The Bible, such a thick book

[holydragoon]

Hey everyone, I was watching soccer yesterday when my dad suddenly switched to the evening news. On there they showed a dabate that was goin on between the religious and homosexual representatives. Apparently it concerned whether same sex marriges should be allowed in Greece (where Im currently living). Obviously the religous guys were against it and tried to support it using the words of the bible. Anyway, after some time my dad brought up the topic again saying that he hates these people and that they have no right to speak for God. Even though he is completely agnostic, it appeared as if he had read the bible before since he said that it doesnt state in there that same sex marriges are not allowed.
Now whether my dad just made this up or not i have no clue. Have any of you guys actually read the whole thing. It would be interesting to know for a fact if its true or not. Incase i get into any arguements in the future. lol

// holydragoon

[Driver 8]

In brief, your father is right (http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_marj.htm), which is why you should always listen to your parents. (The site linked is Religious Tolerance, a nonprofit group dedicated to providing information on issues related to religion, without themselves taking a particular stance.)

It's unfortunate that the show you watched didn't include any religious representatives who support same-sex marriage - there are quite a few (http://www.iwgonline.org/marriage/). (The page linked focusses on Christian and Jewish groups, but there are, of course, many other religions that support same-sex marriage.)

[holydragoon]

thanx for the link driver. it's a good site! haha dun worry i will continue to listen to my parents;)

[arana]

Wish more people thought like your dad.

[Brian]

Oh no, don't get me started on the bible. I have a good friend who sometimes lurks on this site and it drives her crazy everytime I go off on one of my anti-religion rants. And besides I just went crazy on a company for their telemarketing practices, so I need to calm down. So I'll just answer this part of the original post:

Have any of you guys actually read the whole thing. I had it read to me as a kid, not by my parents, but believe it or not, in school(!) A bit every day - we did the whole thing by the end of the year (If I recall correctly). It was invaluable actually. Because as much as I am convinced that Christianity, Islam and Judaism are based on fiction, the fact is that they have very strongly influenced the world we live in today and some understanding of them, and the scripture on which they claim to be based, is important for understanding the world, and fighting those who would put us all under the yoke of (conservative) Christianity or Islam.

As for current sources of biblical knowledge, I am a huge fan of this site: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

- Drew :paw:

[holydragoon]

lol, my dad's just a typical example of a morally challanged person. lik in this case, even though he is strictly against people trying to use God to speak for their views, he still has a problem accepting homo/bisexuality. It's interesting to see how other people face similar situations of contradicting morals n values. dont u agree?

[Rhuth]

This topic was banned in my debate class because the arguments were inherently circular (http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html#Circulus%20in%20demonstrando). I don't know if it was banned as a competitive debate topic nationally like abortion was though.

Since humankind did not develop the concept of homosexuality until the 19th century, we have to refer to behaviors we now label as homosexual behaviors, which of course have always existed. But labeling a behavior or an inference is nebulous and subject to interpretation.

The short answer: It depends on who you ask.
Some people say there are lots of references to homosexuality in the bible (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/gay/long.htm).
Some people say there are very few references to homosexuality in the bible (http://worldpolicy.org/globalrights/sexorient/bible-gay.html).

I have tried very very hard to refrain from stepping on my :soapbox: , but I can't stand it so excuse me:
There are hundreds more references to heterosexual promiscuity, so doesn't their god think that is the bigger "threat to the family"?

Okay. Ignore that. I'm better now. Even my one sentence rant is begging the question (another way of saying circular argument). This means that neither side will ever be able to convince the other side of what god thinks of homosexuals by referring to the bible. My guess is that the argument will be resolved the same way the argument over a heliocentric universe was resolved.

[Paulb370]

i recently found that i was bisexual i come from quite a religious family even though i grew up as a atheist.
I don't take a fundementalist view on the bible (i hate it when people do that and i always have) and you are right, there are Loads of homsexual practices in the bible.
I offen clash with my religions view that you can ONLY Love/Enjoy being with a member of the opposite sex.
I like members of my own sex is that such a problem for my god or is it the people around me that find it an "abomination"
I mean after all god is love isn't he.

(Sorry about the rant guys i thinks it's just people that are the problem. the people who wrote the bible who lived 2,000 years ago and the people who use it for there own ends in todays society)

[wildangel]

I have myself read the Bible from cover to cover, although I don't claim to know what it all means. I loosely take the concepts from the Bible instead of saying "LOOK! LOOK! Hey, everybody! This what the Bible says. THIS is what we should do."

The New Testament is over 2,000 years old. The Old Testament...well, who only knows how old that is. But the script of the Bible itself has only been in circulation since 1815. I imagine that the words contained in that script has been misinterpreted and changed many times in that time. I feel that everyone should take out of the Bible what the main ideas are: Love your neighbor, don't steal, don't kill, don't covet, don't lie, don't cheat, etc etc etc. And hey, if you want to follow everything else, don't judge others for YOUR beliefs. I don't personally believe God feels we should kill murderers, discriminate against homosexuals, or cast out whores. That is something humans have put in the Bible.

Just my :2cents: !

[wildangel]

I went to eat dinner, left my rants, came back to finish, and someone beat me to my ideas. But I'm glad someone else has the same viewpoint I do!!

Thanks, Paul!!

[Paulb370]

But i still haven't told my church about me being bisexual (shows how truly open i 'am) :(
when word does get out Then i'll see how the gossip machine truly works whetehr they are truly accepting or just outright bigots

[smokey]

the notion of them debating this issue in Greece is simply too funny. Socrates and plato where are we when we need you? :tong:

[wildangel]

But i still haven't told my church about me being bisexual (shows how truly open i 'am) :(
when word does get out Then i'll see how the gossip machine truly works whetehr they are truly accepting or just outright bigots

I understand 110%. I don't think I will ever have the courage to tell my family and my church, which is why I'm trying to find another church ;) But I've told all of my friends, save one. This one would accept it and still love me, but I don't think our friendship would ever be the same. And I decided that I valued her friendship more than my ever being completely out.

As long as you're comfortable with yourself, Paul, that's all that will ever matter!!

[Driver 8]

The short answer: It depends on who you ask.
But you're asking a different question, Rhuth. Yes, there are debated verses about homosexuality - but there's nothing specifically addressing same-sex marriage. (People of course disagree about whether that means "The Bible never says it's okay" or "The Bible never says it's not okay.")

[JohnnyV]

But you're asking a different question, Rhuth. Yes, there are debated verses about homosexuality - but there's nothing specifically addressing same-sex marriage. (People of course disagree about whether that means "The Bible never says it's okay" or "The Bible never says it's not okay.")

:soapbox:

When I have taught the Bible as literature to college students, I usually analyze the vow between David and Jonathan, in 1 Samuel, as bearing some interesting resemblances to a marriage. They ritualize their bond with kisses and make a promise to fuse their houses together. Later David adopts Jonathan's handicapped son.

Also, in the Book of Ruth, Naomi and Ruth are both widowed but Ruth delivers an oath, in which she promises to cleave to Naomi as one, almost echoing the famous lines in Genesis about Adam and Eve. I also ask students to consider that passage.

Because these passages are all written in Hebrew and the ritual of "marriage" meant very different things in that language, as well as in Greek and Latin, from what it means to us now in English, I consider it fair game to view same-sex unions in a broad and interpretively flexible way.

J

[bigregory]

I am and always will be my own GOD

[AmericanAsian]

There are passages referencing sexual morals. However, the bible is nothing more than an instrument to help guide people through life. For those true to God’s words; he gave us Ten Commandments. These were his laws handed down to man directly from him.

Despite the thousands of examples that the bible has to offer, there are only Ten Laws that we have been commanded to follow. It’s irresponsible for anyone to interpret the bible let alone judge the actions of others. The use of the bible in any form other than a moral guide places God beneath man. Those who are guilty of such proselytizing do not serve God, but their own evil agenda.

[weskain77]

It doesn't say "no homosexual marriage" but In the old testament or Tora, I believe in Genesis it says God finds homosexuality, beastiality and incest destestable

Hope that doesn't upset anyone too much- but there it is. I'm sure the next time you're at a motel you can look it up curtesy of the Gideons. :)

[weskain77]

Oh geez, here i am getting drawn into a political/religious debate:

no, the ten commandments aren't the only commandments in the Bible- they form the basis of Old Jewish law and may be the only ones that have the title "commandment" attached to them, but they are no where near being the only things we are told to do.

I think a more irresponsible outlook is an obvious ignorance on the subject, but speaking from a position of authority on the matter.

:)

-W

[weskain77]

Oh, and one more thing:

addressing the age of the Bible and how/if it has changed: Look up the dead sea scrolls- dated 150ish AD and almost perfectly the same. And no, i don't think that if God finds homosexuality detestable or not should anyone discriminate or hate them- that goes against the whole personality of Jesus anyway. Lying is a sin, and we all do it, and there are very few out there parading against liars because they are sinners. If you think homosexuality is a sin, then the following should most definitely apply: "hate the sin, love the sinner". Should be able to apply that principal to every sin.

I think that's all I have to say... for real.
:)

-W

[JohnnyV]

It doesn't say "no homosexual marriage" but In the old testament or Tora, I believe in Genesis it says God finds homosexuality, beastiality and incest destestable

Hope that doesn't upset anyone too much- but there it is. I'm sure the next time you're at a motel you can look it up curtesy of the Gideons. :)

Hi,

I don't want to get into a very long exegesis here, so, put briefly, no, there is no verse in Genesis that explicitly states that God finds homosexuality, bestiality, or incest detestable. Abraham and Sara are brother and sister, for instance. There are snippets that people interpret that way, but it's not explicit.

J

[NightHawk]

Since the Old Testament was written by men to promote the cause of the Hebrew tribes in a very marginal life and while surrounded by many powerful enemies, what is said there should be understood in that context. They needed a tribal god more powerful than those of their enemies. They needed to stay healthy, so eating pork was unwise. We do not find a serious reason to believe that God does not want us to eat pork today.

The New Testament books were written 50 to 150 years or so after Jesus's death. Debates about which books should be included went on for hundreds of years after that. Christians in the very early years did not think it wrong not to marry before having sexual relations. That idea came later. Odd, when we hear that marriage is so necessary now in the eyes of God. Many of the basic ideas of Christianity were not agreed on until they were voted on in a series of councils 300 to a bit over 500 years AD. After that, the people who had different viewpoints were declared heretics and simply killed. Pope Innocent decided a Christian sect in southern France was heretical in 1209 and sent a crusade against them. About 1 million people were killed in that area in the subsequent 80 years for being suspected members of the heretical sect. This had the effect of reducing the debate on what Christian beliefs were for some time.

So, rather than consult the Bible, I just ask my friend God what he thinks. He asked me why would he give mankind such marvelously fine minds if he did not want us to use them? He said that it was unbelievably insulting to him that so many failed to use this great gift he had given them. He also says that this is the only real commandment that he would ever give man: "You must use your mind to live well and to achieve happiness."

He also asks me: "How could anyone ever believe that I would be jealous of other gods? If you worship another god, you may be a fool, but I am too great to feel jealousy."

Also: "My goodness, I gave man the Greek philosophers did I not? How could man have turned from the gift of Aristotle and the understanding of human bisexuality for so long? It is clear man is not using his mind."

[holydragoon]

mayb i shouldn't have started this thread. lol ;) However, it is interesting to see how the bible actually appears to have been written in a way that it can be interpreted very ambiguously... mayb it was done on purpose? :eek:

[Driver 8]

Because these passages are all written in Hebrew and the ritual of "marriage" meant very different things in that language, as well as in Greek and Latin, from what it means to us now in English, I consider it fair game to view same-sex unions in a broad and interpretively flexible way.
Loving same-sex relationships, certainly (I'm more convinced by arguments for David and Jonathan as what modern people would consider a couple than Ruth and Naomi, but that's another story.) Marriage seems, to me, to be a bit of a stretch here, and my impression is that it's not a word widely used in the literature. I'm certainly willing to hear additional evidence on the point.

However, I completely agree that it's ahistorical to suggest that ancient cultures' ideas about marriage are even roughly the same as those of modern Americans. The "marriage is an institution unchanged for thousands of years" claim that you hear nowadays is nonsense, intended to bolster already weak arguments for discrimination.

[Long Duck Dong]

based on my knowledge and understanding of the many religions, faiths and beliefs that i have studied over the years,...christianity is the only one that calls for couples to be joined in the eyes of god, in a state of marriage.....

the many forms of *bonding * covered two or more people of lesbian. gay or straight origins, christianity sought to gain control over that and hence we have marriage..... now with the ethics of civil union ( same sex marriage )...the christians are screaming that it is destorying the bonds of marriage and the sacredness of it

now this is a non issue to christians....as they are the ones that believe that marriage is sacred to THEIR god and so all people should bow to christians and their beliefs...... the freedom of choice and rights do not exist to most christians.....in their eyes we either follow their ways of life... or suffer silently

the interesting thing to note is that christians have the highest rate of divorce in the world......so much for their sacred marriages in the eyes of their god

[wildangel]

Since the Old Testament was written by men to promote the cause of the Hebrew tribes in a very marginal life and while surrounded by many powerful enemies, what is said there should be understood in that context. They needed a tribal god more powerful than those of their enemies. They needed to stay healthy, so eating pork was unwise. We do not find a serious reason to believe that God does not want us to eat pork today.

The New Testament books were written 50 to 150 years or so after Jesus's death. Debates about which books should be included went on for hundreds of years after that. Christians in the very early years did not think it wrong not to marry before having sexual relations. That idea came later. Odd, when we hear that marriage is so necessary now in the eyes of God. Many of the basic ideas of Christianity were not agreed on until they were voted on in a series of councils 300 to a bit over 500 years AD. After that, the people who had different viewpoints were declared heretics and simply killed. Pope Innocent decided a Christian sect in southern France was heretical in 1209 and sent a crusade against them. About 1 million people were killed in that area in the subsequent 80 years for being suspected members of the heretical sect. This had the effect of reducing the debate on what Christian beliefs were for some time.

So, rather than consult the Bible, I just ask my friend God what he thinks. He asked me why would he give mankind such marvelously fine minds if he did not want us to use them? He said that it was unbelievably insulting to him that so many failed to use this great gift he had given them. He also says that this is the only real commandment that he would ever give man: "You must use your mind to live well and to achieve happiness."

He also asks me: "How could anyone ever believe that I would be jealous of other gods? If you worship another god, you may be a fool, but I am too great to feel jealousy."

Also: "My goodness, I gave man the Greek philosophers did I not? How could man have turned from the gift of Aristotle and the understanding of human bisexuality for so long? It is clear man is not using his mind."


You spoke the thoughts in my head much more eloquently than I ever could have managed.

Why does it have to matter what we believe God thinks? I would bet we're grand entertainment for him, trying to figure out what he wants/thinks/decrees.

[JohnnyV]

Loving same-sex relationships, certainly (I'm more convinced by arguments for David and Jonathan as what modern people would consider a couple than Ruth and Naomi, but that's another story.) Marriage seems, to me, to be a bit of a stretch here, and my impression is that it's not a word widely used in the literature. I'm certainly willing to hear additional evidence on the point.

However, I completely agree that it's ahistorical to suggest that ancient cultures' ideas about marriage are even roughly the same as those of modern Americans. The "marriage is an institution unchanged for thousands of years" claim that you hear nowadays is nonsense, intended to bolster already weak arguments for discrimination.

LOL, where's your gaydar? Two butch widows hiking from town to town, stealing wheat to feed themselves? If it were the 21st century, they'd have a motorcycle and lots of keychains. Boaz was just the sperm donor so they could have a kid of their own.

No, on a more serious tip, I think the question is what how we weigh the companionship, sex, domestic maintenance, and emotional support of marriage. As you say, marriage changes from era to era. If, in our time, we say as some Christians do, that marriage is the social bedrock of a community, then I would say that in ancient times the corollary to it would be:

1/relations that involve some physical intimacy, even if we wouldn't say that it's oral, anal, or vaginal sex.
2/relations that are not based on blood, but require a vow or oath
3/a promise to support one another and not abandon each other (in sickness and in health, for rich or for poor...)
4/a pooling of property or survival means
5/some sense that heritage is shared. D&J fuse their houses when D adopts J's son, while N&R are fused because R was married to N's son, and later, when N helps R identify a male who can impregnate her, R keeps N in her close orbit so they will inevitably jointly raise R's children.

But on a simpler, note, I just can't picture two horny women spending that much time together and not giving each other a helping hand, emotionally and possibly sexually.

J

[NightHawk]

You spoke the thoughts in my head much more eloquently than I ever could have managed.

Why does it have to matter what we believe God thinks? I would bet we're grand entertainment for him, trying to figure out what he wants/thinks/decrees.

Thanks, wildangel.

It is entertainment for him, but it is also for many people an entertainment to try to figure out what he wants and thinks. This seems particularly true of some Hindus I know. Some of them view their many gods as entertainment rather after the fashion of afternoon soaps. Since most of the popular ideas of god make little sense to me, I figure that if such a being exists, that being should be at least as rational as a very rational man if I am to respect him/her. Otherwise, this very powerful being is just very scary and likely to be very arbitrary. Of course, this is assuming he/she exists, which is a huge assumption. ;)

[red_riding_hood_27]

I have kept quiet on many topics on the Bible in here. First did not want to open a can of worms on my self. I was raised as a Jehovah Witness. I do not attend the meetings since I was 18. However some of their teachings have stayed with me. I would have never considered the scriptures of Ruth and Naomi anything more than a mother and daughter. She was her mother-in-law. Naomi lost her sons and husband. She must have loved her as a mother! Reading the whole story (again) I can't see where anyone could get the idea that more was going on. The story of them was one of my favorites in my bible story book.

As to the other topic of same sex marriage. It has been a while but I don't remember reading anything on that except that:
1 Cornithainas 6 9-12 The gist as many people know is about who will not inherit the kingdom of God. I was raised with this bit of advise about sex 1 Corinthaians 7 says several things on the marriage and unmarried persons.

Well that is that.

Angela