Never Forget

[falcondfw]

On this day, let us never forget what happened on 9/11/2001. Let us never forget the victims of those heinous crimes. Let us never forget those who have sacrificed since to keep us safe.

[jamieknyc]

I was there when it happened.

[jamieknyc]

I was there

[DuckiesDarling]

I will always remember... I will never forget. So glad to those that made it out safe, so proud of those who sacrificed so others could live, so regretful of lives lost all around.

[MelissaPDX]

May everyone that died in the attacks rest in peace. It does however beg the question was 9/11 an inside job? Jet fuel and fire can't melt or destroy a sky scraper made out of metal, let alone 3. $131 million dollars were spent investigating the Columbia space shuttle crash. Over $79 million were spent on investigating Bill Clinton having sex with Monica. Only $15 million dollars were spent on the 9/11 commission.

[jamieknyc]

As a September 11th survivor, do you mind holding off the conspiracy theories until after the anniversary of that day?

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Yeah I agree with Jamie. Al that other BS pales in comparision. It demeans the people who died in that senseless, cowardly attack. What Bin Laden sought to do was destroy the mentality of a country, and cripple a Nation...what the silly fuck did was unite the country, and the Wold...against him.
RIP Brothers and Sisters and may the Great Spirit bless and comfort those who Lived it.
Cat

[falcondfw]

Melissa,
Trolling will make you no friends here. Especially on this day. If it is not trolling, your timing sucks.
I think my intention for this thread was perfectly clear. It is meant as a rememberance of those who passed in the attacks on that day and of those who have passed since in the duty of keeping us safe from follow ups.
If you want to talk abou conspiracies, please whow respect and start a different thread. TOMORROW!!!

[MelissaPDX]

THE TOP 40 REASONS TO DOUBT THE OFFICIAL STORY OF SEPTEMBER 11th, 2001 ... An outline in simple talking points ... We are continuing to compile the best documentation links for every single point on this page, and intend to post the updated version as soon as possible, and create teaching tools and more from the info. This is a significant and time-consuming process--if you have useful links, please send them to janice[at]911truth[dot]org. Thanks for your help! If you use the search function with title key words, you will discover that 911Truth.org is home to articles backing virtually every point made below. Much of the basic research is available at the Complete 9/11 Timeline (hosted by cooperativeresearch.org), the 9/11 Reading Room (911readingroom.org), and the NY Attorney General Spitzer petition and complaint (Justicefor911.org). For physical evidence discussion, see Point 7. THE DAY ITSELF - EVIDENCE OF COMPLICITY 1) AWOL Chain of Command a. It is well documented that the officials topping the chain of command for response to a domestic attack - George W. Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, Richard Myers, Montague Winfield - all found reason to do something else during the actual attacks, other than assuming their duties as decision-makers. b. Who was actually in charge? Dick Cheney, Richard Clarke, Norman Mineta and the 9/11 Commission directly conflict in their accounts of top-level response to the unfolding events, such that several (or all) of them must be lying. 2) Air Defense Failures a. The US air defense system failed to follow standard procedures for responding to diverted passenger flights. b. Timelines: The various responsible agencies - NORAD, FAA, Pentagon, USAF, as well as the 9/11 Commission - gave radically different explanations for the failure (in some cases upheld for years), such that several officials must have lied; but none were held accountable. c. Was there an air defense standdown? 3) Pentagon Strike How was it possible the Pentagon was hit 1 hour and 20 minutes after the attacks began? Why was there no response from Andrews Air Force Base, just 10 miles away and home to Air National Guard units charged with defending the skies above the nation''s capital? How did Hani Hanjour, a man who failed as a Cessna pilot on his first flight in a Boeing, execute a difficult aerobatic maneuver to strike the Pentagon? Why did the attack strike the just-renovated side, which was largely empty and opposite from the high command? 4) Wargames a. US military and other authorities planned or actually rehearsed defensive response to all elements of the 9/11 scenario during the year prior to the attack - including multiple hijackings, suicide crashbombings, and a strike on the Pentagon. b. The multiple military wargames planned long in advance and held on the morning of September 11th included scenarios of a domestic air crisis, a plane crashing into a government building, and a large-scale emergency in New York. If this was only an incredible series of coincidences, why did the official investigations avoid the issue? There is evidence that the wargames created confusion as to whether the unfolding events were "real world or exercise." Did wargames serve as the cover for air defense sabotage, and/or the execution of an "inside job"? 5) Flight 93 Did the Shanksville crash occur at 10:06 (according to a seismic report) or 10:03 (according to the 9/11 Commission)? Does the Commission wish to hide what happened in the last three minutes of the flight, and if so, why? Was Flight 93 shot down, as indicated by the scattering of debris over a trail of several miles? THE DAY - POSSIBLE SMOKING GUNS 6) Did cell phones work at 30,000 feet in 2001? How many hijackings were attempted? How many flights were diverted? 7) Demolition Hypothesis What caused the collapse of a third skyscraper, WTC 7, which was not hit by a plane? Were the Twin Towers and WTC 7 brought down by explosives? (See "The Case for Demolitions," the websites wtc7.net and 911research.wtc7.net, and the influential article by physicist Steven Jones. See also items no. 16 and 24, below.) FOREKNOWLEDGE & THE ALLEGED HIJACKERS 8) What did officials know? How did they know it? a. Multiple allied foreign agencies informed the US government of a coming attack in detail, including the manner and likely targets of the attack, the name of the operation (the "Big Wedding"), and the names of certain men later identified as being among the perpetrators. b. Various individuals came into possession of specific advance knowledge, and some of them tried to warn the US prior to September 11th. c. Certain prominent persons received warnings not to fly on the week or on the day of September 11th. 9) Able Danger, Plus - Surveillance of Alleged Hijackers a. The men identified as the 9/11 ringleaders were under surveillance for years beforehand, on the suspicion they were terrorists, by a variety of US and allied authorities - including the CIA, the US military''s "Able Danger" program, the German authorities, Israeli intelligence and others. b. Two of the alleged ringleaders who were known to be under surveillance by the CIA also lived with an FBI asset in San Diego, but this is supposed to be yet another coincidence. 10) Obstruction of FBI Investigations prior to 9/11 A group of FBI officials in New York systematically suppressed field investigations of potential terrorists that might have uncovered the alleged hijackers - as the Moussaoui case once again showed. The stories of Sibel Edmonds, Robert Wright, Coleen Rowley and Harry Samit, the "Phoenix Memo," David Schippers, the 199i orders restricting investigations, the Bush administration''s order to back off the Bin Ladin family, the reaction to the "Bojinka" plot, and John O''Neil do not, when considered in sum, indicate mere incompetence, but high-level corruption and protection of criminal networks, including the network of the alleged 9/11 conspirators. (Nearly all of these examples were omitted from or relegated to fleeting footnotes in The 9/11 Commission Report.) 11) Insider Trading a. Unknown speculators allegedly used foreknowledge of the Sept. 11th events to profiteer on many markets internationally - including but not limited to "put options" placed to short-sell the two airlines, WTC tenants, and WTC re-insurance companies in Chicago and London. b. In addition, suspicious monetary transactions worth hundreds of millions were conducted through offices at the Twin Towers during the actual attacks. c. Initial reports on these trades were suppressed and forgotten, and only years later did the 9/11 Commission and SEC provide a partial, but untenable explanation for only a small number of transactions (covering only the airline put options through the Chicago Board of Exchange). 12) Who were the perpetrators? a. Much of the evidence establishing who did the crime is dubious and miraculous: bags full of incriminating material that happened to miss the flight or were left in a van; the "magic passport" of an alleged hijacker, found at Ground Zero; documents found at motels where the alleged perpetrators had stayed days and weeks before 9/11. b. The identities of the alleged hijackers remain unresolved, there are contradictions in official accounts of their actions and travels, and there is evidence several of them had "doubles," all of which is omitted from official investigations. c. What happened to initial claims by the government that 50 people involved in the attacks had been identified, including the 19 alleged hijackers, with 10 still at large (suggesting that 20 had been apprehended)? http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-worldtrade-50suspects,0,1825231.story THE 9/11 COVER-UP, 2001-2006 13) Who Is Osama Bin Ladin? a. Who judges which of the many conflicting and dubious statements and videos attributed to Osama Bin Ladin are genuine, and which are fake? The most important Osama Bin Ladin video (Nov. 2001), in which he supposedly confesses to masterminding 9/11, appears to be a fake. In any event, the State Department''s translation of it is fraudulent. b. Did Osama Bin Ladin visit Dubai and meet a CIA agent in July 2001 (Le Figaro)? Was he receiving dialysis in a Pakistani military hospital on the night of September 10, 2001 (CBS)? c. Whether by Bush or Clinton: Why is Osama always allowed to escape? d. The terror network associated with Osama, known as the "base" (al-Qaeda), originated in the CIA-sponsored 1980s anti-Soviet jihad in Afghanistan. When did this network stop serving as an asset to covert operations by US intelligence and allied agencies? What were its operatives doing in Kosovo, Bosnia and Chechnya in the years prior to 9/11? 14) All the Signs of a Systematic 9/11 Cover-up a. Airplane black boxes were found at Ground Zero, according to two first responders and an unnamed NTSB official, but they were "disappeared" and their existence is denied in The 9/11 Commission Report. b. US officials consistently suppressed and destroyed evidence (like the tapes recorded by air traffic controllers who handled the New York flights). c. Whistleblowers (like Sibel Edmonds and Anthony Shaffer) were intimidated, gagged and sanctioned, sending a clear signal to others who might be thinking about speaking out. d. Officials who "failed" (like Myers and Eberhard, as well as Frasca, Maltbie and Bowman of the FBI) were given promotions. 15) Poisoning New York The White House deliberately pressured the EPA into giving false public assurances that the toxic air at Ground Zero was safe to breathe. This knowingly contributed to an as-yet unknown number of health cases and fatalities, and demonstrates that the administration does consider the lives of American citizens to be expendable on behalf of certain interests. 16) Disposing of the Crime Scene The rapid and illegal scrapping of the WTC ruins at Ground Zero disposed of almost all of the structural steel indispensable to any investigation of the collapse mechanics. (See also item no. 23, below.) 17) Anthrax Mailings of weapons-grade anthrax - which caused a practical suspension of the 9/11 investigations - were traced back to US military stock. Soon after the attacks began in October 2001, the FBI approved the destruction of the original samples of the Ames strain, disposing of perhaps the most important evidence in identifying the source of the pathogens used in the mailings. Were the anthrax attacks timed to coincide with the Afghanistan invasion? Why were the letters sent only to media figures and to the leaders of the opposition in the Senate (who had just raised objections to the USA PATRIOT Act)? 18) The Stonewall a. Colin Powell promised a "white paper" from the State Department to establish the authorship of the attacks by al-Qaeda. This was never forthcoming, and was instead replaced by a paper from Tony Blair, which presented only circumstantial evidence, with very few points actually relating to September 11th. b. Bush and Cheney pressured the (freshly-anthraxed) leadership of the Congressional opposition into delaying the 9/11 investigation for months. The administration fought against the creation of an independent investigation for more than a year. c. The White House thereupon attempted to appoint Henry Kissinger as the chief investigator, and acted to underfund and obstruct the 9/11 Commission. 19) A Record of Official Lies a. "No one could have imagined planes into buildings" - a transparent falsehood upheld repeatedly by Rice, Rumsfeld and Bush. b. "Iraq was connected to 9/11" - The most "outrageous conspiracy theory" of all, with the most disastrous impact. 20) Pakistani Connection - Congressional Connection a. The Pakistani intelligence agency ISI, creator of the Taliban and close ally to both the CIA and "al-Qaeda," allegedly wired $100,000 to Mohamed Atta just prior to September 11th, reportedly through the ISI asset Omar Saeed Sheikh (later arrested for the killing of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl, who was investigating ISI connections to "al-Qaeda.") b. This was ignored by the congressional 9/11 investigation, although the senator and congressman who ran the probe (Bob Graham and Porter Goss) were meeting with the ISI chief, Mahmud Ahmed, on Capitol Hill on the morning of September 11th. c. About 25 percent of the report of the Congressional Joint Inquiry was redacted, including long passages regarding how the attack (or the network allegedly behind it) was financed. Graham later said foreign allies were involved in financing the alleged terror network, but that this would only come out in 30 years. 21) Unanswered Questions and the "Final Fraud" of the 9/11 Commission: a. The September 11th families who fought for and gained an independent investigation (the 9/11 Commission) posed 400-plus questions, which the 9/11 Commission adopted as its roadmap. The vast majority of these questions were completely ignored in the Commission hearings and the final report. b. The membership and staff of the 9/11 Commission displayed awesome conflicts of interest. The families called for the resignation of Executive Director Philip Zelikow, a Bush administration member and close associate of "star witness" Condoleezza Rice, and were snubbed. Commission member Max Cleland resigned, condemning the entire exercise as a "scam" and "whitewash." c.The 9/11 Commission Report is notable mainly for its obvious omissions, distortions and outright falsehoods - ignoring anything incompatible with the official story, banishing the issues to footnotes, and even dismissing the still-unresolved question of who financed 9/11 as being "of little practical significance." 22) Crown Witnesses Held at Undisclosed Locations The alleged masterminds of 9/11, Khalid Sheikh Mohamed (KSM) and Ramzi Binalshibh, are reported to have been captured in 2002 and 2003, although one Pakistani newspaper said KSM was killed in an attempted capture. They have been held at undisclosed locations and their supposed testimonies, as provided in transcript form by the government, form much of the basis for The 9/11 Commission Report (although the Commission''s request to see them in person was denied). After holding them for years, why doesn''t the government produce these men and put them to trial? 23) Spitzer Redux a. Eliot Spitzer, attorney general of New York State, snubbed pleas by New York citizens to open 9/11 as a criminal case (Justicefor911.org). b. Spitzer also refused to allow his employee, former 9/11 Commission staff member Dietrich Snell, to testify to the Congress about his (Snell''s) role in keeping "Able Danger" entirely out of The 9/11 Commission Report. 24) NIST Omissions After the destruction of the WTC structural steel, the official Twin Towers collapse investigation was left with almost no forensic evidence, and thus could only provide dubious computer models of ultimately unprovable hypotheses. It failed to even test for the possibility of explosives. (Why not clear this up?) 25) Radio Silence The 9/11 Commission and NIST both allowed the continuing cover-up of how Motorola''s faulty radios, purchased by the Giuliani administration, caused firefighter deaths at the WTC - once again showing the expendability, even of the first responders. 26) The Legal Catch-22 a. Hush Money - Accepting victims'' compensation barred September 11th families from pursuing discovery through litigation. b. Judge Hallerstein - Those who refused compensation to pursue litigation and discovery had their cases consolidated under the same judge (and as a rule dismissed). 27) Saudi Connections a. The 9/11 investigations made light of the "Bin Ladin Airlift" during the no-fly period, and ignored the long-standing Bush family business ties to the Bin Ladin family fortune. (A company in which both families held interests, the Carlyle Group, was holding its annual meeting on September 11th, with George Bush Sr., James Baker, and two brothers of Osama Bin Ladin in attendance.) b. The issue of Ptech. 28) Media Blackout of Prominent Doubters The official story has been questioned and many of the above points were raised by members of the US Congress, retired high-ranking officers of the US military, the three leading third-party candidates for President in the 2004 election, a member of the 9/11 Commission who resigned in protest, a former high-ranking adviser to the George W. Bush administration, former ministers to the German, British and Canadian governments, the commander-in-chief of the Russian air force, 100 luminaries who signed the "9/11 Truth Statement," and the presidents of Iran and Venezuela. Not all of these people agree fully with each other, but all would normally be considered newsworthy. Why has the corporate-owned US mass media remained silent about these statements, granting due coverage only to the comments of actor Charlie Sheen? GEOPOLITICS, TIMING AND POSSIBLE MOTIVES 29) "The Great Game" The Afghanistan invasion was ready for Bush''s go-ahead on September 9, 2001, with US and UK force deployments to the region already in place or underway. This followed the failure earlier that year of backdoor diplomacy with the Taliban (including payments of $125 million in US government aid to Afghanistan), in an attempt to secure a unity government for that country as a prerequisite to a Central Asian pipeline deal. 30) The Need for a "New Pearl Harbor" Principals in US foreign policy under the current Bush administration (including Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle and others) have been instrumental in developing long-running plans for worldwide military hegemony, including an invasion of the Middle East, dating back to the Ford, Reagan and Bush Sr. administrations. They reiterated these plans in the late 1990s as members of the "Project for a New American Century," and stated a clear intent to invade Iraq for the purpose of "regime change." After 9/11, they lost no time in their attempt to tie Iraq to the attacks. 31) Perpetual "War on Terror" 9/11 is supposed to provide carte-blanche for an open-ended, global and perpetual "War on Terror," against any enemy, foreign or domestic, that the executive branch chooses to designate, and regardless of whether evidence exists to actually connect these enemies to 9/11. 32) Attacking the Constitution a. The USA PATRIOT Act was written before 9/11, Homeland Security and the "Shadow Government" were developed long before 9/11, and plans for rounding up dissidents as a means for suppressing civil disturbance have been in the works for decades. b. 9/11 was used as the pretext to create a new, extra-constitutional executive authority to declare anyone an "enemy combatant" (including American citizens), to detain persons indefinitely without habeas corpus, and to "render" such persons to secret prisons where torture is practiced. 33) Legal Trillions 9/11 triggers a predictable shift of public spending to war, and boosts public and private spending in the "new" New Economy of "Homeland Security," biometrics, universal surveillance, prisons, civil defense, secured enclaves, security, etc. 34) Plundered Trillions? On September 10, 2001, Donald Rumsfeld announced a "war on waste" after an internal audit found that the Pentagon was "missing" 2.3 trillion dollars in unaccounted assets. On September 11th, this was as good as forgotten. 35) Did 9/11 prevent a stock market crash? Did anyone benefit from the destruction of the Securities and Exchange Commission offices at WTC 7, and the resultant crippling of hundreds of fraud investigations? 36) Resource Wars a. What was discussed in the Energy Task Force meetings under Dick Cheney in 2001? Why is the documentation of these meetings still being suppressed? b. Is Peak Oil a motive for 9/11 as inside job? 37) The "Little Game" Why was the WTC privatized just before its destruction? HISTORY 38) "Al-CIA-da?" The longstanding relationship between US intelligence networks and radical Islamists, including the network surrounding Osama Bin Ladin. (See also point 13d.) 39) Historical Precedents for "Synthetic Terror" a. In the past many states, including the US government, have sponsored attacks on their own people, fabricated the "cause for war," created (and armed) their own enemies of convenience, and sacrificed their own citizens for "reasons of state." b. Was 9/11 an update of the Pentagon-approved "Project Northwoods" plan for conducting self-inflicted, false-flag terror attacks in the United States, and blaming them on a foreign enemy? 40) Secret Government a. The record of criminality and sponsorship of coups around the world by the covert networks based within the US intelligence complex. b. Specifically also: The evidence of crime by Bush administration principals and their associates, from October Surprise to Iran-Contra and the S&L plunder to PNAC, Enron/Halliburton and beyond. REASON NUMBER 41: RELATED MOVEMENTS AND PARALLEL ISSUES Ground Zero aftermath movements: - Justice for the air-poisoning cover-up (wtceo.org) - "Radio Silence" (radiosilencefdny.com) - Skyscraper Safety (www.skyscrapersafety.org). Election fraud and black box voting, 2000 to 2004. (BlackBoxVoting.org) Lies to justify the invasion of Iraq. (afterdowningstreet.org) Use of depleted uranium and its multi-generational consequences on human health and the environment. Longstanding development of contingency plans for civil disturbance and military rule in the USA (See, "The War at Home") Oklahoma City Truth movement. (Offline, but not forgotten - May 9, 2008!) Whether you call it "Globalization" or "The New World Order" - An unsustainable system of permanent growth ultimately requires warfare, fraud, and mass manipulation. GOING FORWARD ... "But an inside job would involve thousands of people! How could they keep a secret?" Counter-arguments, red herrings, speculations and false information. Selected essays, books and websites that make the case for 9/11 as inside job. (See Resources) Demanding a real investigation of the September crimes - Not just a patriotic duty, but a matter of survival.

[tenni]

Jamie
I offer you my sincere admiration(I guess that is the closest word other than condolences). One day I would like to read your thoughts but they may be too personal. It was a horrific day. It isn't the only horrific tragedy in the history of humans but it is one that most of us remember with sadness.

[falcondfw]

Melissa,
Obviously you do not know the meaning of the word respect. I hope someone shows as much respect to you when your time comes as you have shown to the fallen today.

Jamie,
I am sorry that anybody had to be there. I am glad you made it through.

[Jobelorocks]

Melissa, I don't care what your views are, but you are just being very inconsiderate and are saying this at the wrong time. This thread is to honor the dead and those who acted heroically in response to this horrible occurance. It is not the time or the place to be posting that. You are being really rude. Save this for another post of your own on another day. It seems like you are trying to just be offensive.

p.s. it is always rude in a forum to have a wall of text.

[falcondfw]

In tribute:


http://youtu.be/p6yLQRF-cEU

[Doggie_Wood]

Quote by Falcon
Melissa,
Obviously you do not know the meaning of the word respect. I hope someone shows as much respect to you when your time comes as you have shown to the fallen today.
End Quote

Ditto to what Falcon and Jobel said - - Hate to say it, but to post what you did Melissa in this particular thread on this particular day, Sept. 11th - - Melissa, YOU SUCK!! :yikes2:

I hold that day very close to my heart and I will never forget the sacrifices that were given that day. And I will never forget those that perpetrated that despicable deed!


Doggie :doggie:

[pepperjack]

It was a poignant day of reflection & remembrance for me. It started with some of the most graphic video coverage of the attack . Several times there was mention of the similarity of weather conditions....the clear, blue sky.... perfect temperature.

My son lives in the Boston area; he called me shortly after the events. He told me he had recently been on an observation deck on one of the towers; after the attack, he had visited ground zero. I'll never forget how much he stammered, choked with emotion, and groped for words trying to express to me the absolutely overwhelming disparity of those two scenes.

I saw an interesting poster today of the graphic headlines emblazoned across front pages of major newspapers immediately following the attack; many used repetitive words and themes. One stood out as unique:http://editdesk.wordpress.com/2009/05/18/memorable-headlines-bastards/

[void()]

I have abstained from this thread. I have two questions for consideration.
If you decry this as disrespectful, or suggest speech be curtailed appealing
to decency or other such authority, please consider the first amendment.
And yes, I understand for many a willingness to suspend freedoms to
ensure safety.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" - Ben Franklin.

Is it more respectful to live in ignorance, or to live knowing truth?

Is it honorable to believe a lie about deaths, or honorable to know truth of life?

No reply needed as I only seek to posit this for consideration.

[pepperjack]

I have abstained from this thread. I have two questions for consideration.
If you decry this as disrespectful, or suggest speech be curtailed appealing
to decency or other such authority, please consider the first amendment.
And yes, I understand for many a willingness to suspend freedoms to
ensure safety.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" - Ben Franklin.

Is it more respectful to live in ignorance, or to live knowing truth?

Is it honorable to believe a lie about deaths, or honorable to know truth of life?

No reply needed as I only seek to posit this for consideration.


Once again...if you have abstained ....why is this post even here?:crosseye: yeah, ok we get it..you're claiming 1st Amendment right of freedom of speech in the country you keep railing against.:confused:

Answer, question 1: you tell us, since you seem to be privy to some arcane knowledge that the rest of us hardworking, struggling Americans are blind to.:rolleyes:

Answer, question 2 : Is it honorable to leech off the system and then turn like a rabid animal & bite the hand that feeds you?

BS! This post was entered for the very purpose of receiving a response!

[pepperjack]

NEVER FORGET 9/11 and that Islam is an evil juggernaut,relentlessly advancing to destroy the very human rights & liberties that common human decency has tried to establish for millennium.

[Annika L]

NEVER FORGET 9/11 and that Islam is an evil juggernaut,relentlessly advancing to destroy the very human rights & liberties that common human decency has tried to establish for millennium.

Pepsi...love ya...but this statement is assinine, ignorant, and inflammatory. That you could disrespect a peace-loving religion that is held sacred to 1/5 of the world's population...without (evidently) knowing much about it....

Just disappointing. And *way* out of place in a thread about remembering the victims of 9/11.

[Long Duck Dong]

I remember saying to my flatmate ( the elderly guy I caregive for ) that he had been watching too many sci fi movies when he told me what had happened when I got up in the morning...then I turned on the tv, and immediately apologized...

a few days later, I got a phonecall from the US, and was told that a couple of my friends were in the towers..... and I went from being a observer of a tragedy to a person that had lost friends.....

9/11 for me was a humbling reminder that in a world that is constantly in a state of turmoil, that there is often no safe place anymore..... and the means that people will go to, to make a statement, can know no bounds......but 9/11 is also for me, a reminder that there are people that give everything in order to help others.... the firemen are a fine example of those people, the strangers that rushed in to hug and hold other random strangers and get them to safety, the medical staff, the police... the list goes on.... so many of them, unsung heroes........

lest we forget.....

[void()]

Once again...if you have abstained ....why is this post even here?:crosseye: yeah, ok we get it..you're claiming 1st Amendment right of freedom of speech in the country you keep railing against.:confused:

Answer, question 1: you tell us, since you seem to be privy to some arcane knowledge that the rest of us hardworking, struggling Americans are blind to.:rolleyes:

Answer, question 2 : Is it honorable to leech off the system and then turn like a rabid animal & bite the hand that feeds you?

BS! This post was entered for the very purpose of receiving a response!

I have abstained from being disrespectful such as you. I point to the first amendment as we allegedly as Americans fought to speak freely, to think freely too.

As I said, merely sought consideration, thought. I guess all that arduous labor deteriorates brain cells to a point one can not think. Maybe, a desire to be an unthinking drone lies in being supplicant to ignorant superstition. This would explain your lack of basic literacy. I merely posed questions as food for thought. I think.

Excuse me for not dignifying the rest of your diatribe with a retort, it's unneeded and unmerited.

Whilst here, I do seek correcting something. You conflated something I said in another post that you're free to believe as will. Your conflation seemed an attempt to paint me as being arrogant enough to have authority over you. Apologies, I'm anything but arrogant.

My expression that you're free to believe as you will is just that, a confirmation that everyone, including myself is free to believe what they will. It was not meant to express me thinking, or implying authority over you, or anyone save myself. The next time you attempt such conflation in order to make yourself appear superior, consider what you may appear instead.

Also note, any iota of respect I held for you has vanished. You demonstrate a desire and aptness to manipulate ideas and cause cognitive dissonance in order to further your selfish goal/s. I much dislike egotist and you most assuredly seem that to me.

Articulate and clear enough for you? If not, I can word it for children of four years.

[falcondfw]

I have abstained from this thread. I have two questions for consideration.
If you decry this as disrespectful, or suggest speech be curtailed appealing
to decency or other such authority, please consider the first amendment.
And yes, I understand for many a willingness to suspend freedoms to
ensure safety.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" - Ben Franklin.

Is it more respectful to live in ignorance, or to live knowing truth?

Is it honorable to believe a lie about deaths, or honorable to know truth of life?

No reply needed as I only seek to posit this for consideration.

Void,
I totally respect your right to voice your opinion. But I have several points for you to consider.

1. No one has proven 9/11 was a pack of lies.

2. Even if it is lies, does that make the deaths of so many any less valuable or the sacrifices of so many others?

3. On this day, at this time, and given the spirit of this thread, is this really the time to be posting these things? Seems to me it shows a lack of respect for those who died, regardless of whether 9/11 was real or some conspiracy theorists dream.

You have every right to post your conspiracy theories and believe those you choose. I fought for that right. I will defend it to my last breath. But your timing is very bad. And if those were the types of things you wanted to post, you should have started your own thread.

[falcondfw]

NEVER FORGET 9/11 and that Islam is an evil juggernaut,relentlessly advancing to destroy the very human rights & liberties that common human decency has tried to establish for millennium.

Pepper,

We should never forget. And we never will.
But this is not all muslims. This is not all Islam.
My best friend is a Muslim from Jordan. We used to work together. In fact we worked together on that day.
At Southwest Airlines. He cried just as hard as I did. He prayed for the victims just as much as I did.
He was visibly shaken for 2 weeks. Just not himself. None of us were.
The twin towers are the result of the same kind of extremist lunkheads who attacked our embassies in Egypt and Lybia today.
The assholes should have been shot off of the wall before they ever reached old glory.
There are extremists in the conservative movement. There are extremists in the liberal movement. There are extremists in Christianity. There are extremists in Islam. Let us not paint all of a kind with the brush of extremists.

[darkeyes]

NEVER FORGET 9/11 and that Islam is an evil juggernaut,relentlessly advancing to destroy the very human rights & liberties that common human decency has tried to establish for millennium.
Am disappointed in u now Pepper... Islamic peeps the world over say same bout Christianity... diff view of rights, liberties, religion and common decency, babes...

[falcondfw]

Am disappointed in u now Pepper... Islamic peeps the world over say same bout Christianity... diff view of rights, liberties, religion and common decency, babes...

Fran,
Yes, but in peppers defense, the more extreme members of Islam are killing Americans daily. Look at the news reports from Iraq and Afghanistan.
Extremists are trying to derail any possibility, in both countries, of democracy. if it wasn't for my friend Hazem, I would be totally to the point where pepper is. Just turn Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan into a glass filled parking lot with nukes.
I totally get why he feels why he does. I did not lose anyone in 9/11. But i came damn freakin close. My cousin's wife was supposed to be on the second plane. Only her son's unwillingness to get ready for school saved her.
I also have a lot of friends in New York. Fortunately, none of them were involved in 9/11.
But that does not stop me from mourning or honoring those who were there, like Jamie from KY, and especially those who who sacrificed on that day. I am tired of war. I am tired of killing. I am tired of always wondering where the next 9/11 will take place. But I honor those who have the guts and courage to keep us safe and those who have sacrificed so much to prevent the next 9/11. It would be so much easier just to vaporize those 4 countries, and we could easily do it, but there are innocents there and they do not deserve that fate.
There is an extreme element of islam, and not a small element, that is hell bent on wiping out anyone that does not agree with them. You and the rest of the "peaceniks" need to realize this fran. Read history. These extreme idiots, need to be nuked into oblivion. Justice demands it.

[SlimDandy]

This thread originally was initiated in the memory and honor of those innocent thousands of human beings, both Americans and others, killed during the 9/11 attacks. Its purpose was also to pay tribute to those many hundreds of thousands of people who have been organized in order to defend our borders for security. That was the original substance of this thread.

What happened?


All I can say, is that despite the eternal two faces of all the Abrahamic religions and the evil, destruction, corruption, and deception that they have all brought about, all of those who fell victim to those vicious, unconscionable, and cowardly attacks, had nothing to with it! They were just everyday people going about their lives in a very routine manner. To be blindsided in the manner in which they were killed, and have their many valuable lives taken away from us so quickly and unexpectly was just unthinkable.

There is a time for everything. This is not the right time to discuss politics or religion. This is a time to remember how quickly the innocent can fall victim to the dark side of humanity. No country, religion, or political organization has clean hands. What we as humans have, is an insatiable thirst for hatred, blood, greed, and revenge. Unfortunately, we have also been plagued with the specific DNA type which apparently renders us helpless in escaping this vicious cycle of violence.

Sometimes I wish that I could just wave a magic wand and enter John Lennon's world of IMAGINE....

[darkeyes]

My views of the aftermath of 9/11 are well known Falcon... my view of war and its futility and stupidity.. of violence and terror of ne kind.. I asked my registry class stand for a minute's silence yesterday morning in memory of all who lost their lives on 9/11 and for all those who who have died as a result of that aftermath... who still die.. that my views on why the twin towers happened and why wars erupted afterwards and fear and hatred reign in our world are at variance with yours and the common view, particularly in the US...this too is well known to any who has read a word I have written on the subject. I read my history tyvm which is why I hold the views I do, because I read and learn from it... if only those who lead our countries into conflict did likewise and those who lead young men and women to die in the name of cause.. my comment to Pepper reflects a dearly held view that there is another side to the one we have rammed down our throats; one which is not western, not American or British and not Christian. Too many have died already and been maimed... and no end is in sight to its continuance.. I could argue ad infinitum on the points u make and more, and have over time...but this thread is not the place and have said more than I should already. My admonishment of Pepper was but a gentle tap on the hand of someone of whom I am fond.. no more than that..

[falcondfw]

This thread originally was initiated in the memory and honor of those innocent thousands of human beings, both Americans and others, killed during the 9/11 attacks. Its purpose was also to pay tribute to those many hundreds of thousands of people who have been organized in order to defend our borders for security. That was the original substance of this thread.

What happened?


All I can say, is that despite the eternal two faces of all the Abrahamic religions and the evil, destruction, corruption, and deception that they have all brought about, all of those who fell victim to those vicious, unconscionable, and cowardly attacks, had nothing to with it! They were just everyday people going about their lives in a very routine manner. To be blindsided in the manner in which they were killed, and have their many valuable lives taken away from us so quickly and unexpectly was just unthinkable.

There is a time for everything. This is not the right time to discuss politics or religion. This is a time to remember how quickly the innocent can fall victim to the dark side of humanity. No country, religion, or political organization has clean hands. What we as humans have, is an insatiable thirst for hatred, blood, greed, and revenge. Unfortunately, we have also been plagued with the specific DNA type which apparently renders us helpless in escaping this vicious cycle of violence.

Sometimes I wish that I could just wave a magic wand and enter John Lennon's world of IMAGINE....

Slim,
The spirit of this thread has not changed. At least my intent has not. And yes, I will call out Drew, regardless of the consequences, for allowing others to try to hijack this thread on this day.
Only a few (well, one) has tried to truly hijack this thread. Others, when asked to back of for respect, get it.
I do wish they would start a separate thread for conspiracy threads and other issues, but some people know no shame.

[falcondfw]

My views of the aftermath of 9/11 are well known Falcon... my view of war and its futility and stupidity.. of violence and terror of ne kind.. I asked my registry class stand for a minute's silence yesterday morning in memory of all who lost their lives on 9/11 and for all those who who have died as a result of that aftermath... who still die.. that my views on why the twin towers happened and why wars erupted afterwards and fear and hatred reign in our world are at variance with yours and the common view, particularly in the US...this too is well known to any who has read a word I have written on the subject. I read my history tyvm which is why I hold the views I do, because I read and learn from it... if only those who lead our countries into conflict did likewise and those who lead young men and women to die in the name of cause.. my comment to Pepper reflects a dearly held view that there is another side to the one we have rammed down our throats; one which is not western, not American or British and not Christian. Too many have died already and been maimed... and no end is in sight to its continuance.. I could argue ad infinitum on the points u make and more, and have over time...but this thread is not the place and have said more than I should already. My admonishment of Pepper was but a gentle tap on the hand of someone of whom I am fond.. no more than that..

Fran,

Why are you always so complicated? You have to do things i totally agree with? And then do things I despise? Damn. You are worse than my ex-wife!!! So frustrating at times. So lovable at others.


My views of the aftermath of 9/11 are well known Falcon... my view of war and its futility and stupidity.. of violence and terror of ne kind..

I totally understand that. But i wish you would start a separate thread for your views. Out of respect for the original intent of this thread.


I asked my registry class stand for a minute's silence yesterday morning in memory of all who lost their lives on 9/11 and for all those who who have died as a result of that aftermath...

I love you. Thank you so much, fran. Regardless of political affiliation and beliefs, this day should only be for rememberance of the sacrifices of those on that day and of the sacrifices of those in the resulting wars. There are 364 other days for disagreement with policies.

This is not blowing smoke up your skirts. You have a sense of decency and appreciation, even though you disagree with the wars, that you can show respect. That is different from many others.

Like i said, i can seriously understand where pepper comes from. I came within 30 minutes of losing family. I have stood on the twin towers many times. On the observation decks. I spent so much time in NYC. I was not there when the towers fell, like Jamie. But I have spent so much time there and in the city, that I feel like i could have had serious tragedies that day. Family in the twin towers. A 7 month pregnant wife who was t-boned by an idiot who crossed 2 lanes of traffic to get to her. Many friends in NYC, both in Manhattan and in the Bronx/Brooklyn, etc. It could have been a truly devastating day. I am so grateful it was not.

But i still cannot get over the fact I stood on the Observation Deck many times. And now. It is gone. The beauty. The majesty.

Even though they build the memorial and the new tower, I can never forget what was there and what I saw.

I know you disagree with a lot i believe in, but thank you for the respect, Fran.

[void()]

Void,
I totally respect your right to voice your opinion. But I have several points for you to consider.

1. No one has proven 9/11 was a pack of lies.

2. Even if it is lies, does that make the deaths of so many any less valuable or the sacrifices of so many others?

3. On this day, at this time, and given the spirit of this thread, is this really the time to be posting these things? Seems to me it shows a lack of respect for those who died, regardless of whether 9/11 was real or some conspiracy theorists dream.

You have every right to post your conspiracy theories and believe those you choose. I fought for that right. I will defend it to my last breath. But your timing is very bad. And if those were the types of things you wanted to post, you should have started your own thread.

1. No one has proven the 911 commission's story beyond reproach and impeccably true either.

2. Do not conflate what I'm saying. I am not disrespecting the tragedy of the deaths. I am asking is it better to continually trot them out each year and not know why? Or is it better to figure out why?

Do you not owe them that much, out of honor? To me this whole thing of pointing at an alter with a slain lamb and saying remember borders on ignorance, especially when these lambs seem to have died in vain, as no one wants to understand fully what happened.

And if you voice that you're discredited, caused you to appear irrational, ignorant. You're told to shut the fuck up, have a coke and smile.

I'm saying fuck that. I have a right to know why they died. I have a right to understand all this. Got a right to say I do, too. And by damned, I'm as patriotic as any American here despite what some desire to think.

3. Look at the time of my posting. Twelve hours were allowed, a day by civil standards. http://www.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?13438-Never-Forget&p=238694&viewfull=1#post238694

I allotted due time and respect. And the content of what I said was not disrespectful but rather asking for another means of respecting the fallen. This is all so laughably ridiculous it's not even ironically funny. You asked people to remember, to think of them. I did the same pretty much, only that I asked we really think on why things happened.

It is others whom conflated what I was saying with that I was not saying. They know whom they are and can go un-fuck themselves, not worth fucking.

And you go ahead and call out to Drew. I'm tired enough of this bullshit of argumentative trolls twisting what a person says, no longer care if I'm here or not. It's utterly stupid. I know what I said and it was not what was said I said. If someone wants be king of a pile of shit, they can go right ahead, I'll not stand in the way.

There ya go Pepsi, have at it.

Probably never occurred to anyone, that I may have lost a person I considered a brother there. He was on a duty lay over at the time, federal buildings, any building with federal offices are deemed places for soldiers to check in and 'hang out' in route to next duty call. I do not know know if he was there or not. Not gotten word one way or another, just gone. So asking why seems pretty damn relevant to me.

[i_shoot_blanks]

I am a WWII baby, was in the womb when Pearl Harbor was attacked. I am so sorry now that I never asked my mother her feelings on that horrible day.
I spent 9/11 with my boss, a reserve AF tech sergeant, who was also pregnant and I learned what my mother must have been going through. As for me, it made me mad. My country had been attacked and I attempted, unsucessfully to get back on active duty.

[darkeyes]

Fran,

Why are you always so complicated? You have to do things i totally agree with? And then do things I despise? Damn. You are worse than my ex-wife!!! So frustrating at times. So lovable at others.



I totally understand that. But i wish you would start a separate thread for your views. Out of respect for the original intent of this thread.



I love you. Thank you so much, fran. Regardless of political affiliation and beliefs, this day should only be for rememberance of the sacrifices of those on that day and of the sacrifices of those in the resulting wars. There are 364 other days for disagreement with policies.


*laffs* I am anything but complicated.. it all seems so simple to me falcon... but me lead in was perfectly acceptable and I did not and do not intend to start a full scale debate on war or 9/11... but don't thank me too much babes.. cos when I said "all who died", I meant all on both sides, combatant and non-combatant and those like the victims of the Twin Towers atrocity itself are caught in the middle, which I'm quite sure was not wholly your intention. The kids understood that, as indeed did my Head when I proposed doing it...

I may be an educator but I am not a mouthpiece of the state and do not indoctrinate my charges into either my own opinions or those of the Westminster or Edinburgh governments or any political party and certainly not the Kirk or ne other religious body..... I do not see that as my purpose and if that was my purpose I would have quite another vocation. Kids in my class like the rest of the school have opinions and no opinions on 9/11 and the wars and conflict which followed.. the school has a number of Islamic pupils and in my registry class there are 3... as many are critical of British and American policy as they are of Al Quaeda whatever their religion or lack of it, as they are ofthe Taliban and other Islamic groups but being young as yet they have no real understanding of what the conflict is about.. my job is not to give them that understanding, neither is it my function to so much as discuss the rights or wrongs of it.. it is not my subject... but as an educator it is my job to foster respect for others and within that function my request to those kids was perfectly reasonable...

[darkeyes]

​,[/B] thought and consideration for others and within that function my request to those kids was perfectly reasonable...
Was in a rush and should and the words in bold type should have been contained at the end of my last post..:)

[pepperjack]

Fran,
Yes, but in peppers defense, the more extreme members of Islam are killing Americans daily. Look at the news reports from Iraq and Afghanistan.
Extremists are trying to derail any possibility, in both countries, of democracy. if it wasn't for my friend Hazem, I would be totally to the point where pepper is. Just turn Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan into a glass filled parking lot with nukes.
I totally get why he feels why he does. I did not lose anyone in 9/11. But i came damn freakin close. My cousin's wife was supposed to be on the second plane. Only her son's unwillingness to get ready for school saved her.
I also have a lot of friends in New York. Fortunately, none of them were involved in 9/11.
But that does not stop me from mourning or honoring those who were there, like Jamie from KY, and especially those who who sacrificed on that day. I am tired of war. I am tired of killing. I am tired of always wondering where the next 9/11 will take place. But I honor those who have the guts and courage to keep us safe and those who have sacrificed so much to prevent the next 9/11. It would be so much easier just to vaporize those 4 countries, and we could easily do it, but there are innocents there and they do not deserve that fate.
There is an extreme element of islam, and not a small element, that is hell bent on wiping out anyone that does not agree with them. You and the rest of the "peaceniks" need to realize this fran. Read history. These extreme idiots, need to be nuked into oblivion. Justice demands it.


This element you refer to as not small is the juggernaut I was referring to. And yes, look at history. Islam is about force, domination. That is why the Dome of the Rock now sits upon the former site of Solomon's Temple. Thanks for understanding my point of view, Falcon. You mentioned the recent uprisings in Libya & Egypt; reinforces my point. You'll never see Christians behaving like this at the slightest "perceived" disrespect of their religion. I'm just so fed up with with this walking-on-eggshells attitude we're expected to assume when dealing with these out-of-control raging lunatics. Just listened to another expert on foreign policy today stating that they do not respect apologies, pandering, coddling....but see it as a sign of weakness! I have heard this time and again.That is why this dangerous movement keeps growing. They know what they can get away with and keep pushing the envelope.






@ AnnikaL: Not a peaceful religion, only disguised as such. Not an expert on Islam but have learned enough to know there's nothing divine about it. From what I understand, it's a 'religion':rolleyes: of convenience, created by men as a means of controlling others over existing trade routes at the time. I can live with your unfavorable opinions of me. There's always a method to my madness. Thanks for your love vibes.:cool:

[SlimDandy]

Since this thread has morphed into some kinda bastard of a thread from its original intention of honor and tribute anyways, I'll just add the following:

At no point in time has any Abrahamic religion been universally at peace with other religions, and that includes other Abrahamic religions, than the one specified at the time of discussion. Additionally, to make matters worse, there are various sects within each group that are in serious discord with one another. Christians have their denominations. Moslems have their sects, and Jews are orthodox, conservative, and reformed. Even within those three main groups, there are still divisions. Moslems have their basic Shia and Sunni sects, but then there are Sufis and Wahhabis too! Of course, there are still subdivisions, even within those sects.

Therefore, all of mankind is divided, confused, and doctrinally screwed up...We're just spinning on this rock, embedded within myriad of miilions solar systems, all spnning around within the universe. We're just here, left alone to figure all of this impossible shit out!

For some reason, I get the feeling that god is just sitting back and laughing his ass off at our silly antics, as we slowly evolve into something hopefully, more socially, globally, and universally acceptable...

Right now, in our current condition, we're just pathetic!

[pepperjack]

Since this thread has morphed into some kinda bastard of a thread from its original intention of honor and tribute anyways, I'll just add the following:

At no point in time has any Abrahamic religion been universally at peace with other religions, and that includes other Abrahamic religions, than the one specified at the time of discussion. Additionally, to make matters worse, there are various sects within each group that are in serious discord with one another. Christians have their denominations. Moslems have their sects, and Jews are orthodox, conservative, and reformed. Even within those three main groups, there are still divisions. Moslems have their basic Shia and Sunni sects, but then there are Sufis and Wahhabis too! Of course, there are still subdivisions, even within those sects.

Therefore, all of mankind is divided, confused, and doctrinally screwed up...We're just spinning on this rock, embedded within myriad of miilions solar systems, all spnning around within the universe. We're just here, left alone to figure all of this impossible shit out!

For some reason, I get the feeling that god is just sitting back and laughing his ass off at our silly antics, as we slowly evolve into something hopefully, more socially, globally, and universally acceptable...

Right now, in our current condition, we're just pathetic!


Morphed? Why don't you address this issue with the OP who claims the "spirit" of the thread is intact? Thanx for your very positive, hopeful input.:rolleyes: Do you REALLY want to know how to make GOD laugh? Make a plan.

[Annika L]

From what I understand, it's a 'religion' of convenience, created by men as a means of controlling others....

I've never met one that wasn't.

Perhaps you have reason to think it is evil. But you sound awfully paranoid...and your original post about it was downright hateful. Even if your reasons prove to be correct (which I suspect is a lot to ask), there are a LOT of very good and very peace-loving Muslims, and Muslims have done their share of advancing our society, overall. You certainly may believe what you will about any religion...but on a site that explores love and asks tolerance from the world, spreading hate and intolerance is unacceptable to this member.

And yw for the love vibes, btw. More love, less hate, shall we?

[SlimDandy]

NEVER FORGET 9/11 and that Islam is an evil juggernaut,relentlessly advancing to destroy the very human rights & liberties that common human decency has tried to establish for millennium.

You've just got to be kidding me!

So I guess the Crusades, were all the fault of Moslems. I guess when the Pope blessed both the Jew-killing Nazis and the US during WWII, he was in full representation of god, himself. I guess when both the Islamic east and the Christian west enslaved and/or killed millions of Africans during the enslavement period of colonialization, that to was sanctioned by god. Oh yeah, forgive me, that's right, slavery is condoned in both the koran and the bible. I guess when the Conquistadors ventured into their new kingdom of the Americas, the fact that Catholic priests, either preceeded them, or accompanied them, validated their cause.

Oh yeah, and let's not forget about Pearl Harbor, which was resoundly answered with the atomic bombing of Hiroshima. Then there's the indigenous people of the Americas, who have been completely displaced and well on their way to slow annihilation via genocide. Of course, before the intrusion of the white man, the indigenous people were hacking away at their ownselves, before we even got here. They were doing the same thing we were doing further west of them. Since when did Spain, France, and Britain all get along without some kinda battle going on between them. Then there's the blood thirsty Mongols and the Vikings.

Plan? Exactly what kinda plan are you speaking of? There's is no plan! A plan to fix this shit. Are you out of your freaking mind! We've been doomed since day one!

Now does that mean we shouldn't at least try to do better? No. Clearly it does not! However, it seems fairly clear to me that all of our plans, thus far, have not addressed the primary issue at hand. Our inbreed ignorance! That same type of ignorance that inspires us to violence, greed, conquest, and deception!

Apparently, even our advanced degrees in higher education are incapable of abating it. We even grant degrees in military weaponry. We grant large sum of money and recognition to people who invent advanced weaponry that can potentially kill more people within a shorter span of time.

How 'bout that for advanced planning?...Is that along the same lines you were thinking? Killing more people, faster? A sort of accelerated murder kinda deal...

Geeesh!

[falcondfw]

Since this thread has morphed into some kinda bastard of a thread from its original intention of honor and tribute anyways, I'll just add the following:

At no point in time has any Abrahamic religion been universally at peace with other religions, and that includes other Abrahamic religions, than the one specified at the time of discussion. Additionally, to make matters worse, there are various sects within each group that are in serious discord with one another. Christians have their denominations. Moslems have their sects, and Jews are orthodox, conservative, and reformed. Even within those three main groups, there are still divisions. Moslems have their basic Shia and Sunni sects, but then there are Sufis and Wahhabis too! Of course, there are still subdivisions, even within those sects.

Therefore, all of mankind is divided, confused, and doctrinally screwed up...We're just spinning on this rock, embedded within myriad of miilions solar systems, all spnning around within the universe. We're just here, left alone to figure all of this impossible shit out!

For some reason, I get the feeling that god is just sitting back and laughing his ass off at our silly antics, as we slowly evolve into something hopefully, more socially, globally, and universally acceptable...

Right now, in our current condition, we're just pathetic!

I have to disagree with your conclusion, Slim. I don't think God is laughing at what he sees at all. I think he is crying his eyes out.

[falcondfw]

You've just got to be kidding me!

So I guess the Crusades, were all the fault of Moslems. I guess when the Pope blessed both the Jew-killing Nazis and the US during WWII, he was in full representation of god, himself. I guess when both the Islamic east and the Christian west enslaved and/or killed millions of Africans during the enslavement period of colonialization, that to was sanctioned by god. Oh yeah, forgive me, that's right, slavery is condoned in both the koran and the bible. I guess when the Conquistadors ventured into their new kingdom of the Americas, the fact that Catholic priests, either preceeded them, or accompanied them, validated their cause.

Oh yeah, and let's not forget about Pearl Harbor, which was resoundly answered with the atomic bombing of Hiroshima. Then there's the indigenous people of the Americas, who have been completely displaced and well on their way to slow annihilation via genocide. Of course, before the intrusion of the white man, the indigenous people were hacking away at their ownselves, before we even got here. They were doing the same thing we were doing further west of them. Since when did Spain, France, and Britain all get along without some kinda battle going on between them. Then there's the blood thirsty Mongols and the Vikings.

Plan? Exactly what kinda plan are you speaking of? There's is no plan! A plan to fix this shit. Are you out of your freaking mind! We've been doomed since day one!

Now does that mean we shouldn't at least try to do better? No. Clearly it does not! However, it seems fairly clear to me that all of our plans, thus far, have not addressed the primary issue at hand. Our inbreed ignorance! That same type of ignorance that inspires us to violence, greed, conquest, and deception!

Apparently, even our advanced degrees in higher education are incapable of abating it. We even grant degrees in military weaponry. We grant large sum of money and recognition to people who invent advanced weaponry that can potentially kill more people within a shorter span of time.

How 'bout that for advanced planning?...Is that along the same lines you were thinking? Killing more people, faster? A sort of accelerated murder kinda deal...

Geeesh!

Slim, now YOU are morphing the original intent of this thread. I do not approve of what pepper stated in his first post - As i said, one of my best friends is a muslim from Jordan, living and working here in north Texas. Also, my cousin was married to a muslim from Kuwait.
This is not supposed to be an anti-muslim or an anti-jewish, or any other thing thread.
It was a tribute to those who died and those who have sacrificed since.
If any of you want to discuss the merits of things, please show respect for the original intent of this thread and start a different thread to discuss those conflicts.
Thank you.

[SlimDandy]

Slim, now YOU are morphing the original intent of this thread. I do not approve of what pepper stated in his first post - As i said, one of my best friends is a muslim from Jordan, living and working here in north Texas. Also, my cousin was married to a muslim from Kuwait.
This is not supposed to be an anti-muslim or an anti-jewish, or any other thing thread.
It was a tribute to those who died and those who have sacrificed since.
If any of you want to discuss the merits of things, please show respect for the original intent of this thread and start a different thread to discuss those conflicts.
Thank you.


I'm sorry Falcon...

[falcondfw]

I'm sorry Falcon...

sok. And thanks for the apology. It means a lot.
we all get carried away at times.

[void()]

This element you refer to as not small is the juggernaut I was referring to. And yes, look at history. Islam is about force, domination. That is why the Dome of the Rock now sits upon the former site of Solomon's Temple. Thanks for understanding my point of view, Falcon. You mentioned the recent uprisings in Libya & Egypt; reinforces my point. You'll never see Christians behaving like this at the slightest "perceived" disrespect of their religion. I'm just so fed up with with this walking-on-eggshells attitude we're expected to assume when dealing with these out-of-control raging lunatics. Just listened to another expert on foreign policy today stating that they do not respect apologies, pandering, coddling....but see it as a sign of weakness! I have heard this time and again.That is why this dangerous movement keeps growing. They know what they can get away with and keep pushing the envelope.






@ AnnikaL: Not a peaceful religion, only disguised as such. Not an expert on Islam but have learned enough to know there's nothing divine about it. From what I understand, it's a 'religion':rolleyes: of convenience, created by men as a means of controlling others over existing trade routes at the time. I can live with your unfavorable opinions of me. There's always a method to my madness. Thanks for your love vibes.:cool:

Nice to conveniently forget The Inquisition, Salem Witchcraft trails isn't it? Both were quite rash behavior comparable with that you oppose. Friday the thirteenth which became a bad day due to the massacre of the Knights Templar on that day. Galileo put to death for heresy.

"You'll never see Christians behaving like this at the slightest "perceived" disrespect of their religion."

Bull, just pointed out four incidents above, would keep on all day but even one incident disproves your statement.

[pepperjack]

Nice to conveniently forget The Inquisition, Salem Witchcraft trails isn't it? Both were quite rash behavior comparable with that you oppose. Friday the thirteenth which became a bad day due to the massacre of the Knights Templar on that day. Galileo put to death for heresy.

"You'll never see Christians behaving like this at the slightest "perceived" disrespect of their religion."

Bull, just pointed out four incidents above, would keep on all day but even one incident disproves your statement.

I still stand by that comment and the only thing you've been able to disprove is that you're living in the present. And btw, the massacre of the Templars had very little if anything to do with religion but was motivated by the jealousy and greed of King Philip of France because the Order had amassed so much wealth and he was deeply in debt to them, unable to pay.

[pepperjack]

I've never met one that wasn't.

Perhaps you have reason to think it is evil. But you sound awfully paranoid...and your original post about it was downright hateful. Even if your reasons prove to be correct (which I suspect is a lot to ask), there are a LOT of very good and very peace-loving Muslims, and Muslims have done their share of advancing our society, overall. You certainly may believe what you will about any religion...but on a site that explores love and asks tolerance from the world, spreading hate and intolerance is unacceptable to this member.

And yw for the love vibes, btw. More love, less hate, shall we?

Well, if I sound "awfully paranoid," you're definitely coming across as the 'ostrich with its head buried in the sand,' maybe even Pollyannaish. The post you found so controversial was not my original one, but I admit,it was a harsh, blanket statement. I was caught up in the solemnity of the anniversary. I was in an emotionally vulnerable state and had a knee-jerk reaction to the uprisings occurring in the Muslim world on that very day. Now, it appears, they might have been deliberately orchestrated to coincide with the 9/11 anniversary. I tried to correct myself when agreeing with falcon about a certain element in Islam but I guess you overlooked that. I have known some Muslims before and never had any problems getting along with them

[void()]

I still stand by that comment and the only thing you've been able to disprove is that you're living in the present. And btw, the massacre of the Templars had very little if anything to do with religion but was motivated by the jealousy and greed of King Philip of France because the Order had amassed so much wealth and he was deeply in debt to them, unable to pay.

And at that period in time a monarch was also king of the Church, even up until present time it is so. The Church sought the wealth and power of the Templars. The Templars sought to protect the people, to share wealth and power. If you want to deny this, then explain the significance of a Holy Coronation, wherein a monarch swears to uphold the laws of God and Church. And yes, they do so prior to actually being granted title and rank. Look up the Coronation of Queen Elizabeth II on youtube. Her Coronation took place as I say.

What is in the past bears upon what is now. To borrow from Orwell, they who control the past also control the future. At present I see the Church as a tool of the Elders of Zion, bankers. At present I see Israel preparing to slaughter the world by means of attacking Iran. At present I see that which should have never been allowed to reign. Fear and ignorance ruling when we should be basking in enlightenment.

Fear and ignorance you seem bent upon promoting.

Let me step aside for you, though. Have your dung heap.

[Annika L]

Well, if I sound "awfully paranoid," you're definitely coming across as the 'ostrich with its head buried in the sand,' maybe even Pollyannaish. The post you found so controversial was not my original one, but I admit,it was a harsh, blanket statement. I was caught up in the solemnity of the anniversary. I was in an emotionally vulnerable state and had a knee-jerk reaction to the uprisings occurring in the Muslim world on that very day. Now, it appears, they might have been deliberately orchestrated to coincide with the 9/11 anniversary. I tried to correct myself when agreeing with falcon about a certain element in Islam but I guess you overlooked that. I have known some Muslims before and never had any problems getting along with them

Hmmm...Pollyannaish for acknowledging that there are loads of good Muslims out there, for acknowledging that Islam has had positive influences on the world, and for insisting on a lack of hate speech on an LGBT site. Huh. I would have said that my statement on religion generally was downright cynical (while being completely accurate)...kinda the opposite of Pollyannaish. Oh well.

I never said there aren't *bad* people who claim to follow Islam. There certainly are. The vast majority of Muslims decry this minority as "not real Muslims". But they do exist, and although I think it gives them more credit than they deserve to call them a "not small" element or a "juggernaut", they certainly are extremely dangerous...it is their dangerousness that makes them look larger than they are, in fact. My objection, however, was to your broad brush and *apparent* ignorance (though your other posts indicate that you aren't ignorant...you just weren't being sufficiently careful with your language)...it isn't Islam to which you object...it is this group of dangerous, disturbed people who function in the name of Islam...yes?

Your post to Falcon did target the right group, but in no way acknowledged that your original brush was far too large. I had not overlooked it, but it was hardly a "correction".

Oh, "your original post about it" meant "your original post on *this* topic", not "your first post on this thread". Lest we need to knitpick.:rolleyes:

[pepperjack]

And at that period in time a monarch was also king of the Church, even up until present time it is so. The Church sought the wealth and power of the Templars. The Templars sought to protect the people, to share wealth and power. If you want to deny this, then explain the significance of a Holy Coronation, wherein a monarch swears to uphold the laws of God and Church. And yes, they do so prior to actually being granted title and rank. Look up the Coronation of Queen Elizabeth II on youtube. Her Coronation took place as I say.

What is in the past bears upon what is now. To borrow from Orwell, they who control the past also control the future. At present I see the Church as a tool of the Elders of Zion, bankers. At present I see Israel preparing to slaughter the world by means of attacking Iran. At present I see that which should have never been allowed to reign. Fear and ignorance ruling when we should be basking in enlightenment.

Fear and ignorance you seem bent upon promoting.

Let me step aside for you, though. Have your dung heap.


What does the coronation of a pope have to do with the true motive behind the massacre of the Templars? It was the king of France who coveted their wealth, ordered the attack and then put pressure on the pope to have the remainder of the order disbanded. Conveying distorted facts is promoting ignorance.

Speaking of which: "At present I see Israel preparing to slaughter the world by means of attacking Iran." And you want to accuse me of promoting fear and ignorance.:rolleyes: But then, why should I be surprised? Constantly contradicting yourself has always been your style.

[void()]

What does the coronation of a pope have to do with the true motive behind the massacre of the Templars? It was the king of France who coveted their wealth, ordered the attack and then put pressure on the pope to have the remainder of the order disbanded. Conveying distorted facts is promoting ignorance.

Speaking of which: "At present I see Israel preparing to slaughter the world by means of attacking Iran." And you want to accuse me of promoting fear and ignorance. But then, why should I be surprised? Constantly contradicting yourself has always been your style.

Well enough then, I am calling open fire.

You must be completely stupid to not read what I wrote. Stupid to
try conflating what I wrote, again.


And at that period in time a monarch was also king of the Church, even up until present time it is so. The Church sought the wealth and power of the Templars. The Templars sought to protect the people, to share wealth and power. If you want to deny this, then explain the significance of a Holy Coronation, wherein a monarch swears to uphold the laws of God and Church. And yes, they do so prior to actually being granted title and rank. Look up the Coronation of Queen Elizabeth II on youtube. Her Coronation took place as I say.

What is in the past bears upon what is now. To borrow from Orwell, they who control the past also control the future. At present I see the Church as a tool of the Elders of Zion, bankers. At present I see Israel preparing to slaughter the world by means of attacking Iran. At present I see that which should have never been allowed to reign. Fear and ignorance ruling when we should be basking in enlightenment.

Fear and ignorance you seem bent upon promoting.

Let me step aside for you, though. Have your dung heap.

I do not see where I mentioned Coronation of any pope. I speak of
monarchs in my post. Here, google can define it for you, you stupid
fuck.

http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+monarch&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&client=iceweasel-a

I am speaking of kings and queens. Let me define fucking popes for you
as well as you likely will not be intelligent enough to see a
difference.

http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+pope&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&client=iceweasel-a

A king or queen is the secular extension of the Church. They swear to
uphold the laws of God and Church. They swear this upon what is commonly
referred to as the King's Bible.

A pope has nought to do with it beyond ceding secular power to the
monarch, whom abides by the Church. I did not mention popes in my post.

It is not fear and ignorance to see what is for what is.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jcrVjGORNzw4Rzom-HhE-PFp2rQQ?docId=CNG.96ef5382d53f44338468570447594103 .471

http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/israel-and-iran-grounds-israeli-attack

If it happens, make no mistake, Isreal will use nuclear weapons.

Nuclear weapons leave behind severe damage which does not merely clear
off. This damage stays in the environment to effect us all.

And what is to say Israel would limit to targeting Iran? What says
Pakistan would not retaliate for Iran, or China?

I jokingly said we should make the Middle East a glass parking lot.
But honestly, you can not see that striking a match near open dynamite
would not be a good idea? Damn, you're really fucking stupid.

Jackass!

N.B. Don't want to be called stupid? Don't act stupid.

[Jobelorocks]

WOW, you guys have turned a thread that was to honor heroes and the dead into a name calling, history debating, prejudice creating thread. Man, I am disappointed with some of the behavior I see going on. People I used to like, I am starting not to like anymore.

[pepperjack]

Hmmm...Pollyannaish for acknowledging that there are loads of good Muslims out there, for acknowledging that Islam has had positive influences on the world, and for insisting on a lack of hate speech on an LGBT site. Huh. I would have said that my statement on religion generally was downright cynical (while being completely accurate)...kinda the opposite of Pollyannaish. Oh well.

I never said there aren't *bad* people who claim to follow Islam. There certainly are. The vast majority of Muslims decry this minority as "not real Muslims". But they do exist, and although I think it gives them more credit than they deserve to call them a "not small" element or a "juggernaut", they certainly are extremely dangerous...it is their dangerousness that makes them look larger than they are, in fact. My objection, however, was to your broad brush and *apparent* ignorance (though your other posts indicate that you aren't ignorant...you just weren't being sufficiently careful with your language)...it isn't Islam to which you object...it is this group of dangerous, disturbed people who function in the name of Islam...yes?

Your post to Falcon did target the right group, but in no way acknowledged that your original brush was far too large. I had not overlooked it, but it was hardly a "correction".

Oh, "your original post about it" meant "your original post on *this* topic", not "your first post on this thread". Lest we need to knitpick.:rolleyes:



"Not a small element" were falcon's words; I only agreed with them. We have been in Afghanistan for over 10 years now, the longest war in our nation's history, combating this element. Plus,when you factor in the two Iraq wars, the deaths on 9/11 and all the other terrorist attacks perpetrated worldwide for decades "In the name of Allah," I think I was accurate in referring to this faction within Islam as a juggernaut. I just don't see the condemnation from the majority that you refer to and I follow the news on a daily basis. I see an occasional Muslim speaking out. To me, that silence almost makes that majority complicit. My opinion.

[pepperjack]

Well enough then, I am calling open fire.

You must be completely stupid to not read what I wrote. Stupid to
try conflating what I wrote, again.



I do not see where I mentioned Coronation of any pope. I speak of
monarchs in my post. Here, google can define it for you, you stupid
fuck.

http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+monarch&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&client=iceweasel-a

I am speaking of kings and queens. Let me define fucking popes for you
as well as you likely will not be intelligent enough to see a
difference.

http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+pope&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&client=iceweasel-a

A king or queen is the secular extension of the Church. They swear to
uphold the laws of God and Church. They swear this upon what is commonly
referred to as the King's Bible.

A pope has nought to do with it beyond ceding secular power to the
monarch, whom abides by the Church. I did not mention popes in my post.

It is not fear and ignorance to see what is for what is.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jcrVjGORNzw4Rzom-HhE-PFp2rQQ?docId=CNG.96ef5382d53f44338468570447594103 .471

http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/israel-and-iran-grounds-israeli-attack

If it happens, make no mistake, Isreal will use nuclear weapons.

Nuclear weapons leave behind severe damage which does not merely clear
off. This damage stays in the environment to effect us all.

And what is to say Israel would limit to targeting Iran? What says
Pakistan would not retaliate for Iran, or China?

I jokingly said we should make the Middle East a glass parking lot.
But honestly, you can not see that striking a match near open dynamite
would not be a good idea? Damn, you're really fucking stupid.

Jackass!

N.B. Don't want to be called stupid? Don't act stupid.


I can handle the name calling Void. It tells me you're desperately flailing to state your case.
You recently bragged about enjoying being obtuse & ambiguous; well, then, accept the consequences of that. It's sort of like saying..." If you can't do the time...don't do the crime.

[void()]

Failing? No. The case is as clear as day, too. Nothing obtuse or ambiguous in it. I'm calling you stupid because you're stupid, or at least acting stupid. Excuse me, I don't waste breath on stupid folks.

[SlimDandy]

I can handle the name calling Void. It tells me you're desperately flailing to state your case.
You recently bragged about enjoying being obtuse & ambiguous; well, then, accept the consequences of that. It's sort of like saying..." If you can't do the time...don't do the crime.


Failing? No. The case is as clear as day, too. Nothing obtuse or ambiguous in it. I'm calling you stupid because you're stupid, or at least acting stupid. Excuse me, I don't waste breath on stupid folks.


Please!

Out of RESPECT for Falcon, our fallen, the thread, and the rest of us....

The End!

[csrakate]

It saddens me that we can't have a simple thread to honor those who died in the attacks and for those who perished while trying to save.

[gen11]

AMEN, FALCON !!!!!

[jamieknyc]

Someone asked about the experience, so I have posted a few notes that I made a day or two after the event. Some perosnal information has been redacted.

I am sending allof you this e-mail to tell you what I saw and heard on Tuesday morning. Thank all of you for your concern. I was in court in lower Manhattan when the events occurred and sawmost of it. I did not see the airplane hit because I was in the subway under the East River, but arrived by train at Broadwayand Wall Street within 5-10 minutes after that time. If you know lower Manhattan you know that that is only one block from the World Trade Center. On the southern side of the south tower there was a gaping black hole and the two floors where the hole was were burning. The north tower was also burning near the top. Heavy smoke was everywhere in the area, and papers were lying scattered in the street that fell out the windows. I walked north past both towers, which were burning on the affected floors. No-one who wasn't actually in the World Trade Center,or in the adjoining streets or buildings, was in any immediate danger.

I went into the courthouse at 80 Centre Street, which is two blocks north ofCity Hall, at about 9:30. At 10:00 the south towerfell and they evacuated the courthouse. I did not see the south tower fall because I was inside, but when I came out of the courthouse, everything south of Chambers Street was a huge cloud of smoke and ash as tall as the surrounding buildings, which are about 20 stories high.

When the building came down the cloud of smoke started people moving faster in the uptown direction. Everyone who was south of where I was gotcovered with dust from head to toe. I did not because I was one block too far north. For the rest of the day thousands of people were making the long walk uptown, anywhere, just away from the disaster site, while ambulances, fire engines and trucks carrying firemen went south. I started up East Broadway in the direction of the Lower East Side. I got as far as Henry
Street when the north tower came down. Bigchunks of the building fell off all sides in the downward direction, with a loud rumbling sound like an avalanche, and the TV tower just sank downwards into the huge cloud of dust.

A lot of the people walking northwards were covered with dust and some people, especially women, were starting to break down and cry and were being helped further northwards by friends and coworkers. Others weredistraught because they had spouses, or brothers and sisters, or other family members who worked down there. I personally did not get covered with dust. Many of the people walking uptown worked in or near the World Trade Center, but escaped because they were late for work. Others who saw the airplane hit were telling the rest what they saw. One or two people saw bodies falling from the buildings. Some people started screaming when the north towercame
down, but on the whole the entire scene was very orderly. Military jets were circling over the city for the rest of the day in case of further
attacks.

To make things worse all cell phone communication was out until about 2:00
p.m. Like thousands of other people I was trying to get a cellphone signal
as I trudged northwards. All subway service was out in Manhattan and all
bridges and tunnels were closed. My wife and my parents called my office,
and my colleagues told them I was in court in Brooklynto keep them from
panicking. I had to walk as far as Astor Place where I was able to get a
bus uptown to Grand Central. My wife works at ______at Park Avenue
and 46th Street,so I went up there.


Naturally no-one there had any work to do _________.
. Everyone was sitting around either watching CNN or trying to figure
out how to get home. The only way out of the city was to walk across the
59th Streetbridge to Queens, so the two of us ended upwalking across the
bridge with thousands of other people.


I stopped in downtown Brooklyn to pick up mycar. From there you could see
a huge cloud of smoke where the World Trade Centerused to be. The
prevailing wind was blowing south, so everything in downtown Brooklynwas
covered with smoke and ash and burned paper. Even where I live, which is
about five miles further south in Brooklyn,paper from the World Trade
Center was lying in thestreets.

My son and some of his friends went downtown to Canal Street that evening to
see scene. No one could get into the disaster area, of course, but theysaw
long lines of cranes and bulldozers going south into the disaster zone.

A friend and client of mine who works in downtown Brooklynsaw the airplane
go into the south tower. He told me he was watching the fire in the north
tower from his office when he saw the plane. His first thought was thatthe
plane was flying too low to avoid the smoke, when to his horror he saw the
plane fly directly into the building.


Another friend of mine was on a New Jersey Transit commuter train that was
stopped outside the city when the second tower came down. She told methat
everyone on the train was watching the events, and the whole train suddenly
went silent in an eerie way when the passengers saw the second tower go
down.

The next morning there was a long plume of smoke starting from where the
World Trade Centerused to be and stretching as far as the eye could see in
the direction of New Jerseyand Staten Island. Even on Thursdayafternoon
the site was still smoldering. I was in downtown Brooklynon Thursday
afternoon and passed by the Brooklyn end ofthe Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel.
Dump trucks of all shapes and sizes were heading down into the tunnel, and I
saw a few coming out the other way filled with rubble and pieces of broken
steel. From downtown Brooklyn you cansee a panoramic view of lower
Manhattan. The whole place was silent and deserted across the water, with
no traffic, no boats, no Staten Island ferriesor anything else except an
occasional ambulance or police car.


I personally do not know anyone who is missing, although everyone keeps
hearing about others who have friends or family members missing.

[falcondfw]

Jamie,
Thank you for sharing that personal and sad story.
My cousin's wife was supposed to be on one of the planes that hit the towers - the one coming from Logan in Boston.
Fortunately, It was her son's first day of Kindergarten and he did not want to go so he took his time getting ready and gave long hugs good bye.
By the time she had dropped him off, she knew she would never make the flight, so she rescheduled for a later flight.
By the time she had checked in, the first tower had already come down. Her later flight never left the airport.

[wampo]

I never forget....round about 3000 people die too much loss on that day...please peace in world
NTEP scale (http://www.primescales.net/)

[pepperjack]

While this wound remains open....a major dose of salt is being poured into it....deliberately!:mad:

[void()]

While this wound remains open....a major dose of salt is being poured into it....deliberately!:mad:

Beyond asking here, have I said anything to you, or about you, or this subject since Sep. 13 at 7:27 AM?

[pepperjack]

Beyond asking here, have I said anything to you, or about you, or this subject since Sep. 13 at 7:27 AM?

WTF? once again! Where did you come from? I just made a general post pertaining to the remembrance of 9/11 and current world events. Now who's being stupid?!

[void()]

WTF? once again! Where did you come from? I just made a general post pertaining to the remembrance of 9/11 and current world events. Now who's being stupid?!

I was being considerate, asking if anything I said since then, may be construed as me specifically pouring salt in a wound deliberately. A simple yes or no answer would have sufficed. Was compelled to be considerate as it appears, I am sometimes a bane unto you. It is called being a compassionate human being.

[pepperjack]

I was being considerate, asking if anything I said since then, may be construed as me specifically pouring salt in a wound deliberately. A simple yes or no answer would have sufficed. Was compelled to be considerate as it appears, I am sometimes a bane unto you. It is called being a compassionate human being.


:disgust:

[darkeyes]

U pair of daft ole farts! If u wanna squabble squabble in pvt... :kiss:

[pepperjack]

U pair of daft ole farts! If u wanna squabble squabble in pvt... :kiss:

Seems to me Fran, I see conflicts going on into just about every thread I peek into, especially ones where Void is present.:2cents:

[darkeyes]

Seems to me Fran, I see conflicts going on into just about every thread I peek into, especially ones where Void is present.:2cents:
Same can b sed bout quite a few peeps Pepper, babes...:)

[CuriouslyPlayfullCpl]

I hope no one ever forgets but more importantly for God's sake let us learn...

[pepperjack]

I hope no one ever forgets but more importantly for God's sake let us learn...


Seems that we have somewhat; our security precautions have been beefed up, many plots have been thwarted since then. Now they're saying, " our security measures at our foreign embassies 30 days from now will be what they should have been." You know....perfect 20/20 hindsight. On the other hand, it appears we might have to relearn the lesson of The Holocaust & Hiroshima/Nagasaki all over again.

[void()]

Same can b sed bout quite a few peeps Pepper, babes...:)

Glad someone else sees it. Thanks. And for my end, lurking a lot more. No point to converse in the forums, now really.