USA, The Free country, Facts or Fiction

[goldenfinger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dys3xE2Bnk

You tell me.

[falcondfw]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dys3xE2Bnk

You tell me.

You know, I really hate trolls who just post to stir up trouble and controversy. Especially when they are putting down the USA and they are not even from the USA. If you don't live here, you have no FREAKIN idea what goes on here and you need to keep your yap shut. I have traveled to many places around the world and in spite of our problems in this country, we are still the most free and the best country on the planet and you haters need to crawl back in your freakin hole and pull the dirt over you. I'm sick of it. If you don't have anything positive to contribute GO THE F AWAY!!!!

[HappyHedonic]

I couldn't get past the first five minutes....it is sensationalist television, not journalism. The intent is to entertain you long enough to stick around for the commercials. If there really was a police state conspiracy then the producers, director, and Jesse Ventura would have disappeared before this was shown. Please apply critical thinking when watching this.

[Long Duck Dong]

freedom is about how you live and the choices you make in your own life.... not what the government says you can and can not do....... and the US, like many other countries, has a high crime rate, suicide rate, unemployment rate, divorce rate etc etc..... thats freedom of choice in a individual persons life.....

I would love to move to the US, in order to take advantage of a healthcare system that is not available in NZ, ( meds, a couple of operations and other medical / pysch issues ) and I am aware of the cost and the laws of the US, but as far as things go in NZ, I am still better of in the US, than in NZ where we are on the leading edge of human rights......cos sometimes freedom can not be measured in what you can or can not do in your own country, but your right of choice to act in the manner of your choosing or the freedom of access to what you may need in order just to live a life as best as possible

thank you to the US for giving so many countries, more freedom and technological / medical advances than we could ever wish for......and for the sacrifices that the US has made in the name of freedom for so many people and countries, in the hell called WAR

[falcondfw]

I couldn't get past the first five minutes....it is sensationalist television, not journalism. The intent is to entertain you long enough to stick around for the commercials. If there really was a police state conspiracy then the producers, director, and Jesse Ventura would have disappeared before this was shown. Please apply critical thinking when watching this.

Sadly, Hedonic,
Critical thinking is a long deserted skill throughout the world.
Especially when it comes up against an agenda.
That is why unemployment is 8.3% in this country and employers are saying they cannot find workers to fill hundreds of thousands of available jobs.

[Warrior Poet 69]

LDD, thank you very much for not only recognizing what we do but acknowledging it as well! We are not perfect. Far from it actually, but we are the greatest country in the world and for good reason!

[Warrior Poet 69]

Falcon...unemployment is so high because we have the freedom to be as lazy as we want and ultimately we live in a time where a lot of folks, especially the younger generation, have this misbegotten sense of entitlement. They feel they should be given everything because they deserve it. A lot of those jobs are low end blue collar and they just can't be bothered. I know people right now who are sitting drawing unemployment because they can't find a job that pays what they think they are worth our entitled to instead of looking at it as a job is a job and better than nothing. Amazes me how many people are too good to digg a ditch or flip a burger. My generations grandparents must be rolling in their graves.

[falcondfw]

I agree warrior, but we also have the unemployment because many of those who apply don't have the basic math or english skills necessary to get and keep those jobs. That is what potential employers are saying and many of the jobs they are offering start at $15 per hour and up.
As for "the entitled generation" I wasn't going to go there. lol

[Warrior Poet 69]

Very true about the basic skills. Imo though that ties right to the entitlement. No kid left behind, trophies for all, and three rest of that crap. The sad truth is we have created these monsters. I have three kids under the age of 21 and thankfully my wife and I have been able to keep them reasonably grounded for the most part, but even they have that attitude to a degree because no matter what we do they still see their friends being handed everything. I try to keep in mind that this is in part a normal generational gap. We want better for our kids. I think in this instance we have gone too far!

[falcondfw]

You and I could be twins, warrior.
My ex and I have 3 kids - 16, almost 11, and 7 in january.
The eldest is special needs and, frankly, will probably always be living with either her or me.
The younger 2 have the brains to do anything they want. But because she slacked off for 3+ years (she was supposed to be homeschooling all of them. She has her degree in elementary ed and 3 years experience teaching in the Philippines.), they are falling behind.
She blames me for not giving her enough time to create a lesson plan (even though the kids spend EVERY weekend here). She blames her schedule for making it too hard to find time to plan and teach.
But the basic thing is, she didn't get the job done and she can't accept responsibility.
I totally agree with what you say about the schools and competition.
Back when I was a kid, we got our butts handed to us in little league. It inspired us to work harder and beat the snot out of them the next time. We did not give losing teams a trophy.
And yes, they see their friends being handed everything. But what the little monsters don't realize is the number of payday loans and title loans mom and dad had to float to get that DSi and the Wii and the HDTV. They will, when mom and dad are too old to work and junior has to pay back the loan or have it destroy his credit rating.

[DuckiesDarling]

Well if anyone believes this video is a factual account of anything.... I got a nice bridge in Brooklyn to sell you and some oceanfront property in Arizona.... seriously from my front porch you can see the sea (http://youtu.be/QCvW32n4z38) :tongue:

[falcondfw]

Amazing how the OP has disappeared since people started posting on this thread.
I have seen him on here TWICE since he originally posted and since others have posted rebuttals.
I would suggest the op is a true troll with an agenda of bringing the usa down.
I have some information for you, mister op.
OP, if you do not believe the usa is the greatest nation on the face of the earth, at least have the courtesy to debate the true issues. I have been all over this world. And yes, many countries where i have been thought one thing about the usa. But that was because those were the rumors the liberal media pushed. Once they learned the true facts, they appreciated the usa and all we stand for.
Let me tell you, op, like paul ryan, the vice president nominee, if you, op, want to try and bring the usa down, I welcome your transparent, idiotic attacks. If you ever have the guts to have a true debate, I will truly welcome it, so I can show you for the outside, interferist, fool you are.
i honestly hope people will forgive me for how upset I get with trolls and idiots.
I am not stupid by any means. We make mistakes. And NOONE is perfect.
But when european and other countries hide behind the skirts of the usa and then they have the gaul to criticize us as well, it is too much.
OP, YOU WOULD BE SPEAKING JAPANESE TODAY IF IT WAS NOT FOR US!!!!!
delude yourself all you want, but those are the facts.
I apologize to drew and others. They have been fair, honorable, honest. But this gets my goat. Sorry. WHO IS THE FIRST COUNTRY AROUND THE WORLD WITH AID TO ANY TROUBLED SPOT???? UNLESS YOU ARE AN INCOMPETENT IDIOT, YOU KNOW THE USA IS THE FIRST COUNTRY THERE!!!!!!
If you have the intelligence, do a google search.

[Warrior Poet 69]

DD...if I buy it will you throw the Golden Gate in free? Falcon...you have no idea my friend. Three kids as well and divorced too, though we did reconcile. Sorry you had to go through that. Here's the part that will get you though...my youngest daughter...special needs! Will always be with her mother and I! Think I might have a few questions to ask my old man. LOL

[darkeyes]

Prickly lot aintcha? I could give u 50 reasons easily from the top of my head why my own country is the best place on earth in which to live.. I can also give u 50 why it is shite.. just as folk from France can about their country and from the Netherlands, theirs; Oz, Australia; Iran (yes even poor old much maligned Iran), Iran, and am bloody sure the Israelis think that of their place. We are a subjective lot we human beings.. we have illusions, sometimes delusions, and we stick to them... we buy in to our country's propaganda and education and we puff up our breasts and say as the Scots do "Wha's like us?" and they are a bunch of chip on both shoulder arseholes an' all..they are also the warmest most welcoming, funniest and loving people I know.. a nation of contradictions... like every other people in every other country.

It is all crap... there is no greatest country on earth.. unless u consider power as equating with great... and that I do not and never have... each country is different and each has things which leaves everyone else standing as also rans.. and each has things about which it should be fucking ashamed... past and present... beat ur chest boys and girls if u like.. believe what ur told and read because the reality is u haven't a clue any more than I do... unless u know every country on earth like the back of ur hand which no one does and no one can... I love my country more than any other.. but I am not blinded by what my education taught me, or the media tells me, or my government, Scottish or UK tries to convince me of.. I question too much and read too much, know too much and know not enough...we can never know enough.. we are human beings.. we live in places where there is good and bad.. which are free and also not free.. our idea of liberty is not that of one from another land... from a culture which understand liberty as something different from we in the west.. and we knock it because it does not match our own vision of what freedom and liberty is... as they do our own..

We are different that's all.. not better or worse, not more or less free, neither greater or less great... and we should not get offended when others question our divine right to greatness..but we do... we should grateful for it stops us getting above ourselves... there is nothing wrong with being taken down a peg or two when we get too cocky and arrogant... The British (as well as other nations)have this feeling of greatness no less than Americans.. and God.. how we and the world have suffered for their arrogant claims of superiority and greatness over other peoples... we are different. And that is the best we can say for now...

[Gearbox]

Amazing how the OP has disappeared since people started posting on this thread.
I have seen him on here TWICE since he originally posted and since others have posted rebuttals.
I would suggest the op is a true troll with an agenda of bringing the usa down.
I have some information for you, mister op.
OP, if you do not believe the usa is the greatest nation on the face of the earth, at least have the courtesy to debate the true issues. I have been all over this world. And yes, many countries where i have been thought one thing about the usa. But that was because those were the rumors the liberal media pushed. Once they learned the true facts, they appreciated the usa and all we stand for.
Let me tell you, op, like paul ryan, the vice president nominee, if you, op, want to try and bring the usa down, I welcome your transparent, idiotic attacks. If you ever have the guts to have a true debate, I will truly welcome it, so I can show you for the outside, interferist, fool you are.
i honestly hope people will forgive me for how upset I get with trolls and idiots.
I am not stupid by any means. We make mistakes. And NOONE is perfect.
But when european and other countries hide behind the skirts of the usa and then they have the gaul to criticize us as well, it is too much.
OP, YOU WOULD BE SPEAKING JAPANESE TODAY IF IT WAS NOT FOR US!!!!!
delude yourself all you want, but those are the facts.
I apologize to drew and others. They have been fair, honorable, honest. But this gets my goat. Sorry. WHO IS THE FIRST COUNTRY AROUND THE WORLD WITH AID TO ANY TROUBLED SPOT???? UNLESS YOU ARE AN INCOMPETENT IDIOT, YOU KNOW THE USA IS THE FIRST COUNTRY THERE!!!!!!
If you have the intelligence, do a google search.
You full out attacked the OP in the first reply. Called him a troll, told him to 'keep his yap shut', then went on a Captain America cruisade.
Not amazing that the OP went AWAL is it?

A simple "No that's not how it is in America....yada...yada...", would have done on this international site, where peopla ASK for opinions.;)

[darkeyes]

You full out attacked the OP in the first reply. Called him a troll, told him to 'keep his yap shut', then went on a Captain America cruisade.
Not amazing that the OP went AWAL is it?

A simple "No that's not how it is in America....yada...yada...", would have done on this international site, where peopla ASK for opinions.;)
I was going to mention the troll comment in my post Gear but decided not to.. but u have a valid point. We are supposedly free peoples who believe in freedom of speech and a free exchange of ideas.. calling someone a troll for asking a question is an expedient way to discredit.. it tells us much about the the person who makes the claim and fear of criticism... it is all very well loving country, but we shouldn't be afraid of bearing its soul and facing up to its realities.. we either allow people to speak and express their opinions and ask their questions or we do not...

[goldenfinger]

This is what Americans says about Americans, not me, what are we supposed to think when your own people makes this kind of videos. Please don't be so defensive, it's either right or wrong, so if you can prove it to be wrong, please show the rest of the world so.

[Long Duck Dong]

well this is what is said about australia and NZ, does it make it true ?


http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/939894/

[Gearbox]

I was going to mention the troll comment in my post Gear but decided not to.. but u have a valid point. We are supposedly free peoples who believe in freedom of speech and a free exchange of ideas.. calling someone a troll for asking a question is an expedient way to discredit.. it tells us much about the the person who makes the claim and fear of criticism... it is all very well loving country, but we shouldn't be afraid of bearing its soul and facing up to its realities.. we either allow people to speak and express their opinions and ask their questions or we do not...
I think it's something to to with 'Patriotism'. You can be a 'terrorist' and accuse others of 'terrorism'.:confused:
Shit! If there were something underhand going on in the UK I'd like to know about it (as well as the 100's of other underhand things going on.lol), I wouldn't want anybody silenced and made an enemy for 'disrespecting' the UK.
Maybe that's what Patriotism is for?;)

[DuckiesDarling]

Bottom line, Jesse Ventura is a has been wrestler, actor and now politician. He ran for the governor of Minnesota on the backbones of his wrestling career and people wanting novelty. He expected to pull a Reagan and have his governorship catalpult him into the running as a Presidential candidate.. Didn't happen, so he goes all extreme with conspiracy theories for attention. Doesn't surprise me that people around the world can buy into his shit if you want to, but the people that know the real America never will. Sorry that's not something you google or watch on the net or read in the Guardian. It's from being born and bred here and having it ingrained in your soul. I could wax poetic for hours on end about the way I believe my country is miles ahead of others, but what's the point. I could go for hours on how shitty other people's countries are, but again, what's the point?

Do I agree with everything Falcon said, no, but that's my own personal opinion, do I understand why he posted it? Yeah, the constant bashing of the US by a few members on here who hide behind the castle of cowardice called anonymity. Anything is safe to say online, but when push comes to shove America is there.. where is yours?? Oh sorry, learning to wave the white flag from France? ;)

[void()]

If there really was a police state conspiracy
then the producers, director, and Jesse Ventura would have disappeared
before this was shown. Please apply critical thinking when watching
this.

Because if Mr. Ventura now disappears, it leads directly back to
them. It is better in their view to discredit an honorable man. They can
use labels such as 'sensationalist', 'crazy', 'unpatriotic' and so on.

Also because the ones ultimately leading it do not care. They are
arrogant enough to telegraph every move.


OP, if you do not believe the usa is the
greatest nation on the face of the earth, at least have the courtesy to
debate the true issues.

I am not the OP, however grant me a bit of advocacy. Can you reconcile
the Whiskey Rebellion, The Federal Reserve Bank? Can you reconcile the
fact the U.S. two years ago rescinded a ban on political assasinations?
Reconcile the fact the U.S. uses torture? Reconcile the U.S. no longer
follows the doctrines of the Geneva Conventions, has legislation in
place that protects its service members from trail in world courts for
war crimes ( Look Up SAPA)?

Some critical thinkers you both are. Maybe all that thinking makes you
blind to what is happening. Money buys power, power steals more money in
a perptual cycle aimed at keeping the rich and powerful that. It also
aims at keeping serfs, serfs.

Freedom? Oh it's a word meaning nothing left to lose.


Yeah, the constant bashing of the US by a
few members on here who hide behind the castle of cowardice called
anonymity. Anything is safe to say online, but when push comes to shove
America is there.. where is yours?? Oh sorry, learning to wave the white
flag from France?

I have put my name out in public on the internet and web before. It is
Benjamin K. Badgley. That's enough in these modern times for you to
locate me. Really anonymous huh?

Know why America is always there? Usurping resouces by any means.

That has been proven time and again. Also, Butler Smedely says a lot in
War is a Racket. He was a highly decorated marine, look it up. Or maybe
you're also blinded by critical thought.

[tenni]

hmm
Well, typical responses from certain citizens of the US: both in the TV progamme and comments from certain posters. I think that there has been sufficient activity in a lot of countries for people to question the actions of their government. I know that the actions of the police in my country has been disgusting within the past few years and most highlighted during a summit meeting of the G20 a few years ago. Never would I have expected such mass arrests as happened and almost all released without charges going forward.

The US has many technological advances but that has nothing to do with this video. It is a distraction and appeal to emotional support for a country.

Imo, the differences between Canada, Australia, and Britain when compared to the US is that the word "freedom" has and continues to play such a significant role in the mythology of the US. "Land of the Free" being the most obvious myth. I write myth but that doesn't mean falsehood.

Another difference is "conspiracy theorists". Neither Canada, Australia and Britain have as many "conspiracy theorists" entangled in explaining what has transpired in their countries' politically. There is the 911 conspirists, JFK conspirists, Landing on the moon conspirists etc. all entangled in the mythology and current events. It suggests to me a bit more paranoia seems to exist in the US than other countries. That is not all of the people living in the US and exclude paranoia in the other countries. It is just an interesting "fact" when it comes to how people rationalize traumatic or significant events.

I found the camera angles, multi picture in picture, quick cuts interesting. They seem to be used to create a certain tone.

Very good points Void.

[DuckiesDarling]

Void? Seriously, for resources??? ROFLMAO what country spent billions on rebuilding countries it bombed to hell and back to free an oppressed people.. yeah we did it for resources. Explains why we are in debt.

You have posted your name but it pretty much points to your self published book of poetry. You have also publicly posted how you were renouncing your citzenship and leaving with your wife for another country. I have no problem questioning things my country does, i have a problem with people who don't know my country bashing my country, do you see the difference??? I would really hope you do.

[void()]

I have no problem questioning things my country does, i have a problem with people who don't know my country bashing my country, do you see the difference??? I would really hope you do.

And I'm someone who knows your country because I was born a natural citizen of it. So do you say I'm bashing the country?

We got technology from Japan. Oil from Iraq, oil in Afghanistan plus opium for morphine and other narcotics. 'Nam was an attempt to establish a point of control over China, plus opium was there as well. We get toys from Laos, Taiwan, Malaysia. Cheap labor is a resource. We let Monsanto develop a super corn that allowed us to out produce every other nation, including Mexico, where our now immigrants come from because they can no longer be farmers.

Proof is there, well documented, not really all that obscured either. So if some don't see, can only figure it's blindness.

Yeah, that's my poetry. _I Slam Doors_ is the title. You recently posted about the ease of looking people up. You have the knowledge and access to resources if you desired. Anyone does really.

Please try to avoid the words seriously and really. I get so annoyed with a nephew whom says them all day, along with epic. People should look up words before using them. No, I'm in a joking mood with you as I express this. And yes, for real, on an epic scale!

tenni, the reason other countries lack paranoia is because the governments in them fear their people. Here the people fear the government. Usually stands to reason, if there's smoke you have a fire somewhere.

[tenni]

Void

There is truth in what you post about fear. I do think that there are definitely fear of government in Canada, Australia and Britain too. It just seems that the US has more of these conspiracy theories and so you may be correct that there may be more fear of government in the US people? I don't know. Interesting point.

The US is very visible to us in other countries due to its world dominance. Our media covers the US while the US media and knowledge of other countries is much much less. Hell, our countries are neighbours and most US people have difficulty identifying our PM. We do a lot more about the US. There is truth that unless you are living somewhere you do not really experience it fully. However, we do know and understand the US. Don't ever think that we do not. There are some things that we do not accept or understand from a similar enough perspective like guns and the mentality of the US people towards guns and healthcare...lol

It is always interesting to get someone from outside of your country to tell you what they see. Whether it matches or not is debatable.

[void()]

Void

There is truth in what you post about fear. I do think that there are definitely fear of government in Canada, Australia and Britain too. It just seems that the US has more of these conspiracy theories and so you may be correct that there may be more fear of government in the US people? I don't know. Interesting point.

The US is very visible to us in other countries due to its world dominance. Our media covers the US while the US media and knowledge of other countries is much much less. Hell, our countries are neighbours and most US people have difficulty identifying our PM. We do more a lot about the US. There is truth that unless you are living somewhere you do not really experience it fully. However, we do know and understand the US. Don't ever think that we do not.

It is always interesting to get someone from outside of your country to tell you what they see. Whether it matches or not is debatable.

When in the service, I was taught we were as soldiers representatives of the U.S.. This meant we should respect the locality we were stationed in, laws, customs and so on. Which led us having to keep abreast of other countries. Right off the top of my head though, would need to google for the PM.

Point being, I at least could and would if a desire or need arose to know that. I can understand you saying many others would not. I do not think anyone outside the U.S. does not understand. Believing that would be tantamount to arrogance. While I may be proud of who I am, humility is also part of who I am. No problem to admitting ignorance here. Ignorance can be cured, stupidity can not.

Grow tired of jingoistic, xenophobic stupidity uttered by country mates. Grow tired of having a different view only to be told I'm a joke, or in error. Know what I know.

[Long Duck Dong]

void, you forgot the push for control over the pacific cos its one of the most strategic military points in the southern hemisphere.... and the US knows it..... which is part of the reason why the us is ( on the surface ) moving at a rapid rate to get their military bases established in the pacific ( roflmao )

you may wanna look very closely at the US interest in the pacific ( not so much NZ and australia ) and what china is up to......and ask yourself why the US is suddenly so nervous about NZ siding with china and forming very close ties with china, not the us.... and how much of the NZ anti nuclear stance / anti war stance, has resulted in NZ shifting alliances......

china has long been a sleeping giant..and its starting to awake.... the us is not so much doing a resource grab as much as its starting to count the beans and realise that there is a bigger player in the world markets and there is not enough beans for everybody.....

[tenni]

"xenophobic stupidity"

Void
Almost all outside the US know who Obama is. We know about the dispute as to his birth country. We know about the US fiscal errors. (oh yes we do. I knew years ago and friends who have work business connection with the US knew exactly what Bush's fiscal policy was doing to the US. Our media was discussing these policies too at the time because US fiscal policies impact Canadians) We know who Hillary Clinton is and what she does. Many outside of the US know who Mitt Romney is. Some know who Paul Ryan is. They are not even elected US officials and most Canadians know who Mitt Romney is and what he looks like. We know the US constitution but not to memory.

Where things become less firm is US values. Generally, I would guess that most Canadians have some understanding but it may be wrong as far as some posters here might say. We are your fek'n neighbours and share a continent. In fact, we own more of the continent than the US. What is the US citizen's "excuse" not to know our PM? Xenophobic stupidity?

[falcondfw]

Prickly lot aintcha? I could give u 50 reasons easily from the top of my head why my own country is the best place on earth in which to live.. I can also give u 50 why it is shite.. just as folk from France can about their country and from the Netherlands, theirs; Oz, Australia; Iran (yes even poor old much maligned Iran), Iran, and am bloody sure the Israelis think that of their place. We are a subjective lot we human beings.. we have illusions, sometimes delusions, and we stick to them... we buy in to our country's propaganda and education and we puff up our breasts and say as the Scots do "Wha's like us?" and they are a bunch of chip on both shoulder arseholes an' all..they are also the warmest most welcoming, funniest and loving people I know.. a nation of contradictions... like every other people in every other country.

It is all crap... there is no greatest country on earth.. unless u consider power as equating with great... and that I do not and never have... each country is different and each has things which leaves everyone else standing as also rans.. and each has things about which it should be fucking ashamed... past and present... beat ur chest boys and girls if u like.. believe what ur told and read because the reality is u haven't a clue any more than I do... unless u know every country on earth like the back of ur hand which no one does and no one can... I love my country more than any other.. but I am not blinded by what my education taught me, or the media tells me, or my government, Scottish or UK tries to convince me of.. I question too much and read too much, know too much and know not enough...we can never know enough.. we are human beings.. we live in places where there is good and bad.. which are free and also not free.. our idea of liberty is not that of one from another land... from a culture which understand liberty as something different from we in the west.. and we knock it because it does not match our own vision of what freedom and liberty is... as they do our own..

We are different that's all.. not better or worse, not more or less free, neither greater or less great... and we should not get offended when others question our divine right to greatness..but we do... we should grateful for it stops us getting above ourselves... there is nothing wrong with being taken down a peg or two when we get too cocky and arrogant... The British (as well as other nations)have this feeling of greatness no less than Americans.. and God.. how we and the world have suffered for their arrogant claims of superiority and greatness over other peoples... we are different. And that is the best we can say for now...
Fran,
I do disagree with you. And that is ok. Disagreement kinda helps out in debates. lol. And as respectful as you are of other points of view, it is ok for us to have different points of view.
I just saw the OP as posting just to be a USA hater. It is a common tactic to post something from youtube and then run when people don't exactly agree with your point of view.

[falcondfw]

Gear,
Yes I did. And i freely admit it.
Because, of late, there have been WAY TOO MANY bash America threads.
We are not perfect.
We make mistakes.
And I know this is going back a few years, but if it was not for us, you would be speaking German now!
Further, who is the FIRST country to ANY crisis scene? Who was the FIRST country over to the 2005 tsunami in asia?
You want to keep going? I can! We get absolutely NO RESPECT for the amount of humanitarian efforts we do. And i am freaking tired of it.
And I will not put up with it any more. When you in England, Scotland, Wales, and Australia (like the OP), get off your asses and actually lead the way, THEN you can talk. Most of you have no Fing clue what Americans do around the world, because it is done through private charities and most people, except Bill Gates and George Soros, do not want the publicity for how much they give.
By the way, which countries around the world gave money for Hurricane Katrina 7 years ago and for Hurricane Issac this year? Oh, that's right. that would be NONE OF YOU!
You want to bitch and moan about how the USA does things? Then start freakin being as generous and humanitarian as we are!!! Other than that STFU!!!!!!!!!! I am sick of it!!!!!!

[falcondfw]

This is what Americans says about Americans, not me, what are we supposed to think when your own people makes this kind of videos. Please don't be so defensive, it's either right or wrong, so if you can prove it to be wrong, please show the rest of the world so.

Golden,
You are correct. I am defensive. Because I have seen way too many "Bash America" threads recently, and I am tired of playing Mr. Nice Guy and putting up with the BS.
I don't need to defend the USA. We do what we do. If you cannot find evidence of the good we do around the world, then I pity you. Jessie, the bodyless, ventura, was tossed out of office in Minnesota, because he was an innefective governor. He is trying to remain relevant by doing this and other youtube videos. ANYBODY can do a youtube video. I have a friend who is totally deaf, but she does cover songs on youtube. Actually, she is not bad. But my point is ANYONE with a webcam can do videos on youtube! It has as much credibility as MSNBC.
Before reposting something as inflammatory as this BS, you would do well to investigate and actually check out the "facts" in the video.
And like i said, I don't need to prove the video false. Just look around you. You are in the Pacific region. Who is the first country to help out in ANY disaster region? Who gives the most money to help out? That should be proof enough.

[falcondfw]

Because if Mr. Ventura now disappears, it leads directly back to
them. It is better in their view to discredit an honorable man. They can
use labels such as 'sensationalist', 'crazy', 'unpatriotic' and so on.

Also because the ones ultimately leading it do not care. They are
arrogant enough to telegraph every move.



I am not the OP, however grant me a bit of advocacy. Can you reconcile
the Whiskey Rebellion, The Federal Reserve Bank? Can you reconcile the
fact the U.S. two years ago rescinded a ban on political assasinations?
Reconcile the fact the U.S. uses torture? Reconcile the U.S. no longer
follows the doctrines of the Geneva Conventions, has legislation in
place that protects its service members from trail in world courts for
war crimes ( Look Up SAPA)?

Some critical thinkers you both are. Maybe all that thinking makes you
blind to what is happening. Money buys power, power steals more money in
a perptual cycle aimed at keeping the rich and powerful that. It also
aims at keeping serfs, serfs.

Freedom? Oh it's a word meaning nothing left to lose.



I have put my name out in public on the internet and web before. It is
Benjamin K. Badgley. That's enough in these modern times for you to
locate me. Really anonymous huh?

Know why America is always there? Usurping resouces by any means.

That has been proven time and again. Also, Butler Smedely says a lot in
War is a Racket. He was a highly decorated marine, look it up. Or maybe
you're also blinded by critical thought.

Void,
As i have said in the past and said here again, we are not perfect. We make mistakes like anyone else.
BUT, what the OP was posting was sensationalist BS and only designed to bring down America. I used to respect Jesse when he was a wrestler (yes, I know it is fake). But ever since he entered the political arena, he became a total shill and went wherever the dollars led. I NEVER liked him as Governor and thought the whole gig was a sham and a scam.
Void, I respect you and what you have to say. Your arguments are always well thought out and open and honest.
But void, it all depends what you consider torture. Do i consider waterboarding torture? no. Especially not when it saves the lives of American troops in combat.
Further, as for protection from the world courts for our military, we have the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) which is FAR more stringent than ANY world court. Soldiers are frequently tried for "war crimes" or other things in the UCMJ and they often end up spending time in Ft. Leavenworth, KS. I saw it firsthand, several times.
Are there idiots in the military? HELL YES!!!! and they do bad things. Are some of those things covered up? HELL YES!!!! But it is just as easy to pay off someone in the world court as it is to pay them off in a military tribunal.
I thought you served at one point. If so, I am disappointed in how you feel. I realize there may be reasons for it, but look at the good your fellow soldiers do around the world, as opposed to the bad they do. There will NEVER be a perfect situation. The military has so many members. And not all of them are good guys.
But, ask the people of Indonesia who was there for them in 2005 and I think you will get an overwhelming thank you for being American.

And, by the way, the veiled insults are not necessary. My critical thinking works just fine. What makes me mad is a lack of appreciation around the world AND from people in America. It is very simple. If you are here and you don't like the way things are done, either vote to change things or GTFO (Get the #@#! Out). If people do not vote, they only have themselves to blame for the government we have. If they still cannot handle it, then they need to go to a country they can handle.

[darkeyes]

Bottom line, Jesse Ventura is a has been wrestler, actor and now politician. He ran for the governor of Minnesota on the backbones of his wrestling career and people wanting novelty. He expected to pull a Reagan and have his governorship catalpult him into the running as a Presidential candidate.. Didn't happen, so he goes all extreme with conspiracy theories for attention. Doesn't surprise me that people around the world can buy into his shit if you want to, but the people that know the real America never will. Sorry that's not something you google or watch on the net or read in the Guardian. It's from being born and bred here and having it ingrained in your soul. I could wax poetic for hours on end about the way I believe my country is miles ahead of others, but what's the point. I could go for hours on how shitty other people's countries are, but again, what's the point?

Do I agree with everything Falcon said, no, but that's my own personal opinion, do I understand why he posted it? Yeah, the constant bashing of the US by a few members on here who hide behind the castle of cowardice called anonymity. Anything is safe to say online, but when push comes to shove America is there.. where is yours?? Oh sorry, learning to wave the white flag from France? ;)


The bit in bold? That tells a lot... and is exactly why people of many countries are as they are about their country's greatness... it is what leads peoples to have contempt and loathing for those who are not of their country and allows governments to lead their young men and women to slaughter in the name of "our way of life"... and creates much of the bitterness on little web sites such as .com. Love of the place I live and was born in runs deep but it is not ingrained in my soul... I'm afraid I fought and won that battle against my country's rulers, media jingoism and the education systems attempt to turn me into an unquestioning and compliant individual of which they would be proud...

,,as for anonymity the web is relatively anonymous.. relatively.. but if people want to find us bad enough.. like the security services or the fuzz.. they can and do...and others...quite a few around the world have found that out.. and will again......they pay for it at cost of their freedom and even lives.. cowardice for making points on the web? For some maybe.. but no more than staying invisible all the time and nipping out and leaving blood on the carpet... but mostly it is not about bravery or cowardice, but people having a point to make.. people are far too prickly about criticism of both self and of country.. often it is unjustified and we defend ourselves and country as best we can.. but often it is justified and it is those who can open their eyes and see the justification that gives us much of our greatest hope of creating a true understanding in our world between all of its peoples..

The point about France I had to laugh at... in fact me jaw hit the floor... as is well known I love France and the French, but do criticise them for many things... including their Anglophobia and the racism which I see is institutionalised and runs deep among so many of its people.. their feelings of cultural and linguistic superiority over all other countries, their regular and destructive diplomatic and military adventures in their former colonies in Africa.. but running up the white flag? The people of the US were only too glad of the French in the Revolutionary war and the war of 1812 I seem to recall, for without them it is quite conceivable that both would have ended in defeat for the colonists of British America and the fledgling state we know as the US.. and there was no white flag flying when they bollocked Britain and the US for their actions over Iraq and withstood immense diplomatic and economic pressure.. and u tell any British person that France flies a white flag in the EU. U tell anyone who knows the slightest thing about history that they held up a white flag at Verdun.. it was an unworthy comment...

[falcondfw]

hmm
Well, typical responses from certain citizens of the US: both in the TV progamme and comments from certain posters. I think that there has been sufficient activity in a lot of countries for people to question the actions of their government. I know that the actions of the police in my country has been disgusting within the past few years and most highlighted during a summit meeting of the G20 a few years ago. Never would I have expected such mass arrests as happened and almost all released without charges going forward.

The US has many technological advances but that has nothing to do with this video. It is a distraction and appeal to emotional support for a country.

Imo, the differences between Canada, Australia, and Britain when compared to the US is that the word "freedom" has and continues to play such a significant role in the mythology of the US. "Land of the Free" being the most obvious myth. I write myth but that doesn't mean falsehood.

Another difference is "conspiracy theorists". Neither Canada, Australia and Britain have as many "conspiracy theorists" entangled in explaining what has transpired in their countries' politically. There is the 911 conspirists, JFK conspirists, Landing on the moon conspirists etc. all entangled in the mythology and current events. It suggests to me a bit more paranoia seems to exist in the US than other countries. That is not all of the people living in the US and exclude paranoia in the other countries. It is just an interesting "fact" when it comes to how people rationalize traumatic or significant events.

I found the camera angles, multi picture in picture, quick cuts interesting. They seem to be used to create a certain tone.

Very good points Void.

For one of the first times, i agree with you Tenni. Well thought out and well argued post. Gives me pause to think.

As i have said, we make mistakes. And yes, there are a lot of things the US Government does that I STRONGLY disagree with.

But, any rational thinking person knows they will not agree with everything their government does around the world. ANY government. The government is trying to be all things to all people and that is always a recipe for failure and will always make some folks mad.
There are a TON of conspiracy theorists in he USA. You have the 9/11 theorists - ALL of which has been disproved by plain science and math. You have the JFK theorists - Most of which has been disproved by science and math, but the buggers keep popping their heads up. lol. You have the birthers - which believe Obama's Hawaiian birth certificate is a fake. None of which has been disproved by science or math.

The camera angles, pip, and quick cuts are there for a reason. They are trying to make their point seem credible. Heaven forbid if the actual facts should get in the way.

[falcondfw]

"tenni, the reason other countries lack paranoia is because the governments in them fear their people. Here the people fear the government. Usually stands to reason, if there's smoke you have a fire somewhere."

BULLSHIT void!!!! Yes, we fear aspects of our government, but where around the world do governments fear their citizens? Iran? North Korea? Cuba? Venezuela? Oh that's right, people are clamoring to get into this country because we have such an evil, oppressive government. GET A CLUE!!!

[darkeyes]

Void? Seriously, for resources??? ROFLMAO what country spent billions on rebuilding countries it bombed to hell and back to free an oppressed people.. yeah we did it for resources. Explains why we are in debt.

It very much depends on what u consider resources... I suspect a large factor was the resource of several hundred million people and to help make them sufficiently prosperous as to be able to maintain relatively large military forces with which to oppose the USSR and its satellites in Western Europe as a bulwark against Soviet Communism as much as altruism.. as well as allowing the stationing of American military forces in those countries to boot.. elsewhere and subsequently too American generosity has not all been simply because American governments feel like being generous.. other countries do the same.. the British were very good at it historically... less so now but they still don't give away that much simply out of the goodness of their hearts...

[falcondfw]

"The point about France I had to laugh at... in fact me jaw hit the floor... as is well known I love France and the French, but do criticise them for many things... including their Anglophobia and the racism which I see is institutionalised and runs deep among so many of its people.. their feelings of cultural and linguistic superiority over all other countries, their regular and destructive diplomatic and military adventures in their former colonies in Africa.. but running up the white flag? The people of the US were only too glad of the French in the Revolutionary war and the war of 1812 I seem to recall, for without them it is quite conceivable that both would have ended in defeat for the colonists of British America and the fledgling state we know as the US.. and there was no white flag flying when they bollocked Britain and the US for their actions over Iraq and withstood immense diplomatic and economic pressure.. and u tell any British person that France flies a white flag in the EU. U tell anyone who knows the slightest thing about history that they held up a white flag at Verdun.. it was an unworthy comment..."

Fran, you make very good historical points. But that was 200 years ago. My question is - what the hell happened? All of the wars since then, they have run up the white flag. At least with Switzerland, everyone knows what they will get. Totally neutral, impartial. With France, these days, it's like "Yes! We will defend our country! JUST KIDDING!" lol.

[jamieknyc]

Without commenting one way or another on the merits of the political issues....

In countries that are seriously police states, the only people who criticize the state on the Internet are people who are dedicated enough to be willing to become political prisoners. Boobs posting rants on Internet forums don't exist in, say, Syria or Iran.

Leaving aside the obvious police states, you can do far more in the US than you could get away with een in most democracies- even across the border in Toronto, you could be arrested for a lot of things that are perfectly legal 100 miles away in Buffalo.

But one thing that is imnpossible to explain to anyone who is not American is the inefficiency andfragmentation of US government and police foces. You could commit a crime here in New York, and unless you did something very serious, you could go across the river to New Jersey and never be caught. And if you did get caught, you have a very small chance of ever being incarcerated.

[darkeyes]

"The point about France I had to laugh at... in fact me jaw hit the floor... as is well known I love France and the French, but do criticise them for many things... including their Anglophobia and the racism which I see is institutionalised and runs deep among so many of its people.. their feelings of cultural and linguistic superiority over all other countries, their regular and destructive diplomatic and military adventures in their former colonies in Africa.. but running up the white flag? The people of the US were only too glad of the French in the Revolutionary war and the war of 1812 I seem to recall, for without them it is quite conceivable that both would have ended in defeat for the colonists of British America and the fledgling state we know as the US.. and there was no white flag flying when they bollocked Britain and the US for their actions over Iraq and withstood immense diplomatic and economic pressure.. and u tell any British person that France flies a white flag in the EU. U tell anyone who knows the slightest thing about history that they held up a white flag at Verdun.. it was an unworthy comment..."

Fran, you make very good historical points. But that was 200 years ago. My question is - what the hell happened? All of the wars since then, they have run up the white flag. At least with Switzerland, everyone knows what they will get. Totally neutral, impartial. With France, these days, it's like "Yes! We will defend our country! JUST KIDDING!" lol.
..and that is unworthy of u Falcon.. anyone in Europe knows that the French defend French interests harder than just about anyone else in Europe.. cheap points about white flags can be made about any country.. even yours... and certainly my own.. successive French governments of recent years have defended their corner as hard as anyone.. the French say about the British that they are cowards and having sold the French out because of Dunkirk, and the British talk of the Italians in a similar manner and of being military buffoons because of how they were perceived to have acted in WW2.. such remarks are cheap and they bear no relation to reality.. it borders on racism... if it is not in fact so unless it can be backed up with fact...

[Gearbox]

Gear,
Yes I did. And i freely admit it.
Because, of late, there have been WAY TOO MANY bash America threads.
We are not perfect.
We make mistakes.
And I know this is going back a few years, but if it was not for us, you would be speaking German now!
Further, who is the FIRST country to ANY crisis scene? Who was the FIRST country over to the 2005 tsunami in asia?
You want to keep going? I can! We get absolutely NO RESPECT for the amount of humanitarian efforts we do. And i am freaking tired of it.
And I will not put up with it any more. When you in England, Scotland, Wales, and Australia (like the OP), get off your asses and actually lead the way, THEN you can talk. Most of you have no Fing clue what Americans do around the world, because it is done through private charities and most people, except Bill Gates and George Soros, do not want the publicity for how much they give.
By the way, which countries around the world gave money for Hurricane Katrina 7 years ago and for Hurricane Issac this year? Oh, that's right. that would be NONE OF YOU!
You want to bitch and moan about how the USA does things? Then start freakin being as generous and humanitarian as we are!!! Other than that STFU!!!!!!!!!! I am sick of it!!!!!!
Just one request there Falcondfw sweetheart: GET A FUCKING GRIP FOR FUCK SAKE MAN!:eek:
We do NOT shut the fuck up on the net because some uppety fascist thinks he's defending his castle from terorists and lashes out with his Hollywood version of history at foreigners, and he/she is 'sick of it'.lol

Here is what's happening in reality (the one that rational people are in).
1. Goldenfinger posts an AMERICAN vid of an AMERICAN talking about conspiracies in AMERICA with other AMERICANS. He asks if it's fact or fiction. Doesn't say it's fact!
2. You notice that Goldenfinger is not AMERICAN!:eek2:
3. You somehow supect him of anti-American agenda, and go completely fucking gaga!
4. You spin off arragant and ill informed insults to all other countries and people who are not American. Even attack fellow Americans who don't agree with you.
5. You give plenty of incentive to any Brit or anybody who doesn't follow your ravings to 'attack' back at your insults and fuel a big old pointless feud.
6. You STILL think HE is a troll with an agenda, and YOU are not. Yet it is YOU doing the work of one.

Would be a great idea at this point for you to STFU, now wouldn't it?

[tenni]

"we are the greatest country in the world and for good reason!" :disgust:

Not to be too intentional but what country has citizens who post on another country's web site origin that the host country is not the greatest country in the world? :yikes2:..lol


Come on Canada is the greatest country in the world! ;)

We, Canucks, can prove it.

We have been identified as the best country in the world to live in a couple of years in a row within the past decade.
We are falling in the ranking though(damn fek'n conservative government....well other factors too) sigh..

The USA has never been declared the best place in the world to live..(period) It is never or rarely in the top ten.

It really depends upon what criteria that you are using though.

Come on Warrior poet.....Admit it on a Canadian website for bisexuals that Canada is the greatest country in the world to have drew as a Canuck to start this website..:smirlove2 :smilies15


Oh are we off topic yet? :love87:


crap I can not find the delete button....image the flag gone.

[pepperjack]

Gear,
Yes I did. And i freely admit it.
Because, of late, there have been WAY TOO MANY bash America threads.
We are not perfect.
We make mistakes.
And I know this is going back a few years, but if it was not for us, you would be speaking German now!
Further, who is the FIRST country to ANY crisis scene? Who was the FIRST country over to the 2005 tsunami in asia?
You want to keep going? I can! We get absolutely NO RESPECT for the amount of humanitarian efforts we do. And i am freaking tired of it.
And I will not put up with it any more. When you in England, Scotland, Wales, and Australia (like the OP), get off your asses and actually lead the way, THEN you can talk. Most of you have no Fing clue what Americans do around the world, because it is done through private charities and most people, except Bill Gates and George Soros, do not want the publicity for how much they give.
By the way, which countries around the world gave money for Hurricane Katrina 7 years ago and for Hurricane Issac this year? Oh, that's right. that would be NONE OF YOU!
You want to bitch and moan about how the USA does things? Then start freakin being as generous and humanitarian as we are!!! Other than that STFU!!!!!!!!!! I am sick of it!!!!!!


Wow! This is a very passionate & spirited debate. I can agree with portions of so many posts & yet simultaneously disagree with others. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say this post reinforces how Mitt Romney ended his recent powerful speech at the RNC when saying " we cannot lead from behind," which is exactly where Obama has put us on the world stage. By the same token, I used to enjoy Jesse Ventura's Conspiracy Theories episodes. I thought they were thought provoking, entertaining. And as far as his colorful, checkered past....only in America could he evolve in such a way. And also, I'm an immigrant, arriving here from Europe in the late 50's. When in my mid-20's I took a job traveling cross-country, coast to coast, & spent many solitary hours behind the wheel marveling at the magnificent beauty of this country. And finally, most recently, I felt gratitude in my heart toward The Almighty for placing me here as part of my destiny.:2cents:

[DuckiesDarling]

Just got back from Labor Day dining with parents, hamburgers and tater tots and listening to someone bitch cause her soap opera was pre-empted by golf. I have caught up to the thread but I'm not going to respond to each of you. I am sick of tired of people picking and choosing one part of a post to try and tear down. If you can't take it in context don't bother taking it.

I am American. I love and respect my country and countrymen. I believe in the legal system for the most part and I believe in voting to have your say in how the government works. Jamie makes a very good point about the inefficiencies of police across multi jurisdictions, if someone is careful and doesn't commit mass murder you can literally go forever just one state over and not even be picked up. Same was true of a certain someone who went across a few county lines and would not have been caught until they went to renew a driver's license next year, and that's only if they happened to check for wants and warrants at the time, not even sure they are required. But it would have given them an updated address when they dusted off the bench warrant for FTA.

America is still the land many immigrants seek, some legally and some illegally. We have a more divided country than ever at this point and sadly a lot of it is not even over actual politics but over the color of a person's skin. That sickens me. I watched a speech by one of the Labor Union leaders from Louisville on the news as they were talking about the current state of the economy. He believes that it's getting better, especially in Louisville. The need for machinists is at an all time high due to a new plant opening. He further stated that when Obama was elected he inherited a royal mess that he publicly stated would take more than one term to clean up and that for the most part he's done what he said he would. He knows where his vote is going and he is a Republican.. go fig. Some people can see the forest for the trees.

I don't really care what most of you think about America but I will not idly sit back and let you just bash a country because you have an ingrained problem with military solutions to conflict. Since you love to go mention history, do look at the times America has responded with force and then look at how many times it was at the direct request of the United Nations.

Please tell me how huminatarian efforts to save a population from the control of a despotic leader who was butchering his own people is us seeking resources in human beings? They don't come to work for America, they don't pay a tax to America they are not entitled to become American citizens. For many of them, they are their own person for the first time in their lives.

Even now around the world ahead of the pull out of Nato forces from Afghanistan you are hearing of increased Taliban attacks including the beheading of children. It will never stop.

I am not blind to America's faults but people who live in glass houses should damned well not throw stones.

Jesse Venture is nothing but a joke who once stated that the only real hunting is the hunting of men.. then admitted he'd never seen combat. So yeah, I'm really gonna believe anything he says without verifying it in triplicate and then again just for good measure.

[IanBorthwick]

I couldn't get past the first five minutes....it is sensationalist television, not journalism. The intent is to entertain you long enough to stick around for the commercials. If there really was a police state conspiracy then the producers, director, and Jesse Ventura would have disappeared before this was shown. Please apply critical thinking when watching this.


Wisdom, in a nutshell. brief, accurate, concise.

And I do have to say,t he show looked interesting, in that it makes you THINK.And I do love things that make your mind go in different directions. So as entertainment goes..I was entertained for a few, and in that regard I cannot fault it.

[darkeyes]

I don't really care what most of you think about America but I will not idly sit back and let you just bash a country because you have an ingrained problem with military solutions to conflict. Since you love to go mention history, do look at the times America has responded with force and then look at how many times it was at the direct request of the United Nations.


Relatively rarely actually... and several of those actions was the UN backing the US play at US instigation..Korea for instance.. and they only got that through cos the Soviets didn't turn up at the Security Council... but no matter, compared to the sheer number of US military adventures since the creation of the UN, US action in support of the UN is a rare event... and tootling along behind usually was good ole UK... and "responded by force" is an interesting phrase... quite often it hasn't been responding at all but good ole fashioned aggression, covertly or overtly in support of American interests... I suppose it all comes down to the interpretation of the word "responding"...

[tenni]

Well, I'm not sure if we are off topic as far as freedom and conspiracy in the tv show but it is my understanding that the US has either never signed a UN agreement or backed out of UN international agreements that it did not sponsor. Not a one but it was a while ago that I was told this. So, all the times that the US has used force it was with cow towing to US interests and not the other way around. It was backroom negotiations long before any public statement. I guess parts of the US are censored if some do not know this. All of our governments do this censoring at an increasing rate...sadly. Freedom of information gets more and more difficult each year contrary to laws passed.

[falcondfw]

It very much depends on what u consider resources... I suspect a large factor was the resource of several hundred million people and to help make them sufficiently prosperous as to be able to maintain relatively large military forces with which to oppose the USSR and its satellites in Western Europe as a bulwark against Soviet Communism as much as altruism.. as well as allowing the stationing of American military forces in those countries to boot.. elsewhere and subsequently too American generosity has not all been simply because American governments feel like being generous.. other countries do the same.. the British were very good at it historically... less so now but they still don't give away that much simply out of the goodness of their hearts...

Fran, you may be accurate about the British Government in this quote, but you are dead wrong about the American government! Who is the first nation to send aid to any kind of earthquake, tsunami, or typhoon zone? That's right. The American government. And I am tired of people falsifying the record. You know that is the truth. The whole world does.

[falcondfw]

Just one request there Falcondfw sweetheart: GET A FUCKING GRIP FOR FUCK SAKE MAN!:eek:
We do NOT shut the fuck up on the net because some uppety fascist thinks he's defending his castle from terorists and lashes out with his Hollywood version of history at foreigners, and he/she is 'sick of it'.lol

Here is what's happening in reality (the one that rational people are in).
1. Goldenfinger posts an AMERICAN vid of an AMERICAN talking about conspiracies in AMERICA with other AMERICANS. He asks if it's fact or fiction. Doesn't say it's fact!
2. You notice that Goldenfinger is not AMERICAN!:eek2:
3. You somehow supect him of anti-American agenda, and go completely fucking gaga!
4. You spin off arragant and ill informed insults to all other countries and people who are not American. Even attack fellow Americans who don't agree with you.
5. You give plenty of incentive to any Brit or anybody who doesn't follow your ravings to 'attack' back at your insults and fuel a big old pointless feud.
6. You STILL think HE is a troll with an agenda, and YOU are not. Yet it is YOU doing the work of one.

Would be a great idea at this point for you to STFU, now wouldn't it?

Gear,
You may see me as a troll. That is your right. As long as Drew allows us the freedom to see each other the way we want.
However, I am sick to death of the "Bash the USA" threads. There have been many over the past several months and I bloody well am NOT going to put up with them anymore. Call me a right-wing fascist. Call me a troll. Call me what you want. I am freakin sick of it.
When people who have never lived in this country, and who have no clue how the freakin internals of this country work post conspiracy theorist videos or videos that "question" the thought process in this country, they are doing it for one reason and one reason only. To tear down this country and to downgrade it to make it "just like every other nation on Earth". In other words, the Obama Agenda.
We are not like every other nation on Earth. We are the first ones to ANY trouble spot on the Earth. We are the business leaders too. We do a hell of a lot for this World and if you or anyone else can't handle it . . . TOO BAD! Maybe if your passion was more directed at your government, THEY would be leading the way into trouble zones.

[falcondfw]

"we are the greatest country in the world and for good reason!" :disgust:

Not to be too intentional but what country has citizens who post on another country's web site origin that the host country is not the greatest country in the world? :yikes2:..lol


Come on Canada is the greatest country in the world! ;)

We, Canucks, can prove it.

We have been identified as the best country in the world to live in a couple of years in a row within the past decade.
We are falling in the ranking though(damn fek'n conservative government....well other factors too) sigh..

The USA has never been declared the best place in the world to live..(period) It is never or rarely in the top ten.

It really depends upon what criteria that you are using though.

Come on Warrior poet.....Admit it on a Canadian website for bisexuals that Canada is the greatest country in the world to have drew as a Canuck to start this website..:smirlove2 :smilies15


Oh are we off topic yet? :love87:


crap I can not find the delete button....image the flag gone.

You are funny tenni. Thanks for bringing a little levity to the situation.

[void()]

BULLSHIT void!!!! Yes, we fear aspects of our government, but where around the world do governments fear their citizens?

Belgium, who has lived in anarchy for nearly three years now.

Sweeden, who has a true democratic government upon the local / municipal level as well as national level. People can vote leaders out, even daily.

[void()]

You have the 9/11 theorists - ALL of which has been disproved by plain science and math. You have the JFK theorists - Most of which has been disproved by science and math, but the buggers keep popping their heads up.

Here's a rational question regarding 9/11. If it were indeed and in fact a terrorist act of war, why were none of the neocon politicians targets? Could it be the neocons knew it was coming? Maybe they were never considered targets. Why not? I know if I'm fighting a war, first targets would be leaders. Figure you'd aim at leaders too, only makes sense, right?

[falcondfw]

Here's a rational question regarding 9/11. If it were indeed and in fact a terrorist act of war, why were none of the neocon politicians targets? Could it be the neocons knew it was coming? Maybe they were never considered targets. Why not? I know if I'm fighting a war, first targets would be leaders. Figure you'd aim at leaders too, only makes sense, right?

Ok. That is a disgusting conspiracy theorist post. In case you forgot about the plane that went down in Shankesville? That plane was headed for Congress or the White House. Or maybe you forgot about the plane that hit the Pentagon?
And they did try to take down "the leaders". They tried to take down the FINANCIAL leaders or the symbols thereof.
Sorry, what you asked was not a rational question. It was conspiracy theorist BS! plain and simple.

[void()]

Ok. That is a disgusting conspiracy theorist post. In case you forgot about the plane that went down in Shankesville? That plane was headed for Congress or the White House. Or maybe you forgot about the plane that hit the Pentagon?
And they did try to take down "the leaders". They tried to take down the FINANCIAL leaders or the symbols thereof.
Sorry, what you asked was not a rational question. It was conspiracy theorist BS! plain and simple.

Actually it was rational. Where are the flight records for any of those planes? Where is the empirical proof? Symbols mean shit, terrorists, especially those whom have fought war for thousands of years would not strike a symbol. It means nothing save to rattle a saber. They would have been precise, been clearly open and public.

These guys are beyond rattling sabers. They want us all dead. They'd hit the leaders openly, without room left for question. At least that's the image our leaders seek to impart of 'evil Muslims'.

[DuckiesDarling]

Gee Void, United Flight 93 was well documented along with phone calls and phone messages the passengers left to their loved ones. Do not mock the sacfrice of those few brave Americans to save the lives of many.

[darkeyes]

I am not referring to emergency humanitarian aid which really is a drop in the ocean compared to the normal aid budgets which exist for development... whether it is always first or not I have no idea, but suspect it is not always so although the US sure as hell has far more resources to be able to react more quickly and with greater generosity than anyone else.. and there is evidence that this is often so, but I'm not sure that the evidence exists that it is always so... but when it is, very good.. brill in fact and I applaud it.. just as I will applaud every country which gets off its arse, reacts swiftly and selflessly does what it can to help in such instances and not all do.. but it is not emergency aid with which I'm concerned, important though that certainly is.... if I sound damning by faint praise I cant help that, but it isn't meant to be.. for I do I know my own government keeps telling us that it was first to act in such circumstances and about that there is sufficient evidence of great fibbery on their part for me to scoff at their claims.. and trust me on this, British Government emergency aid (as opposed to emergency aid provided by private donation through appeals and charities and other aid organisations) sometimes although not always seems to me to be somewhat niggardly and often grudged.. I may doubt very often your government's actions and even motives when it comes to emergency aid, but compared to my own it is, even allowing for the relative disparity in the wealth and resource of our two countries, generally swifter and far more generous.

[Gearbox]

Gear,
You may see me as a troll. That is your right. As long as Drew allows us the freedom to see each other the way we want.
However, I am sick to death of the "Bash the USA" threads. There have been many over the past several months and I bloody well am NOT going to put up with them anymore. Call me a right-wing fascist. Call me a troll. Call me what you want. I am freakin sick of it.
When people who have never lived in this country, and who have no clue how the freakin internals of this country work post conspiracy theorist videos or videos that "question" the thought process in this country, they are doing it for one reason and one reason only. To tear down this country and to downgrade it to make it "just like every other nation on Earth". In other words, the Obama Agenda.
We are not like every other nation on Earth. We are the first ones to ANY trouble spot on the Earth. We are the business leaders too. We do a hell of a lot for this World and if you or anyone else can't handle it . . . TOO BAD! Maybe if your passion was more directed at your government, THEY would be leading the way into trouble zones.
Your country made that vid! Americans are free to make those vids as much as they damn well please. It's when they are NOT that you'd need to get some psychotic ranting done.
If YOU don't like THAT particular freedom, don't expect those who do to give a toss. But feel free to email the producers and demand they cancle the next season. I'm sure they'll repect you for the fine upstanding citizen as you are, as aparently YOU are the first there to help any body in the world etc and it's ony fair that YOU get to dom the world. They will not put you on the crazy extension, no sir!:rolleyes:

Lets pretend that you can handle watching an American vid, and start the thread again. That would be lovely.

[CelticBerserker]

Any movie that features Alex Jones as some kind of expert is not worthy of serious debate. That man is a glory hunting mirror-fucking whore. That's the only thing I can add to this debate at present.

[falcondfw]

I am not referring to emergency humanitarian aid which really is a drop in the ocean compared to the normal aid budgets which exist for development... whether it is always first or not I have no idea, but suspect it is not always so although the US sure as hell has far more resources to be able to react more quickly and with greater generosity than anyone else.. and there is evidence that this is often so, but I'm not sure that the evidence exists that it is always so... but when it is, very good.. brill in fact and I applaud it.. just as I will applaud every country which gets off its arse, reacts swiftly and selflessly does what it can to help in such instances and not all do.. but it is not emergency aid with which I'm concerned, important though that certainly is.... if I sound damning by faint praise I cant help that, but it isn't meant to be.. for I do I know my own government keeps telling us that it was first to act in such circumstances and about that there is sufficient evidence of great fibbery on their part for me to scoff at their claims.. and trust me on this, British Government emergency aid (as opposed to emergency aid provided by private donation through appeals and charities and other aid organisations) sometimes although not always seems to me to be somewhat niggardly and often grudged.. I may doubt very often your government's actions and even motives when it comes to emergency aid, but compared to my own it is, even allowing for the relative disparity in the wealth and resource of our two countries, generally swifter and far more generous.

Fran,
Is there anything the USA does that you approve of? Or for that matter is there anything ANY government does that you approve of?
I point out things that we have done around the world and all you can say is "well, of course you do, because you have the resources."
WTF? are you serious? How about just appreciating the humaneness of the American people and government, instead of always trying to rip us a new one. You just spent your vacation here. I assume you would not spend your pounds in a place that was just so evil. So get off it.

[falcondfw]

Your country made that vid! Americans are free to make those vids as much as they damn well please. It's when they are NOT that you'd need to get some psychotic ranting done.
If YOU don't like THAT particular freedom, don't expect those who do to give a toss. But feel free to email the producers and demand they cancle the next season. I'm sure they'll repect you for the fine upstanding citizen as you are, as aparently YOU are the first there to help any body in the world etc and it's ony fair that YOU get to dom the world. They will not put you on the crazy extension, no sir!:rolleyes:

Lets pretend that you can handle watching an American vid, and start the thread again. That would be lovely.

Newsflash. I did watch the vid. It is a blatant attempt by a washed up person and politician to stay relevant by slamming those people who believe in this country, what it stands for, and the sacrifices so many have made. And, whether Americans made the vid or not (which they did) it is only useful for one purpose. Tearing down America.

I did not say we should get to DOM the world. I pointed out some of the good we do around the world. If you cannot deal with facts, petition your government to actually lead in something. Up until Obama, we have led the world in helping people who needed it. Now, we just apologize. For everything.

Jesse, the useless, had every right to make that video. It is also my right to point out what a loser he has become.

[void()]

Gee Void, United Flight 93 was well documented along with phone calls and phone messages the passengers left to their loved ones. Do not mock the sacfrice of those few brave Americans to save the lives of many.

Funny, don't recall mocking anyone. I'm asking for iron clad proof that the President of the U.S. at the time stated was available. I'm asking why there was no world court and publicly open trial held. No, we just look for a decade for a guy likely to have been busy with acting gigs, then shoot him and dump him overboard. And I'm mocking?

[darkeyes]

Fran,
Is there anything the USA does that you approve of? Or for that matter is there anything ANY government does that you approve of?
I point out things that we have done around the world and all you can say is "well, of course you do, because you have the resources."
WTF? are you serious? How about just appreciating the humaneness of the American people and government, instead of always trying to rip us a new one. You just spent your vacation here. I assume you would not spend your pounds in a place that was just so evil. So get off it.
I don't think the US is evil and certainly not the people of the US.. I do think ur political system stinks but then so I do my own and every other political system which exists on the planet so ur in good company.. do I think ur government does good? Of course it does.. all governments, even the worst of them do good.. they also do much which is not good... arguably more.. And when any government of any country does good I will say so.. but my concern is less with what governments do that is good than what they do which is not.. as indeed should every person.. and when I think governments do bad then I am buggered if I will shut up about it...

I am not as some would have it anti American.. anything but.. however a long time go I said on this site I am anti much of American government policy especially that as it affects other nations and peoples.. As indeed I am of my own... and as I was just a year or two ago when the party of which I am a member governed the UK.

It is not the nation I criticise, and certainly not its people. I found Americans much like Britons... kind, generous, argumentative, funny, affectionate and overall terrific company.. I also found some to be bigoted, unpleasant and nasty. But as in my own country such people were in a relatively small minority. It is much as I expected for I found the people of other countries to be much the same and while we have many differences, there are certain human traits which are shared by human beings of all nations, cultures and ethnicity.

FYI I appreciate humanity or humaneness as u put it, wherever I find it and see it.. and found Americans to be as humane as Britons..it is not the American people I have a problem with even if I disagree with many on many issues.. some sure... but not in general any more than I have a problem with those of any other nationality.. but I am a socialist, a pacifist and a humanitarian, a conservationist and environmentalist and my gripe is not with Americans, but those who rule the US and implement the policy of the US iabroad in partuclar allthough domestically as well on occasion...... how I see the world is a millions miles apart from how your rulers do.. even how most Americans do. It is what they do these rulers of yours that I object to because so much I see as destructive and selfish to the interests of humanity as a whole. The US is not alone in having my criticism... Russia, China, France, Germany, the UK and many others I view very dimly indeed.. and often more so than the US... my own country far more than I ever shall the US. But as with the US it is not the people I have a gripe with but the political elite for the pursuit of policies which are abhorrent to me, some of which which endanger the future well being of all life on this planet.

Do I wish the toppling of the political system which exists in the US? Damn right I do... but I want to see that in every country on earth so u are nothing special in that regard.. and it has nothing to do with being anti American.. merely a dream of mine because of my desire to see a better world where there is peace and tranquillity and we can share our only home without the conflict and hatreds of old and endangering our very existence..I would argue that I am being pro American because I wish Americans to find true liberty and happiness as an integral part of the world wide human family, living in fear of no one and creating fear in none and co-operating to create a world without want, without greed, without conflict.. a dream falcon.. millennia from fruition..

We can get personal and uptight or we can sit and discuss issues in a civilised way.. that is what free speech is meant to be about. I am accused of becoming emotional at times and I hold my hands up I do.. because I care about our world and Americans being a part of our world I care about them as much as I do for those people who live in my own little corner of it. I could not live with myself if I did other, I explain this to u because it needs explaining not just to u.. but others too.. I don't expect that u understand it, or agree with it, but just accept it for what it is.. a statement of why I am as I am and say what I say and do as I do...

[falcondfw]

Even though we disagree on a lot, you are a good person Fran and I enjoy debating with you and learning from you.
I got emotional on this thread for many reasons, I think.

1) I had seen a lot of USA bashing here over the last couple months and I have seen even more of it from the American news media lately.

2) The video "starred" someone I used to respect and I am disgusted at how far he has fallen or that I ever did respect him.

3) There are ways to debate. Posting a conspiracy theorist, anti-american video is not the way to start a debate on issues. It is a way of pissing people off and making a sensationalist point.

There are other reasons, as well. Maybe I am going through male menopause? lol

YOU debate, even as wrong as you usually are lol, you debate the issues and beliefs and you call a spade a spade and I have no problems with where you stand on issues. You are consistent and fair. Yes, sometimes you get emotional, but we all do. It happens. There is nothing wrong with having passion. We are diametrically opposed on many issues and you are totally wrong most of the time, but I love you anyway. lol

[Gearbox]

Newsflash. I did watch the vid. It is a blatant attempt by a washed up person and politician to stay relevant by slamming those people who believe in this country, what it stands for, and the sacrifices so many have made. And, whether Americans made the vid or not (which they did) it is only useful for one purpose. Tearing down America.

I did not say we should get to DOM the world. I pointed out some of the good we do around the world. If you cannot deal with facts, petition your government to actually lead in something. Up until Obama, we have led the world in helping people who needed it. Now, we just apologize. For everything.

Jesse, the useless, had every right to make that video. It is also my right to point out what a loser he has become.
Oh so you watched the vid, and instead of discussing the issues it brought up such as conspiracies etc, you decide to form your own conspiracy that included the presenter and attack everything non-American too. That's supposed to be a 'better' example than what Jesse does?
You don't get to edit what the rest of the world thinks of America, including Americans. That's out of your control. That's the facts.
You don't get to be an arrogant xenophobe AND claim that Jesse is a useless loser. You make him seem level headed and unbiased.

[darkeyes]

Even though we disagree on a lot, you are a good person Fran and I enjoy debating with you and learning from you.
I got emotional on this thread for many reasons, I think.

1) I had seen a lot of USA bashing here over the last couple months and I have seen even more of it from the American news media lately.

2) The video "starred" someone I used to respect and I am disgusted at how far he has fallen or that I ever did respect him.

3) There are ways to debate. Posting a conspiracy theorist, anti-american video is not the way to start a debate on issues. It is a way of pissing people off and making a sensationalist point.

There are other reasons, as well. Maybe I am going through male menopause? lol

YOU debate, even as wrong as you usually are lol, you debate the issues and beliefs and you call a spade a spade and I have no problems with where you stand on issues. You are consistent and fair. Yes, sometimes you get emotional, but we all do. It happens. There is nothing wrong with having passion. We are diametrically opposed on many issues and you are totally wrong most of the time, but I love you anyway. lol
U dont butter me up that easily falcon babes.. what u see as USA bashing, and as anti american many see as valid and justifiable questioning and criticism of how things are.. ur stance is peculiarly right wing. U have ur opinions that's fine... but u also have ur blind spots and one is that many people question and criticise what ur country does around the world out of hate.. mostly they dont.. some do, but not most. Simply because we are not American doesn't mean we say things just to bash the US or anywhere else for that matter.

I have often been called unpatriotic and even treacherous for what I have said about my own country, because of the beliefs I hold and the things I have done by people here who think as u in the UK, who cannot see past loyalty to country and do not question enough what their governments do.. execpt at times when the party which is not of their particular political flavour is in power.. and even then not quite so much when it comes to foreign policy issues... when I am accused of being ungrateful for what it has done for me. I am not patriotic.. the things I believe in do not allow for patriotism. As for treacherous, if I acted, argued and took any other stance my treachery would be to myself and the principles I espouse and in which I believe. My humanity does not allow me the dubious luxury of patriotism. Patriotism breeds hatred and xenophobia and makes it nice and easy for governments to send a nation's people out to war to slaughter and be slaughtered in the name of "right" and "their way of life" and to be suspicious and even oppress others within and without a nation and divide the people from their friends and neighbours.

As to being ungrateful, I was born where I was born and live where I live and will live nowhere else such is my love of the country in which I was born. I am neither grateful or ungrateful for what that country has given me, but I am enormously grateful for much of what the people of my country, past and present have given me through their sacrifice, but equally also very critical of much if not more of it too because of what I see as lack of vision and often selfishness and foten wrong headedness. A double edged sword I suppose. In the way I believe any who sees her society as being nowhere near the kind of society she would like to see should be should think.

Is the vid anti american? No.. it is anti a particular view of America. Debate is often begun by a single question. It does not mean that the originator of the question is anti a particular view. It is called playing devil's advocate.. an common enough practice with which to begin debate. The makers of the vid and the originator of this thread may well think that the US leaves a great deal to be desired.. in this they are right it does.. many people believe what I say, believe and do also leaves much to be desired and in thiis I agree it almost certainly does.. I am but a flawed human being, just as the US as a nation is a very flawed place... what I say and think, what I do is up for criticism at any time. Just as the activities of the US or any other country are up for criticism at any time.

Thin-ness of skin is something human beings have especially when challenged about things they care most about... sometimes I also have a thin skin and do get emotional and prickly about what people say.. but I would never accuse them of Fran bashing, just as u should not that people are merely America bashing. Because while I sometimes do display thin-ness of skin, it is not nearly as thin as it was a few years ago and have learned more and better how to debate properly and deal with criticism, and I hope deal with it and debate it fairly. People have beliefs that mean a great deal to them and often they are wrong. Often however they are not wrong, but sometimes thin-ness of skin born of what u would call patriotism and love of country makes some people because of their ability to debate properly to endeavour to discredit by accusing those who are genuinely concerned and have a justifiable grievance or valid view.. most people love their country more in the manner of u than I. Most have patriotic feelings, and few would concur with my view.

Many argue logically and fairly for their view but also recognise that there is much to be said for the criticisms which others make of their country or whatever other belief they hold. They recognise that there is much in the criticisms. They recognise that others both in and out of their country are not simply bashing their country but do have views which may be wrong, are often anything but and these things they take on board.. they do not get uptight and just want to kill debate... many things in life are uncomfortable to hear..about us personally, about the things we believe in, the people we love and care most for... our country which we love and care about.. but to close debate and discussion, and to turn our ears deaf, or to be offended and react in negative ways is not a good thing. How else can we make things better if we close our ears to what others say with their closed minds born of what I would say is misguided love and loyalty? How else do we prevent conflict if we do not listen to the real concerns of those who see us and our countries as doing.. being wrong and recognise that they have valid and justifiable concerns? How else do we make things better?

[falcondfw]

Oh so you watched the vid, and instead of discussing the issues it brought up such as conspiracies etc, you decide to form your own conspiracy that included the presenter and attack everything non-American too. That's supposed to be a 'better' example than what Jesse does?
You don't get to edit what the rest of the world thinks of America, including Americans. That's out of your control. That's the facts.
You don't get to be an arrogant xenophobe AND claim that Jesse is a useless loser. You make him seem level headed and unbiased.

Gear,
First, I am not a xenophobe. But I don't need to justify that to you or anyone else. I don't legitimize personal attacks.
Second, as for Jesse, he was tossed out of office on his ear in Minnesota because he was extremely innefective. Even as a wrestler, he was more mouth than substance.
Third, I am not trying to edit what the rest of the world says. I do listen. I know we are not perfect, but how about a little balance. We screw up a lot, but we also do a lot of good around the world. I see plenty of people rushing to scream how evil the USA is when we screw up, but I see no one thanking us our appreciating us for the good things we do. If there were more balance in the way people post about the USA, I probably would not be so defensive.

[falcondfw]

And Fran, I was not buttering you up. I really do enjoy debating things with you and learning from you. We may have opposite views on most things, but it is interesting to find out why people think the way they do.

As I said to Gear, I recognize we screw up and those issues need to be questioned. However, we also do a lot of good and I almost never see anyone thanking us or appreciating us when we do well. A little balance goes a long way.

[void()]

Third, I am not trying to edit what the rest of the world says. I do listen. I know we are not perfect, but how about a little balance. If there were more balance in the way people post about the USA, I probably would not be so defensive.

Sorry, sounds like editing what anyone else says, and only hearing what you want to hear.

I have asked some valid questions. Where is the empirical proof/s of 9/11, for one? Where is the empirical proof/s that disprove what the video eludes to? That is another valid question.

You've not responded satisfactorily, instead you say my questions and opinions are bullshit. You have lost a great deal of respect I had for you. I have demonstrated that respect by remaining civil, polite with you. You choose closing up like this, I'll choose being less civil.

I am not saying my way is correct, or that what the video eludes to is correct. I'm asking for it be disproved. It is a statement which brings to light some bits of fact into a theory, a guess at what may be or to come. Can you provide a valid counter argument aside from calling my views bullshit?

[falcondfw]

Sorry, sounds like editing what anyone else says, and only hearing what you want to hear.

I have asked some valid questions. Where is the empirical proof/s of 9/11, for one? Where is the empirical proof/s that disprove what the video eludes to? That is another valid question.

You've not responded satisfactorily, instead you say my questions and opinions are bullshit. You have lost a great deal of respect I had for you. I have demonstrated that respect by remaining civil, polite with you. You choose closing up like this, I'll choose being less civil.

I am not saying my way is correct, or that what the video eludes to is correct. I'm asking for it be disproved. It is a statement which brings to light some bits of fact into a theory, a guess at what may be or to come. Can you provide a valid counter argument aside from calling my views bullshit?

Void,
There really is no kind way to say this, so i will just say it. I am not hear to earn anybody's respect or to be liked.
You want proof of 9/11? How about the 3,000 dead? Or maybe the giant hole in the ground in Shankesville? Or maybe the side of the Pentagon that went up in smoke? If that was an acting job, it is the last acting job 3,000 people will ever have.
I watched the planes hit the twin towers. My cousin's wife was actually supposed to be on the flight from Logan (Boston) that hit one of the towers. Fortunately, her son decided to dilly dally and take his time getting ready for school, so she had to reschedule for a later flight.
Finally, there are a ton of documentaries out there. I'm sure some of them are on youtube. They go over each of the conspiracy theories and disprove them using science and physics and math. They explain why the towers collapsed and the Pentagon.

[darkeyes]

However, we also do a lot of good and I almost never see anyone thanking us or appreciating us when we do well. A little balance goes a long way.
A little balance does... but to achieve balance we must not stifle debate and we should allow those of either side to say their bit freely and not be accused of bashing simply because they happen to disagree with our view. To close our eyes and ears to how others think and feel however much we loathe what they say is a dangerous thing but it is for just such a thing that patriotism and claims of (name ur country or ur cause) bashing exist and which serve only to crush free and open debate and prevent the revelation of knowledge with which people can more sensibly and without hatred debate issues and which so often has led people like ignorant lambs to the slaughter... often their own... in pursuit of the aims of the nasty and in defence of things which they would otherwise be appalled by.

[void()]

1. If that was an acting job, it is the last acting job 3,000 people will ever have.

2. Finally, there are a ton of documentaries out there. I'm sure some of them are on youtube. They go over each of the conspiracy theories and disprove them using science and physics and math. They explain why the towers collapsed and the Pentagon.

1. You're conflating something I said. I said bin Laden was probably an actor, not the alleged three or thirty thousand so called victims. If you want to discuss and debate, do not conflate what I say, especially when all I need do is quote my post which contains what I said.


Funny, don't recall mocking anyone. I'm asking for iron clad proof that the President of the U.S. at the time stated was available. I'm asking why there was no world court and publicly open trial held. No, we just look for a decade for a guy likely to have been busy with acting gigs, then shoot him and dump him overboard. And I'm mocking?

Emphasis added to clarify for you. No where in that statement do I accuse the alleged victims of acting. Do not say I did.

2. Seen plenty of youtube videos proving it was an inside job, saw one made by an independent engineer whom found traces of demolitions grade, or better nano-thermite in the dust.

3. You're still sidestepping the questions by logical fallacy, appeal to authority or common opinion. I am saying there were, still are valid points meriting question. I have formed valid and rational questions. You sidestepping does not answer those questions, nor does it offer valid evidence to disprove the video in question, posted by the OP.

Here are those questions emphasized so you can see them.


Where is the empirical proof/s of 9/11, for one?

Where is the empirical proof/s that disprove what the video eludes to? That is another valid question.

I am not saying my way is correct, or that what the video eludes to is correct. I'm asking for it be disproved. It is a statement which brings to light some bits of fact into a theory, a guess at what may be or to come.

Can you provide a valid counter argument aside from calling my views bullshit?

I also have asked with others, where are the flight recorders from those flights? They have recovered every other flight recorder from every other crash incident, why not these? If they have recovered them, why is the public kept in the dark concerning any data on them?

All of these are valid and rational questions that anyone with even half a brain could think to pose. For you to call them bullshit and sidestep answering is in itself ludicrous if not offensive, not only to me. But go ahead, swallow the official line. We all know who has hooks in you.

4. Before it gets twisted into what you may or may not be implying, I am not denying 9/11 happened. I am saying the official myth and story leave wide open questions, big holes that have no explanations. When novelists write novels, they have to ensure the story does not have these sorts of holes. Otherwise, readers or audiences cannot suspend disbelief in order to believe the story. The official 9/11 story, is a story and it is one riddled with holes.

You're touting that story as the be all end all. Sorry, I don't buy that story. I have questions regarding it. You say you got proof that story is right. I'm saying, okay spill your proof.

[tenni]

"Up until Obama, we have led the world in helping people who needed it. Now, we just apologize. For everything."

Uh...well you may want to start with this type of belief. It just is not true at all based upon factors that you may be not considering. The US has had foreign aid connected to politics just like most of the Western World. The deeds done by the US prior to Obama are many and all are not good. In fact, many have been detrimental to other societies. The number of countries that have had their leader "removed" by covert actions of the US need to be factored in to what you think are good deeds to those who are in need.

"I am not trying to edit what the rest of the world says. I do listen. I know we are not perfect, but how about a little balance. We screw up a lot, but we also do a lot of good around the world. I see plenty of people rushing to scream how evil the USA is when we screw up, but I see no one thanking us our appreciating us for the good things we do. If there were more balance in the way people post about the USA, I probably would not be so defensive."

I think that the point of this thread is about freedom in your country and whether it is a fact or fiction. It is not about the US being treated in a balanced manner internationally. I've read a few people from the US make similar comments that they do not feel appreciated as a country. The point that you feel defensive and you realize that your country has screwed up is important. This seems to be about the US citizen's feeling of worthiness from what you have posted.

There is no act of contrition from your society as to what it has done in the world. There seems to be justification offered. The mythology that the US must be number one and all of the emotionalism connected to that. Do you see that as a good trait in your country? It is a bit like freedom. It seems like a mantra.

It will take decades and decades for the US to be "forgiven" for some of its sins. Hiroshima and Nagasagi are two. The Viet Nam War, the invasion of Iraq. Hundreds and hundreds of US military occupation as bases etc. throughout the world are not good signs of a peaceful nation. There are many reasons why people outside of your country do not give you what you think should be balance. However, I do see you point and I think that some of us do wipe out the "good" intent of some of the US people. I think that some in the world do look too hard towards the US to solve militarily nasty political situations in the world. The fact that the US is so reluctant to have its military under the control of the UN is not good if the country's intent is good. It is about control and not co operation at times.

[chook]

FIGHT YA BASTARDS.........i HATE PEACE

Cheers Chook :yikes2:

[pepperjack]

1. You're conflating something I said. I said bin Laden was probably an actor, not the alleged three or thirty thousand so called victims. If you want to discuss and debate, do not conflate what I say, especially when all I need do is quote my post which contains what I said.



Emphasis added to clarify for you. No where in that statement do I accuse the alleged victims of acting. Do not say I did.

2. Seen plenty of youtube videos proving it was an inside job, saw one made by an independent engineer whom found traces of demolitions grade, or better nano-thermite in the dust.

3. You're still sidestepping the questions by logical fallacy, appeal to authority or common opinion. I am saying there were, still are valid points meriting question. I have formed valid and rational questions. You sidestepping does not answer those questions, nor does it offer valid evidence to disprove the video in question, posted by the OP.

Here are those questions emphasized so you can see them.



I also have asked with others, where are the flight recorders from those flights? They have recovered every other flight recorder from every other crash incident, why not these? If they have recovered them, why is the public kept in the dark concerning any data on them?

All of these are valid and rational questions that anyone with even half a brain could think to pose. For you to call them bullshit and sidestep answering is in itself ludicrous if not offensive, not only to me. But go ahead, swallow the official line. We all know who has hooks in you.

4. Before it gets twisted into what you may or may not be implying, I am not denying 9/11 happened. I am saying the official myth and story leave wide open questions, big holes that have no explanations. When novelists write novels, they have to ensure the story does not have these sorts of holes. Otherwise, readers or audiences cannot suspend disbelief in order to believe the story. The official 9/11 story, is a story and it is one riddled with holes.

You're touting that story as the be all end all. Sorry, I don't buy that story. I have questions regarding it. You say you got proof that story is right. I'm saying, okay spill your proof.


Void, for what it's worth, I agree with you that there are holes in the story, questions raised & unanswered, legitimate questions. The latest wrinkle in the saga is this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2195606/No-Easy-Day-Ex-Navy-SEAL-says-book-Osama-bin-Ladens-death-political.html?ITO=1490
which I'm sure you're probably aware of. Sat on my porch awhile ago, winding down with a beer, during a much needed late summer gentle rain; after a few minutes I began to detect the tell-tale odor of a skunk in the neighborhood; not too surprising this time of night with fall approaching. Point is, this occurred while I was pondering your post to which I'm responding; made me think of the expression..."something smells rotten in Denmark." ;)

[void()]

Void, for what it's worth, I agree with you that there are holes in the story, questions raised & unanswered, legitimate questions. The latest wrinkle in the saga is this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2195606/No-Easy-Day-Ex-Navy-SEAL-says-book-Osama-bin-Ladens-death-political.html?ITO=1490
which I'm sure you're probably aware of. Sat on my porch awhile ago, winding down with a beer, during a much needed late summer gentle rain; after a few minutes I began to detect the tell-tale odor of a skunk in the neighborhood; not too surprising this time of night with fall approaching. Point is, this occurred while I was pondering your post to which I'm responding; made me think of the expression..."something smells rotten in Denmark." ;)

Was aware he was identified. Feel strongly he should have never been identified. He's right, it's not political. It's about people having common decency, sense. The term 'No Easy Day' suggests to me that he did not view the mission as honorable. Part of the indoctrination of SEALS focuses on 'just another running day, easy day all the way' as evidenced in the cadence. They are taught to be proud, dignified because they do hard work, honorable work. I was around where some of these fellows trained. You always felt good knowing them, felt their infectious pride and sense of honor. Quiet guys too, really still quiet.

Sorry to hear of your odorous visitor. Saw a little turtle on my walk today. It appeared to have have came up out of the now filled creek to bask in dry ground. Probably was hunting bugs, grass. Thought of bringing it in to show my nephews. Talked and thought myself out of that. Sadly, these boys got no sense of such things and I'm not the poppa. Always feel made to be some lower classed scum for trying by their poppa. I play nice, though.

You're correct, Denmark is pretty rife. I'm sure you've seen the movie Aliens 2 and understand me saying I think Hicks is right. "Get this ship in orbit, nuke 'em, it's the only way." And to allay suspicion, allegations, I am using sarcasm here and joking in a manner as to mildly vent frustration. I have no intentions of detonation of any bomb, nuclear or otherwise. I added emphasis for those whom might not be literate, or have selective comprehension skills, skip over major points selectively. Pepper, if that comes over as me choosing to appear an asshole, apologies.

Be nice if some of those questions were answered. I have been nice, still am trying to be. I'm reasonably calm, rational apparently thanks to pepper's confirmation of that. At least I'm not alone in asking some of these same questions. That says something.

Of course, I get a notion these questions will remain unanswered for a very long time. It happened with J.F.K, Martin Luther Jr., bound to be 'business as usual'.

[darkeyes]

Void, for what it's worth, I agree with you that there are holes in the story, questions raised & unanswered, legitimate questions. The latest wrinkle in the saga is this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2195606/No-Easy-Day-Ex-Navy-SEAL-says-book-Osama-bin-Ladens-death-political.html?ITO=1490
which I'm sure you're probably aware of. Sat on my porch awhile ago, winding down with a beer, during a much needed late summer gentle rain; after a few minutes I began to detect the tell-tale odor of a skunk in the neighborhood; not too surprising this time of night with fall approaching. Point is, this occurred while I was pondering your post to which I'm responding; made me think of the expression..."something smells rotten in Denmark." ;)The quotation from Willie Shakespeare's 'Hamlet' is actually " Something is rotten in the state of Denmark" and is uttered by a relatively minor character as an observation and concern not that Denmark stinks, but that among the hierarchy (the state) much was not well and was rotten, and that if there is corruption at the top in time this will permeate down through the entire state. Quite an acute observation by the bard.. and quite pertinent in a sense to this discussion (the thread.. not so much ur lil spat with Voidie);).

Horatio's reply to Marcellus who uttered the quote should please u, Pepper.. he replied "Heaven will direct it" meaning that divine intervention will set things to rights in time.. u know what I think of that.. *laffs* but it is a recognition and belief that in time things will be corrected. the quotes were made at the sight of Hamlet's murdered father's ghost...a representation if u like of what had been of happier and more honest times, when the state was not corrupt and guided by honest and safe hands. There are other parts of the play which make observations of what is wrong with the state, and the play is a good illustration of how and why states go bad. Our Willie may have died almost 400 years ago but much of his writing is as fresh and relevant as the day it was written if we care to learn the messages and lessons he relays to us.:bigrin:

[void()]

Our Willie may have died almost 400 years ago but much of his writing is as fresh and relevant as the day it was written if we care to learn the messages and lessons he relays to us.:bigrin:

I've always like _Tempest_ as it brings a sense of _Everyman (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/everyman.asp)_ to light.

[pepperjack]

The quotation from Willie Shakespeare's 'Hamlet' is actually " Something is rotten in the state of Denmark" and is uttered by a relatively minor character as an observation and concern not that Denmark stinks, but that among the hierarchy (the state) much was not well and was rotten, and that if there is corruption at the top in time this will permeate down through the entire state. Quite an acute observation by the bard.. and quite pertinent in a sense to this discussion (the thread.. not so much ur lil spat with Voidie);).

Horatio's reply to Marcellus who uttered the quote should please u, Pepper.. he replied "Heaven will direct it" meaning that divine intervention will set things to rights in time.. u know what I think of that.. *laffs* but it is a recognition and belief that in time things will be corrected. the quotes were made at the sight of Hamlet's murdered father's ghost...a representation if u like of what had been of happier and more honest times, when the state was not corrupt and guided by honest and safe hands. There are other parts of the play which make observations of what is wrong with the state, and the play is a good illustration of how and why states go bad. Our Willie may have died almost 400 years ago but much of his writing is as fresh and relevant as the day it was written if we care to learn the messages and lessons he relays to us.:bigrin:


I had a feeling I wasn't quoting that quite accurately. Interesting to discover it originated with Shakespeare. I know it's metaphorical, inferring there's something fishy going on and that's how I meant it, in the context of political corruption. Yes, the thread, Dark. Had absolutely nothing to do with my " lil spat with Voidie." There are times when we do get along. :coolblue:

[pepperjack]

Was aware he was identified. Feel strongly he should have never been identified. He's right, it's not political. It's about people having common decency, sense. The term 'No Easy Day' suggests to me that he did not view the mission as honorable. Part of the indoctrination of SEALS focuses on 'just another running day, easy day all the way' as evidenced in the cadence. They are taught to be proud, dignified because they do hard work, honorable work. I was around where some of these fellows trained. You always felt good knowing them, felt their infectious pride and sense of honor. Quiet guys too, really still quiet.

Sorry to hear of your odorous visitor. Saw a little turtle on my walk today. It appeared to have have came up out of the now filled creek to bask in dry ground. Probably was hunting bugs, grass. Thought of bringing it in to show my nephews. Talked and thought myself out of that. Sadly, these boys got no sense of such things and I'm not the poppa. Always feel made to be some lower classed scum for trying by their poppa. I play nice, though.

You're correct, Denmark is pretty rife. I'm sure you've seen the movie Aliens 2 and understand me saying I think Hicks is right. "Get this ship in orbit, nuke 'em, it's the only way." And to allay suspicion, allegations, I am using sarcasm here and joking in a manner as to mildly vent frustration. I have no intentions of detonation of any bomb, nuclear or otherwise. I added emphasis for those whom might not be literate, or have selective comprehension skills, skip over major points selectively. Pepper, if that comes over as me choosing to appear an asshole, apologies.

Be nice if some of those questions were answered. I have been nice, still am trying to be. I'm reasonably calm, rational apparently thanks to pepper's confirmation of that. At least I'm not alone in asking some of these same questions. That says something.

Of course, I get a notion these questions will remain unanswered for a very long time. It happened with J.F.K, Martin Luther Jr., bound to be 'business as usual'.


Void, I've actually seen your point more often than you're aware of; I agree with your summation here also.

[void()]

Void, I've actually seen your point more often than you're aware of; I agree with your summation here also.

Still say I get bad cop, you get good. At least until you can pour me a decent shot of rum without chicken bones. *grins and is joking a bit*

[goldenfinger]

You're correct, Denmark is pretty rife. I'm sure you've seen the movie Aliens 2 and understand me saying I think Hicks is right. "Get this ship in orbit, nuke 'em, it's the only way." And to allay suspicion, allegations, I am using sarcasm here and joking in a manner as to mildly vent frustration. I have no intentions of detonation of any bomb, nuclear or otherwise. I added emphasis for those whom might not be literate, or have selective comprehension skills, skip over major points selectively. Pepper, if that comes over as me choosing to appear an asshole, apologies.

"You'r correct, Denmark is pretty rife'

What did you mean by that? Void

[eitherway<3]

FICTION. Simple.

[void()]

You're correct, Denmark is pretty rife. I'm sure you've seen the movie Aliens 2 and understand me saying I think Hicks is right. "Get this ship in orbit, nuke 'em, it's the only way." And to allay suspicion, allegations, I am using sarcasm here and joking in a manner as to mildly vent frustration. I have no intentions of detonation of any bomb, nuclear or otherwise. I added emphasis for those whom might not be literate, or have selective comprehension skills, skip over major points selectively. Pepper, if that comes over as me choosing to appear an asshole, apologies.

"You'r correct, Denmark is pretty rife'

What did you mean by that? Void

I meant that a lot here in the U.S. is not always as it seems, that I believe there is a lot foul at present. I meant that such foulness stinks, akin to Mr. Shakespeare's mentioned Denmark from the play Hamlet. I mean I can notice that there are lots of fictions in and about America. I mean I feel we, America, are no longer The Dream.

[pepperjack]

I meant that a lot here in the U.S. is not always as it seems, that I believe there is a lot foul at present. I meant that such foulness stinks, akin to Mr. Shakespeare's mentioned Denmark from the play Hamlet. I mean I can notice that there are lots of fictions in and about America. I mean I feel we, America, are no longer The Dream.

My first real wake up call that something was seriously amiss here was the Kennedy assassination. I was an impressionable 10 year old in grade school and up until then, America was mom, apple pie, Norman Rockwell paintings & hot dogs on the 4th of July. I have a vivid memory of standing alone on the playground after school one gray, gloomy November day in front of the American flag at half-mast with my right hand placed over my heart because those were the days when the Lord's Prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance still ushered in the school day. I can remember feeling extremely sad and also a feeling of questioning and despair. Naturally, the day of the funeral, school was canceled. On that day, I can remember sitting alone in front of the tv, watching the iconic image of John-John bravely saluting the coffin containing his father passing by. I was a basket case; very emotional! To this day, I'm glad I was alone. We all have defining moments in our memories, our lives. This was one of mine.

[void()]

My first real wake up call that something was seriously amiss here was the Kennedy assassination. I was an impressionable 10 year old in grade school and up until then, America was mom, apple pie, Norman Rockwell paintings & hot dogs on the 4th of July. I have a vivid memory of standing alone on the playground after school one gray, gloomy November day in front of the American flag at half-mast with my right hand placed over my heart because those were the days when the Lord's Prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance still ushered in the school day. I can remember feeling extremely sad and also a feeling of questioning and despair. Naturally, the day of the funeral, school was canceled. On that day, I can remember sitting alone in front of the tv, watching the iconic image of John-John bravely saluting the coffin containing his father passing by. I was a basket case; very emotional! To this day, I'm glad I was alone. We all have defining moments in our memories, our lives. This was one of mine.

I recall showmeguy in chat mentioning the Whiskey Rebellion. Had been disillusioned since about 1994-95. Being pointed to the Whiskey Rebellion helped explain a lot for me. Sure, I may be a touch mentally ill but nowhere as much as I once thought. Even so, I can now understand more fully why. Granted this one historical incident is not fully responsible, it does have great bearing however.

Sit here now a Southern gentleman and am debating having loathing for Northerners, or just federalist. In as much as the Civil War was not about slavery, it was, just in a different form than most recognize. Slavery is still slavery. Oppression is oppression. The federalists used debt for the Revolutionary War as means of consolidating all national debt and then, establishing The Federal Reserve. It's enough to instill a desire to print my own money and use it, legally.

America ought to still be a collective sovereign. Alas, here we are. Apologies too, pepper. Look on a dollar bill back, there's our nation's God for you. Guess something I saw in a series show called Sharpe's Brigade has started making sense. "Put a rag on a stick, tell your men it's your flag and they'll all gladly die for it." They can go knock on another door, I'm not answering any more.

[darkeyes]

I recall showmeguy in chat mentioning the Whiskey Rebellion. Had been disillusioned since about 1994-95. Being pointed to the Whiskey Rebellion helped explain a lot for me. Sure, I may be a touch mentally ill but nowhere as much as I once thought. Even so, I can now understand more fully why. Granted this one historical incident is not fully responsible, it does have great bearing however.

Sit here now a Southern gentleman and am debating having loathing for Northerners, or just federalist. In as much as the Civil War was not about slavery, it was, just in a different form than most recognize. Slavery is still slavery. Oppression is oppression. The federalists used debt for the Revolutionary War as means of consolidating all national debt and then, establishing The Federal Reserve. It's enough to instill a desire to print my own money and use it, legally.

America ought to still be a collective sovereign. Alas, here we are. Apologies too, pepper. Look on a dollar bill back, there's our nation's God for you. Guess something I saw in a series show called Sharpe's Brigade has started making sense. "Put a rag on a stick, tell your men it's your flag and they'll all gladly die for it." They can go knock on another door, I'm not answering any more.A few years ago I used the quote "rag on a pole" in a debate about patriotism on .com... once upon a time when Fran was young daft and very bisexual she fancied the drawers off Sean Bean and so even if the telly series was not her cup of tea... he was always worth a look and a lust.... it caused quite a stooshie I seem to recall but I agree with ur sentiments Voidie, without reservation... the following is the close of the same scene to which u refer...

Major Hogan (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0004051/): Surprised to see me, Richard? Well you've done a grand job, a grand job. But now, at dawn tomorrow, with the help of my agent Commandante Teresa, who I believe you've met, I want you to seize the chapel at Torre Castro and hold it against all comers until Major Vivar has raised the gonfalon of Santiago over the chapel roof.
Richard Sharpe (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000293/): Seize Torre Castro? With six men and a straggle of Spaniards? Can't be done! May I remind you of our main mission, sir? To find a missing gentleman?
Major Hogan (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0004051/): Not now, Richard. Our mission is Torre Castro. Spain is a sleeping tiger! If the people of Torre Castro rise up, even for an hour, the shock will shake the whole of Spain. Carry on, sir.
Richard Sharpe (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000293/): Rise up? Do you really believe men will fight and die for a rag on a pole?
Major Hogan (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0004051/): You do, Richard, you do.

"Sharp's Rifles" 1993 from the Telly Series "Sharp"

[Long Duck Dong]

Guess something I saw in a series show called Sharpe's Brigade has started making sense. "Put a rag on a stick, tell your men it's your flag and they'll all gladly die for it." They can go knock on another door, I'm not answering any more.

it takes a wise man to understand the true meaning behind the words..... its a way of saying give a man a reason to fight and he will fight until the death cos of that reason, yet ask him how he really feels about the reason and most men would look at you and not really be able to give a answer.....so they roll out some generic answer until you stop them, get them to really think about themselves and what they believe in themselves, and you find that most men do not actually fight for a flag at all.....

void, its just a different type of battle on a different battlefield, but the same fight by a different name........ there are times that a person will fight for what they believe in... and then a day will come when they realise the truth ( whatever their truth is ) and begin to fight to believe in what they once fought for......

you know what you fight for now, the question is why do you ????

I have blood on my hands cos I fought for what I believed in, which was my right to protect myself, my family, my property...then I started to fight for the rights of others, their right to be treated equally.... now I do not really fight for anything, including LGBT rights, cos I am tired of being kicked in the guts by the communities that I have fought for... and I am tired of being told that I do not belong with the people I have fought so hard for.......

to quote something from the movie * we were soldiers *

Joseph Galloway (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001608/): Some had families waiting, for others their only family would be the men they bled beside, there were no bands, flags no honor guards to welcome them home, they went to war because their country ordered them to, but in the end they fought not for country or their flag, they fought for each other
Joseph Galloway (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001608/): We who have seen war will never stop seeing it, in the silence of the night we will always hear the screams. So this is our story... For we were soldiers once and young.

give a man a rag on a stick, tell them its their flag and they will all gladly die for it....... give a man a friend, a buddy, a mate, a family and you give them a reason to live and keep fighting cos that is what we truly fight for... those whom we believe in...

[void()]

A few years ago I used the quote "rag on a pole" in a debate about patriotism on .com... once upon a time when Fran was young daft and very bisexual she fancied the drawers off Sean Bean and so even if the telly series was not her cup of tea... he was always worth a look and a lust.... it caused quite a stooshie I seem to recall but I agree with ur sentiments Voidie, without reservation... the following is the close of the same scene to which u refer...

Major Hogan (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0004051/): Surprised to see me, Richard? Well you've done a grand job, a grand job. But now, at dawn tomorrow, with the help of my agent Commandante Teresa, who I believe you've met, I want you to seize the chapel at Torre Castro and hold it against all comers until Major Vivar has raised the gonfalon of Santiago over the chapel roof.
Richard Sharpe (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000293/): Seize Torre Castro? With six men and a straggle of Spaniards? Can't be done! May I remind you of our main mission, sir? To find a missing gentleman?
Major Hogan (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0004051/): Not now, Richard. Our mission is Torre Castro. Spain is a sleeping tiger! If the people of Torre Castro rise up, even for an hour, the shock will shake the whole of Spain. Carry on, sir.
Richard Sharpe (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000293/): Rise up? Do you really believe men will fight and die for a rag on a pole?
Major Hogan (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0004051/): You do, Richard, you do.

"Sharp's Rifles" 1993 from the Telly Series "Sharp"





Fran: Exactly the scene and am glad someone understands.
LDD: No, I'm not fighting any more. Like you I do not see any point to fight. Will defend self and family, beyond that not too bothered. Hell might even miss defending us, your time is your time. Not much anyone can do about that.