights.. guess the rest of us should just stop caring too.

I made my stance here obvious long ago and you've also made yours, namely that you've been brainwashed by the ad hominem propaganda/attacks against a good man! I referred to Obama during the 2008 campaign as a " silver-tongued-devil" & the past four years have proved me right! It's now common knowledge that he's full of hot air.....he talks the talk but can't walk the walk. And my life has become increasingly harder under his so-called leadership during that time! And I'm smack in the middle of that blue-collar middle class that's supposed to "grow that economy out..." according to him! Btw....just exercised one of my rights. Weird that you would interpret my freedom of opinion/speech as not caring.

[IanBorthwick]

I made my stance here obvious long ago and you've also made yours, namely that you've been brainwashed by the ad hominem propaganda/attacks against a good man! I referred to Obama during the 2008 campaign as a " silver-tongued-devil" & the past four years have proved me right! It's now common knowledge that he's full of hot air.....he talks the talk but can't walk the walk. And my life has become increasingly harder under his so-called leadership during that time! And I'm smack in the middle of that blue-collar middle class that's supposed to "grow that economy out..." according to him! Btw....just exercised one of my rights. Weird that you would interpret my freedom of opinion/speech as not caring.

There's that Romnesia in action. Can't remember that he hates LGBT? Can't remember that he hates YOU? Can't remember that ROmney is the one shipping jobs overseas Mr Blue Collar? Can't remember the obstructionist Republican Agenda in the House? Can't remember Karl Rove's Demand for a No New Taxes onthe Rich but the rest of us are open Season? Can't remember real life? Well we know you're living somewhere we've all seen in the Cognitive Dissonance of the Right....it's called...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIrAEp8-Ft0&feature=colike

Vote for whomever you like, Hoss, it's YOUR right. But it's not your right to plead a case for Bullshit.

[void()]

Btw....just exercised one of my rights. Weird that you would interpret my freedom of opinion/speech as not caring.

No weirder than you interpreting my lack of religion as disgusting, hypocritical, uncaring, callous, inhumane. Which, by the way, it is my right to not have a religion. Also my right to have and voice an opinion as well. I think all you religious fanatics need to do the rest of us a huge favor and finishing killing one another off, we can then be granted peace because without religious fanaticism a whole lot of hate would vanish.

[DuckiesDarling]

Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooot Obama wins.. my faith in the American public is restored. They saw beyond the color of a man's skin and the lies spewed by the opponent and voted on the real issues.

[Annika L]

..., and tomorrow will be a better day.

A *much* better day!!

I cannot express how relieved I am at the outcome of this election! A shred of my faith in the American people has been restored.

Amen indeed.

[pepperjack]

There's that Romnesia in action. Can't remember that he hates LGBT? Can't remember that he hates YOU? Can't remember that ROmney is the one shipping jobs overseas Mr Blue Collar? Can't remember the obstructionist Republican Agenda in the House? Can't remember Karl Rove's Demand for a No New Taxes onthe Rich but the rest of us are open Season? Can't remember real life? Well we know you're living somewhere we've all seen in the Cognitive Dissonance of the Right....it's called...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIrAEp8-Ft0&feature=colike

Vote for whomever you like, Hoss, it's YOUR right. But it's not your right to plead a case for Bullshit.

Why not? You do whenever you post here.

[pepperjack]

No weirder than you interpreting my lack of religion as disgusting, hypocritical, uncaring, callous, inhumane. Which, by the way, it is my right to not have a religion. Also my right to have and voice an opinion as well. I think all you religious fanatics need to do the rest of us a huge favor and finishing killing one another off, we can then be granted peace because without religious fanaticism a whole lot of hate would vanish.

There you go again with your distortions! So typical. You'll always figure out a way to justify your inconsistencies. I said I was disgusted with what appeared to me as blatant hypocrisy on your part. Uncaring, callous & inhumane are your words. It's not your lack of religion but obvious phoniness I'm turned off by. Speaking of hate, you're the one who consistently gets bent out of shape, flies off the handle, indulges in self-pity the second he feels the least bit slighted.

[void()]

There you go again with your distortions! So typical. You'll always figure out a way to justify your inconsistencies. I said I was disgusted with what appeared to me as blatant hypocrisy on your part. Uncaring, callous & inhumane are your words. It's not your lack of religion but obvious phoniness I'm turned off by. Speaking of hate, you're the one who consistently gets bent out of shape, flies off the handle, indulges in self-pity the second he feels the least bit slighted.

Sorry, expressing an opinion is 'flying off the handle' now? I do not need to distort much, if at all really.
I read those other things in the tone of what you have said in the past. What is phony in being human?

[darkeyes]

Woke up this morning and it was a relief.. tinged with concern cos with the House still in Republican hands and still determined to be bloody minded and forgetting they are there to help govern not much has changed.. but it could have been so much worse.. we from outside of the US are simply relieved... not a lot of hope for anything better but a lot that at least now things wont get very much worse... but who can tell what the future holds? We may yet be surprised...

Brighter notes.. Tammy Baldwin and 3 states voting for same sex marriage tho Minnesota seem to be going the other way..... 2 states vote to legalise cannabis... I suspect lawyers will be hard at work over at least some these votes..

..and as for Annika's poll which after all was the purpose of this thread... did u bunch of twats who voted umpteen times with umpteen ID's honestly think that the bisexual community would vote for Romney in the numbers that the poll suggests and that by twisting it out of kilter it would change anything? Daft buggers..:eek2:

[darkeyes]

Brighter notes.. Tammy Baldwin and 3 states voting for same sex marriage tho Minnesota seem to be going the other way.....
Seems my info was wrong 'bout Minnesota.. even better...:bigrin:

..and dontcha think this will just make Glad's heart sing and be.. well.. errrr glad...http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/07/obama-win-matched-advances-progressive-democrats.. am not gloating honest... much 2 relieved 2 gloat.. but there are so many nice lil titbits thrown up by these elections that I find it bloody quite engrossing..

[Sensualhunter]

It is a wonderful day to be an American. I am so proud of us, Ok most of us ;)

Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[IanBorthwick]

Why not? You do whenever you post here.

And that is the PeeWee Herman response,"I know you are, but what am I?" Very nice. I'm so wounded...I may not be able to respond. LOL.

Accusation does not equal guilt, where I proved you're so full of IT and YOURSELF you are steamed, but no facts forthcoming other than your opinions are better than my facts that have been vetted by fact Checkers. Good. Be steamed, Hoss. But that doesn't change your Fail, does it?

LOL

[IanBorthwick]

did u bunch of twats who voted umpteen times with umpteen ID's honestly think that the bisexual community would vote for Romney in the numbers that the poll suggests and that by twisting it out of kilter it would change anything? Daft buggers..:eek2:

And don't forget who it was that pointed this out...some time ago...:rolleyes:

[IanBorthwick]

Seems my info was wrong 'bout Minnesota.. even better...:bigrin:

..and dontcha think this will just make Glad's heart sing and be.. well.. errrr glad...http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/07/obama-win-matched-advances-progressive-democrats.. am not gloating honest... much 2 relieved 2 gloat.. but there are so many nice lil titbits thrown up by these elections that I find it bloody quite engrossing..

No no...gloat, please. I encourage it in this instance. Dance, too. We're all allowed to piss on the grave of revisionistic views of marriage and "tradition" that was manufactured for the 20th Century. It's dying and we all get to toss some ammonia on the damn thing's grave if we want.

Of course, this may "upset" the Lincoln Logs in our presence who went through all that trouble to create fake accounts to skew the votes.....

[DuckiesDarling]

I'm just very thankful that the candidate I supported was re-elected, but I hope that from this moment forward we get on with the business of actually working together to get this great country back on her feet and strengthen our economy. I'm thankful that the two Republicans who made such offensive comments regarding rape and God's will that someone become pregnant or that a woman's body would fight off the seeds of "legitimate rape" were booted out of office hardcore. I'm thankful that a few independents were re elected and I'm thankful most of all that despite the hardship of so many disenfranchised famillies of Sandy, America turned out to vote and waited in long lines. Still fewer than 2008 but they did stand in very long queues this time. I'm thankful that there were only a few election hiccups including a famous one where a machine in Pennsylvania took a vote for Obama and turned into a vote for Romney. But most of all I'm thankful that the elections are over and the robocalls and emails and mass mailings will stop. :2cents:

[pepperjack]

And that is the PeeWee Herman response,"I know you are, but what am I?" Very nice. I'm so wounded...I may not be able to respond. LOL.

Accusation does not equal guilt, where I proved you're so full of IT and YOURSELF you are steamed, but no facts forthcoming other than your opinions are better than my facts that have been vetted by fact Checkers. Good. Be steamed, Hoss. But that doesn't change your Fail, does it?

LOL

Speaking of " accusation, " that's all your stupid diatribe disguised as fact is. I'm supposed to believe that Mitt Romney hates ME? That card gets played about as much as the race card nowadays. The only thing you managed to prove was my point about ad hominem attacks because you illustrated them perfectly and you did so with the trite expressions of Romnesia & LOL. How easy it is for a pseudointellectual pissant to jump on a bandwagon guided by a demagogue.

[Brian]

The election of Tammy Baldwin is huge! Who could have imagined the election of an openly gay woman to US Senate? It is huge.

- Drew :paw:

[Sensualhunter]

The election of Tammy Baldwin is huge! Who could have imagined the election of an openly gay woman to US Senate? It is huge.

- Drew http://www.bisexual.com/forum/images/smilies/pawprint.gif

That is great Drew! Also Elizabeth Warren is a big one too! :)


jump on a bandwagon guided by a demagogue.
:rolleyes:

pepperjack, lighten up. You lost... Just sayin'

And, come on, ya gotta admit "Romnesia" was a pretty good one and accurate to boot :shades:

[pepperjack]

That is great Drew! Also Elizabeth Warren is a big one too! :)


:rolleyes:

pepperjack, lighten up. You lost... Just sayin'

And, come on, ya gotta admit "Romnesia" was a pretty good one and accurate to boot :shades:

Yeah, sorry,forgot,that's the American mentality....you either win or lose....there's never anything in between, like reality..... Romnesia, like all trite phrases to begin with,was clever,just like NoBamaNation,which did not garner same attention; wonder why.

[pepperjack]

Sorry, expressing an opinion is 'flying off the handle' now? I do not need to distort much, if at all really.
I read those other things in the tone of what you have said in the past. What is phony in being human?


Why don't you just go back to posting stupid, nonsensical blogs that no one ever comments on except you? You're an absolute joke with a lousy punchline!

[darkeyes]

Yeah, sorry,forgot,that's the American mentality....you either win or lose....there's never anything in between, like reality..... Romnesia, like all trite phrases to begin with,was clever,just like NoBamaNation,which did not garner same attention; wonder why.Because it's much less clever for one thing and much less snappy... but reality is sinking in now methinks.. and not long to deal with it or we all suffer... and people wonder why non-Americans are so concerned with ur politics...:eek2: Ur team is lucky, Pepper, non-Americans don't have vote... u'd get nowt out of the left or centre, and even huge swathes of the right would vote against the Republicans... such is how in touch with reality most of Republican political, social and economic ideology is....:eek2:

[void()]

Why don't you just go back to posting stupid, nonsensical blogs that no one ever comments on except you? You're an absolute joke with a lousy punchline!

I can express my opinion freely the same as you, thanks, and however I choose to do that is my choice as well. No one needs to agree with my opinion, or anyone's inclusive of yours. Why don't you grow up, stop being insecure and realize you're not the center of the universe? Oh that's correct, you're unable due to lack of maturity and intellect. Sorry life is unfair like that.

[pepperjack]

Because it's much less clever for one thing and much less snappy... but reality is sinking in now methinks.. and not long to deal with it or we all suffer... and people wonder why non-Americans are so concerned with ur politics...:eek2: Ur team is lucky, Pepper, non-Americans don't have vote... u'd get nowt out of the left or centre, and even huge swathes of the right would vote against the Republicans... such is how in touch with reality most of Republican political, social and economic ideology is....:eek2:

You're right about reality......and it's going to wind up biting a lot of people in the ass ( a popular expression here in case you don't know ) and then the instinctive reaction will be that perfect 20/20 hindsight becoming activated.:rolleyes:

[void()]

Why don't you just go back to posting stupid, nonsensical blogs that no one ever comments on except you? You're an absolute joke with a lousy punchline!

If no one comments on my blog posts it does not mean they are useless, or nonsensical. I have a brief list of web sites you can look at to gain better context of some of my recent posts. Linux (https://www.linux.com/) , Nix Craft (http://www.cyberciti.biz/) , Debian (http://debian.org/) , Commandlinefu (http://www.commandlinefu.com/commands/browse) are the sites you can explore to gain more context of recent blog posts.

I like fooling around with computers as a hobby. I do a marginal amount of programming, enough so that to me most programming languages like most Linux distributions all seem the same, C. Have discussed that with other folks whom seem to agree.

This is an interest I have beyond sex. I am a bisexual human being. Sex does not define me, nor does this interest. I define myself. From the example sites listed, pretty clear many others share an interest in computing. This is a web site I visit on my computer.

Now smart phones can browse the web, too. Is that not a kick in the head? Enough power to launch all out nuclear war in the palm of my hand! I figured since other folks use computers, phones, programming to get here too some might be interested in some stuff I do.

Computing is not all I discuss in my blog posts either. And by the by, you yourself have commented on my posts. Wow, that's pretty weird as a way to discredit my posts. Seems like you called yourself stupid, too. Okay, if you want to do that, it's up to you.

The real joke here is you.


Apologies for a second posting in response. I was not completely finished in thinking about your original post to me. In the course of the day a lot comes into my mind. I was just flat out lost in various thoughts yesterday. That's part of being human, too. Folks get occupied.

[darkeyes]

You're right about reality......and it's going to wind up biting a lot of people in the ass ( a popular expression here in case you don't know ) and then the instinctive reaction will be that perfect 20/20 hindsight becoming activated.:rolleyes:
..the word is arse... a donkey is an ass... u want to bite a donkey on arse thats up 2 u.. will report u 2 the SSP.. ooops whatever ur equivelant of SSPCA is.. just cos u can't roll ya r's rite.;)..

...and it is already quite plain who is gonna primarily b responsible if the world''s economy goes belly up again, Pepper.... nowt 2 do with hindsight whatever... it was quite plain even before the election took place who would be responsible if the result which happened happened...

[Vatnos]

I'm very surprised Romney won the poll here. I would think the politics on a bi site would be very left-leaning. What's up with that?

Feeling pretty good about the way Tuesday turned out. A close, but decisive victory for Obama, three states legalizing same-sex marriage, two states legalizing marijuana, Elizabeth Warren getting into the Senate, Todd Akin getting booted. I'm not thrilled with my own state, but nationally things went the way I was hoping.

[darkeyes]

I'm very surprised Romney won the poll here. I would think the politics on a bi site would be very left-leaning. What's up with that?

Trolls, smart arses, multi ID's most likely... read the rest of the thread u will get the gist...:)

[IanBorthwick]

Speaking of " accusation, " that's all your stupid diatribe disguised as fact is. I'm supposed to believe that Mitt Romney hates ME? That card gets played about as much as the race card nowadays. The only thing you managed to prove was my point about ad hominem attacks because you illustrated them perfectly and you did so with the trite expressions of Romnesia & LOL. How easy it is for a pseudointellectual pissant to jump on a bandwagon guided by a demagogue.

Ah yes. Trying to turn it back on me without any evidence again. Tell you what. It's a big world. YOu can live in the one you've invented, complete with made up things like Mitt Romney loves LGBT and I'll live here in the real world. And there you can stay, decrying people tearing you apart when you are the one doing so to others...and first I might add. Because to you, truth is insult, your opinions have more weight than facts and oOz is over the rainbow.

Now I'll stop feeding the troll and put him on ignore and let him enjoy his little echo chamber.

[pepperjack]

Ah yes. Trying to turn it back on me without any evidence again. Tell you what. It's a big world. YOu can live in the one you've invented, complete with made up things like Mitt Romney loves LGBT and I'll live here in the real world. And there you can stay, decrying people tearing you apart when you are the one doing so to others...and first I might add. Because to you, truth is insult, your opinions have more weight than facts and oOz is over the rainbow.

Now I'll stop feeding the troll and put him on ignore and let him enjoy his little echo chamber.

Ho, hum;:rolleyes: Yadda, yadda, yadda.....:impleased

[Annika L]

Hey you two...get a room! :tongue:

[pepperjack]

If no one comments on my blog posts it does not mean they are useless, or nonsensical. I have a brief list of web sites you can look at to gain better context of some of my recent posts. Linux (https://www.linux.com/) , Nix Craft (http://www.cyberciti.biz/) , Debian (http://debian.org/) , Commandlinefu (http://www.commandlinefu.com/commands/browse) are the sites you can explore to gain more context of recent blog posts.

I like fooling around with computers as a hobby. I do a marginal amount of programming, enough so that to me most programming languages like most Linux distributions all seem the same, C. Have discussed that with other folks whom seem to agree.

This is an interest I have beyond sex. I am a bisexual human being. Sex does not define me, nor does this interest. I define myself. From the example sites listed, pretty clear many others share an interest in computing. This is a web site I visit on my computer.

Now smart phones can browse the web, too. Is that not a kick in the head? Enough power to launch all out nuclear war in the palm of my hand! I figured since other folks use computers, phones, programming to get here too some might be interested in some stuff I do.

Computing is not all I discuss in my blog posts either. And by the by, you yourself have commented on my posts. Wow, that's pretty weird as a way to discredit my posts. Seems like you called yourself stupid, too. Okay, if you want to do that, it's up to you.

The real joke here is you.


Apologies for a second posting in response. I was not completely finished in thinking about your original post to me. In the course of the day a lot comes into my mind. I was just flat out lost in various thoughts yesterday. That's part of being human, too. Folks get occupied.


Your habitual use of " apologies " is hollow, insincere, manipulative & completely meaningless.....just as " thoughts and prayers. "

[void()]

Your habitual use of " apologies " is hollow, insincere, manipulative & completely meaningless.....just as " thoughts and prayers. "

Same can be said of conversing with you, especially meaningless, and a bit thoughtless actually. Have a nice day. :)

And yes, you've effectively been Pee Wee Herman ed now. Again, enjoy your day. :)

[pole_smoker]

Ah yes. Trying to turn it back on me without any evidence again. Tell you what. It's a big world. YOu can live in the one you've invented, complete with made up things like Mitt Romney loves LGBT and I'll live here in the real world. And there you can stay, decrying people tearing you apart when you are the one doing so to others...and first I might add. Because to you, truth is insult, your opinions have more weight than facts and oOz is over the rainbow.

Now I'll stop feeding the troll and put him on ignore and let him enjoy his little echo chamber.
Indeed pepperjack is a troll, and someone who is a hypocrite who has shit for brains. :smilies15

[pepperjack]

Ok, know my response is going to generate heat, but I don't give a shit. I feel vindicated! What's that expression about hindsight being perfect 20/20 vision? At times I feel glad I'm getting older, going to leave this planet in the near future.

[pepperjack]

Indeed pepperjack is a troll, and someone who is a hypocrite who has shit for brains. :smilies15

Pot,Pot,:oh: Pot....calling the kettle black!

[darkeyes]

Pot,Pot,:oh: Pot....calling the kettle black!
Welcome 2 the International Union of .com Trolls. U r in ver best of company.:love87:

[pole_smoker]

Welcome 2 the International Union of .com Trolls. U r in ver best of company.:love87:
Yes and he's a main member of that group. ;) :smilies15 :rolleyes:

[Annika L]

Hey! This is my thread, and *I* said keep it civil! ;)









(nah, just foolin'...I don't expect much from arseheads)

[tenni]

arseheads? Does the "arseholes union" know about these rebels? :)

[pepperjack]

Welcome 2 the International Union of .com Trolls. U r in ver best of company.:love87:

I know I am, Dark, with u at the top of the list! :love87: also!